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View Full Version : Who is more important to the Denver Broncos and why.....


baja
03-28-2009, 04:04 PM
Jay Cutler or Josh McDaniels

SouthStndJunkie
03-28-2009, 04:09 PM
Jay Cutler, he's a true franchise QB and good HCs are a dime a dozen.

We don't even know if he is a good head coach at this point.

SouthStndJunkie
03-28-2009, 04:10 PM
baja....the bear (this story) sleeps for a few days and you just have to poke it with a stick.

Kaylore
03-28-2009, 04:11 PM
Coach/GM - It's his vision. His plan. He's the general. If someone's insubordinate, they need to go and buy in. Great players often don't win championships because the coach and/or GM can't get a good enough team around them to win. Teams have also won championships without (insert marquee player at marquee position) on their team. It comes to good coaches and good managers building a good team that works as a unit.

And I'm not saying McDaniels is awesome, but I'm also not saying he sucks. I'm just saying the team's success rides on him having his crap together more than other positions.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 04:13 PM
Obviously, Jay Cutler.

He brings more value. He's simply worth alot more. He's a young, elite QB that many respected analysts believe is the best young QB in the game (Jaws, Mayock, Martz etc.) and at worst, is simply among the best young QBs in the game. He's got terrific physical tools, he's shown he can come back from deficits and can put the team on his back. It's been conclusively shown that when he has even an average defense, he leads the team to a whole lot more wins than losses. He's just a special talent. He's got tremendous arm strength, very good accuracy, excellent velocity and can elude pressure and make something out of nothing.

Without Jay Cutler, we would have gone 3-13 last year. We've seen a number of folks (Kirwan et al) say that at the very least he's worth two first round picks. Do you think anyone would give up 2 first rounders for our "coach" (if trading picks for coaches were still allowed)?

Jay Cutler has proven time and time again that he's a stud. He's wild at times and is overaggressive, perhaps too confident in his ability to throw a ball through a carwash without getting it wet and that sometimes leads to mistakes, but he's a stud in any event. What has Josh McDaniels accomplished as Head Coach of this team? Has he won any Super Bowls for us? Has he won any games for us? He was given more offensive talent than the Patriots had in their prior Super Bowl wins and all he could muster was a few points in the Super Bowl as a coordinator. He's proven that he can botch even the slightest of crises.

It's not even close. He hasn't shown that he has any value to us, yet. What value does he have? When he leads us to successful outcomes on the backs of players other than those he inherited, then he will demonstrate his value.
As of right now, he has no value. It is not a difficult question.

razorwire77
03-28-2009, 04:15 PM
Coach/GM - It's his vision. His plan. He's the general. If someone's insubordinate, they need to go and buy in. Great players often don't win championships because the coach and/or GM can't get a good enough team around them to win. Teams have also won championships without (insert marquee player at marquee position) on their team. It comes to good coaches and good managers building a good team that works as a unit.

And I'm not saying McDaniels is awesome, but I'm also not saying he sucks. I'm just saying the team's success rides on him having his crap together more than other positions.

Rep. Couldn't have said it better myself, and that's why I voted McDaniels. We don't know what he'll be as a coach, but if he's sucks we're doomed with or without a franchise QB, if he's young and dynamic we could win without one.

Kaylore
03-28-2009, 04:16 PM
Jay Cutler, he's a true franchise QB and good HCs are a dime a dozen.

We don't even know if he is a good head coach at this point.

Dan Marino and John Elway were superior players to Joe Montana, but Montana had an all-world coach that built a system around his strengths and made him one of the most successful quarterbacks in NFL history. Tom Brady and both Mannings aren't half as athletic as some of the quarterbacks out there, including our own, but they have general managers and coaches who know how to build a team.

Most importantly, neither of those guys gets in the way of management trying to dictate how their front office should run. In fact none of the greats ever do anything but suck it up when they disagree with management. They usually just go to work to try and show them how "wrong" they are. Our QB is throwing a tantrum, demanding a trade, and shunning his responsibilities as team leader because he's worrying about how someone else is doing their job - a job he has nothing to do with.

GreatBronco16
03-28-2009, 04:19 PM
Well I guess Jay is more important. I mean, Shanny got canned, and he was told that it was his job until he didn't want it anymore.

AbileneBroncoFan
03-28-2009, 04:21 PM
Remind me how many yards, first downs, and touchdowns Josh McDaniels has scored in his illustrious NFL career. Oh. Zero. That's right. Doesn't matter how good the scheme is if Chris Simms is running it you're ****ed.

oubronco
03-28-2009, 04:22 PM
McDiggit can't throw passes so I'll say Cutler

oubronco
03-28-2009, 04:22 PM
Remind me how many yards, first downs, and touchdowns Josh McDaniels has scored in his illustrious NFL career. Oh. Zero. That's right. Doesn't matter how good the scheme is if Chris Simms is running it you're ****ed.

Oh I couldn't have said it better :notworthy

Kaylore
03-28-2009, 04:23 PM
You guys are hilarious. If our coach sucks it doesn't matter how good Jay Cutler is. By the same token, good coaches can make average QB's (Eli Manning) win super bowls.

GreatBronco16
03-28-2009, 04:23 PM
McDiggit can't throw passes so I'll say Cutler

And Jay Cutler can't draw up a gameplan and make all the calls, including reading the defense.

GreatBronco16
03-28-2009, 04:25 PM
Remind me how many yards, first downs, and touchdowns Josh McDaniels has scored in his illustrious NFL career. Oh. Zero. That's right. Doesn't matter how good the scheme is if Chris Simms is running it you're ****ed.

Hmm, Tom Brady gets injured in first game, insert complete unknown Matt Cassel. NE fans think their team is doomed, but he seemed to run the offense pretty good.

Granted Chris Simms is no Matt Cassel.:~ohyah!:

Hercules Rockefeller
03-28-2009, 04:25 PM
McDaniels.

The arguments for Cutler in this thread are the exact reasons why he's not more important than the head coach. Jay's petulent act since this thing broke reinforces the argument that the inmates do not run the asylum. No one individual player is greater than this team, nor should any player himself be able to claim that he's so important his name should never be discussed with regards to trades. Because of this, McDaniels wins by default.

And picks can still be traded for coaches, it was never removed. Tags only made it so that the Leauge would have to approve any such transaction, thus basically killing the process.

Doggcow
03-28-2009, 04:26 PM
And Jay Cutler can't draw up a gameplan and make all the calls, including reading the defense.

I could see him become the type of playcaller Manning is if he chooses to.

Atlas
03-28-2009, 04:28 PM
Coach/GM - It's his vision. His plan. He's the general. If someone's insubordinate, they need to go and buy in. Great players often don't win championships because the coach and/or GM can't get a good enough team around them to win. Teams have also won championships without (insert marquee player at marquee position) on their team. It comes to good coaches and good managers building a good team that works as a unit.

And I'm not saying McDaniels is awesome, but I'm also not saying he sucks. I'm just saying the team's success rides on him having his crap together more than other positions.

That's not really what the poll is about. How many coaches are around that could coach the Broncos successfully? How many QBs are there. Cutler at least has proven to be a very promising 25 year-old Pro Bowl QB. McDaniel's hasn't done anything. He went to a three time Superbowl Championship dynasty and they haven't won anything since. Plus all the other coaches that have left N.E. have been colossal flops.

I'll take Cutler. As of course everyone knows by now. In fact I'll also take Shanahan, Raheem, Ryan or Spagnola over McCheese while were at it.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 04:29 PM
. No one individual player is greater than this team, .

McDaniels does not represent the team. He's nothing more than another individual. He too, is not more important than the team.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-28-2009, 04:32 PM
McDaniels does not represent the team. He's nothing more than another individual. He too, is not more important than the team.

McDaniels is not a player, so your analogy falls flat. Jay is an inmate, Josh is the warden. Jay may become what we all hope he can be, but he is not there yet. He does not dictate anything with regards to this team, nor should he. McDaniels OTOH is the one who sets everything, whether the fans agree or not that he should be in that position or if they agree or not with his decisions, Josh is the one who is in charge.

Dedhed
03-28-2009, 04:34 PM
There have been far more systems that have carried players to titles than individual players who have done likewise.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 04:36 PM
McDaniels is not a player, so your analogy falls flat. Jay is an inmate, Josh is the warden. Jay may become what we all hope he can be, but he is not there yet. He does not dictate anything with regards to this team, nor should he. McDaniels OTOH is the one who sets everything, whether the fans disagree or not that he should be in that position or if they agree with his decisions, Josh is the one who is in charge.

McDaniels might be in charge, but he does not represent the team. His views and his actions regarding what he believes is in the best interest of the team are not necessarily what is in the best interest of the team. He's just another individual...except with more power to use and/or abuse.

barryr
03-28-2009, 04:36 PM
I'd like Cutler to be the QB of this team, but this lovefest some have for him is beyond the pale. I can only imagine what it would be like if the guy had a winning record as QB and had led the team to the playoffs at least once.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-28-2009, 04:39 PM
McDaniels might be in charge, but he does not represent the team. His views and his actions regarding what he believes is in the best interest of the team are not necessarily what is in the best interest of the team. He's just another individual...except with more power to use and/or abuse.

He's in charge, so by definition he makes the moves that are in the best interest of this team, despite the tin-foil hat theory of some on this board (not you) that he's trying to **** this team over. Just because you don't agree with his decision to consider trading Jay does not mean that he's not acting in the best interest of this franchise. Just like there are 53 players who need to perform in order to remain on the roster, JM has to perform in order to keep his job. To say that he would willfully make decisions to hurt this team, and therefore his ability for current and future employment, is completely illogical.

Dedhed
03-28-2009, 04:41 PM
McDaniels might be in charge, but he does not represent the team. His views and his actions regarding what he believes is in the best interest of the team are not necessarily what is in the best interest of the team. He's just another individual...except with more power to use and/or abuse.

That makes no sense. 'Best interest' is a matter of perspective, and if you're calling the shots, you represent the team.

That's like saying the President doesn't represent the USA because there are people who disagree with him. Silly.

Rabb
03-28-2009, 04:41 PM
Remind me how many yards, first downs, and touchdowns Josh McDaniels has scored in his illustrious NFL career. Oh. Zero. That's right. Doesn't matter how good the scheme is if Chris Simms is running it you're ****ed.

this might be the most ignorant post I have read yet during this whole debacle

how many yards, first downs, and touchdowns did Shanny score or gained himself?

if I remember right, New England had a pretty damn good offense with or without Brady

seriously, you people are amazing

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 04:41 PM
He's in charge, so by definition he makes the moves that are in the best interest of this team,.

Brilliant reasoning.

http://www.davesfootballblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/matt-millen-is-6-2.jpg


That he's in charge is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the question of what's in the best interest of the team. He has a VIEW of what it is, and he will act on that basis, but that does not mean that the actual best interest is whatever he thinks it is. Merely because he has the power to do something does not always mean that that thing is best.

Blueflame
03-28-2009, 04:41 PM
Cutler. And it isn't even close.

Dedhed
03-28-2009, 04:44 PM
If he's trying to win games then he's working in the best interest of the team.

GreatBronco16
03-28-2009, 04:45 PM
Cutler. And it isn't even close.

No, ofcourse it isn't.::)

Punisher
03-28-2009, 04:46 PM
Where fl_lcked

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 04:47 PM
No, ofcourse it isn't.::)

She's right. It isn't even close. He hasn't accomplished anything therefore he has no value, currently. When he accomplishes something......strike that, when he accomplishes something on the backs of men other than those he inherited, he will have some level of value, it could be a little bit, or it could be alot more depending on how much he accomplishes and which players are propelling the accomplishment.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-28-2009, 04:47 PM
Brilliant reasoning.

http://www.davesfootballblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/matt-millen-is-6-2.jpg


That he's in charge is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the question of what's in the best interest of the team. He has a VIEW of what it is, and he will act on that basis, but that does not mean that the actual best interest is whatever he thinks it is. Merely because he has the power to do something does not always mean that that thing is best.

You just proved my point SoCal. Did Millen make poor decisions? Absolutely, that's why he's no longer employed. Do you actually think he was making the decisions he made in order to get fired and screw over the Lions? Time to put on the tinfoil hat if you actually believe that. You probably need to stop with the MMQB too. Simply because something doesn't work out in the end does not mean that it was entered into with the expectation that it will fail.

You think it would be a mistake to trade Jay, so therefore anyone who actually thinks differently must be making decisions that aren't in the best interest of this team. That's brilliant reasonsing on your part.

elsid13
03-28-2009, 04:50 PM
Coach/GM - It's his vision. His plan. He's the general. If someone's insubordinate, they need to go and buy in. Great players often don't win championships because the coach and/or GM can't get a good enough team around them to win. Teams have also won championships without (insert marquee player at marquee position) on their team. It comes to good coaches and good managers building a good team that works as a unit.

And I'm not saying McDaniels is awesome, but I'm also not saying he sucks. I'm just saying the team's success rides on him having his crap together more than other positions.

Plans are great, but if you don't have the execution on the field they don't mean anything. Talent on the field is more important then coaching.

Beside who many coach jerseys does the NFL sell?

NFLBRONCO
03-28-2009, 04:50 PM
I'd go with HC over Cutler this is why. I know McD hasn't proven squat and might not ever I understand that part. His ability to build a team is his biggest hurdle imo.

My point is even having a Franchise QB if you can't teach or build team or have an eye for talent in your FO your screwed even with Jay. Jay can't yet carry a team with a bad D no matter how talented he is.

Even as high standards as Shanny gets here he bombed more often then not in lots of areas. He could not build a D to save his soul. If he could he'd still be our coach.

Kaylore
03-28-2009, 04:53 PM
She's right. It isn't even close. He hasn't accomplished anything therefore he has no value, currently.

BS. He has a lot of value. He might make or break this team. Cutler on the other hand could play his ass off and we'd still fail, or he could get traded and we could still win a Super Bowl. The bottom line is McDaniels has more sway over how this team does than Cutler and he therefore has (for better or worse) more value.

colonelbeef
03-28-2009, 04:55 PM
Dan Marino and John Elway were superior players to Joe Montana, but Montana had an all-world coach that built a system around his strengths and made him one of the most successful quarterbacks in NFL history. Tom Brady and both Mannings aren't half as athletic as some of the quarterbacks out there, including our own, but they have general managers and coaches who know how to build a team.

Most importantly, neither of those guys gets in the way of management trying to dictate how their front office should run. In fact none of the greats ever do anything but suck it up when they disagree with management. They usually just go to work to try and show them how "wrong" they are. Our QB is throwing a tantrum, demanding a trade, and shunning his responsibilities as team leader because he's worrying about how someone else is doing their job - a job he has nothing to do with.



this argument can go both ways. Who was more important to the Broncos, Mike Shanahan or John Elway?

I vote for Cutler although I do not like the wording of the poll. A) we do not know what McDaniels is whatsoever and b) truly good coaches are not necessarily a dime a dozen.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 04:56 PM
BS. He has a lot of value. He might make or break this team. Cutler on the other hand could play his ass off and we'd still fail, or he could get traded and we could still win a Super Bowl. The bottom line is McDaniels has more sway over how this team does than Cutler and he therefore has (for better or worse) more value.

He has no value because he hasn't accomplished anything. When he accomplishes things without Cutler, Clady, Marshall, Kuper, Scheffler or Harris, then he'll prove value.

Just because the coach could make or break the team doesn't mean he has "value" in the sense that he's a precious asset. Every coach in the league, depending on his actions could make or break the team, but that doesn't necessarily mean that every coach in the league is a precious asset. Rich Kotite, via the power of his office as Head Coach, had the power to make or break his teams, but no one would say he was valuable in the sense that he was a precious asset (whereas not only is Belichick powerful, but he's also a very precious asset to the Patriots). Don't confuse power with value.

TheDave
03-28-2009, 04:57 PM
Until Josh proves something how can anyone say he has any value? Right now we have no idea if he is Vince Lombardi or rich kotite. Folks saying McDaniels is more valuable to this team than Cutler are putting the cart before the horse.

Right now, we simply do not know enough about McDaniels to know his worth.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 05:00 PM
Until Josh proves something how can anyone say he has any value? Right now we have no idea if he is Vince Lombardi or rich kotite. Folks saying McDaniels is more valuable to this team than Cutler are putting the cart before the horse.

Right now, we simply do not know enough about McDaniels to know his worth.

And it will be difficult to assess his value if he's successful on the backs of the men he's inherited on offense. Obviously, if we're winning because of a kickass defense, he will have shown he has tremendous value. But if we're winning primarily on the basis of certain individuals on offense, that we're winning will not necessarily mean that McDaniels has alot of value.

Bronx33
03-28-2009, 05:01 PM
Until Josh proves something how can anyone say he has any value? Right now we have no idea if he is Vince Lombardi or rich kotite. Folks saying McDaniels is more valuable to this team than Cutler are putting the cart before the horse.

Right now, we simply do not know enough about McDaniels to know his worth.



Totally agree that's why i was really having a problem posting on here i know i voted for the coach but i got to thinking i was a bit premature and if you think about it jay is fairly unproven as a QB. ( ONLY TIME WILL TELL)

Blueflame
03-28-2009, 05:01 PM
BS. He has a lot of value. He might make or break this team. Cutler on the other hand could play his ass off and we'd still fail, or he could get traded and we could still win a Super Bowl. The bottom line is McDaniels has more sway over how this team does than Cutler and he therefore has (for better or worse) more value.

Which means he has potential value; not real value.

baja
03-28-2009, 05:04 PM
Brilliant reasoning.

http://www.doney.net/aroundaz/celebrity/richardmnixon.jpg


That he's in charge is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to the question of what's in the best interest of the team. He has a VIEW of what it is, and he will act on that basis, but that does not mean that the actual best interest is whatever he thinks it is. Merely because he has the power to do something does not always mean that that thing is best.

I agree.

GreatBronco16
03-28-2009, 05:05 PM
Which means he has potential value; not real value.

Same can be said about Cutler. He has potential, but hasn't 'really' proved anything.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 05:05 PM
Same can be said about Cutler. He has potential, but hasn't 'really' proved anything.

Sure he has. He's responsible for himself ONLY. And he has acquitted HIMSELF very well, on the whole.

Popps
03-28-2009, 05:06 PM
McDaniels might be in charge, but he does not represent the team. .

Says who?

His views and his actions regarding what he believes is in the best interest of the team are not necessarily what is in the best interest of the team..

So, you're saying he might do good things and he might do bad things. Still, he's the single biggest determining factor of our overall success.

He's just another individual...except with more power to use and/or abuse.

And more influence, so his importance can't be understated.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 05:07 PM
And more influence, so his importance can't be understated.

Again...like I said to Khan, don't confuse power with value. Every single coach in the league has power (to differing degrees), but that does not mean that every single coach in the league is very valuable. Rich Kotite had the power to affect his team's success one way or another, but no one would say that he was valuable.

TheDave
03-28-2009, 05:08 PM
And it will be difficult to assess his value if he's successful on the backs of the men he's inherited on offense. Obviously, if we're winning because of a kickass defense, he will have shown he has tremendous value. But if we're winning primarily on the basis of certain individuals on offense, that we're winning will not necessarily mean that McDaniels has alot of value.

Very true, in the same sense if our offense is suddenly tansforms into a 30 pt per game O, then I'm willing to give him some of the credit for that. Were all pretty savy football fans here... We'll be able to tell if it's him or just the talent.

elsid13
03-28-2009, 05:08 PM
Again...like I said to Khan, don't confuse power with value. Every single coach in the league has power (to differing degrees), but that does not mean that every single coach in the league is very valuable. Rich Kotite had the power to affect his team's success one way or another, but no one would say that he was valuable.

Rep

frerottenextelway
03-28-2009, 05:08 PM
If they were both released on the open market today, one would have people fighting for his services, the other would not. That tells you all you need to know about who has more value.

eddie mac
03-28-2009, 05:10 PM
You have to look at this from many different perspectives not just who has the most value to the franchise.

1. If Bowlen chose a player over a HC even before that said HC had managed one Denver Bronco game how would that look in the eyes of the rest of the NFL and in particular to the next perspective HC of the Denver Broncos? Who in the hell would want to work for an owner who chooses players over his coaching staff??? Or indeed let's a HC go before he's played one football game.

2. Denver would be fair game to every single player on the roster who ever has a grievance. Bowlen/Xanders would be inundated with extended contract requests and potential hold-outs.

3. The franchise and Bowlen in particular would be seen as a laughing stock throughout the NFL. This situation has already become an embarassment but what we've witnessed from various recent NFL analyist opinion is that Cutler is in the wrong here and needs to grow up and get back in the fold.

4. Regardless of the initial reasons for the divide, McDaniels has made it quite clear in recent weeks that Cutler is our QB. If Jay C continues to stay away it makes it pretty clear he no longer wishes to play for this franchise so why hold on to a player who does not want to play here regardless of his value???

5. Most importantly Bowlen has already stated that he's 100% behind his HC and he is pretty angry with Cutler's stance in all this, so him choosing Cutler over McDaniels will never happen anyway and he is completely right.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 05:11 PM
Very true, in the same sense if our offense is suddenly tansforms into a 30 pt per game O, then I'm willing to give him some of the credit for that. Were all pretty savy football fans here... We'll be able to tell if it's him or just the talent.

Certainly, if they become a 30 pt per game O, then he'll deserve some credit, but there will still be the question of how much credit to apportion to the natural and expected progression of great young players into great veteran players.

Blueflame
03-28-2009, 05:11 PM
Again...like I said to Khan, don't confuse power with value. Every single coach in the league has power (to differing degrees), but that does not mean that every single coach in the league is very valuable. Rich Kotite had the power to affect his team's success one way or another, but no one would say that he was valuable.

By the "power = value" reasoning, then Norv Turner is incredibly valuable to the Bolts... he gets credit for their string of playoff appearances; not their key players.

Bronx33
03-28-2009, 05:12 PM
You have to look at this from many different perspectives not just who has the most value to the franchise.

1. If Bowlen chose a player over a HC even before that said HC had managed one Denver Bronco game how would that look in the eyes of the rest of the NFL and in particular to the next perspective HC of the Denver Broncos? Who in the hell would want to work for an owner who chooses players over his coaching staff??? Or indeed let's a HC go before he's played one football game.

2. Denver would be fair game to every single player on the roster who ever has a grievance. Bowlen/Xanders would be inundated with extended contract requests and potential hold-outs.

3. The franchise and Bowlen in particular would be seen as a laughing stock throughout the NFL. This situation has already become an embarassment but what we've witnessed from various recent NFL analyist opinion is that Cutler is in the wrong here and needs to grow up and get back in the fold.

4. Regardless of the initial reasons for the divide, McDaniels has made it quite clear in recent weeks that Cutler is our QB. If Jay C continues to stay away it makes it pretty clear he no longer wishes to play for this franchise so why hold on to a player who does not want to play here regardless of his value???

5. Most importantly Bowlen has already stated that he's 100% behind his HC and he is pretty angry with Cutler's stance in all this, so him choosing Cutler over McDaniels will never happen anyway and he is completely right.

Great post EM all valid points some don't take into concideration.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 05:20 PM
You have to look at this from many different perspectives not just who has the most value to the franchise.

1. If Bowlen chose a player over a HC even before that said HC had managed one Denver Bronco game how would that look in the eyes of the rest of the NFL and in particular to the next perspective HC of the Denver Broncos? Who in the hell would want to work for an owner who chooses players over his coaching staff??? Or indeed let's a HC go before he's played one football game.

Why do we care what other people think? If this happened, quite frankly, I think some people would admire Bowlen for being willing to admit a mistake rather than let it destroy the team merely so that he didnt look bad. People would still want to work here because they'd be paid well, things would be run first class. I think they're smart enough to know that if this happened, it wasnt because the owner was nuts, but rather because it became obvious that the last choice was bad and needed to be remedied.

2. Denver would be fair game to every single player on the roster who ever has a grievance. Bowlen/Xanders would be inundated with extended contract requests and potential hold-outs.

No, they wouldn't. The only time they would get in a jam is if they screwed up a situation with an extremely valuable player. If Boss Bailey then demanded a new contract just out of the blue, do you think the team would be forced to give it to him? It all depends on the facts and circumstances.

3. The franchise and Bowlen in particular would be seen as a laughing stock throughout the NFL. This situation has already become an embarassment but what we've witnessed from various recent NFL analyist opinion is that Cutler is in the wrong here and needs to grow up and get back in the fold.

We're already seen as a laughingstock. I think people would commend Bowlen for doing what was right even if it would be embarassing.

4. Regardless of the initial reasons for the divide, McDaniels has made it quite clear in recent weeks that Cutler is our QB. If Jay C continues to stay away it makes it pretty clear he no longer wishes to play for this franchise so why hold on to a player who does not want to play here regardless of his value???

Oh no you don't. You can't say "Regardless of the initial reasons". You can't play "oh I dont care what happened before, but now its the other guy that can fix it", as if you can get away totally scot-free just so long as the other guy can fix it. If we went with that approach, we would incentivize all sorts of horrible conduct and then the Coach could just turn around later and act all nice and say "well...now I'm willing to shake your hand or do whatever, so step up the plate and do what I want". Hell no. If you've got unclean hands, they follow you throughout.

5. Most importantly Bowlen has already stated that he's 100% behind his HC and he is pretty angry with Cutler's stance in all this, so him choosing Cutler over McDaniels will never happen anyway and he is completely right.

Actually, Bowlen has backed off of that and from his comments, it seems he is starting to get peeved with McDaniels. He has come out more recently than your statement and said he was not going to get into who was to blame. He also said Josh was "trying to" be a head coach, which many people believe was a slap at him. There was also a source from the Examiner that said that Bowlen is FORCING McDaniels to play nice with Cutler, which would suggest he isn't super pleased with McDaniels.



My responses above.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-28-2009, 05:28 PM
If they were both released on the open market today, one would have people fighting for his services, the other would not. That tells you all you need to know about who has more value.

Great strawman. Every team has a HC, not every team has a QB they like. McDaniels was one of the top candidates on the market when teams were filling their openings.

Northman
03-28-2009, 05:34 PM
Based upon the choices i go with Cutler. But it could of used more options.

frerottenextelway
03-28-2009, 05:36 PM
Great strawman. Every team has a HC, not every team has a QB they like. McDaniels was one of the top candidates on the market when teams were filling their openings.

There are 32 HC spots and 32 starting QBs spots in the NFL. It's an equal playing field.

Also, please learn what the term strawman means before attempting to use it next time.

SouthStndJunkie
03-28-2009, 05:36 PM
Dan Marino and John Elway were superior players to Joe Montana, but Montana had an all-world coach that built a system around his strengths and made him one of the most successful quarterbacks in NFL history. Tom Brady and both Mannings aren't half as athletic as some of the quarterbacks out there, including our own, but they have general managers and coaches who know how to build a team.


Please....let's not compare McDamnit to Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick before he wins a game....or even runs a practice.

baja
03-28-2009, 05:41 PM
You have to look at this from many different perspectives not just who has the most value to the franchise.

1. If Bowlen chose a player over a HC even before that said HC had managed one Denver Bronco game how would that look in the eyes of the rest of the NFL and in particular to the next perspective HC of the Denver Broncos? Who in the hell would want to work for an owner who chooses players over his coaching staff??? Or indeed let's a HC go before he's played one football game.

2. Denver would be fair game to every single player on the roster who ever has a grievance. Bowlen/Xanders would be inundated with extended contract requests and potential hold-outs.

3. The franchise and Bowlen in particular would be seen as a laughing stock throughout the NFL. This situation has already become an embarassment but what we've witnessed from various recent NFL analyist opinion is that Cutler is in the wrong here and needs to grow up and get back in the fold.

4. Regardless of the initial reasons for the divide, McDaniels has made it quite clear in recent weeks that Cutler is our QB. If Jay C continues to stay away it makes it pretty clear he no longer wishes to play for this franchise so why hold on to a player who does not want to play here regardless of his value???

5. Most importantly Bowlen has already stated that he's 100% behind his HC and he is pretty angry with Cutler's stance in all this, so him choosing Cutler over McDaniels will never happen anyway and he is completely right.

LOCK THREAD

frerottenextelway
03-28-2009, 05:43 PM
My responses above.

well put.

/end thread

Cito Pelon
03-28-2009, 05:55 PM
Josh, because he has the reins of the team in has hands and he's done a good job so far in building the staff, bringing in decent FA's, cutting the dead weight, retaining the cream.

Jay I don't think matches the importance of Josh. Jay has to grow up. He's one of 53, that's all. I'm pretty disgusted with Jay right now and I wonder if he'll ever amount to much.

baja
03-28-2009, 05:57 PM
Based upon the choices i go with Cutler. But it could of used more options.


LOL It is the simplest of questions.


Do tell what options would you like?


BTW Like it or not Pat Bowlen has chosen his head of the snake and it doesn't matter if that head is pretty or to your liking it's still the head and by definition the most important. Blue was right when she said "It's not even close" except she had the wrong party, it's Josh McDaniels.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-28-2009, 06:10 PM
There are 32 HC spots and 32 starting QBs spots in the NFL. It's an equal playing field.

Also, please learn what the term strawman means before attempting to use it next time.

Are you serious? Do you even know what an equal playing field is? Simply because there are 32 HC spots and 32 starting QB spots available in the NFL does not mean that there is an equal playing field between the two. There are so many other factors that are taken into account between a coach and a player, one of the biggest differences being that one has a guaranteed contract and the other does not.

No team is going to dump their HC in late March/early April for any coach who becomes available. Do you actually think if someone like Shanny or Cowher came out and said that they wanted to coach this year, some team would fire their HC after the start of FA and a month out from the draft? By your logic, if no team hired those 2, Cutler would have more value. Do you actually think Jay would have more value than those 2 Super Bowl winning HCs if no one was willing to hire them a month into FA and a month out from the draft?

Dedhed
03-28-2009, 06:13 PM
Please....let's not compare McDamnit to Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick before he wins a game....or even runs a practice.

But let's compare Cutler to every Franchise QB before he ever makes the playoffs, right?

eddie mac
03-28-2009, 06:13 PM
My responses above.

Sorry SoCal but your admiration for Cutler far outweighs the bigger picture here.

You seriously downplay the affect it would have on this franchise if Bowlen sided with a player and if you think the message that would send to the rest of the league and other HC candidates would be futile you are totally wrong.

How many HC's have been fired before even coaching one game???

How many owner's have sided with players in the history of the NFL to the extent of firing their coach before he's even prepared a gameplan???

The reason Denver is such a sweet landing spot for coaches is not the money, it's the loyalty shown by the owner.

Shanahan kept his job season upon season when many others lost their heads after better seasons.

If at this point in time Bowlen sided with Cutler over his HC especially in the way JC has handled this situation, he may as well just pack it all in tomorrow and put the franchise on the market cos he'd just have lost any respect he had from anyone in league circles.

Everyone in league circles has backed McDaniels to the hilt and the only ones who have critised him in this case are the ones talking to the media day in day out in order to fan the flames and in most cases all are ex-players with about as much knowledge about running a franchise as Cutler has of a trade proposal and an enquiry.

colonelbeef
03-28-2009, 06:23 PM
Great strawman. Every team has a HC, not every team has a QB they like. McDaniels was one of the top candidates on the market when teams were filling their openings.

actually it's not a bad point.

If a hot young HC was suddenly released, there were be a furor to sign him, just as when a hot young QB is rumored to be released there is a furor. Every team has a HC as well as a QB, and some are far more expendable than others.

baja
03-28-2009, 06:29 PM
Poll is far too simplistic, not to mention that no one has any idea what kind of impact McDaniels will have.

Do us all a favor and make it better.

Blueflame
03-28-2009, 06:31 PM
LOL It is the simplest of questions.


Do tell what options would you like?


BTW Like it or not Pat Bowlen has chosen his head of the snake and it doesn't matter if that head is pretty or to your liking it's still the head and by definition the most important. Blue was right when she said "It's not even close" except she had the wrong party, it's Josh McDaniels.

Except lately, what Bowlen says can change directions as quickly as a kite in a cyclone.

broncofan7
03-28-2009, 06:42 PM
Players, top 10 QB's in particular >>>>>>>>> HC with ZERO HC experience

fontaine
03-28-2009, 06:48 PM
I support both of these guys but I have got to say that a franchise QB is far and away more important than a HC.

As a franchise QB you expect the guy to be in Denver for at least a decade playing at a high level if you draft him like Cutler.

Compare that to a HC and it's very, very rare to see a HC survive with the same team for a decade. I think a more interesting question would be which one is more of a sure thing at this stage? Cutler or McDaniels?

Cutler is already on his way to being one of the best young QBs of league and McDaniels is a huge unkown at this point in time.

NFLBRONCO
03-28-2009, 07:08 PM
I support both of these guys but I have got to say that a franchise QB is far and away more important than a HC.

As a franchise QB you expect the guy to be in Denver for at least a decade playing at a high level if you draft him like Cutler.

Compare that to a HC and it's very, very rare to see a HC survive with the same team for a decade. I think a more interesting question would be which one is more of a sure thing at this stage? Cutler or McDaniels?

Cutler is already on his way to being one of the best young QBs of league and McDaniels is a huge unkown at this point in time.

Right now its definately McD because our star qb is pouting and hiding in Tenn. I want Cutler here for the next decade but, I'm really disappointed how he's handled this esp a so called leader of our team.

DenverBrit
03-28-2009, 07:15 PM
Who's more likely to get traded? :wiggle:

Dedhed
03-28-2009, 07:19 PM
I support both of these guys but I have got to say that a franchise QB is far and away more important than a HC.

As a franchise QB you expect the guy to be in Denver for at least a decade playing at a high level if you draft him like Cutler.

Compare that to a HC and it's very, very rare to see a HC survive with the same team for a decade. I think a more interesting question would be which one is more of a sure thing at this stage? Cutler or McDaniels?

Cutler is already on his way to being one of the best young QBs of league and McDaniels is a huge unkown at this point in time.
Do we have a franchise QB?

Dedhed
03-28-2009, 07:26 PM
Who's more likely to get traded? :wiggle:

That's exactly right, and there's also the question of whether Cutler is more valuable in a Broncos uni, or as trade bait.

baja
03-28-2009, 07:31 PM
Except lately, what Bowlen says can change directions as quickly as a kite in a cyclone.

Come on Blue you're a great fan and a smart girl. Bowlen will not fire Josh in under 2 seasons and if anything is clear in all this is McDaniels is going to get his full shot with this franchise win or lose so that makes him the most valuable on the Bronco. team. No question!

You need to get over this jilted suitor snit you are in. It's gonna be fine.

BroncoMan4ever
03-28-2009, 07:32 PM
the compensation at best will take 2-3 years to be any good, and in the meantime the offense takes many steps back and with the compensation unless it is another 25 year old franchise pro bowl QB is not helping us.

Jay is more important. he proved he can win a lot of games with marginal help last season. he doesn't need a defense like the steelers around him, he needs a mediocre defense and he will win. because without him last year our 8-8 that we are all bitching about is at best 4-12 with anyone else leading the team

McDaniels is a rookie coach from a Patriots coaching tree where none have succeeded outside of NE. he can be replaced. last season we didn't need a new HC we needed a new DC. we can win with any HC if we have decent Defensive production.

McDaniels can be replaced in an offseason. it can take years to find another QB half as good as Jay. ask the Colts, they traded Elway and took almost 20 years to find a franchise QB. us even, we waited nearly a decade to find a guy capable of standing in Elway's shadow and not being phased by it, a guy with the talent and potential to be every bit as good as Elway was.

you don't toss that aside for a rookie HC on an ego trip with more power than he should have at this point in his career

baja
03-28-2009, 07:36 PM
Who is 'us'?

The posters you are sharing this thread with obviously.

Blueflame
03-28-2009, 07:40 PM
Come on Blue you're a great fan and a smart girl. Bowlen will not fire Josh in under 2 seasons and if anything is clear in all this is McDaniels is going to get his full shot with this franchise win or lose so that makes him the most valuable on the Bronco. team. No question!

You need to get over this jilted suitor snit you are in. It's gonna be fine.

You're probably right that we're stuck with him at least 2 years... but those 2 seasons may not be fun times for Broncos fans, Baja.

I'm currently teaching a 16-year-old to drive. Now it's springtime and the pavement shoulders are very soft. If my son edges too close to the shoulder of the road, do I keep my mouth shut and just watch him do it; trusting that he knows better and won't get too far over... or do I say something and avert a possible accident? (definitely the latter choice)

I think Bowlen's sitting there watching the noob roll the car.

Northman
03-28-2009, 07:49 PM
LOL It is the simplest of questions.


Do tell what options would you like?


BTW Like it or not Pat Bowlen has chosen his head of the snake and it doesn't matter if that head is pretty or to your liking it's still the head and by definition the most important. Blue was right when she said "It's not even close" except she had the wrong party, it's Josh McDaniels.


Based on what? He hasnt done anything yet. Ha!

Northman
03-28-2009, 07:49 PM
Poll is far too simplistic, not to mention that no one has any idea what kind of impact McDaniels will have.

Shhh, thats too much to comprehend. Hilarious!

baja
03-28-2009, 07:51 PM
I support both of these guys but I have got to say that a franchise QB is far and away more important than a HC.

As a franchise QB you expect the guy to be in Denver for at least a decade playing at a high level if you draft him like Cutler.

Compare that to a HC and it's very, very rare to see a HC survive with the same team for a decade. <b> I think a more interesting question would be which one is more of a sure thing at this stage? Cutler or McDaniels?</b>

Cutler is already on his way to being one of the best young QBs of league and McDaniels is a huge unkown at this point in time.

That is a good question. My take is everything considered predicting what kind of careers they are going to have is a toss up for either one.

WABronco
03-28-2009, 08:01 PM
Very cool thread idea. Also somewhat amusing, in that the predictable cast of characters coming out clamoring for their boy. Which is fine...

In my opinion, the coach would be the more important of the two. He is the de facto leader and directly influences the direction of the team. In this case, the coach also has a lot of say in the player personnel department as well. With that said I don't see how you could argue otherwise. Right or wrong, the coach is the headman.

McDaniels is the one who will bring this thing to a close, one way or the other. And McDaniels won't be the one who leaves, if it comes to that...that should tell you right there who's viewed as more important to the franchise and its future.

I think we need a new direction. The previous one, the one with a potent albeit volatile offense and the league's 35th ranked defense, was going nowhere. We are starting to see that new direction, and while it may blow up in our face, it might also...ummm...blossom.

The only possible instance, in my opinion, you could argue against the coach being more important is...obviously...Peyton Manning and Indy. Even then, is Peyton a SB champ or seen as a "winner" without Dungy?

Northman
03-28-2009, 08:06 PM
Very cool thread idea. Also somewhat amusing, in that the predictable cast of characters coming out clamoring for their boy. Which is fine...

In my opinion, the coach would be the more important of the two. He is the de facto leader and directly influences the direction of the team. In this case, the coach also has a lot of say in the player personnel department as well. With that said I don't see how you could argue otherwise. Right or wrong, the coach is the headman.

McDaniels is the one who will bring this thing to a close, one way or the other. And McDaniels won't be the one who leaves, if it comes to that...that should tell you right there who's viewed as more important to the franchise and its future.

The only possible instance, in my opinion, you could argue against the coach being more important is...obviously...Peyton Manning and Indy. Even then, is Peyton a SB champ or seen as a "winner" without Dungy?



Unfortuantely, McD is no Dungy.. yet. So while the HC may be seen as the more important cog there are plenty of HC's who have also failed miserably. Right now, McD has done notta as a HC to qualify as being more important to this franchise than Cutler. Thus, which leaves the options a bit vague considering we havent even seen the guy coach a game yet.

frerottenextelway
03-28-2009, 08:14 PM
Are you serious? Do you even know what an equal playing field is? Simply because there are 32 HC spots and 32 starting QB spots available in the NFL does not mean that there is an equal playing field between the two. There are so many other factors that are taken into account between a coach and a player, one of the biggest differences being that one has a guaranteed contract and the other does not.

No team is going to dump their HC in late March/early April for any coach who becomes available. Do you actually think if someone like Shanny or Cowher came out and said that they wanted to coach this year, some team would fire their HC after the start of FA and a month out from the draft? By your logic, if no team hired those 2, Cutler would have more value. Do you actually think Jay would have more value than those 2 Super Bowl winning HCs if no one was willing to hire them a month into FA and a month out from the draft?

Glad you brought up Shanahan and Cowher. There was demand for those two along the lines of the demand that is out there for Cutler. There has been no demand for McDaniels remotely approaching those lines ever.

And to answer your question, yes. Dallas comes to mind, p'bly others as well.

Cito Pelon
03-28-2009, 08:16 PM
Obviously, Jay Cutler.

He brings more value. He's simply worth alot more. He's a young, elite QB that many respected analysts believe is the best young QB in the game (Jaws, Mayock, Martz etc.) and at worst, is simply among the best young QBs in the game. He's got terrific physical tools, he's shown he can come back from deficits and can put the team on his back. It's been conclusively shown that when he has even an average defense, he leads the team to a whole lot more wins than losses. He's just a special talent. He's got tremendous arm strength, very good accuracy, excellent velocity and can elude pressure and make something out of nothing.

Without Jay Cutler, we would have gone 3-13 last year. We've seen a number of folks (Kirwan et al) say that at the very least he's worth two first round picks. Do you think anyone would give up 2 first rounders for our "coach" (if trading picks for coaches were still allowed)?

Jay Cutler has proven time and time again that he's a stud. He's wild at times and is overaggressive, perhaps too confident in his ability to throw a ball through a carwash without getting it wet and that sometimes leads to mistakes, but he's a stud in any event. What has Josh McDaniels accomplished as Head Coach of this team? Has he won any Super Bowls for us? Has he won any games for us? He was given more offensive talent than the Patriots had in their prior Super Bowl wins and all he could muster was a few points in the Super Bowl as a coordinator. He's proven that he can botch even the slightest of crises.

It's not even close. He hasn't shown that he has any value to us, yet. What value does he have? When he leads us to successful outcomes on the backs of players other than those he inherited, then he will demonstrate his value.
As of right now, he has no value. It is not a difficult question.

"Elite" and "proven time and time again that [Jay]'s a stud" are debatable. Those statements in fact are laughable at times in Jay's career. I'm not sold on Jay Cutler as a stud. The kid could flame out in 3 years.

WABronco
03-28-2009, 08:21 PM
"Elite" and "proven time and time again that [Jay]'s a stud" are debatable. Those statements in fact are laughable at times in Jay's career. I'm not sold on Jay Cutler as a stud. The kid could flame out in 3 years.

Agreed.

Having a great arm and some nice game lines doesn't make you a "once in a generation qb" or a "proven stud"...

...show's you have some talent and potential, but hey, lots of players have had that.

Blueflame
03-28-2009, 08:35 PM
Agreed.

Having a great arm and some nice game lines doesn't make you a "once in a generation qb" or a "proven stud"...

...show's you have some talent and potential, but hey, lots of players have had that.

Even more haven't had it. And that includes QBs who were drafted among the top 5 overall (Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Rick Mirer, Ryan Leaf... the list goes on and on).

Cito Pelon
03-28-2009, 08:39 PM
I could see him become the type of playcaller Manning is if he chooses to.

The thing about Jay is he has that windup throwing motion. I've seen hundreds of QB's in the NFL, only a few of them have that windup throwing motion. Most QB's never even get to the NFL with a windup like that. Some that have had success - Aaron Brooks, Kerry Collins, Eli Manning. It's a pretty short list. Cutler is #4, but he's not a super-duper guy you extend prior to his 4th year in the League.

BroncoMan4ever
03-28-2009, 08:43 PM
In my opinion, the coach would be the more important of the two. He is the de facto leader and directly influences the direction of the team. In this case, the coach also has a lot of say in the player personnel department as well. With that said I don't see how you could argue otherwise. Right or wrong, the coach is the headman.

McDaniels is the one who will bring this thing to a close, one way or the other. And McDaniels won't be the one who leaves, if it comes to that...that should tell you right there who's viewed as more important to the franchise and its future.


i would agree that a coach with experience is more important in deciding a direction to go with a team especially when a QB is not already in place, but when it is a rookie HC who has done nothing and he inherits a team with a pro bowl QB, the QB is the most important piece of the franchise and not the coach.

also in the point of whether Jay is the one who would go if it comes down to that. it has nothing to do with McDaniels being more important than Jay. It comes down to pride from Pat.

Bowlen doesn't want to admit to ****ing up his franchise with a bad coaching hire, and he will ride out his mistake so as not to seem like an idiot less than 3 months after hiring McDaniels.

BroncoMan4ever
03-28-2009, 08:47 PM
"Elite" and "proven time and time again that [Jay]'s a stud" are debatable. Those statements in fact are laughable at times in Jay's career. I'm not sold on Jay Cutler as a stud. The kid could flame out in 3 years.

and McDaniels could potentially lead us to a 2-14 record each of the next 4 years and never coach again. the point is right now, Jay has shown more for what he does as a QB than McDaniels has shown at coaching which makes him more important

Mr Chatterboodamn
03-28-2009, 08:47 PM
easy one, cutler.

track record of exciting football vs. track record of [inarticulate] double talk

baja
03-28-2009, 08:47 PM
Based on what? He hasnt done anything yet. Ha!

Maybe not but he is going to get chance even if it means trading an uncooperative Cutler for a nice collection of picks. That makes him the most valuable of the two.

Blueflame
03-28-2009, 09:09 PM
Maybe not but he is going to get chance even if it means trading an uncooperative Cutler for a nice collection of picks. That makes him the most valuable of the two.

It all = high stakes gambling on Bowlen's part. He's committed to supporting the Patriot even if that course ends up being "epic fail". Pat has far more at stake than any fan... his financial bottom line could be significantly affected by even one sub-.500 season, particularly in light of the current economic situation.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 09:10 PM
Maybe not but he is going to get chance even if it means trading an uncooperative Cutler for a nice collection of picks. That makes him the most valuable of the two.

No, that makes him the more powerful of the two, not the more valuable of the two.

SoCalBronco
03-28-2009, 09:10 PM
easy one, cutler.

track record of exciting football vs. track record of [inarticulate] double talk

:strong:

Cito Pelon
03-28-2009, 09:15 PM
Plans are great, but if you don't have the execution on the field they don't mean anything. Talent on the field is more important then coaching.

Beside who many coach jerseys does the NFL sell?

Some of this, some of that, actually. Both are important to consistently hunt titles.

Kaylore
03-28-2009, 09:50 PM
That's not really what the poll is about.
Sure it is. Who's role is more important? The coach or one player? Sure, not all player roles are as important. Jay's is the most important of all the players, at least on offense. But if there's no coach, there's no team. If there's no Jay there is still a Denver Broncos team. It might not be as good, but it's still there. The coach is more important than the players. He also takes the blunt of the responsibility in loses. And that's how it should be.

summerdenver
03-28-2009, 09:52 PM
IMHO, It is naive to think that you can win with a great coach + avg players and not the other way around. Bal proved that a good team can also win with a mediocre coach. To have success over the long term, unquestionably you need good team and a good coach.

I am probably in the minority on this board beacause I do not think the current issue as team vs individual - thats how media painted it. It is a issue between two indivuduals.

As far as the poll question goes, I think you need both a coach/GM and good QB to win consistently and it comes down to who is hard to replace. I could argue that it is hard to replace both good QB and a good coach. The recent trend has been that more good young QBs have come along but on the flip side JMac is a question mark in my view. He may turn out to be a good coach or turnout to be a failure and alienate players and fans.

I voted Cutler as I view him as one of the best young QBs and imo, he has higher floor and ceiling among all yound QBs.

Kaylore
03-28-2009, 10:12 PM
No one is arguing that a team with below average players can win. Don't try and change the parameters of the question. The question is who is more valuable, the QB or the coach. It's the coach. Period.

The coach is responsible for coordinating the game plan. The QB is not. The coach is responsible for all three phases of the game. The QB is not. The coach is responsible when the team wins or loses. To some degree the QB is too, but only in the sense of how he fulfilled his role. The QB does what the coach teaches and instructs him to do. Without the coach, the QB has nothing to do, and neither does the defense or special teams. It all starts and ends with the coach. When the team performs badly, the coach is on the hot seat, not the QB. Coaches get fired when the team stinks. The QB usually doesn't.

There have been plenty of teams that have won championships with QB's less talented than Jay Cutler. A QB can help or hurt a team, but a bad coach can absolutely destroy one. People arguing that McDaniels is ruining the team should have voted McDaniels because by their own argument he has the power to ruin the team, and Cutler does not. Doesn't someone with the power to make or break a team become more important than the one player?

It's the coach. Period.

BroncoMan4ever
03-28-2009, 10:23 PM
Sure it is. Who's role is more important? The coach or one player? Sure, not all player roles are as important. Jay's is the most important of all the players, at least on offense. But if there's no coach, there's no team. If there's no Jay there is still a Denver Broncos team. It might not be as good, but it's still there. The coach is more important than the players. He also takes the blunt of the responsibility in loses. And that's how it should be.

not true. at this point in time right now. McDaniels can walk and Nolan or Dennison can step in and he wouldn't be missed, as the front office and scouting department as well as the assistant coaches have all been involved in the draft process and he hasn't done more than bring in a few FA. the coach only becomes more important to a franchise after he has built up the team and his system is firmly in place.

right now, McDaniels has done neither. which means if we so choose he can get fired and nothing would change for the team, as we are still a month away from camps, and the draft has yet to happen

Jay can get traded and we can spend the next decade or longer looking for a capable replacement.

AbileneBroncoFan
03-28-2009, 10:26 PM
this might be the most ignorant post I have read yet during this whole debacle

how many yards, first downs, and touchdowns did Shanny score or gained himself?

if I remember right, New England had a pretty damn good offense with or without Brady

seriously, you people are amazing

Yes, and how many Super Bowls did he win without Elway? How many playoff games? How many division titles? Zero. I love Shanahan and can't wait to see him in the HOF, but some people on here have their heads so far up his ass that they forget this team hasn't won **** since 1998. We had one good season, hosted the AFC championship game, and got our asses run out of the gym because our quarterback couldn't make plays to keep us in the game. If you want to look at this logistically:

Shanahan playoff wins after Elway: 1
Shanahan Super Bowls after Elway: 0
McDaniels playoff wins after Brady: 0
McDaniels Super Bowls after Brady: 0

I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all of the Shanahan worshipers on here, but he never would've won jack **** if Elway had retired in 95 or 96. And you all know it. True, like McDaniels, he had some good offenses post #7, but, also like McDaniels, got nothing to show for it. I love having dominant offenses, but when it comes down to it, I don't give a rat's ass how we win as long as we win.

Now to talk some sense into the people on here. A coach cannot win without good players. Vince Lombardi would not have won 4 games with the Lions of last year. And likewise, good players can't win with a dumbass coach, which is why our friends in San Diego are pretty much ****ed. Anyone on here who thinks Josh McDaniels is going to have as much success with Chris Simms as he would have with Jay Cutler needs to lay off the weed and stop lying to yourself. Like either of them or not, they both need each other to be successful, and thus we as fans need both of them working at their best for our team to be successful.

summerdenver
03-28-2009, 10:30 PM
No one is arguing that a team with below average players can win. Don't try and change the parameters of the question. The question is who is more valuable, the QB or the coach. It's the coach. Period.

The coach is responsible for coordinating the game plan. The QB is not. The coach is responsible for all three phases of the game. The QB is not. The coach is responsible when the team wins or loses. To some degree the QB is too, but only in the sense of how he fulfilled his role. The QB does what the coach teaches and instructs him to do. Without the coach, the QB has nothing to do, and neither does the defense or special teams. It all starts and ends with the coach. When the team performs badly, the coach is on the hot seat, not the QB. Coaches get fired when the team stinks. The QB usually doesn't.

There have been plenty of teams that have won championships with QB's less talented than Jay Cutler. A QB can help or hurt a team, but a bad coach can absolutely destroy one. People arguing that McDaniels is ruining the team should have voted McDaniels because by their own argument he has the power to ruin the team, and Cutler does not. Doesn't someone with the power to make or break a team become more important than the one player?

It's the coach. Period.


You are basically arguing which position is more important and I am not sure thats what the poll is asking for.

By your argument if tomorrow Borncos replace JMac with Coach X then coach X is more valuable than the incumbent QB whether its Jay Cutler or Tom Brady

baja
03-28-2009, 10:58 PM
Under the current situation McDaniels, with the commitment and blessing extended to him by Bowlen, is deep into the process of remaking the Broncos to the core and on as physiological level. This is a profound change that at the moment Jay Cutler appears to not be on board with for what appears to be a weak reason, with that as a given how can anyone not see that it's McDaniels that is the main guy around Dove Valley. To not except that will in no way change to truth of McDaniels value.

Northman
03-28-2009, 11:07 PM
McDaniels will get his shot this year. It shouldnt be hard for him to do better than 8-8 considering he has done the house cleaning to the defense and he brings a brilliant mind to the offense with or without a guy like Cutler to run it. Afterall, he can take the ordinary and make them extrardinary based on his history as a OC. However, if he cant do better than 8-8 this year.......

BroncoMan4ever
03-28-2009, 11:27 PM
McDaniels will get his shot this year. It shouldnt be hard for him to do better than 8-8 considering he has done the house cleaning to the defense and he brings a brilliant mind to the offense with or without a guy like Cutler to run it. Afterall, he can take the ordinary and make them extrardinary based on his history as a OC. However, if he cant do better than 8-8 this year.......

i have to wonder, without a talented QB will he be able to even make a bad QB look good. he worked we Cassel for 4 years before he got his shot. that is the only reason he looked good last season. plug in some rookie and the results won't be the same.

also in regards to the defense. yes he cut a lot of dead weight, but he hasn't replaced any of it with clear upgrades. and with the draft it looks as though we are going to be a defense of guys past their prime and guys a few years away from hitting their prime. not much of an upgrade in the defense.

i say 8-8 is what you are shooting for with Jay. we'll be lucky to see 5-11 without Jay

baja
03-28-2009, 11:29 PM
Accept.

Right, 'accept' thanks ;D

Northman
03-28-2009, 11:32 PM
i have to wonder, without a talented QB will he be able to even make a bad QB look good. he worked we Cassel for 4 years before he got his shot. that is the only reason he looked good last season. plug in some rookie and the results won't be the same.

also in regards to the defense. yes he cut a lot of dead weight, but he hasn't replaced any of it with clear upgrades. and with the draft it looks as though we are going to be a defense of guys past their prime and guys a few years away from hitting their prime. not much of an upgrade in the defense.

i say 8-8 is what you are shooting for with Jay. we'll be lucky to see 5-11 without Jay


Nah, come on man. McD is the savior. He made a legend out of Cassell who hadnt started since kindergarden. Imagine what he can do with Simms? Jay is just a flash in the pan. And defense? Who needs defense when you have McDefense? Just waiting on that hamburglar signing to come along.

TheDave
03-28-2009, 11:40 PM
Just as a sode note does anyone consider the fact that the Pats were 16-0 the season before with brady... With Cassel they were 11-5.

baja
03-28-2009, 11:46 PM
Nah, come on man. McD is the savior. He made a legend out of Cassell who hadnt started since kindergarden. Imagine what he can do with Simms? Jay is just a flash in the pan. And defense? Who needs defense when you have McDefense? Just waiting on that hamburglar signing to come along.

Seems to me that on the one side some folks see McDaniels as a complete failure before his first practice and the other side is saying lets hold off on the firing squad at least until mid season.

BroncoMan4ever
03-28-2009, 11:53 PM
Nah, come on man. McD is the savior. He made a legend out of Cassell who hadnt started since kindergarden. Imagine what he can do with Simms? Jay is just a flash in the pan. And defense? Who needs defense when you have McDefense? Just waiting on that hamburglar signing to come along.

see and that's what people are thinking. if he can get a QB familiar with his system he can turn him into this years Matt Cassel and in turn make Jay expendable.

but those with the McDaniels blinders on, have not factored in, that Cassel was in that system for 4 years before he got his chance. with that kind of time in one system, it would be near impossible to suck when you know it inside and out.


if he is as good at making any random QB look good as everyone makes him out to be, he should have been sprouting wood, thinking of what he could have done with a young pro bowler, instead of looking for the easy way out in the form of a security blanket in Cassel

BroncoMan4ever
03-28-2009, 11:56 PM
Seems to me that on the one side some folks see McDaniels as a complete failure before his first practice and the other side is saying lets hold off on the firing squad at least until mid season.

i am more than willing to give him a chance, as soon as he fixes the mess he created.
however, as i hate stupidity, i don't like him at all, and regardless of what he accomplishes i never will. so if he gets fired tomorrow or in 4 years, i really don't give a ****, as long as Jay is still here, and he doesn't destroy the franchise too much

cutman0122
03-29-2009, 12:31 AM
Under the current situation McDaniels, with the commitment and blessing extended to him by Bowlen, is deep into the process of remaking the Broncos to the core and on as physiological level. This is a profound change that at the moment Jay Cutler appears to not be on board with for what appears to be a weak reason, with that as a given how can anyone not see that it's McDaniels that is the main guy around Dove Valley. To not except that will in no way change to truth of McDaniels value.


McD having integrity/credibility issues are weak reasons? :rofl:

baja
03-29-2009, 12:34 AM
i am more than willing to give him a chance, as soon as he fixes the mess he created.
however, as i hate stupidity, i don't like him at all, and regardless of what he accomplishes i never will. so if he gets fired tomorrow or in 4 years, i really don't give a ****, as long as Jay is still here, and he doesn't destroy the franchise too much

I'll try and remember to bump this thread durning mid season. Could be fun.

baja
03-29-2009, 12:35 AM
McD having integrity/credibility issues are weak reasons? :rofl:

Bring the story current than Yes his reasons are now weak.

Rabb
03-29-2009, 09:10 AM
Yes, and how many Super Bowls did he win without Elway? How many playoff games? How many division titles? Zero. I love Shanahan and can't wait to see him in the HOF, but some people on here have their heads so far up his ass that they forget this team hasn't won **** since 1998. We had one good season, hosted the AFC championship game, and got our asses run out of the gym because our quarterback couldn't make plays to keep us in the game. If you want to look at this logistically:

Shanahan playoff wins after Elway: 1
Shanahan Super Bowls after Elway: 0
McDaniels playoff wins after Brady: 0
McDaniels Super Bowls after Brady: 0

I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all of the Shanahan worshipers on here, but he never would've won jack **** if Elway had retired in 95 or 96. And you all know it. True, like McDaniels, he had some good offenses post #7, but, also like McDaniels, got nothing to show for it. I love having dominant offenses, but when it comes down to it, I don't give a rat's ass how we win as long as we win.

Now to talk some sense into the people on here. A coach cannot win without good players. Vince Lombardi would not have won 4 games with the Lions of last year. And likewise, good players can't win with a dumbass coach, which is why our friends in San Diego are pretty much ****ed. Anyone on here who thinks Josh McDaniels is going to have as much success with Chris Simms as he would have with Jay Cutler needs to lay off the weed and stop lying to yourself. Like either of them or not, they both need each other to be successful, and thus we as fans need both of them working at their best for our team to be successful.

it is a good and well thought out post, but...

True, like McDaniels, he had some good offenses post #7, but, also like McDaniels, got nothing to show for it

really? he was with them during all 3 super bowl wins, although I will give you the first one as he was a personnel assistant

A coach cannot win without good players. Vince Lombardi would not have won 4 games with the Lions of last year. And likewise, good players can't win with a dumbass coach

I don't disagree with you at all...but isn't this taking the middle ground instead of your point?

Yes, and how many Super Bowls did he win without Elway?

Again, fair enough...but since everyone makes the bottom line (rightfully so) about super bowl wins...I could take this a step further and ask how many Elway won without Shanny? How many did Reeves win? Oh I know people will say "but we went to..." and I agree...but to your point, that is a flawed argument

One could even argue, Kubes was as instrumental in the back to back super bowl years as any player. Want proof? How well have we done post-Kubes?

Anyone on here who thinks Josh McDaniels is going to have as much success with Chris Simms as he would have with Jay Cutler needs to lay off the weed and stop lying to yourself.

But that is not the question. Put Cutler under a sub-par coach and you are telling me he would do better than McDaniels with a sub-par QB? The Trent Dilfer led Ravens called, they disagree.

This is literally an unwinnable debate on both sides...can't we all just get along? Here's hoping we can all laugh at this when we watch the Broncos win the big one with BOTH of these guys. Then, nobody will give a ****.

Inkana7
03-29-2009, 10:09 AM
No one is arguing that a team with below average players can win. Don't try and change the parameters of the question. The question is who is more valuable, the QB or the coach. It's the coach. Period.

The coach is responsible for coordinating the game plan. The QB is not. The coach is responsible for all three phases of the game. The QB is not. The coach is responsible when the team wins or loses. To some degree the QB is too, but only in the sense of how he fulfilled his role. The QB does what the coach teaches and instructs him to do. Without the coach, the QB has nothing to do, and neither does the defense or special teams. It all starts and ends with the coach. When the team performs badly, the coach is on the hot seat, not the QB. Coaches get fired when the team stinks. The QB usually doesn't.

There have been plenty of teams that have won championships with QB's less talented than Jay Cutler. A QB can help or hurt a team, but a bad coach can absolutely destroy one. People arguing that McDaniels is ruining the team should have voted McDaniels because by their own argument he has the power to ruin the team, and Cutler does not. Doesn't someone with the power to make or break a team become more important than the one player?

It's the coach. Period.
This post is brilliant.

Northman
03-29-2009, 10:31 AM
see and that's what people are thinking. if he can get a QB familiar with his system he can turn him into this years Matt Cassel and in turn make Jay expendable.

but those with the McDaniels blinders on, have not factored in, that Cassel was in that system for 4 years before he got his chance. with that kind of time in one system, it would be near impossible to suck when you know it inside and out.


if he is as good at making any random QB look good as everyone makes him out to be, he should have been sprouting wood, thinking of what he could have done with a young pro bowler, instead of looking for the easy way out in the form of a security blanket in Cassel


Honestly, as much as i love Jay i would be ok with McD trading him away as long as he gets value for him. The way i figure it McD was brought in to win now. So if he thinks he can win without the talents of Cutler than by all means let him get his boys in here. However, if he falls flat on his face this year than he needs to be shown the door. He wasnt brought in to start rebuilding all over again. The areas that needed corrected are not hard to figure out but if he thinks that trading Jay is the answer than by all means let him WIN with his guys. Personally, i see him falling flat on his face but if he can prove me wrong than i better see it this year. We finished 8-8 with one of the worst defenses in the league so theres nowhere to go but up at this point. If he cant beat 8-8 this year than he is a failure. Simple as that.

BroncoMan4ever
03-29-2009, 02:18 PM
But that is not the question. Put Cutler under a sub-par coach and you are telling me he would do better than McDaniels with a sub-par QB? The Trent Dilfer led Ravens called, they disagree.

This is literally an unwinnable debate on both sides...can't we all just get along? Here's hoping we can all laugh at this when we watch the Broncos win the big one with BOTH of these guys. Then, nobody will give a ****.

i am sorry but i have to call you on that. The trent Dilfer led Ravens had one of the league's all time best defenses. if you're a QB on a team with a defense only allowing 12 points a game, you can be a mediocre QB and have no problems.

but that isn't the case in Denver. at best we are going to have a mediocre defense, which means we are going to need a dominant QB to balance that out. look at last season. do you really think any other QB outside of maybe Peyton could have gotten Denver to 8-8 with our defense and no running game?

BroncoMan4ever
03-29-2009, 02:22 PM
Honestly, as much as i love Jay i would be ok with McD trading him away as long as he gets value for him. The way i figure it McD was brought in to win now. So if he thinks he can win without the talents of Cutler than by all means let him get his boys in here. However, if he falls flat on his face this year than he needs to be shown the door. He wasnt brought in to start rebuilding all over again. The areas that needed corrected are not hard to figure out but if he thinks that trading Jay is the answer than by all means let him WIN with his guys. Personally, i see him falling flat on his face but if he can prove me wrong than i better see it this year. We finished 8-8 with one of the worst defenses in the league so theres nowhere to go but up at this point. If he cant beat 8-8 this year than he is a failure. Simple as that.

i agree with this. but in reality there is no adequate compensation for Jay, that we can realistically get. meaning if McDaniels gets his wish and moves him out, we are going to get fleeced in the deal regardless of what we get.

teams that have the necessary combination of picks and players to get Jay, either don't need or want him.
teams that want him, don't have the necessary combination of picks and players to get him.

so if he is traded it is going to be for less than we should get in return and will be a bad trade on our part, and a good deal for whoever gets him.

AbileneBroncoFan
03-29-2009, 02:40 PM
it is a good and well thought out post, but...



really? he was with them during all 3 super bowl wins, although I will give you the first one as he was a personnel assistant

Weis and Crennel were much more crucial to those championships than McDaniels.


I don't disagree with you at all...but isn't this taking the middle ground instead of your point?

My point is we will not win without both. A coach with good schemes and ability to motivate will not win with garbage players, and superstar players will not be put in positions to maximize their talents without good coaching. People are acting like either Josh or Jay is the iceberg that is going to sink the Titanic, yet they fail to realize that this is impossible, since they are both passengers on the ship. It is in neither's best interest for the ship to go down.

Again, fair enough...but since everyone makes the bottom line (rightfully so) about super bowl wins...I could take this a step further and ask how many Elway won without Shanny? How many did Reeves win? Oh I know people will say "but we went to..." and I agree...but to your point, that is a flawed argument

In reality, Super Bowl wins is not the best way to judge a coach or a quarterback. You can have great teams, great coaching, and great players and still not have the luck to win it all. Every year, regardless of who wins, you need a little luck on your side. Ask Karl Malone, John Stockton, and Jerry Sloan. Jeff Fisher has never won a title, but is he not a damn good coach? They seem to make the AFC title game about every other year, and were literally a foot away from winning SB XXXIV. The best way to judge an organization is how often they are considered a legitimate contender for a Super Bowl once the playoffs begin. In that sense, we have been a legitimate contender one time since Elway left. 1/10 years is not very good. Reeves did not ever win, but we were serious contenders year after year. I'm not saying he was the best man for the job, nor that he would have done as well without Elway, but we at least had a chance. As for Cutler and McDaniels, we don't really know what they offer, as both are too young and too inexperienced. Cutler has been on piss poor teams, and McDaniels has been on one of the best of all time. Now it's time for both to sink or swim. We'll see what happens.

One could even argue, Kubes was as instrumental in the back to back super bowl years as any player. Want proof? How well have we done post-Kubes?

We've still had top 10 offenses. How much has he won in Houston. We can go round and round on this stuff all day and be right back where we started.

But that is not the question. Put Cutler under a sub-par coach and you are telling me he would do better than McDaniels with a sub-par QB? The Trent Dilfer led Ravens called, they disagree.

Let's not compare a Nate Webster led defense to a Ray Lewis led defense that was one of the top 5 defenses ever assembled. What both Cutler and McDaniels should be concerned about is how to make our defense at least respectable. If anything is going to ruin their chances at being winners, it's our lack of defense, not the ability of these two men.

This is literally an unwinnable debate on both sides...can't we all just get along? Here's hoping we can all laugh at this when we watch the Broncos win the big one with BOTH of these guys. Then, nobody will give a ****.

Indeed. The worst part of this offseason is that we are having useless discussions about firing our brand new head coach, who shows some promise, and what trade value we can get for the best player on our team/franchise quarterback instead of how we can improve the defense and win a few titles. Face it people, McDaniels is going nowhere, Cutler is going nowhere, and it's time to worry about things that will actually improve our football team.

Kaylore
03-29-2009, 02:45 PM
I would also like to point out that Cutler doesn't even want to be a Bronco, which effectively makes him worthless (in Denver, anyway).

OWNED!

AbileneBroncoFan
03-29-2009, 02:57 PM
I would also like to point out that Cutler doesn't even want to be a Bronco, which effectively makes him worthless (in Denver, anyway).

OWNED!

Cutler wants what all players want: money and success. If he comes back, we make the playoffs, and he gets a new deal next offseason, I assure he will want to remain a Bronco. Remember, about a year and a half ago, Kobe Bryant demanded a trade. Now he is a Laker for life again.

Blueflame
03-29-2009, 03:16 PM
Isn't it more accurate to say "he doesn't want to play for Josh McDaniels"? I think he'd be perfectly happy to stay in Denver if we had anyone else as HC.

Kaylore
03-29-2009, 03:28 PM
Isn't it more accurate to say "he doesn't want to play for Josh McDaniels"? I think he'd be perfectly happy to stay in Denver if we had anyone else as HC.

In the abstract you might have a point. Every other Bronco is on board and excited about the head coach. The organization is committed to McDaniels. McDaniels isn't going anywhere. So practically your point is moot.

Blueflame
03-29-2009, 03:36 PM
In the abstract you might have a point. Every other Bronco is on board and excited about the head coach. The organization is committed to McDaniels. McDaniels isn't going anywhere. So practically your point is moot.

Actually the point still stands that Cutler's issue isn't with the city or with the team; the only reason he wants to go somewhere else is he doesn't think he can trust McDaniels.

BroncoMan4ever
03-29-2009, 03:43 PM
In the abstract you might have a point. Every other Bronco is on board and excited about the head coach. The organization is committed to McDaniels. McDaniels isn't going anywhere. So practically your point is moot.

who exactly are these excited players? from what i have seen it is the guys Mcdaniels signed himself and a couple young guys who are going to be big parts of the offense and don't want to piss of the guy in charge.

seems to me a majority are with Jay, but are not going to publicly admit that, and are doing the politically correct thing and backing their coach

baja
03-29-2009, 03:44 PM
who exactly are these excited players? from what i have seen it is the guys Mcdaniels signed himself and a couple young guys who are going to be big parts of the offense and don't want to piss of the guy in charge.

seems to me a majority are with Jay, but are not going to publicly admit that, and are doing the politically correct thing and backing their coach

And you know that how?

BroncoMan4ever
03-29-2009, 03:46 PM
And you know that how?

exactly the same way everyone who backs McDaniels seems to know everyone on the team loves and supports McDaniels and think Cutler is wrong.

it is more logical to think a team will back the QB and the man who has carried them for the last 37 games over a guy who came in less than 3 months ago and has effectively torn the team apart.

baja
03-29-2009, 03:53 PM
exactly the same way everyone who backs McDaniels seems to know everyone on the team loves and supports McDaniels and think Cutler is wrong.

it is more logical to think a team will back the QB and the man who has carried them for the last 37 games over a guy who came in less than 3 months ago and has effectively torn the team apart.

Would that be true with a Jeff George QBed team.

Ever think jay is not inspiring much love from his mates?

Point is you do not know these things all you really know that on the Bowlen owned Broncos McDaniels is the coach and not going anywhere, if anybody leaves it will be Jay and that is very unlikely.

TDmvp
03-29-2009, 04:01 PM
On a side note ... Jeff George is a PoS ...

O the great stories of him when he lived in Indy . He used to get in shouting matches with his mom in stores like twice a month .

I used to run sound for bands and rent out PA and this guy who did the same thing was telling us about when worked as a DJ in a local strip club and Jeff would come in all drunk and hassle the girls. Wanting them to do some of the SICKEST STUFF I had ever heard ... Illegal and just sick , 2 girls one cup sick ... They threw him out that night for trying to pay a girl to take a cup and "fill it" for him .

Dudes all class.. as bad of person as he is a QB.
Fing joke of a human being.

BroncoMan4ever
03-29-2009, 04:01 PM
Would that be true with a Jeff George QBed team.

Ever think jay is not inspiring much love from his mates?

Point is you do not know these things all you really know that on the Bowlen owned Broncos McDaniels is the coach and not going anywhere, if anybody leaves it will be Jay and that is very unlikely.

again with the Jeff George comparisons, they are really getting old and have absolutely no merit on this situation

Jay may be annoying vets like Champ, but the majority of the offense and young guys more than likely are on his side regardless of what they are saying to the press.

and yes if anyone goes it will be Cutler and not because it is right or that McDaniels is more important. it is that Bowlen will not allow himself to made to look like a fool less 3 months after a coaching change and regardless of the situation he is basically married to McDaniels for at least a couple years.

by letting McDaniels go, he would have to admit to making a mistake firing Mike and a subsequent failure in picking the wrong guy to replace Mike.

Inkana7
03-29-2009, 05:13 PM
Isn't it more accurate to say "he doesn't want to play for Josh McDaniels"? I think he'd be perfectly happy to stay in Denver if we had anyone else as HC.

The fact that he was upset with the firing of Shanahan to begin with makes your point null and void.

Blueflame
03-29-2009, 05:26 PM
The fact that he was upset with the firing of Shanahan to begin with makes your point null and void.

No it doesn't. Your claim that it does is trumped by the fact that he was still going into the office to get to know the new coaches and familiarize himself with the new offensive system. Which indicates that he was still happy and ready to move on with the new coach. Until something happened.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-29-2009, 05:34 PM
who exactly are these excited players? from what i have seen it is the guys Mcdaniels signed himself and a couple young guys who are going to be big parts of the offense and don't want to piss of the guy in charge.

seems to me a majority are with Jay, but are not going to publicly admit that, and are doing the politically correct thing and backing their coach

So you DON'T actually have any proof? Just that you think they're lying through their teeth to save their own jobs? Really? That's all you've got, huh?

Interesting. I wouldn't hang my hat on that weak-ass peg, but be my guest.

Killericon
03-29-2009, 06:04 PM
If we could somehow apply the VORP system to football, I'm sure Cutler would win, which is why I voted for him, but McDaniels is a complete unknown at this point.

BroncoMan4ever
03-29-2009, 06:43 PM
So you DON'T actually have any proof? Just that you think they're lying through their teeth to save their own jobs? Really? That's all you've got, huh?

Interesting. I wouldn't hang my hat on that weak-ass peg, but be my guest.

what evidence do you have to the contrary that aside from guys he brought in himself and maybe a few others, that the rest of the team is backing him.

you are sure quick to knock down the opinions of others with no actual opinion or proof to prove the opposite.

Irish Stout
03-29-2009, 07:16 PM
This is simple - a good coach can do more for a team than a good QB, but we don't know what McD is capable of... at this point is he more important to the Franchise than Cutler? Probably. But, if we had gotten Spagnuolo or Raheem Morris, they would've been just as important to the Franchise as McD. If we lose Cutler will we get another QB of his caliber? Probably not for awhile.

Theres always the possibility McD will fail (I don't think he will). So if it comes down to having to choose one right now over the other, I would personally pick the bird in hand (Cutler) over two in the bush (McD). I agree with the argument that there are other good coaches out there, but we don't know if there are other good QBs out there. Ultimately we need a good coach to make Cutler and the entire team better. I hope McD is the guy. If McD can do what he did with Cassell to another QB besides Cutler then hes the most important, but we just dont know.

BroncoMan4ever
03-29-2009, 07:26 PM
This is simple - a good coach can do more for a team than a good QB, but we don't know what McD is capable of... at this point is he more important to the Franchise than Cutler? Probably. But, if we had gotten Spagnuolo or Raheem Morris, they would've been just as important to the Franchise as McD. If we lose Cutler will we get another QB of his caliber? Probably not for awhile.

Theres always the possibility McD will fail (I don't think he will). So if it comes down to having to choose one right now over the other, I would personally pick the bird in hand (Cutler) over two in the bush (McD). I agree with the argument that there are other good coaches out there, but we don't know if there are other good QBs out there. Ultimately we need a good coach to make Cutler and the entire team better. I hope McD is the guy. If McD can do what he did with Cassell to another QB besides Cutler then hes the most important, but we just dont know.

i don't buy that. Elway won despite Reeves bad coaching. and yes i say Reeves was a bad coach, his entire scheme was conservative keep it close til the end and then unleash Elway.

a good coach is dependent on good QB play, unless he has a lights out defense.

Shanahan is the perfect example of that as he is one of the best coaches ever. he had the best ever in Elway, and put a few pieces around him and won back to back super bowls. Elway retired and good coaching was not enough to get us more than 1 playoff win for a decade. A good QB can win despite a bad coach, a coach whether good or bad can only win with good QB play(unless they have a great defense)


so when it comes down to it, Jay is more important to Josh, than Josh is to Jay

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-29-2009, 09:24 PM
what evidence do you have to the contrary that aside from guys he brought in himself and maybe a few others, that the rest of the team is backing him.

you are sure quick to knock down the opinions of others with no actual opinion or proof to prove the opposite.

It's funny. What i have is people who actually put their name next to the information they're giving, unlike the "unnamed sources" that have backed the "Josh McDaniels tried really really really hard to trade Jay Cutler and it just didn't turn out" stories. but buy what you want.

cutman0122
03-29-2009, 09:40 PM
i don't buy that. Elway won despite Reeves bad coaching. and yes i say Reeves was a bad coach, his entire scheme was conservative keep it close til the end and then unleash Elway.

a good coach is dependent on good QB play, unless he has a lights out defense.

Shanahan is the perfect example of that as he is one of the best coaches ever. he had the best ever in Elway, and put a few pieces around him and won back to back super bowls. Elway retired and good coaching was not enough to get us more than 1 playoff win for a decade. A good QB can win despite a bad coach, a coach whether good or bad can only win with good QB play(unless they have a great defense)


so when it comes down to it, Jay is more important to Josh, than Josh is to Jay


You sir, are too logical for this issue! Quit it. ;D

baja
03-29-2009, 11:03 PM
again with the Jeff George comparisons, they are really getting old and have absolutely no merit on this situation

Jay may be annoying vets like Champ, but the majority of the offense and young guys more than likely are on his side regardless of what they are saying to the press.

and yes if anyone goes it will be Cutler and not because it is right or that McDaniels is more important. it is that Bowlen will not allow himself to made to look like a fool less 3 months after a coaching change and regardless of the situation he is basically married to McDaniels for at least a couple years.

<b>by letting McDaniels go, he would have to admit to making a mistake firing Mike</b> and a subsequent failure in picking the wrong guy to replace Mike.


I won't be responding to you anymore that's just a plain stupid response dude.

SouthStndJunkie
03-29-2009, 11:24 PM
On a side note ... Jeff George is a PoS ...

O the great stories of him when he lived in Indy . He used to get in shouting matches with his mom in stores like twice a month .


"MOM....THE MEATLOAF!"

Dedhed
03-30-2009, 04:05 AM
i don't buy that. Elway won despite Reeves bad coaching. and yes i say Reeves was a bad coach, his entire scheme was conservative keep it close til the end and then unleash Elway.

a good coach is dependent on good QB play, unless he has a lights out defense.

Shanahan is the perfect example of that as he is one of the best coaches ever. he had the best ever in Elway, and put a few pieces around him and won back to back super bowls. Elway retired and good coaching was not enough to get us more than 1 playoff win for a decade. A good QB can win despite a bad coach, a coach whether good or bad can only win with good QB play(unless they have a great defense)


so when it comes down to it, Jay is more important to Josh, than Josh is to Jay

What,exactly, did Elway win before Shanahan?

Blart
03-30-2009, 04:14 AM
What,exactly, did Elway win before Shanahan?

Oh you know, games.
105 in the regular season.
7 in the post season.
5 AFC West Championships.
3 AFC Championships.

But of course no ring, just like that nobody Marino.

fontaine
03-30-2009, 04:49 AM
I'm just going to add one other thing. The NFL is strictly a results oriented business.

In that case if the Cutler situation isn't resolved and he ends up playing elsewhere then not only is Cutler completely worthless, but so is McDaniels. The QB is singularly the most important position in the team and if our new coach who was brought in to fix this defense, starts off by handicapping this team with a brand new search for a QB then both of these guys are equally unimportant and equally worthless to this organisation period.

rastaman
03-30-2009, 05:08 AM
Dan Marino and John Elway were superior players to Joe Montana, but Montana had an all-world coach that built a system around his strengths and made him one of the most successful quarterbacks in NFL history. Tom Brady and both Mannings aren't half as athletic as some of the quarterbacks out there, including our own, but they have general managers and coaches who know how to build a team.

Most importantly, neither of those guys gets in the way of management trying to dictate how their front office should run. In fact none of the greats ever do anything but suck it up when they disagree with management. They usually just go to work to try and show them how "wrong" they are. Our QB is throwing a tantrum, demanding a trade, and shunning his responsibilities as team leader because he's worrying about how someone else is doing their job - a job he has nothing to do with.


Montana did not play for a 32 year old coach! who has proven nothing. Montana played for a coach that waited his turn and did not become HC until his late 40's and early 50's.

After the crap and lying McDaniels has already started.....he's behind the power curve and must win IMMEDIATELY or else he's in for a long 4 or 5 years.

Hell at least Bowlen has the bottle to nurse his way thru 3, 4, or 5 win seasons. The fans will absolutley rebell. The fans will more than likely accept loosing with Cutler as the QB vs Cutler no longer a Bronco!!!

Rabb
03-30-2009, 09:17 AM
i am sorry but i have to call you on that. The trent Dilfer led Ravens had one of the league's all time best defenses. if you're a QB on a team with a defense only allowing 12 points a game, you can be a mediocre QB and have no problems.

but that isn't the case in Denver. at best we are going to have a mediocre defense, which means we are going to need a dominant QB to balance that out. look at last season. do you really think any other QB outside of maybe Peyton could have gotten Denver to 8-8 with our defense and no running game?

Absolutely agree with that point...but that is not the debate here

the argument is scheme versus talent really...total team scheme versus talent

Baltimore is a tough example, I will give you that because they were SO dominating on defense but I stand by the point that if we had a manageable running game, a solid defense and a good scheme you can plug a QB in that can manage a game (Dilfer) and we would win...and couldn't you possibly say that Baltimore's schemes and coaching had a little to do with the defense also?

that is NOT saying we wouldn't do better with a very good QB in the same situation, I am just saying with the right scheme and coaching I am of the opinion that you can still win with guys like Dilfer or Eli Manning (Cutler is better than both, by far) or Kerry Collins

and don't be sorry for calling me out, that is the fun of this whole thing...I certainly don't get upset about it :-*

DenverBrit
03-30-2009, 10:47 AM
Montana did not play for a 32 year old coach! who has proven nothing. Montana played for a coach that waited his turn and did not become HC until his late 40's and early 50's.

After the crap and lying McDaniels has already started.....he's behind the power curve and must win IMMEDIATELY or else he's in for a long 4 or 5 years.

Hell at least Bowlen has the bottle to nurse his way thru 3, 4, or 5 win seasons. The fans will absolutley rebell. The fans will more than likely accept loosing with Cutler as the QB vs Cutler no longer a Bronco!!!

After his hissy fit and wanting to be traded? I doubt it.

Cutler must win as must McDaniels.

baja
03-30-2009, 12:04 PM
WHAT WAS THE BEST THING BEFORE SLICED BREAD?


The best thing before sliced bread was the tortilla.

The MVPlaya
03-29-2010, 09:04 PM
so now an undeveloped QB is worth more than a HC... HA HA