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View Full Version : Knowshon vs. Beanie


Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 08:38 AM
I spent the morning watching film of these two runners. I would definitely want Moreno for the Broncos over Chris Wells for a whole bunch of reasons.

First thing you notice; The competition. OSU's Oline is slicing through those Big Ten Ds like a knife through butter. In run after run after run, Wells isn't touched until he gets to the secondary. The tackling is horrible. It's just one Big Ten stooge after another lying down. There are a few runs where the hole gets stuffed and he does a good job of escaping, using his speed to get around the backside, but Moreno in the same spot does just as well, usually with just a few moves. Wells benefits big time from the team he's on. He's a big guy who is fast and runs in straight lines, relying on his team to make the holes for him. And man, they do.

In film after film of Moreno, he is facing tough, SEC competition. He's getting holes, but they aren't big and they close fast. The Ds he is facing are up on his ass twice as fast as what you see in the Beanie films. Some of Moreno's best highlights are against Alabama and LSU. Beanie's are against Wisconsin and Michigan. Moreno is working harder to get downfield. He makes moves in the holes that cut him free. He's got great spins, great stop-and-go, and can also just bull into the DBs, carrying players with him. He's got fast, shifty feet plus strength. Wells seems to be just solid power and straight-line speed.

The second thing that stands out is the passing. Moreno is catching passes from every angle; Pitch outs, screens, bullets out on the flat, shots over the middle, even a couple of downfield fades from Stafford. In all the Beanie films I could find, he doesn't catch a single pass. Not so much as a single screen. Of course, with that Oline and the competition he's playing against, why take the risk on passing when you can just hand it to him and let him go? It really makes you wonder how much of Stafford's success is made by Moreno.

Lastly, just as a general rule of thumb, I would always draft the SEC player over the Big Ten player. It's pretty clear from the film that Moreno is the more complete back. He's going to give the team he goes to many more options. Hell, I'll bet he could go out of the slot. That would screw with a D's head. The Broncos' roster is already overloaded with big guys who run fast in a straight line. Would Beanie be a big improvement over Hillis? They both have the same style, but Hillis has proved it in the pros. I wonder how Beanie reacts when the holes aren't so big and the LBs are a whole lot bigger? Besides, the Broncos have had very good luck with RBs from Georgia. ;D

If the Broncos decide to go RB in the first (I hope they don't, but go D instead) they should take Moreno over Wells.

gyldenlove
04-05-2009, 08:48 AM
I have Knowshon over Beanie for a number of reasons.

I don't think we need another big guy who can get 4 yards, but will never threaten to take it deep.

We have no need for a guy who can't catch a ball to save his life.

Our offensive line is better at pass blocking than run blocking, so we need a runner who can make it happen on his own like Hillis does, I think Knowshon is better at that.

On the whole, I would prefer Donald Brown or Andre Brown to any of these 2.

lex
04-05-2009, 08:52 AM
I spent the morning watching film of these two runners. I would definitely want Moreno for the Broncos over Chris Wells for a whole bunch of reasons.

First thing you notice; The competition. OSU's Oline is slicing through those Big Ten Ds like a knife through butter. In run after run after run, Wells isn't touched until he gets to the secondary. The tackling is horrible. It's just one Big Ten stooge after another lying down. There are a few runs where the hole gets stuffed and he does a good job of escaping, using his speed to get around the backside, but Moreno in the same spot does just as well, usually with just a few moves. Wells benefits big time from the team he's on. He's a big guy who is fast and runs in straight lines, relying on his team to make the holes for him. And man, they do.

In film after film of Moreno, he is facing tough, SEC competition. He's getting holes, but they aren't big and they close fast. The Ds he is facing are up on his ass twice as fast as what you see in the Beanie films. Some of Moreno's best highlights are against Alabama and LSU. Beanie's are against Wisconsin and Michigan. Moreno is working harder to get downfield. He makes moves in the holes that cut him free. He's got great spins, great stop-and-go, and can also just bull into the DBs, carrying players with him. He's got fast, shifty feet plus strength. Wells seems to be just solid power and straight-line speed.

The second thing that stands out is the passing. Moreno is catching passes from every angle; Pitch outs, screens, bullets out on the flat, shots over the middle, even a couple of downfield fades from Stafford. In all the Beanie films I could find, he doesn't catch a single pass. Not so much as a single screen. Of course, with that Oline and the competition he's playing against, why take the risk on passing when you can just hand it to him and let him go? It really makes you wonder how much of Stafford's success is made by Moreno.

Lastly, just as a general rule of thumb, I would always draft the SEC player over the Big Ten player. It's pretty clear from the film that Moreno is the more complete back. He's going to give the team he goes to many more options. Hell, I'll bet he could go out of the slot. That would screw with a D's head. The Broncos' roster is already overloaded with big guys who run fast in a straight line. Would Beanie be a big improvement over Hillis? They both have the same style, but Hillis has proved it in the pros. I wonder how Beanie reacts when the holes aren't so big and the LBs are a whole lot bigger? Besides, the Broncos have had very good luck with RBs from Georgia. ;D

If the Broncos decide to go RB in the first (I hope they don't, but go D instead) they should take Moreno over Wells.

Thats nice.

I think this has been discussed before.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 08:54 AM
Thats nice.

I think this has been discussed before.

Damn, I took you off iggy to read this. I knew it would be a mistake.

lex
04-05-2009, 08:55 AM
Damn, I took you off iggy to read this. I knew it would be a mistake.


Id rather you have me on. That way I dont have to see your worthless replies.

ohiobronco2
04-05-2009, 10:48 AM
I would rather have Beanie. Let me start off by saying that I am naturally a little biased and have not watched a tremoundous amount of film on Moreno. I've seen his highlights on Youtube, but that is about it. People naturally pick on the Big Ten and point out the terrible D's, Moreno was held to 62 yards on 23 carries against Mich St. in their bowl game. Beanie ran for 140 yards on 31 carries against Mich St. Beanie torched Michigan for 3 years and you make think that their D is terrible, but he has racked up yards against Alan Branch, Leon Hall, Lamar Woodley, Shawn Crable, Tim Jamison, Terrance Taylor, Will Johnson and Brandon Graham. All guys who will play in the NFL. Also, Beanie played VERY WELL against a tough LSU defense in the national championship game from a few years ago.

The only real knock on Beanie is his durability and at his size, I'd worry about the hammy getting pulled on a regular basis. Also, I've heard rumblings here in the Columbus area that he doesn't like to practice. I can say that Beanie is bigger, faster, in my opinion has better feet, will be better at picking up first downs in short yardage situations and is a homerun threat. Moreno looks to be more comfortable as a receiver, but then again, OSU doesn't throw too many passed to their RB's. I don't want either at 12, maybe 18 now that we will need to have a better run game.

mhgaffney
04-05-2009, 10:50 AM
For once I agree with Rohirrim.

Mayock has Knowshon as his top RB. I heard the same thing from another source, who thinks Moreno is even a better prospect than AP.


Remember, the kid is only a sophomore.

cmhargrove
04-05-2009, 10:51 AM
No love for Shonn Greene in the second? USe the first two picks on D, then take Greene, he fights, he produces, he gets better as the game goes along, he scores.

Greene had more 100 yard rushing games, and more TD's. And, watching replays, he made more things happen "one his own" than either of the other guys.

Take the production, take the fighter, vote for Pedro... I mean Shonn Greene.

OBF1
04-05-2009, 10:54 AM
This message is hidden because lex is on your ignore list.

I personally think that the SEC is much better defensively than the Big 10

lex
04-05-2009, 11:03 AM
Wells has better speed. He's stronger, runs with good pad level, has great vision but also has great feet in the hole (for anyone let alone someone that weighs 235), he has an amazing stiff arm, and he was at his best against the best competition. I thinik the only big game he didnt do well in may have been the Florida NC game when Florida took away their run by jumping on them early. Moreno has better lateral movement and is maybe a little better leaper but he doesnt present the combination Wells does. Wells is like a boxer who can pound the body but as soon as theres the opening, delivers an uppercut for a knockout. Both are good backs but Wells is an overall better package.

skpac1001
04-05-2009, 12:55 PM
I didn't see the games, but the stats support your big game at LSU. He averaged an amazing 7.8 yards per carry. However, he averaged 4.0 against South Carolina, 3.8 vs Alabama, 3.7 vs Tennesee, 3.8 vs Florida. For anyone who has watched the tape, what is a 1st round rb with a very talented O line and a possible #1 pick qb keeping the defense honest doing with such lackluster stats against the best competition (minus LSU).

For those interested, Wells had one game averaging less then 4.2 yards per carry, a miserable 2.5 vs Penn St. He did face lesser competition, but he was focused on by the defenses more then Moreno, and I think its an easy argument that Moreno had a better supporting cast on offense.

BroncoMan4ever
04-05-2009, 12:57 PM
i agree with lex. i take Wells over Moreno every time. and if we don't take Wells i would prefer we grab Jennings in the 2nd or hope he is there in the 3rd

SouthStndJunkie
04-05-2009, 01:55 PM
While I think Knowshon Moreno is very talented, I would choose Beanie Wells over him for the Broncos.

That said, I would most prefer taking LeSean McCoy with our 2nd round pick and use our first round picks on other positions.

summerdenver
04-05-2009, 01:57 PM
This is a very good article on RBs in this years draft. Cossel says Donal Brown tranlsates to NFL best.


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=534150

skpac1001
04-05-2009, 02:15 PM
This is a very good article on RBs in this years draft. Cossel says Donal Brown tranlsates to NFL best.


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=534150

That was a good article. Much better then the usual analysis in the media. The knocks on Wells don't bother me since he is going to be part of a rotation (Hillis and the 3rd down back at the least), so I don't think taking it easy on plays is going to come up unless he turns out incredible and we are having him take almost all the runs. As far as how physical he is, he is not a Hillis runner but we have one so that's fine. He is plenty physical with the secondary and plenty fast to get to the secondary. If after two good looks Turner decides he is worth a first I will be very excited to get him. If he decides not to I will trust that evaluation also.

Broncoman13
04-05-2009, 02:40 PM
I spent the morning watching film of these two runners. I would definitely want Moreno for the Broncos over Chris Wells for a whole bunch of reasons.

First thing you notice; The competition. OSU's Oline is slicing through those Big Ten Ds like a knife through butter. In run after run after run, Wells isn't touched until he gets to the secondary. The tackling is horrible. It's just one Big Ten stooge after another lying down. There are a few runs where the hole gets stuffed and he does a good job of escaping, using his speed to get around the backside, but Moreno in the same spot does just as well, usually with just a few moves. Wells benefits big time from the team he's on. He's a big guy who is fast and runs in straight lines, relying on his team to make the holes for him. And man, they do.

In film after film of Moreno, he is facing tough, SEC competition. He's getting holes, but they aren't big and they close fast. The Ds he is facing are up on his ass twice as fast as what you see in the Beanie films. Some of Moreno's best highlights are against Alabama and LSU. Beanie's are against Wisconsin and Michigan. Moreno is working harder to get downfield. He makes moves in the holes that cut him free. He's got great spins, great stop-and-go, and can also just bull into the DBs, carrying players with him. He's got fast, shifty feet plus strength. Wells seems to be just solid power and straight-line speed.

The second thing that stands out is the passing. Moreno is catching passes from every angle; Pitch outs, screens, bullets out on the flat, shots over the middle, even a couple of downfield fades from Stafford. In all the Beanie films I could find, he doesn't catch a single pass. Not so much as a single screen. Of course, with that Oline and the competition he's playing against, why take the risk on passing when you can just hand it to him and let him go? It really makes you wonder how much of Stafford's success is made by Moreno.

Lastly, just as a general rule of thumb, I would always draft the SEC player over the Big Ten player. It's pretty clear from the film that Moreno is the more complete back. He's going to give the team he goes to many more options. Hell, I'll bet he could go out of the slot. That would screw with a D's head. The Broncos' roster is already overloaded with big guys who run fast in a straight line. Would Beanie be a big improvement over Hillis? They both have the same style, but Hillis has proved it in the pros. I wonder how Beanie reacts when the holes aren't so big and the LBs are a whole lot bigger? Besides, the Broncos have had very good luck with RBs from Georgia. ;D

If the Broncos decide to go RB in the first (I hope they don't, but go D instead) they should take Moreno over Wells.


Good analysis especially agree with the part about Beanie being similar to Hillis. I think Wells will be a very good, maybe even great, RB in the NFL... but I'm not sure we need another of his type as you stated.

What's your take on Percy Harvin? Could he fill that Reggie Bush type of role. Maybe a more explosive version of Kevin Faulk!?! The only thing I question is his ability to recognize the blitz and pickup a LB to save the QB's 6. IF he can fill that role on 3rd downs you have to put him near the top of your list for #18. Defense not withstanding, he's a sure fire playmaker that can play the slot immediately. He can also be that smaller change of pace guy at RB. Very dynamic... but not very smart.

meangene
04-05-2009, 04:56 PM
They are both very talented runners but I think Wells' style is much better suited to our offense - more of a downhill straight-ahead runner. Will not lose yardage and will consistently move the pile. What makes him special is he still has great speed. That also makes him different from Hillis. Moreno is more of a lateral, make-you-miss kind of runner from what I have seen. I see more risk of negative plays and less willingness to just pound out the 3-4 yard gains.

Br0nc0Buster
04-05-2009, 04:57 PM
pass on both

lex
04-05-2009, 07:14 PM
I didn't see the games, but the stats support your big game at LSU. He averaged an amazing 7.8 yards per carry. However, he averaged 4.0 against South Carolina, 3.8 vs Alabama, 3.7 vs Tennesee, 3.8 vs Florida. For anyone who has watched the tape, what is a 1st round rb with a very talented O line and a possible #1 pick qb keeping the defense honest doing with such lackluster stats against the best competition (minus LSU).

For those interested, Wells had one game averaging less then 4.2 yards per carry, a miserable 2.5 vs Penn St. He did face lesser competition, but he was focused on by the defenses more then Moreno, and I think its an easy argument that Moreno had a better supporting cast on offense.

To be fair, Stafford was a much bigger passing threat and kept defenses from loading up against the run. Meanwhile, Pryor was more effective as a runner so Wells had to face teams that were loading up against the run more. And with that in mind, Wells' APC only went down .1 from the year before. I dont really think the Big Ten is THAT bad at stopping the run...theyre bigger issue is having athletes in the passing game.

lex
04-05-2009, 07:26 PM
This is a very good article on RBs in this years draft. Cossel says Donal Brown tranlsates to NFL best.


http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=534150

I dont agree with his take on Wells. Wells played with injury in both of the past two seasons yet still was productive. There may have been times he was a little hindered by injury but Ive seen him play with strength plenty of times. I agree that if you look at him when he's playing against, say, Texas or LSU, there is a huge difference in how he plays against, say, someone like Purdue. But as someone said, even with the injury this past season there was only one time where he didnt have higher than a 4.2 YPC. I think at the worst, Wells will be a very good running back for Denver and at his best, he will be great. I think he has the highest floor and the highest ceiling.

Im not at all sold on Brown since he played in the big east.

skpac1001
04-05-2009, 07:28 PM
To be fair, Stafford was a much bigger passing threat and kept defenses from loading up against the run. Meanwhile, Pryor was more effective as a runner so Wells had to face teams that were loading up against the run more. And with that in mind, Wells' APC only went down .1 from the year before. I dont really think the Big Ten is THAT bad at stopping the run...theyre bigger issue is having athletes in the passing game.

Yeah, I agree. I think Moreno looks unbelievable in his highlight films, but those stats with the offense he had makes me think he is very likely to struggle in the NFL, and will be at best inconsistent, at worst he will be putting up that 3 yard a carry average every week.
Wells is not a sure thing, but I think the risk is more along the lines of injuries, overuse, or bad fits rather then flat out inability to deal with the NFL.

lex
04-05-2009, 07:34 PM
Yeah, I agree. I think Moreno looks unbelievable in his highlight films, but those stats with the offense he had makes me think he is very likely to struggle in the NFL, and will be at best inconsistent, at worst he will be putting up that 3 yard a carry average every week.
Wells is not a sure thing, but I think the risk is more along the lines of injuries, overuse, or bad fits rather then flat out inability to deal with the NFL.

I think he would be a great fit for Denver. But I agree with what you say about injuries/overuse. But thats any RB. But in any case, we should rotate guys in from time to time. Where RBs really seem to hit walls is when you have them carry the ball up around 400 carries. I think if we keep Wells or whoever around 250-300 carries, that would probably be best in allowing them to stay healthy and have a bigger season in their 2nd year. I think if used right, Wells could easily have 1400-1600 yards and average over 6.0 per carry, especially if the passing game does its part.

skpac1001
04-05-2009, 07:48 PM
I think he would be a great fit for Denver. But I agree with what you say about injuries/overuse. But thats any RB. But in any case, we should rotate guys in from time to time. Where RBs really seem to hit walls is when you have them carry the ball up around 400 carries. I think if we keep Wells or whoever around 250-300 carries, that would probably be best in allowing them to stay healthy and have a bigger season in their 2nd year. I think if used right, Wells could easily have 1400-1600 yards and average over 6.0 per carry, especially if the passing game does its part.

I think so too, although it depends on McDaniels trusting the cutback scheme throughout the season. Mix his time with Hillis/Torain/whoever, put in a 3rd down back on obvious passing downs, and Wells becomes pretty low risk/high reward to me.

BroncoInferno
04-06-2009, 09:01 AM
Wells has better speed. He's stronger, runs with good pad level, has great vision but also has great feet in the hole (for anyone let alone someone that weighs 235), he has an amazing stiff arm, and he was at his best against the best competition. I thinik the only big game he didnt do well in may have been the Florida NC game when Florida took away their run by jumping on them early. Moreno has better lateral movement and is maybe a little better leaper but he doesnt present the combination Wells does. Wells is like a boxer who can pound the body but as soon as theres the opening, delivers an uppercut for a knockout. Both are good backs but Wells is an overall better package.

I would agree that, as a pure runner, Wells is a notch above Moreno, but it isn't by a landslide. What you ignore here, and where I think Moreno's value exceeds Wells', is the receiving dimension Moreno brings to the table. In some offenses, that dimension might not be enough to put Moreno over the top, but McDaniels' offense goes to the RBs a great deal in the passing game. Wells got virtually no experience at all as a receiver at OSU. I think for our offense, Moreno is the better fit.

socalorado
04-06-2009, 09:37 AM
I would agree that, as a pure runner, Wells is a notch above Moreno, but it isn't by a landslide. What you ignore here, and where I think Moreno's value exceeds Wells', is the receiving dimension Moreno brings to the table. In some offenses, that dimension might not be enough to put Moreno over the top, but McDaniels' offense goes to the RBs a great deal in the passing game. Wells got virtually no experience at all as a receiver at OSU. I think for our offense, Moreno is the better fit.

If you had to take a RB knowing DENs needs as of right now, where and who would you take a RB?

Traveler
04-06-2009, 09:58 AM
If you had to take a RB knowing DENs needs as of right now, where and who would you take a RB?

2nd round- Jennings

lex
04-06-2009, 10:05 AM
I would agree that, as a pure runner, Wells is a notch above Moreno, but it isn't by a landslide. What you ignore here, and where I think Moreno's value exceeds Wells', is the receiving dimension Moreno brings to the table. In some offenses, that dimension might not be enough to put Moreno over the top, but McDaniels' offense goes to the RBs a great deal in the passing game. Wells got virtually no experience at all as a receiver at OSU. I think for our offense, Moreno is the better fit.

Not really. If youre going to spread the field with Wells there is a greater mismatch. If, say, we have 4 WRs and Wells, then you only have 7 guys in the tackle to tackle area to stop the run. Also, Wells' receiving in workouts has been impressive according to whats being said. Even still, Jordan isnt really that great of a receiver...neither was Corey Dillon back in the day. The last time New England won a SB, Corey Dillon ran for over 1600 yards.

Mediator12
04-06-2009, 10:09 AM
IMHO, there are NO Rb's worth the top 20 picks in this draft, and therefore None worth DEN selecting where they currently do. In fact this is a really weak draft at the top, 3-4 ELITE players and then a whole bunch of long term Solid starter types and potential long term starter types. So, why even consider a RB who has very little long term potential in a draft when you need all kinds of starters that would be available?

Furthermore, I think there is very little difference between the top RB's and the fourth round RB's in this draft, so why spend needed resources on a short term potential starter? It all comes down to draft philosophy. Some people think that RB is a very legit Position to draft high and help make the tempo of the offense flow. I am not one of those. I want to control the LOS on both sides of the ball so a RB will not determine anything. It is still about stopping the Pass in the NFL, and that is where teams win games. So, give me the Front seven and OL to do both and then let me get skill guys to make the finishing touches. That is how I would draft, so a High RB makes very little sense until the team can actually use one, more than needing players on the Lines and front seven.

lex
04-06-2009, 10:14 AM
IMHO, there are NO Rb's worth the top 20 picks in this draft, and therefore None worth DEN selecting where they currently do. In fact this is a really weak draft at the top, 3-4 ELITE players and then a whole bunch of long term Solid starter types and potential long term starter types. So, why even consider a RB who has very little long term potential in a draft when you need all kinds of starters that would be available?

Furthermore, I think there is very little difference between the top RB's and the fourth round RB's in this draft, so why spend needed resources on a short term potential starter? It all comes down to draft philosophy. Some people think that RB is a very legit Position to draft high and help make the tempo of the offense flow. I am not one of those. I want to control the LOS on both sides of the ball so a RB will not determine anything. It is still about stopping the Pass in the NFL, and that is where teams win games. So, give me the Front seven and OL to do both and then let me get skill guys to make the finishing touches. That is how I would draft, so a High RB makes very little sense until the team can actually use one, more than needing players on the Lines and front seven.

This is not true. If you look at the preseason rankings, Wells was slotted as a top 10 pick. The guy is a tremendous combination of a variety of skills. He is easily worth taking. We need to upgrade our running game to smooth out the inconstitencies of our offense, to improve our red zone performance, and also to better help the new QBs. We need more balance. And having that will also help the defense.

ludo21
04-06-2009, 10:17 AM
Just say yes to RASHAD JENNINGS!!



Jennings next Forte!

Mediator12
04-06-2009, 10:34 AM
This is not true. If you look at the preseason rankings, Wells was slotted as a top 10 pick. The guy is a tremendous combination of a variety of skills. He is easily worth taking. We need to upgrade our running game to smooth out the inconstitencies of our offense, to improve our red zone performance, and also to better help the new QBs. We need more balance. And having that will also help the defense.

Again, that is your OPINION, not truth or fact. I gave MY opinion, and there is no way you can prove that Any RB is worth anything right now. The process is too fluid and teams do not reveal their true boards to us. We can always speculate, which this place is for and I will respect your opinion even when I disagree with it.

Also, Wells has zero value sitting on the bench like Portis did for several games a season for DEN. His value has decreased because he has not been a healthy player, therefore limiting his true value. He also has not had to prove a thing in the passing game at OSU, that will not be the case in the NFL. He WILL have to pass protect and catch the ball at the next level to have top 20 value in any draft. That is why guys like Stephen Jackson slipped mightily in the draft and bypassed DEN. He was much more steady coming out, yet slipped anyway.

socalorado
04-06-2009, 11:20 AM
IMHO, there are NO Rb's worth the top 20 picks in this draft, and therefore None worth DEN selecting where they currently do. In fact this is a really weak draft at the top, 3-4 ELITE players and then a whole bunch of long term Solid starter types and potential long term starter types. So, why even consider a RB who has very little long term potential in a draft when you need all kinds of starters that would be available?

Furthermore, I think there is very little difference between the top RB's and the fourth round RB's in this draft, so why spend needed resources on a short term potential starter? It all comes down to draft philosophy. Some people think that RB is a very legit Position to draft high and help make the tempo of the offense flow. I am not one of those. I want to control the LOS on both sides of the ball so a RB will not determine anything. It is still about stopping the Pass in the NFL, and that is where teams win games. So, give me the Front seven and OL to do both and then let me get skill guys to make the finishing touches. That is how I would draft, so a High RB makes very little sense until the team can actually use one, more than needing players on the Lines and front seven.

QFT!
I have been advocating taking Greene or Jennings later if at all.

Traveler
04-06-2009, 12:07 PM
Broncos | Showing interest in Moreno
Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:30:57 -0700

Carlos Holmes, of the Dayton Daily News, reports the Denver Broncos are believed to be very high on Georgia RB Knowshon Moreno.

http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl

lex
04-06-2009, 12:50 PM
Again, that is your OPINION, not truth or fact. I gave MY opinion, and there is no way you can prove that Any RB is worth anything right now. The process is too fluid and teams do not reveal their true boards to us. We can always speculate, which this place is for and I will respect your opinion even when I disagree with it.

Also, Wells has zero value sitting on the bench like Portis did for several games a season for DEN. His value has decreased because he has not been a healthy player, therefore limiting his true value. He also has not had to prove a thing in the passing game at OSU, that will not be the case in the NFL. He WILL have to pass protect and catch the ball at the next level to have top 20 value in any draft. That is why guys like Stephen Jackson slipped mightily in the draft and bypassed DEN. He was much more steady coming out, yet slipped anyway.

I dont think its too far fetched to say he's eaily more talented than most of the RBs that we've had here. The coach sat him out of 2 of the 3 games this year. In 2007 he played with a bad ankle and a broken wrist and still had over 1600 yards rushing. All of this about injuries is overdone. Again, in actuality he has done well while playing through injury. If you put a guy with that kind of talent in our "system", watch out.

Mediator12
04-06-2009, 01:13 PM
I dont think its too far fetched to say he's eaily more talented than most of the RBs that we've had here. The coach sat him out of 2 of the 3 games this year. In 2007 he played with a bad ankle and a broken wrist and still had over 1600 yards rushing. All of this about injuries is overdone. Again, in actuality he has done well while playing through injury. If you put a guy with that kind of talent in our "system", watch out.

He might be better than most of the RB's they have had here, but again you are missing the point. Early Draft picks need to be long term starters and Wells is not the definition of a Long term NFL RB by any means. He lacks consistency, has isssues in the passing game, and has an injury history in shorter than NFL seasons.

Where it is obvious to me is that you Really place a lot of value on Elite RB's being able to carry teams. The problem I have with that is RB value has declined drastically in the new NFL. More and more RB's are short term solutions due to RB by Committee picking up with more and more teams. Also, It is a very high Injury risk position compared to other positions.

You can package up Wells any way you want to, I am not going to see him as a viable option for DEN in this years first round any way you place him. DEN has too many other important holes to fill besides a luxury RB.

lex
04-06-2009, 01:24 PM
He might be better than most of the RB's they have had here, but again you are missing the point. Early Draft picks need to be long term starters and Wells is not the definition of a Long term NFL RB by any means. He lacks consistency, has isssues in the passing game, and has an injury history in shorter than NFL seasons.

Where it is obvious to me is that you Really place a lot of value on Elite RB's being able to carry teams. The problem I have with that is RB value has declined drastically in the new NFL. More and more RB's are short term solutions due to RB by Committee picking up with more and more teams. Also, It is a very high Injury risk position compared to other positions.

You can package up Wells any way you want to, I am not going to see him as a viable option for DEN in this years first round any way you place him. DEN has too many other important holes to fill besides a luxury RB.

No, good running backs still have value. And much if what you said indicates that you live in distortions. If Beanie Wells gives us 1500 yards per year for 5seasons, he's easily worth the pick.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 01:25 PM
Broncos | Showing interest in Moreno
Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:30:57 -0700

Carlos Holmes, of the Dayton Daily News, reports the Denver Broncos are believed to be very high on Georgia RB Knowshon Moreno.

http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl

I hope my call of the Seahawks reaching for Moreno comes true. As much as I like him, I wouldn't want a RB taken at the 12 pick. I feel that if somebody is not there who we just can't pass up, the Broncos should trade down to one of the teams who are dying for Freeman and get another first and third, or whatever. Three firsts in the bottom half of this first round would be optimum, IMO.

lex
04-06-2009, 01:29 PM
I hope my call of the Seahawks reaching for Moreno comes true. As much as I like him, I wouldn't want a RB taken at the 12 pick. I feel that if somebody is not there who we just can't pass up, the Broncos should trade down to one of the teams who are dying for Freeman and get another first and third, or whatever. Three firsts in the bottom half of this first round would be optimum, IMO.


Do you realize that Walter Jones is 35 and coming off of m/f surgery? Chances are if they dont take a tackle, theyre SOL when the 2nd round rolls around. Plus they went out and signed Houshmandsadeh.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 01:34 PM
He might be better than most of the RB's they have had here, but again you are missing the point. Early Draft picks need to be long term starters and Wells is not the definition of a Long term NFL RB by any means. He lacks consistency, has isssues in the passing game, and has an injury history in shorter than NFL seasons.

Where it is obvious to me is that you Really place a lot of value on Elite RB's being able to carry teams. The problem I have with that is RB value has declined drastically in the new NFL. More and more RB's are short term solutions due to RB by Committee picking up with more and more teams. Also, It is a very high Injury risk position compared to other positions.

You can package up Wells any way you want to, I am not going to see him as a viable option for DEN in this years first round any way you place him. DEN has too many other important holes to fill besides a luxury RB.

I don't like it but you're right. The running game has been down valued. It's so specialized. You can have a RB for just about every occasion; Third and short, second and long, goal line, extra receiver, blocker. I just don't see much first round value in a player as limited as Beanie. He's old school, at best. Moreno looks like the more modern back. He can stay on the field in a lot of different situations.

Doggcow
04-06-2009, 01:38 PM
NEITHER! DONALD BROWN, JAVON RINGER, SHONN GREEN! Don't bust a nut early, there are lots of solid backs this year.

Mediator12
04-06-2009, 02:01 PM
No, good running backs still have value. And much if what you said indicates that you live in distortions. If Beanie Wells gives us 1500 yards per year for 5seasons, he's easily worth the pick.


Says the guy whose evaluations are from the late 1980's to early 1990's ;D I mean seriously close the tunnel vision and step back for a moment.

A distortion would be grading value on past models and projecting any NFL running back producing 5 straight 1500 yards seasons today (let alone one who has not finished a college season healthy mind you). I mean seriously find me a RB who played last year who has had 5 straight 1500 yard seasons. Or the year before, or the year before. You will not find him and the closest would be LT, who is still a better player than Wells might ever be.

broncofan7
04-06-2009, 02:07 PM
I LOVE ME SOME KNOWSHON--Additionally, I am really interested to hear the motivation behind his first name as I am beginning to think that some parents just throw letters in the air and whatever sticks they use.

broncofan7
04-06-2009, 02:07 PM
NEITHER! DONALD BROWN, JAVON RINGER, SHONN GREEN! Don't bust a nut early, there are lots of solid backs this year.

I like Donald Brown too--but I like Knowshon more.......

lex
04-06-2009, 02:28 PM
Says the guy whose evaluations are from the late 1980's to early 1990's ;D I mean seriously close the tunnel vision and step back for a moment.

A distortion would be grading value on past models and projecting any NFL running back producing 5 straight 1500 yards seasons today (let alone one who has not finished a college season healthy mind you). I mean seriously find me a RB who played last year who has had 5 straight 1500 yard seasons. Or the year before, or the year before. You will not find him and the closest would be LT, who is still a better player than Wells might ever be.

Not willing to go all the way out on the limb, I see.

Once again, the last time NE won the SB, they had a 1600 yard rusher. This is still Denver. Theres still the ZBS with BobbyTurner. If you put a top shelf talent in that system, its not at all far fetched to see a string of seasons averaging 1500 yards. I also disagree with you on LT and Wells.

Bronco Boy
04-06-2009, 03:02 PM
I LOVE ME SOME KNOWSHON--Additionally, I am really interested to hear the motivation behind his first name as I am beginning to think that some parents just throw letters in the air and whatever sticks they use.

"Do you know who the father is?"

"I don't, but I know Shon got me drunk 9 months ago."

broncofan7
04-06-2009, 03:56 PM
"Do you know who the father is?"

"I don't, but I know Shon got me drunk 9 months ago."

LOL- Sad part is, I doubt you are that far off;)

Mediator12
04-06-2009, 05:43 PM
Not willing to go all the way out on the limb, I see.

Once again, the last time NE won the SB, they had a 1600 yard rusher. This is still Denver. Theres still the ZBS with BobbyTurner. If you put a top shelf talent in that system, its not at all far fetched to see a string of seasons averaging 1500 yards. I also disagree with you on LT and Wells.

Who was the last DEN rusher to average 1500 yards over 5 seasons?

Who was the last NFL rusher to average 1500 Yards over 5 seasons?

And again, you labeled that I "live in distortions" when you are posing Hypotheticals that have not happened in over a decade in the NFL?

I wonder what Distortions you have to make up hypothetically to make the point that Wells, or Mendenhall, or any other RB is worth to a team that can not make the playoffs in 3 years because it can not stop the run? Think about that.

What RB can carry a team to a SB without a team around them? It was not Corey Dillon in NE or in CIN. LT still has not done it even with a Great team around him! And, the guys who were in the top 10 the last time Corey Dillon went to the SB were Curtis Martin, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Tiki Barber, Rudi Johnson, LT, Reuben Droughns, Fred Taylor, and Clinton Portis. Only 3 of the top ten are starters in the NFL anymore. Those days are over. Stop living in the past check out the new NFL, you might like it ;D

lex
04-06-2009, 06:17 PM
Who was the last DEN rusher to average 1500 yards over 5 seasons?

Who was the last NFL rusher to average 1500 Yards over 5 seasons?

And again, you labeled that I "live in distortions" when you are posing Hypotheticals that have not happened in over a decade in the NFL?

I wonder what Distortions you have to make up hypothetically to make the point that Wells, or Mendenhall, or any other RB is worth to a team that can not make the playoffs in 3 years because it can not stop the run? Think about that.

What RB can carry a team to a SB without a team around them? It was not Corey Dillon in NE or in CIN. LT still has not done it even with a Great team around him! And, the guys who were in the top 10 the last time Corey Dillon went to the SB were Curtis Martin, Shaun Alexander, Edgerrin James, Tiki Barber, Rudi Johnson, LT, Reuben Droughns, Fred Taylor, and Clinton Portis. Only 3 of the top ten are starters in the NFL anymore. Those days are over. Stop living in the past check out the new NFL, you might like it ;D

Actually, I think he would be worth it if he did it for fewer than 5 seasons. But had Davis not had that freak injury, he would have easily done it. And if Portis woudl have stayed with the team, he would have easily done it too. Im really not sure why youre so hung up on that.

You actually need balance including a good running game. The better your running back, the better your running game. Im all about balance. Ive been pretty clear about that. But this notion you have that it doesnt take a good running game is false. And even running back rotations need good RBs. Rotations are good but that doesnt diminish the value of having a good RB. The reason we won SBs was because we had an elite running game. Several teams had elite QBs back in those days. What seperated us was an elite running game. We just traded an elite QB so its more important now than ever to upgrade the running game. Balance is good. Ive never said otherwise.

meangene
04-06-2009, 06:45 PM
IMHO, Wells is a franchise back in the NFL and well worth a top 20 pick. He has a rare blend of speed, agility and athleticism in a 235 pound back. Prior to this season, he was a lock to be a top ten pick. He only fell out of that postion due to injury this season and that is the only reason we have a shot at a back like him. He played 2007 season with a couple of injuries and had a phenomenal season. Unfortunately, an injury kept him out most of 2008. He dominated Texas in the first half of the bowl game at less than full speed. So, he has had a couple of injuries. That doesn't make him a high risk player IMO. His injuries are not of the type to limit him in the future and he has played through most of them. He did not catch the ball much in college because the system he was in did not throw the ball to the backs much, but all indications are that he has good hands and is a natural catcher. That is why he is moving up many teams draft charts. Peterson had more significant injuries coming out of college and he seems to have done ok. And, there were real concerns that his injuries were a result of his upright running style and likely to be a recurring theme. I think Wells is superior to all the first round backs last year: McFadden, Mendenhall, Jones, Stewart or Johnson.

I also do not believe that running backs are devalued in today's NFL. Look at the list of last year's first round backs and look at the teams they went to. Almost all of them already had very good running backs. Yet, teams spent first round picks on them. Look at the deal Turner got in Atlanta - he was a career backup. Sproles was franchised rather than risk losing him. If anything, I think teams are realizing that you need more than one top back in this league. With a 16 game schedule and the pounding these guys take, there are going to be injuries. Being able to consistently run the football is vital to winning in this league. Always has been and always will be. If you run the ball and stop the run, you will be effective in the long run in the NFL.

We have had an effective running game in Denver for years due to a great zone blocking system, great coaching and great playcalling. But, we have been getting by with mediocre backs since Portis left and since TD before him. To have a dominant running game, you need and elite running back and I think Wells is that. Draft him, and all those yards we ring up start to turn into points, our defense becomes better simply because they are not on the field so much, and our team does not wear down late in games or in the season. At least that is my opinion.

Mat'hir Uth Gan
04-06-2009, 07:15 PM
My opinion is that Knowshon Moreno is clearly superior to Chris Wells. The reasons behind this belief is as follows:


1. Knowshon is an excellent blocker and solid at diagnosing blitzes.

2. Knowshon has WR calibur hands and can be used on any type of WR at any time. He's not Reggie Bush good, but he can at least be more then a mere decoy like most other RBs.

3. Knowshon has excellent durability.

4. Knowshon runs like Frank Gore, Adrian Peterson, and LaDainian Tomlinson in the sense that these RBs can create holes when there are none due to their impressive lateral agility as well as their leg strength when the time comes to bowl over defenders. They can make yards even when the blocking assignment has been fubar'd.

5. Knowshon is more battle-tested in the SEC against the faster, speed oriented type of athlete that reigns supreme on NFL defenses.

6. Knowshon would appear to be tailor-made for a cutback running scheme due to his quickness and lateral agility.

7. Denver fans know first hand that 4.6 speed can get you a 2000 yard season (Terrell Davis) if the RB has the other intangibles.

8. Knowshon is quite young still and has minimal wear and tear on his tires.




In my mind, Chris Wells is a very good athlete that projects like Jamal Lewis, but with more durability concerns. However, Wells is far from a finished athlete due to pass catching limitations (at least as of now), blocking technique needs improvement, and the durability concern. I still like him as a Top 15-20 selection. I just happen to think Knowshon is the total package at RB, though his speed is not breakneck calibur. In our system, you don't need 4.3 speed to dominate. I think Moreno could very well be our pick at #12 as the BAP at a position of need.


I could see the draft going as follows:

1. Detroit - QB Matt Stafford
2. St. Louis - OT Jason Smith
3. Kansas City - LB Aaron Curry
4. Seattle - QB Mark Sanchez
5. Cleveland - LB Brian Orakpo
6. Cincinnati - OT Eugene Monroe
7. Oakland - DT BJ Raji
8. Jacksonville - WR Micheal Crabtree
9. Green Bay - CB Malcolm Jenkins
10. San Francisco - OT Andre Smith
11. Buffalo - DE Everette Brown

12. Denver - ?


Best Available Players at a position of need to me are:
1. RB Knowshon Moreno
2. RB Chris Wells
3. DE/LB Robert Ayers
4. CB Sean Smith
5. RB Donald Brown
6. DE Tyson Jackson

mhgaffney
04-07-2009, 03:29 AM
I think you take T Jackson at # 12

If Moreno is there at #18 you grab him.

Mediator12
04-07-2009, 06:31 AM
Actually, I think he would be worth it if he did it for fewer than 5 seasons. But had Davis not had that freak injury, he would have easily done it. And if Portis woudl have stayed with the team, he would have easily done it too. Im really not sure why youre so hung up on that.

You actually need balance including a good running game. The better your running back, the better your running game. Im all about balance. Ive been pretty clear about that. But this notion you have that it doesnt take a good running game is false. And even running back rotations need good RBs. Rotations are good but that doesnt diminish the value of having a good RB. The reason we won SBs was because we had an elite running game. Several teams had elite QBs back in those days. What seperated us was an elite running game. We just traded an elite QB so its more important now than ever to upgrade the running game. Balance is good. Ive never said otherwise.

I am hung up on this because you made a ridiculous assertion in the midst of telling me I live in distortions ;D You are trying to sell the fact that a first round RB would provide the balance DEN needs to win, yet are completely oblivious to the fact that it has been DEN's inability to play defense that has gotten Mike Shanahan Fired and therefore led to the Cutler Trade. Having an all World RB will do absolutely nothing for a team throwing the ball to stay in the game or make a comeback because the other team is routinely scoring 24+ points. Especially a RB that has not demonstrated the ability to stay on the field for obvious passing downs in Wells!

What I think you and others FAIL to realize is that having the All world RB is the final piece in the puzzle, not the foundation anymore. You are blinded by the myth of the Great RB that is more than a short term Solution in the current NFL. The great RB is the luxury pick when you need 8 new Starters. He can not cover over the mistakes of the lesser players, in fact he needs them to succeed more than the other way around.

Now, that being said, It would not suprise me if McDaniels selects a RB in the first round because he is an offensive oriented coach who likes his toys. I really think that would be a shame, but we have seen that happen on draft day many times. The one thing I hope he learned in NE was they draft Heavy to the Lines in the first round, and added the skill positions as needed.

lex
04-07-2009, 08:32 AM
I am hung up on this because you made a ridiculous assertion in the midst of telling me I live in distortions ;D You are trying to sell the fact that a first round RB would provide the balance DEN needs to win, yet are completely oblivious to the fact that it has been DEN's inability to play defense that has gotten Mike Shanahan Fired and therefore led to the Cutler Trade. Having an all World RB will do absolutely nothing for a team throwing the ball to stay in the game or make a comeback because the other team is routinely scoring 24+ points. Especially a RB that has not demonstrated the ability to stay on the field for obvious passing downs in Wells!

What I think you and others FAIL to realize is that having the All world RB is the final piece in the puzzle, not the foundation anymore. You are blinded by the myth of the Great RB that is more than a short term Solution in the current NFL. The great RB is the luxury pick when you need 8 new Starters. He can not cover over the mistakes of the lesser players, in fact he needs them to succeed more than the other way around.

Now, that being said, It would not suprise me if McDaniels selects a RB in the first round because he is an offensive oriented coach who likes his toys. I really think that would be a shame, but we have seen that happen on draft day many times. The one thing I hope he learned in NE was they draft Heavy to the Lines in the first round, and added the skill positions as needed.


Im not trying to sell anything. Good runnig backs still have value. Your silly notion that there is no such thing as a "franchise back" and he is therefore not worth taking in the first round is dumb. Do you realize that the difference between a back having 350 carries and 300 carries is 3 carries per game? Thats really not a THAT significant. Its amazing how 3 carries per game can give people some ridiculous world view. "Todays NFL"....LOL...youre hiliarious.

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 08:56 AM
Im not trying to sell anything. Good runnig backs still have value. Your silly notion that there is no such thing as a "franchise back" and he is therefore not worth taking in the first round is dumb. Do you realize that the difference between a back having 350 carries and 300 carries is 3 carries per game? Thats really not a THAT significant. Its amazing how 3 carries per game can give people some ridiculous world view. "Todays NFL"....LOL...youre hiliarious.

Maybe if you would treat people with respect when you're disagreeing with them you wouldn't be considered such a jerk? Mediator has brought a lot of great info and takes to this board over the years. Your pretenses at being some kind of professional scout are getting tiresome. You know nothing more than anybody else on here and your takes were not carved on Mt. Sinai by God. Come back down to earth, Turdman.

lex
04-07-2009, 09:25 AM
Maybe if you would treat people with respect when you're disagreeing with them you wouldn't be considered such a jerk? Mediator has brought a lot of great info and takes to this board over the years. Your pretenses at being some kind of professional scout are getting tiresome. You know nothing more than anybody else on here and your takes were not carved on Mt. Sinai by God. Come back down to earth, Turdman.

Listen here, ****head. Why do you even bother making this post? I dont really care if you like me or not. In case you couldnt tell, Im not really seeking your approval. If Ive kicked you in the teeth at some point, its not really my problem. Stop kvetching about it. I really put minimal value in your thoughts or input. Have fun on ignore, scrub.

socalorado
04-07-2009, 09:54 AM
Listen here, ****head. Why do you even bother making this post? I dont really care if you like me or not. In case you couldnt tell, Im not really seeking your approval. If Ive kicked you in the teeth at some point, its not really my problem. Stop kvetching about it. I really put minimal value in your thoughts or input. Have fun on ignore, scrub.

HEY!?!?!

Wheres your list?!?!

Dammit! bring back the list!

Rohirrim
04-07-2009, 09:55 AM
Listen here, ****head. Why do you even bother making this post? I dont really care if you like me or not. In case you couldnt tell, Im not really seeking your approval. If Ive kicked you in the teeth at some point, its not really my problem. Stop kvetching about it. I really put minimal value in your thoughts or input. Have fun on ignore, scrub.

I guess once an asshole, always an asshole. Just trying to give a little friendly advice. Rock on, Turdman.

lex
04-07-2009, 10:06 AM
HEY!?!?!

Wheres your list?!?!

Dammit! bring back the list!

When I put you on ignore, ask Roh. Maybe he took it with him.

Broncoman13
04-08-2009, 01:37 PM
Listen here, ****head. Why do you even bother making this post? I dont really care if you like me or not. In case you couldnt tell, Im not really seeking your approval. If Ive kicked you in the teeth at some point, its not really my problem. Stop kvetching about it. I really put minimal value in your thoughts or input. Have fun on ignore, scrub.

He was pointing out that we would much prefer to read Med's insightful posts than your BS dribble and to cut your childish act so as not to run off somebody that most people on the Mane actually support and appreciate... unlike yourself! And, he was actually being nice about it and you turn around and act like a little beyotch!

Br0nc0Buster
04-08-2009, 02:44 PM
Listen here, ****head. Why do you even bother making this post? I dont really care if you like me or not. In case you couldnt tell, Im not really seeking your approval. If Ive kicked you in the teeth at some point, its not really my problem. Stop kvetching about it. I really put minimal value in your thoughts or input. Have fun on ignore, scrub.

LOL.....of course

ohiobronco2
04-08-2009, 08:23 PM
Moreno is also better than Beanie at showing up for meetings. ;)

Beanie Blows Off Broncos?
Posted by Mike Florio on April 8, 2009, 11:20 p.m.
A league source tells us that Ohio State running back Chris “Beanie” Wells was supposed to visit the Broncos on Wednesday.

Per the source, Wells missed his flight.

And, as a result, Wells didn’t show for the meeting.

It’s unknown at this point whether the Broncos were informed that Wells wouldn’t be there, or whether some dude dressed in black is still holding a sign that says “Beanie” in the Denver airport.

If so, we assume that anyone nearby is standing upwind.

Kaylore
04-08-2009, 09:56 PM
Lex is awesome. What a loser jerk wad he is.

mhgaffney
04-08-2009, 10:22 PM
I believe the trade name is "beano"

azbroncfan
11-16-2009, 02:36 PM
I have seen both of these guys playing so far and you definately can see that Wells is more talented. I think that they both will be good for the next few years but right now to me it seems that Wells is going to be a better back and has the talent to be one of the best in the league. I know it is too early to say one way or another but that is my observation.

Bronco Boy
11-16-2009, 04:15 PM
Can Beanie even pass block though? I personally haven't watched AZ much, but he didn't block much in college.

azbroncfan
11-16-2009, 04:18 PM
Can Beanie even pass block though? I personally haven't watched AZ much, but he didn't block much in college.

No not sure if he is smart enough. They use Hightower in passing situations. Moreno is definately farther along in his developement and I haven't noticed the soft Wells that he was in college. Wells will start to get more and more carries for the rest of the year.

lex
11-16-2009, 06:33 PM
Yeah, Wells has started to look good.