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HEAV
03-21-2009, 11:28 PM
Mark Eckel -njtimes.com

Denver quarterback Jay Cutler is going to be traded, the only question is where.

A report came out of Denver on Friday that 10 teams have expressed interest in the disgruntled quarterback. Could the Eagles be one of those 10 teams?

While a Cutler-for-Donovan McNabb trade is great for talk-show fodder -- believe me, it works like a charm -- and while several Eagles fans seem to think it would be good for their team, I wouldn't do it.

Yes, Cutler, who turns 26 next month, is six years younger than McNabb, and that's a plus. He's just not as good. And for every Eagles fan who complains that McNabb can't win "the big game," well, Cutler can't win "the small game."

Consider that the Broncos had been a playoff team for three straight years, with Jake Plummer at quarterback, before Cutler took over for him near the end of the 2006 season.

Denver, 7-4 when Cutler replaced Plummer, missed the playoffs that season, as it stumbled to a 2-3 finish under the rookie Cutler and lost a wild-card tie-breaker to Kansas City.

The following season, 2007, the Broncos went 7-9 under Cutler's guidance and last year finished 8-8, losing their final three games of the season to blow what looked like a sure division title.

In those losses last seasons to Carolina, Buffalo and San Diego, Cutler, whose season passer rating was 87.1, put up a 74, a 72 and a 74 rating. In the three games, he threw four interceptions and just two touchdown passes.

That's not coming up big when your team needs you.

In three years, Cutler has a career record of 17-20 and has yet to taste the playoffs, never mind win a playoff game. His 45 touchdowns passes to 32 interceptions borders on just slightly above average.

After McNabb's third season, he had three playoff wins and had been to the first of his five NFC Championship Games. His record as a starter after his third season was 24-14 and he threw 54 touchdowns to 32 interceptions. Burn!;D

The other criticism of McNabb is that he is too sensitive, still gets bothered that he was booed by a group of fans on draft day, let's too many outside things bother him.

Cutler takes all of that to another level.

He was upset the Broncos fired the only head coach he ever had in Mike Shanahan, despite the fact that was long overdue, and then got more upset when the team hired Josh McDaniels to take over.

It seems Cutler wanted input on those decisions.

Then when word got out that McDaniels was thinking of trading him in a package deal that would have landed Matt Cassel in Denver, that's when Cutler lost it and finally demanded a trade.

This all comes from a quarterback with a career record under .500 who has never been to the playoffs.

If Cutler was smart, and you would think a guy who went to Vanderbilt would be very smart -- by the way, Vandy went winless in his senior season -- he would have welcomed McDaniels as his head coach.

In New England, McDaniels worked with the game's best quarterback in Tom Brady and helped turn Cassel into a guy who after one year as a starter was in high demand around the league.

Imagine Cutler in Philadelphia trying to deal with the fishbowl life of being the Eagles' starting quarterback. He might not last half a season.

Hey, this space has been quick to point out McNabb's flaws, but at the same time mentioned his accomplishments. There is no way I'm trading him for Cutler.

Way back in 1964, the Eagles did make a rare quarterback-for-quarterback trade. They sent a 30-year-old, who they felt had seen his best days, to Washington for an up-and-coming 25-year-old with a bright future.

The guy they traded was Sonny Jurgensen, who went on to a Hall of Fame career with the Redskins. The guy they got back was Norman Snead, who went 28-48-3 in seven very bad years with the Eagles.

http://www.nj.com/columns/times/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/123769472498510.xml&coll=5&thispage=2

baja
03-21-2009, 11:36 PM
Quick let's get a 5th round pick for him while we still can.

NUB
03-21-2009, 11:37 PM
Plummer played like piss and won games; has Cutler ever had a poor rating and had the rest of the team still pull a win? I guess people magically forget that the team was a little more complete from '03 to halfway through '06 before the defense blew up.

But hey, I'm just using my memory here. WhattaIknow?

Inkana7
03-21-2009, 11:47 PM
Vandy did NOT got winless in his senior season. And his TD-INT ratio for his career is 54-37.

I'm by no means a Cutlerite. But this article's writer did not do his homework.

spdirty
03-21-2009, 11:53 PM
very shallow logic from a dude who obviously hasnt even followed Cutlers career from even a faraway distance, and has obviously not followed this situation very closely. Wonder if this guy is related to Bernie Lincicome.

BMarsh615
03-21-2009, 11:58 PM
n those losses last seasons to Carolina, Buffalo and San Diego, Cutler, whose season passer rating was 87.1, put up a 74, a 72 and a 74 rating. In the three games, he threw four interceptions and just two touchdown passes.

That's not coming up big when your team needs you.

Yeah our defense only gave up 37 points per game in that 3 game stretch.

spdirty
03-22-2009, 12:00 AM
Yeah our defense only gave up 37 points per game in that 3 game stretch.

Didnt you get the memo? Cutler was suppose to score 38 per game in that stretch.

Popps
03-22-2009, 12:14 AM
Plummer played like piss and won games?

(Better stats in bold)

Cutler's Broncos QB Rating: 87
Plummer's Broncos QB Rating: 84

Cutler TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1.45
Plummer TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1:51

(Plummer average passes per game: 27.0
Cutler average passes per game: 29.7)

Plummer fumbles per-game: 0.13
Cutler fumbles per-game: 0.21

Cutler saked per game: 1.37
Plummer sacked per game: 1.16

Cutler average yards per completion: 7.4
Plummer average yards per copmlettion: 7.17

So, Plummer threw less INTs per passes thrown, more TDs, was sacked less often per game, fumbled less and won more games per start, while throwing almost an identical number of passes per game, for just a slightly lower yards-per-pass average.

Sorry, come again with the "playing like piss" angle again?

Maybe your "memory" isn't so great after all.

OABB
03-22-2009, 12:19 AM
(Better stats in bold)

Cutler's Broncos QB Rating: 87
Plummer's Broncos QB Rating: 84

Cutler TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1.45
Plummer TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1:51

(Plummer average passes per game: 27.0
Cutler average passes per game: 29.7)

Plummer fumbles per-game: 0.13
Cutler fumbles per-game: 0.21

Cutler saked per game: 1.37
Plummer sacked per game: 1.16

Cutler average yards per completion: 7.4
Plummer average yards per copmlettion: 7.17

So, Plummer threw less INTs per passes thrown, more TDs, was sacked less often per game, fumbled less and won more games per start, while throwing almost an identical number of passes per game, for just a slightly lower yards-per-pass average.

Sorry, come again with the "playing like piss" angle again?

Maybe your "memory" isn't so great after all.

Plummer was awesome...of course he had clinton portis and mike anderson, and also kubiak calling the plays.

Jay had mike hiemerdinger(sp?) and mike bell. also, jay's line had erik pears and a should have retired matt lepsis.

but that's just my memory

oh, and plummer was a 10 year vet, while cutler has played two season's

Popps
03-22-2009, 12:19 AM
Look, and before anyone gets into the Cutler/Plummer wars... that's not the point. Jay has more physical talent than Jake, obviously.

But, this idea that we'll be incapable of winning another game for the rest of the franchise existence if we don't have Cutler is idiotic.

You can see a big divide out there in opinion over how much he's worth. A lot of people are asking if they should mortgage their futures for the guy. As the article points out, you can blame everything on everyone else if you want... but if he's a true franchise QB, why did his numbers look so awful in the last three games, when we needed production the most? Certainly, he was in a rough spot, but he also made a lot of terrible throws.

So, again.... I'd still like to see him back in Denver. His upside potential is still intriguing, but you folks talking about this guy like he's done something really need a ****ing reality check.

Popps
03-22-2009, 12:22 AM
Plumber was awesome...of course he had clinton portis and mike anderson, and also kubiak calling the plays.

Jay had mike hiemerdinger(sp?) and mike bell. also, jay's line had erik pears and a should have retired matt lepsis.

but that's just my memory

Ahhhh.... so, Clinton Portis made Jay fumble more often, huh.

Erik Pears made Jay throw more INTs?

Jay playing behind the best Bronco line (this year) since the late 90s doesn't count for anything?

Royal, Marshall, Stokley are worse than an aging Rod Smith and Ashley Lelie?


But, let's just go with your notion that Jay is just a poor guy on a bad team.... and Jake is an oaf with no QB talents... what do the results of both of their respective teams tell you?

OABB
03-22-2009, 12:23 AM
Look, and before anyone gets into the Cutler/Plummer wars... that's not the point. Jay has more physical talent than Jake, obviously.

But, this idea that we'll be incapable of winning another game for the rest of the franchise existence if we don't have Cutler is idiotic.

You can see a big divide out there in opinion over how much he's worth. A lot of people are asking if they should mortgage their futures for the guy. As the article points out, you can blame everything on everyone else if you want... but if he's a true franchise QB, why did his numbers look so awful in the last three games, when we needed production the most? Certainly, he was in a rough spot, but he also made a lot of terrible throws.

So, again.... I'd still like to see him back in Denver. His upside potential is still intriguing, but you folks talking about this guy like he's done something really need a ****ing reality check.

those of us who say Jay has done something are generally from the camp of "I have watched football alot, and I understand how the game is played" crowd.

You see, none of us pro jay crowd have ever said that he is at this point the best qb in the game. We recognize the situation he is in, and see a once in a generation player.

anyone that is o.k. with losing that over a pissing contest need a ****ing reality check.

Flex Gunmetal
03-22-2009, 12:24 AM
FYI, when the Denver defense performed better than the league average im the last two years, cutler is 12-1. The league average for his starting tenure has been 21 pts per game.
Can we please stop considering his win loss record when he is evalutated as a player?
Football is a team sport and idiots have little trouble connecting to the internet.

OABB
03-22-2009, 12:26 AM
Ahhhh.... so, Clinton Portis made Jay fumble more often, huh.

Erik Pears made Jay throw more INTs?

Jay playing behind the best Bronco line (this year) since the late 90s doesn't count for anything?

Royal, Marshall, Stokley are worse than an aging Rod Smith and Ashley Lelie?


But, let's just go with your notion that Jay is just a poor guy on a bad team.... and Jake is an oaf with no QB talents... what do the results of both of their respective teams tell you?


never said any of that. take heav's dick out of your mouth and listen up...

I liked plummer, I like Jay. I love the denver broncos. and I'm getting sick of your piss poor attitude. you come in here every day to pump more venom and it is disturbing.

you need to stop being a ****ing crybaby and shut the **** up.

We went to the afccg with Jake, I loved him, but if you want to talk about fumbles and interceptions, maybe the five turnover's your man crush had in that game had something to do with trading up to draft jay.

JESUS ****ING CHRIST, get over man. Jay cutler doesn't hold a grudge like you.

Popps
03-22-2009, 12:35 AM
Didnt you get the memo? Cutler was suppose to score 38 per game in that stretch.

Carolina and Buffalo scored 30 points.

I thought the line of reasoning around here was that Jay Cutler was the key to our existence because he'd win us games over 30 points. What happened on those days?

Was it maybe the INT at our own 25 that he threw on first down against Carolina when we had a lead, and instead... allowed them to tie?

The interception late in the Buffalo game on a potential game tying drive, or missing Stokley in the endzone at the end of the same game?

Certainly, we were outmatched in San Diego, but Jay's red-zone INT didn't help that day, either...

...and let's remember Jay's game-losing fumble at crunch time against SD that our buddy Ed helped us out with.


So, again... while no one is questioning his arm strength or ability to throw for good fantasy football yardage, he's accomplished nothing. So, to speak of him as a "franchise" quarterback in just silly.

Popps
03-22-2009, 12:38 AM
never said any of that. take heav's ********* your mouth and listen up...

I liked plummer, I like Jay. I love the denver broncos. and I'm getting sick of your piss poor attitude. you come in here every day to pump more venom and it is disturbing.

you need to stop being a ****ing crybaby and shut the **** up.

We went to the afccg with Jake, I loved him, but if you want to talk about fumbles and interceptions, maybe the five turnover's your man crush had in that game had something to do with trading up to draft jay.

JESUS ****ING CHRIST, get over man. Jay cutler doesn't hold a grudge like you.


Ahhhhh... poor guy. Life's got you all bugaboo, huh?

All that cursing, and you still miss the point.

I don't really care if you liked Jake, and my attitude is great! I'm extremely excited about this team going forward.

The FOUNDATION of my argument is that we are not DOOMED if we have to go another direction at QB. So, contrary to your little outburst, I'm the OPTIMIST here.

If you want negativity, it's plentiful. People are talking about not buying team gear, giving up season tickets, calling the coach a "douche" before he's coached a game, calling us Patriots-west... cheaters, you name it.

But, you're barking up the wrong tree, junior. I'm stoked about this team's future.

There are plenty of piss-poor attitudes... but ya got the wrong guy, bud.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 12:44 AM
Plummer played like piss and won games; has Cutler ever had a poor rating and had the rest of the team still pull a win? I guess people magically forget that the team was a little more complete from '03 to halfway through '06 before the defense blew up.

But hey, I'm just using my memory here. WhattaIknow?


yeah none of these supposed experts weigh in the factor that while Plummer was QB here, he was a part of good teams that had defenses and running games. in fact the 2006 season our defense began the season as one of the best ever in terms of points allowed, but in the second half during the time Cutler took over they suffered a collapse that has not been fixed yet.

in his 3 years our running game never looked worse in Shanahan's tenure as a HC, we haven't had anyone with real talent running the ball, and because of that Jay is facing defenses playing just the pass and taking away a lot of options and receivers which forces him to have to throw ill advised passes.

anyone can look like a pro bowler when the defense is good and your teams running game has to be kept in check. it is a lot harder to do that without a defense or running game around you. in fact 17-20 is a damn miracle considering the High School JV defense and non existent running game Jay has had his entire career.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 12:51 AM
(Better stats in bold)

Cutler's Broncos QB Rating: 87
Plummer's Broncos QB Rating: 84

Cutler TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1.45
Plummer TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1:51

(Plummer average passes per game: 27.0
Cutler average passes per game: 29.7)

Plummer fumbles per-game: 0.13
Cutler fumbles per-game: 0.21

Cutler saked per game: 1.37
Plummer sacked per game: 1.16

Cutler average yards per completion: 7.4
Plummer average yards per copmlettion: 7.17

So, Plummer threw less INTs per passes thrown, more TDs, was sacked less often per game, fumbled less and won more games per start, while throwing almost an identical number of passes per game, for just a slightly lower yards-per-pass average.

Sorry, come again with the "playing like piss" angle again?

Maybe your "memory" isn't so great after all.

Plummer had good defenses around him. he had good running games around him. since Jay took over he has had a defense allowing almost 30 points a game. Jake(as much as i liked him) never had to carry the team. he wasn't the only weapon that had to be kept in check by the defense. and instead of being trusted with a full playbook he was given a partial playbook and was asked to only throw high percentage passes while Jay is being asked to go out and win on his own, while Jake was being asked not to go out and lose games

you can spout out the stats all you want, but the point is, give the guy half the help Jake had and Jay will match or better his stats and win just as many or more games.

also, since your a stat guy, 13-1 when the defense allows less than 23 a game. get him a defense that allows 1 TD less a game and he is almost unbeatable. and those are numbers talking, not Homerism.

Archer81
03-22-2009, 12:53 AM
Heav, are you purposely wanting Denver to get rid of Cutler? I'm dissapointed in his actions in regards to the trade, but I dont want him gone. What he do to you? Run over your cat or something?


:Broncos:

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 12:53 AM
it is really getting to the point with Popps where i am convinced he is Mel Kiper in real life. I swear to god it seems like he has a personal vendetta against Jay with no reason.

OABB
03-22-2009, 12:54 AM
Ahhhhh... poor guy. Life's got you all bugaboo, huh?

All that cursing, and you still miss the point.

I don't really care if you liked Jake, and my attitude is great! I'm extremely excited about this team going forward.

The FOUNDATION of my argument is that we are not DOOMED if we have to go another direction at QB. So, contrary to your little outburst, I'm the OPTIMIST here.

If you want negativity, it's plentiful. People are talking about not buying team gear, giving up season tickets, calling the coach a "douche" before he's coached a game, calling us Patriots-west... cheaters, you name it.

But, you're barking up the wrong tree, junior. I'm stoked about this team's future.

There are plenty of piss-poor attitudes... but ya got the wrong guy, bud.

Nice try popps, If you were so "stoked" and "positive" than you wouldn't be the running joke around here.

An optimist is not another term for biased.

they are completely unrelated.

I think you should take a few days off from here and clear your old, demented head.

OABB
03-22-2009, 12:56 AM
it is really getting to the point with Popps where i am convinced he is Mel Kiper in real life. I swear to god it seems like he has a personal vendetta against Jay with no reason.

it's more than "seems"...

oh wait, he's an optimist with a great attitude!

spdirty
03-22-2009, 12:57 AM
Carolina and Buffalo scored 30 points.
Yeah I know people had trouble deciphering our defense from the '00 Ravens those 2 games.


I thought the line of reasoning around here was that Jay Cutler was the key to our existence because he'd win us games over 30 points. What happened on those days?

Ive never said that, and Ive never seen or heard anyone else say that. In fact, I argued that neither he, nor ANY quarteback could consistently win those games. Throwing shlt against a wall, hoping something sticks again.

Was it maybe the INT at our own 25 that he threw on first down against Carolina when we had a lead, and instead... allowed them to tie?

The interception late in the Buffalo game on a potential game tying drive, or missing Stokley in the endzone at the end of the same game?

Certainly, we were outmatched in San Diego, but Jay's red-zone INT didn't help that day, either...

...and let's remember Jay's game-losing fumble at crunch time against SD that our buddy Ed helped us out with.

How about if either of your mancrushes, Simms or Plummer were quarterbacking, we would never even be in any one of those games to begin with? Rather than winning one, and damn near winning the other.



So, again... while no one is questioning his arm strength or ability to throw for good fantasy football yardage, he's accomplished nothing. So, to speak of him as a "franchise" quarterback in just silly.

And by using your same logic, I could point to the '84 game against the Steelers, the '85 game against the Raiders, the '86 Super Bowl against the Giants, the '87 Super Bowl against the Redskins, the entire '88 season, the entire '90 season, the '91 game against the Bills, the '94 opener against the Chargers, the final 3 games of that season where we totally collapsed, and the '96 game against the Jags to prove a similar unbelievably stupid point that Elway was never a franchise quarterback.

DBroncos4life
03-22-2009, 01:11 AM
Carolina and Buffalo scored 30 points.

I thought the line of reasoning around here was that Jay Cutler was the key to our existence because he'd win us games over 30 points. What happened on those days?

Was it maybe the INT at our own 25 that he threw on first down against Carolina when we had a lead, and instead... allowed them to tie?

The interception late in the Buffalo game on a potential game tying drive, or missing Stokley in the endzone at the end of the same game?

Certainly, we were outmatched in San Diego, but Jay's red-zone INT didn't help that day, either...

...and let's remember Jay's game-losing fumble at crunch time against SD that our buddy Ed helped us out with.


So, again... while no one is questioning his arm strength or ability to throw for good fantasy football yardage, he's accomplished nothing. So, to speak of him as a "franchise" quarterback in just silly.

Oh **** our D only allowed 30 points. God for some reason I thought allowing 30 points still sucked.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 01:13 AM
Yeah I know people had trouble deciphering our defense from the '00 Ravens those 2 games.




Ive never said that, and Ive never seen or heard anyone else say that. In fact, I argued that neither he, nor ANY quarteback could consistently win those games. Throwing shlt against a wall, hoping something sticks again.



How about if either of your mancrushes, Simms or Plummer were quarterbacking, we would never even be in any one of those games to begin with? Rather than winning one, and damn near winning the other.





And by using your same logic, I could point to the '84 game against the Steelers, the '85 game against the Raiders, the '86 Super Bowl against the Giants, the '87 Super Bowl against the Redskins, the entire '88 season, the entire '90 season, the '91 game against the Bills, the '94 opener against the Chargers, the final 3 games of that season where we totally collapsed, and the '96 game against the Jags to prove a similar unbelievably stupid point that Elway was never a franchise quarterback.

I genuinely suspect that if the Mane had been in existence back when Reeves tried to trade Elway to the Redskins, Popps would have been defending his right to do it. And minimizing Elway's accomplishments to that date....

spdirty
03-22-2009, 01:16 AM
I genuinely suspect that if the Mane had been in existence back when Reeves tried to trade Elway to the Redskins, Popps would have been defending his right to do it. And minimizing Elway's accomplishments to that date....

bet my left arm he was in the "Elway needs to grow up" category.

Archer81
03-22-2009, 01:18 AM
In 1992 Elway had taken denver to 3 superbowls and had several good seasons. Jay had one good probowl year. Broncos have yet to have a winning season or make the playoffs. Thats why i dont think he deserves an extension.


:Broncos:

spdirty
03-22-2009, 01:20 AM
In 1992 Elway had taken denver to 3 superbowls and had several good seasons. Jay had one good probowl year. Broncos have yet to have a winning season or make the playoffs. Thats why i dont think he deserves an extension.


:Broncos:

In '92 Elway had 10 years under his belt. Cutler so far has had 37 games, and not many of those with an even average defense.

Archer81
03-22-2009, 01:22 AM
In '92 Elway had 10 years under his belt. Cutler so far has had 37 games, and not many of those with an even average defense.


Manning took the Colts to the playoffs in 32 games and had a defense that wasnt exactly stellar.


:Broncos:

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 01:25 AM
I genuinely suspect that if the Mane had been in existence back when Reeves tried to trade Elway to the Redskins, Popps would have been defending his right to do it. And minimizing Elway's accomplishments to that date....

he would have called Elway a hack and said we would have been lucky to go into the future with Maddox calling the shots.

spdirty
03-22-2009, 01:28 AM
Manning took the Colts to the playoffs in 32 games and had a defense that wasnt exactly stellar.


:Broncos:

yeah your right. I give up. Your point has been proven that Cutler is lower than whale shlt at the bottom of the ocean. Maybe we can get a 6th for him. Cant wait to see what this offense looks like once we get a real quarterback in here.

OABB
03-22-2009, 01:28 AM
this is getting ridiculous. I understand both sides of this whole thing and everything...but one thing can no longer be ignored..

Cutler is held to a RIDICULOUS standard...

compared to Elway in 1992, are you ****ing kidding me?

anyone that rags on him here ALWAYS compares him to manning, montana, elway and Farve for christ sakes!

snap out of it people. he's been in the league three ***ing years, and guess what, HE'S NOT AS GOOD AS THE GREATEST QB'S OF ALL TIME YET!

what do you people want?

He has a bad attitude? whine whine whine bitch bitch bitch bitch, he's not your ****ing friend, he's not porking your daughter, he's a ****ing football player.

he's not running for office.

I need to go away from the mane for a while. the levels of stupidity here are offensive and quite frankly, stunning.

I should forward some of these threads to the 28 other fan sites who would kill to have him just so someone else can scream at you ****sticks for a while.


I can see some people sitting around Braveheart getting disembowled and saying "Jesus didn't scream 'freedom!', he wasn't such a flava clown"

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 01:30 AM
Manning took the Colts to the playoffs in 32 games and had a defense that wasnt exactly stellar.


:Broncos:

Cutler's team never went 3-13 either. Furthermore, did Paid-a-ton win? (No.) And although his team also went to the playoffs with a 10-6 record the next season, they again were one-and-done.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 01:31 AM
he would have called Elway a hack and said we would have been lucky to go into the future with Maddox calling the shots.

I do suspect he would not have always been kind to #7.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 01:31 AM
Manning took the Colts to the playoffs in 32 games and had a defense that wasnt exactly stellar.


:Broncos:

he also had a dude by the name of Edgerin James helping him carry the load. and their defense while not spectacular didn't suck every week. they had ups and downs and performed well some weeks and bad other weeks.

Jay is alone, and we know every week we are going to see the worst defense in football.

NUB
03-22-2009, 01:32 AM
(Better stats in bold)

Cutler's Broncos QB Rating: 87
Plummer's Broncos QB Rating: 84

Cutler TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1.45
Plummer TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1:51

(Plummer average passes per game: 27.0
Cutler average passes per game: 29.7)

Plummer fumbles per-game: 0.13
Cutler fumbles per-game: 0.21

Cutler saked per game: 1.37
Plummer sacked per game: 1.16

Cutler average yards per completion: 7.4
Plummer average yards per copmlettion: 7.17

So, Plummer threw less INTs per passes thrown, more TDs, was sacked less often per game, fumbled less and won more games per start, while throwing almost an identical number of passes per game, for just a slightly lower yards-per-pass average.

Sorry, come again with the "playing like piss" angle again?

Maybe your "memory" isn't so great after all.

As someone already mentioned, and as I did in the first place, Plummer had quite the superior team.

Regardless, this was what I was talking about,

HERE ARE SOME OF PLUMMER'S RATINGS IN BRONCOS WINS:


56.7
62.2
51.8
64.1
70.6
68.5
49.2


Now, I'm wondering, has Cutler ever gotten a W when he had a sub-70 rating?


Kthxbye.

Archer81
03-22-2009, 01:32 AM
yeah your right. I give up. Your point has been proven that Cutler is lower than whale shlt at the bottom of the ocean. Maybe we can get a 6th for him. Cant wait to see what this offense looks like once we get a real quarterback in here.


I want WINS. I dont care about stats. I liked Plummer because HE WON, I liked Elway because HE WON. I dont care if Cutler throws for 6,000 yards every season. If we dont get to the playoffs it doesnt ****ing matter what he does. Thats my point.


:Broncos:

Archer81
03-22-2009, 01:34 AM
he also had a dude by the name of Edgerin James helping him carry the load. and their defense while not spectacular didn't suck every week. they had ups and downs and performed well some weeks and bad other weeks.

Jay is alone, and we know every week we are going to see the worst defense in football.


I am playing the worlds tiniest violin for Jay. Elway did much more with much less.

:Broncos:

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 01:38 AM
I want WINS. I dont care about stats. I liked Plummer because HE WON, I liked Elway because HE WON. I dont care if Cutler throws for 6,000 yards every season. If we dont get to the playoffs it doesnt ****ing matter what he does. Thats my point.


:Broncos:

with the worst defense in football and no running game, Jay is not exactly going to be able to pull out 10-6 or better seasons that get us into the playoffs out of his ass. it was a ****ing miracle he got this team to 8-8 last year.

name 5 other QB's who could have done that last year with absolutely no help.

also, for the moronic people here, wins and losses are a team stat, and Jay is basically a team of himself, Marshall, Royal and nothing else. get him some help and not only will you get the stats, but also the wins.

and i don't even mean give him Steelers defense type of help. i am talking mediore defensive help, and a running game that needs to be acounted for, and he is undoubtedly an elite QB in this league. and as far as i am concerned the guy is already top 5 in the league with no help.

OABB
03-22-2009, 01:39 AM
I want WINS. I dont care about stats. I liked Plummer because HE WON, I liked Elway because HE WON. I dont care if Cutler throws for 6,000 yards every season. If we dont get to the playoffs it doesnt ****ing matter what he does. Thats my point.


:Broncos:

you are the same guy that is blaming Obama for the economy too, so what you value doesn't really matter.

It's obvious you can turn a blind eye from years of history and focus on one little spotlighted section to draw your entire world view from...

ready...here's a quick lesson on how football works.

you see there are 22 positions total on a "team".

11 guys on offense, and 11 guys on defense.

In order for a teeam to win, all 22 guys have to perform well.

you see, this isn't tennis, this is football and you can't judge a qb by wins.

otherwise, Archie manning is one of the worst qb's of all time.

spdirty
03-22-2009, 01:39 AM
I want WINS. I dont care about stats. I liked Plummer because HE WON, I liked Elway because HE WON. I dont care if Cutler throws for 6,000 yards every season. If we dont get to the playoffs it doesnt ****ing matter what he does. Thats my point.


:Broncos:



With Plummer, we won DESPITE him. With Cutler, we got to 8 wins mostly BECAUSE of him.

Trade Cutler and just see how many wins we get next year.

OABB
03-22-2009, 01:42 AM
I am playing the worlds tiniest violin for Jay. Elway did much more with much less.

:Broncos:
ELWAY IS THE GREATEST QB OF ALL TIME! FOR CHISTSAKES! ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS?

The stupidity of some of you people is astounding!


How can you say that with a straight face as if it is some knock on Jay?

christ!

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 01:43 AM
he also had a dude by the name of Edgerin James helping him carry the load. and their defense while not spectacular didn't suck every week. they had ups and downs and performed well some weeks and bad other weeks.

Jay is alone, and we know every week we are going to see the worst defense in football.

... and another Pro Bowler by the name of Marvin Harrison...

Archer81
03-22-2009, 01:45 AM
you are the same guy that is blaming Obama for the economy too, so what you value doesn't really matter.

It's obvious you can turn a blind eye from years of history and focus on one little spotlighted section to draw your entire world view from...

ready...here's a quick lesson on how football works.

you see there are 22 positions total on a "team".

11 guys on offense, and 11 guys on defense.

In order for a teeam to win, all 22 guys have to perform well.

you see, this isn't tennis, this is football and you can't judge a qb by wins.

otherwise, Archie manning is one of the worst qb's of all time.


Just to be clear. I dont have a valid opinion on football because I disagree with obama politically?

And yes, you judge QBs by wins.

:Broncos:

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 01:48 AM
Just to be clear. I dont have a valid opinion on football because I disagree with obama politically?

And yes, you judge QBs by wins.

:Broncos:

No. You judge teams by wins because football is a team; not an individual sport.

OABB
03-22-2009, 01:48 AM
Just to be clear. I dont have a valid opinion on football because I disagree with obama politically?

And yes, you judge QBs by wins.

:Broncos:

No, you don't have a valid opinion period because you are stupid.

'disagreeing' with Obama, is not the same as having a picture that blames him for the stock market crashing, when the entire world knows he inherited a "troubled" economy and hasn't been in charge too long.


like how you would judge a young qb with 37 games played against the G.O.A.T.

you see, your frame of reference, and the way in which you reason, is the way in which a moron reasons.


And only kids judge a Qb solely by wins. It's a part of the whole picture, but not the whole picture.

Archer81
03-22-2009, 01:50 AM
with the worst defense in football and no running game, Jay is not exactly going to be able to pull out 10-6 or better seasons that get us into the playoffs out of his ass. it was a ****ing miracle he got this team to 8-8 last year.

name 5 other QB's who could have done that last year with absolutely no help.

also, for the moronic people here, wins and losses are a team stat, and Jay is basically a team of himself, Marshall, Royal and nothing else. get him some help and not only will you get the stats, but also the wins.

and i don't even mean give him Steelers defense type of help. i am talking mediore defensive help, and a running game that needs to be acounted for, and he is undoubtedly an elite QB in this league. and as far as i am concerned the guy is already top 5 in the league with no help.


You know I actually looked it up the first 3 seasons for Elway and Cutler, and amazingly, they are the similar with defensive points allowed and rankings. In fact, the broncos defense averaged a little worse between 83-85 then 2006-2008. The difference, it seems is that Elway did not have the best offensive line in football in front of him, nor 2 probowl caliber receivers or an entire stable of running backs. To characterize Jay as alone is not honest, because he is not.

Dont misunderstand me. I want Cutler here. He will win a lombardi here with McDaniels at HC. But at this exact juncture in time, he is not worth an extension that pays him 45 mil in guarantees. He is not there yet.

:Broncos:

chrisp
03-22-2009, 01:57 AM
Am I the only person who is genuinely undecided about this?

on the 'pro Cutler' side:

He has amazing arm strength
he can make throws other QBs can only dream of
He is young with bags of potential
He had no defence whatsoever last year..

on the anti-Cutler side:

He has a good offense around him, including, last year, one of the best pass-protecting offensive lines in the league
He hasn't won anything yet - he hasn't even has a winning season
He sometimes makes throws he just shouldn't make - and often makes key mistakes at key times

I'm genuinely torn: its a team game, and a QB on their own won't win you anything, on the other hand I've watched good teams flounder in the playoffs becuase they just couldn't get a QB (like the Steelers before Big Ben). I used to feel smug that that was one thing that wouldn't have to worry us, now we may find we have a hole there...

What I am decided on, however, is that this is ALL Jay. I just don't buy that McDaniels 'mis-handled' the situation, Jay has taken against him and his system from day one and WANTS to be traded. In that situation it doesn't matter if he IS a genuine franchise QB or not - if he doesn't want to play for you, he isn't worth s**t to your team. So in that sense, it may not matter what's best for the Broncos - if he's determined to go we just need to make sure that we get good value for him - as long as we do, then I'm happy that we're making the best out of a bad situation.

So will the trade be what the Herschel Walker deal was for Dallas, or will it turn out to be what the Elway trade was for Indy? Only time will tell....

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 02:00 AM
I'm only gonna say this once: Please keep the politics on the WRP forum....

Archer81
03-22-2009, 02:03 AM
No, you don't have a valid opinion period because you are stupid.

'disagreeing' with Obama, is not the same as having a picture that blames him for the stock market crashing, when the entire world knows he inherited a "troubled" economy and hasn't been in charge too long.


like how you would judge a young qb with 37 games played against the G.O.A.T.

you see, your frame of reference, and the way in which you reason, is the way in which a moron reasons.


And only kids judge a Qb solely by wins. It's a part of the whole picture, but not the whole picture.


In Elways first 37 games, Broncos had 3 winning seasons and a playoff appearance. Because WINS matter. If the best you can come up with is to call me stupid because I disagree with you about a game, then I feel sorry for everyone who deals with you in real life.

:Broncos:

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:05 AM
You know I actually looked it up the first 3 seasons for Elway and Cutler, and amazingly, they are the similar with defensive points allowed and rankings. In fact, the broncos defense averaged a little worse between 83-85 then 2006-2008. The difference, it seems is that Elway did not have the best offensive line in football in front of him, nor 2 probowl caliber receivers or an entire stable of running backs. To characterize Jay as alone is not honest, because he is not.

Dont misunderstand me. I want Cutler here. He will win a lombardi here with McDaniels at HC. But at this exact juncture in time, he is not worth an extension that pays him 45 mil in guarantees. He is not there yet.

:Broncos:

he is better than Tony Romo and Tony got a major contract a couple years ago. so yes a 25 year old pro bowler who has only began to tap his potential is worth a big deal.

entire stable of running backs, are you ****ing kidding me. i can find a bum on the street with the same amount of talent as all of the backs we had(excluding Hillis and Pittman)

also, Elway had defenses ranked in the top half of the league his 1st 3 years. jay is on an island with a couple offensive weapons, none of which are RBs and no defense at all.

also, i would bet my left nut we don't get to a super bowl let alone win one under the coaching of McDaniels with or without Jay

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:07 AM
Am I the only person who is genuinely undecided about this?

on the 'pro Cutler' side:

He has amazing arm strength
he can make throws other QBs can only dream of
He is young with bags of potential
He had no defence whatsoever last year..

on the anti-Cutler side:

He has a good offense around him, including, last year, one of the best pass-protecting offensive lines in the league
He hasn't won anything yet - he hasn't even has a winning season
He sometimes makes throws he just shouldn't make - and often makes key mistakes at key times

I'm genuinely torn: its a team game, and a QB on their own won't win you anything, on the other hand I've watched good teams flounder in the playoffs becuase they just couldn't get a QB (like the Steelers before Big Ben). I used to feel smug that that was one thing that wouldn't have to worry us, now we may find we have a hole there...

What I am decided on, however, is that this is ALL Jay. I just don't buy that McDaniels 'mis-handled' the situation, Jay has taken against him and his system from day one and WANTS to be traded. In that situation it doesn't matter if he IS a genuine franchise QB or not - if he doesn't want to play for you, he isn't worth s**t to your team. So in that sense, it may not matter what's best for the Broncos - if he's determined to go we just need to make sure that we get good value for him - as long as we do, then I'm happy that we're making the best out of a bad situation.

So will the trade be what the Herschel Walker deal was for Dallas, or will it turn out to be what the Elway trade was for Indy? Only time will tell....

it will be the Elway trade and we will be looking for a replacement for years. it took Mike Shanahan, one of the greatest offensive minds in NFL history almost a decade and 3 different attempts to find the guy, and i doubt any other HC will find a replacement any quicker than he did.

BMarsh615
03-22-2009, 02:09 AM
(Better stats in bold)

Cutler's Broncos QB Rating: 87
Plummer's Broncos QB Rating: 84

Cutler TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1.45
Plummer TD/INT Ratio as a Bronco: 1:51

(Plummer average passes per game: 27.0
Cutler average passes per game: 29.7)

Plummer fumbles per-game: 0.13
Cutler fumbles per-game: 0.21

Cutler saked per game: 1.37
Plummer sacked per game: 1.16

Cutler average yards per completion: 7.4
Plummer average yards per copmlettion: 7.17

So, Plummer threw less INTs per passes thrown, more TDs, was sacked less often per game, fumbled less and won more games per start, while throwing almost an identical number of passes per game, for just a slightly lower yards-per-pass average.

Sorry, come again with the "playing like piss" angle again?

Maybe your "memory" isn't so great after all.

Come on man. You don't have to throw out those stats to know the difference between Cutler and Plummer. Cutler had one of the most injury riddled offensive lines in 2007.

Plummer had a pretty good line and Mike Anderson and Clinton Portis. We played much differently with Plummer than we did with Cutler. Plummer was never really asked to win us games, we ran the ball and bootlegged all day with Plummer.

Shanahan never gave Plummer the reigns like he did with Cutler this season.

OABB
03-22-2009, 02:09 AM
In Elways first 37 games, Broncos had 3 winning seasons and a playoff appearance. Because WINS matter. If the best you can come up with is to call me stupid because I disagree with you about a game, then I feel sorry for everyone who deals with you in real life.

:Broncos:

Wins matter? I never thought about it that way before...hmmmm. you are showing me the error of my ways.

again, you are comparing Cutler to the greatest QB to ever play the game. How do you expect him to stack up?

and how do you not feel like a jackass in doing so?

OABB
03-22-2009, 02:11 AM
also, Elway had defenses ranked in the top half of the league his 1st 3 years.

according to him, Elway had just as bad of a defense...

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:18 AM
those of us who say Jay has done something are generally from the camp of "I have watched football alot, and I understand how the game is played" crowd.

First of all it's "a lot." Alot is not a word. If you're going to get personal with people, you'd better get someone at home to proof-read for you.

As for those who have watched football, I've noticed just the opposite trend here. The longer-tenured Broncos fans on this board that I can see tend to have a neutral to pro-team stance, whereas the newbie types think our franchise future will be made or broken with this kid with a bowl-haircut.

So, I'm not sure where you're getting your stats. Maybe the same place you're getting your grammar.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 02:23 AM
Manning took the Colts to the playoffs in 32 games and had a defense that wasnt exactly stellar.


:Broncos:

Oh, and even with Edgerrin and Marvin... it wasn't until Paid-a-ton's sixth year in the NFL (2003) that the Colts finally won a playoff game (WC against us and Divisional vs the Chefs in Narrowhead) before again choking in the AFCC.

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:24 AM
Come on man. You don't have to throw out those stats to know the difference between Cutler and Plummer. Cutler had one of the most injury riddled offensive lines in 2007.

Plummer had a pretty good line and Mike Anderson and Clinton Portis. We played much differently with Plummer than we did with Cutler. Plummer was never really asked to win us games, we ran the ball and bootlegged all day with Plummer.

Shanahan never gave Plummer the reigns like he did with Cutler this season.

Look, I agree for the most part. I just like riling people up. Cutler is a much more complete QB, physically. The jury is out on a lot of other issues.

That said, Plummer threw 521 times in 04. I'd say that's being given the reigns.

But, Shanahan started figuring out that this was no way to win football games. So, he built a game-plan around ball control, and no surprise... the team got to the AFCCG.

So, while people are going to get caught up in Jake/Jay... the real issue here will be overlooked. That issue is, we had much more success with a COMPLETE TEAM than we did asking some dude to throw the ball 500+ times a year.

Mike Shanahan had a team on the doorstep of a Superbowl, and decided to "blow it up," and go another direction. We've been losers ever since, and it cost him his job.

So, the point in this whole conversation is that it's a little silly to assume that because we DO or DON'T have Jay Cutler, we're in GREAT or BAD shape. We may end up keeping Jay, and struggling mightily for years, or... we may end up going with someone else, but building a COMPLETE team... and having success that way, as many other teams have, including this year's SB champions.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 02:24 AM
First of all it's "a lot." Alot is not a word. If you're going to get personal with people, you'd better get someone at home to proof-read for you.

As for those who have watched football, I've noticed just the opposite trend here. The longer-tenured Broncos fans on this board that I can see tend to have a neutral to pro-team stance, whereas the newbie types think our franchise future will be made or broken with this kid with a bowl-haircut.

So, I'm not sure where you're getting your stats. Maybe the same place you're getting your grammar.

Um... how about "no"?


Oh. That was post #28,000.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:24 AM
according to him, Elway had just as bad of a defense...

then he's reading the stats wrong, because in 84 Elway's defense was ranked i think 2nd in the league and was no lower than 14th in any of the 1st 3 seasons he played.

OABB
03-22-2009, 02:25 AM
First of all it's "a lot." Alot is not a word. If you're going to get personal with people, you'd better get someone at home to proof-read for you.

As for those who have watched football, I've noticed just the opposite trend here. The longer-tenured Broncos fans on this board that I can see tend to have a neutral to pro-team stance, whereas the newbie types think our franchise future will be made or broken with this kid with a bowl-haircut.

So, I'm not sure where you're getting your stats. Maybe the same place you're getting your grammar.

a Grammar nazi now, whose trying to get personal?

Bowl-haircut? you really don't name call either. Flava clown?

you are so above it all Popps. How do you maintain such a cool level-headedness?

I have been watching the broncos every game since 1983. EVERY GAME. I am thirty years old. Are you calling me a newb by the date I registered here on the Mane?

You realize how stupid that is, right?

There is a whole world outside of this website.

And btw, I have a neutral feeling towards this team. You have no idea how I feel.

If you read my poor grammar laden posts, you would see that my problem here is with flava clowns like yourself who are so caught up in a tizzy that they can't think clearly.

OABB
03-22-2009, 02:27 AM
then he's reading the stats wrong, because in 84 Elway's defense was ranked i think 2nd in the league and was no lower than 14th in any of the 1st 3 seasons he played.

really? He seems to be a guy that totally knows his facts. Thanks for the post...


btw. the scoring D(which is the most important) was #9 in 83, #2 in 84, and #13 in 85.


I wonder what our scoring d was ranked these last few years?

#28 in 07, and #30 last year..

hmmm, I can see why he thought they were the same

there is a number 2 and a 3 in both of them.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 02:32 AM
really? He seems to be a guy that totally knows his facts. Thanks for the post...


btw. the scoring D(which is the most important) was #9 in 83, #2 in 84, and #13 in 85.


I wonder what our scoring d was ranked these last few years?

That's very easy to look up. Points-wise, #28 in '07; #30 in '08. Through the Plummer years, they ranked #9 (03), #9 ('04), #3 ('05) and #8 ('06)

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:36 AM
First of all it's "a lot." Alot is not a word. If you're going to get personal with people, you'd better get someone at home to proof-read for you.

As for those who have watched football, I've noticed just the opposite trend here. The longer-tenured Broncos fans on this board that I can see tend to have a neutral to pro-team stance, whereas the newbie types think our franchise future will be made or broken with this kid with a bowl-haircut.

So, I'm not sure where you're getting your stats. Maybe the same place you're getting your grammar.

are you high or just stupid? us "newbie" types that you call us Jay supporters simply realize that while Jay may be acting immature and does make mistakes, that we are much closer to being good with him than we will be with McDaniels blowing everything up and bringing in a far less talented QB to lead the team in a new direction.

this has nothing to do with a certain type of fan, because although we all have differing views on the team currently, only true fans who bleed orange and blue are going to give a damn about the team enough to come onto a team message board in March to discuss the team.

you may think because you are swinging off McDaniels nuts and because he is backed by Bowlen(because Bowlen has no choice but to follow him or be shown as an idiot) that you are more team oriented than us who care more about the guy who has actually contributed and carried this team the last 37 games than we do about a rookie HC who has shown more stupidity than leadership ability thus far in his career and you are wrong about that.

and you have yet to really voice your reasoning behind the Cutler hate you have. you talk **** every day and spout the same crap about Jay needs to be a team guy, but you have no other reasoning in your argument. you are actually worse than the SD or Chiefs fans who come on here to talk, because at least they are objective and bring reasoning to the debates, you are just a stubborn Mel Kiper type.

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:40 AM
a Grammar nazi now, whose trying to get personal?.

Dude, you painted yourself into a corner. If you want to get personal, people will do that with you around here. If you want to keep it to football, we can do it that way, too.


Bowl-haircut? you really don't name call either. Flava clown?.

Jay has a bowl-haircut. He's a kid with a bowl-haircut. Correct.


you are so above it all Popps. How do you maintain such a cool level-headedness?.

Yoga.


I have been watching the broncos every game since 1983. EVERY GAME. I am thirty years old. Are you calling me a newb by the date I registered here on the Mane? .

Congrats. I started watching in 77, but I'm ten years older.

I wasn't calling you a newbie, specifically so much as responding to your dopey assumption that people who think the franchise is doomed without Cutler "have watch football good," or whatever you said.


There is a whole world outside of this website.
.

Fascinating! Will you show me?


And btw, I have a neutral feeling towards this team. You have no idea how I feel.
.

Well, you just told me. So, I sort of do, actually.

(I love the team, by the way. I'm a died in the wool homer, orange-glasses lifer. Nothing neutral about me.)

flava clowns like yourself who are so caught up in a tizzy that they can't think clearly.

If you're going to use Hogan's copyrighted catch-phrases, please educate yourself on what they mean. (And pay him his proper royalty rate.)

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:40 AM
That's very easy to look up. Points-wise, #28 in '07; #30 in '08. Through the Plummer years, they ranked #9 (03), #9 ('04), #3 ('05) and #8 ('06)

and the 06 season can actually be questioned because we began that season on a league record pace for points allowed and were one of the best in the league, and then at around the midway point of the season, right around the time Jay took over the defense actually allowed more points than any other team in the league

but all the people who are anti-Jay are going to put the no playoff appearances on his shoulders instead of where it belongs, on the defense.

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:42 AM
are you high or just stupid?

I'm high on life.


you may think because you are swinging off McDaniels nuts and because he is backed by Bowlen.

No swinging here, sparky. Just speaking the truth. Bowlen's stance was obvious before he came out and said this. (Or, it should have been.)


and you have yet to really voice your reasoning behind the Cutler hate you have. you talk **** every day and spout the same crap about Jay needs to be a team guy, but you have no other reasoning in your argument.

You need "reasoning" as to why our team "leader" needs to be a team guy?

I'm not even sure I know how to approach that one.

Good lord.

Archer81
03-22-2009, 02:48 AM
My mistake. I misread the stat sheet. Crazy.


:Broncos:

OABB
03-22-2009, 02:48 AM
Dude, you painted yourself into a corner. If you want to get personal, people will do that with you around here. If you want to keep it to football, we can do it that way, too.

I wasn't personally offended by your grammar line. I think there is nothing more lame in an internet forum realm than to try and pull that. Frankly, when one does that it shows they are reaching and don't know what else to say.

So, bring it on, I encourage it. If you want some ammo on me to make things personal, educate yourself on me and what I stand for. you've got 1000 or so posts to read if you really want to have some fun.

otherwise stick to the subject at hand and don't be a grammar nazi b****.


I wasn't calling you a newbie, specifically so much as responding to your dopey assumption that people who think the franchise is doomed without Cutler "have watch football good," or whatever you said.


"or whatever you said"...nice. You are a beacon of light here. You don't even read the posts you respond to.

What I said, is that being a b**** is unbecoming on a 77 year old man.

and comparing a three year starter to 10 year vets and hall of famers is really really stupid.

maybe you are getting onset dementia?

Archer81
03-22-2009, 02:53 AM
Wins matter? I never thought about it that way before...hmmmm. you are showing me the error of my ways.

again, you are comparing Cutler to the greatest QB to ever play the game. How do you expect him to stack up?

and how do you not feel like a jackass in doing so?


You want to pay Cutler "Elwayesque" money for far fewer accomplishments then Elway at the same point in their respective careers. I dont believe Jay has earned it yet. And I can only PRAY Cutler turns out half as good as Elway because that means Jay would have grown the **** up.

:Broncos:

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:54 AM
I wasn't personally offended by your grammar line. I think there is nothing more lame in an internet forum medium than to try and pull that.

Actually, there is... as it turns out. That lame thing is for someone to get personal with someone else, when they can hardly write the English language.

So, normally I would agree. Grammar-smack isn't necessary. But, if you want to start poking at people, they'll poke back. If you can't execute simple sentences, that won't be off-limits.

If you want to go back to talking about football, that would be great.


What I said, is that being a b**** is unbecoming on a 77 year old man.


Unbecoming "on" a 77 year old man?

Honestly, man... I can't even make sense out of your posts. I have no idea what you're talking about.


and comparing a three year starter to 10 year vets and hall of famers is really really stupid.

So, you're saying people shouldn't be comparing Cutler's importance to that of John Elway?

Well, we agree on something!

We'll make those comparisons when he wins something.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 02:54 AM
and the 06 season can actually be questioned because we began that season on a league record pace for points allowed and were one of the best in the league, and then at around the midway point of the season, right around the time Jay took over the defense actually allowed more points than any other team in the league

but all the people who are anti-Jay are going to put the no playoff appearances on his shoulders instead of where it belongs, on the defense.

By the time Jay took over, the defense was injury-decimated and that affected their performance. Surely that was Jay's fault though. :P

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:54 AM
You need "reasoning" as to why our team "leader" needs to be a team guy?

I'm not even sure I know how to approach that one.

Good lord.

no i need reasoning why a guy who called himself a homer with orange colored glasses on, no more than 5 posts ago, is such a dick to the best player on the team. you forget Elway was seen as a whiny punk for a long time at the beginning of his career.

Cutler was lied to straight to his face, completely disrespected, and basically called inadequate by the coach you are following blindly. and with all that crap you expect him to want to come in and act like nothing happened. Elway and Reeves hated each other for a decade and it didn't matter. Jay has already said he will be here for all mandatory events, so that isn't leaving the team in a lurch like you seem to think.

also, you say Jay is being a bad team guy, so is McDaniels but you don't see that. he can end this tomorrow and everything would be fine. he can call Jay admit what went down, apologize for basically tossing him under the bus and tell him he is the man here. he can lie about it if he wants, but he should realize he has a better chance of success as a coach with Jay than he will without him.

and not only that, but in a few years whether Jay stays or is traded he is going to cash in as a FA and play somewhere he wants. but if McDaniels gets his wish and Jay is traded and he leads this team to the cellar of the West, he will be never see his name associated with HC vacancies again.

the loss of Jay will hurt this franchise and more than likely kill McDaniels career, while Jay may have to deal with a few seasons in a bad franchise and then cash in as a FA and go where he wants. no matter which way this turns out in the long term Jay will still come out the winner. the sooner Bowlen and McDaniels realize that, the better off the team will be.

yes the NFL is a business but you still have to have a level of respect for the players. so far McDaniels has shown to be a egomaniac with a Napoleon complex who only wants to be surrounded by yes men and former Pats, instead of guys with more talent who may disagree with some of his actions.

OABB
03-22-2009, 02:56 AM
You want to pay Cutler "Elwayesque" money for far fewer accomplishments then Elway at the same point in their respective careers. I dont believe Jay has earned it yet. And I can only PRAY Cutler turns out half as good as Elway because that means Jay would have grown the **** up.

:Broncos:

you are confusing me with someone else. I never ever mentioned money or contracts.

I just need to point out how ridiculous some of you people are being.

I'm not even in the jaymcdgate debate here.

what i am saying is you and popps and apa and heav are all comparing Jay to the greatest quarterbacks of all time to put him down.

this is incredibly unfair, and stupid.

first off, it only makes him look better when you have to compare him to the greatest to ever play to make the point.

Archer81
03-22-2009, 02:57 AM
For point of clarification, I was wrong about PPGA allowed by the defenses in the early 80's and the broncos defenses of 06, 07 and 08. I misread the stat sheet and confused first downs allowed per game for points. NFL.com was my source. Broncos defense overall was ranked 21st in 83, 25th in 84 and 13th in 85. 14th in 06, 19th on 07 and 29th in 08.

:Broncos:

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:57 AM
By the time Jay took over, the defense was injury-decimated and that affected their performance. Surely that was Jay's fault though. :P

i know what you mean, but it is what it is, i guess Jay is just terrible and we will be lucky to unload him and start fresh with someone else.

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:59 AM
no i need reasoning why a guy who called himself a homer with orange colored glasses on, no more than 5 posts ago, is such a dick to the best player on the team. .

He's not the best player on the team, first of all. A healthy Champ Bailey is 10X the football player Jay Cutler is at this stage.

Secondly, I think you may have it wrong. See, Jay Cutler is being a dick to US. Jay Cutler hates you. He wants no part of you.

So, you just have it flipped, bro. I want Jay to be a Bronco and do his job. Jay wants out of here.

Jay=Being a dick
Popps=Wants Jay to be a Bronco.



Cutler was lied to straight to his face,.

Oh, the humanity!


also, you say Jay is being a bad team guy, so is McDaniels but you don't see that. .

Correct, because the coach is doing his job... Jay Cutler is not. (Unless skipping meetings and demanding trades is what you consider good work.)



yes the NFL is a business but you still have to have a level of respect for the players. so far McDaniels has shown to be a egomaniac with a Napoleon complex.

Nah. That's just your opinion.

He's doing his job. His "respect" is to whomever gives him the best chance to win. Notice how much "respect" Al Wilson got when he hurt his neck?

Football is a tough biz. It's not for everyone.

Archer81
03-22-2009, 03:01 AM
you are confusing me with someone else. I never ever mentioned money or contracts.

I just need to point out how ridiculous some of you people are being.

I'm not even in the jaymcdgate debate here.

what i am saying is you and popps and apa and heav are all comparing Jay to the greatest quarterbacks of all time to put him down.

this is incredibly unfair, and stupid.

first off, it only makes him look better when you have to compare him to the greatest to ever play to make the point.


I believe Jay will be one of the greatest of all time...eventually. Tantrums like he is throwing over being not traded and his agent making trade and contract demands is silly. I dont think i am being unfair or stupid to compare Cutler to Elway at the same point in their careers. I dont think he should be paid money for a franchise QB when he has yet to prove he is one. I want him back int he fold so he can prove it. Here, not somewhere else.

:Broncos:

hambone13
03-22-2009, 03:01 AM
Ahhhhh... poor guy. Life's got you all bugaboo, huh?

All that cursing, and you still miss the point.

I don't really care if you liked Jake, and my attitude is great! I'm extremely excited about this team going forward.

The FOUNDATION of my argument is that we are not DOOMED if we have to go another direction at QB. So, contrary to your little outburst, I'm the OPTIMIST here.

If you want negativity, it's plentiful. People are talking about not buying team gear, giving up season tickets, calling the coach a "douche" before he's coached a game, calling us Patriots-west... cheaters, you name it.

But, you're barking up the wrong tree, junior. I'm stoked about this team's future.

There are plenty of piss-poor attitudes... but ya got the wrong guy, bud.

What do you do, that allows you to monitor these posts to the degree that you can respond so rapidly, in so many threads with such driven focus to dismantle anyone's position that is not your own? It would be different if you weren't apparently "shock jock'n" the situation with your arguable, at best, mediocre objectivity. I say this because we all know your position and it does not waiver. Give it a rest, I'll log in as you and make the comments, if you need some help....

The amount of time it must take you to travel around this site and bad mouth any idea that does not represent your own position ought to equate to a new career. Talk to your wife a little more, perhaps check in with your kids, I'm tired of seeing your reoccurring point, constantly regurgitated like calf chow, all over the Mane.

You're drive for JC to perform a self assessment, through evaluation of his own "character" and "team approach" liken yourself to a lesson in humility. It might require a bit of individual time, with yourself. Do you have any idea what that's like? I don't see any evidence of it.

Maybe you do actually "do" some of these things and I'm completely an asshole for even bringing it up, but it must happen in the briefest moments between your posts, nearly 24 hours a day. It baffles me how readily available you are to "maintain your position" with little to no objectivity.

Jay should just love us, he owes us that... he wouldn't be here w/o us. The latter is true, the rest isn't.

OABB
03-22-2009, 03:04 AM
Actually, there is... as it turns out. That lame thing is for someone to get personal with someone else, when they can hardly write the English language.

So, normally I would agree. Grammar-smack isn't necessary. But, if you want to start poking at people, they'll poke back. If you can't execute simple sentences, that won't be off-limits.

so.....****ing....lame.... you are spinning out of control.




Unbecoming "on" a 77 year old man?

Honestly, man... I can't even make sense out of your posts. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Your 77 man, don't you have anything else on me. Shouldn't your many years of experience and mastery of the english language give you some advantage in this argument over me?
come on, try harder.


So, you're saying people shouldn't be comparing Cutler's importance to that of John Elway?
Well, we agree on something!
We'll make those comparisons when he wins something.

You aren't even worth the time. This is like talking to a 13 year old girl. you are just trying to have the last word, and poking fun at "how" I say something while ignoring "what" I am saying.

This is an internet forum. Try and make your points valid and interesting o.k?

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 03:06 AM
i know what you mean, but it is what it is, i guess Jay is just terrible and we will be lucky to unload him and start fresh with someone else.

Interesting is the fact that... before the Bates/Slowik (Cutler is blamed) 2 seasons, the worst the Broncos had ever ranked in "points allowed" was 25th with the '94 Wade Phillips team....we reached a whole new nadir of defensive ineptitude after Coyer was fired....

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 03:09 AM
He's not the best player on the team, first of all. A healthy Champ Bailey is 10X the football player Jay Cutler is at this stage.

Secondly, I think you may have it wrong. See, Jay Cutler is being a dick to US. Jay Cutler hates you. He wants no part of you.

So, you just have it flipped, bro. I want Jay to be a Bronco and do his job. Jay wants out of here.

Jay=Being a dick
Popps=Wants Jay to be a Bronco.




Oh, the humanity!



Correct, because the coach is doing his job... Jay Cutler is not. (Unless skipping meetings and demanding trades is what you consider good work.)




Nah. That's just your opinion.

He's doing his job. His "respect" is to whomever gives him the best chance to win. Notice how much "respect" Al Wilson got when he hurt his neck?

Football is a tough biz. It's not for everyone.

Wrong. Jay wants no part of the Patriot that he believes lied to him.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:10 AM
What do you do, that allows you to monitor these posts to the degree that you can respond so rapidly, in so many threads with such driven focus to dismantle anyone's position that is not your own?

I take awesome pills.

It would be different if you weren't apparently "shock jock'n" the situation with your arguable, at best, mediocre objectivity. .

I'm not claiming to be any more objective than the next person. I have an opinion on this. You clearly must care quite a bit about my opinion because you can't quit quoting me.


The amount of time it must take you to travel around this site and bad mouth any idea that does not represent your own position ought to equate to a new career.

Yea, that 7.6 posts a day really eats up my time. I do type pretty fast.

I like your idea, though. Run it by Taco. Maybe he can put me on salary for having a little fun here. Good idea, man!

Talk to your wife a little more, perhaps check in with your kids.

Ahhh.... and the ultimate resort of the sad, internet douche-bag. Go after people's family. Poor guy. Things must be bad for you.

I won't stoop to your level on attacking people's children, but I will say that you really have some issues to deal with. That's some sad stuff, bro.

OABB
03-22-2009, 03:11 AM
Interesting is the fact that... before the Bates/Slowik (Cutler is blamed) 2 seasons, the worst the Broncos had ever ranked in "points allowed" was 25th with the '94 Wade Phillips team....we reached a whole new nadir of defensive ineptitude after Coyer was fired....

oh and here's the best part...we were 7-9 that year.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 03:12 AM
He's not the best player on the team, first of all. A healthy Champ Bailey is 10X the football player Jay Cutler is at this stage.

for a guy who claims as much NFL knowledge as you do, you should realize the NFL is a what have you done for me lately business. and last year, Champ wasn't even close to being the best player on the team, that honor goes to Cutler.


Secondly, I think you may have it wrong. See, Jay Cutler is being a dick to US. Jay Cutler hates you. He wants no part of you.

So, you just have it flipped, bro. I want Jay to be a Bronco and do his job. Jay wants out of here.

Jay=Being a dick
Popps=Wants Jay to be a Bronco.

why do you continually talk about Jay, like a former girlfriend who broke your heart?
Jay wants no part of McDaniels, he has never said anything about the team or fans, he just wants nothing to do with the Patriots way. Jay wants the respect he has earned for being one of the best players on the team and one of the top QBs in the league. going back to the original point in the what have you done for me lately mindset of the NFL. Cutler has carried this team and pushed money he was owed back a few years to help the team now, he was here for 2 straight weeks, meeting with his new coach learning the new scheme during time he could have spent having a great time on vacation, only to have all that extra work he was putting in be spit back into his face.


Correct, because the coach is doing his job... Jay Cutler is not. (Unless skipping meetings and demanding trades is what you consider good work.)


the coach's main job is to put the team in the best position to win now. every other NFL coach in the league would look at our roster and realize Jay is the best chance this team has, so no he isn't doing his job. he is showing himself to be an inexperienced guy with too much power who is in over his head.

and Cutler skipping a meeting isn't a big deal because it wasn't a mandatory function he had to be at. McDaniels may say it was mandatory but there isn't a damn thing he could have done if the entire team stayed home for that meeting.
also with the strength and conditioning portion of last week being voluntary, that isn't a big deal either. when mandatory camps come along Jay has said he will be there.

and in the NFL, players demand trades all the time, it is the business. and when your coach lays it out that he will trade you in a heartbeat if he gets a deal he likes, why prolong the inevitable. let the idiotic coach dig his grave and have a good time playing for a franchise that wants you.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:12 AM
Wrong. Jay wants no part of the Patriot that he believes lied to him.

That's the problem.

What choice do we have? I'd like to see this resolved as much as you. But, Jay doesn't want to be here.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:14 AM
for a guy who claims as much NFL knowledge as you do, you should realize the NFL is a what have you done for me lately business. and last year, Champ wasn't even close to being the best player on the team, that honor goes to Cutler.ch dig his grave and have a good time playing for a franchise that wants you.

Clady played every bit as well as Cutler, and the Champ reference was clearly referenced to a "healthy" Champ Bailey.


why do you continually talk about Jay, like a former girlfriend who broke your heart? .

I don't. You're thinking of those around here who speak about Jay's "feelings."

I just want the guy to do his job.


and in the NFL, players demand trades all the time, it is the business. and when your coach lays it out that he will trade you in a heartbeat if he gets a deal he likes, why prolong the inevitable. let the idiotic coach dig his grave and have a good time playing for a franchise that wants you.

So, you want Jay to leave? Why are you upset, then? It appears he may.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 03:15 AM
What do you do, that allows you to monitor these posts to the degree that you can respond so rapidly, in so many threads with such driven focus to dismantle anyone's position that is not your own? It would be different if you weren't apparently "shock jock'n" the situation with your arguable, at best, mediocre objectivity. I say this because we all know your position and it does not waiver. Give it a rest, I'll log in as you and make the comments, you won't be lost.

The amount of time it must take you to travel around this site and bad mouth any idea that does not represent your own position ought to equate to a new career. Talk to your wife a little more, perhaps check in with your kids, I'm tired of seeing your reoccurring point, constantly regurgitated like cattle puke all over the Mane. Frankly, I for one am sick of it.

Let's leave family out of it, please. I understand that you don't like his viewpoint; please keep the discussion on that.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 03:18 AM
That's the problem.

What choice do we have? I'd like to see this resolved as much as you. But, Jay doesn't want to be here.

But there's a huge difference between rejecting us fans and rejecting a guy he just met whom he seems pretty convinced is a backstabbing liar....

Hey, what I want is to see the front office do whatever it takes to fix their f*up.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 03:19 AM
Clady played every bit as well as Cutler, and the Champ reference was clearly referenced to a "healthy" Champ Bailey.



I don't. You're thinking of those around here who speak about Jay's "feelings."

I just want the guy to do his job.



So, you want Jay to leave? Why are you upset, then? It appears he may.

you b**** about other people gramatical errors, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension, instead of insulting other people.

now for the less intelligent poster here(Mel "Popps" Kiper) i will explain my post. i was saying with McDaniels being so completely ignorant in this situation, if he gets his wish and Jay is traded, he is digging a grave for the rest of his career, while Jay will be with a team that wanted him bad enough to give up picks and players to get him and if he is unhappy in that situation he will be able to walk after a few years, collect a massive payday and play somewhere he wants, while McDaniels will be looking for work and we will be looking for a new coach and QB to lift this franchise back into respectability

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:20 AM
But there's a huge difference between rejecting us fans and rejecting a guy he just met whom he seems pretty convinced is a backstabbing liar....

Hey, what I want is to see the front office do whatever it takes to fix their f*up.


That's fine, but his actions are hurting his own cause, and the team cause... which hurts the fans.

As Elway said (and couldn't be more right) ... this kid is just getting bad advice. No matter who "started it," Jay could have come out smelling like roses by doing a few simple things. Instead, he's done just exactly what would make it the very worst for both parties.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:22 AM
you b**** about other people gramatical errors, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension, instead of insulting other people.

No, man... he insulted me. I returned serve. Now he's going after children.
So, go ahead and hitch your wagon to that guy. Good decision.


now for the less intelligent poster here(Popps Kiper) i will explain my post. i was saying with McDaniels being so completely ignorant in this situation, if he gets his wish and Jay is traded

My reading comprehension?

Have you read any of the coach's comments? He's made it very clear that he wants Jay in the fold.

Jay wants out.

So, you're building an argument upon a false premise.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 03:25 AM
That's fine, but his actions are hurting his own cause, and the team cause... which hurts the fans.

As Elway said (and couldn't be more right) ... this kid is just getting bad advice. No matter who "started it," Jay could have come out smelling like roses by doing a few simple things. Instead, he's done just exactly what would make it the very worst for both parties.

And the Patriot had no hand in this? His causes are being hurt as well. And so are the interests of the guy who signs the checks.

Jay's already been thrown under the bus by the front office... even if he does the right thing and comes to all the mandatory camps, cyberspace is already filled with bad photoshops of him as a crying child. And messageboard posters waiting impatiently for his very first INT to release a metric buttload of vitriol.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 03:25 AM
No, man... he insulted me. I returned serve. Now he's going after children.
So, go ahead and hitch your wagon to that guy. Good decision.



My reading comprehension?

Have you read any of the coach's comments? He's made it very clear that he wants Jay in the fold.

Jay wants out.

So, you're building an argument upon a false premise.

because he has no other options right now. and if he really wanted Jay he would get in touch with him and end this **** instead of letting it drag on and continue to try and break Jay down into another yes manm that he is surrounding himself with.

you're trying to make the argument that McDaniels has done everything possible to bring Jay back, and Jay is being a stubborn brat ignoring it all.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:28 AM
And the Patriot had no hand in this?

What's "The Patriot?"

And the Patriot had no hand in this? His causes are being hurt as well. And so are the interests of the guy who signs the checks.

Jay's already been thrown under the bus by the front office... even if he does the right thing and comes to all the mandatory camps, cyberspace is already filled with bad photoshops of him as a crying child. And messageboard posters waiting impatiently for his very first INT to release a metric buttload of vitriol.

Donovan McNabb has taken the Eagles to the Superbowl. He's been a team-leader for a decade. He was benched during a playoff run... in PHILLY, of all places. (You think Jay catches a few jabs here, try this act in Philly!)

McNabb manned-up and took his team on a very strong late-season run into the playoffs, showing his true colors.

So, don't tell me Jay doesn't have an option here. He's just choosing the one he wants to choose.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:29 AM
because he has no other options right now. and if he really wanted Jay he would get in touch with him

He's said on multiple occasions that he wants to meet with him. He already tried this meeting once, and Jay brought his agent. C'mon, man... how much can get done personally with an agent in the room?

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 03:32 AM
He's said on multiple occasions that he wants to meet with him. He already tried this meeting once, and Jay brought his agent. C'mon, man... how much can get done personally with an agent in the room?

Bowlen has a Team Jet. McDaniels can fly his stupid ass right out to Tennessee and show he is being serious. he is expecting Jay, the person who was wronged in this scenario to be the one to come crawling back, that isn;t going to happen, it is time for McDaniels to use his ****ing head.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 03:37 AM
What's "The Patriot?"

You know. Your hero... the guy sitting in Reeves' old chair.

Donovan McNabb has taken the Eagles to the Superbowl. He's been a team-leader for a decade. He was benched during a playoff run... in PHILLY, of all places. (You think Jay catches a few jabs here, try this act in Philly!)

McNabb manned-up and took his team on a very strong late-season run into the playoffs, showing his true colors.

So, don't tell me Jay doesn't have an option here. He's just choosing the one he wants to choose.

And so is the Patriot...

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 03:39 AM
He's said on multiple occasions that he wants to meet with him. He already tried this meeting once, and Jay brought his agent. C'mon, man... how much can get done personally with an agent in the room?

He brought his agent because he doesn't trust the guy that he thinks backstabbed him and lied about doing it.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:40 AM
He brought his agent because he doesn't trust the guy that he thinks backstabbed him and lied about doing it.

O.K... again, I'm just trying to look for a solution, here.

Do you have one?

Jay wants out of town and seems to have no interest in resolving this. At what point are fans allowed to begin to question their loyalty to him?

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:41 AM
You know. Your hero... the guy sitting in Reeves' old chair.

And so is the Patriot...

Really, Blue?

Whatever.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 03:46 AM
O.K... again, I'm just trying to look for a solution, here.

Do you have one?

Jay wants out of town and seems to have no interest in resolving this. At what point are fans allowed to begin to question their loyalty to him?

Yes. The individual who caused all this mess needs to do something he's probably incapable of... go to the offended party and offer a sincere apology. It's really not that hard to do and one can avoid all kinds of problems by doing it the minute it becomes apparent that a problem has come up. It should have been done weeks ago, IMO... and the delay hasn't helped the situation.

hambone13
03-22-2009, 03:51 AM
I take awesome pills.



I'm not claiming to be any more objective than the next person. I have an opinion on this. You clearly must care quite a bit about my opinion because you can't quit quoting me.



Yea, that 7.6 posts a day really eats up my time. I do type pretty fast.

I like your idea, though. Run it by Taco. Maybe he can put me on salary for having a little fun here. Good idea, man!



Ahhh.... and the ultimate resort of the sad, internet douche-bag. Go after people's family. Poor guy. Things must be bad for you.

I won't stoop to your level on attacking people's children, but I will say that you really have some issues to deal with. That's some sad stuff, bro.

Yeah, I resorted to douche-bag comments. I can say it. I'll take care of my demons, you take care of yours.

As much as you would like to believe that you're a "voice of reason", you're not. You have the capacity and the opportunity but you don't take it. You just can't see that there is another angle to this thing that maybe you don't understand completely. You have it figured out though....

Popps speaks again.....SHoCKeR....sometimes stooping is your only choice.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 04:04 AM
Yeah, I resorted to douche-bag comments. I can say it. I'll take care of my demons, you take care of yours.

As much as you would like to believe that you're a "voice of reason", you're not. You have the capacity and the opportunity but you don't take it. You just can't see that there is another angle to this thing that maybe you don't understand completely. You have it figured out though....

Popps speaks again.....SHoCKeR....sometimes stooping is your only choice.

Um...but bringing family into the discussion is not just a "d-bag comment"; it's against OrangeMane rules and grounds for a temporary ban. I don't think you were aware of that, and that's the only reason the ban-hammer hasn't fallen yet. I'd suggest an apology....

hambone13
03-22-2009, 04:08 AM
Um...but bringing family into the discussion is not just a "d-bag comment"; it's against OrangeMane rules and grounds for a temporary ban. I don't think you were aware of that, and that's the only reason the ban-hammer hasn't fallen yet. I'd suggest an apology....

Popps. I apologize. That was not appropriate. I was completely out of line.

hambone13
03-22-2009, 04:13 AM
Popps. I apologize. That was not appropriate. I was completely out of line.

I do completely feel apologetic about making this post. It was an awful thing to say and is completely unacceptable. Lines were crossed and I was wrong to assume it was acceptable.

I understand if I need to be punished for my actions. I stand before The Mane to accept my punishment with a whole heart.

WABronco
03-22-2009, 04:37 AM
Well, considering Jay can't even keep himself from averting and/or rolling his eyes at any adverse question, I'll go ahead and say that no, a presser in bloodthirsty Philly would not go well after a poor game.

hambone13
03-22-2009, 04:51 AM
Well, considering Jay can't even keep himself from averting and/or rolling his eyes at any adverse question, I'll go ahead and say that no, a presser in bloodthirsty Philly would not go well after a poor game.

When you show the capacity of JC's QB skills in conjunction with your own masterful PR skills maybe you'll have a position. During the interim, you're an arm chair QB and he's got a potential multi-million dollar contract that he's trying to resolve based on previous management.

I'm sorry all of you JC haters don't like it but that sort of change, alters your contract. We're not battling the morality of sweat mines in NE Malaysia.

hambone13
03-22-2009, 05:00 AM
[QUOTE=WABronco;2347482] Considering Jay can't even keep himself from averting and/or rolling his eyes at any adverse question, I'll go ahead and say that no, a presser in bloodthirsty Philly would not go well after a poor game.[/QUOTE

Yeah, Philly is one of the few places that can be likened to the Broncos. That doesn't make them right. Frankly, it's a great way to say in short hand, "You're only as good as your last play or comment...."I would think he wouldn't want to be there either.

If he doesn't end up in Denver, I hope he ends up in Chicago. They'll all get what they want.......and it might be scary...

Broncoman13
03-22-2009, 05:27 AM
Ahhhh.... so, Clinton Portis made Jay fumble more often, huh.

Erik Pears made Jay throw more INTs?

Jay playing behind the best Bronco line (this year) since the late 90s doesn't count for anything?

Royal, Marshall, Stokley are worse than an aging Rod Smith and Ashley Lelie?


But, let's just go with your notion that Jay is just a poor guy on a bad team.... and Jake is an oaf with no QB talents... what do the results of both of their respective teams tell you?

You're the one that decided to compare numbers... YOU WENT THERE!

To compare Cutler to Plummer is as stupid as comparing Cutler to Elway.

Now, about that therapy! ;D

Broncoman13
03-22-2009, 05:34 AM
What do you do, that allows you to monitor these posts to the degree that you can respond so rapidly, in so many threads with such driven focus to dismantle anyone's position that is not your own? It would be different if you weren't apparently "shock jock'n" the situation with your arguable, at best, mediocre objectivity. I say this because we all know your position and it does not waiver. Give it a rest, I'll log in as you and make the comments, if you need some help....

The amount of time it must take you to travel around this site and bad mouth any idea that does not represent your own position ought to equate to a new career. Talk to your wife a little more, perhaps check in with your kids, I'm tired of seeing your reoccurring point, constantly regurgitated like calf chow, all over the Mane.

You're drive for JC to perform a self assessment, through evaluation of his own "character" and "team approach" liken yourself to a lesson in humility. It might require a bit of individual time, with yourself. Do you have any idea what that's like? I don't see any evidence of it.

Maybe you do actually "do" some of these things and I'm completely an a-hole for even bringing it up, but it must happen in the briefest moments between your posts, nearly 24 hours a day. It baffles me how readily available you are to "maintain your position" with little to no objectivity.

Jay should just love us, he owes us that... he wouldn't be here w/o us. The latter is true, the rest isn't.

Not cool dude... You have no idea what his family situation is like and you're taking a dig at him. Popps could be the world's best dad and husband for all you know. Just b/c he has a jacked up view on all things Cutler right now doesn't mean he is a complete idiot douchebag McMoron! I agree with Blue, leave the family out of it! If I were you, I'd offer an apology and then bag on him some more about Cutler.

hambone13
03-22-2009, 05:56 AM
Not cool dude... You have no idea what his family situation is like and you're taking a dig at him. Popps could be the world's best dad and husband for all you know. Just b/c he has a jacked up view on all things Cutler right now doesn't mean he is a complete idiot douchebag McMoron! I agree with Blue, leave the family out of it! If I were you, I'd offer an apology and then bag on him some more about Cutler.

I've done so. Please read up. You're right. It was an awful mistake.....

Taco John
03-22-2009, 11:10 AM
I genuinely suspect that if the Mane had been in existence back when Reeves tried to trade Elway to the Redskins, Popps would have been defending his right to do it. And minimizing Elway's accomplishments to that date....

Well, maybe... Probably...

The only problem with that is that Elway didn't take Jake Plummer's job... ;)

BroncoInferno
03-22-2009, 11:18 AM
Yes. The individual who caused all this mess needs to do something he's probably incapable of... go to the offended party and offer a sincere apology. It's really not that hard to do and one can avoid all kinds of problems by doing it the minute it becomes apparent that a problem has come up. It should have been done weeks ago, IMO... and the delay hasn't helped the situation.

Yep, you are right. Jay Cutler needs to do precisely what you prescribe above, since he is the person who caused this mess. McDaniels version of events has been CONFIRMED BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT by Belichek, meaning that McDaniels never lied about anything, which is what Cutler seems to be smarting over. Cutler needs to apologize to the front office and his teammates for needlessly prolonging this thing and causing a distraction. Then, he needs to get back to work.

BroncoInferno
03-22-2009, 11:20 AM
I genuinely suspect that if the Mane had been in existence back when Reeves tried to trade Elway to the Redskins, Popps would have been defending his right to do it. And minimizing Elway's accomplishments to that date....

Elway had carried three teams to the Super Bowl on his back at that point. Hardly comparable to guy yet to even make the playoffs.

lex
03-22-2009, 11:22 AM
Elway had carried three teams to the Super Bowl on his back at that point. Hardly comparable to guy yet to even make the playoffs.

Reeves had been the coach on all of those teams though. In this case both Cutler and McDaniels are much more green, with the difference being, McDaniels hasnt been a HC before, while Cutler has been a pro bowl QB.

BroncoInferno
03-22-2009, 11:24 AM
He brought his agent because he doesn't trust the guy that he thinks backstabbed him and lied about doing it.

Does it make no difference to you that it has now been CONFIRMED that Jay is wrong about being lied to?

Oh, I know, I know...Belichek is obviously himself lying...nevermind the fact that he benefits in no way by doing so.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-22-2009, 11:28 AM
Well, maybe... Probably...

The only problem with that is that Elway didn't take Jake Plummer's job... ;)

He has been proven right over the long run though. Anything Jay has done in the NFL has paled in comparison to Plummer's success in the League since he was benched. I think everyone agrees that it was a terrible move, and if Shanny had to do it all over again, he'd have probably stuck with 18 ppg Jake Plummer. Just imagine how awesome the team would have been the past 2 seasons with Jake under center, we'd all be talking about the Broncos chances to be the first team to win 3 straight Super Bowls.

Popps called his shot and was right, he should put it in his sig to remind everyone about it everytime he posts.

Taco John
03-22-2009, 11:30 AM
Does it make no difference to you that it has now been CONFIRMED that Jay is wrong about being lied to?

Oh, I know, I know...Belichek is obviously himself lying...nevermind the fact that he benefits in no way by doing so.



Has it been CONFIRMED that talks between the Broncos and the Lions or the Bucs didn't happen?

broncofan2438
03-22-2009, 11:31 AM
Stupid article

BroncoInferno
03-22-2009, 11:39 AM
Has it been CONFIRMED that talks between the Broncos and the Lions or the Bucs didn't happen?

McDaniels said from the beginning that there were proposals made by other teams, so I don't see the relevance.

maher_tyler
03-22-2009, 11:42 AM
Look, and before anyone gets into the Cutler/Plummer wars... that's not the point. Jay has more physical talent than Jake, obviously.

But, this idea that we'll be incapable of winning another game for the rest of the franchise existence if we don't have Cutler is idiotic.

You can see a big divide out there in opinion over how much he's worth. A lot of people are asking if they should mortgage their futures for the guy. As the article points out, you can blame everything on everyone else if you want... but if he's a true franchise QB, why did his numbers look so awful in the last three games, when we needed production the most? Certainly, he was in a rough spot, but he also made a lot of terrible throws.

So, again.... I'd still like to see him back in Denver. His upside potential is still intriguing, but you folks talking about this guy like he's done something really need a ****ing reality check.

In all of his best games..and obviously the games we won..as a team we ran for over 100 yards...when you have 7 RB's on IR its hard to win games and have a consistant run game..not to mention the so called Defense has been pathetic the last 2 years..cut the guy some slack.

lex
03-22-2009, 12:00 PM
McDaniels said from the beginning that there were proposals made by other teams, so I don't see the relevance.


What proof do you have that this was the case?

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 12:13 PM
O.K... again, I'm just trying to look for a solution, here.

Do you have one?

Jay wants out of town and seems to have no interest in resolving this. At what point are fans allowed to begin to question their loyalty to him?

the ball is in McDaniels court. it is up to him how he wants this to end.

jay was wronged and has no reason to believe a thing McDaniels says, because as he has already shown, his words have no meaning. Jay realizes that in all likelihood there is a good chance he will be traded at some point, be it now, or in a year. He doesn't want to wait for the inevitable. he wants a sign of good faith that says he is here to stay, and so far all McDaniels tells him, is that he is replaceable.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 12:20 PM
Yes. The individual who caused all this mess needs to do something he's probably incapable of... go to the offended party and offer a sincere apology. It's really not that hard to do and one can avoid all kinds of problems by doing it the minute it becomes apparent that a problem has come up. It should have been done weeks ago, IMO... and the delay hasn't helped the situation.

he can probably lie about it too just to end this. everyone has at some point been forced to apologize for something they disagree with. but we have all put on the sorry face, and said the words to fix a situation.

HEAV
03-22-2009, 12:26 PM
Heav, are you purposely wanting Denver to get rid of Cutler? I'm dissapointed in his actions in regards to the trade, but I dont want him gone. What he do to you? Run over your cat or something?


:Broncos:


Do I want him as a Bronco? Yes, but only if he wants to be a Bronco. I'd also like to see him grow up and stop the prima-donna crap. I'd prefer to have Cutler the football player and Cutler the spoiled child seperated.

I've said it over and over on here that Jay has skills. It's the remainder of the package that I'm sick of. Jay is part of puzzle, he's not the puzzle as a whole.

As a leader he shouldn't be acting like a child and making this about him.

McDaniels has challenge him with the attempted trade, basically saying "Prove to me that you can be just as good as Brady or successfull as Cassel."

Yet Jay doesn't want the challenge, he seems to want it handed to him,he wants promised that he's the man. Instead of going out there and showing McDaniels that he is the man and that even thinking about trading him was insane.

Earn the respect, accept the challenge and show how a leader handles himself when other think he can't.

Popps
03-22-2009, 12:30 PM
To compare Cutler to Plummer is as stupid as comparing Cutler to Elway.


I know, Jay has a long way to go. :sunshine:


Now, about that therapy! ;D

This place IS therapy. Free!

Popps
03-22-2009, 12:32 PM
Do I want him as a Bronco? Yes, but only if he wants to be a Bronco. I'd also like to see him grow up and stop the prima-donna crap. I'd prefer to have Cutler the football player and Cutler the spoiled child seperated.t.

When Jay gets in the (good) zone, he's almost unstoppable. I'm with you, I'd love to see him WANT to return.

Taco was mentioning this in another thread. It'll be tough to totally mend fences. That's going to be a big obstacle. I hope it works out.

Still, if it doesn't... I'm not in the "it's a crisis" camp. The only way I see this turning crisis-like is if we don't get any value back in the trade.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 12:44 PM
He has been proven right over the long run though. Anything Jay has done in the NFL has paled in comparison to Plummer's success in the League since he was benched. I think everyone agrees that it was a terrible move, and if Shanny had to do it all over again, he'd have probably stuck with 18 ppg Jake Plummer. Just imagine how awesome the team would have been the past 2 seasons with Jake under center, we'd all be talking about the Broncos chances to be the first team to win 3 straight Super Bowls.

Popps called his shot and was right, he should put it in his sig to remind everyone about it everytime he posts.

You simply cannot be serious about this... the Broncos were going nowhere near the SB with the defense that ranked 28th...and then 30th... in points given up the last 2 seasons.

HEAV
03-22-2009, 12:45 PM
When Jay gets in the (good) zone, he's almost unstoppable. I'm with you, I'd love to see him WANT to return.

Taco was mentioning this in another thread. It'll be tough to totally mend fences. That's going to be a big obstacle. I hope it works out.

Still, if it doesn't... I'm not in the "it's a crisis" camp. The only way I see this turning crisis-like is if we don't get any value back in the trade.


I really started to like the kid. But I still had issue with the on-field body language and how he called out Stoke and Royal for not making great catchs on his high or hard thrown passes.

I want to see he stand tall after a Int and not shrug his shoulders and walk off the field wit his head down.

I want to see Jay become a leader!

I don't think handing this kid everything from promises,new deals, control is the wise thing to do.

Let Jay earn it! The Shanny did it this way and I earn it with him mentality isn't going to work. Also if he thinks the grass is going to be greener on the other side and he canact liek this in another franchise...well he's in for a wakeup call.

I want Jay to be here and take on McDaniels challenge.

Only a few players/quarterbacks have pull in a franchise and Jay hasn't earned that type of pull yet.


But Jay hasn't shown the want to take on the challenge and his actions (not to mention words) state he doesn't want to be a Bronco.

If that's the case, then it's time to move on sadly.

HEAV
03-22-2009, 12:49 PM
You simply cannot be serious about this... the Broncos were going nowhere near the SB with the defense that ranked 28th...and then 30th... in points given up the last 2 seasons.

Herc was being sarcastic... Wow you are dense. :welcome:

gyldenlove
03-22-2009, 01:18 PM
Do I want him as a Bronco? Yes, but only if he wants to be a Bronco. I'd also like to see him grow up and stop the prima-donna crap. I'd prefer to have Cutler the football player and Cutler the spoiled child seperated.

I've said it over and over on here that Jay has skills. It's the remainder of the package that I'm sick of. Jay is part of puzzle, he's not the puzzle as a whole.

As a leader he shouldn't be acting like a child and making this about him.

McDaniels has challenge him with the attempted trade, basically saying "Prove to me that you can be just as good as Brady or successfull as Cassel."

Yet Jay doesn't want the challenge, he seems to want it handed to him,he wants promised that he's the man. Instead of going out there and showing McDaniels that he is the man and that even thinking about trading him was insane.

Earn the respect, accept the challenge and show how a leader handles himself when other think he can't.

That is just the worst pile of horse crap I have ever seen.

Here is what Mcdaniels trying to trade Cutler says: "I don't like you and I don't trust you. I know I said in the interviews that we would base the offense around you, but I was lying to get the job."

I still don't get the people who say that Cutler has to prove himself to Mcdaniels. How many games have Mcdaniels won as a head coach at any level? When that number is greater than the number of games Cutler has won at any level, I will agree that Cutler has to prove himself. Hell, I will do one better, when the number of games Mcdaniels has won without Cutler is greater than the number of pro bowls Cutler has gone to without Mcdaniels, I will say Cutler has to prove himself.

Right now, we have a HC who has never achieved anything on his own, he comes from a background with one of the worst track records in the books ("The Belichick coaching tree", or as it more accurately could be called: "The tree of epic fail"), he was hired because he agreed to base the offense on Cutler and the first thing he does is makes a full 180 and tries to trade Cutler. I am not saying Mcdaniels will be a bad HC, but as of right now he has proved absolutely nothing. Unfortunately being a rookie he was outsmarted by just about everybody in the room and word of his mistake got out, and instead of growing a pair and fessing up and apologizing, he turned it into a power play that is keeping the most important player on the team away from voluntary workouts.

But to get back to the article, what a joke. If you give a chimp a type writer and infinite time he will eventually type out the complete works of Shakespeare, I guess in this case he just typed out a random article for a Jersey paper.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 01:25 PM
Herc was being sarcastic... Wow you are dense. :welcome:

Ya think? ???

Archer81
03-22-2009, 01:26 PM
And now for something completely different...

mod note: probably NSFW... please post boob pictures in the proper forum.
http://tinyurl.com/crcye4\


:Broncos:

Popps
03-22-2009, 01:28 PM
That is just the worst pile of horse crap I have ever seen.

Here is what Mcdaniels trying to trade Cutler says: "I don't like you and I don't trust you.

Or, "I've developed a top notch QB in this very system and he's been made available to me, so I did my job and considered all options to improve the Denver Broncos."


I still don't get the people who say that Cutler has to prove himself to Mcdaniels. How many games have Mcdaniels won as a head coach at any level? .


McDaniels is Cutler's boss. He's his coach. Of COURES Jay has to prove himself to him. Are you kidding? How many Superbowls had Tomlin won? How many GAMES? Yet, those pros in Pittsburgh proved themselves to the young head coach.

Of course Jay has to prove himself. All of the players do. That's as basic as it gets.

he was hired because he agreed to base the offense on Cutler .

You have no idea if that's true. Stating it like fact is sort of goofy. I'm sure writers speculated and I'm sure McDaniels said what he had to say publicly.
But, only Bowlen and McDaniels know what really happened at the interviews.

growing a pair and fessing up and apologizing.

You're aiming that at the wrong guy.

Popps
03-22-2009, 01:32 PM
He has been proven right over the long run though. Anything Jay has done in the NFL has paled in comparison to Plummer's success in the League since he was benched. I think everyone agrees that it was a terrible move, and if Shanny had to do it all over again, he'd have probably stuck with 18 ppg Jake Plummer. Just imagine how awesome the team would have been the past 2 seasons with Jake under center, we'd all be talking about the Broncos chances to be the first team to win 3 straight Super Bowls.

Popps called his shot and was right, he should put it in his sig to remind everyone about it everytime he posts.

Herc, you're usually a smart guy. Somewhat disappointing to see you be so obtuse on the issue.

I actually agreed with the Plummer benching. (Well for disclosure, I thought it should have been done against K.C. if we wanted to save the season.)

The team did go to hell once we put Jay in, but it wasn't because of Jay. My entire stance with regards to the Jay/Jake arguments has always been that we needed to build a complete team. People around here insisted it was as simple as a QB-swap. Well, you see where that got us.

It was about the defense with me, Herc. It has been for a decade. You're usually an insightful guy. I'm surprised that point didn't settle in with you.

Popps
03-22-2009, 01:34 PM
You simply cannot be serious about this... the Broncos were going nowhere near the SB with the defense that ranked 28th...and then 30th... in points given up the last 2 seasons.

Funny to hear people like yourself finally talking about defense.

I couldn't pay someone to have a conversation about defense around here a few years ago. It was all about swapping QBs. That was the ticket!

barryr
03-22-2009, 01:37 PM
Herc, you're usually a smart guy. Somewhat disappointing to see you be so obtuse on the issue.

I actually agreed with the Plummer benching. (Well for disclosure, I thought it should have been done against K.C. if we wanted to save the season.)

The team did go to hell once we put Jay in, but it wasn't because of Jay. My entire stance with regards to the Jay/Jake arguments has always been that we needed to build a complete team. People around here insisted it was as simple as a QB-swap. Well, you see where that got us.

It was about the defense with me, Herc. It has been for a decade. You're usually an insightful guy. I'm surprised that point didn't settle in with you.


Agreed. Only the fools thought just putting Cutler in place of Plummer meant the Broncos were going to the playoffs that year. They had no defense with Plummer that year either, yet did not see as many people admit that when Plummer was the QB. Heck, even when the Broncos made it to the conference championship game, the defense didn't show up for that game either.

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 01:38 PM
Funny to hear people like yourself finally talking about defense.

I couldn't pay someone to have a conversation about defense around here a few years ago. It was all about swapping QBs. That was the ticket!

I'm pretty much on record with the opinion that firing Coyer was one of the biggest blunders Shanahan ever made.

DBroncos4life
03-22-2009, 02:01 PM
Herc, you're usually a smart guy. Somewhat disappointing to see you be so obtuse on the issue.

I actually agreed with the Plummer benching. (Well for disclosure, I thought it should have been done against K.C. if we wanted to save the season.)

The team did go to hell once we put Jay in, but it wasn't because of Jay. My entire stance with regards to the Jay/Jake arguments has always been that we needed to build a complete team. People around here insisted it was as simple as a QB-swap. Well, you see where that got us.

It was about the defense with me, Herc. It has been for a decade. You're usually an insightful guy. I'm surprised that point didn't settle in with you.

Herc is the only poster I've seen that is right when it comes to this matter. I know Im wrong to jump on McD like I did and you should know that you are wrong with comparing Cutler to players like Ryan Leaf and Jeff George when he has already done much more then what they did their careers.
My beef wich McD will always be that we should be fixing a D that allowed 420 plus points last year and worry about the O if we can't adjust to his system.

Broncos4tw
03-22-2009, 02:15 PM
Plummer was never going to win the big game, ever. Cutler could. Comparing the two is laughable. I don't know why people are going to such efforts to minimize his natural talent, and act like he is some sort of hack. Man.. does he owe you guys money or something? Not only do you hate him (yea.. you want him back.. yea.. riiight), you want crappy trade value out of him to prove you are right! So sad.. and you are Bronco fans?

Cutler had to deal with an incredibly crappy defense, horrible special teams, where most games, we started on the 18, and opponents started on the 40, and a very weak running game. There is no doubt he has some amazing skills. He WILL be a top QB. The other prospects we have will NOT. It's that simple.

gyldenlove
03-22-2009, 02:24 PM
Or, "I've developed a top notch QB in this very system and he's been made available to me, so I did my job and considered all options to improve the Denver Broncos."


Since when is a one-year wonder a top notch QB? I think the market spoke and decided on that one, he was traded for a 2nd round pick along with a top OLB. That is hardly a top notch QB.


McDaniels is Cutler's boss. He's his coach. Of COURES Jay has to prove himself to him. Are you kidding? How many Superbowls had Tomlin won? How many GAMES? Yet, those pros in Pittsburgh proved themselves to the young head coach.


So Mcdaniels has to prove himself to Bowlen? Considering the Steelers players came off a super bowl win, I think they had all proved themselves very effectively. I don't think any of the players on that team came out and said, well now there is a new boss we better play twice as hard as we did when Cowher was in charge - in fact I am sure they didn't.


Of course Jay has to prove himself. All of the players do. That's as basic as it gets.


So Brady has to prove himself to Belichick? Peyton Manning has to prove himself to Jim Caldwell? Because I could swear that either Caldwell or Manning is the surefire first ballot hall of famer, super bowl winner and perennial all-pro, and the other is a rookie. In fact right now, if Polian has to chose between Manning and Caldwell, I am sure that it will be Caldwell who ends up down at the unemployment office.


You have no idea if that's true. Stating it like fact is sort of goofy. I'm sure writers speculated and I'm sure McDaniels said what he had to say publicly.
But, only Bowlen and McDaniels know what really happened at the interviews.


This is what Mcdaniels said in his press conference when he was hired:

"I think Jay is gonna enjoy playing in this system, this offense is very QB friendly, once you get to the point where you can use all the tools that it gives the QB. So Obviously he is a very important part of our success going forward and I can't wait to get to work with him.

That sounds to me like it has been made clear to him that Cutler is the key. I can't prove it, but I bet you if they had talked about trading Cutler during the interviews, Mcdaniels wouldn't have said something like that in his first press conference.


You're aiming that at the wrong guy.

Cutler didn't try to trade Mcdaniels and then deny it and then admit it and then deny that it was wrong.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:29 PM
Do I want him as a Bronco? Yes, but only if he wants to be a Bronco. I'd also like to see him grow up and stop the prima-donna crap. I'd prefer to have Cutler the football player and Cutler the spoiled child seperated.

I've said it over and over on here that Jay has skills. It's the remainder of the package that I'm sick of. Jay is part of puzzle, he's not the puzzle as a whole.

As a leader he shouldn't be acting like a child and making this about him.

McDaniels has challenge him with the attempted trade, basically saying "Prove to me that you can be just as good as Brady or successfull as Cassel."

Yet Jay doesn't want the challenge, he seems to want it handed to him,he wants promised that he's the man. Instead of going out there and showing McDaniels that he is the man and that even thinking about trading him was insane.

Earn the respect, accept the challenge and show how a leader handles himself when other think he can't.

Successful as Cassel, seems to me, Cassel should hope to be as successful as Cutler considering he no longer plays for a team any QB can win with. exactly how many wins did Cassel win on his own, without help from the running game, defense or special teams? Jay won 8 last year, and went to the pro bowl while doing it, i don't recall seeing Cassel there

and all you say about Jay is more so a necessity for McDaniels. he has shown nothing yet that says he is to be respected. he has never coached a practice let alone a game, and with the failures of his former colleagues he has more to prove to the team than Jay does.

DBroncos4life
03-22-2009, 02:35 PM
I mean how hard is it to keep a trade rumor a secret? How the hell did it get to the media in the first place? McD handled this about the same way as a guy getting walked in on by his wife while doing some other chick. Whats the first thing they say to their wife? Its not what it looks like.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:35 PM
McDaniels is Cutler's boss. He's his coach. Of COURES Jay has to prove himself to him. Are you kidding? How many Superbowls had Tomlin won? How many GAMES? Yet, those pros in Pittsburgh proved themselves to the young head coach.

i don't recall Tomlin coming in and putting Big Ben on the trading block. he came in and did things right. he didn't dick around with the strengths of the team, all he did was come in, and add some of his own ideas and ways to the organization. he was tough but fair, and didn't try to pull power plays on his players, he came in showed respect where it was due and was in turn given respect for being a good coach who demanded excellence from his players

McDaniels came in did the opposite he decided to start dismantling the strength of the team and showing no respect to the leader and most important piece of the team.

WolfpackGuy
03-22-2009, 02:39 PM
Cassel can't hold Cutler's jock, and it's going to show this year.

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:40 PM
Since when is a one-year wonder a top notch QB?

Probably the same time a guy with a losing record and a career 87 passer rating is a top notch QB.


So Mcdaniels has to prove himself to Bowlen? Considering the Steelers players came off a super bowl win, I think they had all proved themselves very effectively. I don't think any of the players on that team came out and said, well now there is a new boss we better play twice as hard as we did when Cowher was in charge - in fact I am sure they didn't..

That makes zero sense.

So, the Steelers didn't play hard for Tomlin, but they won a Superbowl? Or, they just never stopped playing hard? But, you believe our guys WILL stop playing hard because the coach hasn't won games in the NFL? You happen to recall Shanahan's record when he took over the Broncos? I seem to remember guys playing hard for him.


So Brady has to prove himself to Belichick? Peyton Manning has to prove himself to Jim Caldwell? Because I could swear that either Caldwell or Manning is the surefire first ballot hall of famer.

You're mentioning Cutler and Brady in the same sentence... why?


"I think Jay is gonna enjoy playing in this system, this offense is very QB friendly, once you get to the point where you can use all the tools that it gives the QB. So Obviously he is a very important part of our success going forward and I can't wait to get to work with him..

Sure. What's a coach going to say... "I think Jay is a crybaby and has a bowl haircut?"

Of course he's going to present the prettiest picture possible. That was likely before he was presented offers for a QB he knows can run his system. You also have NO idea what happened behind the scenes. For all we know, Jay's agent has been poking around Dove Valley for a pay-raise before Jay ever hits the field.

So, you can speculate... and so can anyone else.

Beyond that, Jay is being invited in to be part of the system and is refusing the offer.

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:42 PM
i don't recall Tomlin coming in and putting Big Ben on the trading block. he came in and did things right. he didn't dick around with the strengths of the team

He was lucky to inherit a properly structured team. McDaniels was not so lucky. He got a team with a **** defense, **** special teams... middle of the road at scoring and apparently a QB that believes he IS the team.

Beyond that, the statement was that players don't have to prove themselves to coaches. If you've played football, you know that's bull****. Even if you haven't, you should know.

DBroncos4life
03-22-2009, 02:44 PM
He was lucky to inherit a properly structured team. McDaniels was not so lucky. He got a team with a **** defense, **** special teams... middle of the road at scoring and apparently a QB that believes he IS the team.

Beyond that, the statement was that players don't have to prove themselves to coaches. If you've played football, you know that's bull****. Even if you haven't, you should know.

Makes you wonder why he took the job in the first place, with everything being so bad here and all.

Popps
03-22-2009, 02:47 PM
Makes you wonder why he took the job in the first place, with everything being so bad here and all.

Shanahan said himself that Bowlen is the best owner in sports. McDaniels knows that Denver is a great football town with great tradition. Why wouldn't he take the job? Denver was considered the best job opening available.

You think he took the job because of Jay friggin' Cutler?

ROFL!

Blueflame
03-22-2009, 02:50 PM
I mean how hard is it to keep a trade rumor a secret? How the hell did it get to the media in the first place? McD handled this about the same way as a guy getting walked in on by his wife while doing some other chick. Whats the first thing they say to their wife? Its not what it looks like.

Someone leaked the trade rumor is what happened. Do you think it's mere coincidence that it was first reported in Boston media? I don't.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 02:51 PM
He was lucky to inherit a properly structured team. McDaniels was not so lucky. He got a team with a **** defense, **** special teams... middle of the road at scoring and apparently a QB that believes he IS the team.

Beyond that, the statement was that players don't have to prove themselves to coaches. If you've played football, you know that's bull****. Even if you haven't, you should know.

yes players have to prove themselves to their coaches, if not for the respect for the check they receive.

but new HC also need to earn respect of their players. and anyone who has played or watches football should know that. and in McDaniels case, he didn't do that. the best way to earn respect of your team is to start the way he did. he came in said what he wanted to do, was building a relationship with his QB which he came in saying he couldn't wait to work with, and then decided once his old butt buddy was available to toss that all aside, and once it blew up in his face, he decided to pull a power play on Jay.

respect needs to be given to be returned. and considering not a signle one of his former colleagues has been successful and he is starting off looking like he won't be either, he needs to tread carefully and pray that Jay comes in and performs how he can.

DBroncos4life
03-22-2009, 02:54 PM
Shanahan said himself that Bowlen is the best owner in sports. McDaniels knows that Denver is a great football town with great tradition. Why wouldn't he take the job? Denver was considered the best job opening available.

You think he took the job because of Jay friggin' Cutler?

ROFL!

I would like to believe he took the job because he felt he could take us to the top again. I would bet the farm he didn't look at Jay Cutler and think man he is a below .500 QB with a 87 career rating and think to himself the only way I can do that is to trade his worthless ass.

There wasn't a national sports writer that didn't think the opening at HC in Denver was the best coaching job in the NFL because of the young talented O that they would be given and that O included Jay friggin' Cutler as you put it.

As for this QB rating you keep talking about. There couldn't be a worse system ever to judge a QB then that. I mean for the love of god do you even know what John Elways QB rating is? How on earth could you even defend Elway when people told you he sucked as a QB? Trust me I heard it all the time that he wasn't a good QB.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:02 PM
I would like to believe he took the job because he felt he could take us to the top again. I would bet the farm he didn't look at Jay Cutler and think man he is a below .500 QB with a 87 career rating and think to himself the only way I can do that is to trade his worthless ass.

No, I agree with that. But, he may have foreseen a QB who perceives himself to be larger than the organization. Right now, it sure appears that way.

Again, if you're McDaniels... and you KNOW Cassel is a real talent and runs your system like a finely tuned machine, you wouldn't at least listen to offers?

Remember, McDaniels has no emotional attachment to Cutler. He's probably got very little emotional attachment at all. He's from the Bill B. school of doing business, and feelings WILL get hurt. He wants to win. I don't think you're giving him any credit as to perhaps seeing something in this situation that you're not seeing.


There wasn't a nation sports writer that didn't think the opening at HC in Denver was the best coaching job in the NFL because of the young talented O that they would be given and that O included Jay friggin' Cutler as you put it. .

Fair enough, and that's a valid point. Still, Denver has long been considered a great football town, great fans, great owner and an attractive place for a coach to land. Point is, if Pat Ramsey was our starting QB, I'm not sure McDaniels would have been any less interested in the gig. He wants to put an entire system/concept together, and you do that from the ground-up.


As for this QB rating you keep talking about. There couldn't be a worse system ever to judge a QB then that. I mean for the love of god do you even know what John Elways QB rating is?

It's just something to throw out there. You can pick another stat if you prefer. His win-loss ratio sucks, his TD to INT ratio isn't great, and his other measurable stats come out somewhere right around what Jake Plummer did in Denver. So, I'm not sure what stats our measuring stick you'd like to use.

I've already acknowledged that he throws for high yardage numbers, for what that's worth.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 03:13 PM
Probably the same time a guy with a losing record and a career 87 passer rating is a top notch QB.

That makes zero sense.

So, the Steelers didn't play hard for Tomlin, but they won a Superbowl? Or, they just never stopped playing hard? But, you believe our guys WILL stop playing hard because the coach hasn't won games in the NFL? You happen to recall Shanahan's record when he took over the Broncos? I seem to remember guys playing hard for him.

Tomlin and Shanahan didn't come in and tear down strengths that the former regime had installed, neither of them came in and put down their star QBs and basically told them it was their way or the highway. they came in, gave respect where it was due and were tough but fair and in return got the respect and best out of the players.

no one has said the team will perform poorly just because the coach has never coached before. they are simply saying that the coach needs to show some respect in order to make sure the players want to perform for him. of course they will play hard, because they want the money they get because of that, but in terms of going as hard as they can, or leaving everything on the field, it may not happen for a guy they don't trust or respect. they will do their jobs, but to make sure they do it as best as they can, they need to know it is noticed and appreciated by the coach. so far McDaniels has paid no attention to the accomplishments of the players he has, and that is goin g to cause a rift in the locker room



John Elway the G.O.A.T had a career passer rating of 79.9 so don't try to bad mouth a guy with a career 87 passer rating by claiming that his passer rating prevents him from being a franchise QB.

and if you want to compare the 1st 3 years of their careers based on stats.
Elway - 47-TDs 52-INTs 8152-Passing Yards 67.3-Passer Rating
Cutler - 54-TDs 34-INTs 9024-Passing Yards 87.1-Passer Rating

Jay is on pace to throw for more TDs, less INTs and more yards than John, yet John was a franchise QB and Jay isn't.

and also before you try to say it is wins and losses that matter. Wins and Losses are a team stat and when your defense is ranked 28th or lower in points score the entire time you are a starting QB, you are not going to win a lot of games.
John may have played on teams with less offensive talent, but his defenses the 1st 3 years he played were ranked no lower than 13th in points allowed, and that made up for the many more mistakes he made in his 1st 3 seasons than Jay has made in his in his 1st 3 seasons.

DBroncos4life
03-22-2009, 03:24 PM
popps Cassel isn't a talent. He will flop in KC if that D doesn't improve and improve in a hurry. We already know that their isn't a QB in the NFL that would win with our D. No QB in the history in the NFL as a winning record when his team allows 30 plus points per game. At the same time though we do know QBs can win if their D stops the other team.

Really popps if this D can just allow 7 to 10 points less a game next year we maybe just have a chance to reach the playoffs.

gyldenlove
03-22-2009, 03:28 PM
Probably the same time a guy with a losing record and a career 87 passer rating is a top notch QB.


Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, Donovan Mcnab, Steve Mcnair and John Elway. QBs with a career rating less than Jay Cutlers. But I guess they aren't top notch QBs either.... You can keep fishing stats out of your ass all you want, fact is that NFL GMs have spoken and they said Cassel wasn't worth anything.


That makes zero sense.

So, the Steelers didn't play hard for Tomlin, but they won a Superbowl? Or, they just never stopped playing hard? But, you believe our guys WILL stop playing hard because the coach hasn't won games in the NFL? You happen to recall Shanahan's record when he took over the Broncos? I seem to remember guys playing hard for him.


Did Tomlin call out his star player? did he try to trade Casey Hampton or Roethlisberger? Did Shanahan try to trade Elway?

They knew their place, they knew they were hired to coach, and that is what they did. Mcdaniels seems to have forgotten that and wants to be overlord of the Broncos.


You're mentioning Cutler and Brady in the same sentence... why?


You say players have to prove themselves, or is that only Broncos players?


Sure. What's a coach going to say... "I think Jay is a crybaby and has a bowl haircut?"

Of course he's going to present the prettiest picture possible. That was likely before he was presented offers for a QB he knows can run his system. You also have NO idea what happened behind the scenes. For all we know, Jay's agent has been poking around Dove Valley for a pay-raise before Jay ever hits the field.

So, you can speculate... and so can anyone else.

Beyond that, Jay is being invited in to be part of the system and is refusing the offer.

So you are just going to roll over and give up? of course anyone can speculate, the difference is that I have facts to back up what I think. We know that Mcdaniels said Cutler was important to the future and success of this team as soon as he was hired. We don't know if Cutler asked for a pay raise. I prefer to go with what I know, but I know some people feel more comfortable with the voices in their head.

Really nice invite, I couldn't get rid of you even though I tried, so I guess you can come over. I would definitely go.

WolfpackGuy
03-22-2009, 03:29 PM
Again, if you're McDaniels... and you KNOW Cassel is a real talent and runs your system like a finely tuned machine

Wow. Let me say that backwards. Wow.

Popps
03-22-2009, 03:33 PM
Wow. Let me say that backwards. Wow.

Cassel played every bit as well, or better than Cutler last year. Both have similar weapons at their disposal.

You can "wow" all you want. But, Pioli and McDaniels worked with this kid first-hand for several years. They know what they have in Cassel.

You can fall into the message-board-guy train of thought that says he's a one-year-wonder, if you like. Look, I argued with people around here the first four years of Brady's career as they tried to call him "average."

In short, yes... I'll take Pioli's and McCaniels' opinion of Cassel over yours. Nothing personal.

manchambo
03-22-2009, 03:33 PM
I think that this article makes perfect sense, because the Broncos and Eagles Defenses have been very similar during Cutler's tenure.

DBroncos4life
03-22-2009, 03:39 PM
Cassel played every bit as well, or better than Cutler last year. Both have similar weapons at their disposal.

You can "wow" all you want. But, Pioli and McDaniels worked with this kid first-hand for several years. They know what they have in Cassel.

You can fall into the message-board-guy train of thought that says he's a one-year-wonder, if you like. Look, I argued with people around here the first four years of Brady's career as they tried to call him "average."

In short, yes... I'll take Pioli's and McCaniels' opinion of Cassel over yours. Nothing personal.

Our D gave up 28 points per game. NE's D gave up 19.3 points per game. We will see what he does with KC because I don't think they have done much to improve on their D that allowed 27.5 points per game.

WolfpackGuy
03-22-2009, 03:48 PM
Cassel played every bit as well, or better than Cutler last year. Both have similar weapons at their disposal.

You can "wow" all you want. But, Pioli and McDaniels worked with this kid first-hand for several years. They know what they have in Cassel.

You can fall into the message-board-guy train of thought that says he's a one-year-wonder, if you like. Look, I argued with people around here the first four years of Brady's career as they tried to call him "average."

In short, yes... I'll take Pioli's and McCaniels' opinion of Cassel over yours. Nothing personal.

Did you happen to catch the NE-SD or NE-PIT games last year?
"In short," I'd say no because he damn sure looked like the 230th pick in the 2005 draft in those games.

UberBroncoMan
03-22-2009, 03:53 PM
If Cutler was smart, and you would think a guy who went to Vanderbilt would be very smart -- by the way, Vandy went winless in his senior season -- he would have welcomed McDaniels as his head coach.

That alone makes me think the writer is an idiot.

WABronco
03-22-2009, 03:57 PM
Quick, to the ESPN game logs!

Ya well...*looks down list...Cutler didn't look like...uhh...I mean....looked like the 230th pick against whoever we played against in our losses! SO THERE!

Broncoman13
03-22-2009, 04:02 PM
I know, Jay has a long way to go. :sunshine:



This place IS therapy. Free!

FYI, therapy and Comic Relief are different. :sunshine:

Popps
03-22-2009, 04:07 PM
popps Cassel isn't a talent. .

Bill B. drafted him, Pioli traded for him and McDaniels considered trading for him.

So, forgive me if I take their opinion over yours.

He will flop in KC if that D doesn't improve and improve in a hurry. .

That's probably safe to say about most QBs.


Really popps if this D can just allow 7 to 10 points less a game next year we maybe just have a chance to reach the playoffs.

We're going to build a complete team, man. I'm stoked. I hope Cutler is part of that, but if he's not... oh well. I want to see a real football team out there, not some fantasy football QB trying to pile up numbers to apologize for failures of the rest of our team.

Again, I hope Jay comes to his senses... but if not, don't let the door hit you in the ass, buddy.

Popps
03-22-2009, 04:07 PM
FYI, therapy and Comic Relief are different. :sunshine:

Well, they say laughing makes you live longer. If that's the case, this place has added years to my life.

Popps
03-22-2009, 04:09 PM
Did you happen to catch the NE-SD or NE-PIT games last year?
"In short," I'd say no because he damn sure looked like the 230th pick in the 2005 draft in those games.

Well, he had a better TD/INT ratio than Cutler last year. Not sure what happened against SD, but Pittsburgh has this habit of making QBs look bad.

How did Jay Cutler look against San Diego last year? Pretty solid?

DBroncos4life
03-22-2009, 04:34 PM
Bill B. drafted him, Pioli traded for him and McDaniels considered trading for him.

So, forgive me if I take their opinion over yours.



That's probably safe to say about most QBs.



We're going to build a complete team, man. I'm stoked. I hope Cutler is part of that, but if he's not... oh well. I want to see a real football team out there, not some fantasy football QB trying to pile up numbers to apologize for failures of the rest of our team.

Again, I hope Jay comes to his senses... but if not, don't let the door hit you in the ass, buddy.

I guess everyone that BB drafted is great and everyone that Pioli trades for will work out.

Cassel won't be looked at as a great trade nor will people mistake him for being a good QB in the NFL when this is all said and done. Prior to last year I doubt there would be a GM in the NFL that would try and build a team around Cassel but after one good year a team is going to do just that.
BB doesn't even know if Tom Brady will be the same again and he moved Cassel. Both teams that he was moving him to had former staff members of his. I just don't understand if Cassel is so talented then why is it only BBs former staff members trying to trade for him? What was stopping the Lions for offering thier second round pick for him?

NUB
03-22-2009, 05:02 PM
Cassel played every bit as well, or better than Cutler last year. Both have similar weapons at their disposal.

You can "wow" all you want. But, Pioli and McDaniels worked with this kid first-hand for several years. They know what they have in Cassel.

You can fall into the message-board-guy train of thought that says he's a one-year-wonder, if you like. Look, I argued with people around here the first four years of Brady's career as they tried to call him "average."

In short, yes... I'll take Pioli's and McCaniels' opinion of Cassel over yours. Nothing personal.

Team's, man. It's about the team. I even pointed this out earlier in this thread. Dunno if you missed it or ignored it, but I showed how Plummer "won" games despite horrible play. Cutler has not won a game with a sub-70 rating, meaning if he plays bad then the team can't just pull one out of the hat.

Cassel took hold of a team after it had just gone 18-1, excuse me if some people around here are quick to say he wont be looking too good in Kansas City (or in Denver, had it come to that).

Arkie
03-22-2009, 05:03 PM
The defense sucked for sure, but Cutler threw twice as many INTs as TDs during the last three games. They were at horrible times too. I remember being down by a couple of scores to the Chargers in the third quarter. We needed a good drive to match Rivers and try to keep up. Instead, Cutler throws a pick inside our own twenty. Like I said, the defense sucks. You can't give the Chargers that kind of opportunity. LT scores on the next play. It looks like the defense gave up some more points on the stat sheet, but Cutler gets at least half the blame. He put the Chargers in the redzone to begin a 20 yard drive.

Jay sucked the last three games just like the defense, especially the last one which was essentially a playoff game for both teams. The losses last year were a team effort. The loser mentality on this team that caused the monumental collapse was led by Jay Cutler. He embraced an atmosphere that made him feel important and the defense feel like 2nd class citizens. I'm not surprised guys like Champ don't like him.

barryr
03-22-2009, 05:04 PM
I'll be surprised if Cassell does well in KC and since it's KC, I hope he doesn't.

DrFate
03-22-2009, 08:22 PM
That's very easy to look up. Points-wise, #28 in '07; #30 in '08. Through the Plummer years, they ranked #9 (03), #9 ('04), #3 ('05) and #8 ('06)

Great post and nicely researched.

HEAV
03-22-2009, 09:39 PM
The defense sucked for sure, but Cutler threw twice as many INTs as TDs during the last three games. They were at horrible times too. I remember being down by a couple of scores to the Chargers in the third quarter. We needed a good drive to match Rivers and try to keep up. Instead, Cutler throws a pick inside our own twenty. Like I said, the defense sucks. You can't give the Chargers that kind of opportunity. LT scores on the next play. It looks like the defense gave up some more points on the stat sheet, but Cutler gets at least half the blame. He put the Chargers in the redzone to begin a 20 yard drive.

Jay sucked the last three games just like the defense, especially the last one which was essentially a playoff game for both teams. The losses last year were a team effort. The loser mentality on this team that caused the monumental collapse was led by Jay Cutler. He embraced an atmosphere that made him feel important and the defense feel like 2nd class citizens. I'm not surprised guys like Champ don't like him.



The Bills game was one of those black eye type games for Jay throwing a Int at the goal line and over throwing a wide open Stokely that would have tied the game.

-------------

The trade for Cassel wasn't about talent or skills. It was about knowing one player more than the other. It was about making the learning curve less for the other Broncos on offense.

It also may have been about maturity over a hot head.

Yes based on talent Cassel isn't in Cutler's class. But given that McDaniels know's Cassel, Cassel knows the offense and Jay's attitude early, I can see why McDaniels would listen to the offers.

Not to mention it would have kept a rival from getting a player they needed.

BroncoMan4ever
03-22-2009, 11:13 PM
The Bills game was one of those black eye type games for Jay throwing a Int at the goal line and over throwing a wide open Stokely that would have tied the game.

-------------

The trade for Cassel wasn't about talent or skills. It was about knowing one player more than the other. It was about making the learning curve less for the other Broncos on offense.

It also may have been about maturity over a hot head.

Yes based on talent Cassel isn't in Cutler's class. But given that McDaniels know's Cassel, Cassel knows the offense and Jay's attitude early, I can see why McDaniels would listen to the offers.

Not to mention it would have kept a rival from getting a player they needed.

a couple things that aren't brought up much are the fact that last season Jay was in an offense that was basically a replica of the Pats offensive system, and that although Cassel may be more well versed in that system, he doesn't know the players he will work with. it takes time for guys to build a chemistry together.

basically, Jay was going to need to learn new terminology and new wrinkles in a playbook he is already somewhat familiar with.

Cassel would have known the playbook, but he wouldn't have the chemistry with Marshall, Royal, and maybe Scheff which is very important to a QB.