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broncoblue
03-20-2009, 06:13 AM
http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/sport/4217987.Blackburn_Rovers_fans_St_George_s_flag_con fiscated_in__racist_symbol__row/

cant beleive this ,it makes me ashamed of my country,imagine if this was in your country!!!!

TheReverend
03-20-2009, 06:33 AM
How is that possibly construed as "racist" instead of "nationalist"?

Am I missing something?

broncoblue
03-20-2009, 06:41 AM
Not missing anything at all,my country has gone politically correct mad.You cant upset the "non english or brits".Its madness,some schools sing the nursery ryme baa baa black sheep have you any wool ...as BAA BAA RAINBOW SHEEP.Its crazy some towns are not allowed to put christmas decorations up in case they upset the muslims and some subways refuse to serve bacon for the same reason.

El Guapo
03-20-2009, 06:47 AM
Its the end of world. seriously.

Broncos_OTM
03-20-2009, 06:47 AM
Not missing anything at all,my country has gone politically correct mad.You cant upset the "non english or brits".Its madness,some schools sing the nursery ryme baa baa black sheep have you any wool ...as BAA BAA RAINBOW SHEEP.Its crazy some towns are not allowed to put christmas decorations up in case they upset the muslims and some subways refuse to serve bacon for the same reason.
Thats because most of the football hooligans are racist skinheads. Thats what happens when you let a bunch of left wing liberals run the show.

broncoblue
03-20-2009, 06:50 AM
Thats because most of the football hooligans are racist skinheads. Thats what happens when you let a bunch of left wing liberals run the show.

20 years ago it was the case...ive taken my lad since he was 3 years old and hes now 10 and weve never seen trouble.

TheReverend
03-20-2009, 07:09 AM
Not missing anything at all,my country has gone politically correct mad.You cant upset the "non english or brits".Its madness,some schools sing the nursery ryme baa baa black sheep have you any wool ...as BAA BAA RAINBOW SHEEP.Its crazy some towns are not allowed to put christmas decorations up in case they upset the muslims and some subways refuse to serve bacon for the same reason.

Is nationalism referred to as racist across the pond...?

broncoblue
03-20-2009, 07:12 AM
racist is being against "others". whether it be skin colour,religeon or nationality.But its getting to the stage were its pathetic.

Dagmar
03-20-2009, 07:21 AM
To be fair, being English would suck.

atomicbloke
03-20-2009, 07:56 AM
Way to sensationalize a non issue dude....

You make it sound as if there is a nationwide ban of the national flag in the whole of england....

All that happened is some dim witted management bureacracy decided to not have any national flags in a soccer stadium to prevent recent crowd trouble due to the same reason.....

big deal.... its not like the British parliament banned it everywhere or anything..... its not the end of the world..... lots of crazy things happen in British soccer stadiums.... but its not representative of the whole of the UK....

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2009, 08:20 AM
To be fair, being English would suck.

**** you Scotsmen. :P

Kaylore
03-20-2009, 08:27 AM
**** you Scotsmen. :P

:spit: He's a roddy oat-eater!!!!

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2009, 08:37 AM
:spit: He's a roddy oat-eater!!!!

LOL.

I am descended from Anglesey. Sure it was in the mid 1700's in Gwalchmai, but I'll take no lip from a Scotsmen. :)

penguintheory
03-20-2009, 08:48 AM
While this is clearly a ridiculous hard-line stance on the rule, it's well known that European football has a huge problem with actual racism.

DrFate
03-20-2009, 09:19 AM
Don't worry blue - the US isn't far behind

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2009, 09:22 AM
Don't worry blue - the US isn't far behind

I don't agree with racist tripe, but it does boil down to thought crime.

Jens1893
03-20-2009, 09:31 AM
I thought this was about the lad in Nottingham who now refuses to serve customers who don´t speak English. Wonder how Scots are gonna get on there.

BroncoFanatic
03-20-2009, 09:45 AM
When British soldiers returning from Iraq are booed and heckled by Muslim malcontents, called baby killers etc. That is ok, free speech. People in the crowd who take exception and argue with them are arrested, there is something stinky in jolly old England.

Dagmar
03-20-2009, 09:48 AM
ScotsMAN. I am only one person guys!

UKBronco
03-20-2009, 10:23 AM
When British soldiers returning from Iraq are booed and heckled by Muslim malcontents, called baby killers etc. That is ok, free speech. People in the crowd who take exception and argue with them are arrested, there is something stinky in jolly old England.

Ahh, yes. There most certainly is. The one thing I envy of the US is the general level of respect the troops get from the masses. I haven't been subjected to the kind of attitude displayed against 2nd Batallion Anglian Regiment, or similar experiences to those endured at Peterborough in '08. It takes a certain kind of restraint not to react and 'crack on'.

Strangely, the attitude towards the Armed Forces in this country is actually pretty high at the moment, but clearly we aren't pleasing the 'peace loving' muslims.

Off with my head.

UKBronco
03-20-2009, 10:24 AM
ScotsMAN. I am only one person guys!

One too many!

Get back over yer wall! :thumbs:

Archer81
03-20-2009, 10:27 AM
Right...the basis for the modern Union Jack is racist? WTF man.

:Broncos:

Archer81
03-20-2009, 10:29 AM
Way to sensationalize a non issue dude....

You make it sound as if there is a nationwide ban of the national flag in the whole of england....

All that happened is some dim witted management bureacracy decided to not have any national flags in a soccer stadium to prevent recent crowd trouble due to the same reason.....

big deal.... its not like the British parliament banned it everywhere or anything..... its not the end of the world..... lots of crazy things happen in British soccer stadiums.... but its not representative of the whole of the UK....



You dont think banning an English flag in England is that big a deal?

:Broncos:

atomicbloke
03-20-2009, 10:47 AM
You dont think banning an English flag in England is that big a deal?

:Broncos:

English flags aren't banned in England.

Banning all flags from a private soccer stadium is at owner's discretion and is certainly not representative of the whole of England.

DenverBrit
03-20-2009, 10:58 AM
Interesting when you look at the stadium involved:

Arsenal’s Emirates Stadium.

LOL No agenda there.

alpine
03-20-2009, 11:08 AM
Those who took the trouble to read will notice that it is a blanket ban on national flags in a stadium located in an area of very mixed heritage (the original trouble was caused by a Turkish Cypriot flag and Greek Cypriots protesting about it).

It is also not entirely a coincidence that this "outrage" over the action comes from an area which is known as a stronghold of the extremist political party whose purposes such synthetic publicity over "the flag" serves.

Chris
03-20-2009, 11:17 AM
As someone that considers himself both English and American (I'm from Hong Kong..my dad's from Denver but I grew up with no Americans around and all english friends and teachers) I can say that england is only a few steps away from the craziness of the USA. It's getting worse.

This is ridiculous.

Archer81
03-20-2009, 11:22 AM
The Cypriot flag issue is a valid one...for the Cypriots...Clearly in England an English flag being banned for any reason is beyond ridiculous. It shouldnt matter if its a "culturally diverse" area...what country are they in?


:Broncos:

ZONA
03-20-2009, 11:24 AM
Thats because most of the football hooligans are racist skinheads. Thats what happens when you let a bunch of left wing liberals run the show.

Why don't you go suck on Rush Limbaugh's right wing cawk

Archer81
03-20-2009, 11:26 AM
Why don't you go suck on Rush Limbaugh's right wing cawk



Who says political discourse is dead...:kiddingme


:Broncos:

alpine
03-20-2009, 11:30 AM
Because
a) the English flag isn't the national flag (the Union flag is)
b) the flag of St George has been "appropriated" by the extreme right-wing parties both as a symbol and as a "cause"
c) the football supporting "scene" has been infiltrated over many years by racist parties (despite efforts from a lot of decent fans)
d) as someone who worked as a journalist and did some reporting in the days of the National Front (forerunner of the British National Party) "heritage" groups and issues were often created/used to build support for their platforms (we've already had the "they're raping our white women" one, which might stir some memories on the other side of the pond).

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2009, 11:32 AM
Because
a) the English flag isn't the national flag (the Union flag is)
b) the flag of St George has been "appropriated" by the extreme right-wing parties both as a symbol and as a "cause"
c) the football supporting "scene" has been infiltrated over many years by racist parties (despite efforts from a lot of decent fans)
d) as someone who worked as a journalist and did some reporting in the days of the National Front (forerunner of the British National Party) "heritage" groups and issues were often created/used to build support for their platforms (we've already had the "they're raping our white women" one, which might stir some memories on the other side of the pond).

It's still freedom of expression. In this country I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it until death.

alpine
03-20-2009, 11:34 AM
It's still freedom of expression. In this country I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it until death.

"Fire" in a crowded theatre.

Added: And you mean to say that if I wanted to use the "N" word to talk about rape of white women, TacoJohn and everyone else here would be OK with that? Or are there limits that we set, especially in privately-controlled areas?

Archer81
03-20-2009, 11:35 AM
Agree with Garcia.


:Broncos:

Archer81
03-20-2009, 11:36 AM
"Fire" in a crowded theatre.



Not comparable. The flag itself doesnt encourage racist or xenophobic behavior.


:Broncos:

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2009, 11:43 AM
"Fire" in a crowded theatre.

You could always come up with examples of times when freedom of speech will be counter to some portion of the populace. But usually the sacriface does not out weigh the importance of the freedom of speech.

Garcia Bronco
03-20-2009, 11:47 AM
"Fire" in a crowded theatre.

Added: And you mean to say that if I wanted to use the "N" word to talk about rape of white women, TacoJohn and everyone else here would be OK with that? Or are there limits that we set, especially in privately-controlled areas?

I can't testify to how TJ or everyone else will think, but I wouldn't care. I don't want to control how you think. I would offer the advice that you could probably convey your meaning without have to use that word. But it is in fact just a word with a variety of meanings.

BABronco
03-20-2009, 11:50 AM
PC is a jew bag collecting baby eating son of a whore.

alpine
03-20-2009, 11:55 AM
Not comparable. The flag itself doesnt encourage racist or xenophobic behavior.

In the case of football (soccer) I disagree.

THE FEW

At night the Baby Brotherhood and the Inter City Crew
Fill their pockets up with calling cards
And paint their faces red white and blue
And then they go out seeking different coloured faces
And anyone else that they can scare
And they salute the foes their fathers fought
By raising their right hands in the air
Oh look how my country's patriots are hunting down below
What do they know of England who only England know ?

From the stands of the Empire Stadium
Come the heralds of the New Dark Age
With the simplicities of bigotry
And to whom all the world's a stage
These little John Bull****s know that the press
Will glorify their feats
So that the general public fear them
And the authorities say give 'em all seats
And the wasted seed of the bulldog breed
Is chanting "Here we go"
What do they know of England who only England know ?

Our neighbours shake their heads
And take their valuables inside
While my countrymen piss in their fountains
To express our national pride
And to prove to the world that England
Is not as rotten as she looks
They repeat the lies that caught their eyes
At school in history books
But the wars they think they're fighting
Were all over long ago
What do they know of England who only England know ?

And the society that spawned them
Just cries out "Who's to blame" ?
And then wraps itself in the Union Jack
And just carries on the same
Oh look out, my country's patriots are hunting down below
What do they know of England
What do they know of England
What do they know of England who only England know ?

Words & Music – Billy Bragg

Those of you whose experience of "firms" and Ultras is limited to Frodo slumming it in the East End of London (the film "Green Street" for those who don't know what I'm talking about) might see it as something quaint.

But those of a different race or colour who have been driven out of towns in eastern Germany by hooligan thugs whose appeal is to "heritage" and "national purity" and "pride in the flag" have a different point of view.

Archer81
03-20-2009, 12:03 PM
In the case of football (soccer) I disagree.


Words & Music – Billy Bragg

Those of you whose experience of "firms" and Ultras is limited to Frodo slumming it in the East End of London (the film "Green Street" for those who don't know what I'm talking about) might see it as something quaint.

But those of a different race or colour who have been driven out of towns in eastern Germany by hooligan thugs whose appeal is to "heritage" and "national purity" and "pride in the flag" have a different point of view.



Not denying the flag has been used by idiots to further an agenda. It happens everywhere. (Sudan a prime example of racial and religious "purity" However, the flag by itself is not a racist icon. Being proud of being English and displaying the flag of St. George does not make you racist, just makes you proud of your heritage within normal limits. At a soccer game, might just be a way for some people to aptly display pride in their soccer team. Have to fight for the security of cultural icons, which a flag is. Banning it outright loses what it really means for everyone and you then cede it and its value to the neanderthals.


:Broncos:

Jens1893
03-20-2009, 12:12 PM
In the case of football (soccer) I disagree.


Words & Music – Billy Bragg

Those of you whose experience of "firms" and Ultras is limited to Frodo slumming it in the East End of London (the film "Green Street" for those who don't know what I'm talking about) might see it as something quaint.

But those of a different race or colour who have been driven out of towns in eastern Germany by hooligan thugs whose appeal is to "heritage" and "national purity" and "pride in the flag" have a different point of view.

Not sure if I entirely agree as the right wing ultra groups usually use symbols of their own and not the state´s flag.

alpine
03-20-2009, 12:14 PM
Nice to have a civilised discussion about this...

Banning it outright loses what it really means for everyone and you then cede it and its value to the neanderthals.
But they didn't ban it outright, they banned all national flags after some national flags had created problems (and I repeat that the cross of St George isn't a national flag).

In fact, if it was to show "pride in heritage" in a football sense, then I would have thought that the town coat of arms would have been more appropriate. But there is a known subtext here (and this is also related to the use of symbols in Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland) within that context.

This flag - in certain contexts - has the same implications as the Southern Cross does - in certain contexts. (He said, lighting the blue touchpaper and retiring...)

Not sure if I entirely agree as the right wing ultra groups usually use symbols of their own and not the state´s flag.
Or rather a former state symbol... but you are right.

Archer81
03-20-2009, 12:20 PM
Nice to have a civilised discussion about this...


But they didn't ban it outright, they banned all national flags after some national flags had created problems (and I repeat that the cross of St George isn't a national flag).

In fact, if it was to show "pride in heritage" in a football sense, then I would have thought that the town coat of arms would have been more appropriate. But there is a known subtext here (and this is also related to the use of symbols in Northern Ireland and parts of Scotland) within that context.

This flag - in certain contexts - has the same implications as the Southern Cross does - in certain contexts. (He said, lighting the blue touchpaper and retiring...)


Or rather a former state symbol... but you are right.


I think the issue of the greek/turkish cypriot flag doesnt compare with any national (past & present) flag of the UK. Cyprus is majority greek/greek orthodox. Turkey has helped fuel civil war and turkish/muslim cypriot independence. Its understandable if greek cypriots are upset about the use of turkish cypriot flags. In england, regardless of the "diversity" in the area the display of a historically used english flag is appropriate...because they are IN England.


*EDIT: It is nice to have a decent conversation for a change.

:Broncos:

Jens1893
03-20-2009, 12:24 PM
Or rather a former state symbol... but you are right.

That I would agree it. Actually think a saw an Italian flag with the Savoy Shield at the middle behind the goal at one of the Euro 2008 games, although the groups really do not give a **** about international football.

Generally speaking most symbols used by the Nazis (swastika, Wolfsangel, several runes etc.) are very popular with most of the right wing Italian groups.

Archer81
03-20-2009, 12:26 PM
That I would agree it. Actually think a saw an Italian flag with the Savoy Shield at the middle behind the goal at one of the Euro 2008 games, although the groups really do not give a **** about international football.

Generally speaking most symbols used by the Nazis (swastika, Wolfsangel, several runes etc.) are very popular with most of the right wing Italian groups.


Sad that the swastika is a buddhist symbol.


:Broncos:

Jens1893
03-20-2009, 12:29 PM
Sad that the swastika is a buddhist symbol.


:Broncos:

Damage has been done tho. If you show someone a swastika, what are they most likely to say or think of first?

The Celtic Cross was also misused between 1933 and 1945.

alpine
03-20-2009, 12:30 PM
The colour orange has severe riot-provoking connotations, in certain contexts.

The act of playing a whistle can cause fan violence, in certain contexts.

I'm not aware that the US has had the problems of the UK when it comes to football (culminating in the Heysel disaster and the subsequent ban from international competition of UK clubs) but, given the background, I'm not surprised that some clubs are touchy.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't have done it either. And the club I support doesn't (although I rarely see a cross of St George as well). But I can understand their reasons for doing so and I'm certainly not "outraged" over it.

epicSocialism4tw
03-20-2009, 12:33 PM
Ahh, yes. There most certainly is. The one thing I envy of the US is the general level of respect the troops get from the masses. I haven't been subjected to the kind of attitude displayed against 2nd Batallion Anglian Regiment, or similar experiences to those endured at Peterborough in '08. It takes a certain kind of restraint not to react and 'crack on'.

Strangely, the attitude towards the Armed Forces in this country is actually pretty high at the moment, but clearly we aren't pleasing the 'peace loving' muslims.

Off with my head.

Yeah, you guys have some serious trouble looming with that stuff.

Have fun with Sharia law.

Archer81
03-20-2009, 12:35 PM
The colour orange has severe riot-provoking connotations, in certain contexts.

The act of playing a whistle can cause fan violence, in certain contexts.

I'm not aware that the US has had the problems of the UK when it comes to football (culminating in the Heysel disaster and the subsequent ban from international competition of UK clubs) but, given the background, I'm not surprised that some clubs are touchy.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't have done it either. And the club I support doesn't (although I rarely see a cross of St George as well). But I can understand their reasons for doing so and I'm certainly not "outraged" over it.


US generally doesnt go nuts to that extent. I think the only comparable event was at a NBA game in Detroit between players and fans. I'm Irish and Roman Catholic defending the rights of some Limeys to put up their own damn flag in their own country...what a world we live in.

:Broncos:

DenverBrit
03-20-2009, 12:35 PM
On a lighter note.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UTduy7Qkvk8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UTduy7Qkvk8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Archer81
03-20-2009, 12:36 PM
Yeah, you guys have some serious trouble looming with that stuff.

Have fun with Sharia law.


More likely it is to happen there, the sooner it will be here. As a rule I oppose Islamic expansion everywhere.


:Broncos:

Archer81
03-20-2009, 12:38 PM
On a lighter note.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UTduy7Qkvk8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UTduy7Qkvk8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



I watched this on HBO. Funny stuff.


:Broncos:

Jens1893
03-20-2009, 12:40 PM
The colour orange has severe riot-provoking connotations, in certain contexts.

The act of playing a whistle can cause fan violence, in certain contexts.

I'm not aware that the US has had the problems of the UK when it comes to football (culminating in the Heysel disaster and the subsequent ban from international competition of UK clubs) but, given the background, I'm not surprised that some clubs are touchy.

Personally speaking, I wouldn't have done it either. And the club I support doesn't (although I rarely see a cross of St George as well). But I can understand their reasons for doing so and I'm certainly not "outraged" over it.

Who do you support?

alpine
03-20-2009, 12:51 PM
Everton (who were one of the clubs most badly affected by the Heysel ban at the time).

gyldenlove
03-20-2009, 12:52 PM
I used to go to games in Scotland and I never had any problems.

I am suring being big and having teeth helps, but I never saw any problems.

alpine
03-20-2009, 12:57 PM
I am suring being big and having teeth helps, but I never saw any problems.
See, dead giveaway that you're a guest. Everyone's on their best behaviour. "Cup of tea, vicar?"

Jens1893
03-20-2009, 12:59 PM
Everton (who were one of the clubs most badly affected by the Heysel ban at the time).

Which is why it always makes me chuckle when the commentators on TV here talk about a "family derby" where no side has any hard feelings towards the other.

atomicbloke
03-20-2009, 01:47 PM
The wildest of derbies I have ever been to are the River Plate - Boca Junior ones in Buenos Aires, Argentina.....

epicSocialism4tw
03-20-2009, 01:49 PM
The wildest of derbies I have ever been to are the River Plate - Boca Junior ones in Buenos Aires, Argentina.....

I have always wanted to see that one.

gyldenlove
03-20-2009, 02:20 PM
I have always wanted to go to Maracana and watch a local derby.

Tankgunner95
03-20-2009, 09:20 PM
Kentucky Derby is pretty cool as well!! JUST thought i would throw that in!!

JJJ
03-21-2009, 01:26 AM
Political correctness run amok in this case. I think it might be worse in England than in the US.

Now if we are talking about the Union Jack being raised on Irish soil you would actually have something worth talking about.

Rock Chalk
03-21-2009, 08:15 AM
To be fair, being English would suck.

Hahaha. As soon as I saw your screen name I knew it was gonna be a a slam on the English.

atomicbloke
03-21-2009, 09:47 AM
To be fair, being English would suck.

Aren't all Scots gay?

Why do the men wear skirts?

And do they suck Bagpipes because it gives the illusion of a long d!ck?

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 09:54 AM
I used to go to games in Scotland and I never had any problems.

I am suring being big and having teeth helps, but I never saw any problems.

You must have stood out......did kids point and run up to ask what those were? ;D

Tombstone RJ
03-21-2009, 10:38 AM
http://www.thisislancashire.co.uk/sport/4217987.Blackburn_Rovers_fans_St_George_s_flag_con fiscated_in__racist_symbol__row/

cant beleive this ,it makes me ashamed of my country,imagine if this was in your country!!!!

It's sad that you can't show pride in being English while living in England.

DenverBrit
03-21-2009, 10:45 AM
It's sad that you can't show pride in being English while living in England.

QFT