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baja
04-05-2009, 08:49 AM
Broncos could brew historic draft with 5-pack
For only the second time in franchise history, Denver has five picks in first 84 draft selections.
By Jim Armstrong
The Denver Post
POSTED: 04/05/2009 12:30:00 AM MDT


Broncos coach Josh McDaniels (Kathryn Scott Osler, Denver Post file photo)
There was a time not so long ago when Pat Bowlen said Josh McDaniels would coach the Broncos, not decide which players were on their roster.

Back then, in the early days of 2009, the owner decreed that Jim Goodman would be the team's de facto general manager. How'd that work out, Jimbo?

<b>Goodman is gone, along with his son, assistant GM Jeff Goodman. And the Broncos' Southeast region scout has left too. His name? That would be Tyler Goodman, another of Goodman's sons.

They aren't alone. West region scout Bobby Beers left the organization before all the recent tumult, leaving the Broncos' scouting department short on numbers.

This is McDaniels' reality as he heads into his first-ever draft as the keeper of the Broncos' </b>

The Broncos, in the aftermath of the trade that sent Jay Cutler to Chicago, may have more draft-weekend resources than any other NFL team. The key is to cash them in.
Denver for the first time in franchise history will have two first-rounders, the 12th and 18th selections. Not only that, the Broncos will have a second-rounder and two third-rounders, giving them five selections among the first 84 picks for the second time in franchise history.

"First of all, it gives us a lot of flexibility," McDaniels said. "As a football team, going into the draft, the more you have, the better off you are. Because if you need to maneuver to try to get some players you really feel good about, you have the ammunition to go do some of those things."

The Cutler saga, by McDaniels' own admission, didn't turn out the way the Broncos wanted. But in his absence is an opportunity to create a more balanced team than the one-trick pony the Broncos have been in recent seasons. Fact: Denver was second in the NFL in total offense last season, 29th in defense. The gap between the two, 27 notches, was the widest in the league, ahead of New Orleans, which had the No. 1-ranked offense and the No. 23 defense.

"That's going to be the goal all the time, to try to be as good defensively as you are offensively, or vice versa," McDaniels said. "I've said from the first moment I landed in Denver that our goal was to improve the team. We have significant improvement to do on both sides of the ball and in the kicking game."

The Broncos obviously will address that 29th-ranked defense during the April 25-26 draft. Question is, would they consider a possible long-term successor to Cutler at No. 12?

"As far as it being a defensive or offensive draft, it's going to be the best players at a position where we need players to help our team win," McDaniels said. "As far as a quarterback is concerned, we're evaluating all those players just the same. If one of those players, whoever he may be, whenever it may be, is somebody we would like to have on this team, then we would consider drafting a quarterback."

It figures to be a moot point by the time the Broncos' first selection rolls around. Georgia's Matthew Stafford and USC's Mark Sanchez, the two highest-ranked quarterbacks available, are expected to be long gone by No. 12. But if so, it would increase the Broncos' chances of landing a top-flight linebacker or defensive lineman.

"They need front seven on D," said Denver-based Cecil Lammey of Draftguys.com. "For this draft to be successful, three out of those five (among the first 84) have to be impact players. There's a lot of good stuff there for the Broncos. They're in a very good position to fill positions of need."

As usual, the outlook of the first round is a work in progress. But dramatic changes have come in recent days, the likes of which could well impact the Broncos' selections. Case in point: Boston College's B.J. Raji, the best nose-tackle prospect in the draft, tested positive for an unknown substance at the scouting combine, according to Sports Illustrated. That could drop him from the top five down to No. 12. If so, McDaniels would have a dilemma on his hands.

"That's got to be Raji if he's there," Lammey said. "That's the ultimate dream for the Broncos, if he slips to them at 12. The nose tackle is the anchor of the 3-4 defense. He can push the pocket and rush the quarterback. When you look at the tackles in this draft, it's Raji and a bunch of other guys."

Further complicating things, USC outside linebackers Brian Cushing and Clay Matthews are rumored to have tested positive for steroids. The rumors are so rampant, USC coach Pete Carroll recently went public to deny them. We're left to wonder how, if at all, the rumors will affect each player's draft status, but both could be candidates for the 18th pick.

Other candidates at No. 18: Cincinnati defensive end-outside linebacker Conner Barwin, who led the Big East in sacks, and Ohio State cornerback Malcolm Jenkins, who, like Raji, has had a private workout for the Broncos. Another candidate, Texas defensive end Brian Orakpo, has a private Broncos workout scheduled, according to NFL.com.

Jim Armstrong: 303-954-1269 or jmarmstrong@denverpost.com

Hits and misses

For the second time in franchise history, the Broncos own five of the first 84 picks in the NFL draft. The first time was in 1975, when they converted the picks into one starter, Ring of Famer Louis Wright. But on two similar occasions 1967 and 1973, when they had five of the first 85 and five of the first 88 the Broncos came away with a motherlode of talent. Here's a look at the starters acquired with the first five picks in those drafts:

1967: HB Floyd Little, T Mike Current, G George Goeddeke, OLB Carl Cunningham, TE Tom Beer

1973: HB Otis Armstrong, DE Barney Chavous, G Paul Howard, OLB Tom Jackson

Jim Armstrong, The Denver Post

Listen to Josh McDaniels' April 3 Press Conference

Jim Armstrong asks McDaniels how the Broncos' draft situation has changed, and McDaniels will draft a quarterback (1:00)
Jim Armstrong asks McDaniels about finding starters int he draft, and what improvements might come out of the draft (1:49)
Listen to the entire press conference (22:20)

Rabb
04-05-2009, 09:26 AM
queue the "we have a new regime with no drafting experience and will fail" comments

NYBronco
04-05-2009, 09:31 AM
queue the "we have a new regime with no drafting experience and will fail" comments

As opposed to the previous leadership and all their experience that couldn't put a respectable defense on the field over the past three years.

Hercules Rockefeller
04-05-2009, 09:38 AM
This would be the 2nd time in franchise history the team has had 2 1st round picks in the same year, if the Broncos use both picks, it will be the first time in franchise history that the team has exercised 2 1st round picks in the same draft.

Spider
04-05-2009, 09:40 AM
1973: HB Otis Armstrong, DE Barney Chavous, G Paul Howard, OLB Tom Jackson that was one hellva draft

Spider
04-05-2009, 09:41 AM
I would like to see all of 10 picks go on defensive players ....... Hillis as Starting running back ......

LonghornBronco
04-05-2009, 09:42 AM
It sounds like not only are the Goodmans gone but the scouting dept is depleted.

JCMElway
04-05-2009, 09:46 AM
Wow, look at that 1973 draft. Outstanding!!!!

TheDave
04-05-2009, 10:07 AM
Jesus christ, the most important draft in recent memory with the most ammunition in team history... and the scouting department is thin in the most important talent pools.

This just keeps getting better...

Tombstone RJ
04-05-2009, 10:12 AM
Jesus christ, the most important draft in recent memory with the most ammunition in team history... and the scouting department is thin in the most important talent pools.

This just keeps getting better...

The one problem with this Klis article is it paints a picture that the Broncos don't have a fully staffed scouting department. They do. It's just not the Goodmans...

footstepsfrom#27
04-05-2009, 10:20 AM
Jesus christ, the most important draft in recent memory with the most ammunition in team history... and the scouting department is thin in the most important talent pools.

This just keeps getting better...
Doesn't it? Nice strategy...dump the experienced people who proved what they could do and go into the draft with fewer scouts on top of that. But hey...Pat knows what he's doing and the last few months prove it. :clown:

orinjkrush
04-05-2009, 10:21 AM
if I'm the Broncos, I hire somebody like Cowher or Jimmy Johnson as a drafting "consultant". Or whoever's available and has some EXPERIENCE at this. (can we bring back whoever drafted the Bronco '73 class?)

I wouldn't feel comfortable with McD and Xanders heading this up.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 10:26 AM
They brought in Keith Kidd to run the scouting department back in February. The remainder of the scouts are guys that have been here a long time. Anyway, I don't think the problem has ever been with who is providing the info, more like who is making the picks. The Goodmans had some luck. Hopefully, the new team does as well.

telluride
04-05-2009, 10:42 AM
Jesus christ, the most important draft in recent memory with the most ammunition in team history... and the scouting department is thin in the most important talent pools.

This just keeps getting better...

Yes, a scouting department that utterly blew 8 of the last 10 drafts for us. Golly, what will we do?

tsiguy96
04-05-2009, 10:42 AM
They brought in Keith Kidd to run the scouting department back in February. The remainder of the scouts are guys that have been here a long time. Anyway, I don't think the problem has ever been with who is providing the info, more like who is making the picks. The Goodmans had some luck. Hopefully, the new team does as well.

how dare you hope the new FO does good. you are supposed to predict absolue failure at anything, including winning games and drafting good players.

DenverBrit
04-05-2009, 10:45 AM
how dare you hope the new FO does good. you are supposed to predict absolue failure at anything, including winning games and drafting good players.

Yeah, really, what was he thinking?? Ha!

spdirty
04-05-2009, 11:01 AM
I would like to see all of 10 picks go on defensive players ....... Hillis as Starting running back ......

absolutely.

ColoradoDarin
04-05-2009, 11:02 AM
Armstrong Fail:

Denver for the first time in franchise history will have two first-rounders

2006 we held 2 1st rounders - both in the 20s IIRC, ours and the trade from the previous year to Washington (who took Jason Campbell). We traded with Atlanta to move up to #15, then with St Louis to get to #11.

BroncoBuff
04-05-2009, 11:03 AM
Jim Goodman was a wizard ... but with anybody else it'll be the same crapshoot it was before him. That's just logic.

We might get lucky with Kidd, we might nail 3 or 4 impact players with these 5 picks. But the far more likely scenario is one impact player and one or two contributors ... that's about the batting average we had under Shanahan in Rounds 1-3.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 11:13 AM
Jim Goodman was a wizard ... but with anybody else it'll be the same crapshoot it was before him. That's just logic.

We might get lucky with Kidd, we might nail 3 or 4 impact players with these 5 picks. But the far more likely scenario is one impact player and one or two contributors ... that's about the batting average we had under Shanahan in Rounds 1-3.

Bill Polian is a draft wizard. Goodman got lucky a couple of times. Anyway, the draft is a crapshoot for everybody. For every Hershel Walker there's an Archie Griffin. For every John Elway there's a Ryan Leaf. Make your prayers to this guy:
http://bendersbetterbrother.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/shona_witch_doctor_.jpg

Maybe he can cast a spell and bring us some luck. I'm going to sacrifice my neighbor's cat to the Draft Gods, or that damn flicker that keeps banging on my roof. ;D

BroncoBuff
04-05-2009, 11:24 AM
Bill Polian is a draft wizard. Goodman got lucky a couple of times. Anyway, the draft is a crapshoot for everybody. For every Hershel Walker there's an Archie Griffin. For every John Elway there's a Ryan Leaf. Make your prayers to this guy:
http://bendersbetterbrother.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/shona_witch_doctor_.jpg

Maybe he can cast a spell and bring us some luck. I'm going to sacrifice my neighbor's cat to the Draft Gods, or that damn flicker that keeps banging on my roof. ;D

I'll grant you the jury's still out on some of the players Goodman drafted (Larsen, Barrett, Jarvis), but to say Goodman just "got lucky a couple of times" is kinda silly there, Roh (or whoever you are).

Requiem
04-05-2009, 11:28 AM
Why would Goodman get all the credit for those selections? You realize that Shanahan ultimately made the final call on the selections and that there are other scouts and people within player personnel who go to the games, bowls and write the reports, right? Goodman getting praise for the drafts we've had lately is ****ing hilarious.

CHANGSTER
04-05-2009, 11:32 AM
Jim Goodman was a wizard ... but with anybody else it'll be the same crapshoot it was before him. That's just logic.

We might get lucky with Kidd, we might nail 3 or 4 impact players with these 5 picks. But the far more likely scenario is one impact player and one or two contributors ... that's about the batting average we had under Shanahan in Rounds 1-3.

A wizard drafting offense. Aside from Doom his defensive picks don't look to good at the moment. Maybe this new regime will be able to pull off a good defensive draft. Something Denver hasn't had in.... I honestly cant remember when they did.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 11:34 AM
I'll grant you the jury's still out on some of the players Goodman drafted (Larsen, Barrett, Jarvis), but to say Goodman just "got lucky a couple of times" is kinda silly there, Roh (or whoever you are).

Well, I realize that all the people that Bowlen fired were winged gods of gold, immaculate and perfect, and that we are now doomed to the subterranean darkness of failure til the end times, but a guy can hope. :sunshine:

MrPeepers
04-05-2009, 11:35 AM
Bill Polian is a draft wizard. Goodman got lucky a couple of times. Anyway, the draft is a crapshoot for everybody. For every Hershel Walker there's an Archie Griffin. For every John Elway there's a Ryan Leaf. Make your prayers to this guy:
http://bendersbetterbrother.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/shona_witch_doctor_.jpg

Maybe he can cast a spell and bring us some luck. I'm going to sacrifice my neighbor's cat to the Draft Gods, or that damn flicker that keeps banging on my roof. ;D

I have a whole family of flickers and nuthatches I will donate as well. Sure am glad I'm renting.

I think we could also stand to gain from these picks. I'm we are taking players because they are best available, but not filling a need position we may be trading around alot to store up more picks for next year. The push for us to get that quarterback may be next year and not this year. How many total picks are we on the books for next year?

Wes Mantooth
04-05-2009, 11:38 AM
Jesus christ, the most important draft in recent memory with the most ammunition in team history... and the scouting department is thin in the most important talent pools.

This just keeps getting better...

shake n' bake

ZONA
04-05-2009, 11:42 AM
If Raji is not there at #12 I try to trade back and pick up a high 2nd rounder for next year. Not too far back though, maybe to #16 but no further. At #16 and #18 I would like to land Tyson Jackson, Everette Brown. I think Jackson is going to be a nice safe pick who will start for years for us at DE and just lock down that side. I'm pretty sure he will be there still at #16. I don't see him as a bust at all, so that's my safe pick. I like Brown because of his upside. He is a physical beast with the potential to turn into a monster player. Brown could be gone though because somebody could also see that potential and ceiling. If he's gone, I go back and forth in my head between Jenkins and Davis. Gotta be either one of those guys.

TheDave
04-05-2009, 11:42 AM
Yes, a scouting department that utterly blew 8 of the last 10 drafts for us. Golly, what will we do?

You mean the ones that created 2 of the last 3 masterpieces... Point is I was talking about the Goodmans and the scouting staff, Not Shanahan.

Tyrant
04-05-2009, 11:57 AM
Bobby Beers was the only coach who recruited me out of high school when he was at Western Montana.

Based on that alone, we will not miss his judge of talent.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 12:15 PM
Bobby Beers was the only coach who recruited me out of high school when he was at Western Montana.

Based on that alone, we will not miss his judge of talent.

LOL


That reminds me of the old B movie actor Victor Mature's statement, "I'm no actor, and I've got 80 movies to prove it."

lex
04-05-2009, 12:18 PM
Jim Goodman was a wizard ... but with anybody else it'll be the same crapshoot it was before him. That's just logic.

We might get lucky with Kidd, we might nail 3 or 4 impact players with these 5 picks. But the far more likely scenario is one impact player and one or two contributors ... that's about the batting average we had under Shanahan in Rounds 1-3.

I dont think it will be close to as good as it was with Goodman and I dont think it will be close to as bad as it was with Sundquist. I really hope they keep their feet on the ground and take guys who are talented and who are in good standing. In other words, avoid guys who piss hot.

Rabb
04-05-2009, 12:34 PM
As opposed to the previous leadership and all their experience that couldn't put a respectable defense on the field over the past three years.

exactly

footstepsfrom#27
04-05-2009, 01:03 PM
Why would Goodman get all the credit for those selections? You realize that Shanahan ultimately made the final call on the selections and that there are other scouts and people within player personnel who go to the games, bowls and write the reports, right? Goodman getting praise for the drafts we've had lately is ****ing hilarious.
No it's not. Shanahan made the selections, but he chose from within the pool of players that the Goodman's placed on the team's selection board. Do you honestly think Shanahan evaluated these guys throughout the year? The success of the recent drafts as opposed to those before them had basically one thing in common, they were scouted and evaluated by the Goodman team. Those drafts focused on the offense because that's what Shanahan wanted, so the lack of drafting defensive players high is on him not on the Goodmans, who merely provided the scouting reports and recommendations.

It's foolish to fix what isnt' broken, more foolish to provide a solution with untested people. If the rookie coach/GM fail to live up to the success that we had the last couple of seasons in the draft, I promise you...the orange colored glasses on this board will dissapear in short order.

Requiem
04-05-2009, 01:07 PM
Goodman, along with a whole scouting staff and player personnel department did the reports on the players. Do you honestly believe that the Goodman's deserve all the credit for the "good" drafts? Nope. It's easy to place all the praise or blame on one person though.

Man-Goblin
04-05-2009, 01:21 PM
Other candidates at No. 18: Cincinnati defensive end-outside linebacker Conner Barwin, who led the Big East in sacks, and Ohio State cornerback Malcolm Jenkins, who, like Raji, has had a private workout for the Broncos. Another candidate, Texas defensive end Brian Orakpo, has a private Broncos workout scheduled, according to NFL.com.

Orakpo at 18? Buah.

footstepsfrom#27
04-05-2009, 01:25 PM
Goodman, along with a whole scouting staff and player personnel department did the reports on the players. Do you honestly believe that the Goodman's deserve all the credit for the "good" drafts? Nope. It's easy to place all the praise or blame on one person though.
Everything rises and falls on leadership, which has been shockingly absent in the last few weeks, so whose fault is that?

All the credit or blame on the Goodman's? No. But the fact that they obviously seemed to be getting it right over the last 3 drafts should have been a clear indication that things were moving in the right direction. Wtih a new coach on board why would you tamper with that?

Bowlen's entirely lost my respect because he's become a liar like Jerry Jones. On January 12th he said that the front office would be kept and no changes would be made. Obviously that was bullcrap, which is why I don't believe anything he says about Cutler either. He's proving that he can't be trusted and frankly, I think he's awakened to the idea that his ego feels good getting his hands on things.

Next he'll be telling us he's in charge of "socks 'n jocks" too.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 01:52 PM
Everything rises and falls on leadership, which has been shockingly absent in the last few weeks, so whose fault is that?

All the credit or blame on the Goodman's? No. But the fact that they obviously seemed to be getting it right over the last 3 drafts should have been a clear indication that things were moving in the right direction. Wtih a new coach on board why would you tamper with that?

Bowlen's entirely lost my respect because he's become a liar like Jerry Jones. On January 12th he said that the front office would be kept and no changes would be made. Obviously that was bullcrap, which is why I don't believe anything he says about Cutler either. He's proving that he can't be trusted and frankly, I think he's awakened to the idea that his ego feels good getting his hands on things.

Next he'll be telling us he's in charge of "socks 'n jocks" too.

Look on the bright side. If this draft is a total failure and the team goes into the tank for years, you can tell everybody I told you so and celebrate.

cutthemdown
04-05-2009, 01:57 PM
I would like to see all of 10 picks go on defensive players ....... Hillis as Starting running back ......

I think 7 defense 3 offense. We need a young center and IMO will also take a QB.

IMO we could take Sanchez with the 12th pick if he slips that far.

We might even trade another pick to move up and get him.

cutthemdown
04-05-2009, 02:00 PM
Look on the bright side. If this draft is a total failure and the team goes into the tank for years, you can tell everybody I told you so and celebrate.

I just don't get people. Cutler obviously decided to play for Denver he wanted a huge new deal. Trust me if after the trade talks Cutler had gotten pissed, and Broncos countered with a new 7 yr 100 million dollar deal Cutler would be a Bronco right now. Instead Cutler felt no reason to play in Denver anymore, no coach, no qb coach, no big new deal, team not winning.

With his health issues, ball control issues, personality disorders, it was not safe giving him a huge deal until he won a playoff game or proved he can go 4-5 games in a row without a turnover.

footstepsfrom#27
04-05-2009, 02:03 PM
Look on the bright side. If this draft is a total failure and the team goes into the tank for years, you can tell everybody I told you so and celebrate.
Stupid comment.

My point continues to be that to many people in this place celebrate whatever is happening at the moment, regardless of how stupid in the name of being a "good fan"...whatever. I just call it like I see it. You can't tell me you're not concerned about having total novices in charge of this draft.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 02:09 PM
Stupid comment.

My point continues to be that to many people in this place celebrate whatever is happening at the moment, regardless of how stupid in the name of being a "good fan"...whatever. I just call it like I see it. You can't tell me you're not concerned about having total novices in charge of this draft.

I think, number one, what's done is done. Time to move on. If not, this whole mess turns into the OM version of the Grassy Knoll; An unsolvable conspiracy that polarizes the site. Second, it's ridiculous to state that "novices" are in charge of our draft. The overwhelming majority of the scout staff is still here, and has been here for many years. McD, Xander and Nolan have been involved in years worth of drafts. The strength of McD's resume is his ability to evaluate and coach talent. I say give him a chance and let's see some results before passing judgment.

Bronx33
04-05-2009, 02:18 PM
I think, number one, what's done is done. Time to move on. If not, this whole mess turns into the OM version of the Grassy Knoll; An unsolvable conspiracy that polarizes the site. Second, it's ridiculous to state that "novices" are in charge of our draft. The overwhelming majority of the scout staff is still here, and has been here for many years. McD, Xander and Nolan have been involved in years worth of drafts. The strength of McD's resume is his ability to evaluate and coach talent. I say give him a chance and let's see some results before passing judgment.


Fair enough..

BroncoBuff
04-05-2009, 07:06 PM
Why would Goodman get all the credit for those selections? You realize that Shanahan ultimately made the final call on the selections and that there are other scouts and people within player personnel who go to the games, bowls and write the reports, right? Goodman getting praise for the drafts we've had lately is ****ing hilarious.
Good point ... can't credit him for first rounders like Cutler, Moss or Clady, those were surely Mike's calls. But the mid-late rounds picks are easily and accurately attributed to Goodman, even by Mike. Elvis Dumervil, Spencer Larsen, Brandon Marshall, Chris Kuper, Peyton Hillis, Josh Barrett, Carlton Powell, Marcush Thomas, Ryan Harris, Domenik Hixon. I'm thinking he had some input on 2nd rounders, too, Scheffler, Crowder and Royal.

I hate to disagree with NewRohirrim, but that is not just "getting lucky a few times," that is one hellaciously successful run ...

BroncoBuff
04-05-2009, 07:08 PM
All the credit or blame on the Goodman's? No. But the fact that they obviously seemed to be getting it right over the last 3 drafts should have been a clear indication that things were moving in the right direction. Wtih a new coach on board why would you tamper with that?

There is a TREMENDOUS amount of truth in that post ... rep.

BroncoFiend
04-05-2009, 08:24 PM
I must admit, this draft makes me nervous. The extra ammo we have puts a lot of pressure on this one being a success, and the fact is there is little experience heading this up.

I feel pretty good about McD the coach, but he simply never had to evaluate college talent, and I still don't know a thing about Xanders.

I do fully expect them to keep all of their top five picks and use most on D.

Archer81
04-05-2009, 08:26 PM
We'll see how it goes. I am sure these two men (McDaniels and Xanders) are totally blind to the process and never spent one second on player evaluation...ever.

:Broncos:

BroncoBuff
04-05-2009, 08:31 PM
You mean the ones that created 2 of the last 3 masterpieces.

The 2007 draft was a big success, I think, at least by Jim Goodman. Ryan Harris and Marcus Thomas are both 10+ year pillars of granite, and they were the back 2 of 4 picks - more likely to be Goodman's work.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 08:45 PM
I hate to disagree with NewRohirrim, but that is not just "getting lucky a few times," that is one hellaciously successful run ...

I have no idea what you mean by this. Clue me in. ???

baja
04-05-2009, 09:03 PM
I have no idea what you mean by this. Clue me in. ???

It means that when he agreed with you on most issues he loved your posts and thought you were cool but now that you are on the opposing sides of this emotional issue that makes you a douche bag thus the newRohirrim

Drek
04-05-2009, 09:07 PM
Good point ... can't credit him for first rounders like Cutler, Moss or Clady, those were surely Mike's calls. But the mid-late rounds picks are easily and accurately attributed to Goodman, even by Mike. Elvis Dumervil, Spencer Larsen, Brandon Marshall, Chris Kuper, Peyton Hillis, Josh Barrett, Carlton Powell, Marcush Thomas, Ryan Harris, Domenik Hixon. I'm thinking he had some input on 2nd rounders, too, Scheffler, Crowder and Royal.

I hate to disagree with NewRohirrim, but that is not just "getting lucky a few times," that is one hellaciously successful run ...

Kuper, Scheffler, and Hixon were drafted when Goodman was still an assistant below Sundquist, from regions he never scouted.

He can get credit for Cutler, Dumervil, and Marshall because he was in charge of the southeast scouting at the time, but the others he didn't have much of anything to do with.

As for Larsen, Barrett, Powell, Thomas, and Hillis, lets see them be consistent NFL players before we write them down as great picks. Even still, someone else scouted them and reported back to Jim Goodman for him to then make his decisions on, as the VP of Football Ops doesn't actually go barn storming himself (nor does the Asst. GM, like Jeff Goodman was).

The 2007 draft was a big success, I think, at least by Jim Goodman. Ryan Harris and Marcus Thomas are both 10+ year pillars of granite, and they were the back 2 of 4 picks - more likely to be Goodman's work.

I was a big Ryan Harris fan coming out of college (largely because I'm something of an ND homer), but he wasn't some miracle pick. If he came out as a junior he was a 1st round pick. If he'd stayed healthy and played his senior year he probably would've been a top 15 pick. Most knew the talent and skill set was there, he was just a big health risk. He played great last year but that will continue to be the question with Harris until we see multiple healthy seasons in a row from him.

As for Marcus Thomas, he's shown flashes but he shouldn't be starting on any defense in this league. He should be a rotational player working his way into a bigger role. The fact that he was used as a cornerstone of our DL last year shows just how bad off we were defensively.

Rohirrim
04-05-2009, 09:21 PM
It means that when he agreed with you on most issues he loved your posts and thought you were cool but now that you are on the opposing sides of this emotional issue that makes you a douche bag thus the newRohirrim

Ahhh. Gracias.

Atlas
04-05-2009, 09:27 PM
Look on the bright side. If this draft is a total failure and the team goes into the tank for years, you can tell everybody I told you so and celebrate.

That's what I'm going to do!!!

lex
04-05-2009, 09:53 PM
Good point ... can't credit him for first rounders like Cutler, Moss or Clady, those were surely Mike's calls. But the mid-late rounds picks are easily and accurately attributed to Goodman, even by Mike. Elvis Dumervil, Spencer Larsen, Brandon Marshall, Chris Kuper, Peyton Hillis, Josh Barrett, Carlton Powell, Marcush Thomas, Ryan Harris, Domenik Hixon. I'm thinking he had some input on 2nd rounders, too, Scheffler, Crowder and Royal.

I hate to disagree with NewRohirrim, but that is not just "getting lucky a few times," that is one hellaciously successful run ...

Yeah, its true that there were scouts he relied on but knowing who to listen to and how to prioritize everything when coordinating the whole process is a credit to Goodman and a huge part of it. Thats why he supplanted Sundquist.

tsiguy96
04-05-2009, 10:06 PM
Stupid comment.

My point continues to be that to many people in this place celebrate whatever is happening at the moment, regardless of how stupid in the name of being a "good fan"...whatever. I just call it like I see it. You can't tell me you're not concerned about having total novices in charge of this draft.

some of us try to enjoy all things broncos, its entertainment. it gives us something to do, something that we can root for and hope does good. what im NOT going to do is sit here on a message board and bitch about how bad they are going to be and try and get all down on the team when i can just as easily look forward to every game they play.

so you have fun with your constant doom and gloom scenarios, i will do what makes sense, and its not being a negative nancy to every single thing that they do.

Requiem
04-06-2009, 08:27 AM
Good point ... can't credit him for first rounders like Cutler, Moss or Clady, those were surely Mike's calls. But the mid-late rounds picks are easily and accurately attributed to Goodman, even by Mike. Elvis Dumervil, Spencer Larsen, Brandon Marshall, Chris Kuper, Peyton Hillis, Josh Barrett, Carlton Powell, Marcush Thomas, Ryan Harris, Domenik Hixon. I'm thinking he had some input on 2nd rounders, too, Scheffler, Crowder and Royal.

I hate to disagree with NewRohirrim, but that is not just "getting lucky a few times," that is one hellaciously successful run ...

Cutler, Clady, Kuper, Marshall, Royal, Harris and Scheffler highlight that all. Cutler isn't here -- and Scheffler could be on his way out. Draft successes (for the most part) sure. Interestingly enough, they are all from regions where the Goodman's weren't regional scouts. (Well, besides Marshall) Jury is still out on Larsen, Hillis, Barrett, Powell, Crowder and Thomas (Thomas has been a starter for us, but I believe he's still an average player.) so I wouldn't even include them in that run.

Fact is, teams should get two quality players in each of their drafts. Denver has been able to do that the past several years it seems. Whether it is because of better pick position, more picks, the Goodman's, whatever -- who knows for sure. However, I am fairly certain it is safe to say that there are other who deserves "atta boys" for their work scouting than just the Goodman Trio.

I honestly think we'll be fine without them.

WolfpackGuy
04-06-2009, 08:31 AM
Key word in the title is "could."
I just hope the front office doesn't screw this up.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 08:33 AM
Stupid comment.

My point continues to be that to many people in this place celebrate whatever is happening at the moment, regardless of how stupid in the name of being a "good fan"...whatever. I just call it like I see it. You can't tell me you're not concerned about having total novices in charge of this draft.

Who are these total novices? Don't make me laugh. Josh is experienced and knows what he's looking for, Nolan is experienced and knows what he's looking for, the ST coach is experienced and knows what he's looking for. Scouts just report the facts on a player. As for the Goodmans, like Shanny they probably got too big for their britches.

Denver was very smart to make this trade fast. Cutler wasn't going to fit in this year, he would have made a nuisance of himself all year, I bet, trying to undermine the coaching staff.

By making the trade early, they have three weeks to evaluate what they want with the extra picks, and groom Orton into the system.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 08:38 AM
Judging by Angelo's reports on dealing with the Broncos during the latest firestorm, McD keeps his cool under pressure. Bronco fans should be giving McD a high five for the trade he pulled off. Perhaps they will down the road. The #12 pick is a great spot to be in. The rumor mill says that Freeman is climbing the boards. Imagine sitting there at 12 and Sanchez and Freeman are still on the board. You have three teams likely bidding for that 12 spot. If there's not somebody there the Broncos are dying to bring in, they could pull down another first, a third, and maybe another pick next year. Imagine having three firsts in the bottom third of the first round! Clay Matthews, Ayers, maybe Tyson, Barwin. Damn! You could come out of the gate with some pretty solid talent.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 08:41 AM
The 2007 draft was a big success, I think, at least by Jim Goodman. Ryan Harris and Marcus Thomas are both 10+ year pillars of granite, and they were the back 2 of 4 picks - more likely to be Goodman's work.

Oh boy, that's great spin and great for a laugh. Harris was drafted with a bad back, dude. Everybody knew he had a bad back, and in fact had back surgery the year he was drafted, so that was just a crapshoot. Thomas a "pillar of granite"? Please. Oh boy, that post was rich.

55CrushEm
04-06-2009, 08:50 AM
I think 7 defense 3 offense. We need a young center and IMO will also take a QB.

IMO we could take Sanchez with the 12th pick if he slips that far.

We might even trade another pick to move up and get him.

You don't think Kory Lichtensteiger could be the guy ?

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 11:11 AM
Oh boy, that's great spin and great for a laugh. Harris was drafted with a bad back, dude. Everybody knew he had a bad back, and in fact had back surgery the year he was drafted, so that was just a crapshoot. Thomas a "pillar of granite"? Please. Oh boy, that post was rich.

You mis-read my entire post, Cito, lemme try again: My opinion is that Ryan Harris and Marcus Thomas will be starting and playing very well for many years to come (that's all I meant by "pillars"). And those two were half the 2007 draft. So Goodman's batting average that year was .500.

In fact, I'd say he went 2 for 4 with 2 home runs. Why? Because long-term starters drafted after the first two rounds are not just singles or doubles, they're home runs. MT is a born 3-4 DE, just watch. In my opinion.

That's my opinion .... what's so wrong with it?

ayjackson
04-06-2009, 11:24 AM
We need a Cowboys' circa 2005 draft. That draft produced their 2008 starting front three, in Canty, Ratliff and Spears, as well as Demarcus Ware and nickel LB, Kevin Burnett. Why not throw in a pro-bowl running back too (Barber).

That's what we need.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 11:36 AM
My point continues to be that to many people in this place celebrate whatever is happening at the moment, regardless of how stupid in the name of being a "good fan"...whatever. I just call it like I see it.

Rep. Guys on this board are so quick to fall into line, to avoid dissent. Those of us who are skeptical about Josh are just as good of fans as those who support Josh no questions asked. I'm tired of this George W. Bush "you're with us or you're with the terrorists" attitude.


You can't tell me you're not concerned about having total novices in charge of this draft.

Double rep.

I hope to the stars above that Josh and his pet boy Brian draft a couple-three killer players with the Bears' picks.

But these are total novices. Josh has never drafted a player before. Plus these are just mid-first round picks, so I'm hoping for Ryan Clady/Al Wilson types ... hoping against George Foster/Willie Middlebrooks types ... and predicting D.J. Williams/Ashley Lelie types.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 11:40 AM
Judging by Angelo's reports on dealing with the Broncos during the latest firestorm, McD keeps his cool under pressure. Bronco fans should be giving McD a high five for the trade he pulled off. Perhaps they will down the road. The #12 pick is a great spot to be in. The rumor mill says that Freeman is climbing the boards. Imagine sitting there at 12 and Sanchez and Freeman are still on the board. You have three teams likely bidding for that 12 spot. If there's not somebody there the Broncos are dying to bring in, they could pull down another first, a third, and maybe another pick next year. Imagine having three firsts in the bottom third of the first round! Clay Matthews, Ayers, maybe Tyson, Barwin. Damn! You could come out of the gate with some pretty solid talent.

Yup.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 11:46 AM
Rep. Guys on this board are so quick to fall into line, to avoid dissent. Those of us who are skeptical about Josh are just as good of fans as those who support Josh no questions asked. I'm tired of this George W. Bush "you're with us or you're with the terrorists" attitude.




Double rep.

I hope to the stars above that Josh and his pet boy Brian draft a couple-three killer players with the Bears' picks.

But these are total novices. Josh has never drafted a player before. Plus these are just mid-first round picks, so I'm hoping for Ryan Clady/Al Wilson types ... hoping against George Foster/Willie Middlebrooks types ... and predicting D.J. Williams/Ashley Lelie types.

Jeez, I used to think Rev was the king sophist on this board, but your sophistry is really superb lately, so I'm undecided.

RMT
04-06-2009, 11:49 AM
i can agree that it's a bit of a concern to have "novices" in charge of our draft this year, but Shanahan and all of his "experience" didn't amount to many reputable picks over the years, especially in the early rounds.

and that doesn't take into account some of the huge misses in free agency.

i'm cautiously optimistic and not naive to think there will be some big misses, too, but i can't imagine the misses being much greater than the ones during Shanahan's tenure.

Rohirrim
04-06-2009, 11:53 AM
I have looked into the Palantir. When the Broncos are on the clock, I see Goodell walking to the podium and making the announcement...







"I have a trade to announce. The Denver Broncos... " ;D

baja
04-06-2009, 12:31 PM
We need a Cowboys' circa 2005 draft. That draft produced their 2008 starting front three, in Canty, Ratliff and Spears, as well as Demarcus Ware and nickel LB, Kevin Burnett. Why not throw in a pro-bowl running back too (Barber).

That's what we need.

No way! Is that true?

If so I think the Broncos should call a presser and fire Shanahan again.

Broncos4tw
04-06-2009, 12:36 PM
I'm a bit worried honestly, they fired everyone who knows squat about drafting. I mean, these guys are not clueless obviously, but I doubt they are they most savvy folks on the floor come draft day. And even with that, you are lucky if 50% of your players pan out at all.

And after this fiasco, we reaaally need a solid draft. I'll be watching, holding my breath come draft day(s).

jutang
04-06-2009, 01:37 PM
I'm worried that the biggest loss of this off season will be Jim Goodman. While he might not deserve all the credit, the track record when he showed up and the track record during Sundquist's era is remarkable.

The Broncos really have to hit 50% or better in the next two drafts or their going be bottom dwellers for a while.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 01:56 PM
You mis-read my entire post, Cito, lemme try again: My opinion is that Ryan Harris and Marcus Thomas will be starting and playing very well for many years to come (that's all I meant by "pillars"). And those two were half the 2007 draft. So Goodman's batting average that year was .500.

In fact, I'd say he went 2 for 4 with 2 home runs. Why? Because long-term starters drafted after the first two rounds are not just singles or doubles, they're home runs. MT is a born 3-4 DE, just watch. In my opinion.

That's my opinion .... what's so wrong with it?

That's better than the first one, for sure. But don't get too carried away with this followup to your first post concerning Thomas and Harris. I'm not gonna rag on either of those guys, but I'm not gonna call them home runs right now either. Now Harris, bad back and all, he did a good job in 2008. Thomas, I doubt if he would say himself he did a good job since he's been here.

jutang
04-06-2009, 02:03 PM
Thomas, I doubt if he would say himself he did a good job since he's been here.

Thomas has not been arrested and failed any drug tests (knock on wood)... he's exceeded my expectations.

Cito Pelon
04-06-2009, 02:22 PM
I'm worried that the biggest loss of this off season will be Jim Goodman. While he might not deserve all the credit, the track record when he showed up and the track record during Sundquist's era is remarkable.

The Broncos really have to hit 50% or better in the next two drafts or their going be bottom dwellers for a while.

I'll grant you that Denver made some good picks from 2006-2008 with Jay, Marshall, Royal, Shefller, Larsen, Clady, Kuper, Elvis, Kory, Hillis. But that's it. That's all they got out of 20 picks.

Denver had 20 draft picks from 2006-2008, 10 of them made an impact on a mediocre team, only 7 of them could displace starters.

I do agree that Denver should make the most of all these picks in the next two years.

But let's not pretend like they have to meet some great almighty standards set by the Goodmans. Please.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 03:26 PM
That's better than the first one, for sure. But don't get too carried away with this followup to your first post concerning Thomas and Harris. I'm not gonna rag on either of those guys, but I'm not gonna call them home runs right now either. Now Harris, bad back and all, he did a good job in 2008. Thomas, I doubt if he would say himself he did a good job since he's been here.

You're a tad skeptical there ... I think the consensus (if not unanimous) opinion is that Ryan Harris was gangbusters this year.

You're way too hard on MT imo ... he's been starting most of his first two years here. For any 4th round pick, starting most of your first two years is a home run. PFW Whispers said some good things about him during last season, too, and it seems he's a perfect fit for a 3-4 DE, he's a solid DT body type with plenty of quickness/penetration skills. I'll betcha he's pencilled in right now as a starting DE.