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View Full Version : Broncos had private meeting with Orakpo.


Drek
03-20-2009, 09:46 AM
Orakpo just said it on NFL radio. Also met with the Browns.

TheReverend
03-20-2009, 10:12 AM
You sure it wasn't Bus Cook leaking it?

no-pseudo-fan
03-20-2009, 10:18 AM
You sure it wasn't Bus Cook leaking it?

Bus Cook would leak that we secretly met with Sanchez.

montrose
03-20-2009, 10:19 AM
He and Brown have been shooting up the boards. I've seen those guys as high as #3 and no lower than #9. I'd be shocked if Orakpo fell to us. I think there's a chance on Brown and Maybin but it wouldn't surprise me at all three are gone before #12.

socalorado
03-20-2009, 11:21 AM
He and Brown have been shooting up the boards. I've seen those guys as high as #3 and no lower than #9. I'd be shocked if Orakpo fell to us. I think there's a chance on Brown and Maybin but it wouldn't surprise me at all three are gone before #12.

Why would you want maybin at #12 anyways? Huge reach for him there.
Not remotely ready for the NFL, and will need to go to a team that can groom him. DEN already has Moss, thats enough with the 3rd down situational DEs.

meangene
03-20-2009, 12:44 PM
He and Brown have been shooting up the boards. I've seen those guys as high as #3 and no lower than #9. I'd be shocked if Orakpo fell to us. I think there's a chance on Brown and Maybin but it wouldn't surprise me at all three are gone before #12.

But, Orakpo could be there for us at Cleveland's #5. :~ohyah!:

Gcver2ver3
03-20-2009, 01:00 PM
But, Orakpo could be there for us at Cleveland's #5. :~ohyah!:

true...i prefer Brown btw...

montrose
03-20-2009, 01:28 PM
Why would you want maybin at #12 anyways?

I wouldn't, was just thinking out loud.

But, Orakpo could be there for us at Cleveland's #5. :~ohyah!:

Either he or Brown would be.

Kaylore
03-20-2009, 01:47 PM
On this board you'd think Orakpo wasn't worth a seventh rounder.

Drek
03-20-2009, 01:52 PM
On this board you'd think Orakpo wasn't worth a seventh rounder.

I'm real iffy on him myself, mostly because I see a lot of Tim Crowder in him. Great athlete with mediocre at best fundamentals who lives off being physically superior to those around him.

We've got a lot better coaching situation here than what Crowder has had though, Orakpo could really blossom under a LB expert like Nolan. Thats why I have no doubt that if Nolan likes one of the LB/DE hybrids at #12 then its a smart pick (or Maualuga for that matter).

TheReverend
03-20-2009, 01:52 PM
On this board you'd think Maybin wasn't worth a seventh rounder.

Fixed

meangene
03-20-2009, 02:06 PM
I'm real iffy on him myself, mostly because I see a lot of Tim Crowder in him. Great athlete with mediocre at best fundamentals who lives off being physically superior to those around him.

I don't see a comparison between the two other than the Texas connection. I think Orakpo is a much more explosive quick-twitch athlete. So is Brown. I prefer Orakpo because he is naturally bigger for a 3-4 backer.

BroncoMan4ever
03-20-2009, 04:41 PM
Why would you want maybin at #12 anyways? Huge reach for him there.
Not remotely ready for the NFL, and will need to go to a team that can groom him. DEN already has Moss, thats enough with the 3rd down situational DEs.

agreed. i would possibly be interested in Maybin at 12, if we were already strong on defense and could give him a year or 2 to get up to speed and be ready to perform, but with the state of our defense, we need to hit on our draft and in the 1st find a guy who can come in and contribute from day 1.

Kaylore
03-20-2009, 06:38 PM
I'm real iffy on him myself, mostly because I see a lot of Tim Crowder in him. Great athlete with mediocre at best fundamentals who lives off being physically superior to those around him.

We've got a lot better coaching situation here than what Crowder has had though, Orakpo could really blossom under a LB expert like Nolan. Thats why I have no doubt that if Nolan likes one of the LB/DE hybrids at #12 then its a smart pick (or Maualuga for that matter).

Well, Crowder was never a great athlete. He was anything but explosive at Texas. More like a workhorse that finally learned how to rush the passer his senior year. Orakpo actually reminds me more of Jarvis Moss. Not that that's much better.

Drek
03-20-2009, 08:06 PM
I don't see a comparison between the two other than the Texas connection. I think Orakpo is a much more explosive quick-twitch athlete. So is Brown. I prefer Orakpo because he is naturally bigger for a 3-4 backer.

Thats the problem. Orakpo, Crowder, Michael Huff, Vince Young, DJ Johnson, etc. all have the same problems in common, primarily that none of them have the kind of fundamentals that are necessary to succeed at the NFL level.

Mostly because UT doesn't seem to give a **** about teaching them and would instead just as soon send out a team composed of the best athletes they can find and win on their athletic merits alone.

meangene
03-21-2009, 05:28 AM
Thats the problem. Orakpo, Crowder, Michael Huff, Vince Young, DJ Johnson, etc. all have the same problems in common, primarily that none of them have the kind of fundamentals that are necessary to succeed at the NFL level.

Mostly because UT doesn't seem to give a **** about teaching them and would instead just as soon send out a team composed of the best athletes they can find and win on their athletic merits alone.

Maybe, but I think those kinds of things can be taught to players with the right attitude and skill package. I think Orakpo has that. And, he has shown far more athleticism that Crowder ever did. I understand your skepticism with UT players, but I still think you need to look at them individually. Actually, my first choice (after Curry) for the rush linebacker position in this draft is Robert Ayers out of Tennessee. Reminds me of a young James Harrison. He hasn't played that position in college so he will need some work also.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 07:20 AM
Thats the problem. Orakpo, Crowder, Michael Huff, Vince Young, DJ Johnson, etc. all have the same problems in common, primarily that none of them have the kind of fundamentals that are necessary to succeed at the NFL level.

Mostly because UT doesn't seem to give a **** about teaching them and would instead just as soon send out a team composed of the best athletes they can find and win on their athletic merits alone.

For raw curiousity's sake:

With all your Longhorns hate, what the Crowder at Texas avy...?

Drek
03-21-2009, 08:14 AM
For raw curiousity's sake:

With all your Longhorns hate, what the Crowder at Texas avy...?

I've had avys disabled for a long time. Back when I did keep it enabled I would pick a rookie in each draft class to put in it. Year before Crowder it was Tony Sheffler.

Crowder is what really iced my hate of the Longhorns as draft prospects. He was an amazing athlete coming out with tons of potential, then he gets on the field and its clear the guy doesn't understand a damn thing about technique. Thats about when I stopped wanting the best athletes and decided this team needed real football players.

If you could put Dumervil's brain in Tim Crowder's body we'd have the best DE in the NFL, bar none.

FYI, even though I never have them enabled myself I tried to update it following this draft class with Peyton Hillis, somehow I failed to save the update correctly.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 08:26 AM
I've had avys disabled for a long time. Back when I did keep it enabled I would pick a rookie in each draft class to put in it. Year before Crowder it was Tony Sheffler.

Crowder is what really iced my hate of the Longhorns as draft prospects. He was an amazing athlete coming out with tons of potential, then he gets on the field and its clear the guy doesn't understand a damn thing about technique. Thats about when I stopped wanting the best athletes and decided this team needed real football players.

If you could put Dumervil's brain in Tim Crowder's body we'd have the best DE in the NFL, bar none.

FYI, even though I never have them enabled myself I tried to update it following this draft class with Peyton Hillis, somehow I failed to save the update correctly.


Fair enough. I still don't understand your praise of Crowder's athleticism, though. If anything, I'd say his #1 collegiate attribute was getting by on just being bigger than everyone else at his level. I think if you put Elvis's ATHLETICISM in Crowder's body, we'd have another Mario Williams, imo.

Kaylore
03-21-2009, 08:39 AM
Fair enough. I still don't understand your praise of Crowder's athleticism, though. If anything, I'd say his #1 collegiate attribute was getting by on just being bigger than everyone else at his level. I think if you put Elvis's ATHLETICISM in Crowder's body, we'd have another Mario Williams, imo.

That's the point I was trying to make. He put up modest numbers at the combine and was never a speed guy.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 08:47 AM
That's the point I was trying to make. He put up modest numbers at the combine and was never a speed guy.

I don't think at Texas or especially here he's shown anything that could remotely be considered "elite athleticism".

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 09:51 AM
I really think people are missing Orakpo's weaknesses in this thread. For Once, this is a Texas DL that has heart, technique, and a motor to finish every play. That is the standard Anti-Texas argument.

What Orakpo lacks is elite explosiveness off the snap, the single most important quality in a DL. He also has had durability concerns as he missed games games in both season's as a fulltime starter, and both were knee injuries.

For what its worth, Crowder had as good or better explosiveness than Orakpo @ Texas. What he did not have was the intangibles that Orakpo has.

For the record, Crowder was 6035 and 272 and ran a 4.69 40 with 1.59 10 @ the combine officially.

Orakpo was 6030 and 263 and ran a 4.63 40 with a 1.58 10.

Those are awesome numbers for a DE in both cases. The problem is Orakpo is not explosive off the snap to go with those numbers. He got the majority of his big plays off of effort and hustle rather than beating his guy off the snap. Crowder was wildly inconsistent and that was the reason he dropped so much compared to his numbers.

The thing is I would take Orakpo and I am well known for not liking Texas players because of their mental makeup. Orakpo passes that with flying colors and Ithink He will be a very good DE/OLB for whoever he plays in the NFL. I just highly doubt he will be an elite one because he lacks the most important skill for a DL, first step and initial explosion.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 10:06 AM
Med- Do you have Orakpo's heart-weight from the combine? I projected it to be 12 ounces.

:)

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 10:13 AM
Med- Do you have Orakpo's heart-weight from the combine? I projected it to be 12 ounces.

:)

Not the specifics, but I heard it was three times bigger than the Crowder's and Okam's combined ;D

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 10:14 AM
Not the specifics, but I heard it was three times bigger than the Crowder's and Okam's combined ;D

:rofl:

I can't resist laughing at any mention of Frank Okam's name.

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 10:18 AM
:rofl:

I can't resist laughing at any mention of Frank Okam's name.

Its really sad. He is an outstanding talent that is learning what it takes to play at this level. He was not that bad last year, but he was not ready to play when he came out as a Freakin' Senior.

I really think he might make it. However, he is just another in a long list....

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 10:20 AM
Its really sad. He is an outstanding talent that is learning what it takes to play at this level. He was not that bad last year, but he was not ready to play when he came out as a Freakin' Senior.

I really think he might make it. However, he is just another in a long list....

A list rivaling USC's. A fantastic assembly of names sooned to be joined by the likes of Cushing and Matthews. :welcome:

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 10:22 AM
A list rivaling USC's. A fantastic assembly of names sooned to be joined by the likes of Maualuga. :welcome:

You knew, as soon as you typed it, I would fix it for you!

Matthews is going to be good right off the bat because he is a grinder that is just now coming into his physicality. I like Cushing too.

The other guy better hope a great defense hides hi sass the first year :thumbsup:

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 10:24 AM
You knew, as soon as you typed it, I would fix it for you!

Matthews is going to be good right off the bat because he is a grinder that is just now coming into his physicality. I like Cushing too.

The other guy better hope a great defense hides hi sass the first year :thumbsup:

No vomiting smiley available. Use your imagination.

Now please repeat after me:

"Over...

...scouted"

And you know Cushing and Matthews, if they played in the Big Ten, would be third rounders AT BEST.

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 10:34 AM
No vomiting smiley available. Use your imagination.

Now please repeat after me:

"Over...

...scouted"

And you know Cushing and Matthews, if they played in the Big Ten, would be third rounders AT BEST.

Not really overscouted, the media still loves his ass. And the exact same thing could be said of Rey about playing in the Big Ten. Laurinitis and he would be in the same boat. Both slow ass MLB's trying to make it :thumbs:

As far as Cushing and Matthews, the whole freaking defense was not funneled at them like Rey. And, they still made plays and made a big impact in their assignments. When that was stripped off of Rey In Mobile he looked like a fish out of water. He struggled to cover mediocre players, got pushed around in the run game, and became a nonfactor.

In Mobile, both Cushing and Matthews looked comfortable with NFL reads and assignments while being solid if not exceptional in coverage. They even ran Matthews in a lot of strong side stack and he killed several plays at the POA even though he never did that @ USC.

I'll take my chances with either of those two before I would let Rey into my front seven.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 10:36 AM
Not really overscouted, the media still loves his ass. And the exact same thing could be said of Rey about playing in the Big Ten. Laurinitis and he would be in the same boat. Both slow ass MLB's trying to make it :thumbs:

As far as Cushing and Matthews, the whole freaking defense was not funneled at them like Rey. And, they still made plays and made a big impact in their assignments. When that was stripped off of Rey In Mobile he looked like a fish out of water. He struggled to cover mediocre players, got pushed around in the run game, and became a nonfactor.

In Mobile, both Cushing and Matthews looked comfortable with NFL reads and assignments while being solid if not exceptional in coverage. They even ran Matthews in a lot of strong side stack and he killed several plays at the POA even though he never did that @ USC.

I'll take my chances with either of those two before I would let Rey into my front seven.

Lofa Tatupu 4.84 as a 4-3 MLB taking deeper drops, fyi ;)

Laurinitis will be a very good pro player, but Rey's gonna be a wrecking ball.

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 10:46 AM
Lofa Tatupu 4.84 as a 4-3 MLB taking deeper drops, fyi ;)

Laurinitis will be a very good pro player, but Rey's gonna be a wrecking ball.

Actually, that is why Rey is overrated. People severely underrated Tatupu because of his speed. The thing is he plays faster on the field because he is exceptioanlly smart and instinctive, therefore negating his 40 speed in getting 10-15 yards to where he needs to go.

Watch the difference between Tatupu and Maualuga on PA and counters and you will see what I am talking about. Rey's reads are slower and he does not burst laterally like Tatupu when he makes up his mind. His functional speed does not approach Tatupu, but their real speeds are similar.

Rey may very well be a wrecking ball, but he may very well miss a lot of plays while doing it. He reminds me of everything I dislike in the sportscenter era, big hitter who gives up just as much or more than he produces. Throw in poor coverage instincts in a pass happy league and this aint your daddy's NFL for him to play in ;D

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 10:52 AM
Actually, that is why Rey is overrated. People severely underrated Tatupu because of his speed. The thing is he plays faster on the field because he is exceptioanlly smart and instinctive, therefore negating his 40 speed in getting 10-15 yards to where he needs to go.

Watch the difference between Tatupu and Maualuga on PA and counters and you will see what I am talking about. Rey's reads are slower and he does not burst laterally like Tatupu when he makes up his mind. His functional speed does not approach Tatupu, but their real speeds are similar.

Rey may very well be a wrecking ball, but he may very well miss a lot of plays while doing it. He reminds me of everything I dislike in the sportscenter era, big hitter who gives up just as much or more than he produces. Throw in poor coverage instincts in a pass happy league and this aint your daddy's NFL for him to play in ;D


I agree with SOME of this, but I think you're over-exaggerating his concerns. Playing him inside on a 3-4 removes just about everyone of his "weaknesses".

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 11:04 AM
I agree with SOME of this, but I think you're over-exaggerating his concerns. Playing him inside on a 3-4 removes just about everyone of his "weaknesses".

It also limits him as a player and makes him less valuable. He could be a solid Inside LB in a 3-4, But I would want no part of him in a 4-3. He just does not have the skillset that Tatupu did coming out to play right away, unless he play as a protected SILB in a 3-4.

Also, it excludes him from over 50% of the snaps on defense because there is No way he can play in the Nickle. He would be a huge gap in the middle of the defense against a spread offense as well. OC's would make him play in space and against slot WR's or RB's in the flat. He would not win many of those matchups IMHO.

So, he may be a big thumper Mike. But IMHO he is 20 years too late to play the MIKE in the NFL. His other skills are 3-4th round level in Today's NFL.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 11:31 AM
It also limits him as a player and makes him less valuable. He could be a solid Inside LB in a 3-4, But I would want no part of him in a 4-3. He just does not have the skillset that Tatupu did coming out to play right away, unless he play as a protected SILB in a 3-4.

Also, it excludes him from over 50% of the snaps on defense because there is No way he can play in the Nickle. He would be a huge gap in the middle of the defense against a spread offense as well. OC's would make him play in space and against slot WR's or RB's in the flat. He would not win many of those matchups IMHO.

So, he may be a big thumper Mike. But IMHO he is 20 years too late to play the MIKE in the NFL. His other skills are 3-4th round level in Today's NFL.

I couldn't disagree more with just about your entire assesment.

He may not compare to other track stars like DJ Williams in shorts, but on the football field, he's a superior player.

DJ, btw, had 0 picks in his career at the U... which has certainly translated to his performance in nickel packages at the pro level.

Rey, the guy who "can't read plays", can't handle the nickel, gets fooled by PA, etc, has 5. Nothing world beating, but also dominant compared to Steroid Cushing's 1, and Matthews 0.

There's merit to your funnel argument... but you don't funnel plays to the inferior linebacker. That's not even open to discussion. Even with the funneled argument he's dramatically out performed the other players over a longer span of time.

My main contention with Rey's over-scouting:
I understand the USC D especially has no dearth of talent, but despite losing a collegiate level star like Sed Ellis, he's actually been MORE productive this past season, and played better than last year where he was looked at as the premier LB. People like you advocate playing that extra season and not coming out early, but in situations like this where everyone has those high hopes and then nit-picks and over analyzes ANY poor plays, they become over-scouted and drop for literally NO reason.

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 12:02 PM
I couldn't disagree more with just about your entire assesment.

He may not compare to other track stars like DJ Williams in shorts, but on the football field, he's a superior player.

DJ, btw, had 0 picks in his career at the U... which has certainly translated to his performance in nickel packages at the pro level.

Rey, the guy who "can't read plays", can't handle the nickel, gets fooled by PA, etc, has 5. Nothing world beating, but also dominant compared to Steroid Cushing's 1, and Matthews 0.

There's merit to your funnel argument... but you don't funnel plays to the inferior linebacker. That's not even open to discussion. Even with the funneled argument he's dramatically out performed the other players over a longer span of time.

My main contention with Rey's over-scouting:
I understand the USC D especially has no dearth of talent, but despite losing a collegiate level star like Sed Ellis, he's actually been MORE productive this past season, and played better than last year where he was looked at as the premier LB. People like you advocate playing that extra season and not coming out early, but in situations like this where everyone has those high hopes and then nit-picks and over analyzes ANY poor plays, they become over-scouted and drop for literally NO reason.

Picks do not mean you can cover. Period, absolutely no argument. They prove you can catch the ball when thrown to you. Rey had a lot more chances because teams threw at him more and the pressure scheme USC uses made his repsonsibility the Hot Read a lot. He had a lot stuff thrown his way for that very reason and this is college level where their defense was very dominant. The funnel explains that production. It SHOULD be there. The others had production without help. Remember USC's defense was on the field very little last year because they were so good at getting off on third down's, all their numbers suffer because of that. Nevertheless, their were plays made by all of them.

As for DJ, Never been a fan of his and you know it. Guy looks like adonis, plays like Jane. Never had the mentality to be a standout NFL player. Always has had the physical tools, but never the mental ability.

Rey had a Very similar role at USC as that of Derrick Johnson when he was a MIKE at Texas. Reads were simple, things were funneled, and the responsibility was minimal. When Johnson got to the NFL he struggled making NFL reads and was wildly inconsistent, because things had always been easy for him at Texas. Same thing applies here and Rey is NOT the natural athlete Johnson was and is.

I still do not see where Rey is more than a thumper in the NFL. This aint college anymore. Its about projecting skillsets that will survive the next level. I said the same thing about Johnson when he came out. The same thing about Roy Williams at Safety when he came out. The same thing about Jamal Anderson at DE when he came out. These were players where scheme made them look superior in college but lacked the requisite skillsets to transition easily or at all to the NFL. I worry he is a product of the system when confronted with superior athletes will struggle mightily since his mental skills are limited compared to what is needed to make the Jump.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 12:05 PM
Picks do not mean you can cover. Period, absolutely no argument. They prove you can catch the ball when thrown to you. Rey had a lot more chances because teams threw at him more and the pressure scheme USC uses made his repsonsibility the Hot Read a lot. He had a lot stuff thrown his way for that very reason and this is college level where their defense was very dominant. The funnel explains that production. It SHOULD be there. The others had production without help. Remember USC's defense was on the field very little last year because they were so good at getting off on third down's, all their numbers suffer because of that. Nevertheless, their were plays made by all of them.

As for DJ, Never been a fan of his and you know it. Guy looks like adonis, plays like Jane. Never had the mentality to be a standout NFL player. Always has had the physical tools, but never the mental ability.

Rey had a Very similar role at USC as that of Derrick Johnson when he was a MIKE at Texas. Reads were simple, things were funneled, and the responsibility was minimal. When Johnson got to the NFL he struggled making NFL reads and was wildly inconsistent, because things had always been easy for him at Texas. Same thing applies here and Rey is NOT the natural athlete Johnson was and is.

I still do not see where Rey is more than a thumper in the NFL. This aint college anymore. Its about projecting skillsets that will survive the next level. I said the same thing about Johnson when he came out. The same thing about Roy Williams at Safety when he came out. The same thing about Jamal Anderson at DE when he came out. These were players where scheme made them look superior in college but lacked the requisite skillsets to transition easily or at all to the NFL. I worry he is a product of the system when confronted with superior athletes will struggle mightily since his mental skills are limited compared to what is needed to make the Jump.

We need to put this discussion on hold for a few years. We've already brought out and fired the big guns, so no need to push it until it devolves to "Med, I'm voting you out in Survivor", or worse, "My dad can beat up your dad's ashes".

For the record, I blame you for bringing this all up in the first place. I win. ;D

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 12:22 PM
We need to put this discussion on hold for a few years. We've already brought out and fired the big guns, so no need to push it until it devolves to "Med, I'm voting you out in Survivor", or worse, "My dad can beat up your dad's ashes".

For the record, I blame you for bringing this all up in the first place. I win. ;D

I thought you had already been voted out ???

Oh, sorry. Carry on ;D

barryr
03-21-2009, 12:40 PM
There's no doubting Orakpo's physical gifts, but the league has had many guys come and go who had great measurables, but they never did much with them on the field. I don't know if that's his case or not, he definately has the look of a 3-4 OLB type.

Mediator12
03-21-2009, 01:11 PM
There's no doubting Orakpo's physical gifts, but the league has had many guys come and go who had great measurables, but they never did much with them on the field. I don't know if that's his case or not, he definately has the look of a 3-4 OLB type.

I think that is what people are missing with Orakpo. He is not all about Physical gifts. In fact, his production comes from being a high motor, effort player versus a physical freak. Yet he does have solid physical credentials, just not the elite First step that most elite DL have.

RocBronc
03-21-2009, 07:18 PM
So Mediator12, who does have the skill set that translates to the NFL in this draft?

Inkana7
03-21-2009, 07:29 PM
Rey Maualauga and James Laurinaitis both suck. Especially "Jump on Pile" Laurinaitis.

Haroldthebarrel
03-22-2009, 01:01 PM
I think that is what people are missing with Orakpo. He is not all about Physical gifts. In fact, his production comes from being a high motor, effort player versus a physical freak. Yet he does have solid physical credentials, just not the elite First step that most elite DL have.

Can the first step be significantly trained or just to some extent?

How come players like Kampman who looked like a slow smart end now plays pretty fast. How come some players develop into good pass rushers even though in college they didnt seem to have the natural quick first step.
As far as your (warranted) gripe with the likes of Burney and co, how do you train up a player to become a good nfl ready defensive lineman?
How would you think it should be done, and/or what do they guys who know what they are doing doing?(gosh what a bad sentence)

To the point of Malouga. I think players like him are overrated to an extent in that they are considered first round talents but really are extremely dependant upon coming to the right team and system.
If he somehow goes to the Eagles, Ravens, Titans and god forbid he should fall to the Steelers. In those scenarios along with a few other pretty decent situations I say his shot of busting is low.
He goes to the Lions or the cover 2 teams I think his learning course is steep making him a likely bust candidate.
That and any team changing defensive systems one or more times in his first three years make him even more of a bust canididate. Especially if the new system is completely different.
Sadly, looking at our instability, the chance of loosing Cutler and many warranted question marks around McDaniels, to me this makes Denver a situation where his chance of busting or disappointing is high.

Mediator12
03-22-2009, 02:23 PM
Can the first step be significantly trained or just to some extent?

How come players like Kampman who looked like a slow smart end now plays pretty fast. How come some players develop into good pass rushers even though in college they didnt seem to have the natural quick first step.
As far as your (warranted) gripe with the likes of Burney and co, how do you train up a player to become a good nfl ready defensive lineman?
How would you think it should be done, and/or what do they guys who know what they are doing doing?(gosh what a bad sentence)

To the point of Malouga. I think players like him are overrated to an extent in that they are considered first round talents but really are extremely dependant upon coming to the right team and system.
If he somehow goes to the Eagles, Ravens, Titans and god forbid he should fall to the Steelers. In those scenarios along with a few other pretty decent situations I say his shot of busting is low.
He goes to the Lions or the cover 2 teams I think his learning course is steep making him a likely bust candidate.
That and any team changing defensive systems one or more times in his first three years make him even more of a bust canididate. Especially if the new system is completely different.
Sadly, looking at our instability, the chance of loosing Cutler and many warranted question marks around McDaniels, to me this makes Denver a situation where his chance of busting or disappointing is high.

It's both. The Elite DL have a natural first step explosion, but even then it has to be refined, trained, and coached up. Guys like Warren Sapp, Charles Haley (who by the way played backward technique in SF and DAL), Demarcus Ware, Bruce Smith, Reggie White, Dwight Freeney, etc have that step that moves the Line of scrimmage into the backfield.

Guys like Kampman, Aaron Schobel, Justin Smith, Reggie Hayward, Bert Berry, did not come into the league with an elite first step, but worked to get a good one. It can be brought out of players. Jarvis Moss had it coming out of Florida, Gaines Adams has it, Mark Anderson of the Bears has it, but it has not been fully developed with them yet either. So, there is hope that DL can get better, but to be Elite Hall of Fame level you have to have that natural Elite first step.

Dumervil has a good one, but he is very similar in style to Orakpo. They are technique driven, motor and and effort players. The biggest difference between them is that Orakpo is also a very solid run defender at the POA and in pursuit. That makes him a much more complete DE/ OLB.

As for the training, it comes from good offseason workouts and development. Every team runs "get Off" drills, but its being able to properly correct and instruct players how to do it better. Its getting them to do it right and be natural with it. However, as anyone who has ever coached will tell you, knowledge does not make a skill. The player has to get it, refine it, hone it, and then keep developing it. That is why good assistant coaches are worth their weight in gold. Good coaches and good players make a formidable tandem. They have to work together, believe in each other, trust one another, fight together, and work real damn hard. And even then, they still have to go out and execute any given Sunday.