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Popps
04-04-2009, 12:28 AM
People have generally liked his coverage. He's been pretty forthcoming, perhaps even too much for his own good. But, if nothing else, he's been on the inside and approached things from a pretty neutral perspective.

Here's his take...

Stefan Fatsis on the Broncos and Jay Cutler
By STEFAN FATSIS

The saga of the Denver Broncos and Jay Cutler is like the childrenís song about the old lady who swallowed a fly. You can find a reason for every decision, but you still might not ever know why.

In this case, the first swallow was Broncos owner Pat Bowlen firing Coach Mike Shanahan. The decision to break up after 14 seasons wasnít driven by a perception of a diminution in the coachís football skills. Bowlen told me he still respected those. But it wasnít a spontaneous act based on the teamís late-season collapse in 2008, either. Instead, the owner and others in the organization began to feel that Shanahanís my-way operating style had lost some of its effectiveness, in the front office and with the players.

Bowlen over the years had gradually ceded to Shanahan virtually all operating control of the team. After three mediocre seasons in a row ó a 24-24 record; no playoff appearances ó he decided this was as good a time as any to rebrand and possibly revive his business.

One other overlooked factor: Bowlen is 65. Heíd like the franchise to be in a stable place for an ownership transition in the next few years to one of his seven children. I got to know Bowlen well during the summer I spent as a kicker with the Broncos to write a book about the NFL. He doesnít want to be like Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson, presiding over his team, even as a figurehead, at age 90. I also know Bowlen to be thoughtful, reasonable and sensible ó and tough when he needs to be. He trusts the people he has hired ó leaving the football decisions to the football people and business decisions to the business people ó and weighs in when necessary. That was less and less under Shanahan. He wanted a more active role in his final years as owner.

In Josh McDaniels, Bowlen chose to succeed Shanahan a coach schooled in New Englandís disciplined methodology. McDaniels analyzed every player on the Broncos, examining footage and reading reports prepared by his staff. He made some small, head-scratching decisions, like dumping reliable and hard-working (not to mention mature and intelligent) Shanahan holdovers like Mike Leach, the long snapper, and Nate Jackson, a tight end and special teamer. (Disclosure: Both are friends of mine.) He dumped assistant coaches. He rearranged the furniture, literally, at the Broncosí suburban headquarters. As I type this, just eight players, three assistant coaches and three football executives remain from the time I spent with the team in 2006.

Jay Cutler wasnít spared scrutiny, nor should he have been. Which leads to a question that few people seem to be asking: Why would McDaniels have considered trading Cutler in the first place? I donít know the coach, but I know how NFL front offices operate. Itís incumbent on team executives to pick up the phone when other teams call. Itís incumbent on them to listen. Itís not incumbent on them to do more than say, thanks, but no thanks. In this instance, McDaniels was contacted about acquiring his former quarterback in New England, Matt Cassel. Proposals were made. How far they got, and how aggressive the Broncos were about encouraging them, only the participants know for sure.

Should Jay Cutler and his agent, Bus Cook, have been insulted that these conversations took place? Of course not. Coaches and general managers have a responsibility, akin to a CEOís fiduciary responsibility, to consider anything that might improve their team. What I know based on talking to some of my former Broncos colleagues is that, well before this drama erupted, Cook and Cutler wanted to renegotiate the quarterbackís six-year contract, which has three years left. The current deal included $15 million in guaranteed payments. Cutler was paid a $1.275 million roster bonus in 2006 and a $7.9 million option bonus in 2007. But his base salaries are, by Pro Bowl-quarterback standards, meager, and a $12 million performance bonus isnít due until 2011.

Ted Sundquist, the Broncosí general manager when I was with the team, told me at the time that, because of the large lump-sum, back-end payout, the contract would probably be restructured before it expires. He said Bus Cook also expected that to happen. Did Cutler and Cook manufacture their hurt feelings over McDanielsís trade talks and the coachís subsequent ineffectual spin in an effort to get a new contract now, or get to another city that would give them one? I donít know. But they certainly saw an opening.

Still, issues over money and bruised egos are addressed and massaged every day in pro sports. The Broncos didnít have to publicly announce that they wanted to trade Cutler. He was an employee under contract. He would have found a way to sublimate his wounded feelings and show up for mandatory training or risk watching Chris Simms take snaps in September. But at some point, possibly just this week, possibly as long ago as January, the Broncos concluded that they would be better off in the long run ó on the field and as a business ó with a quarterback other than Cutler.

So why did they swallow that fly? I met Cutler when he was the first-round draft choice in 2006 who was expected to ride the bench for a couple of years behind Jake Plummer and then lead Denver for a decade or more. The new Elway! Finally! But Cutler is virtually absent from my book. Thatís because he was uncompelling journalistically and off-putting personally. I sought out players who thought deeply and were interested in explaining the physical and emotional realities of playing in the NFL. That wasnít Cutler. His demeanor often was that of a bored, eye-rolling teenage girl, with a dash of smugness for good measure. Since then, Iíve received unflattering reports about his behavior and indifferent-to-negative ones about his relationship with his teammates.

Should those sorts of perceptions outweigh a laser arm on a 25-year-old body and 4,500 passing yards and 13-1 record in games in which his team gave up no more than 21 points and any of the other stats rolled out by his supporters? Certainly not. But football teams, like other businesses, consist of human beings whose ability to interact is integral to their success. And no human being is more important to the success of a football team than the quarterback. Josh McDaniels may be young and inexperienced, but heís not dumb. He didnít want to sabotage his new team, or his own future. So something else must have been going on.

Hereís a radical thought: Maybe McJayGate, as the Denver press dubbed it, wasnít about who dissed whom or who ignored whose text messages or whether a new coach has to earn the respect of his players. Maybe it was about something more prosaic but also more substantial: the future of the team. Maybe Pat Bowlen, Josh McDaniels and other team officials examined Cutlerís statistics, his physical traits, his emotional temperament, his suitability to the coachís offensive system, his leadership ability, his off-field behavior and his overall attitude ó including the evolution of his relationship with his new boss. And then they decided that the Denver Broncos had a greater chance of winning with someone else in the huddle. Even someone named Kyle Orton.

watermock
04-04-2009, 12:40 AM
Too bad Jake is playing handball and it isn't with himself.

TDmvp
04-04-2009, 12:43 AM
His book is worth reading ...
For those who do that type thing.

cutthemdown
04-04-2009, 12:45 AM
Great article written by someone who for sure does know Broncos players, former GMS, former coaches, all of them.

I'm really starting to feel Broncos jumped of Cutler at the right time. 4500 yrds and 25 tds may be the best he ever does. Cutler better wise up and stop being a jerk to everyone unless he wins Superbowls and really fast. He gets to yr 5, yr 6, and nothing, people will start to hate on him more and more.

How long before the first negative story on Cutler comes out of Da Bearland?

I give it only a few more weeks unless the Bears give Cutler a big new deal.

cutthemdown
04-04-2009, 12:46 AM
His book is worth reading ...
For those who do that type thing.

Most of the people on this board would need the spoken version.

Too bad it was done by Sharpe and no one can understand it. ;D

Tyrant
04-04-2009, 12:48 AM
Great book -- facinating read on the inner workings of an NFL franchise. Funny thing, he wrote it coming off the AFC Championship run, but you could tell from his book that the franchise was heading in a bad direction. Shanny wasn't connecting with the players...the Plummer situation was about to implode.

Looking back in hind sight, there's a lot of little signs even then that foreshadowed where we are now.

worm
04-04-2009, 12:50 AM
His book is worth reading ...
For those who do that type thing.

Is it bolded, highlighted and underlined so I know what parts I should be paying better attention to?

Popps
04-04-2009, 01:02 AM
Is it bolded, highlighted and underlined so I know what parts I should be paying better attention to?

Generally, with regards to long articles... posters may choose to highlight interesting segments, as so many of these articles say the same thing.

Beyond that, some people may not have time to read every article in every post.

So, yea... people sometimes do this. In fact, often.

Hope that helps.

worm
04-04-2009, 01:17 AM
Hope that helps.

Ataboy. You are providing a valuable service to the Mane. :thumbsup:

These bible code articles can be tough to decipher.

I would have screwed it all up because some of those quotes are not the ones I would have highlighted at all.

Popps
04-04-2009, 01:21 AM
Ataboy. You are providing a valuable service to the Mane. :thumbsup:

These bible code articles can be tough to decipher.

I would have screwed it all up because some of those quotes are not the ones I would have highlighted at all.



Let's talk more about bolding letters.

You go first.

watermock
04-04-2009, 01:22 AM
Shouldn't we be talking about current QB's?

So, this guy was in Dove Valley WHEN? and in training camp no less.

Popps
04-04-2009, 01:27 AM
Shouldn't we be talking about current QB's?

So, this guy was in Dove Valley WHEN? and in training camp no less.

He's talking about our most recent starting QB, yes. He's had extensive contact with Cutler and shares close ties with the team, including mutual friends with Cutler.

BroncoMan4ever
04-04-2009, 01:32 AM
Great article written by someone who for sure does know Broncos players, former GMS, former coaches, all of them.

I'm really starting to feel Broncos jumped of Cutler at the right time. 4500 yrds and 25 tds may be the best he ever does. Cutler better wise up and stop being a jerk to everyone unless he wins Superbowls and really fast. He gets to yr 5, yr 6, and nothing, people will start to hate on him more and more.

How long before the first negative story on Cutler comes out of Da Bearland?

I give it only a few more weeks unless the Bears give Cutler a big new deal.

he won't be torn down in Chicago for a long while. they have gone through almost 25 years of suck at the QB position and with a young pro bowler, he will get time before he is bashed. (McMahon wasn't that great, but he won a super bowl, and due to that is the best the franchise has had in years.)

the soonest he will get bashed in Chicago is when he loses a game for the team, or plays terribly, otherwise he will probably be fine and loved there

Popps
04-04-2009, 01:36 AM
he won't be torn down in Chicago for a long while. they have gone through almost 25 years of suck at the QB position and with a young pro bowler, he will get time before he is bashed. (McMahon wasn't that great, but he won a super bowl, and due to that is the best the franchise has had in years.)

the soonest he will get bashed in Chicago is when he loses a game for the team, or plays terribly, otherwise he will probably be fine and loved there

Agree to a point. Talked to some Chicago guys the past couple of days, and they are indeed stoked... to say the least.

But, the flipside of that is if Jay doesn't live up to this messiah status he's coming to town carrying. I do think there is going to be an enormous amount of pressure on him. We'll see how he handles it.

cutthemdown
04-04-2009, 01:53 AM
he won't be torn down in Chicago for a long while. they have gone through almost 25 years of suck at the QB position and with a young pro bowler, he will get time before he is bashed. (McMahon wasn't that great, but he won a super bowl, and due to that is the best the franchise has had in years.)

the soonest he will get bashed in Chicago is when he loses a game for the team, or plays terribly, otherwise he will probably be fine and loved there

You are crazy. They gave up 3 high draft picks for him. No way he gets much leeway. He will be expected to win, and win next yr. If he doesn't he will be expected to win in 2010. By that time if he hasn't taken the Bears far into the playoffs they will start to question whether he was worth it.

I still say Jay will be under immense pressure to win. Not just from Chicago, but from the NFL media and culture. Trust me he doesn't win this kid won't want to give an interview.

People don't like Cutler, Chicago may like that type of personality, they probably will love him for a couple yrs, after that he has to win a Superbowl or at least get close.

watermock
04-04-2009, 01:55 AM
He's talking about our most recent starting QB, yes. He's had extensive contact with Cutler and shares close ties with the team, including mutual friends with Cutler.

In '06 training camp.

baja
04-04-2009, 01:55 AM
Here’s a radical thought: Maybe McJayGate, as the Denver press dubbed it, wasn’t about who dissed whom or who ignored whose text messages or whether a new coach has to earn the respect of his players. Maybe it was about something more prosaic but also more substantial: the future of the team. Maybe Pat Bowlen, Josh McDaniels and other team officials examined Cutler’s statistics, his physical traits, his emotional temperament, his suitability to the coach’s offensive system, his leadership ability, his off-field behavior and his overall attitude — including the evolution of his relationship with his new boss. And then they decided that the Denver Broncos had a greater chance of winning with someone else in the huddle. Even someone named Kyle Orton.

This is what it looks like to me and I am relieved that we shipped Jay and got a shiit load of picks and a decent QB that is a team leader and a winner and best of all a team player..

watermock
04-04-2009, 01:59 AM
I don't think anyone has argued we did not get compensation, considering Bowlen's blowup and people thinking we would trade him for a first and a bag of beans.

BroncoMan4ever
04-04-2009, 02:02 AM
You are crazy. They gave up 3 high draft picks for him. No way he gets much leeway. He will be expected to win, and win next yr. If he doesn't he will be expected to win in 2010. By that time if he hasn't taken the Bears far into the playoffs they will start to question whether he was worth it.

I still say Jay will be under immense pressure to win. Not just from Chicago, but from the NFL media and culture. Trust me he doesn't win this kid won't want to give an interview.

People don't like Cutler, Chicago may like that type of personality, they probably will love him for a couple yrs, after that he has to win a Superbowl or at least get close.

Agree to a point. Talked to some Chicago guys the past couple of days, and they are indeed stoked... to say the least.

But, the flipside of that is if Jay doesn't live up to this messiah status he's coming to town carrying. I do think there is going to be an enormous amount of pressure on him. We'll see how he handles it.

i agree with what you are saying about the almost immediate pressure on him to get there and win right away.

however, a QB is only as good as his weapons, and because of that, i think the fans will give him a break this season until the team gets some receiving weapons around him.

i agree however, that like every team that has a main goal of a Super Bowl win, the fans will grow restless if Cutler isn't getting the job done.

but if he gets Chicago a playoff appearance and shows he can get his team into the playoffs every year, he will become a God in Chicago

cutthemdown
04-04-2009, 02:03 AM
Hard to add good WR without drafting them. Most of the ones available seem to be malcontents or older guys.

I agree though no reason Cutler can't play well enough for the fans to give him a couple yrs. My point was more a couple yrs will be yr 5 for Cutler. By yr five you haven't done anything people will start to whisper...........can't win the big game!!!

broncocalijohn
04-04-2009, 03:17 AM
His book is worth reading ...
For those who do that type thing.

Ill wait for the movie. TV movie i hope so i dont have to get off the couch.

Broncomutt
04-04-2009, 03:40 AM
OMG that was a good read!!

Victor
04-04-2009, 05:47 AM
Nice article...thanks for posting.

I live in Chicago now, moved here last summer, so I was able to catch Jay's radio interview. He made a point of thanking "Mr. Bowlen" the city of Denver and the fans of the Broncos. He took the high road and said the right things.

I'm hoping for everyone's sake that Cutler learns a few things from going through this. He's a smart kid, but a kid none the less. Cutler said that if they could have a do-over both sides would probably make different decisions.

I wish him the best, I hope he matures (I expect he will) and that he has a great career. I hope that the Broncos draft really well and come out of this stronger. What can I say...I'm an optimist...the glass is more than half full.

vancejohnson82
04-04-2009, 06:46 AM
wow....talk about gettin it all out there

if these kinds of things are true, Cutler may be one of those guys that doesnt learn this NFL thing before its too late

theAPAOps5
04-04-2009, 06:51 AM
wow....talk about gettin it all out there

if these kinds of things are true, Cutler may be one of those guys that doesnt learn this NFL thing before its too late

Fatsis was destroyed here for even speaking badly about the Douche. I feel bad for him as he saw this tool for what he was and wasn't afraid to say it.

vancejohnson82
04-04-2009, 06:59 AM
Fatsis was destroyed here for even speaking badly about the Douche. I feel bad for him as he saw this tool for what he was and wasn't afraid to say it.

I'm upset that I ignored the advice of the Mane and didnt read the book now....might have to order it on Amazon

But for a journalist (and I'm not going to call him a player) to come out and be that forthright negatively about a guy on a personal level, it really means that Cutler must have rubbed some people the wrong way.

I'm not going to go as far as to say that I'm ectsatic that Cutler isnt our QB anymore but maybe this is something that was known around league circles and McDaniels came in with his guard up about Cutler, and rightfully so. As soon as the pouting about the trade came up it was time to cut the cord.

What is so interesting is that QBs normally end up befriending these type of guys (the special teams guru, the hustle guy, etc..) Jay seemed to do the opposite. But this could also be a result of Jake having a grip on the team when Jay took over....who knows.

But by now, there should have been SOME good reports about Jay and peopel that were really sad to see him leave the locker room....doesnt seem like it.

theAPAOps5
04-04-2009, 07:01 AM
He doesn't have much on Cutler in his book. Cutler ignored him in the locker room. Apparently he ignored a lot of people in the locker room. I honestly thing the guy has social anxiety disorder and self medicates with alcohol.

Rohirrim
04-04-2009, 07:09 AM
Who are we talking about? Oh, the Bears' QB? meh

thumpc
04-04-2009, 07:45 AM
People ripped on Fatsis fon his bias for players that spoke to him. The point of his book was not to be objective, but to tell the experience of a player in an nfl training camp. The idea is that any scrub camp fodder kicker would be treated well by some, ignored by others, and get to observe them amongst each other at the same time.

thumpc
04-04-2009, 07:49 AM
Who are we talking about? Oh, the Bears' QB? meh

We're talking about "the player".

lostknight
04-04-2009, 08:03 AM
Typical Fatsis. He says nice things about people who were nice to him, and bad things about people who were not.

Typical Popps. He bolded only what he wanted to hear, and ignored everything else.

lostknight
04-04-2009, 08:08 AM
I'm upset that I ignored the advice of the Mane and didnt read the book now....might have to order it on Amazon

But for a journalist (and I'm not going to call him a player) to come out and be that forthright negatively about a guy on a personal level, it really means that Cutler must have rubbed some people the wrong way.



Not really. Fatsis was nice about anyone who pretended that he really was a NFL player. He dissed anyone who thought he wasn't. It was a pretty horrifically self-serving book, because it existed to play him up as the central character.

Cutler refused to get involved in the story, because it was his first season and he had just finished some very very bad experiences with the media which at the time (and still from some quarters) was comparing him poorly to Vince Young and Matt Leinart. As I understand it, the marching orders from Dove Valley were to avoid the media at any cost.

Jake Plummer on the other hand was a "Kindred Spirit" The amount of vocal hand jobs that Fatsis does for him in the book is amazing. Also Fatsis praises the athletic prowess of such greats as Chad Mustard, etc.

Still at the end of the day, Plummer took his ball and went home. Jay took his ball at went to Chicago. Both had the same trigger - deliberatly missing off-season work-outs.

of course, The Jay bashers will never admit that. But Jay at least as one luxury that Jake will never have. He can prove them wrong on the field.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
04-04-2009, 08:47 AM
Typical Fatsis. He says nice things about people who were nice to him, and bad things about people who were not.

Typical Popps. He bolded only what he wanted to hear, and ignored everything else.

Did you read the book? Can you actually read?

I'm guessing the answer to both is "no."

If you read the book, you'd know that it had nothing to do with people being "nice" to him. It had to do with embedding himself in camp and getting to know the life of an NFL player to put in the book. The word around the locker room is that Cutler treated others exactly how he treated Fatsis: with a lot of disdain, carrying himself like he was better than everyone else.

he wasn't. But obviously, since his name came up in trade talks and he stomped his feet about it, he still thinks he's the most important person in any locker room, anywhere.

You're welcome to suck his dick some more though, if the protein shake payoff is worth it to you.

Me? I'd rather root for my team, and realize that Cutler ain't coming back, and that we've got an opportunity to be a better TEAM -- not a better CUTLER -- going forward. But please, continue to cry in your spilled milk.

Popps
04-04-2009, 09:59 AM
Did you read the book? Can you actually read?

I'm guessing the answer to both is "no."

If you read the book, you'd know that it had nothing to do with people being "nice" to him. It had to do with embedding himself in camp and getting to know the life of an NFL player to put in the book. The word around the locker room is that Cutler treated others exactly how he treated Fatsis: with a lot of disdain, carrying himself like he was better than everyone else.

he wasn't. But obviously, since his name came up in trade talks and he stomped his feet about it, he still thinks he's the most important person in any locker room, anywhere.

You're welcome to suck his dick some more though, if the protein shake payoff is worth it to you.

Me? I'd rather root for my team, and realize that Cutler ain't coming back, and that we've got an opportunity to be a better TEAM -- not a better CUTLER -- going forward. But please, continue to cry in your spilled milk.

His demeanor often was that of a bored, eye-rolling teenage girl, with a dash of smugness for good measure.

Yea, to me... that's not just an impression you get when someone wasn't extra-nice to you. That's a strong viewpoint to have. Those kinds of opinions on someone generally don't come without fairly extreme behavior being exhibited towards that person.

I mean, it's always been pretty easy to speculate this was the case... it's just interesting to hear an unbiased source confirm it, and to such an extent.

lostknight
04-04-2009, 11:00 AM
Did you read the book? Can you actually read?


Yes Sir.I have a masters degree in History, and a bachelors in Computer Science. Both took vast amounts of reading and logical thinking. I highly recommend it to you.


I'm guessing the answer to both is "no."


And that guess is just as wrong as the rest of your pointless driveling post


If you read the book, you'd know that it had nothing to do with people being "nice" to him. It had to do with embedding himself in camp and getting to know the life of an NFL player to put in the book. The word around the locker room is that Cutler treated others exactly how he treated Fatsis: with a lot of disdain, carrying himself like he was better than everyone else.


Unfortunately, Stephen himself has said that he tended to write about people who "interested him" He explicitly said that Cutler didn't interest him, because Cutler would not talk to him. In addition, he took a variety of cheap shots at Cutler's dad just because.

Authors are biased. Stephan Fatsis wrote a book with himself as a hero. That made anyone who did not grovel at his athletic ability and mental prowess a villian.


he wasn't. But obviously, since his name came up in trade talks and he stomped his feet about it, he still thinks he's the most important person in any locker room, anywhere.


And again, that's just plain bull****. The FO tried to trade Cutler in the dark. It failed. Cutler asked to be traded. The franchise responded. Amazingly enough this is remarkably similar to what Jake did, which Fatsis spent all his time praising. Only Jake was even more one sided taking his ball and going home rather then not be the starting quarterback of the Denver Broncos.

Bronx33
04-04-2009, 11:01 AM
Nice article...thanks for posting.

I live in Chicago now, moved here last summer, so I was able to catch Jay's radio interview. He made a point of thanking "Mr. Bowlen" the city of Denver and the fans of the Broncos. He took the high road and said the right things.

I'm hoping for everyone's sake that Cutler learns a few things from going through this. He's a smart kid, but a kid none the less. Cutler said that if they could have a do-over both sides would probably make different decisions.

I wish him the best, I hope he matures (I expect he will) and that he has a great career. I hope that the Broncos draft really well and come out of this stronger. What can I say...I'm an optimist...the glass is more than half full.


Poor timing....LOL

Anaximines
04-04-2009, 11:07 AM
thanks Popps, I always enjoy SF's takes.

Popps
04-04-2009, 11:16 AM
Unfortunately, Stephen himself has said that he tended to write about people who "interested him" He explicitly said that Cutler didn't interest him, because Cutler would not talk to him. In addition, he took a variety of cheap shots at Cutler's dad just because. .

Yea, actually... he said he found Cutler "uncompelling journalistically and off-putting personally."

In other words, while most QBs tend to be team leaders/ambassadors for their teams, he found Jay to be the opposite. He then went on to say that it wasn't just that he wasn't approachable, but that he was smug and that multiple sources have reported to him as to having issues with his personality.

Again, you're looking for a conspiracy theory here, but again.. this guy has no real reason to go after anyone. Champ Bailey isn't the most talkative guy in the world, judging by what I read. Yet, SF had no need to point out him having character flaws.

This guy has been a straight shooter up until now, taking positions as he sees them, whether or not it makes him popular. So, your efforts to shoot the messenger (common with regards to this scenario) fall a little flat.

This isn't a guy in his room writing a blog. It's someone who spent (and spends) a lot of time around these people, and even shares mutual friends.

Tombstone RJ
04-04-2009, 11:24 AM
Fatsis never did like Cutler, he wrote his book with the cooperation of Sundquist and the Plummer teams. I think he's got an ax to grind. Regardless, Fatsis' analysis of the team has soured since he left the team. Pretty crappy of him IMHO. At least he doesn't throw Bowlen under the bus...

TheElusiveKyleOrton
04-04-2009, 11:30 AM
Yes Sir.I have a masters degree in History, and a bachelors in Computer Science. Both took vast amounts of reading and logical thinking. I highly recommend it to you.

Gahahahahahahaahahaha! Whatever you say, brainiac! I have a car that I drove to the moon, and that's true because I said it on the internet!



Unfortunately, Stephen himself has said that he tended to write about people who "interested him" He explicitly said that Cutler didn't interest him, because Cutler would not talk to him. In addition, he took a variety of cheap shots at Cutler's dad just because.

He didn't say Cutler wouldn't talk to him. He said he found him off-putting personally, and journalistically a non-story. Kind of a big difference there.

Say, take Cutler's cock out of your mouth. Pay attention.


Authors are biased. Stephan Fatsis wrote a book with himself as a hero. That made anyone who did not grovel at his athletic ability and mental prowess a villian.



Well, someone has some deep-seeded biases. Good grief Lostboy, I'm wondering what kind of university would give you any degree, let alone a masters in history. You clearly have no retention of what you read, or you just scribbled over every page with your crayons, then made up your own story. MIght want to read it again

I've read it three times. Not once did I think, "Fatsis is really trying to be a hero here." In fact, I found him too self-deprecating most of the time.

And again, that's just plain bull****. The FO tried to trade Cutler in the dark. It failed. Cutler asked to be traded. The franchise responded. Amazingly enough this is remarkably similar to what Jake did, which Fatsis spent all his time praising. Only Jake was even more one sided taking his ball and going home rather then not be the starting quarterback of the Denver Broncos.

You're right, it's bull**** alright. It's bull**** that you're still buying Jay's story. Requests, formally, that he be traded. Granted his wish, he says "I never wanted it to come to this." The kid doesn't know his ass from a banjo, and you don't know **** from shine-ola.

Popps
04-04-2009, 11:41 AM
Fatsis never did like Cutler, he wrote his book with the cooperation of Sundquist and the Plummer teams. I think he's got an ax to grind. Regardless, Fatsis' analysis of the team has soured since he left the team. Pretty crappy of him IMHO. At least he doesn't throw Bowlen under the bus...

Again, though... "axes to grind" have to begin somewhere. Is it possible that this is Fatsis' own person problem? Sure, I suppose. But, how come he didn't have said axe to grind with DJ Williams? How about Tom Nalen?

Why, like so many other people... did he question Cutler's personality and leadership?

It's one thing to ignore a puff of smoke once in a while. It's another thing when smoke is billowing out of the same area. At some point, the fire assumption has to be considered a real possibility.

lostknight
04-04-2009, 11:48 AM
Yea, actually... he said he found Cutler "uncompelling journalistically and off-putting personally."

In other words, while most QBs tend to be team leaders/ambassadors for their teams, he found Jay to be the opposite. He then went on to say that it wasn't just that he wasn't approachable, but that he was smug and that multiple sources have reported to him as to having issues with his personality.

He also trashed Tony up one side and another. And Brandon. And just about all of the rookies. None of whom would talk to him.

vancejohnson82
04-04-2009, 12:18 PM
He also trashed Tony up one side and another. And Brandon. And just about all of the rookies. None of whom would talk to him.

You say repeatedly that the team tried to keep Cutler in the dark while they tried to trade him....how are players normally traded?? Do organizations have to call up these players and say, "hey, we are recieving some offers do u mind if we answer the phone?"

Jay getting his panties all in a bunch about this was his perogative just like it was the teams perogative to listen to offers...and now the situation has resolved itself

so what is your problem now?? its over, deal with it

DenverBrit
04-04-2009, 12:19 PM
His demeanor often was that of a bored, eye-rolling teenage girl, with a dash of smugness for good measure.

Yea, to me... that's not just an impression you get when someone wasn't extra-nice to you. That's a strong viewpoint to have. Those kinds of opinions on someone generally don't come without fairly extreme behavior being exhibited towards that person.

I mean, it's always been pretty easy to speculate this was the case... it's just interesting to hear an unbiased source confirm it, and to such an extent.

He nailed Cutler with that description.

People would have to be blind not to have noticed the immaturity and pouty attitude.
Nevertheless, I wish him well and thank him for providing so many new draft choices.
McD, you're on the clock.

Paladin
04-04-2009, 12:43 PM
I wish the Draft were tomorrow. This s*** is getting old......

bandwagonjumper
04-04-2009, 01:26 PM
Hi I hope there is some space on the Denver Bronco bandwagon because I'm ready to jump on it. Anyway the next few years promise to be a bumpy ride. I want to congratulate Pat Bowlen on a gutsy decision. He could have stayed with Mike Shannahan and his 'franchise' qb Jay Cutler or take a radical new approach. I think he did the right decision. The old regime got stale since John Elway retired. The new regime may or may not work out but it sure will be exciting.

Bronx33
04-04-2009, 01:38 PM
Hi I hope there is some space on the Denver Bronco bandwagon because I'm ready to jump on it. Anyway the next few years promise to be a bumpy ride. I want to congratulate Pat Bowlen on a gutsy decision. He could have stayed with Mike Shannahan and his 'franchise' qb Jay Cutler or take a radical new approach. I think he did the right decision. The old regime got stale since John Elway retired. The new regime may or may not work out but it sure will be exciting.

bandwagon jumper? what team did you follow last year? and just so ya know we frown upon bandwagonjumpers you're either a fan through thick and thin ( or your not a fan)

TonyR
04-04-2009, 02:02 PM
Typical Fatsis. He says nice things about people who were nice to him, and bad things about people who were not.

Typical Popps. He bolded only what he wanted to hear, and ignored everything else.

On your first point, you act like Fatsis is the first person to make such observations about Cutler. Go listen to John Lynch's recent interview.

As for what was bolded, why don't you tell us what we should be focused on. I read the whole article and wasn't influenced by the highlighted parts myself.

fontaine
04-04-2009, 02:35 PM
I don't really put much stock into any opinion of a person, regardless of whether it's Jay or anyone else who was suffering from undiagnosed diabetes, about how they were moody or emotionally distant etc.

It's kinda like complaining about the somber mood at a funeral by asking "Why is everyone so upset?"

barryr
04-04-2009, 02:57 PM
The Cutler fans will not believe anything negative about Cutler. He was wronged and he and his agent acted professionally and honestly throughout the process. Yes, they really believe this ****.

Natedogg
04-05-2009, 01:45 PM
Best article of McJayGate

Hamrob
04-05-2009, 01:58 PM
What really burns Fatsis is that Cutler caught him masterbating to a glossy 8x10 of Jake Plummer. When Fatsis tried to explain...Jay rolled his eyes. Two-weeks later when Fatis approached Jay about his book...Jay told him to get lost.

It's funny how that incident has stuck with Fatsis and he just can't seem to get over it...or his infatuation for Jake for that matter!

Tombstone RJ
04-05-2009, 02:12 PM
What really burns Fatsis is that Cutler caught him masterbating to a glossy 8x10 of Jake Plummer. When Fatsis tried to explain...Jay rolled his eyes. Two-weeks later when Fatis approached Jay about his book...Jay told him to get lost.

It's funny how that incident has stuck with Fatsis and he just can't seem to get over it...or his infatuation for Jake for that matter!

ROFL!

broncogary
04-05-2009, 05:37 PM
Typical Fatsis. He says nice things about people who were nice to him, and bad things about people who were not.

Typical Popps. He bolded only what he wanted to hear, and ignored everything else.

I think this pretty well sums it up. And Fatsis' does have an agenda. It's called selling books.

lostknight
04-05-2009, 06:42 PM
I think this pretty well sums it up. And Fatsis' does have an agenda. It's called selling books.

Yes. And More power too him. But let's remember what it is. A book a author wrote with himself in a starring role.

Archer81
04-05-2009, 07:19 PM
What really burns Fatsis is that Cutler caught him masterbating to a glossy 8x10 of Jake Plummer. When Fatsis tried to explain...Jay rolled his eyes. Two-weeks later when Fatis approached Jay about his book...Jay told him to get lost.

It's funny how that incident has stuck with Fatsis and he just can't seem to get over it...or his infatuation for Jake for that matter!



Actually, the truth of it is Fastis caught Cutler whacking it to a picture of Shanahan. So, Jay, being an uberstraight super jock, went overboard to castigate the kicker/reporter.

:Broncos:

Popps
04-05-2009, 07:21 PM
I think this pretty well sums it up. And Fatsis' does have an agenda. It's called selling books.

Again, you're not following the conversation properly.

This man can sell books either way. He could say the club really screwed up, and he'd sell books. In fact, it would probably be a bit more cutting-edge for him to take up a position against the team and get the fans riled up.

But, he didn't.

So, again... he's got no reason to take either side in particular. Both could sell him books. Yet, he... like so many others, criticized Cutler for his people-skills, demeanor, etc.

Nothing surprising and pretty much anyone looking at the situation rationally at this stage can see Cutler for what he is... a spoiled baby with a real ego problem.

broncogary
04-05-2009, 07:56 PM
Again, you're not following the conversation properly.

This man can sell books either way. He could say the club really screwed up, and he'd sell books. In fact, it would probably be a bit more cutting-edge for him to take up a position against the team and get the fans riled up.

But, he didn't.

So, again... he's got no reason to take either side in particular. Both could sell him books. Yet, he... like so many others, criticized Cutler for his people-skills, demeanor, etc.

Nothing surprising and pretty much anyone looking at the situation rationally at this stage can see Cutler for what he is... a spoiled baby with a real ego problem.

You forgot to follow properly. He originally took the position against Cutler and now he's trying to drum up a few additional book sales with an "I told you so."

_Oro_
04-05-2009, 11:17 PM
He doesn't have much on Cutler in his book. Cutler ignored him in the locker room. Apparently he ignored a lot of people in the locker room. I honestly thing the guy has social anxiety disorder and self medicates with alcohol.

lol

Popps
04-05-2009, 11:24 PM
You forgot to follow properly. He originally took the position against Cutler and now he's trying to drum up a few additional book sales with an "I told you so."

Again, you make zero sense.

Why would it "sell more books" to take up a position one way or another?

You're not using logic. You're restating yourself, as if saying it for a second time makes you correct.

"... oh, ****... he said it twice, it MUST be true!"

There was NO MORE "book selling" value in saying Cutler had a good or bad attitude. Again, it's just as easy to speculate that taking a position against the team would have been controversial and potentially sparked more outrage about the situation.

So, I'm guessing you're going to repeat the same thing for a third time, now. It'll be incorrect when you do.

There was ZERO reason for him to choose to take a position one way or another. Either could have been used to sell books, and he could have easily CHANGED positions, and potentially even sold MORE books.

It's flawed, silly reasoning.

BroncoBuff
04-06-2009, 02:19 AM
You forgot to follow properly. He originally took the position against Cutler and now he's trying to drum up a few additional book sales with an "I told you so."

That's correct.

If you read the book, Fatsis was very anti-Cutler from the start. It's understandable if you know that Jake Plummer was the the best friend Fatsis made while writing the book. Jake and Paul Ernster and Preston Parsons.

And it's important to know Fatsis was not around for any of this, which makes him piping up now pretty strange ... you're right gary, he's prolly trying to sell more books. Nothin wrong with that I guess.

sfatsis
04-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Hello Mane. Good to be back. Continued thanks to those of you who have offered kind words about my work, in the past and again now. I do appreciate it. I just wanted to clear up a few things in the aftermath of my New York Times post about Cutler saga:

--I think it was all Jayís fault. I donít, and my post probably should have been more critical of the new front office (which I was when I talked about it on NPR last week and will be when Iím on the Paul Finebaum radio show today). Based on my conversations, thereís plenty of blame to go around. McDaniels wasnít enamored of Jay from the beginning. Jay was pissed about Bates leaving. McDaniels and Xanders were outmaneuvered in the trade talks and botched the spin, both privately and publicly. McDaniels didnít take the reasonable and necessary step of reassuring Jay. Jay didnít take the reasonable and necessary step of communicating better with the team, and leaving his agent out of it. Bowlen may have overreacted with the weíre-trading-Jay announcement.

In a way this reinforces one of the themes of A Few Seconds of Panic: that the NFL is a dysfunctional work place. But I stand by my opinion of Jayís ability (great) and personality (challenged), and think the Broncos did consider both. Ultimately, though, it all spiraled out of control. I think both sides look bad, I think McDaniels and Xanders have a lot to learn (and prove), and I think Jay has some growing up to do in Chicago.

--Iím still writing about the Broncos to drum up book sales. Guilty as charged! I do want people to read my work, and Iím proud of the book. More important, though, I have a different perspective on the NFL. I was the only second person in the history of the league allowed to suit up with a team for training camp. I know many of the principals involved with the Broncos better and from a more personal perspective than other writers. Anyway, the paperback will be out in August! With a new afterword!

--Cutler blew me off. Shortly after arriving in Denver, and before I knew him well, I did say to Jay one day that maybe we could sit down and talk some time. (As I mention in the book, I spent the hours between practices in empty meeting rooms talking to players with the tape recorder rolling.) It quickly became clear to me that he wasnít interested in doing that and, first-round draft pick or not, wasnít terribly interesting and wouldnít be much help to in writing about life in the NFL. I never asked again. Jay was occasionally snarky or rude to me, but there were times when I went out with him and some of our mutual friends on the team.

--Other rookies blew me off, too. Someone wrote that Tony Scheffler didnít talk to me and isnít in the book. Actually, Tony was one of my closest friends on the team. And I do write about him a fair amount. He had a pretty rough rookie year, youíll recall.

--I only wrote about people who were nice to me. Actually, I chose to write about people who were smart, thoughtful and had something interesting to say about their jobs. I donít actually trash anyone, including Jay (unless you consider my describing and profiling Todd Sauerbrun trashing him). I write about a range of players, some of whom became good friends, some of whom didnít Ė from main ďcharactersĒ like Plummer, Parsons and Elam, to regulars like Foxworth and Warren, to marginal players like P.J. Alexander. I did a long interview with John Lynch, whom I admire and was great to me, but it didnít add much so I didnít use it. Champ Bailey and Rod Smith were completely fine with having me around and perfectly friendly, but they werenít interested in sitting down for a talk. Tom Nalen also didnít want to be in the book, and he gave me grief all summer, but it was good-natured (I think) and I really like him.

I had no agenda, favored no one and wrote about what I experienced. I had no axes to grind then and don't have any now. Really.

Thanks,
Stefan Fatsis

SouthStndJunkie
04-08-2009, 01:04 PM
Hello Mane. Good to be back. Continued thanks to those of you who have offered kind words about my work, in the past and again now. I do appreciate it. I just wanted to clear up a few things in the aftermath of my New York Times post about Cutler saga:

--I think it was all Jayís fault. I donít, and my post probably should have been more critical of the new front office (which I was when I talked about it on NPR last week and will be when Iím on the Paul Finebaum radio show today). Based on my conversations, thereís plenty of blame to go around. McDaniels wasnít enamored of Jay from the beginning. Jay was pissed about Bates leaving. McDaniels and Xanders were outmaneuvered in the trade talks and botched the spin, both privately and publicly. McDaniels didnít take the reasonable and necessary step of reassuring Jay. Jay didnít take the reasonable and necessary step of communicating better with the team, and leaving his agent out of it. Bowlen may have overreacted with the weíre-trading-Jay announcement.

In a way this reinforces one of the themes of A Few Seconds of Panic: that the NFL is a dysfunctional work place. But I stand by my opinion of Jayís ability (great) and personality (challenged), and think the Broncos did consider both. Ultimately, though, it all spiraled out of control. I think both sides look bad, I think McDaniels and Xanders have a lot to learn (and prove), and I think Jay has some growing up to do in Chicago.

--Iím still writing about the Broncos to drum up book sales. Guilty as charged! I do want people to read my work, and Iím proud of the book. More important, though, I have a different perspective on the NFL. I was the only second person in the history of the league allowed to suit up with a team for training camp. I know many of the principals involved with the Broncos better and from a more personal perspective than other writers. Anyway, the paperback will be out in August! With a new afterword!

--Cutler blew me off. Shortly after arriving in Denver, and before I knew him well, I did say to Jay one day that maybe we could sit down and talk some time. (As I mention in the book, I spent the hours between practices in empty meeting rooms talking to players with the tape recorder rolling.) It quickly became clear to me that he wasnít interested in doing that and, first-round draft pick or not, wasnít terribly interesting and wouldnít be much help to in writing about life in the NFL. I never asked again. Jay was occasionally snarky or rude to me, but there were times when I went out with him and some of our mutual friends on the team.

--Other rookies blew me off, too. Someone wrote that Tony Scheffler didnít talk to me and isnít in the book. Actually, Tony was one of my closest friends on the team. And I do write about him a fair amount. He had a pretty rough rookie year, youíll recall.

--I only wrote about people who were nice to me. Actually, I chose to write about people who were smart, thoughtful and had something interesting to say about their jobs. I donít actually trash anyone, including Jay (unless you consider my describing and profiling Todd Sauerbrun trashing him). I write about a range of players, some of whom became good friends, some of whom didnít Ė from main ďcharactersĒ like Plummer, Parsons and Elam, to regulars like Foxworth and Warren, to marginal players like P.J. Alexander. I did a long interview with John Lynch, whom I admire and was great to me, but it didnít add much so I didnít use it. Champ Bailey and Rod Smith were completely fine with having me around and perfectly friendly, but they werenít interested in sitting down for a talk. Tom Nalen also didnít want to be in the book, and he gave me grief all summer, but it was good-natured (I think) and I really like him.

I had no agenda, favored no one and wrote about what I experienced. I had no axes to grind then and don't have any now. Really.

Thanks,
Stefan Fatsis

I enjoyed reading your book.

Quick question....

Have you read Jason Elam's book 'Monday Night Jihad'?

Did you enjoy it/think it was well written?

I actually thought it was a decent effort and enjoyed the story, even though it was a little predictable.

I heard that he and Yohn have a second book, 'Blown Coverage', but I have not read it yet.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 01:08 PM
What really burns Fatsis is that Cutler caught him masterbating to a glossy 8x10 of Jake Plummer. When Fatsis tried to explain...Jay rolled his eyes. Two-weeks later when Fatis approached Jay about his book...Jay told him to get lost.

It's funny how that incident has stuck with Fatsis and he just can't seem to get over it...or his infatuation for Jake for that matter!
Funny ...

In case you haven't read the book, the closest friend Fatsis made on the team was Jake Plummer. And the guy he DISLIKED the most was Jay Cutler. (Or maybe Todd Sauerbrun, it was a tie actually).

SonOfLe-loLang
04-08-2009, 01:10 PM
Funny ...

In case you haven't read the book, the closest friend Fatsis made on the team was Jake Plummer. And the guy he DISLIKED the most was Jay Cutler. (Or maybe Todd Sauerbrun, it was a tie actually).

I didnt get that impression.

I got the impression his closest friend was his scrabble buddy (buddies?) I didnt get the impression he hated Todd, he was just baffled by him.

Mountain Bronco
04-08-2009, 01:39 PM
Agree to a point. Talked to some Chicago guys the past couple of days, and they are indeed stoked... to say the least.

But, the flipside of that is if Jay doesn't live up to this messiah status he's coming to town carrying. I do think there is going to be an enormous amount of pressure on him. We'll see how he handles it.

I spoke with some diehard Bears fans and their initial reaction was "Cutler is like Grossman on steroids". Bad decisions with a cannon does not equal success.

Too funny.

crawdad
04-08-2009, 02:03 PM
You forgot to follow properly. He originally took the position against Cutler and now he's trying to drum up a few additional book sales with an "I told you so."

I began to take a position against Cutler every time he moped on the sidelines and appeared to have an "I don't care" attitude. Did you miss that part of the season?

USMCBladerunner
04-08-2009, 02:11 PM
Stefan,

I applaud this and all past posts where you take the time to clarify your positions and contribute to the discourse (if it can be coined as such).

telluride
04-08-2009, 02:22 PM
Stefan,

I

...am speechless?
...can't run the internets?
...love you?

lostknight
04-08-2009, 03:02 PM
I had no agenda, favored no one and wrote about what I experienced. I had no axes to grind then and don't have any now. Really.

Thanks,
Stefan Fatsis

Again, props to coming on here, but I disagree with your contention that you can be detached from the events and people around you, and not let that affect your characterization. I hate the myth of the all-seeing, all-caring and all-knowing media. I say this as someone who has been mentioned on the cover of the New York Times - that experience has really opened my eyes as to the effect that authors can have with a careless, or even a directed comment.

Your book remains on my bookshelf, as well as Adam Schefter's (err. Mike Shanahan's) book, and I make it a point to hit your NPR apperences on the web, That is as much a endorsement as any, but to say that you are not affected by how people treated you I think is a mistake.

crowebomber
04-08-2009, 03:12 PM
--Other rookies blew me off, too. Someone wrote that Tony Scheffler didnít talk to me and isnít in the book. Actually, Tony was one of my closest friends on the team. And I do write about him a fair amount. He had a pretty rough rookie year, youíll recall.



Do you still speak to Tony, specifically have you spoken to him since this all went down?

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 06:29 PM
I enjoyed reading your book.

Quick question....

Have you read Jason Elam's book 'Monday Night Jihad'?

Did you enjoy it/think it was well written?

I read Stephan's book, too ... Loved it, Stephan.

Junkie, I can tell you he really, REALLY admires Jason - almost reveres him - every aspect of his life. I got the impression from reading Stephan's book that Jason is a kind of Renaissance man. I was very impressed with all the new stuff I learned about Jason ... and then we promptly let him go! :( I wish "A Few Seconds" had come out ten years earlier ... I might've bought an Elam jersey like stg.

More mixed was his description/interactions with Todd Sauerbrun. He described him as a jerkish guy through most of the book ... but toward the end, curiously semi-rehabilitated him in a beautifully written, complex analysis of how much of Todd's "bad" behavior might be understandable.


Stephan, I'll never forget the Preston Parsons stuff ... a cautionary tale for any young NFL player. The thought of his wife living with his parents in Oregon - basically flat broke - and how he squandered $600k + from his years with the Cards ... man, that was sad. A real eye-opener. I was watching when the Titans waived him off their practice suqad last year .... is this the end of the line for him?

SportinOne
04-08-2009, 06:31 PM
People have generally liked his coverage. He's been pretty forthcoming, perhaps even too much for his own good. But, if nothing else, he's been on the inside and approached things from a pretty neutral perspective.

Here's his take...

Stefan Fatsis on the Broncos and Jay Cutler
By STEFAN FATSIS

The saga of the Denver Broncos and Jay Cutler is like the childrenís song about the old lady who swallowed a fly. You can find a reason for every decision, but you still might not ever know why.

In this case, the first swallow was Broncos owner Pat Bowlen firing Coach Mike Shanahan. The decision to break up after 14 seasons wasnít driven by a perception of a diminution in the coachís football skills. Bowlen told me he still respected those. But it wasnít a spontaneous act based on the teamís late-season collapse in 2008, either. Instead, the owner and others in the organization began to feel that Shanahanís my-way operating style had lost some of its effectiveness, in the front office and with the players.

Bowlen over the years had gradually ceded to Shanahan virtually all operating control of the team. After three mediocre seasons in a row ó a 24-24 record; no playoff appearances ó he decided this was as good a time as any to rebrand and possibly revive his business.

One other overlooked factor: Bowlen is 65. Heíd like the franchise to be in a stable place for an ownership transition in the next few years to one of his seven children. I got to know Bowlen well during the summer I spent as a kicker with the Broncos to write a book about the NFL. He doesnít want to be like Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson, presiding over his team, even as a figurehead, at age 90. I also know Bowlen to be thoughtful, reasonable and sensible ó and tough when he needs to be. He trusts the people he has hired ó leaving the football decisions to the football people and business decisions to the business people ó and weighs in when necessary. That was less and less under Shanahan. He wanted a more active role in his final years as owner.

In Josh McDaniels, Bowlen chose to succeed Shanahan a coach schooled in New Englandís disciplined methodology. McDaniels analyzed every player on the Broncos, examining footage and reading reports prepared by his staff. He made some small, head-scratching decisions, like dumping reliable and hard-working (not to mention mature and intelligent) Shanahan holdovers like Mike Leach, the long snapper, and Nate Jackson, a tight end and special teamer. (Disclosure: Both are friends of mine.) He dumped assistant coaches. He rearranged the furniture, literally, at the Broncosí suburban headquarters. As I type this, just eight players, three assistant coaches and three football executives remain from the time I spent with the team in 2006.

Jay Cutler wasnít spared scrutiny, nor should he have been. Which leads to a question that few people seem to be asking: Why would McDaniels have considered trading Cutler in the first place? I donít know the coach, but I know how NFL front offices operate. Itís incumbent on team executives to pick up the phone when other teams call. Itís incumbent on them to listen. Itís not incumbent on them to do more than say, thanks, but no thanks. In this instance, McDaniels was contacted about acquiring his former quarterback in New England, Matt Cassel. Proposals were made. How far they got, and how aggressive the Broncos were about encouraging them, only the participants know for sure.

Should Jay Cutler and his agent, Bus Cook, have been insulted that these conversations took place? Of course not. Coaches and general managers have a responsibility, akin to a CEOís fiduciary responsibility, to consider anything that might improve their team. What I know based on talking to some of my former Broncos colleagues is that, well before this drama erupted, Cook and Cutler wanted to renegotiate the quarterbackís six-year contract, which has three years left. The current deal included $15 million in guaranteed payments. Cutler was paid a $1.275 million roster bonus in 2006 and a $7.9 million option bonus in 2007. But his base salaries are, by Pro Bowl-quarterback standards, meager, and a $12 million performance bonus isnít due until 2011.

Ted Sundquist, the Broncosí general manager when I was with the team, told me at the time that, because of the large lump-sum, back-end payout, the contract would probably be restructured before it expires. He said Bus Cook also expected that to happen. Did Cutler and Cook manufacture their hurt feelings over McDanielsís trade talks and the coachís subsequent ineffectual spin in an effort to get a new contract now, or get to another city that would give them one? I donít know. But they certainly saw an opening.

Still, issues over money and bruised egos are addressed and massaged every day in pro sports. The Broncos didnít have to publicly announce that they wanted to trade Cutler. He was an employee under contract. He would have found a way to sublimate his wounded feelings and show up for mandatory training or risk watching Chris Simms take snaps in September. But at some point, possibly just this week, possibly as long ago as January, the Broncos concluded that they would be better off in the long run ó on the field and as a business ó with a quarterback other than Cutler.

So why did they swallow that fly? I met Cutler when he was the first-round draft choice in 2006 who was expected to ride the bench for a couple of years behind Jake Plummer and then lead Denver for a decade or more. The new Elway! Finally! But Cutler is virtually absent from my book. Thatís because he was uncompelling journalistically and off-putting personally. I sought out players who thought deeply and were interested in explaining the physical and emotional realities of playing in the NFL. That wasnít Cutler. His demeanor often was that of a bored, eye-rolling teenage girl, with a dash of smugness for good measure. Since then, Iíve received unflattering reports about his behavior and indifferent-to-negative ones about his relationship with his teammates.

Should those sorts of perceptions outweigh a laser arm on a 25-year-old body and 4,500 passing yards and 13-1 record in games in which his team gave up no more than 21 points and any of the other stats rolled out by his supporters? Certainly not. But football teams, like other businesses, consist of human beings whose ability to interact is integral to their success. And no human being is more important to the success of a football team than the quarterback. Josh McDaniels may be young and inexperienced, but heís not dumb. He didnít want to sabotage his new team, or his own future. So something else must have been going on.

Hereís a radical thought: Maybe McJayGate, as the Denver press dubbed it, wasnít about who dissed whom or who ignored whose text messages or whether a new coach has to earn the respect of his players. Maybe it was about something more prosaic but also more substantial: the future of the team. Maybe Pat Bowlen, Josh McDaniels and other team officials examined Cutlerís statistics, his physical traits, his emotional temperament, his suitability to the coachís offensive system, his leadership ability, his off-field behavior and his overall attitude ó including the evolution of his relationship with his new boss. And then they decided that the Denver Broncos had a greater chance of winning with someone else in the huddle. Even someone named Kyle Orton.

Much like yourself, Popps, your takes are getting old. Old in that, it's the same damn take every time:

"That young pup shouldn't be disrespecting a good old fashioned businessman like Bowlen!"

Yeah good job, Bowlen. You got mad and pushed the button. Smart people always make decisions based on their emotions.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 06:32 PM
Fatsis' does have an agenda. It's called selling books.Again, you make zero sense. Why would it "sell more books" to take up a position one way or another?

I wonder which of these two guys is right?

Hmmmmmm...... let's go to the source:

--Iím still writing about the Broncos to drum up book sales. Guilty as charged!


Popps, don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

Natedogg
04-08-2009, 06:32 PM
Thanks for posting Fatsis! Keep coming back. Really liked the book!

24champ
04-08-2009, 06:46 PM
This thread pretty much backfired on Popps.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 06:49 PM
This thread pretty much backfired on Popps.

ROFL!

I don't get why Popps isn't just sitting back ang gloating .... he got his wish, Jay is gone.

Instead, he's arguing even MORE. And he seems more angry than ever.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 06:59 PM
I'm tired of waiting to make this my avatar ... so here goes:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7188/20090324mcdanielsp1x.jpg

Natedogg
04-08-2009, 07:02 PM
I'm tired of waiting to make this my avatar ... so here goes:

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7188/20090324mcdanielsp1x.jpg

ROFL!

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 07:07 PM
:thanku:

Broncomutt
04-08-2009, 07:42 PM
Mr. Fatsis,

Please know 1 thing, not everyone on the Mane is a child. Not everyone sir.

I'm sure you already know that, but I have never been as ashamed of the Mane as I have been the past few months, and for some reason, especially now.

My original post stands, what a great and indepth read!

Hope to hear more from you soon and often, often and often.

Thanks.

Broncomutt

Popps
04-08-2009, 08:33 PM
This thread pretty much backfired on Popps.

"Backfired?"

Posting the writers own words "backfired" on me?


Doofus, did you read the guy's response?

The writer of the article came in and confirmed my position, verbatim...

His words....


But I stand by my opinion of Jayís ability (great) and personality (challenged), and think the Broncos did consider both. Ultimately, though, it all spiraled out of control. I think both sides look bad, I think McDaniels and Xanders have a lot to learn (and prove), and I think Jay has some growing up to do in Chicago.


My words...

He's talking about our most recent starting QB, yes. He's had extensive contact with Cutler and shares close ties with the team, including mutual friends with Cutler.

But, the flipside of that is if Jay doesn't live up to this messiah status he's coming to town carrying. I do think there is going to be an enormous amount of pressure on him. We'll see how he handles it.


So, to recap... I posted the writers own words and stated that the writer had no agenda for his opinions.

Unlike the idiots here who insisted that he was a fraud who was lying to sell books.

So, "Alf," or whatever your name is this week... maybe quit taking your cues from fuggin' idiots like BroncoMuff and learn to read, and this stuff won't be so tough for you to follow.

You guys called the writer a liar... not me.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 08:44 PM
"Backfired?"

Posting the writers own words "backfired" on me?


Doofus, did you read the guy's response?

Yeah, we read it. I even quoted it, and in Stephan's words showed how he contradicted you and your hostile and insulting criticism of broncogary. It was a real "snap!" ... guess you missed it.

A.L.F. .... he didn't read that smack-down post of mine about book sales, did he? :~ohyah!:

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 08:46 PM
ONCE MORE .....


Fatsis' does have an agenda. It's called selling books.Again, you make zero sense. Why would it "sell more books" to take up a position one way or another?

I wonder which of these two guys is right?

Hmmmmmm...... let's go to the source:

--Iím still writing about the Broncos to drum up book sales. Guilty as charged!

Popps, don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

SouthStndJunkie
04-08-2009, 08:49 PM
I read Stephan's book, too ... Loved it, Stephan.

Junkie, I can tell you he really, REALLY admires Jason - almost reveres him - every aspect of his life. I got the impression from reading Stephan's book that Jason is a kind of Renaissance man. I was very impressed with all the new stuff I learned about Jason ... and then we promptly let him go! :( I wish "A Few Seconds" had come out ten years earlier ... I might've bought an Elam jersey like stg.



Trust me, I was at the front of the pissed at letting Elam go line.

I coined the phrase 'MasterPrating will make you go blind'.

sfatsis
04-08-2009, 08:51 PM
A few responses:

Re Jake: He wasn't my closest friend on the team. He was someone I liked and admired and, as I write in the book, publicly welcomed me into the closed world of the NFL locker room, signaling to other players that it was cool to have me around. But it took weeks to get Jake to sit down for an interview -- mostly because he didn't want to squander his training camp downtime talking when he could be studying the playbook or resting between practices or getting out of Dove Valley on time to be with his girlfriend and dogs. Someone wondered who was my "best friend." I was close with some of the main guys in the book -- like Preston Parsons, Jason Elam and the punters Paul Ernster and Micah Knorr -- but also players that aren't profiled extensively, like Nate Jackson, Mike Leach, Charlie Adams, Kyle Johnson and Chad Mustard. Terrific people, one and all.

Lostknight: I never said I was detached from the events around me, or objective. In fact, in first-person journalism I think the reader should assume even more than the writer is affected by events -- hell, he better be or else why is he writing in the first person? What I meant is that I wrote what I experienced in as honest and straightforward a way as I could. My book isn't some polemic, I don't rip anyone, I don't puff anyone up because I have something to gain. I observed, talked, listened and analyzed. And I stuck around a long time -- and developed far closer relationships with the people who work(ed) for the Broncos than most beat reporters ever will. Bowlen and Shanahan will always have my deep gratitude for letting me in. But that doesn't mean I'll always endorse every action they take or decision they make.

Crowebomber: I do still speak with Scheffler occasionally, but I haven't since this all went down.

BroncoBuff: Selling books isn't an agenda. Everything doesn't have an ulterior motive. I wrote a book and want to ensure that people know I wrote a book, and to read it. That's part of the marketing process. But being a writer/commentator means writing/commenting on things you know well. Because I wrote a book about it, I know this subject pretty well. When I feel like I have something worth saying, I'll use the platforms available to me to say it.

Thanks again everyone. Always a pleasure.

Stefan

Popps
04-08-2009, 09:01 PM
Yeah, we read it. I even quoted it, and in Stephan's words showed how he contradicted you and your hostile and insulting criticism of broncogary. It was a real "snap!" ... guess you missed it.

A.L.F. .... he didn't read that smack-down post of mine about book sales, did he? :~ohyah!:

Let me recap the thread for you...

1. I post the guy's own words.
2. People jumped on me for posting it, calling him a liar...

You forgot to follow properly. He originally took the position against Cutler and now he's trying to drum up a few additional book sales with an "I told you so."


(Among others)

3. A few other people complimented the article, including myself.

4. SF comes in and states his case, basically restating what he said in the article of his own words... WHICH I POSTED.

5. A band of idiots begins championing some foolish notion that something "backfired," on someone... based on absolutely no sort of reality.


BroncoGary had no idea what he was talking about, and the writer cleared that up for him. He didn't invent an opinion on Cutler to sell books... he reported what he saw, which is what I said.

Popps
04-08-2009, 09:04 PM
ONCE MORE .....


Dude, if you're an attorney... it makes sense. Only an attorney could skew his joke of "guilty as charged" about a motivation to sell books into meaning... ."I lied about Cutler just to sell books."

theAPAOps5
04-08-2009, 09:05 PM
Mr. Fatsis,

Please know 1 thing, not everyone on the Mane is a child. Not everyone sir.

I'm sure you already know that, but I have never been as ashamed of the Mane as I have been the past few months, and for some reason, especially now.

My original post stands, what a great and indepth read!

Hope to hear more from you soon and often, often and often.

Thanks.

Broncomutt

Amen, well said, and excellent post.

baja
04-08-2009, 09:10 PM
Fatsis never did like Cutler, he wrote his book with the cooperation of Sundquist and the Plummer teams. I think he's got an ax to grind. Regardless, Fatsis' analysis of the team has soured since he left the team. Pretty crappy of him IMHO.<b> At least he doesn't throw Bowlen under the bus...

I don't know of anyone connected with the NFL that has anything bad to say about Pat Bowlen, In fact everyone signs his praises with the exception of a few emotion driven individuals here, he has respect around the league. I don't think Mr. Bowlen makes a mistake on the colossal level some here are accusing him of in the hiring of McDaniels.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 09:20 PM
I don't think Mr. Bowlen makes a mistake on the colossal level some here are accusing him of in the hiring of McDaniels.
In my opinion it was definitely NOT a mistake to hire Josh.

But it WAS a mistake to fire Goodman and give the kid Shanahan power.

baja
04-08-2009, 09:25 PM
In my opinion it was definitely NOT a mistake to hire Josh.

But it WAS a mistake to fire Goodman and give the kid Shanahan power.

Please don't start a cascade of large type and bolded phrases attempting to prove me wrong but I really do not see solid evidence that McDaniels has all this power you are knighting him with.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 09:37 PM
Dude, if you're an attorney... it makes sense. Only an attorney could skew his joke of "guilty as charged" about a motivation to sell books into meaning... ."I lied about Cutler just to sell books."

Nobody said anything about Fatsis lying about anything... that's your silly smokescreen to save face here. And me being an attorney, janitor, park ranger, whatever. It doesn't matter. Gary and I owned you there, big time. OWNED. In your words ... and in Fatsis' words.

It is SO VERY RARE to have somebody walk in and in his own words, humiliate another guy .... it's EXACTLY LIKE Woody Allen in "Play it Again, Sam," when a pretentious idiot in a movie line misquotes Marshall McLuhan about something, and Woody's character says, "You're wrong, and I have Marshall McCluhan right here to prove it." Then Woody brings McLuhan himself over and he says, "You know nothing of my work." ROFL!

You were so owned there, Popps, you should at least have the sack to say, "touche," or else maybe "never underestimate a good promoter," whatever. Anything but pretzel-twisting into why you were "right all a along...

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 09:48 PM
Please don't start a cascade of large type and bolded phrases attempting to prove me wrong but I really do not see solid evidence that McDaniels has all this power you are knighting him with.

CHeck out Pat Bowlen's letter to the season-ticket holders. He talks about "Josh's plan," "Josh's vision," "Josh's authority," and on and on. Mentions Xanders just once - in a tack-on to mentioning Josh.

Then go read Peter King's wrap-up story on the trade. King talks exclusively about Josh, And even more telling in that srticle, in the quotes, Bears GM Angelo refers only to Josh, and not to his own GM counterpart Xanders. That is VERY telling I think.

Pat Bowlen, Peter King, and another NFL GM who just made a blockbuster trade with the Broncos - all speak exclusively of Josh as the power here. So I think it's pretty clear Josh has at least near-Shanahan powers ... and Xanders is a Ted Sundquist at best. BTW, two guys who disagreed with me on that before (in the "power statement" thread about Josh saying "everything goes through me", remember?) have repped me that the Bowlen letter convinced them Josh is all in charge. Plus, I think it was BroncoInferno who agreed with me on that just today.


HEre: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2375156&postcount=156

I dunno, baja ... the evidence has mounted pretty high that Josh is squarely in charge of the whole enchilada, with near-Shanahan power. As Inferno points out, though ... that alone doesn't mean much. I just use that point to bolster my argument Josh is too inexperienced to have all that on his plate .... he should be COACH ONLY. At his age and with no front-office experience, that's enough.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 09:51 PM
I FOUND THE CLIP!

WOODY ALLEN = BroncoGary
PRETENTIOUS GUY = Popps
MARSHALL McLUHAN = Stephan Fatsis

At 2:00 in, Gary and Popps argue about whether Fatsis was trying to sell books ... they disagree strongly ... and at 2:25 in comes Fatsis himself from behind the movie billboard in the lobby and says, "Guilty as Charged!"

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VFo5Ky8YE8c&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VFo5Ky8YE8c&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

baja
04-08-2009, 10:04 PM
Go read Bowlen's letter to the season-ticket holders. He talks about "Josh's plan," "Josh's vision," "Josh's authority," and on and on. Mentions Xanders just once - in a tack-on to mentioning Josh.

Then go read Peter King's wrap-up story on the trade. King talks exclusively about Josh ... and more telling, the quotes from Bears GM Angelo refer only to Josh, and not his GM counterpart Xanders. That is VERY telling I think.

Bowlen, King, and another NFL GM who just made a blockbuster trade - all speak exclusively of Josh as the power here. So I think it's pretty clear Josh has at least near-Shanahan powers ... and Xanders is a Ted Sundquist at best. BTW, two guys who disagreed with me on that before (in the "power statement" thread about Josh saying "everything goes through me", remember?) have repped me that the Bowlen letter convinced them Josh is all in charge. Plus, I think it was BroncoInferno who agreed with me on that just today.


HEre: http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showpost.php?p=2375156&postcount=156

I dunno, baja ... the evidence has mounted pretty high that Josh is squarely in charge of the whole enchilada, with near-Shanahan power. As Inferno points out, though ... that alone doesn't mean much. I just use that to say bolster my argument he's too inexperienced to have all that on his plate .... he should be COACH ONLY. At his age and with no front-office experience, that's enough.

Your case is fairly compelling but I need more hard proof. No doubt mcd is the guy in the news but that does not translate into him having Shanahan type power. I have a hard time believing Bowlen would do that after his reasons for making the change. I'll say this if he is cowboying his way through this than us fans have a problem. I'm giving it more time.

Popps
04-08-2009, 10:05 PM
Nobody said anything about Fatsis lying about anything... that's your silly smokescreen to save face here. [/i]

Really? Better check out Fatsis' responses. He didn't single those people out for no reasons. Those were people who questioned his motivations, intentions and credibility....

Typical Fatsis. He says nice things about people who were nice to him, and bad things about people who were not.


Not really. Fatsis was nice about anyone who pretended that he really was a NFL player. He dissed anyone who thought he wasn't. It was a pretty horrifically self-serving book, because it existed to play him up as the central character...

Stephan Fatsis wrote a book with himself as a hero.

Fatsis never did like Cutler, he wrote his book with the cooperation of Sundquist and the Plummer teams. I think he's got an ax to grind. .

What really burns Fatsis is that Cutler caught him masterbating to a glossy 8x10 of Jake Plummer. When Fatsis tried to explain...Jay rolled his eyes. Two-weeks later when Fatis approached Jay about his book...Jay told him to get lost.

It's funny how that incident has stuck with Fatsis and he just can't seem to get over it...or his infatuation for Jake for that matter!

You forgot to follow properly. He originally took the position against Cutler and now he's trying to drum up a few additional book sales with an "I told you so."

And the biggest genius of the bashers... yourself.....

That's correct.

If you read the book, Fatsis was very anti-Cutler from the start. It's understandable if you know that Jake Plummer was the the best friend Fatsis made while writing the book. Jake and Paul Ernster and Preston Parsons.

And it's important to know Fatsis was not around for any of this, which makes him piping up now pretty strange ... you're right gary, he's prolly trying to sell more books. Nothin wrong with that I guess.


So, anything else I can help you with, Buff?


It wasn't until Fatsis himself came on this board that a few of you douche-bags changed your tune and became suddenly pseudo-civil. Pretty embarrassing, really. He'd probably have more respect for you if you had enough guts to just call him a liar like you did in your original post. Or, I guess you're going to tell me you weren't insinuating that, right? ::)


Again, I have no idea what you even think Fatsis said any differently than what I said, particularly because I POSTED HIS OWN WORDS.

Your misunderstanding of someone calling him a liar and Fatsis making a joke about selling books is your own reading issue. I thought it was pretty funny that Fatsis corrected you on your bull****, though. That was a nice bit of justice for you calling him a fraud.

I posted his words... you people called him a liar, now you're back-tracking.

And you're telling me to sack-up? That's rich.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 10:14 PM
No Popps ... you're conflating two separate points. The comment about him wanting to sell books was unrelated to which "side" he took ... Gary said he had an agenda in speaking up, he was efforting to stir up sales. You disagreed ... STRONGLY disagreed. You insulted and name-called Gary. And you were owned on that point when Fatsis showed up.

(gawd, why are we arguing this minutae?)

You're a good poster, Popps, don't go twisting and squirming while you hammer this into the ground ... just say, "touche," and move on.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 10:16 PM
I got yer "civil" right here ...

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3914/20090324mcdanielsp1.jpg

Popps
04-08-2009, 10:22 PM
No Popps ... you're conflating two separate points. The comment about him wanting to sell books was unrelated to which "side" he took ... Gary said he had an agenda in speaking up, he was efforting to stir up sales.

No.

Gary said he "took up a position" against Cutler.

He followed up by saying that any additional writing on Cutler was solely to "sell books."


Fatsis came in and corrected him very clearly and distinctly.

He also corrected you for piling on with Gary, calling him a fraud.

You and Gary's implications that anything he wrote must just be bull**** specifically invented to sell books was clearly based on you and Gary not agreeing with his position that Cutler has a personality issue. (Fatsis is just one of an army of people out there saying this, at this point.)

The touche' should be coming from you, boss. I've told you for a couple years now that there was something off about this kid's personality, and now someone with experience inside camp confirmed this to be the case.

So, you'd better examine this whole thing again and figure it out... then you can come apologize for screwing it up.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 10:23 PM
I got yer "civil" right here ...

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/825/20090324mcdanielsp1l.jpg

baja
04-08-2009, 10:23 PM
<b>It wasn't until Fatsis himself came on this board</b> that a few of you douche-bags changed your tune and became suddenly pseudo-civil. Pretty embarrassing, really. He'd probably have more respect for you if you had enough guts to just call him a liar like you did in your original post. Or, I guess you're going to tell me you weren't insinuating that, right?

Where is this post from Fatsis ?

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 10:29 PM
<b>It wasn't until Fatsis himself came on this board</b> that a few of you douche-bags changed your tune and became suddenly pseudo-civil. Pretty embarrassing, really. He'd probably have more respect for you if you had enough guts to just call him a liar like you did in your original post. Or, I guess you're going to tell me you weren't insinuating that, right?

Where is this post from Fatsis ?

He didn't actually say much if any of what Popps is attributing to him. It's a convoluted and inacurate interpretation. I seriously doubt Stephan Fatsis is gonna weigh in on any of our petty nonsense. broncomutt was right in apologizing prolly.

All I was referring to when I nailed Popps was the motivation to sell books ... Popps said it wouldn't even help him to sell books, and then Fatsis showed up as if on cue and said yes, he was trying to sell books.

Nothing wrong with that ...

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 10:31 PM
Just two reps and one quote?


Sheesh, that PhotoShop is a classic ... I'm just sayin'

baja
04-08-2009, 10:39 PM
Just two reps and one quote?


Sheesh, that PhotoShop is a classic ... I'm just sayin'

Don't ya hate that when you are under reped. ;D

Popps
04-08-2009, 10:40 PM
He didn't actually say f what Popps is attributing to him .

Well, I posted his own words... literally, his very own words. So, you're a very obtuse guy, but even for you, that's a stretch.

broncomutt was right in apologizing prolly.
.

Huh? You're the one that called him a liar. Why don't YOU apologize?


Popps said it wouldn't even help him to sell books,

Wow, you can't possibly be that stupid. Honestly, you really can't. Is it that you can't read, or don't want to? I've disagreed with you in the past but at least thought you were of normal adult intelligence. That's, again just embarrassing.


A Fatsis showed up as if on cue and said yes, he was trying to sell books.

Nothing wrong with that ...

Gosh, really? A writer wants to sell books? Thanks, Buff! What would we do without you.

O.K., Counsel... I'll lay it out so even you can understand it...



Here is what Fatsis said...

--Iím still writing about the Broncos to drum up book sales. Guilty as charged!


Did you catch that part about "writing about the Broncos?"


Now, I could be wrong... I've read that quote a few times, but I'm still looking for where it says "I lied about Cutler being a personality problem just so I could sell books."

Is it there, Buff? Maybe I'm missing it.

See, "writing about the Broncos" is just a wee-bit different than being a liar and a fraud, which you and Gary insinuated in no uncertain terms.


So, you keep spinning until you can make this feel right, bro. I'll be here to help you sort it all out.

Popps
04-08-2009, 10:47 PM
ONCE MORE .....
?

Oh, wow... you're once again re-stating an incorrect position?

Well, that must mean you're correct now!

ROFL!


Again, Buff... if you can't understand the difference between...

1. Being a fraud and a liar to sell books

and

2. Writing about the Broncos to sell books...

I don't know how to help you. But, Fatsis already corrected you for calling him a fraud, so I'm not sure why you need me to do it, as well.

Popps
04-08-2009, 10:55 PM
Post # 38

By Popps: Again, you're looking for a conspiracy theory here, but again.. this guy has no real reason to go after anyone. Champ Bailey isn't the most talkative guy in the world, judging by what I read. Yet, SF had no need to point out him having character flaws.

This guy has been a straight shooter up until now, taking positions as he sees them, whether or not it makes him popular. So, your efforts to shoot the messenger (common with regards to this scenario) fall a little flat.

This isn't a guy in his room writing a blog. It's someone who spent (and spends) a lot of time around these people, and even shares mutual friends.

(Recap - He's got no motivation to lie about Cutler, specifically.)


Then, the follow-up by Buff's new hero BroncoGary...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostknight
Typical Fatsis. He says nice things about people who were nice to him, and bad things about people who were not.

-----

BroncoGary says...... I think this pretty well sums it up. And Fatsis' does have an agenda. It's called selling books.


So, Gary goes ahead and states his position that he (like some others) believes Fatsis to be a fraud. Then, claims the agenda for that behavior is based purely in selling books.

Pretty simple.

Hope that helps, Buff. Let me know if there's anything else.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 11:22 PM
anonymous and interesting .........

The first guy is you of course, each of the rest are from different people ....


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5865/poppsa.png

24champ
04-08-2009, 11:36 PM
Popps, don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

I hit the snooze this morning and had one of those asleep/awake dreams that I heard on the radio we signed Cutler to a massive contract extension.

So, with that scientific data to draw upon, I'll say this gets resolved. I still believe it's in everyone's best interest, however big of a baby Cutler may be.


How does the Cutler Saga End (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2574)

Popps
04-08-2009, 11:40 PM
anonymous and interesting .........

The first guy is you of course, each of the rest are from different people ....


http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/5865/poppsa.png

Wow, some people agree with you? Amazing!! There are at least 5 people that stupid on this very thread.

Is this a news-flash?

Pretty funny that after being destroyed in the argument (by simply using the posts on this thread)... you resort to "nanny-nanny boo-boo."

Nice work, Mr. Lawyer.

I love the guy who calls for me to be "banned," though. As if disagreeing with people is a ban-justifying offense. ROFL!

Popps
04-08-2009, 11:41 PM
How does the Cutler Saga End (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=2574)

Thanks for re-posting that, and I guess almost stalking me. I'm flattered.

It would have been nice for it to work out. But, Jay was even more of a head-case than I could have imagined.

BroncoBuff
04-08-2009, 11:59 PM
Pretty funny that after being destroyed in the argument (by simply using the posts on this thread)...

You're the only one who thinks that ... and that's the problem.

24champ
04-09-2009, 12:00 AM
It would have been nice for it to work out. But, Jay was even more of a head-case than I could have imagined.


Dude you remind me of John Kerry...so which is it, you were for Cutler staying or against it? You stated it's in the best interest of the Broncos to keep Cutler.

Now your saying it was in the best interest of the Broncos all along to get rid of him.

Popps...whichever way the wind blows when it comes to the Broncos. ::)

Popps
04-09-2009, 12:01 AM
You're the only one who thinks that ... and that's the problem.

Well, Mr. Attorney... I put the posts from this VERY thread in chronological order for you to refute.

Your rebuttal?

Nanny-nanny-boo-boo.

Posting pictures of your rep to show that some people like you and not me.

WOW!

Quality stuff there, law-guy.

Popps
04-09-2009, 12:05 AM
Dude you remind me of John Kerry...so which is it, you were for Cutler staying or against it? You stated it's in the best interest of the Broncos to keep Cutler.)

I still believe it would have been, but Jay didn't want to be here. As time went on, that became more and more apparent. He's an aloof malcontent who was used as a puppet by a slick agent, imo. He had no intention of returning here.

But, had Jay come to his senses... of course, how could we not be a better team with him in the fold? I think he has holes in his game, but I would have liked to see McD have a chance to help him iron them out.

So, sure... a well-adjusted Cutler would have been great. That never happened, so there came a time to move on, and in retrospect... I'm happy we did, since he wasn't going to change.

C'mon, dude. I know you're bitter with me... but that's not that hard to follow. It's the same sentiment a lot of folks around here felt.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 12:32 AM
Well, Mr. Attorney... I put the posts from this VERY thread in chronological order for you to refute.

Your rebuttal?

Posting pictures of your rep to show that some people like you and not me.

No no ... it's not a matter of "liking," it's more a matter of you seemed so co****re that your Fatsis argument was a winner (hmmm...) and I was trying to point out nobody else thought so. Nobody. Nobody agreed in the posts, and I was showing you nobody agreed to me in rep (and believe me, people HAMMER me in rep sometimes), so if my zinger against you in here, and our subsequent back-and-forth had been your victory, somebody else wouldda noticed.

Actually, there is a guy who has posted in THIS THREAD, and has been quoted several times, who DESTROYED me in a neg-rep a week ago:


http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3892/poppsl.png

So you see? People hate me at least as much as they hate you ... :~ohyah!:


Quality stuff there, law-guy.

"Law guy"?!

What are you, Powers Boothe in Tombstone?

That's like the 3rd time you've called me a lawyer in a derogatory way ... as if it somehow helps your tortured logic. Consider me a janitor from now on, we'll go from there.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 12:37 AM
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3892/poppsl.png

ALRIGHT! The guy who wrote this to me better step up and claim it in public!

I am serious! .... If you don't step up in the next couple days and admit it was you who wrote this broncomutt ... I'm gonna expose you as the BroncoBuff hater you really are!





(oops...)

Popps
04-09-2009, 12:40 AM
No no ... it's not a matter of "liking," it's more a matter of you seemed so co****re that your Fatsis argument was a winner

Again, you're using the same idiots that leave neg-rep for you as your basis for how your "zinger" worked so well?

If the issue was simply...

-Does SF write books and then do subsequent article to promote them...

the answer would be yes.

But, for whatever reason, you've made it your life's work to protect this Gary person who slammed Fatsis, and called him a fraud.

Again, it's a simple as it can be, Buff. My contention was not with the theory that writers have an agenda to sell books. My contention was with several people (including you) making the assumption that his book was fabricated strictly to sell those books.

See the difference?

I hope so, because they are two vastly different concepts. One (writers wanting to sell books) is a given... the other (writers lying to sell books) is another.

My Fatsis "argument," as you call it... was simply that he had no real advantage by making up things skewed against Cutler as opposed to (let's say) skewed in Cutler's favor. In fact, perhaps he could have even sold more books taking an anti-Broncos position. But, he didn't.

So, Fatsis came in and plainly confirmed my (obvious) theory to be correct. It wasn't brain-surgery. It was simple math. EITHER SIDE could have been used to sell books, and he had no reason to lie just to be a mean-guy to Cutler.

You just can't accept his position because you don't agree with it, so you needed to call him a liar.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 12:51 AM
Again, you're using the same idiots that leave neg-rep for you as your basis for how your "zinger" worked so well?

Not that my zinger worked, but that your argument did not.



If the issue was simply... -Does SF write books and then do subsequent article to promote them... the answer would be yes.

There you go ... that's all that particular part and subsequent zinger was. Gary said "Fatsis has an agenda, to sell books." To that you insulted him. But Fatsis said yes, he wrote about Broncos/Cutler to stir up sales of the book.


But, for whatever reason, you've made it your life's work to protect this Gary person who slammed Fatsis, and called him a fraud.

Gary never said that ... you have extrapolated and twisted and took bits out of context to prop up flimsy conclusions that when you held them up to the light at just the right angle might maybe seem like that ... but he never did such a thing. And you've thrown around so many insults in here, I swear you must be foaming at the mouth by now .....


You just can't accept his position because you don't agree with it, so you needed to call him a liar.

Never hapened, I never said or inferred any such thing about Stephan Fatsis. And that makes me the third person (at least) you've accused of insulting Fatsis/calling him a liar in this thread.


Gawd, this thread is gay ... HOW DO I GET THE LAST THREE HOURS OF MY LIFE BACK?!?!

Popps
04-09-2009, 01:07 AM
Not that my zinger worked, but that your argument did not.


Well, my "argument" was simply that he had no need to fabricate in any one direction.

Fatsis came in and stated as much. We could have ended the conversation there, but... not Buff!




There you go ... that's all that particular part and subsequent zinger was. Gary said "Fatsis has an agenda, to sell books." To that you insulted him. But Fatsis said yes, he wrote about Broncos/Cutler to stir up sales of the book.

Again, Buff... if you are what you say you are, then details should be important to you, and you're leaving out a BIG one.

Gary's sentence was this...
He originally took the position against Cutler and now he's trying to drum up a few additional book sales with an "I told you so."

See, now... that's an entire world of difference than what Fatsis himself said, which was this...

Iím still writing about the Broncos to drum up book sales.



See the difference there, Matlock?

One is a guy claiming that a position was fabricated and that position was only mentioned again to sell books.

See, here's the post Gary was responding to:

Typical Fatsis. He says nice things about people who were nice to him, and bad things about people who were not.

Here's Gary's response, confirming that he does indeed think Fatsis' work is fraudulent...

I think this pretty well sums it up. And Fatsis' does have an agenda. It's called selling books.



Get it yet, boss?

No one takes issue with a writer trying to sell books. (Are you ****ing serious with that?) The issue is THE MEANS BY WHICH THAT WRITER DOES SO.

My simple comment was that he didn't need to fabricate stories about Cutler's personality to sell books... rather, they were probably just observations.

Gary's (and your) response was that he did indeed need to fabricate positions to sell books.

Can't make it any simpler for you, dude.

Popps
04-09-2009, 01:09 AM
I’m still writing about the Broncos to drum up book sales.

That sentence alone is nothing like what was said about him. He's just saying he writes about all of this stuff ("the Broncos") to sell books.

That's what the guy does.

Calling him a liar is very different. Journalists don't tend to appreciate that.

broncogary
04-09-2009, 04:32 AM
I FOUND THE CLIP!

WOODY ALLEN = BroncoGary

I would have been happier with Cary Grant or Sean Connery. :D

BroncoInSkinland
04-09-2009, 07:23 AM
Hello Mane. Good to be back. Continued thanks to those of you who have offered kind words about my work, in the past and again now. I do appreciate it. I just wanted to clear up a few things in the aftermath of my New York Times post about Cutler saga:

--I think it was all Jayís fault. I donít, and my post probably should have been more critical of the new front office (which I was when I talked about it on NPR last week and will be when Iím on the Paul Finebaum radio show today). Based on my conversations, thereís plenty of blame to go around. McDaniels wasnít enamored of Jay from the beginning. Jay was pissed about Bates leaving. McDaniels and Xanders were outmaneuvered in the trade talks and botched the spin, both privately and publicly. McDaniels didnít take the reasonable and necessary step of reassuring Jay. Jay didnít take the reasonable and necessary step of communicating better with the team, and leaving his agent out of it. Bowlen may have overreacted with the weíre-trading-Jay announcement.

In a way this reinforces one of the themes of A Few Seconds of Panic: that the NFL is a dysfunctional work place. But I stand by my opinion of Jayís ability (great) and personality (challenged), and think the Broncos did consider both. Ultimately, though, it all spiraled out of control. I think both sides look bad, I think McDaniels and Xanders have a lot to learn (and prove),and I think Jay has some growing up to do in Chicago.

--Iím still writing about the Broncos to drum up book sales. Guilty as charged! I do want people to read my work, and Iím proud of the book. More important, though, I have a different perspective on the NFL. I was the only second person in the history of the league allowed to suit up with a team for training camp. I know many of the principals involved with the Broncos better and from a more personal perspective than other writers. Anyway, the paperback will be out in August! With a new afterword!

--Cutler blew me off. Shortly after arriving in Denver, and before I knew him well, I did say to Jay one day that maybe we could sit down and talk some time. (As I mention in the book, I spent the hours between practices in empty meeting rooms talking to players with the tape recorder rolling.) It quickly became clear to me that he wasnít interested in doing that and, first-round draft pick or not, wasnít terribly interesting and wouldnít be much help to in writing about life in the NFL. I never asked again. Jay was occasionally snarky or rude to me, but there were times when I went out with him and some of our mutual friends on the team.

--Other rookies blew me off, too. Someone wrote that Tony Scheffler didnít talk to me and isnít in the book. Actually, Tony was one of my closest friends on the team. And I do write about him a fair amount. He had a pretty rough rookie year, youíll recall.

--I only wrote about people who were nice to me. Actually, I chose to write about people who were smart, thoughtful and had something interesting to say about their jobs. I donít actually trash anyone, including Jay (unless you consider my describing and profiling Todd Sauerbrun trashing him). I write about a range of players, some of whom became good friends, some of whom didnít Ė from main ďcharactersĒ like Plummer, Parsons and Elam, to regulars like Foxworth and Warren, to marginal players like P.J. Alexander. I did a long interview with John Lynch, whom I admire and was great to me, but it didnít add much so I didnít use it. Champ Bailey and Rod Smith were completely fine with having me around and perfectly friendly, but they werenít interested in sitting down for a talk. Tom Nalen also didnít want to be in the book, and he gave me grief all summer, but it was good-natured (I think) and I really like him.

I had no agenda, favored no one and wrote about what I experienced. I had no axes to grind then and don't have any now. Really.

Thanks,
Stefan Fatsis

Hmmm, seems reasonable. I haven't read much of his stuff, might have to change that. Good publicity job there Mr. Fatsis.

TonyR
04-09-2009, 08:12 AM
I was very impressed with all the new stuff I learned about Jason ... and then we promptly let him go!

Just a note on this, I could be wrong on this but if I remember the situation correctly the Broncos made a "fair" offer to Elam but weren't willing to go as far as the Falcons were. I don't pretend to know the whole situation so I shouldn't judge but I was disappointed in him. Taking a little more money to uproot his family and leave the place he'd been for 15 years, and he went to an organization that at the time was in shambles. Personally not what I would have done but I'm not him and as I said I don't know the whole story.

TonyR
04-09-2009, 08:18 AM
Popps, don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

Perhaps this has already been addressed in one of the many posts I didn't read but quite frankly I don't think Popps is wrong at all here. Popps NEVER said, that I can see, that Fatsis didn't want to sell more books. What he did say is that Fatsis wasn't motivated to take a position one way or another in order to sell books. Very simple distinction, really, and I'm surprised you don't see it.

Broncomutt
04-09-2009, 08:20 AM
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/3892/poppsl.png

ALRIGHT! The guy who wrote this to me better step up and claim it in public!

I am serious! .... If you don't step up in the next couple days and admit it was you who wrote this broncomutt ... I'm gonna expose you as the BroncoBuff hater you really are!





(oops...)

Didn't think anybody ever actually read my ****....:flush:

For what it's worth I don't hate you Buff. I reserve hatred for Chief fans and my family.

Admittedly our views are about as polar opposite as they can be. I personally have loved every minute of this off-season and would not change a single thing, while your perspective of the off-season seems to be one of upheval and disarray. I'm upset with Cutler, your upset with McDaniels.

I'm the type of guy who can respect others opinions though. You were the first person I ever neg-repped and after I did it, and recieved your response which surprised me, I felt really bad. That's why I gave you a pos-rep a few days later. You are obviously a Bronco fan, so you can't be all bad.

I do think that Mr. Fatsis article and responses in this thread were excellently written. In fact, they are word for word what I would write, if I had things like facts, experience, logic or familiarity in my repetoire. Alas, I can only post my gut feelings, which scary enough, seem to have been pretty accurate recently.

I don't post often, but I am here at the Mane almost everyday for nearly 5 years. My first stop for Bronco news for a lifetime "out of towner". Just hope we don't scare quality posters like sfatsis off.

My apologies for the neg-rep Buff. But I still think you're wrong about almost everything.:bronxrox:

Beantown Bronco
04-09-2009, 08:21 AM
Just a note on this, I could be wrong on this but if I remember the situation correctly the Broncos made a "fair" offer to Elam but weren't willing to go as far as the Falcons were. I don't pretend to know the whole situation so I shouldn't judge but I was disappointed in him. Taking a little more money to uproot his family and leave the place he'd been for 15 years, and he went to an organization that at the time was in shambles. Personally not what I would have done but I'm not him and as I said I don't know the whole story.

Closer to where he grew up in FL?

Also, he's obviously trying to get some consideration for the HOF. What better way to pad your numbers than by kicking in a dome for over half your games?

USMCBladerunner
04-09-2009, 08:39 AM
You're the only one who thinks that ... and that's the problem.

He's not the only one...he's jsut the only one with time or the inclination to argue with people who choose to willfully disregard the detailed context and content of a previous argument.

Popps make it very clear that he disagreed with the assertion that Fatsis painted Cutler in a unkind light in an effort to bring more sales to his book.

Stefan acknowledging a motiviation to sell books (every author does, so this clearly couldn't have been the point of contention) is not an acknowledgement of slandering Jay Cutler as a means to attract buyers.

baja
04-09-2009, 09:21 AM
He's not the only one...he's jsut the only one with time or the inclination to argue with people who choose to willfully disregard the detailed context and content of a previous argument.

Popps make it very clear that he disagreed with the assertion that Fatsis painted Cutler in a unkind light in an effort to bring more sales to his book.

Stefan acknowledging a motiviation to sell books (every author does, so this clearly couldn't have been the point of contention) is not an acknowledgement of slandering Jay Cutler as a means to attract buyers.

Ya I meant to weight in on this too. I agree Popps made his case.

BroncoBuff
04-09-2009, 08:32 PM
My apologies for the neg-rep Buff. But I still think you're wrong about almost everything.:bronxrox:

Hahaha ... and I'm sorry I "outed" you there.

The thing I wonder is, why did it take you four years to tell me? hmmm...

Truth is, you repped me like the very next days something like, "You are a true Broncos fan, I'll give ya that." And that's the bottom line, my friend :thumbs:

_________________
.http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3914/20090324mcdanielsp1.jpg

Atwater His Ass
04-09-2009, 08:44 PM
It's fun watching an internet tough guy like popps get owned. I like seeing those 3-4 posts in a row when he's in full panic/spin mode.

Popps
04-09-2009, 09:52 PM
It's fun watching an internet tough guy like popps get owned. I like seeing those 3-4 posts in a row when he's in full panic/spin mode.

Internet "tough guy?"

What's that make you, an internet pussy?

Buff ignored simple and obvious context in order to create an position that didn't exist. He may be too stupid to realize it, but I doubt it. Seems like the old deliberately obtuse thing.

Several other posters have chimed in with how obvious it was. But, Buff is still pretending to be (or is) stupid. Again, you can either read... or you can't. That's pretty much where the division lies with this discussion.

As for you, I have no idea why you're chasing me around biting at my heels.
Whatever floats your boat.

vancejohnson82
04-10-2009, 07:45 AM
I like keeping this at the top of the front page....there's something very interesting to me about a group of people calling out a journalist, the journalist signing on to clear his name, and then the spin on the argument afterwards to try and save face.....

its also funny to see the pack of hyenas that jumped on Popps (who I think is right) in this thread.....and then they claimed that they owned him....

ahhhhh, the internet

Popps
04-10-2009, 09:19 AM
[B]its also funny to see the pack of hyenas


:rofl:

http://www.jaunted.com/files/3873/hyena_pup.jpg
"Dude, I pwned you."

Tombstone RJ
04-10-2009, 09:35 AM
A few responses:

Re Jake: He wasn't my closest friend on the team. He was someone I liked and admired and, as I write in the book, publicly welcomed me into the closed world of the NFL locker room, signaling to other players that it was cool to have me around. But it took weeks to get Jake to sit down for an interview -- mostly because he didn't want to squander his training camp downtime talking when he could be studying the playbook or resting between practices or getting out of Dove Valley on time to be with his girlfriend and dogs. Someone wondered who was my "best friend." I was close with some of the main guys in the book -- like Preston Parsons, Jason Elam and the punters Paul Ernster and Micah Knorr -- but also players that aren't profiled extensively, like Nate Jackson, Mike Leach, Charlie Adams, Kyle Johnson and Chad Mustard. Terrific people, one and all.

Lostknight: I never said I was detached from the events around me, or objective. In fact, in first-person journalism I think the reader should assume even more than the writer is affected by events -- hell, he better be or else why is he writing in the first person? What I meant is that I wrote what I experienced in as honest and straightforward a way as I could. My book isn't some polemic, I don't rip anyone, I don't puff anyone up because I have something to gain. I observed, talked, listened and analyzed. And I stuck around a long time -- and developed far closer relationships with the people who work(ed) for the Broncos than most beat reporters ever will. Bowlen and Shanahan will always have my deep gratitude for letting me in. But that doesn't mean I'll always endorse every action they take or decision they make.

Crowebomber: I do still speak with Scheffler occasionally, but I haven't since this all went down.

BroncoBuff: Selling books isn't an agenda. Everything doesn't have an ulterior motive. I wrote a book and want to ensure that people know I wrote a book, and to read it. That's part of the marketing process. But being a writer/commentator means writing/commenting on things you know well. Because I wrote a book about it, I know this subject pretty well. When I feel like I have something worth saying, I'll use the platforms available to me to say it.

Thanks again everyone. Always a pleasure.

Stefan

Thanks for the response Stefan. I purchased your book and read it with great interest, you accomplished what you set out to accomplish with great skill.

That being said, I'm somewhat disappointed on your opinions about the Broncos organization since you published the book. Obviously, it's hard for you to be objective in your opinions since you spent a good deal of time on the inside. I don't expect you to cowtow to Bowlen just because he let you in. But I would think you'd be a little more "diplomatic" in your criticisim of the team.

Best wishes and keep writing great books! I do love me some great non-fiction!