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View Full Version : Inexperienced Broncos brass thrust into fire with haul of draft picks


broncofan7
04-03-2009, 03:38 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_trotter/04/03/cutler/index.html


On Halloween Day 1987, the then Los Angeles Rams traded franchise running back Eric Dickerson to the Indianapolis Colts in a three-team deal that included the Buffalo Bills.

When the football world was done shaking its head and bulging its eyes at each new detail, the Rams ultimately came away with running backs Greg Bell and Owen Gill and six draft choices over the next two years: three in the first round and three more in the second.

It was considered an incredible haul at the time, but we now know the Rams wound up with little more than fool's gold.

Might the Denver Broncos be on the cusp of repeating history after dealing quarterback Jay Cutler and a fifth-round pick to the Chicago Bears for two No. 1s, a No. 3 and QB Kyle Orton? The question is valid considering neither of the men running the Broncos' draft has ever had the final say-so in a war room.

In the case of the Rams, in 1988 they used two of the first-round picks they got in the Dickerson deal on running back Gaston Green (14th overall) and wide receiver Aaron Cox (20th) and a second-rounder on linebacker Fred Strickland (47th). They used the three other picks the next year on running back Cleveland Gary (26th), linebacker Frank Stams (45th) and defensive back Darryl Henley (53rd).

At best, the players were journeymen. At worst, they were busts.

If Denver can convert the picks they received into impact players, the Broncos will be in position to improve on their one postseason win since the 1998 season. However, if the Broncos miss as badly as the Rams did two decades ago, they will be the new poster franchise on how not to conduct business.

Though the decision-makers have changed, recent history is not on their side.

Not only are new head coach Josh McDaniels and general manager Brian Xanders running a draft for the first time, but also the Broncos' drafts this decade under former coach Mike Shanahan reveal a stunningly disproportionate number of misses. They get passing marks for 2008, when they acquired offensive tackle Ryan Clady and wide receiver Eddie Royal with their first two picks; and 2006, when they selected five starters among their seven choices in Cutler, wide receiver Brandon Marshall, pass rusher Elvis Dumervil, tight end Tony Scheffler and guard Chris Kuper (although this class loses its luster when you consider Cutler is gone, Scheffler could soon follow, and Marshall recently underwent hip surgery).

My issue with Denver is that only four of the 50 selections it made from 2000 to 2005 are still on the team. That translates to eight percent. These are the draft classes that should be the core of the team; veterans who are on their second contracts and understand what the game and the league is about. The Broncos' ineptitude in the draft under Shanahan further underlines how difficult it can be for franchises to get it right in April.

Will McDaniels, 32, and Xanders, 37, do better than their predecessor, who had total control over football operations? Perhaps. But former Atlanta executive Ken Herock sounded a trumpet of caution earlier this year in an interview with Jeff Legwold, then of the Rocky Mountain News.

While with the Falcons in 1994, Herock hired Xanders primarily to work with the salary cap. When asked about Xanders in his new position, Herock praised his football background but added: "Brian's never scouted on the road. He doesn't have those experiences going on the road, being at the practices, getting in there and getting to know guys. That's his challenge. He knows the cap, he understands the cap and he knows the technology that's used now to get the job done. His big thing will be to make the call on whether a guy can play or not and that now he has to know it all.

"He has to be on target, and he's got to know everything -- free agency, the draft, the top player in Canada, what you're going to do with the developmental squad, all of it. You have to know what the hell is going on, and just being astute, just knowing the technology can't save you. You have to find players, it's that simple."

Perhaps Xanders will prove to be more than ready for the role. Again, Herock spoke highly of him. But there are no guarantees in the NFL, and the draft is the biggest crapshoot going.

The Broncos have gone out of their way to say the draft will be a collaboration between Xanders and McDaniels, but at the owners meetings last week, McDaniels intimated on multiple occasions that all personnel decisions will run through him. Part of the reason McDaniels got the job (and so much authority) was his stint in New England, where most recently he was the offensive coordinator under Bill Belichick.

Because Belichick won three Super Bowls in four years this decade, seemingly every owner in need of a new head coach has tried to pick from his tree of assistants. However, it should be noted that none of Belichick's recent protégés has succeeded as head coaches -- not Romeo Crennel with the Browns, Eric Mangini with the Jets, nor Charlie Weis with Notre Dame. And Belichick didn't get it right until his second coaching stint, after bombing in Cleveland.

The feeling among many around the league is McDaniels tried to handle the Cutler situation as if he were Belichick. The problem, at this point, is he lacks the résumé. Maybe Cutler was a pain in his backside, a player with a strong arm and stronger will for wanting things his way. But he also was a proven commodity. When I asked Raiders cornerback Nnamdi Asomugha on Thursday about Cutler, whom he calls a buddy, he told me: "He was arguably the top QB in the [AFC] West, so I'm not upset to see him leave. He should bring success to the Bears. [He's a] top eight QB."

If the Broncos don't get it right with the draft picks they acquired, the trade could rival the Rams debacle with Dickerson as one of the worst in league history.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-03-2009, 03:43 PM
Wow, what a load of bull**** that entire article is.

Finger Roll
04-03-2009, 03:44 PM
scouting is alot better nowdays not nearly as many first round busts. Also, didn't Dickerson suck with the Colts?

SonOfLe-loLang
04-03-2009, 03:44 PM
scouting is alot better nowdays not nearly as many first round busts. Also, didn't Dickerson suck with the Colts?

he was good in tecmo bowl "Dickerso"

broncofan7
04-03-2009, 03:45 PM
Wow, what a load of bull**** that entire article is.

So if we don't draft well, then it was ok to trade Jay C for Kyle Orton. I see your point......:thumbsdow

lostknight
04-03-2009, 04:07 PM
This is a real real concern. This was a concern _before_ Jay left, when we fired the Goodmans. It's a even worse situation now.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-03-2009, 04:10 PM
So if we don't draft well, then it was ok to trade Jay C for Kyle Orton. I see your point......:thumbsdow

No, asshole, its stupid to suggest they won't draft well because a team in a similar situation 20 years ago didn't. Its talk for talk

Rohirrim
04-03-2009, 04:13 PM
Leave it to SI to bust the stupid meter. Maybe they should look at Nolan's record of drafting D in SF?

DenverBroncosJM
04-03-2009, 04:15 PM
So if we don't draft well, then it was ok to trade Jay C for Kyle Orton. I see your point......:thumbsdow

His point is if you speed down highway 18 20 years ago and get hit by a semi doesnt mean if I speed down highway 18 20 years later I will be too.

gyldenlove
04-03-2009, 04:19 PM
No, a-hole, its stupid to suggest they won't draft well because a team in a similar situation 20 years ago didn't. Its talk for talk

Did you even read it?

He is suggesting that we may not draft well since none of our front office guys have any experience, which is true. Mcdaniels was never involved with scouting or evaluations in New England and Xanders was a cap guy for the Falcons.

Some positions have as high a success rate as 70% when drafted in the 1st round, others are down around 30% with the current hit/miss ratio being about a little better than 1 hit per miss. Of the 2 first rounders we got, odds are that only 1 will become a starter in the long term, and we are down to about 33% chance that the 3rd rounder will be a starter. This is assuming that 2 rookies can draft at the league average, if they go below average we could be looking at Kyle Orton and 3 backups in return for Cutler.

Bronx33
04-03-2009, 04:21 PM
trash

BroncsRule
04-03-2009, 04:28 PM
His point is if you speed down highway 18 20 years ago and get hit by a semi doesnt mean if I speed down highway 18 20 years later I will be too.

This offseason feels like getting hit by a semi.

broncofan7
04-03-2009, 04:34 PM
Did you even read it?

He is suggesting that we may not draft well since none of our front office guys have any experience, which is true. Mcdaniels was never involved with scouting or evaluations in New England and Xanders was a cap guy for the Falcons.

Some positions have as high a success rate as 70% when drafted in the 1st round, others are down around 30% with the current hit/miss ratio being about a little better than 1 hit per miss. Of the 2 first rounders we got, odds are that only 1 will become a starter in the long term, and we are down to about 33% chance that the 3rd rounder will be a starter. This is assuming that 2 rookies can draft at the league average, if they go below average we could be looking at Kyle Orton and 3 backups in return for Cutler.

I have no doubt that son -of LELO -lang read the article--he simply is incapable of grasping that facts about the article that you wrote above. Good take.

elsid13
04-03-2009, 04:37 PM
Leave it to SI to bust the stupid meter. Maybe they should look at Nolan's record of drafting D in SF?

That not a pretty picture either. I bet if we ask SF fans what they thought of his drafting ability it would be on par or worse the what we thought of Shanahan's. Beside Willis there has been a lot of great draft choices by SF under Nolan leadership.

Br0nc0Buster
04-03-2009, 04:37 PM
Did you even read it?

He is suggesting that we may not draft well since none of our front office guys have any experience, which is true. Mcdaniels was never involved with scouting or evaluations in New England and Xanders was a cap guy for the Falcons.
Some positions have as high a success rate as 70% when drafted in the 1st round, others are down around 30% with the current hit/miss ratio being about a little better than 1 hit per miss. Of the 2 first rounders we got, odds are that only 1 will become a starter in the long term, and we are down to about 33% chance that the 3rd rounder will be a starter. This is assuming that 2 rookies can draft at the league average, if they go below average we could be looking at Kyle Orton and 3 backups in return for Cutler.

Didnt McDaniels start out doing defensive scouting for the Pats?

broncofan7
04-03-2009, 04:45 PM
In summary, for all of the Dolts who need to be spoon fed--draft picks are a gamble, no matter who is doing the drafting--and that is ESPECIALLY TRUE when the people orchestrating our team's draft are VERY inexperienced relative to the other 31 NFL teams.

This writer provided the Rams as an example of when a plethora of draft picks don't pan out--and that was with FO execs who were experienced relative to ours!. How some cannot comprehend this is beyond me.....

BroncoBuff
04-03-2009, 04:48 PM
Where have you gone Jim Goodman?!

That Josh has really cut a wide swath through this organization. I hope the kid knows what he's doing.

Rohirrim
04-03-2009, 04:51 PM
That not a pretty picture either. I bet if we ask SF fans what they thought of his drafting ability it would be on par or worse the what we thought of Shanahan's. Beside Willis there has been a lot of great draft choices by SF under Nolan leadership.


Patrick Willis, Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, and Manny Lawson and he brought in Nate Clements. That's not too shabby. Nolan actually has a pretty good record (other than the Alex Smith/Rodgers deal).
http://mvn.com/miningthegoldrush/2009/03/breaking-down-the-49ers-draft-history.html

elsid13
04-03-2009, 04:52 PM
Didnt McDaniels start out doing defensive scouting for the Pats?

If I remember correctly it was pro scouting and not that long. I strongly expect that we are going to struggle as the McDick and Flanders are the decision makers due to the lack of experience.

BroncoBuff
04-03-2009, 04:52 PM
Leave it to SI to bust the stupid meter. Maybe they should look at Nolan's record of drafting D in SF?

Maybe, but Patrick Willis was a no-brainer, Slap and I and half of this board - half the football world were all over that.

But Roh, be honest ... deep down inside, don't you wish Goodman was in charge of this draft?

Rohirrim
04-03-2009, 04:53 PM
Where have you gone Jim Goodman?!

That Josh has really cut a wide swath through this organization. I hope the kid knows what he's doing.

Why do you keep making judgments about this coach when you don't know the background on any of his actions? You make it sound like he arbitrarily just walked in and canned everybody. Do you really believe that's what happened?

oubronco
04-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Maybe, but Patrick Willis was a no-brainer, Slap and I and half of this board - half the football world were all over that.

But Roh, be honest ... deep down inside, don't you wish Goodman was in charge of this draft?

I'm not Roh and I say HELL YES !!!

Rohirrim
04-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Maybe, but Patrick Willis was a no-brainer, Slap and I and half of this board - half the football world were all over that.

But Roh, be honest ... deep down inside, don't you wish Goodman was in charge of this draft?

It was a pick between Carriker and Willis. Some might have taken Carriker. As far as Goodman goes, ask me after the draft. ;D

broncofan7
04-03-2009, 04:59 PM
Why do you keep making judgments about this coach when you don't know the background on any of his actions? You make it sound like he arbitrarily just walked in and canned everybody. Do you really believe that's what happened?

He still practically refused to call Cutler by his name--using the same phrase that Parcell's used towards TO, 'The Player' , when referring to Jay. That lends a little light onto this newbies personality....no skins on the wall as a HC and he comes off as incredibly arrogant beacuse he was Billy B's O-coordinator. He'll be the headcoaching equivalent of that douche, QB Jimmy Clausen of ND---all hype and ego--average to below average in production. Book it. 6-10 or 5-11 next year. Feel free to ask me if I want to wager with you on that.......

SonOfLe-loLang
04-03-2009, 05:13 PM
Did you even read it?

He is suggesting that we may not draft well since none of our front office guys have any experience, which is true. Mcdaniels was never involved with scouting or evaluations in New England and Xanders was a cap guy for the Falcons.

Some positions have as high a success rate as 70% when drafted in the 1st round, others are down around 30% with the current hit/miss ratio being about a little better than 1 hit per miss. Of the 2 first rounders we got, odds are that only 1 will become a starter in the long term, and we are down to about 33% chance that the 3rd rounder will be a starter. This is assuming that 2 rookies can draft at the league average, if they go below average we could be looking at Kyle Orton and 3 backups in return for Cutler.

Yes, i read it and the example he brought up was from 20 years ago. If there was one team that ALWAYS got it right, then there might be something there. Mostly, the draft is an educated crapshoot.

Rohirrim
04-03-2009, 05:16 PM
He still practically refused to call Cutler by his name--using the same phrase that Parcell's used towards TO, 'The Player' , when referring to Jay. That lends a little light onto this newbies personality....no skins on the wall as a HC and he comes off as incredibly arrogant beacuse he was Billy B's O-coordinator. He'll be the headcoaching equivalent of that douche, QB Jimmy Clausen of ND---all hype and ego--average to below average in production. Book it. 6-10 or 5-11 next year. Feel free to ask me if I want to wager with you on that.......

Before all this drama happened and I saw the teams on our schedule, I figured we'd go 4 and 12. I had zero faith in Shanahan's ability to fix the D. In fact, I really thought he had become the new Dan Coryell and thought he could win without D. So I accept the idea of 5 or 6 wins. People who think we would have gone to the playoffs if only Cutler stayed here are living in dreamland. After ten years, Shanahan proved he had no idea how to fix a D. Plus, he was keeping Slowik, as he said. It was going to be more of the same. I realize McD is stumbling out of the gate, but I'm not going to judge him until after the draft, after I go to Dove Valley for spring training, after I see some preseason games, and after the season gets going. But I tend to be optimistic. The players seem excited about the changes. I think Nolan is going to really make it happen here. I'm really pumped to see the 3-4 back in Denver. McD seems like a very intense guy. If he can make this team better and we start winning games (like he said in his presser) all the bs goes away.

BroncoMan4ever
04-03-2009, 05:20 PM
if we put together a really good draft and with the picks we got for Jay, if those 3 picks turn into 3 playmakers for us, it might be worth it.

Orton doesn't have the big league arm, but he is 21-12 as a starter and is a really good leader and with a good OL and good receiving weapons, might be better than he is thought to be

Br0nc0Buster
04-03-2009, 06:21 PM
Patrick Willis, Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, and Manny Lawson and he brought in Nate Clements. That's not too shabby. Nolan actually has a pretty good record (other than the Alex Smith/Rodgers deal).
http://mvn.com/miningthegoldrush/2009/03/breaking-down-the-49ers-draft-history.html

Manny Lawson has 5.5 sacks in 3 years
and Vernon Davis was nowhere near worth the 6th overall pick in the draft.

I dont doubt Nolans ability to get a lot out of his linebackers, but his drafts seem to be sketchy at best

Br0nc0Buster
04-03-2009, 06:22 PM
if we put together a really good draft and with the picks we got for Jay, if those 3 picks turn into 3 playmakers for us, it might be worth it.

Orton doesn't have the big league arm, but he is 21-12 as a starter and is a really good leader and with a good OL and good receiving weapons, might be better than he is thought to be

yea these picks will be very important.
We need to get value or we will look stupid

Black96WS6
04-03-2009, 06:32 PM
Like said previously, it's a crapshoot. You're trading a known (or relatively known) quantity for unknown quantity/quality in the picks. All draft picks are crap shots. Another reason rookies shouldn't make the ridiculous salaries the first few first rounders make. Not until they've proven themselves...

Atwater His Ass
04-03-2009, 06:45 PM
Did some retard really just list Vernon Davis as a quality draft pick? Talk about a pegged idiot meter...

gyldenlove
04-03-2009, 07:01 PM
Didnt McDaniels start out doing defensive scouting for the Pats?

This is from the Patriots bio on him:

Upon his arrival in New England prior to the 2001 season, McDaniels served as a personnel assistant and quickly expanded his role to include film breakdown and scouting preparation for the defensive coaching staff. He became a coaching assistant in February of 2002. In that role, his responsibilities included film breakdown and scouting chart preparations for the defensive staff. In 2003, he drew additional responsibilities working with the defensive backs

He hasn't done any evaluation and hasn't been in involved in drafting, he did some scouting preparation. Essentially it is like promoting someone who is good at operating a bulldozer to foreman and expect he will be good at that too.

TheReverend
04-03-2009, 07:13 PM
This article echoes my concern about effective we'll be on draft day, but I still think it was a pretty ****ty article.

Drek
04-03-2009, 07:16 PM
Manny Lawson has 5.5 sacks in 3 years
and Vernon Davis was nowhere near worth the 6th overall pick in the draft.

I dont doubt Nolans ability to get a lot out of his linebackers, but his drafts seem to be sketchy at best

In Lawson's defense, he's been injured more often than not and hasn't really gotten the chance to develop.

Nolan made quite a few mistakes as the sole decision maker in SF, but he also made some pretty good ones at times as well. I wouldn't be a fan of him calling the shots here, but he should provide a valuable source of experience and advice for Xanders and McDaniels to sound off on at least as it pertains to the defense.

Our scouting staff of the last few years is still in place. Jim and Jeff Goodman didn't scout the '08 class, the just handled the data gleaned by the scouts we still have working for us.

And Xanders has now gotten more FO experience than when he last worked with the former Falcons executive quoted in this piece. Also, he might not of actually gone on the road scouting players but he's a former D1A player himself so I'm sure the talent evaluation process isn't a complete unknown to him.

It isn't a horrible, if entirely conjecture and speculation driven, until he gets to the "Belichick coaching tree". Mangini produced two winning seasons in three years with the Jets. Pretty solid for a guy who took over a team that had spent the last few years picking in the top 5 of the draft. Crennel took over a POS Browns team that had committed to a lot of high draft picks who were not very good at all, and by the end of his run actually had gotten a good season out of them. He might have had another and kept his job if a large chunk of his players didn't get hurt last year. Weiss started out strong but has since seen the team slump due to overly difficult schedules and far too little quality talent from the last two years of the Willingham era on the roster. He is looking like a failure, but its still fairly early to write him off.

As for Belichick failing in his first go 'round with the Browns, he improved the team year after year, in their third season they made the playoffs and won a playoff game. Before his fourth season Art Modell announced that he was moving the team and they played out the last season in Cleveland with fans litterally throwing broken seats out at the players. They'd lost that season before it even started thanks to Modell's bull****.

And FYI, while there he planted the seeds for the Browns/Ravens' eventual SB win and their perennially solid defense, not to mention grooming their current top executive, Ozzie Newsome, into the personnel man he is today. The Ravens made out pretty well from Belichick's "flop".

Rabb
04-03-2009, 07:21 PM
we may as well give the picks back, we are just going to **** them up because none of these guys know anything about football, after all, judging bad picks that the past guys made is certainly a fair way to judge these guys

/sarcasm

watermock
04-03-2009, 07:32 PM
we may as well give the picks back, we are just going to **** them up because none of these guys know anything about football, after all, judging bad picks that the past guys made is certainly a fair way to judge these guys

/sarcasm

You sound like a stock broker in reverse.

Fact is, we jst fired the 2 guys that brought us the 06 and 08 drafts, just because we have some of the same guys reporting to Flanders and McDummy, doen't mean crap.

We certainly won't be getting a top 10 pick in 10 from da Bears, and given McDummy's arrogance and insistance that he can make chicken salad out of chickencrap, don't expect us to make a play on Bradford or Colt in '10 anyway.

Rabb
04-03-2009, 07:39 PM
You sound like a stock broker in reverse.

Fact is, we jst fired the 2 guys that brought us the 06 and 08 drafts, just because we have some of the same guys reporting to Flanders and McDummy, doen't mean crap.

We certainly won't be getting a top 10 pick in 10 from da Bears, and given McDummy's arrogance and insistance that he can make chicken salad out of chickencrap, don't expect us to make a play on Bradford or Colt in '10 anyway.

I don't disagree with some of that Mock but why the hate for the regime right now, is it all the Cutler thing?

I just don't see any logic in assuming that they can't get it done in the draft because of the Cutler situation. Is it McDaniels' or Xanders' fault that Bowlen made changes?

Hate them all you want,it sounds to me like Pat was calling a lot of the shots, including and not limited to the eventual trade of Cutler. I am not just singling you out, I enjoy a lot of your posts, but the whole McWhatever thing just makes any argument seem 2nd grade to me.

SureShot
04-03-2009, 07:40 PM
I don't know about the rest of you but the draft will be like this for me.



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j9XfIn613tg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j9XfIn613tg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Rohirrim
04-03-2009, 08:14 PM
Did some retard really just list Vernon Davis as a quality draft pick? Talk about a pegged idiot meter...

Talk about a ****ing moron. The guy's been in the league two years, had a busted fibula for much of one year, plays on a **** offense with a **** QB. Why not pull your head out of your ass, ****head?

GoBroncos DownUnder
04-03-2009, 08:18 PM
Wow, there's some pathetically WILD speculation in here!

AN OPEN QUESTION TO YOU ALL: Has ANYONE else, aside from me, been through the Denver Training facility? And if so, were you shown "THE Draft Room"??
If anyone thinks that McDaniels is directly involved in "evaluating talent", you are a dumb-ass!


There is a method used in Denver, and it largely involves a very wise, LONG term member of the coaching/personnel staff, not the kind of guy you can fire or you'd want to ignore! The process will stay the same, evaluations have already been made.

So, after picking Clady, Royal and Hillis last year, I have NO DOUBT, that this draft will be "solid" to say the least, maybe awesome, but I'll be safe and stick with "solid". ;)
I have NO fear, and am FIRED UP for the '09 draft day, it's a new era!!:sunshine:

watermock
04-03-2009, 08:27 PM
I just don't see any logic in assuming that they can't get it done in the draft because of the Cutler situation. Is it McDaniels' or Xanders' fault that Bowlen made changes?



No. Having an inexperienced GM AND coach is Bowlen's fault. As is firing the Goodmans.


IMO, Bowlen should of hired Spags and told him to keep Bates and get a good RB.

We could of kept the 4-3 and spent 5-8 picks on D, perhaps moving up too.

We would of won the division this (09) year.

TexanBob
04-03-2009, 08:28 PM
I don't know about the rest of you but the draft will be like this for me.



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/j9XfIn613tg&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/j9XfIn613tg&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Hilarious! Hilarious! The host on the show looks like a love child of Bob Saget and Jay Leno.

Rohirrim
04-03-2009, 08:38 PM
I think before all the chicken littles go running off the cliff because (OMG!) the Goodman's are gone and we are lost without the Goodman's! they should go visit this site: http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=96

It turns out the only two people who left were the Goodman's. The entire scouting staff is still intact. Click on their names and read their bios. They are the same people who have been here for many, many years. One guy 27 years. The coordinator, Chris Trulove, 15 years.

Now, doesn't that feel better?

tonngo0
04-03-2009, 09:08 PM
I blame all of this on Bowlen. Oh well, wait till the next coach before the Broncos get any better. I guess now I have more time to do other things.

SureShot
04-03-2009, 09:09 PM
I blame all of this on Bowlen. Oh well, wait till the next coach before the Broncos get any better. I guess now I have more time to do other things.

I smell Trufan in the air.

BroncoBuff
04-03-2009, 09:11 PM
if if those 3 picks turn into 3 playmakers for us...

Good luck with that, Jarvis :nono:
,

footstepsfrom#27
04-03-2009, 09:15 PM
Wow, what a load of bull**** that entire article is.
It was the truth, which I know hurts to hear.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-03-2009, 09:16 PM
It was the truth, which I know hurts to hear.

Uh, no. If the NFL draft has proven to be anything, its that its a bit of a crapshoot.

watermock
04-03-2009, 09:21 PM
Uh, no. If the NFL draft has proven to be anything, its that its a bit of a crapshoot.

Which probably makes Cutler, drinking and beetus aside, the most valuable of all out of the last 3 drafts.

Name me one player outside of Mario that would even be considered.

footstepsfrom#27
04-03-2009, 09:22 PM
Uh, no. If the NFL draft has proven to be anything, its that its a bit of a crapshoot.
No kidding...that's his point. We traded a known commodity, a guy most compare to a young Brett Favre...for a crapshoot. On top of that, our draft's final decisions will be made by people who have never done that before. The Goodman's at least proved they knew what they were doing...now they're gone. Dickerson brought 8 players and that trade sucked for them. Yet this is a great deal huh?

Whatever...even if we hit 2 future pro bowlers with these picks it's still a one sided deal.

SonOfLe-loLang
04-03-2009, 09:24 PM
No kidding...that's his point. We traded a known commodity, a guy most compare to a young Brett Favre...for a crapshoot. On top of that, our draft's final decisions will be made by people who have never done that before. The Goodman's at least proved they knew what they were doing...now they're gone. Dickerson brought 8 players and that trade sucked for them. Yet this is a great deal huh?

Whatever...even if we hit 2 future pro bowlers with these picks it's still a one sided deal.

If we are 11-5 by 2010, then its a great deal. I think you guys might be overrating JC a bit.

Rohirrim
04-03-2009, 09:24 PM
Whatever...even if we hit 2 future pro bowlers with these picks it's still a one sided deal.

Huh?

BroncoBuff
04-03-2009, 10:06 PM
Why do you keep making judgments about this coach when you don't know the background on any of his actions? You make it sound like he arbitrarily just walked in and canned everybody. Do you really believe that's what happened?

Well, obviously no ... he obviously had zilch to do with Shanahan's firing, though his presence is part of the "swath" I was referring to.

I think Josh's fingerprints are all over the Goodman thing ... Josh is clearly the guy in charge. Any sliver of a whisper of doubt on that point evaporated when Bowlen talked about Josh only in his letter to the fans - he explained JOSH'S actions and philosophy. Bowlen barely mentioned Xanders, and when he did, it was only as an add-on to Josh. So I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG about Josh being fully in charge here. Bowlen's letter is like DNA evidence in court, there's just no way around it.

That's not necessarily a BAD thing, though .... maybe Josh will draft better than Goodman .... maybe Orton will excel ... and maybe we'll haul in two Pro-Bowl defensive guys with the Bears' picks. But the odds are greatly against any of those eventualities ... the reality is that Josh is just a kid, and has no experience making draft picks. And a good one-third to half of EVEN FIRST-ROUND PICKS underachieve or flat-out bust. These are just realities.

Cutler was a bird in the hand. A beautiful bird. Now we've got two in the bush.

ZONA
04-03-2009, 10:21 PM
First off, experience is no guarantee you will make the right calls in the draft. Looking over Shanny's track record, that proves the point right there. His last few have been good but for a very long time they have been nothing short of poor. So you can throw "experience" right out the window. Some of it is going to be luck and some of it is going to be coaching once the players you picked are on the team. And then a small portion of it is how well did you evaluate the player. I think McD has just as good a chance to make a good draft and anybody else.

BroncoBuff
04-03-2009, 10:25 PM
First off, experience is no guarantee you will make the right calls in the draft. Looking over Shanny's track record, that proves the point right there. His last few have been good but for a very long time they have been nothing short of poor. So you can throw "experience" right out the window. Some of it is going to be luck and some of it is going to be coaching once the players you picked are on the team. And then a small portion of it is how well did you evaluate the player. I think McD has just as good a chance to make a good draft and anybody else.

Good point about Shanahan (on defense especially).

And I suppose you're right, Josh hasn't actually MADE the picks, but he has definitely scouted a heckuva lot.

I hope against hope he does well ... but "well" as compared to Jim Goodman, I'm not holding my breath.

Drek
04-04-2009, 03:54 AM
Good point about Shanahan (on defense especially).

And I suppose you're right, Josh hasn't actually MADE the picks, but he has definitely scouted a heckuva lot.

I hope against hope he does well ... but "well" as compared to Jim Goodman, I'm not holding my breath.

Why?

He's got all the same scouts and scouting coordinators still in place, so he'll be getting the same information that Goodman has been getting.

He's got an experienced coordinator who was fully in charge of calling the shots in Nolan to give him advice along the way.

And he's got an owner who is taking a much more active role in the franchise now than he did the last decade, who saw some success back when running this team was a partnership between himself and Shanahan.

Xanders is great for the role he's been given, sounding board for Josh, the buck stops here guy on team financials, and capologist. He's also got some high level playing and coaching experience so he isn't completely in the dark as to how talent is evaluated in this league.

I'd be interested to know how much McDaniels was in the room when Pioli and Belichick were making decisions in Foxborough as well. Its been a pretty common story out of New England the last few years that Belichick had taken McDaniels under his wing much more so than Mangini, Crennel, or Weis. He obviously wouldn't have gotten to call the shots but I wouldn't be surprised if he was in the war room the last few years, seeing how decisions were made on draft day.

in short, I don't think this is going to be the blind leading the blind like many (including the author of the article) are suggesting in this thread.

watermock
04-04-2009, 03:59 AM
You do know that your opinion is made up of total conjecture, right?

This the best you can come up with?

He's got an experienced coordinator who was fully in charge of calling the shots in Nolan to give him advice along the way.

WRONG.

So now Nolan is callingf the shots, right? or Mcdmmy, or X-man, or bowlen?

GoBroncos DownUnder
04-04-2009, 10:28 AM
Why?

He's got all the same scouts and scouting coordinators still in place, so he'll be getting the same information that Goodman has been getting.

He's got an experienced coordinator who was fully in charge of calling the shots in Nolan to give him advice along the way.

And he's got an owner who is taking a much more active role in the franchise now than he did the last decade, who saw some success back when running this team was a partnership between himself and Shanahan.

Xanders is great for the role he's been given, sounding board for Josh, the buck stops here guy on team financials, and capologist. He's also got some high level playing and coaching experience so he isn't completely in the dark as to how talent is evaluated in this league.

I'd be interested to know how much McDaniels was in the room when Pioli and Belichick were making decisions in Foxborough as well. Its been a pretty common story out of New England the last few years that Belichick had taken McDaniels under his wing much more so than Mangini, Crennel, or Weis. He obviously wouldn't have gotten to call the shots but I wouldn't be surprised if he was in the war room the last few years, seeing how decisions were made on draft day.

in short, I don't think this is going to be the blind leading the blind like many (including the author of the article) are suggesting in this thread.
No point wasting my time posting here, I'l just agree with people like Drek, who have it right! :thumbsup:

Kaylore
04-04-2009, 10:42 AM
This article echoes my concern about effective we'll be on draft day, but I still think it was a pretty ****ty article.
That's where I'm at. The article was stupid. The success of other people doesn't mean anything about the circumstances or success of our people. If we suck on draft day, it won't be because the Rams sucked 20 years ago too. You could point to the Walker trade for the Cowboys when they reset the franchise, won one game, people called for Johnson's head, and then they went on to win 3 super bowls in something of a mini-dynasty.

Losing Jim Goodman is a loss no matter how you slice it. Even if Xanders and McDaniels together end up being brilliant, Jim Goodman would only have made them better. If they are completely clueless (also unlikely) we'll really miss Goodman.

I've said before I don't expect much out of this draft. I do trust the coaching staff to develop any defensive talent we do have for the first time, though. I'll wait and see what they do. I'm just hoping they take a cautious strategy. One thing that they are at least saying right is that they're going to find guys that fit what they need them to do and make them do that specific thing. That actually makes it much easier to draft and it also helps put your picks in positions where they're most likely to succeed.

And don't rule out past picks like Moss, Dumervil, Crowder, Thomas and others. With Nolan and company we have the best coordinator we've had since Coyer and they actually have a chance to learn from someone who knows what they're talking about.

baja
04-04-2009, 01:01 PM
And don't rule out past picks like Moss, Dumervil, Crowder, Thomas and others. With Nolan and company we have the best coordinator we've had since Coyer and they actually have a chance to learn from someone who knows what they're talking about.

plus they will be used differently.

colonelbeef
04-04-2009, 02:20 PM
"My issue with Denver is that only four of the 50 selections it made from 2000 to 2005 are still on the team."

1. Still being on the team and still being in the league are two huge distinctions. Just because some don't play in Denver anymore doesn't make them any less of players.

2. this moron give Denver only "passing grades" for the two best drafts in their years taken (06 and 08)?!?!!?!??!!?

CoMoChief
04-04-2009, 03:19 PM
LOL this trade is going to explode right in front of your faces and implode the city of Denver. Good god.

Isn't great to know that the Chiefs caused this all???? Frickin hilarious.

Bronx33
04-04-2009, 03:22 PM
LOL this trade is going to explode right in front of your faces and implode the city of Denver. Good god.

Isn't great to know that the Chiefs caused this all???? Frickin hilarious.


Sadly nobody has ever cared for your thoughts and today is no different now run along little cheapy you got your own problems to deal with.

Jekyll15Hyde
04-04-2009, 03:47 PM
Yes, i read it and the example he brought up was from 20 years ago. If there was one team that ALWAYS got it right, then there might be something there. Mostly, the draft is an educated crapshoot.

Your missing the half of the point. The draft IS an educated crapshoot and we have every reason to be skeptical about McF***stick and the Colonel. The only thing we know about their player personnel abilities is that they were fine with a straight across trade for Cassell.

That doesnt mean that they will draft horrible, but at this stage, why do we have any reason to be optimistic? The Nolan factor gives me some solace, but as was previously stated, I would feel a hell of a lot better with Goodman(s) still there.

Doggcow
04-04-2009, 04:01 PM
If draft picks are a gamble, like flipping a coin, why does it matter WHO flips the coin?

Pretty sure I dont have a better chance to win the Lotto if a guy who already won the lotto picks the numbers for me.

Jekyll15Hyde
04-04-2009, 04:04 PM
If draft picks are a gamble, like flipping a coin, why does it matter WHO flips the coin?

Pretty sure I dont have a better chance to win the Lotto if a guy who already won the lotto picks the numbers for me.

Crapshoot and educated crapshoot are two different things. I am bothered by what we know about the decision making ability of McF***stick.

GoBroncos DownUnder
04-04-2009, 04:14 PM
Crapshoot and educated crapshoot are two different things. I am bothered by what we know about the decision making ability of Mc****stick.
WHY should any of us FANS be informed about such things? It's a billion dollar franchise, they don't need to explain their operations/plans to all the fans.

Paladin
04-04-2009, 04:23 PM
No. Having an inexperienced GM AND coach is Bowlen's fault. As is firing the Goodmans.


IMO, Bowlen should of hired Spags and told him to keep Bates and get a good RB.

We could of kept the 4-3 and spent 5-8 picks on D, perhaps moving up too.

We would of won the division this (09) year.

Mock, that's bull crap. Goodmans were not fired. Jeff did not get promoted, and he left, Jim didn't think his boy got a good deal, so he quit. Revisonist history looks good on paper, but it sure is otherwise stupid.

Spags has torn the Rams' rfranchise apart, too. Go over to Rams' boards and see for yourself. Spags would have done nearly the same thing, and Bus would have used the change in the regime to buck for a new deal for his Baby Boy, and the whole thing would have been just as public as it was.

Mock, your cute snioping at McD and the events around hoim are getting old. Try and mature a bit now, um-kay?

Just as a reminder. there were a number of people ariound here who were hanging breathlessly fro VDs jock, Mock being quite prominent.

elsid13
04-04-2009, 04:35 PM
If we are 11-5 by 2010, then its a great deal. I think you guys might be overrating JC a bit.

Less then a month ago people on this board were arguing that Cutler was the best young QB in the league. He gone, but he is still very talented player that has potential to be special. In fact Nnamdi Asomugha, just called him the best QB in the AFCW, which was why Asomugha surprised Cutler was traded.

barryr
04-04-2009, 05:24 PM
The Broncos need to use their picks and the ones from the Bears wisely obviously to benefit from this trade and unlike the last 3 years especially, actually get players who make plays on defense for a change.