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TheReverend
03-21-2009, 02:31 PM
3. Try again, Josh

I've never seen a head coach foul up a situation more than what Denver's Josh McDaniels did with Jay Cutler.


But he still can make it right, if he stops reading Eric Mangini's notes from the Bill Belichick playbook.

To me, McDaniels had one move. The new Denver coach had to sit in a room with Cutler over the weekend and simply tell him that yes, he tried to trade for Matt Cassel. But then he needed to say he was wrong, sorry, and they need to win Super Bowls together.

Telling the franchise quarterback that he will always look to improve the club was not the play.

McDaniels needed to tell Cutler he was his guy, let's grab a coffee, and draw plays together.

Instead, the neophyte coach botched the situation. Badly.

Cutler wants out, demanding a trade. He's a young star who hasn't reached his full potential. McDaniels, a quarterback guru, was hired to maximize him.

There is absolutely no deal Denver can make where the Broncos come out on top. And for that, you solely blame McDaniels.

Which is why, and maybe I am the last person on the planet who believes this, McDaniels needs to realize the seriousness of the situation, call Cutler into his office and read from my script above.

Make Cutler feel wanted. Do it today. It's only your job at stake.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9348204/Schein's-Nine:-Belichick-piecing-together-title-team

SoCalBronco
03-21-2009, 02:36 PM
Very good insight by Adam Schein, as usual.

broncswin
03-21-2009, 02:47 PM
I have stated in many threads that I feel cutler needs to suck it up and quit puss* footin around, but I do feel that McD must and I say must sit down with Cutler and make nice!!

lex
03-21-2009, 02:49 PM
Yeah, he and Solomon Wilcots are in lock-step on this...have been the whole time. Its a really good time to have Sirius. Most of the talking heads on E!SPN are fawning over all things patriots.

chaz
03-21-2009, 03:11 PM
yup...there's only really one play for the Broncos if winning is truly what's most important

SoCalBronco
03-21-2009, 03:12 PM
yup...there's only really one play for the Broncos if winning is truly what's most important

Indeed. It's called an extension.

MechanicalBull
03-21-2009, 03:22 PM
I have stated in many threads that I feel cutler needs to suck it up and quit puss* footin around, but I do feel that McD must and I say must sit down with Cutler and make nice!!

I've been staying out of this whole mess, but didn't Josh want that but Cutler said he wouldn't do it without Bus Cook being there which led to Xanders joining in?

broncofan
03-21-2009, 03:27 PM
Yeah, he and Solomon Wilcots are in lock-step on this...have been the whole time. Its a really good time to have Sirius. Most of the talking heads on E!SPN are fawning over all things patriots.

Agreed.

I tend to agree with Schein's take almost all the time, so it's hard not to like their show...plus it's extremely entertaining, especially for a radio show. Regardless of who's fault it is, as the coach, McDaniels should be making the effort to reach out first. If Cutler/Cook continue to play hard ball so be it, but McD is making it <b>very</b> easy for them to do so and play it off as the victims. They need to lock Cutler into an extension.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 03:27 PM
I've been staying out of this whole mess, but didn't Josh want that but Cutler said he wouldn't do it without Bus Cook being there which led to Xanders joining in?

Yes.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 03:29 PM
Yes.

Wasn't there a meeting before that held by Bowlen, Ellis, Xanders, and McD? I've read that, doesn't make it true though.

Northman
03-21-2009, 03:45 PM
Both of them are idiots with Jay just dragging it out even more.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 03:49 PM
Both of them are idiots with Jay just dragging it out even more.

It's a business, right?

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 03:58 PM
Wasn't there a meeting before that held by Bowlen, Ellis, Xanders, and McD? I've read that, doesn't make it true though.

There's been talk about it, but other reports have Jay out of town when that meeting was supposed to have taken place.
The one we are sure about was the most recent, when McDdaniels and Jay were supposed to meet face to face.
That's the meeting that Jay insisted his agent attend.....requiring Xanders to attend also.

This entire situation is so messy and cloudy, I'm surprised the Broncos organization hasn't provided a time line and description of the events.
That would end a lot of speculation and cut down on a lot of repetitive threads.

Of course, Jay and his agent will have a very different version. So maybe not.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 04:00 PM
There's been talk about it, but other reports have Jay out of town when that meeting was supposed to have taken place.
The one we are sure about was the most recent, when McDdaniels and Jay were supposed to meet face to face.
That's the meeting that Jay insisted his agent attend.....requiring Xanders to attend also.

This entire situation is so messy and cloudy, I'm surprised the Broncos organization hasn't provided a time line and description of the events.
That would end a lot of speculation and cut down on a lot of repetitive threads.

Of course, Jay and his agent will have a very different version. So maybe not.

So they could look ****tier than they already do...?

ludo21
03-21-2009, 04:02 PM
Jay needs to remain a Bronco. I hope this happens.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 04:04 PM
So they could look ****tier than they already do...?

Oh, I get it, no need to deal with facts, you've made up your mind and know exactly what happened.
Well done, you know more than anyone. :wiggle:

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 04:07 PM
Oh, I get it, no need to deal with facts, you've made up your mind and know exactly what happened.
Well done, you know more than anyone. :wiggle:

Well, everything that's come out of Dove Valley this off-season has directly contradicted other statements out of Dove Valley this off-season, so paint that however you want.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 04:13 PM
Well, everything that's come out of Dove Valley this off-season has directly contradicted other statements out of Dove Valley this off-season, so paint that however you want.

That's why I suggested the Broncos release a time line and description of events.
All we have now are rumors, contradictions and assumptions.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 04:20 PM
That's why I suggested the Broncos release a time line and description of events.
All we have now are rumors, contradictions and assumptions.

Pat quotes:"Cutler is the man around here these days, and I'll be talking to him throughout this process"
"I didn't meet with Jay Cutler. Uhhhh, I don't REMEMBER meeting with Jay. I'm getting up there in age."

"The Goodmans will have their jobs."
McD: "I'll be working closely with the Goodmans. They've obviously done a great job recently in personnel decisions"

"All we did was answer phones"
"We were too late to the dance"

--------

Seems to me, if anyone in Dove Valley makes a glowing statement about you, you better pack your ****.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 04:22 PM
Pat quotes:"Cutler is the man around here these days, and I'll be talking to him throughout this process"
"I didn't meet with Jay Cutler. Uhhhh, I don't REMEMBER meeting with Jay. I'm getting up there in age."

"The Goodmans will have their jobs."
McD: "I'll be working closely with the Goodmans. They've obviously done a great job recently in personnel decisions"

"All we did was answer phones"
"We were too late to the dance"

--------

Seems to me, if anyone in Dove Valley makes a glowing statement about you, you better pack your ****.

Seems to me, you're making my point exactly. Thanks. ;D

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 04:23 PM
Seems to me, you're making my point exactly. Thanks. ;D

Not really... public quotes are fact. They've been full of **** all off-season.

Why would them providing a time line do anything for anyone trying to discern a shred of truth from the situation?

Popps
03-21-2009, 04:25 PM
Make Cutler feel wanted.

Hilarious!

First off, it's been published multiple times that McDaniels has invited Culter to sit down and talk football on more than one occasion.

Jay showed up with his DA-DA, and all bets were off.

I honestly can't wrap my head around how naive people are about this issue. It's almost frightening.

Jay's REFUSING to talk to the coach without a massive contract extension, or... that's the going line of reasoning and considering Jay had to bring DA-DA to what was supposed to be a one-to-one player/coach meeting, no one seems to be denying that this is the case.

Cutler wants a guarantee, before he ever throws a football for the new coach.... this, after holding out, skipping meetings and making himself the biggest distraction in the history of the franchise.

Yea, go ahead Pat... let this punk run your business for you. Let him make you his bitch. Give him what he wants, despite him showing no willingness to work with the staff, come to a meeting, nothing.

Go ahead, Broncos... extend Cutler's contract. Set the precedent of rewarding ****-can behavior. Let me know how that works out for the franchise.

Beantown Bronco
03-21-2009, 04:26 PM
That's why I suggested the Broncos release a time line and description of events.
All we have now are rumors, contradictions and assumptions.

How could they EVER hope to do this when the owner can't even remember conversations that he was specifically quoted on?

Kaylore
03-21-2009, 04:57 PM
So Adam Schein agrees that treating Cutler like a girl dumped at the prom is the order of business.

Here's a thought: Jay, grow some balls and quit whining like a little girl.

SportinOne
03-21-2009, 05:06 PM
With my 2,000th post, I am officially bowing out of this never-ending argument. I have said basically everything that I have to say, probably too many times, and I'm just sick of talking about it. Guys like Popps and Apa are not going to change their opinions this late in the game and neither am I. I just feel like the horse we continue to beat was dead even before it started walking, in that we didn't know much of the truth to begin with, and here we are waiting for the slightest twitch of life so that we can jump back on and give it a few more whacks.

I hope Jay is bluffing about wanting to be traded, and I hope Josh really does want Jay as his quarterback. Time will tell. I'll be back to talk draft.

barryr
03-21-2009, 05:18 PM
Make Cutler feel wanted.

Hilarious!

First off, it's been published multiple times that McDaniels has invited Culter to sit down and talk football on more than one occasion.

Jay showed up with his DA-DA, and all bets were off.

I honestly can't wrap my head around how naive people are about this issue. It's almost frightening.

Jay's REFUSING to talk to the coach without a massive contract extension, or... that's the going line of reasoning and considering Jay had to bring DA-DA to what was supposed to be a one-to-one player/coach meeting, no one seems to be denying that this is the case.

Cutler wants a guarantee, before he ever throws a football for the new coach.... this, after holding out, skipping meetings and making himself the biggest distraction in the history of the franchise.

Yea, go ahead Pat... let this punk run your business for you. Let him make you his b****. Give him what he wants, despite him showing no willingness to work with the staff, come to a meeting, nothing.

Go ahead, Broncos... extend Cutler's contract. Set the precedent of rewarding ****-can behavior. Let me know how that works out for the franchise.

Not only all of that, but how does extending Cutler now mean either the Broncos won't trade him or he won't ask for a trade again? Just because he were to get extended doesn't automatically mean he stays a Bronco for a long time. Which is why I'm wondering if Cutler and his agent are really worried about getting a committment from the Broncos or just getting a contract regardless of who gives it?

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 05:25 PM
Not really... public quotes are fact. They've been full of **** all off-season.

Why would them providing a time line do anything for anyone trying to discern a shred of truth from the situation?

Are you serious?? You have another way to discover the truth?? Shanny's lie detector??

We have not had an official record of the events presented by Dove Valley, that's all I'm suggesting.
Why the resistance to a record of the facts from their point of view?

We all know Jay's feelings have been hurt and he wants to be traded. Irony at it's best.
But he's under contract and has no grounds whatsoever.

I've mentioned in another thread, there is no breach of contract and having one's name mentioned in a trade is normal for the NFL.
An agent taking advantage of his client's meltdown to leverage a new contract or trade, well that's just business as usual.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 05:26 PM
How could they EVER hope to do this when the owner can't even remember conversations that he was specifically quoted on?

Just leave Pat out of the conversation.........and tell him one took place anyway. ;D

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 05:29 PM
With my 2,000th post, I am officially bowing out of this never-ending argument. I have said basically everything that I have to say, probably too many times, and I'm just sick of talking about it. Guys like Popps and Apa are not going to change their opinions this late in the game and neither am I. I just feel like the horse we continue to beat was dead even before it started walking, in that we didn't know much of the truth to begin with, and here we are waiting for the slightest twitch of life so that we can jump back on and give it a few more whacks.

I hope Jay is bluffing about wanting to be traded, and I hope Josh really does want Jay as his quarterback. Time will tell. I'll be back to talk draft.

I really expect to see Jay playing for Denver and this stupid incident in the rear-view mirror............eventually.

broncofan
03-21-2009, 05:31 PM
Not only all of that, but how does extending Cutler now mean either the Broncos won't trade him or he won't ask for a trade again? Just because he were to get extended doesn't automatically mean he stays a Bronco for a long time. Which is why I'm wondering if Cutler and his agent are really worried about getting a committment from the Broncos or just getting a contract regardless of who gives it?

You're right...extending Jay means nothing because McDaniels word isn't worth **** anyway.

SoCalBronco
03-21-2009, 05:36 PM
Not only all of that, but how does extending Cutler now mean either the Broncos won't trade him or he won't ask for a trade again? Just because he were to get extended doesn't automatically mean he stays a Bronco for a long time.

Yes it does. If he got a new deal, he'd probably get somewhere between 25-35m guaranteed. If he were traded within a couple years of that deal, the team would get destroyed on the cap with all the unamortized money hitting the cap all at once. In essence then, a long term extension means he will not be traded anytime soon.

Popps
03-21-2009, 05:37 PM
You're right...extending Jay means nothing because McDaniels word isn't worth **** anyway.

He's rubber and you're glue.

Northman
03-21-2009, 05:38 PM
If Jay dont want to play, dont pay. Trade him if need be. I just want this BS over with one way or another.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 05:47 PM
Yes it does. If he got a new deal, he'd probably get somewhere between 25-35m guaranteed. If he were traded within a couple years of that deal, the team would get destroyed on the cap with all the unamortized money hitting the cap all at once. In essence then, a long term extension means he will not be traded anytime soon.

So are you OK with Jay playing for the Broncos and that POS McDaniels as long as he gets a new contract?

SoCalBronco
03-21-2009, 05:57 PM
So are you OK with Jay playing for the Broncos and that POS McDaniels as long as he gets a new contract?

My position has always been that Jay is substantially more valuable to the organization than McDaniels is. If one of them has to go, it should be McDaniels because of that value analysis. If what is required to keep Jay is a new contract, then by all means, give it to him. Even on the merits themselves, I think he has made a good case that he deserves an extension. He's not responsible for the defense. He's only responsible for himself. And despite some flaws in his game, he has acquitted himself extremely well here, showing notable progress from year to year.

We've waited for 10 years to get a major league talent at this spot. I'm simply not willing to wait another 10 years or even another 2 or 3 years. We've got it. Hold on to it. McDaniels hasn't done anything to make this a difficult question (of who to keep if it came down to it). You've got to keep him. You must extend him. It's pretty simple I think. If that makes it more difficult for McDaniels to command respect in the lockerroom, so what? This is the problem he created. That's not my problem if he doesn't command respect if an extension is given to Cutler. I don't care. It's not important....or at least, its nowhere near as important as retaining Cutler's services.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 06:00 PM
So Adam Schein agrees that treating Cutler like a girl dumped at the prom is the order of business.

Here's a thought: Jay, grow some balls and quit whining like a little girl.

Have to admit, I haven't seen any of that.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 06:02 PM
My position has always been that Jay is substantially more valuable to the organization than McDaniels is. If one of them has to go, it should be McDaniels because of that value analysis. If what is required to keep Jay is a new contract, then by all means, give it to him. Even on the merits themselves, I think he has made a good case that he deserves an extension. He's not responsible for the defense. He's only responsible for himself. And despite some flaws in his game, he has acquitted himself extremely well here, showing notable progress from year to year.

We've waited for 10 years to get a major league talent at this spot. I'm simply not willing to wait another 10 years or even another 2 or 3 years. We've got it. Hold on to it. McDaniels hasn't done anything to make this a difficult question (of who to keep if it came down to it). You've got to keep him. You must extend him. It's pretty simple I think. If that makes it more difficult for McDaniels to command respect in the lockerroom, so what? This is the problem he created. That's not my problem if he doesn't command respect if an extension is given to Cutler. I don't care. It's not important....or at least, its nowhere near as important as retaining Cutler's services.

Fair enough.
I believe they can both co-exist This incident has been blown way out of proportion and both sides need to calm down and get back to business.......winning games and making the playoffs.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 06:02 PM
Are you serious?? You have another way to discover the truth?? Shanny's lie detector??

We have not had an official record of the events presented by Dove Valley, that's all I'm suggesting.
Why the resistance to a record of the facts from their point of view?

We all know Jay's feelings have been hurt and he wants to be traded. Irony at it's best.
But he's under contract and has no grounds whatsoever.

I've mentioned in another thread, there is no breach of contract and having one's name mentioned in a trade is normal for the NFL.
An agent taking advantage of his client's meltdown to leverage a new contract or trade, well that's just business as usual.


No. And first off, it's nearly impossible to get angry at you with that avy.

Secondly, I'm saying "facts from their point of view" is useless, considering all they've done is lie all off-season.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 06:04 PM
No. And first off, it's nearly impossible to get angry at you with that avy.

Secondly, I'm saying "facts from their point of view" is useless, considering all they've done is lie all off-season.

Well, at least you're not pre-judging. ;D

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 06:10 PM
Well, at least you're not pre-judging. ;D

It's not pre-judging! I put the quotes up in black and white earlier!

Northman
03-21-2009, 06:23 PM
No. And first off, it's nearly impossible to get angry at you with that avy.

Secondly, I'm saying "facts from their point of view" is useless, considering all they've done is lie all off-season.


As if anyone can get angry at your avy with a cobra spitting aids at McD? Ha!

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 06:25 PM
As if anyone can get angry at your avy with a cobra spitting aids at McD? Ha!

Only because it's a dream come true :)

Broncos4tw
03-21-2009, 06:26 PM
Jay's REFUSING to talk to the coach without a massive contract extension

Source?

Cutler wants a guarantee, before he ever throws a football for the new coach...

Source?

Go ahead, Broncos... extend Cutler's contract. Set the precedent of rewarding ****-can behavior. Let me know how that works out for the franchise.

Again, source please? Or is this just all wild conjuncture on your part, in a desperate attempt to convince everyone what a greedy, whiny baby Cutler is?

Yes... I think it's the latter.

baja
03-21-2009, 06:48 PM
My position has always been that Jay is substantially more valuable to the organization than McDaniels is. If one of them has to go, it should be McDaniels because of that value analysis. If what is required to keep Jay is a new contract, then by all means, give it to him. Even on the merits themselves, I think he has made a good case that he deserves an extension. He's not responsible for the defense. He's only responsible for himself. And despite some flaws in his game, he has acquitted himself extremely well here, showing notable progress from year to year.

We've waited for 10 years to get a major league talent at this spot. I'm simply not willing to wait another 10 years or even another 2 or 3 years. We've got it. Hold on to it. McDaniels hasn't done anything to make this a difficult question (of who to keep if it came down to it). You've got to keep him. You must extend him. It's pretty simple I think. If that makes it more difficult for McDaniels to command respect in the lockerroom, so what? This is the problem he created. That's not my problem if he doesn't command respect if an extension is given to Cutler. I don't care. It's not important....or at least, its nowhere near as important as retaining Cutler's services.

As this thing drags on I am thinking more and more that Pat Bowlen Is the major ball dropper here. He should have handled this a long time ago. He said he fired Shanny because he wanted to take his team back guess we should have asked him for a date when he planned to do that.

slyinky
03-21-2009, 07:01 PM
3. Try again, Josh

I've never seen a head coach foul up a situation more than what Denver's Josh McDaniels did with Jay Cutler.


But he still can make it right, if he stops reading Eric Mangini's notes from the Bill Belichick playbook.

To me, McDaniels had one move. The new Denver coach had to sit in a room with Cutler over the weekend and simply tell him that yes, he tried to trade for Matt Cassel. But then he needed to say he was wrong, sorry, and they need to win Super Bowls together.

Telling the franchise quarterback that he will always look to improve the club was not the play.

McDaniels needed to tell Cutler he was his guy, let's grab a coffee, and draw plays together.

Instead, the neophyte coach botched the situation. Badly.

Cutler wants out, demanding a trade. He's a young star who hasn't reached his full potential. McDaniels, a quarterback guru, was hired to maximize him.

There is absolutely no deal Denver can make where the Broncos come out on top. And for that, you solely blame McDaniels.

Which is why, and maybe I am the last person on the planet who believes this, McDaniels needs to realize the seriousness of the situation, call Cutler into his office and read from my script above.

Make Cutler feel wanted. Do it today. It's only your job at stake.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/9348204/Schein's-Nine:-Belichick-piecing-together-title-team

IMO this will never happen. It seems quite clear, at least to me, that McDaniels has brought over the philosophy from New England that no one player is above the team. "Superstars" are not going to be coddled. No player is going to be immune from trade talks if there is a chance to improve the club. It also seems to me that perhaps McDaniels is taking his seemingly hard stance on the issue, not out of stubbornness, but as a gauge. If Cutler isn't going to eventually do what is in the best interest of the team (i.e. show up to mini camp, get to work and set aside the obvious "business" angle of this fiasco) than maybe it's best to look in a different direction in regards to the QB and offensive leader of this team.

colonelbeef
03-21-2009, 07:19 PM
I agree 100% with Schein, it is the only logical way to view this situation.

I simply cannot fathom how educated Broncos fans can see this any differently

baja
03-21-2009, 07:22 PM
http://thecia.com.au/reviews/f/images/fracture-4.jpg

footstepsfrom#27
03-21-2009, 07:24 PM
With my 2,000th post, I am officially bowing out of this never-ending argument.
Ha ha...I did that before I got into it, cause I knew what was coming.

Trust me...you won't miss it.

Merlin
03-21-2009, 07:26 PM
It seems quite clear, at least to me, that McDaniels has brought over the philosophy from New England that no one player is above the team.
Now if we change that to "no one individual", then which individuals have been placing their egos above the team through much of this process? I can count two...and can see why a young man with an ego fed by the adulation of fans for the past 5-10 yrs would have been hurt. However, I don't see why a HC caught in a lie should not try and remedy the situation with a better line than "we were just answering the phone listening to offers"..."we were just trying to make the team better". Yeah, the LS and making an even trading a first for Cassel is thinking about what is best for the team...MacD's frail ego and need for a blankie had nothing to do with it.

slyinky
03-21-2009, 08:08 PM
Now if we change that to "no one individual", then which individuals have been placing their egos above the team through much of this process? I can count two...and can see why a young man with an ego fed by the adulation of fans for the past 5-10 yrs would have been hurt. However, I don't see why a HC caught in a lie should not try and remedy the situation with a better line than "we were just answering the phone listening to offers"..."we were just trying to make the team better". Yeah, the LS and making an even trading a first for Cassel is thinking about what is best for the team...MacD's frail ego and need for a blankie had nothing to do with it.
I'm just stating what I perceive to be McDaniels line of reasoning. I don't think it has anything to do with ego, he just wants to establish a certain kind of environment centered around his 'team' philosophy. Players will be treated the same no matter what value they bring to the table. By taking his unapologetic stance on the situation, he is seeing if Cutler is going to buy into this concept.

As far as the supposed dishonesty is concerned, who knows. Not a big deal for me either way if I am Cutler but apparently he is a little sensitive in these matters.

I can't say whether or not I agree with McD's handling of the situation but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. What other option is there? Personally, I have the same gut feeling with McDaniels as I did with the Shanahan hiring. I hope I am right. I'm just going to go with a wait and see attitude and if this team becomes a Super Bowl contender in the next 2 or 3 years than great. If not, see ya coach.

baja
03-21-2009, 08:21 PM
I'm just stating what I perceive to be McDaniels line of reasoning. I don't think it has anything to do with ego, he just wants to establish a certain kind of environment centered around his 'team' philosophy. Players will be treated the same no matter what value they bring to the table. By taking his unapologetic stance on the situation, he is seeing if Cutler is going to buy into this concept.

As far as the supposed dishonesty is concerned, who knows. Not a big deal for me either way if I am Cutler but apparently he is a little sensitive in these matters.

I can't say whether or not I agree with McD's handling of the situation but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. What other option is there? Personally, I have the same gut feeling with McDaniels as I did with the Shanahan hiring. I hope I am right. I'm just going to go with a wait and see attitude and if this team becomes a Super Bowl contender in the next 2 or 3 years than great. If not, see ya coach.
Best post by a wide margin on the sticking points of this saga


CLOSE ALL CUTLER/MCDANIELS THREADS

lex
03-21-2009, 08:21 PM
Well, at least you're not pre-judging. ;D

So what? Its McDaniels burden to win fan support. He's not entitled to it.

lex
03-21-2009, 08:23 PM
Best post by a wide margin on the sticking points of this saga


CLOSE ALL CUTLER/MCDANIELS THREADS

Bleh. It was ok but not great. I dont really believe McDaniels is that naive. And btw, this isnt New England where they hadnt won anything before Belichick arrived. Its not like we've never won anything. So, its a mistake for the organization to expect the fanbase to blindly accept everything Pat does and Josh does.

Popps
03-21-2009, 08:28 PM
I'm just stating what I perceive to be McDaniels line of reasoning. I don't think it has anything to do with ego, he just wants to establish a certain kind of environment centered around his 'team' philosophy. Players will be treated the same no matter what value they bring to the table. By taking his unapologetic stance on the situation, he is seeing if Cutler is going to buy into this concept.

As far as the supposed dishonesty is concerned, who knows. Not a big deal for me either way if I am Cutler but apparently he is a little sensitive in these matters.

I can't say whether or not I agree with McD's handling of the situation but I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. What other option is there? Personally, I have the same gut feeling with McDaniels as I did with the Shanahan hiring. I hope I am right. I'm just going to go with a wait and see attitude and if this team becomes a Super Bowl contender in the next 2 or 3 years than great. If not, see ya coach.

You're not alone, bro.

Many of us are extremely excited.

baja
03-21-2009, 08:34 PM
Bleh. It wasnt that great. I dont really believe McDaniels is that naive.

I don't see him as naive, more like committed make that incredibly committed. I think he does want to run the team concept and right now Cutler is his all in bet but it is really a no lose bet, he reigns Cutler in and gets him to buy into his "team consept" we win or he trades Cutler for a Hershel Walker randsom coaches up a C+ QB and he also wins.


You guys should be shiiting your pants with joy about this team.

Carry on!

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 08:55 PM
So what? Its McDaniels burden to win fan support. He's not entitled to it.

Do you ever stop whining and complaining??

Maybe he will never win your support, but I doubt anyone gives a sh*t.

Give it a rest.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 08:58 PM
I don't see him as naive, more like committed make that incredibly committed. I think he does want to run the team concept and right now Cutler is his all in bet but it is really a no lose bet, he reigns Cutler in and gets him to buy into his "team consept" we win or he trades Cutler for a Hershel Walker randsom coaches up a C+ QB and he also wins.


You guys should be shiiting your pants with joy about this team.

Carry on!

I think most fans are excited.
Unfortunately, following Shanahan is like following Elway......it will take a while....and for some drama queens, never!!

HEAV
03-21-2009, 09:35 PM
Indeed. It's called an extension.

For what?! Being a baby?! Missing his daddy Shanny?!

Bull****. Giving Jay money is the wrong thing. He's got a deal and he should honor it.

If Jay get's a new and act's all happy then it's proof that he wasn't pissed or hurt.It wasn't about feelings, respect and all the other BS he has thrown out there in the media.

It was all about money.

Archer81
03-21-2009, 09:49 PM
1 probowl appearance and we have the 2nd coming. Didnt Griese have a probowl season, we gave him a nice fat contract, and he petered out 2 seasons later? A few playoff appearances and refinement of his game then maybe Jay is worth the extension. He has so much upside that this is almost a given, but why act like a hobo and freak out because you were mentioned in trade talks? Buck up lil billy.

:Broncos:

HEAV
03-21-2009, 10:22 PM
1 probowl appearance and we have the 2nd coming. Didnt Griese have a probowl season, we gave him a nice fat contract, and he petered out 2 seasons later? A few playoff appearances and refinement of his game then maybe Jay is worth the extension. He has so much upside that this is almost a given, but why act like a hobo and freak out because you were mentioned in trade talks? Buck up lil billy.

:Broncos:


Yes in 2000 Griese was voted to the probowl in 2000. Also I fairly sure that after the 2000 season Griese was a restricted free agent and Shanny gave him a new deal...that worked out great!


Also Plummer made the Probowl in 2005 while leading this team to the AFC Championship...but then Shanny drafted Cutler.

baja
03-21-2009, 10:25 PM
Indeed. It's called an extension.

NO TO EXTENSION

That would set McDaniels and the Broncos back for years

SoCalBronco
03-21-2009, 10:42 PM
NO TO EXTENSION

That would set McDaniels and the Broncos back for years

Explain. What are your specific objections to an extension. I have already addressed the issue of "well, this would make it hard for McDaniels to govern because he would lose respect in the lockerroom" in the other thread. What other objections do you have? Are you suggesting that Jay is not entitled to an extension on the merits, despite carrying the team on his back this year, going to the Pro Bowl and possessing big time upside? John Elway has already remarked that he believes he is a top 5 QB and we all know what his record is when the defense is even halfway decent.

If your objection is not on the merits, and it is not what was listed above (McDaniels ability to govern after "caving in"), what are the specific objections?

Archer81
03-21-2009, 10:45 PM
Explain. What are your specific objections to an extension. I have already addressed the issue of "well, this would make it hard for McDaniels to govern because he would lose respect in the lockerroom" in the other thread. What other objections do you have? Are you suggesting that Jay is not entitled to an extension on the merits, despite carrying the team on his back this year, going to the Pro Bowl and possessing big time upside? John Elway has already remarked that he believes he is a top 5 QB and we all know what his record is when the defense is even halfway decent.

If your objection is not on the merits, and it is not what was listed above (McDaniels ability to govern after "caving in"), what are the specific objections?


How has he earned one?


:Broncos:

Inkana7
03-21-2009, 10:46 PM
1) He hasn't earned it.

2) McDaniels shouldn't cave to the demands of a child and his puppeteering agent.

3) He hasn't earned it.

Maybe once he stops throwing red zone picks with the playoffs on the line, or maybe compiling a winning record, he should get a new deal. He hasn't earned **** yet, though.

baja
03-21-2009, 10:53 PM
Explain. What are your specific objections to an extension. I have already addressed the issue of "well, this would make it hard for McDaniels to govern because he would lose respect in the lockerroom" in the other thread. What other objections do you have? Are you suggesting that Jay is not entitled to an extension on the merits, despite carrying the team on his back this year, going to the Pro Bowl and possessing big time upside? John Elway has already remarked that he believes he is a top 5 QB and we all know what his record is when the defense is even halfway decent.

If your objection is not on the merits, and it is not what was listed above (McDaniels ability to govern after "caving in"), what are the specific objections?

Sure;

Cutler is a dick and has three years left on his current contract.

Giving Cutler a new contract now lets every agent in the league that mcDaniels can be had.

Giving Cutler a new deal now sends a message to every player who the real boss man is on the Broncos

Giving Cutler a new deal will make him an insufferable locker room cancer for the rest of his career.

Giving Cutler a new deal now will cut the heart out of the "Team Concept" McDaniels is banking his whole career on.

There only two choices, make Cutler come in and if necessary sit him and let Sims (or Another ) run the team or trade him on draft day if it looks like the is no hope for him to accept the "Team Concept"

Popps
03-21-2009, 10:53 PM
1) He hasn't earned it.

2) McDaniels shouldn't cave to the demands of a child and his puppeteering agent.

3) He hasn't earned it.

Maybe once he stops throwing red zone picks with the playoffs on the line, or maybe compiling a winning record, he should get a new deal. He hasn't earned **** yet, though.

But, he threw for 4000 yards!!!!

lex
03-21-2009, 10:58 PM
Do you ever stop whining and complaining??

Maybe he will never win your support, but I doubt anyone gives a sh*t.

Give it a rest.

I could easily be as dismissive to you...its too bad Im not seeking your approval.

SoCalBronco
03-21-2009, 11:02 PM
Sure;

Cutler is a dick

Not relevant.

and has three years left on his current contract.

That's a fair objection. But keep in mind what the future holds. Salaries are only escalating and soon we will have an uncapped year. Cutler's game has been improving year after year and has illustrated that at least at a very basic level, he is a very good QB. There are questions with regard to whether he is merely a Top 10 QB or a Top 3-5 QB, but most believe that at absolute worst, he is a Top 7-8 QB. The time is ripe to lock him in before he continues to improve (incidentally, if you believe McDaniels is some great QB guru that will make this guy even more of a monster, it would necessarily follow that you would think that it is important to lock him in before his cost skyrockets even more).

Giving Cutler a new contract now lets every agent in the league that mcDaniels can be had.

I don't believe so. Each situation is unique. We must avoid being intellectually lazy and painting things with a broad brush. You must be fact intensive. It isn't that McDaniels can be had. It is that in this unique situation, where a player's value is extremely high to his team, where the team has already ****ed things up, they were able to work out an extension to avoid a further crisis. That's not going to happen every time. If Boss Bailey wanted an extension, he wouldn't get it. There's no crisis, and he has no value. Each player's value is unique to themselves.

Giving Cutler a new deal now sends a message to every player who the real boss man is on the Broncos

This is essentially the argument I already noted in the other thread with regard to how it would affect McDaniels ability to govern. I have already addressed it there.

Giving Cutler a new deal will make him an insufferable locker room cancer for the rest of his career.

How so? How would a happy Cutler be a cancer? When has he ever been a cancer? This is a guy who has bought his lineman expensive gifts and personally paid for members of the offensive unit to come to Hawaii. He's taken players out to vacations (Costa Rica) with him. I highly doubt his teammatese feel he is a cancer. The ludicruous notion that after he's been given this nice deal and is much happier that he would somehow become a cancer for no reason is absurd on its very face.

Giving Cutler a new deal now will cut the heart out of the "Team Concept" McDaniels is banking his whole career on.

I don't know what you mean. Explain. McDaniels does not represent the team. He's another individual. We are not all in agreement that what McDaniels wants and believes is what is best for the team, so to the extent that "Team Concept" means doing what McDaniels wants, I don't care for it either way.

There only two choices, make Cutler come in and if necessary sit him and let Sims (or Another ) run the team or trade him on draft day if it looks like the is no hope for him to accept the "Team Concept"

My responses above.

watermock
03-21-2009, 11:18 PM
Jay's REFUSING to talk to the coach without a massive contract extension, or... that's the going line of reasoning and considering Jay had to bring DA-DA to what was supposed to be a one-to-one player/coach meeting, no one seems to be denying that this is the case.


That's BS.

I repeat for the 10th time, and this has been confirmed by Bus Cook, that Cutler isn't nor EVER asked or demanded a new or extended contract.

As far as Cook being there, that is within his rights. HE'S THE YOUNG PLAYER. I certainly would talk to the policw without having my representative there, it's stupid.

It was McDummy that needed his YES MAN there.

What he should of done is bring BOWLEN in if he was so scared of Cook, and then we would know. Settle it then and there.

baja
03-21-2009, 11:20 PM
So. Cal.,

First blue line ..... Yes it is! There is no room for the current personality Cutler is displaying on a "The Team is Everything" squad that is the backbone of what mcDaniels He looses that he might as well resign.

Second blue line...... Simply can't cave in at this juncture, yes this is about money but there is more at stake cave here and you got chaos and bad feelings in the locker room not to mention every Bronco's agent will put the FO on speed dial.

Third blue line. You asked me for my reasons I'm glad you are sharp enough to see this too.


Fourth blue line.... Money will not make Cutler happy I should think you would understand that So Cal., in fact it would make him worse IMO

Fifth blue line..... McDaniels "Team Concept" will only work if you have as QB (team leader) like Brady Cutler is not even close And I'm talking temperament here not skill level.

watermock
03-21-2009, 11:53 PM
Bleh. It was ok but not great. I dont really believe McDaniels is that naive. And btw, this isnt New England where they hadnt won anything before Belichick arrived. Its not like we've never won anything. So, its a mistake for the organization to expect the fanbase to blindly accept everything Pat does and Josh does.

6 AFC rings and 2 Lombardis. Shanny's got 3 lombardis and 5 AFC rings.

Broncos4tw
03-22-2009, 12:37 AM
Jay hasn't earned it?

I don't think people realize what an asset having a franchise QB is. That is the biggest piece of any team's puzzle, and yet, so many don't seem to give a crap if we ditch that piece, and toss together a mediocre team, because this coach is so damn amazing. Yea... he has done SO much for us.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0-3-1815/The-rarity-of-the-Cutler-saga.html


The coach and owner should be doing one thing right now. And that's doing whatever they can to make Jay feel comfortable and back on the team. He is a solid talent, and you don't just throw that away.

Jay doesn't want to play for us? Then make him want to play for us.

It's stupidity in the extreme to throw away an 11th pick because the coach had a hardon for his old QB. That didn't work out. Since that is the case, the primary concern should be getting our franchise QB back.

Just from how Jay has talked, I think it's clear that we COULD get him back, if we really wanted to. But I don't think McD is willing to do that. Which is just plain STUPID.

Stop thinking with your irrational hatred of someone you REALLY DON'T KNOW. And stop with your moronic claims that Jay IS ASKING FOR A HUGE NEW CONTRACT and wants big bucks! If you can produce a source that says this is the case, link it! Otherwise, you are just presenting speculation as fact.

They need Jay. They don't just need him disgruntled... I don't care if it takes McD on his knees apologizing.. DO IT! If Simms or any other 3rd rate QB starts for us, we will be set back YEARS! Don't you get that people?

Archer81
03-22-2009, 12:58 AM
Jay hasn't earned it?

I don't think people realize what an asset having a franchise QB is. That is the biggest piece of any team's puzzle, and yet, so many don't seem to give a crap if we ditch that piece, and toss together a mediocre team, because this coach is so damn amazing. Yea... he has done SO much for us.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/afcwest/0-3-1815/The-rarity-of-the-Cutler-saga.html


The coach and owner should be doing one thing right now. And that's doing whatever they can to make Jay feel comfortable and back on the team. He is a solid talent, and you don't just throw that away.

Jay doesn't want to play for us? Then make him want to play for us.

It's stupidity in the extreme to throw away an 11th pick because the coach had a hardon for his old QB. That didn't work out. Since that is the case, the primary concern should be getting our franchise QB back.

Just from how Jay has talked, I think it's clear that we COULD get him back, if we really wanted to. But I don't think McD is willing to do that. Which is just plain STUPID.

Stop thinking with your irrational hatred of someone you REALLY DON'T KNOW. And stop with your moronic claims that Jay IS ASKING FOR A HUGE NEW CONTRACT and wants big bucks! If you can produce a source that says this is the case, link it! Otherwise, you are just presenting speculation as fact.

They need Jay. They don't just need him disgruntled... I don't care if it takes McD on his knees apologizing.. DO IT! If Simms or any other 3rd rate QB starts for us, we will be set back YEARS! Don't you get that people?


No, Jay has not earned an extension. He makes it to the playoffs, then yes, pay the man. We overpaid QBs in the past who were not worth the $ and got burned for it.


:Broncos:

SoCalBronco
03-22-2009, 01:27 AM
No, Jay has not earned an extension. He makes it to the playoffs, then yes, pay the man. We overpaid QBs in the past who were not worth the $ and got burned for it.


:Broncos:

These are weak arguments.

The question presented is whether Jay Cutler has earned an extension. You're sort of engrafting this "well,the team as a whole has to have success for him to get it" test onto it artificially. As a matter of basic fairness, Jay Cutler should be judged on his own merits. It's not his fault that the defense is worst in the NFL. You're engaging in this very simplistic 17-20 analysis and you are stopping there prematurely. Each is judged on his OWN. The statistics have already been bandied about in detail. It has been conclusively shown that when the defense is decent, he has an outstanding record, and when it is just halfway decent, he still has a very good record. On an individual basis, his statistics in addition to his comeback wins obviously militate in favor of an extension. This whole "well we arent in the playoffs, so I'm going to blame him" has the same flawed thinking that our rivals had when they said Elway will never be great because he never won the Super Bowl. John Elway didn't win the Super Bowl the first three times out because he had to do everything himself and the rest of the team was not up to par against well balanced and highly skilled NFC Champions. Just as it was wrong to blame him for that, it is wrong to blame Cutler for the team's lack of success. We look at it on an individual basis, only.

In many ways, the other argument that you presented is even weaker. That we paid other QBs and they failed is of no relevance here. By this line of thought, we could never "pay" anyone at any position so long as at least one other individual got a sizeable contract in the past and fizzled out shortly thereafter. Your approach disincentivizes a fact intensive inquiry as to the merits of each individual QB on their own, which is exactly what the inquiry should be. Even on the merits, the comparison with Griese and Plummer is inapposite here. Plummer was paid at the very outset. He got a brand new deal when he came here. With regard to Griese, while he too was given a contract after his third season, he had only one truly good season, which was in 2000. He did not play at all in 1998 with the exception of a few snaps in the Philadelphia game. His 1999 season was mediocre from a statistical point of view. It was only in 2000 did he finally break out. Griese, while a very smart player, lacked even above average physical gifts. In the instant case, Jay has been successful each year. It was not nothing to mediocre to good. Rather, with the exception of his first start against Seattle, he played pretty decently as a rookie and then took it up a notch in 2007 and then took it up an even higher notch in 2008. It wasn't this sort of one year wonder. There was an initial high floor displayed and then considerable progress on a yearly basis. He also possesses super physical gifts which might make him a HOF QB one day. I think we all agree that this is well within his ceiling. That's worth something. There is inherent value there, because you know that if you can get the guy there, you WILL win SBs. The other guys who were paid did not have ceilings that high.

watermock
03-22-2009, 01:32 AM
We overpaid Simms.

It's a slap in thae face to pay more (this year) for a QB that was as much in the NFL as Tater tot.

Regardless, again, Cutler has not demanfed an extension. That would be refused out of hand at this point anyway, especially with an uncapped year next. Grow a brain!

Regardless, Cutler got exactly what hwe deserved in a rook contract. He's allready gotten his SB, and gets big roster bonuses next 2 years, next year is when we should of front loaded his new contract, during the uncapped year.

Buy a vowel for Christ Sake.

montrose
03-23-2009, 09:55 AM
I'm a big Adam Schein fan but at this point I'm of the mindset that what's done is done and I'm ready to move toward a solution. I personally think there's a ton of blame to go around to all parties:

Josh McDaniels/Brian Xanders: Botching the trade, bad PR afterward
Pat Bowlen: Not hiring a coach whose system fits the team's QB, inconsistent statements
Jay Cutler/Bus Cook: Whining through the media, refusing to show up

With that, what's done is done and I'm ready to end the blame game and move on to a resolution. I never thought putting Brett Favre 2.0 into Tom Brady's offense was a wise idea, but if the powers-that-be think he can win them championships then they need to do what they can to get this resolved - even if that means a new contract. If they don't believe he's "the guy", which I don't think they are sold on for Xs and Os reasons as much as attitude/leadership, then get as much value as you can and lets move on. I just want to get this over with, one way or the other, as the last thing I want to see happen (which is what I think will, unfortunately) is an uncomfortable 2009 with Cutler at the helm only to be moved after the season and we start all over again in 2010.