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View Full Version : In a "Do Over" Scenaro...


Captain 'Dre
04-05-2009, 09:18 AM
If Pat Bowlen could turn back time by several months, do you think he makes a different decision about a head coach, in hopes of avoiding the collossal Jay-vs.-Josh head-butting catastrophe that's followed?

Or would Bowlen choose McD all over again, essentially accepting that Jay Cutler doesn't have the head on his shoulders to be a winning quarterbck?

Seems to me that-- understanding what we've come to know about Jay-- that Jay just had to go. Unfortunate, but necessary.

Thoughts?

Breck Bronc
04-05-2009, 09:26 AM
Bowlen is the guy who said at his press conference after firing Mike Shanahan that "Cutler was the man around here now" and that the Goodmans wouldn't be fired.

Since then Cutler is the man in Chicago and the Goodmans have been let go.

I don't know if he'd change his decision about McDaniels, but Bowlen better hope that McDaniels and Xanders have a clue about the next two drafts.

Pony Boy
04-05-2009, 09:29 AM
Not just Bowlen but every Bronco fan would want a "do over". McDaniels would want one too, but not Cutler he got his wish.

NYBronco
04-05-2009, 09:32 AM
Shanahan as well.

NYBronco
04-05-2009, 09:33 AM
Double thread. I need to repost my comments in each thread.

Shanahan as well.

Pony Boy
04-05-2009, 09:44 AM
Shanahan as well.

Don't you wish Shanahan would have swallowed his pride and let someone come in to fix the defense?

Spider
04-05-2009, 09:46 AM
naw i dont think Bowlen would want a do over .......I dont think Bowlen went into this half assed without knowing how deep the water was .......

ColoradoDarin
04-05-2009, 10:32 AM
Another "Do over"... we go all the way back to the 2006 draft, don't trade up to #15 with Atlanta (prior to the trade up with St Louis) and keep the 2 #1's we had, take some defense players there and with the extra 3rd that we had to part with.

Yet Another "Do over"...we go all the way back to 1999 and Bubby Brister starts the season...

etc etc

DenverBrit
04-05-2009, 10:42 AM
naw i dont think Bowlen would want a do over .......I dont think Bowlen went into this half assed without knowing how deep the water was .......

That's it.
Bowlen knew exactly what Jay's issues were....immaturity, pouty, self-interest, leadership issues...etc.
There's a good reason why he was willing to let his QB go and back his young HC. The owner wasn't sold on him.....and without Bates and Shanny to shelter and coddle Jay, he understood that conflict was inevitable.

Better now than during training camp......imagine the drama of a hissy fit and hold-out just before the season begins.
This way, Denver makes out with a haul of draft picks and a QB capable of starting........and one with a 'team' attitude.

Popps
04-05-2009, 10:46 AM
No way.

In fact, I'd bet Bowlen is more confident about his decision now than he was when he did it. Bowlen didn't get where he is in life by being too chicken-**** to take chances.

Will this work out? Maybe, maybe not... but no businessman reaps rewards without taking on risk, and Bowlen has been doing this long enough to know when that's necessary.

tsiguy96
04-05-2009, 10:48 AM
if he fully understand the type of person that cutler was back then, no. but cutlers true colors came out during this whole ordeal, and it is pretty clear what bowlen thinks of that.

Hercules Rockefeller
04-05-2009, 10:59 AM
All the people who said Bowlen knew about Jay's shortcomings are right. Too many people here think everyone learns everything through the press and no one knows about it until it's reported. Bowlen, McDaniels, Shanahan, etc. all knew Jay was immature, just because the Denver Post or Rocky reported it doesn't make it any less true. It wasn't breaking news when Josina Anderson wrote that there might have been issues with Jay's drinking because I'm sure I wasn't the only one on this board who has seen Jay drinking by himself on multiple occasions in downtown Denver. Montrose posted the recap of Lynch's interview in San Diego, where he called Jay a moody loner that Shanahan let do whatever he wanted.

I don't think Bowlen regrets either firing Shanahan or trading Jay one bit at this point. Might be awhile before Denver sniffs a playoff appearance, but he'll live.

tsiguy96
04-05-2009, 11:01 AM
All the people who said Bowlen knew about Jay's shortcomings are right. Too many people here think everyone learns everything through the press and no one knows about it until it's reported. Bowlen, McDaniels, Shanahan, etc. all knew Jay was immature, just because the Denver Post or Rocky reported it doesn't make it any less true. It wasn't breaking news when Josina Anderson wrote that there might have been issues with Jay's drinking because I'm sure I wasn't the only one on this board who has seen Jay drinking by himself on multiple occasions in downtown Denver. Montrose posted the recap of Lynch's interview in San Diego, where he called Jay a moody loner that Shanahan let do whatever he wanted.

I don't think Bowlen regrets either firing Shanahan or trading Jay one bit at this point. Might be awhile before Denver sniffs a playoff appearance, but he'll live.

really? thats crazy

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 11:03 AM
If I was to construct a do-over, Shanahan would walk into Bowlen's office and say, "I suck at this GM stuff. I just want to go back to being a HC. Let's bring in the best GM we can find, somebody who can get me a good DC and build me up a defense. I'll take care of the xs and os."

spdirty
04-05-2009, 11:04 AM
Don't you wish Shanahan would have swallowed his pride and let someone come in to fix the defense?

Shanny already tried to do that. That "someone" was Jim Bates...let him have the players he wanted (Moss, Crowder, Thomas), and it didnt work.

tsiguy96
04-05-2009, 11:06 AM
Shanny already tried to do that. That "someone" was Jim Bates...let him have the players he wanted (Moss, Crowder, Thomas), and it didnt work.

he did only get one year...and bates was still better than slowik.

Pick Six
04-05-2009, 11:10 AM
Captain Dre, you can delete one of your double posts by clicking the "edit" button and click the "delete message" button.

As for your question, the first scenario assumes that Bowlen is frustrated with McDaniel's handling of Cutler. He might have seen this as a blessing in disguise. Cutler showed he had the attitude of being "above the team".

Kaylore
04-05-2009, 11:42 AM
If there's anything they do over, it's that they follow through on the initial trade for Cassel.

colonelbeef
04-05-2009, 11:46 AM
Don't you wish Shanahan would have swallowed his pride and let someone come in to fix the defense?

beyond that, I wish Hillis hadn't of injured himself on that freak play. Hillis stays healthy, Broncos make the playoffs, Shanahan is still the coach, and Cutler is getting ready to throw for 4k and 30 tds next year while the defense is being improved.

Spider
04-05-2009, 11:49 AM
beyond that, I wish Hillis hadn't of injured himself on that freak play. Hillis stays healthy, Broncos make the playoffs, Shanahan is still the coach, and Cutler is getting ready to throw for 4k and 30 tds next year while the defense is being improved.

;D sweet .. but the defense improving is a reach

Florida_Bronco
04-05-2009, 11:53 AM
he did only get one year...and bates was still better than slowik.

He didn't even get a year. Slowik took over about halfway through 07 IIRC.

NYBronco
04-05-2009, 11:54 AM
Don't you wish Shanahan would have swallowed his pride and let someone come in to fix the defense?

Yes, I do. I think one more year under Shanahan would have been fair but his defensive inabilities obviously really hurt the Broncos.

colonelbeef
04-05-2009, 12:30 PM
Yes, I do. I think one more year under Shanahan would have been fair but his defensive inabilities obviously really hurt the Broncos.

defensive inabilities? It's like all of you exist in a vacuum where Shanahan didn't put together two championship teams, as well as a 2005/06 AFC title game run.

He was building a team from the ground up, and since he is an offensive coach, he started with the offense while letting the defense sit tight until he could get a new QB, O-line, RB's, TE's, etc.

He thought he would have the time to take advantage of the cap space his planning had perfectly put him in position for. He was wrong and Bowlen jumped the gun.

DenverBrit
04-05-2009, 02:07 PM
defensive inabilities? It's like all of you exist in a vacuum where Shanahan didn't put together two championship teams, as well as a 2005/06 AFC title game run.

He was building a team from the ground up, and since he is an offensive coach, he started with the offense while letting the defense sit tight until he could get a new QB, O-line, RB's, TE's, etc.

He thought he would have the time to take advantage of the cap space his planning had perfectly put him in position for. He was wrong and Bowlen jumped the gun.

You know Shanny personally and he shared his plans with you??

Sh*t, you could have told Bowlen. ;D

Breaker
04-05-2009, 02:10 PM
1. Hire Scott Pioli
2. Hire Steve Spagnulo
3. Promote Jeremy Bates to Offensive Coordinator
4. Kick Bob in the nuts

colonelbeef
04-05-2009, 02:24 PM
You know Shanny personally and he shared his plans with you??

Sh*t, you could have told Bowlen. ;D

Bowlen got tired of hearing how Shanahan owned him and was responsible for all decision making, and took the opportunity to rewrite his own biography. We shall see how it works out. I personally believe Shanahan was in the process of building another dynasty, a remake of the 90's Broncos, only much younger and with more time to grow together. A team that dominated the clock and tempo with an offensive line that could run as well as pass block, with receivers that could stretch the field as well as makes plays in traffic, a team with a strong, quick QB who could make all the throws necessary, and the final step- a decent defense that had the ability to get pressure and the timely turnover.

It was happening, Bowlen got agitated and made a snap decision that he could not turn back on. I give him credit for having guts, however, people who think Shanahan didn't know exactly what he was doing are dead wrong. The defense was just a little more putrid than expected, the Al Wilson early retirement really hurt the team up the middle and Shanahan wasn't able to replace him quickly enough.

Bronx33
04-05-2009, 02:40 PM
Bowlen got tired of hearing how Shanahan owned him and was responsible for all decision making, and took the opportunity to rewrite his own biography. We shall see how it works out. I personally believe Shanahan was in the process of building another dynasty, a remake of the 90's Broncos, only much younger and with more time to grow together. A team that dominated the clock and tempo with an offensive line that could run as well as pass block, with receivers that could stretch the field as well as makes plays in traffic, a team with a strong, quick QB who could make all the throws necessary, and the final step- a decent defense that had the ability to get pressure and the timely turnover.

It was happening, Bowlen got agitated and made a snap decision that he could not turn back on. I give him credit for having guts, however, people who think Shanahan didn't know exactly what he was doing are dead wrong. The defense was just a little more putrid than expected, the Al Wilson early retirement really hurt the team up the middle and Shanahan wasn't able to replace him quickly enough.


Shanahans love for slowik ended his time in denver.

colonelbeef
04-05-2009, 02:46 PM
Shanahans love for slowik ended his time in denver.

that was the straw, undoubtedly..

and not to defend the schemes, they were atrocious. In particular, the lack of imagination regarding blitzes was embarrassing.

However- personnel, and lack of quality play up the middle in particular, is what killed Slowik and in turn Shanahan.

I just don't agree with the "Shanahan didn't know how to build a defense" garbage.

His track record says he does, and it speaks for itself. He just neglected the defense and instead was building a mammoth offense capable of dictating the pace of a game. Wait till these guys turn 27, 28 together. they were going to completely kick ass.

He thought he could survive until this and the next offseason, which would undoubtedly be spent on defensive upgrades. It's unfortunate, imo, that he wasn't given that opportunity to spend the space he had saved up for this exact purpose.

cutthemdown
04-05-2009, 02:46 PM
defensive inabilities? It's like all of you exist in a vacuum where Shanahan didn't put together two championship teams, as well as a 2005/06 AFC title game run.

He was building a team from the ground up, and since he is an offensive coach, he started with the offense while letting the defense sit tight until he could get a new QB, O-line, RB's, TE's, etc.

He thought he would have the time to take advantage of the cap space his planning had perfectly put him in position for. He was wrong and Bowlen jumped the gun.

not really true. Shanny tried to fix defense first. Big money on Gardner, high picks on Moss, Crowder, traded up for Thomas, traded for Bly, and drafted Doom.

Had Crowder been a stud DE, and Moss a great pass rusher, Gardner not cost a ton of money for nothing a few yrs before that, then who knows.

cutthemdown
04-05-2009, 02:47 PM
Shanny tried to fix defense and failed, went through a ton of coordinators, made some FA moves that didn't work out. He did all of that. To say he had not yet turned his eye to defense is an outright lie IMO.

DenverBrit
04-05-2009, 02:56 PM
Bowlen got tired of hearing how Shanahan owned him and was responsible for all decision making, and took the opportunity to rewrite his own biography. We shall see how it works out. I personally believe Shanahan was in the process of building another dynasty, a remake of the 90's Broncos, only much younger and with more time to grow together. A team that dominated the clock and tempo with an offensive line that could run as well as pass block, with receivers that could stretch the field as well as makes plays in traffic, a team with a strong, quick QB who could make all the throws necessary, and the final step- a decent defense that had the ability to get pressure and the timely turnover.

It was happening, Bowlen got agitated and made a snap decision that he could not turn back on. I give him credit for having guts, however, people who think Shanahan didn't know exactly what he was doing are dead wrong. The defense was just a little more putrid than expected, the Al Wilson early retirement really hurt the team up the middle and Shanahan wasn't able to replace him quickly enough.

Shanny got fired for missing the last three playoffs and having only one playoff win in a decade. Worse still, when Shanny got his shiny new toy (Jay) he handed over the D to Bates and then Slowic.
They drafted badly and brought in FA busts by the cartload. A long standing tradition with Shanny, unfortunately.
But Shanny was busy building a team around one player........allowing the D to finally rot and special teams?....well they went the same way.
No team wins by neglecting half the team. As much as I liked Shanny, I wasn't that surprised when Bowlen said 'enough.'
We'll know if the new regime was a good move or not in the next couple of years.
But one thing is sure, the Broncos couldn't continue to slide off into mediocrity without the owner making a change.

OBF1
04-05-2009, 03:03 PM
Like Mr Bowlen, I am pretty happy with the way things have turned out.

Maybe letting Shanahan goes was what he needed to get the ball rolling on getting rid of Jay as well. Pat knew how Jay was with Shanny and as soon as Mike was gone, It was just a matter of time until Jay followed him out the door. Maybe this was the plan the entire time and Pat and Josh were in this together to make this happen and knowing how Jay was a crying baby, just start some rumors and get it going. Now we sit with a good system type QB, 2 first rounders and an extra 3rd. Pretty damn good haul if you axe me.

DBroncos4life
04-05-2009, 03:13 PM
I don't think you will hear many HCs and GMs say.."we are one mid-level QB away from winning it all."

tsiguy96
04-05-2009, 03:15 PM
I don't think you will hear many HCs and GMs say.."we are one mid-level QB away from winning it all."

you do hear many good teams not having enough picks or time to fix a defense...we got that now fool

DBroncos4life
04-05-2009, 03:19 PM
you do hear many good teams not having enough picks or time to fix a defense...we got that now fool


Thank god no one ever busts via the draft. :thumbsup: What we got now is a "chance" to improve the D should we even draft a player for the D and he in fact doesn't turn out to be a bust.

tsiguy96
04-05-2009, 03:21 PM
Thank god no one ever busts via the draft. :thumbsup: What we got now is a "chance" to improve the D should we even draft a player for the D and he in fact doesn't turn out to be a bust.

better than having a whiny quarterback who bails on his team as soon as his feelings get hurt. team being key word, pat and mcd understand that concept, and it takes a great team to win, not great qb.

fdf
04-05-2009, 03:22 PM
really? thats crazy

It's sure crazy for a diabetic. Alcohol is poison for diabetics.

Spider
04-05-2009, 03:24 PM
this is crazy ......... I finding myself agreeing with people I dont like ....... Damn you Cutler .........

colonelbeef
04-05-2009, 03:29 PM
not really true. Shanny tried to fix defense first. Big money on Gardner, high picks on Moss, Crowder, traded up for Thomas, traded for Bly, and drafted Doom.

Had Crowder been a stud DE, and Moss a great pass rusher, Gardner not cost a ton of money for nothing a few yrs before that, then who knows.

Moss broke his leg and it has clearly stunted his development. Crowder seemingly took a step back after a respectable freshman campaign, I blame the terrible D-line coaching more than anything. Marcus Thomas was a 4th rounder who played fairly well last year, Dumervil has been a solid pick as well. Bly took the place of a fantastic pick, Darrent Williams, who was shot to death, and he played well enough. A DB who likes to take chances will nev er look good unless there is pressure here and there to force the QB to make a snap decision.

Never was the "big money" spent on one particular defensive player, most were over the hill fill ins or underachieving former high round picks given a last shot. No big name free agent was ever brought in. Most of the resources, particularly since 05/06 (I don't call having a home AFCCG and losing to a molten-hot Steelers team a failure, especially with Plummer @ QB, another reclamation project) were spent on the offense. Al Wilson having to retire so early really hurt the team in retrospect, just as losing Nalen and Rod Smith, in essence, in 2007 did. Three huge,productive team leaders gone in an instant, while the rest of the team is suddenly extremely young and inexperienced. Makes the transition all that much more difficult, and I commend Shanahan for maintaining a competitive team during all of that commotion, really an admirable coaching job.


I strongly suggest that those of you who focus on the small and seemingly easy to analyze (No playoffs in 3 years!! not ever double digit win marks !! WTF!!!!111!!!1!11!1 one one Shannnahann!!!11!) take a more comprehensive and less biased look at what was actually going on, it was much bigger than any one or even 3 seasons. He was building a dynasty. Cutler/Clady/Marshall/Royal/Harris/Kuper/Hillis/Sheffler led dynasty. That team was setting records at age 24/25. God forbid they got to be 28 together, there was no ceiling.

Jekyll15Hyde
04-05-2009, 04:23 PM
Moss broke his leg and it has clearly stunted his development.

Moss was the wrong pick from the get go. A team with a 4-3 had NO business drafting him let alone trading up for him. The only way Moss would (or will in the future) was as a 3-4 OLB. And its not even clear that he has a chance to do that.

Popps
04-05-2009, 04:32 PM
Bowlen got tired of hearing how Shanahan owned him and was responsible for all decision making, and took the opportunity to rewrite his own biography. .

Wow, did you guys have lunch or something? Pretty intimate detail he shared with you there.

Bronx33
04-05-2009, 04:34 PM
Wow, did you guys have lunch or something? Pretty intimate detail he shared with you there.


They also watched some scary movies and worked on their golf swings.

Kid A
04-05-2009, 05:24 PM
1. Hire Scott Pioli
2. Hire Steve Spagnulo
3. Promote Jeremy Bates to Offensive Coordinator
4. Kick Bob in the nuts

See, that might be your dream scenario, but it is completely divorced from reality.

If we do part 1 and hire Pioli, I doubt he hires Spagnulo. More likely he hires McDaniels.

For the sake of argument say Pioli did bring in Spags. Part 3 also is unrealistic. I would be surprised, based on what he has done so far in St. Louis, if he would promote Bates to OC. Likely he would try to keep a couple guys on staff and bring in some of his own guys for bigger positions.

So really, I'm not sure how much power you think Bowlen has to not only get people to work for him, but also under the condition that they then hire who specific people. Pioli wouldn't come to town if he was forced to hire Spags. Spags wouldn't come if he was required to promote Bates. It wouldn't have happened.