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Ratboy
03-18-2009, 11:46 PM
There isn't much news.

but I do agree with Woody.
__________________________________________________ ______


Go ahead, trade Jay Cutler! Get rid of him! Really, really punish him by sending him to Detroit! Or, better still, Siberia! Purge the pouter! Kick him to the curb and throw him under the Bus Cook!

But, remember this: Those Jeffs-, Jodys-, Jaspers-, Joshes- come-lately had better study the Broncos' history, or they are doomed to repeat the three-, four- and five-victory seasons.

Two words: Steve Ramsey.

Two more words: Steve Tensi.

Two more words: Steve DeBerg.

Lord, what fools these mortals be! Billy Shakespeare

To all the mortals inside Broncos Compound and outside Pigeon Valley who are demanding that Cutler be dumped like a load of coal, don't come crying to me after you've made that monumental mistake. Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.

Give me a quarterback who pouts and cares, who is furious and doesn't return phone calls, who wears a Ringo Starr hairstyle, his cap on backward and his shirttail sticking out, who is boastful and remote and who soon will be one of the top five at his position in the NFL.

I'll give you a quarterback who is gracious and affable, who has excellent table manners and wears an Armani suit, who has a smile on his face and a George Hamilton tan on his body, who likes to tweet on his Twitter and show up at your kid's birthday party dressed as a purple dinosaur, and who will be a guy who always plays just good enough to get you beat.

Matt Robinson, traded to the Broncos when he was 25, possessed a pleasant disposition and a nice car. He was an awful quarterback two touchdowns and 12 interceptions in seven starts and shuffled off to Buffalo the next season.

People, including a head coach, who haven't lived in Denver for a long time, or aren't old enough to recall the seasons before 1977, may not be aware that the Broncos have suited up 57 quarterbacks since 1960.

There have been 50 count 'em 50 different starting quarterbacks for the Broncos in 49 seasons.

The vast majority couldn't play dead.

One ended up living under a bridge.

So, you want to go back to Frank Tripucka, Mickey Slaughter, Max Choboian, Bubby Brister and George "Don't Call Me Bernard" Shaw.

Or the three Steves, Tensi, Ramsey and DeBerg.

Tensi and Ramsey were "retired" by age 29. DeBerg had three winning seasons as a full-time starter.

The first names of three of the Broncos' four best quarterbacks begin with "J" John, Jake and Jay. The other was Craig Morton. Three of the four played quarterback for the Broncos in 31 postseason games, eight conference championships and six Super Bowls.

Of all the rest, only six played quarterback in postseason games.

Cutler is the best quarterback the Broncos have picked in the collegiate draft. (Don't hand me ex-starters Brian Griese, Tommy Maddox or Mark Herrmann.)

In 1983 the Colts drafted a young, pouting, defiant quarterback who demanded to be traded, and he was sent to Denver. The Colts didn't recover until drafting another great quarterback No. 1 in 1998, Peyton Manning.

In 1991 the Cleveland Browns hired the league's youngest head coach. He feuded with his starting quarterback, Bernie Kosar (who had lifted the Browns to three AFC championship games, only to lose to the Broncos), and eventually replaced him with Vinny Testaverde. Kosar took over for the injured Troy Aikman in the NFC championship and led the Cowboys to the victory. The Browns coach, with a 36-44 record, was fired after the 1995 season. Bill Belichick.

Shall we be clear about McJaygate? After the first reports about the trade gone awry surfaced, coach Josh McDaniels told Mike Klis of The Denver Post: "We don't want to trade Jay. We never did. He's our quarterback."

A few days ago McDaniels told Peter King of Sports Illustrated that he did pursue a deal with New England for Matt Cassel, but "I think we were too late to the dance."

This is not a prom. It's pro football.

If I were the coach, I'd fly to Nashville and tell Cutler: "I'm sorry. I made a rookie mistake. You're our quarterback."

But, Josh, and Jeff and Jody and you, go ahead and run Jay out of Our Dusty Old Cowtown, for spite.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11945954

cutthemdown
03-18-2009, 11:52 PM
I have to agree that if we can get Cutler to stay that is the best thing. But if he is adamant about leaving what can Broncos do.

Firing McDaniels and telling Cutler sorry, hiring back Shannahan or Bates just not an option.

How big a deal with Cutler want to stay? and if that is what it takes then doesn't that prove he is full of it. If it's about money then come out and say I think I deserve more money, that I can understand.

There may be no hope in keeping Cutler although it seems like the logical move for both parties.

Popps
03-18-2009, 11:52 PM
The only point he makes here is that we may regret losing Jay.

Thanks for clearing that up, Woody.

In the meanwhile, the ****bag doesn't want to play in Denver. You really think the organization is going to lower themselves to chasing this guy all over the country so they can plant one on his arse?

Get over it, Woody. I'd rather root for Chris Simms than someone who doesn't want to play for my Denver Broncos.

BroncoBuff
03-18-2009, 11:54 PM
Spot on, Woody.

It's amazing how easily people around here are willing to give up on a once-in-a-generation quarterback.
.

SouthStndJunkie
03-18-2009, 11:56 PM
Solid take by Woodrow.

UberBroncoMan
03-18-2009, 11:58 PM
The only point he makes here is that we may regret losing Jay.

Thanks for clearing that up, Woody.

In the meanwhile, the ****bag doesn't want to play in Denver. You really think the organization is going to lower themselves to chasing this guy all over the country so they can plant one on his arse?

Get over it, Woody. I'd rather root for Chris Simms than someone who doesn't want to play for my Denver Broncos.

He doesn't want to play for Josh... not Denver. Big difference.

spdirty
03-18-2009, 11:59 PM
good column. I just hope the days of getting nervous whenever the quarterback drops back to pass are over for at least 10 years.

Man this crap has worn me out. So sick of the every day drumbeat. Just hope like hell the drunk and the kid dont destroy the franchise out of spite.

BroncoBuff
03-18-2009, 11:59 PM
The only point he makes here is that we may regret losing Jay.

Thanks for clearing that up, Woody.

In the meanwhile, the ****bag doesn't want to play in Denver. You really think the organization is going to lower themselves to chasing this guy all over the country so they can plant one on his arse?

Get over it, Woody. I'd rather root for Chris Simms than someone who doesn't want to play for my Denver Broncos.

Knothead, he DOES want to play for the Broncos, he said it a million times. But after the TEAM tried to trade him behind his back, and then lied to him about it, he wants them to come clean, or trade him somewhere he's truly wanted.
,

Willynowei
03-19-2009, 12:00 AM
Trading a franchise quarterback is always a mistake. Always.

Everyone can talk about pricniple or how much they hate Cutler or how they don't like his attitude. It's simple really, Shanahan + pressure from Bowlen to kick out Slowik would probably have us deep in the playoffs within 2 seasons. When you trade your star quarterback, especially if he's young, you lose - its a guarantee: bank on it, we'll be worse off after the trade than before it - alot.

Talking about Jarvis Moss as a bust, McDonald's over hear looks, acts and has all the signs of being a bust. This ain't old man Tom Coughlin lining up the troops with his hard line style - this is a 32 year old boy trying to stroke his own ego.

Let me reiterate, our coaching staff is full of losers - Nolan is a reactive, conservative playcaller from a losing 49ers team, and a guy who's never fielded a compitent defense without Rex Ryan. McDonalds was on the wrong side of the greatest upset and best defensive shut down (relatively speaking) in superbowl history; and got all the credit for Cassell developing since he's a first time starter, even though the guy had all of 3 full training camps and preseasons to prepare in the NFL.

BroncoBuff
03-19-2009, 12:01 AM
Trading a franchise quarterback is always a mistake. Its very simple really.

BINGO!
/

Anaximines
03-19-2009, 12:01 AM
Spot on, Woody.

It's amazing how easily people around here are willing to give up on a once-in-a-generation quarterback.
.

QFT!

Popps
03-19-2009, 12:03 AM
Spot on, Woody.

It's amazing how easily people around here are willing to give up on a once-in-a-generation quarterback.
.

No proof. No basis. Pure speculation.

"Once in a generation?"

Says who? Some decent yardage stats?

Dude hasn't won ****, has a 87 QB rating, a massive ego, and only threw 7 more TDs than INTs last season.


Once in a generation? He may END UP that way, but to say he's anything of the sort now is just comical.

Popps
03-19-2009, 12:04 AM
Trading a franchise quarterback is always a mistake. Always.
.

When we get a franchise QB in town, let's have that conversation. You're probably right, but let's talk once we see a franchise QB not named Elway in Denver.

~Crash~
03-19-2009, 12:05 AM
The only point he makes here is that we may regret losing Jay.

Thanks for clearing that up, Woody.

In the meanwhile, the ****bag doesn't want to play in Denver. You really think the organization is going to lower themselves to chasing this guy all over the country so they can plant one on his arse?

Get over it, Woody. I'd rather root for Chris Simms than someone who doesn't want to play for my Denver Broncos.

you know popps I have always thought you fare....but that you are not being fare in any way in this not even close you are talking stuff that is not real or in print . Cutler says he loves Denver so you are really revising... thats fine you are not always like this so I guess maybe got you reason but you look silly right now In my eyes . Cutler wants to be told he is long term what is damn tough about that .

Ratboy
03-19-2009, 12:08 AM
No proof. No basis. Pure speculation.

"Once in a generation?"

Says who? Some decent yardage stats?

Dude hasn't won ****, has a 87 QB rating, a massive ego, and only threw 7 more TDs than INTs last season.


Once in a generation? He may END UP that way, but to say he's anything of the sort now is just comical.

His multiple come back wins don't count? Cutler lead his offense down the field on multiple occasions for the win.

Without Jay Cutler we would be a wreck on offense the past 2 seasons. So not only does our defense suck, but our offense would blow just as much.

UberBroncoMan
03-19-2009, 12:11 AM
His multiple come back wins don't count? Cutler lead his offense down the field on multiple occasions for the win.

Without Jay Cutler we would be a wreck on offense the past 2 seasons. So not only does our defense suck, but our offense would blow just as much.

Popps forgets that Cutler had a team with 11 TO's not to mention the worst starting position in the NFL for his offense. That's on top of having to throw into 7-8 man coverages all the time due to having no running game. We had only 2 100yard individual rushing games the ENTIRE SEASON. The fact Cutler didn't throw more than 18 INT's is in itself a marvel. Again his stats owned Elway's in their first 3 respective years, but Elway had a great defense that won games for him.

FireFly
03-19-2009, 12:12 AM
While nothing new was presented, this is the 1st thing I've read that's made me sit abck and think hey... maybe it would be a mistake to trade him.

But then the other posters who are anti-Jay make good points as well. I suppose my stance is now (if it wasn't already), I want him to come back on good terms, play for the team, accept coaching from his coach and act like a professional at all times (probably a pipe dream), but if that's not possible - lets trade him for defence :)

Popps
03-19-2009, 12:13 AM
Cutler wants to be told he is long term what is damn tough about that .

Crash, I don't believe Cutler wants to be in Denver. It's just that simple.

For all of my joking, I DO understand him having issue with being on the trade block. It's fine to have that upset you... but it should MOTIVATE him. But, it's not. It's making him stick a gun to our necks for more money.

Now, think about it. Just be totally clear-minded and think about this. If he really wanted to be in Denver... couldn't he just show up and prove McDaniels wrong for trying to trade him? The coach has invited him in to do so. Why does Jay need a financial guarantee? He's already got one. It's called his contract.

So, if he WANTED to be a Bronco, his teammates are waiting. He left them hanging at the meeting. Left them out to dry, answering questions from reporters about why it is their QB doesn't want to play with them.

So, I just don't believe him. He could come in and COMMAND a new contract with his play, if he's so talented. The new staff hasn't seen him throw a single pass in the new offense. Are any other players demanding a pay-raise?

Champ Bailey is a Hall of Famer. Is he demanding a pay-raise before the staff ever gets to see him on the field?

NO ONE else is demanding a raise before they show up to work.

Those aren't the behaviors of someone who wants to be there. Quite the contrary.

So, I believe I'm being fair. I understand he's upset... but I also believe he's giving us very clear signals that he wants out.

"It's run its course."
-Jay Cutler

What else do you need to hear?

Popps
03-19-2009, 12:14 AM
Popps forgets that Cutler had a team with 11 TO's not to mention the worst starting position in the NFL for his offense. That's on top of having to throw into 7-8 man coverages all the time due to having no running game. We had only 2 100yard individual rushing games the ENTIRE SEASON. The fact Cutler didn't throw more than 18 INT's is in itself a marvel. Again his stats owned Elway's in their first 3 respective years, but Elway had a great defense that won games for him.

I'm not saying the kid doesn't throw the ball well.

Franchise QBs prove they can carry teams on their backs to wins, despite incredible adversity for a long period of time.

Jay has done no such thing. He's put up some nice yardage stats and throws a pretty spiral.

UberBroncoMan
03-19-2009, 12:14 AM
While nothing new was presented, this is the 1st thing I've read that's made me sit abck and think hey... maybe it would be a mistake to trade him.

But then the other posters who are anti-Jay make good points as well. I suppose my stance is now (if it wasn't already), I want him to come back on good terms, play for the team, accept coaching from his coach and act like a professional at all times (probably a pipe dream), but if that's not possible - lets trade him for defence :)

... and have Chris Simms or some rookie as our QB? :Whaaaa!:

UberBroncoMan
03-19-2009, 12:15 AM
I'm not saying the kid doesn't throw the ball well.

Franchise QBs prove they can carry teams on their backs to wins, despite incredible adversity for a long period of time.

Jay has done no such thing. He's put up some nice yardage stats and throws a pretty spiral.

Dude... Joe Montana couldn't have carried this team last year.

Trying to say that a franchise QB is going to carry ANY team, even one with 7 RB's on the IR and the WORST defense in the NFL is asinine.

... oh and Jay did carry us back to wins, Cleavland anyone? How about San Diego?

Tell me... did Dan Marino suck? Would the Dolphins have been better off without him?

DeusExManning
03-19-2009, 12:16 AM
The only point he makes here is that we may regret losing Jay.

Thanks for clearing that up, Woody.

In the meanwhile, the ****bag doesn't want to play in Denver. You really think the organization is going to lower themselves to chasing this guy all over the country so they can plant one on his arse?

Get over it, Woody. I'd rather root for Chris Simms than someone who doesn't want to play for my Denver Broncos.

You clearly have made this personal and you are not thinking clearly about this. I can tell by how quickly you respond with one decisive view that has not been thought out but just supports what you have been saying all along. You are the Rush Limbaugh of the Orangemane.

Popps
03-19-2009, 12:18 AM
... and have Chris Simms or some rookie as our QB? :Whaaaa!:

Teams win SBs.

We won't be winning a SB next year. The person taking snaps for us next year isn't nearly as crucial (at this point) as people are making it out to be. It's going to be a tough, rebuilding year, no matter how you slice it.

We've got time to develop someone in our system, which McDaniels knows all about. It's his specialty.

I'd like to keep Jay, but if not... hope springs eternal.

~Crash~
03-19-2009, 12:18 AM
Crash, I don't believe Cutler wants to be in Denver. It's just that simple.

For all of my joking, I DO understand him having issue with being on the trade block. It's fine to have that upset you... but it should MOTIVATE him. But, it's not. It's making him stick a gun to our necks for more money.

Now, think about it. Just be totally clear-minded and think about this. If he really wanted to be in Denver... couldn't he just show up and prove McDaniels wrong for trying to trade him? The coach has invited him in to do so. Why does Jay need a financial guarantee? He's already got one. It's called his contract.

So, if he WANTED to be a Broncos, his teammates are waiting. He left them hanging at the meeting. Left them out to dry, answering questions from reporters about why it is their QB doesn't want to play with them.

So, I just don't believe him. He could come in and COMMAND a new contract with his play, if he's so talented. The new staff hasn't seen him throw a singl pass in the new offense. Are any other players demanding a pay-raise?

Champ Bailey is a Hall of Famer. Is he demanding a pay-raise before the staff ever gets to see him on the field?

NO ONE else is demanding a raise before they show up to work.

Those aren't the behaviors of someone who wants to be there. Quite the contrary.

So, I believe I'm being fair. I understand he's upset... but I also believe he's giving us very clear signals that he wants out.

"It's run its course."
-Jay Cutler



What else do you need to hear?

He has also stated that he went to the meeting wanting to hear he was still long term and all he heard was that he still might be traded I don't blame him for what he is asking a simple you are our long term plans .if not I don't blame him trade me .

people are making more of this than it is . simple

Willynowei
03-19-2009, 12:19 AM
When we get a franchise QB in town, let's have that conversation. You're probably right, but let's talk once we see a franchise QB not named Elway in Denver.

Cutler aside I have no idea why you like this new regime; it stinks of all the things I know you hate.

We have a reactive defensive philosophy yet again - under the retarded "play it safe" Nolan. We have an offense thats purely run and gun - from the Pats, and we may not even have the personell for it pending the Cutler trade. Which means, yet again - no tough ball control offense. We have yet the same FA spending that I hated under shanahan - OVER PAY insignificant people -as in this new Long Snapper who may or may not be as good as Leach.

Then we have yet another load of cash spent on the secondary. I'm not saying I don't like Dawkins, but this reminds me of the signing of John Lynch. Hey, good pickup but where are your priorities.

With the Cutler ordeal, i don't care where you put the blame, the fact is, this doesn't hurt Cutler nearly as much as it hurts Denver. Now they don't even know what draft picks they'll have or even the holes - pending the trade of Cutler and/or Scheffler.

And to round it all out, McDaniels has done nothing but bring in "his guys" that's "loyal to him" and all this stuff that people were getting on Shanny's back for. Remember, "club med" style of running things? Favoritism? Not basing things on purely performance?

Lets be realistic here, anyone knows how the world works knows that opportunities don't conveniently pop up. McDaniels went after Cassell because he liked him. And every one in Football knows Cutler is the superior player. Same thign with getting rid of Mike Leach. McDaniels "liked" the other guy. Thats favoritism. Thats the one thing they supposedly got rid of Shanny for.

And remember "accountability"? Popps?

The idea that McDonalds would answer to the Goodmans? - the GMs! the balance of power?

GONE.

I really don't know why you're siding with MickyDs on this one Popps. I don't think they are going the right direction with Defense or offense at this point. Theres no smash mouth running game, not philosphy wise, and niether is this going to be a blitzing defense, not under Nolan.

Ratboy
03-19-2009, 12:22 AM
I'm not saying the kid doesn't throw the ball well.

Franchise QBs prove they can carry teams on their backs to wins, despite incredible adversity for a long period of time.

Jay has done no such thing. He's put up some nice yardage stats and throws a pretty spiral.

He has carried this team on his back, Popps.

Unfortunately, our defense was so horrible, not even Jesus Christ himself, could carry this team to the playoffs.

BroncoBuff
03-19-2009, 12:32 AM
He has carried this team on his back, Popps.
Unfortunately, our defense was so horrible, not even Jesus Christ himself, could carry this team to the playoffs.
Also, in the 07-08 seasons combined, Jay has the 2nd best 4th quarter QB efficiency rating in the league. Being that good in crunch time is a rare quality. Jay was already a franchise QB ... now he's also proven himself to be a CLUTCH franchise quarterback.

Oh, and he throws a pretty spiral :oyvey:
.

Blueflame
03-19-2009, 12:35 AM
Crash, I don't believe Cutler wants to be in Denver. It's just that simple.

For all of my joking, I DO understand him having issue with being on the trade block. It's fine to have that upset you... but it should MOTIVATE him. But, it's not. It's making him stick a gun to our necks for more money.

Now, think about it. Just be totally clear-minded and think about this. If he really wanted to be in Denver... couldn't he just show up and prove McDaniels wrong for trying to trade him? The coach has invited him in to do so. Why does Jay need a financial guarantee? He's already got one. It's called his contract.

So, if he WANTED to be a Bronco, his teammates are waiting. He left them hanging at the meeting. Left them out to dry, answering questions from reporters about why it is their QB doesn't want to play with them.

So, I just don't believe him. He could come in and COMMAND a new contract with his play, if he's so talented. The new staff hasn't seen him throw a single pass in the new offense. Are any other players demanding a pay-raise?

Champ Bailey is a Hall of Famer. Is he demanding a pay-raise before the staff ever gets to see him on the field?

NO ONE else is demanding a raise before they show up to work.

Those aren't the behaviors of someone who wants to be there. Quite the contrary. If

So, I believe I'm being fair. I understand he's upset... but I also believe he's giving us very clear signals that he wants out.

"It's run its course."
-Jay Cutler

What else do you need to hear?

Do you think it's fair for Chris Simms to be making 3 times Cutler's salary for holding a clipboard? How about the Broncos "entertaining" the idea of paying $14 million for Cassel when Cutler costs $1.5? If they're willing to pay more for Cassel (a significant downgrade at the QB position) then why would they balk at paying more for Cutler?

Hulamau
03-19-2009, 12:44 AM
Spot on, Woody.

It's amazing how easily people around here are willing to give up on a once-in-a-generation quarterback.
.

No one is giving up on him Buff, Id love nothing more than for Jay to realize he is burning too many bridges here and get his A** back to Dove Valley ready to play hard.

But this Charade now is being sustained and driven by Bus Cook with Cutler's support, no matter what you think McDaniels did in the beginning.

All the evidence we have indicates that McD did NOT lie to Cutler, and besides, he has indicted in every way possible that he wants Jay back as the QB, just not on absolute Monarchy rules with Jay on the throne as King of the world! And JAy wont even meet with him one on one.

Cant he take a tape or video recorder with him to show Bus and discuss it all with him afterwards? Is he not a man enough to at least make that good faith effort??? He is not doing so because he DOESN'T WANT AN APOLOGY, nor does he want to make it up with McD! Unless and until he gets a new contract period!

All of this now is Jay and Cook manipulating the situation that arose around entertaining the possibility of trading Cutler , and none of this holding out has anything at all to do with McD apologizing to Cutler or any of that crap, its ONLY about a ruinous (for our rebuilding plans) huge new contract.

Woody is a weak-minded fool whose articles so often blow in the wind. Occasionally he makes a good point, and his only good one here is that this is a no win situation for everyone if Jay continues with this charade to the end for his own selfish aims.

TDmvp
03-19-2009, 12:44 AM
Also, in the 07-08 seasons combined, Jay has the 2nd best 4th quarter QB efficiency rating in the league. Being that good in crunch time is a rare quality. Jay was already a franchise QB ... now he's also proven himself to be a CLUTCH franchise quarterback.

Oh, and he throws a pretty spiral :oyvey:
.



also name a better Qb in the game not name Manning or Brady better on 3rd down ... Jay has been about the best over the last 2 season at that as well.

BroncoBuff
03-19-2009, 12:47 AM
No proof. No basis. Pure speculation.

"Once in a generation?"

Says who? Some decent yardage stats?

Dude hasn't won ****, has a 87 QB rating, a massive ego, and only threw 7 more TDs than INTs last season.

Once in a generation? He may END UP that way, but to say he's anything of the sort now is just comical.

Of COURSE he's a once-in-a-generation quarterback. Elway was 1983, and a generation is about 25 years. Unless of course you think Griese, Frerotte or Plummer were the one.

I can't figure you out here, Popps ... you're so far off base with this "he throws a pretty spiral" nonsense, I'm wondering whether you appreciate how rare it is to play quarterback at the level Jay does. He has the 2nd best 4th quarter QB efficiency rating in the league over the last two years combined. That is a very special stat. An Elway-like stat.

And saying "Dude hasn't won **** yet" is really puzzling ... you gotta be smarter than that. We have the 32nd ranked scoring defense over the last two years, and seven RBs landed on IR this year. Can't you give the W-L stuff a rest? It's reveals nothing here.

I'm starting to think maybe you just resent BMOC types ... I bet you weren't an athlete. Not being hostile here, I was no athlete either. But your personal resentment for most of the star players on this team has definitely become a pattern ... DJ Williams, Brandon Marshall, and now all the "pouting," "crybaby," "selfish" and home-erotic "love spurned" thread about Jay.

There's maybe 10 guys on the planet who can do what he does as well as he does it. Eddy Van Halen has an ego, too ... would you not buy somebody's album because they're an ass?
.

Taco John
03-19-2009, 12:51 AM
I agreed with Woody's last article - but wasn't Woody daring Bowlen to dump Shanahan in the middle of a rebuild? What? He expected that the new coach would come in and just pick up where Shanahan left off?

extralife
03-19-2009, 12:52 AM
I also don't get the notion that we should get rid of Cutler because he "hasn't won yet" or he "isn't a true leader" or any other thing you can come up with. The dude is 25 years old. He has started in the NFL for two years. All season people were preaching patience with the kid, because they knew we had something special on our hands. Now it's the offseason and all of a sudden--just kidding, that was a joke! Hang the kid! He can't get it done. He's a loser. He throws too many interceptions. Etc, etc. I swear, this is the hardest city to play QB in in the NFL, by a country mile. This is ridiculous.

Taco John
03-19-2009, 12:52 AM
No proof. No basis. Pure speculation.

"Once in a generation?"

Says who? Some decent yardage stats?

Dude hasn't won ****, has a 87 QB rating, a massive ego, and only threw 7 more TDs than INTs last season.


Once in a generation? He may END UP that way, but to say he's anything of the sort now is just comical.


For as much as you pretend to know about defense, you don't know **** about quarterbacks...

BroncoBuff
03-19-2009, 12:55 AM
No one is giving up on him Buff, Id love nothign more than for Jay to realize he is burning too many bridges here and get his A** back to Dove Valley ready to play hard.

But this Charade now is being sustained and driven by Bus Cook with Cutler's support, No latter what you think McDaniels did in the beginning.

All the evidence we have indicates that McD did NOT lie to Cutler, and beside he has indicted in every way possible that he wants him back as the QB, just not on absolute Monarchy rules with Jay on the throne as King of the world!


The bolded part is wrong. In fact, the evidence is pretty overwhelming Josh DID try to trade Jay. I'm not sure anybody doubts that now. Even Drek, who's pro-McDaniels all the way, is twisting himself up on this, saying, "they didn't actively try to trade Jay, they just called around to see what he was worth before dropping it." So even the Josh supporters are basically acknowledging the Broncos were actively involved in trade talks.

So based on all the accounts we have, it seems entirely certain that Josh lied to Jay, at least at first. Proibably thinking it would not go any further. But that's where Jaosh's total lack of front office experience (and Xanders' newly-castrated GM powers) killed us .... Josh incorrectly thought he could "slick-like-Belichick" get away with lying, but Jay caught him.
.

DeusExManning
03-19-2009, 12:56 AM
Woody wrote more in his mailbag as I just posted.

DeusExManning
03-19-2009, 12:57 AM
MCD lied to cutler, for sure.

BroncoBuff
03-19-2009, 01:03 AM
For as much as you pretend to know about defense, you don't know **** about quarterbacks...
It is so amazing to me how quickly these people will give up on a clutch, franchise, once-in-a-generation quarterback.

The Colts gave in and traded Elway ... how did that work out for them?

The Falcons gave up on "mississippi" after a year or so ... no doubt they wish they had a do-over there.

Giving up on Jay will leave us 15 years of regret I'm afraid. We gotta get through this with him on the team.

MCD lied to cutler, for sure.
Yep, no real doubt left on that one. The question is, what does Jay get in penance? McD (and Xanders for what it's worth) have already publicly said they won't trade Jay. I don't know what more the kid wants.
.

BroncoMan4ever
03-19-2009, 01:20 AM
I have to agree that if we can get Cutler to stay that is the best thing. But if he is adamant about leaving what can Broncos do.

Firing McDaniels and telling Cutler sorry, hiring back Shannahan or Bates just not an option.

How big a deal with Cutler want to stay? and if that is what it takes then doesn't that prove he is full of it. If it's about money then come out and say I think I deserve more money, that I can understand.

There may be no hope in keeping Cutler although it seems like the logical move for both parties.

even though money will end up being a factor, i think if McDaniels drops his i am god act and mans up and admits the truth to Jay, and tells him it is over and Jay has the full confidence of the staff and won't be traded, this will all end.

but McDick is to much of an egotist to see that and will rather send the franchise back to mediocrity for the next decade at least

BroncoMan4ever
03-19-2009, 01:23 AM
It is so amazing to me how quickly these people will give up on a clutch, franchise, once-in-a-generation quarterback.

The Colts gave in and traded Elway ... how did that work out for them?

The Falcons gave up on "mississippi" after a year or so ... no doubt they wish they had a do-over there.

Giving up on Jay will leave us 15 years of regret I'm afraid. We gotta get through this with him on the team.


Yep, no real doubt left on that one. The question is, what does Jay get in penance? McD (and Xanders for what it's worth) have already publicly said they won't trade Jay. I don't know what more the kid wants.
.

a no trade clause. McDick also said Jay was the man and the reason he wanted to come to Denver, and then less than 2 months later he is ready to toss Jay aside. he lied once already straight to Jay's face, why should he believe him when he says Jay won't be traded.

if McDick is serious about Jay not being traded, add a no trade clause to his current deal and prove it to him and this all ends.

watermock
03-19-2009, 02:01 AM
It's funny how people keep bring up money and a new contract.

JAY CUTLER HAS NEVER ASKED FOR A NEW DEAL.

HE'S ASKED, FORMALLY, FOR A TRADE BECAUSE HE FEELS HE WAS AT A MINIMUN, MISLEAD.

watermock
03-19-2009, 02:05 AM
I get these he's-a-poor-whining-crybaby statements and questions. "He should shut up. He makes a lot of money."

I have a real problem here. I've had two jobs in my life from which I tried to walk away because I didn't want to work for my boss. It had nothing to do with money. It had to do with how we are treated, or even how we perceive we are treated.

Let's say you have a job that pays $25,000, and your boss wants to send you to Detroit to worse working conditions, and your boss lied to you, and his bosses aren't on your side, and you know the boss will continue to try to get rid of you. Are you a whining baby or a human being? What if someone who makes $12,000 says: "You make a lot of money. Shut up and take it." What would be your response?

I once told someone close to me I was quitting a very lucrative position -- not with my current employers -- because I was being disrespected, lied to and was not allowed to do what was in my (contractual) agreement, and they wanted to get rid of me, and I was miserable. "What about a man who has a family? He couldn't do that."

Woody

BroncoBuff
03-19-2009, 02:06 AM
also name a better Qb in the game not name Manning or Brady better on 3rd down ... Jay has been about the best over the last 2 season at that as well.

That's right ... he's been exceptional on 3rd downs since all the way back to his first start against the Seahawks in that Sunday Night game in '06.

He's so much more than a "strong arm." The 4th quarter vs. Cleveland this last year was about as good as anything Elway did, in the regular season anyway. That game was O-V-E-R when the 3rd quarter ended.
.

watermock
03-19-2009, 02:09 AM
Unless he tries to do too much with 7 in coverage....

orange skier
03-19-2009, 02:41 AM
McD needs to meet Cutler in the middle............McD's system can be adapted to fit Jay's game....this just isn't that difficult..........once this happens....when we we all start to work togeher....we're back in the bowl.......!

Drek
03-19-2009, 04:58 AM
He doesn't want to play for Josh... not Denver. Big difference.

Yet he didn't return the owner's phone calls, has requested a trade from the TEAM, and isn't at voluntary mini-camps working out with his teammates.

If this was just about McDaniels it'd be framed as such. Instead every single time he's dealt with the franchise he's brought along his agent, and he's stone walling the owner.

He might say its about McDaniels, but his actions say something completely different.

Also, in the 07-08 seasons combined, Jay has the 2nd best 4th quarter QB efficiency rating in the league. Being that good in crunch time is a rare quality. Jay was already a franchise QB ... now he's also proven himself to be a CLUTCH franchise quarterback.

Oh, and he throws a pretty spiral :oyvey:
.

A clutch QB doesn't play his worst games down the stretch, when a single win in three games locks up the division for us.

He's got great peripherals, sure, he got stuck with a horrible defense last year. Also true. But there were more than enough winnable games out there last year to clinch the division and Cutler failed to deliver.

He isn't great, just very good. Definitely not someone who is untradeable.

Do you think it's fair for Chris Simms to be making 3 times Cutler's salary for holding a clipboard? How about the Broncos "entertaining" the idea of paying $14 million for Cassel when Cutler costs $1.5? If they're willing to pay more for Cassel (a significant downgrade at the QB position) then why would they balk at paying more for Cutler?

Jay Cutler got a big fat signing bonus when he came here. He's already been paid most of it. So just because he got a ton of money up front he now has the right to bitch and moan about being underpaid?

He's already been paid for services the franchise expected him to render over the next three years. He's reneging on the very financial deal he agreed to.

Also, bringing up Cassel basically shows a complete lack of understanding towards how NFL business management works. He would've been extended though it would've been the team's desire to do so, not the player's, as it will still be with KC. Its entirely impossible to relate the two situations.

If it really is about the money as you're suggesting here then Cutler is even more of a bitch than anyone on here has ever speculated. He's been paid for these next three years already. Thats what his signing bonus and everything else was. He signed the contract. What you're implying he's doing is the equivalent of someone agreeing to mow your lawn for a summer, you pay them two months in advance, and then when he gets one month into it he says you aren't paying him enough anymore and he isn't mowing your lawn until you pay him again.

The bolded part is wrong. In fact, the evidence is pretty overwhelming Josh DID try to trade Jay. I'm not sure anybody doubts that now. Even Drek, who's pro-McDaniels all the way, is twisting himself up on this, saying, "they didn't actively try to trade Jay, they just called around to see what he was worth before dropping it." So even the Josh supporters are basically acknowledging the Broncos were actively involved in trade talks.

I can't believe you're still misquoting that.

They got offers for Jay, the never shopped him in any way. But when they got offers they checked the price on Cassel. I never said they called around to see what Jay was worth, and to this point there isn't any proof that they ever did. After getting some fat offers they just took a look at what their QB alternative would be, saw that it wasn't gettable, and let the whole thing drop. Thats from McDaniels' own mouth and has been corroborated by reporters who still have their credibility in tact (like Shefter).

So based on all the accounts we have, it seems entirely certain that Josh lied to Jay, at least at first. Proibably thinking it would not go any further. But that's where Jaosh's total lack of front office experience (and Xanders' newly-castrated GM powers) killed us .... Josh incorrectly thought he could "slick-like-Belichick" get away with lying, but Jay caught him.
.
From Jay himself this supposed lie was that McDaniels said he was looking forward to coaching Cutler, then considered a deal for Cassel.

I'd hope you of all people have a logical enough mind to see that this is clearly not a lie. Anticipation of working with Cutler does not in any way guarantee he will not even hear out his options as it pertains to QB. Anticipation about going to see a movie doesn't mean I'll see it day one regardless of what else is playing. Looking forward to going to a new restaurant that is opening up down the street doesn't mean I won't consider eating anywhere else in the near term.

That is what Jay has himself stated he perceives as the lie here. It is incredibly tenuous, bordering on completely wrong.

I honestly don't much fault Jay for it, he probably felt incredibly unsure of himself after Shanahan and Bates both left the team and as a result he's acted very defensively. But not understanding that is the only blame I see that can be lain at McDaniels feet. He didn't understand that Jay was feeling unsure and so he didn't extend the kind of reassurances Jay could have used at the time. That happens in new relationships though, and its not anything that McDaniels can truly be considered in error for not doing.

What has taken this entire thing into a downward spiral is that Cutler brought Cook in, who is a master of playing hard ball with organizations. That is what is now happening. I've said it in probably a half dozen other posts. If Jay would just go to Denver, tell Cook to stay the hell home, and sit down with McDaniels one on one like McDaniels has been asking him to do for weeks now, this problem would be resolved. Jay needs to hear McDaniels side sans Cook spin and without it boiling into an agent/GM contentious negotiation like the last meeting did.

As for Woody's article, of course we don't want to trade Cutler. But if he isn't going to respond to the owner of the franchise, have any trust in his new HC, or work out with his teammates in a voluntary camp that will be very important for the offense this season (to learn a new system) then I don't see where the Broncos are being given much choice. Woody's cure was for McDaniels to go speak with Cutler, but thats what McDaniels has been pushing for all along. Cutler is the one who's been blocking that.

TheReverend
03-19-2009, 05:06 AM
No proof. No basis. Pure speculation.

"Once in a generation?"

Says who? Some decent yardage stats?

Dude hasn't won ****, has a 87 QB rating, a massive ego, and only threw 7 more TDs than INTs last season.


Once in a generation? He may END UP that way, but to say he's anything of the sort now is just comical.

How does the guy banging a drum for a new defense and parroting "defense wins championships" also trumpet this bull****?

broncofan7
03-19-2009, 05:11 AM
Knothead, he DOES want to play for the Broncos, he said it a million times. But after the TEAM tried to trade him behind his back, and then lied to him about it, he wants them to come clean, or trade him somewhere he's truly wanted.
,

Absolutely. Players win the games.

Swedish Extrovert
03-19-2009, 05:42 AM
There isn't much news.

but I do agree with Woody.
__________________________________________________ ______


Go ahead, trade Jay Cutler! Get rid of him! Really, really punish him by sending him to Detroit! Or, better still, Siberia! Purge the pouter! Kick him to the curb and throw him under the Bus Cook!

But, remember this: Those Jeffs-, Jodys-, Jaspers-, Joshes- come-lately had better study the Broncos' history, or they are doomed to repeat the three-, four- and five-victory seasons.

Two words: Steve Ramsey.

Two more words: Steve Tensi.

Two more words: Steve DeBerg.

Lord, what fools these mortals be! Billy Shakespeare

To all the mortals inside Broncos Compound and outside Pigeon Valley who are demanding that Cutler be dumped like a load of coal, don't come crying to me after you've made that monumental mistake. Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.

Give me a quarterback who pouts and cares, who is furious and doesn't return phone calls, who wears a Ringo Starr hairstyle, his cap on backward and his shirttail sticking out, who is boastful and remote and who soon will be one of the top five at his position in the NFL.

I'll give you a quarterback who is gracious and affable, who has excellent table manners and wears an Armani suit, who has a smile on his face and a George Hamilton tan on his body, who likes to tweet on his Twitter and show up at your kid's birthday party dressed as a purple dinosaur, and who will be a guy who always plays just good enough to get you beat.

Matt Robinson, traded to the Broncos when he was 25, possessed a pleasant disposition and a nice car. He was an awful quarterback two touchdowns and 12 interceptions in seven starts and shuffled off to Buffalo the next season.

People, including a head coach, who haven't lived in Denver for a long time, or aren't old enough to recall the seasons before 1977, may not be aware that the Broncos have suited up 57 quarterbacks since 1960.

There have been 50 count 'em 50 different starting quarterbacks for the Broncos in 49 seasons.

The vast majority couldn't play dead.

One ended up living under a bridge.

So, you want to go back to Frank Tripucka, Mickey Slaughter, Max Choboian, Bubby Brister and George "Don't Call Me Bernard" Shaw.

Or the three Steves, Tensi, Ramsey and DeBerg.

Tensi and Ramsey were "retired" by age 29. DeBerg had three winning seasons as a full-time starter.

The first names of three of the Broncos' four best quarterbacks begin with "J" John, Jake and Jay. The other was Craig Morton. Three of the four played quarterback for the Broncos in 31 postseason games, eight conference championships and six Super Bowls.

Of all the rest, only six played quarterback in postseason games.

Cutler is the best quarterback the Broncos have picked in the collegiate draft. (Don't hand me ex-starters Brian Griese, Tommy Maddox or Mark Herrmann.)

In 1983 the Colts drafted a young, pouting, defiant quarterback who demanded to be traded, and he was sent to Denver. The Colts didn't recover until drafting another great quarterback No. 1 in 1998, Peyton Manning.

In 1991 the Cleveland Browns hired the league's youngest head coach. He feuded with his starting quarterback, Bernie Kosar (who had lifted the Browns to three AFC championship games, only to lose to the Broncos), and eventually replaced him with Vinny Testaverde. Kosar took over for the injured Troy Aikman in the NFC championship and led the Cowboys to the victory. The Browns coach, with a 36-44 record, was fired after the 1995 season. Bill Belichick.

Shall we be clear about McJaygate? After the first reports about the trade gone awry surfaced, coach Josh McDaniels told Mike Klis of The Denver Post: "We don't want to trade Jay. We never did. He's our quarterback."

A few days ago McDaniels told Peter King of Sports Illustrated that he did pursue a deal with New England for Matt Cassel, but "I think we were too late to the dance."

This is not a prom. It's pro football.

If I were the coach, I'd fly to Nashville and tell Cutler: "I'm sorry. I made a rookie mistake. You're our quarterback."

But, Josh, and Jeff and Jody and you, go ahead and run Jay out of Our Dusty Old Cowtown, for spite.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11945954

Woody didn't sound so reconcilable on PTI a couple of nights ago when he was discussing trade possibilities for the Broncos.

TheReverend
03-19-2009, 05:43 AM
Woody didn't sound so reconcilable on PTI a couple of nights ago when he was discussing trade possibilities for the Broncos.

It's ESPN. He has to read his script.

colonelbeef
03-19-2009, 05:49 AM
GREAT ARTICLE. Thank god someone is actually thinking out in Denver.

This franchise will take decades to recover from losing Jay Cutler.

YOU DONT GIVE UP 25 YEAR OLD STAR QB's SIMPLY BECAUSE THE ROOKIE HC IS A EGOTISTICAL BONEHEAD.



Spot on, Woody.

It's amazing how easily people around here are willing to give up on a once-in-a-generation quarterback.
.


Why is this so hard for some people on this board, not to mention the idiotic front office, to understand?

I guess people like Popps and ApaOps are the kind of thinkers that allow The Lions to fail year after year, explains that dearth of logical analysis, and how it exists in otherwise seemingly sane people

SoDak Bronco
03-19-2009, 06:05 AM
Teams win SBs.

We won't be winning a SB next year. The person taking snaps for us next year isn't nearly as crucial (at this point) as people are making it out to be. It's going to be a tough, rebuilding year, no matter how you slice it.

We've got time to develop someone in our system, which McDaniels knows all about. It's his specialty.

I'd like to keep Jay, but if not... hope springs eternal.

POPPS, Teams do win Superbowls, this is an accurate statement. Most teams that win Superbowls have a Good/Great QB. Why would you want to get rid of that component of our TEAM??? This is what I dont understand, WE ARE NOT BETTER WITHOUT JAY! The TEAM is WORSE.

Broncoman13
03-19-2009, 06:08 AM
I'm not saying the kid doesn't throw the ball well.

Franchise QBs prove they can carry teams on their backs to wins, despite incredible adversity for a long period of time.

Jay has done no such thing. He's put up some nice yardage stats and throws a pretty spiral.

3-13 when the team gives up more than 30 points. That's 16 games in two full years as a starter that the team has given up 30 or more! He's only started like 40 games in his short career. When the defense gives up less than 22 points (22 isn't great mind you). He has a win pct way into the .900 range. I can't remember the exact number, but it was something like 14-1!

Anyhow, Jay Cutler is a known commodity. Cassel for McD's system was a known commodity. I can understand the move and SO CAN JAY CUTLER! He said as much, he's just asked not to be BS'd on the whole issue.

Do the Broncos 'need' to give Jay Cutler a new contract? Not yet, but it's going to take a small extension with a couple clauses for the team to show him that they truly want him. Like it or not, Cutler has an ego and feels like the Broncos could care less if he stays or goes. That's the hard stance that McD keeps portraying that is pumping oxygen into this fire... and it will continue to burn as long as he carries that same message. There is nothing wrong with having the team mentality and Jay Cutler WILL have to take a step down off his high horse and realize as much. Jay Cutler is also going to have to realize that he will need to play within McD's system. I am a consultant of sorts so I've seen and been a part of a lot of different changes. Most people don't care for change. There are a number of different reasons, but the main reasons are in full effect with Jay Cutler. Displeasure with management; Don't want to accept that you may be part of the problem; Don't like "new" or innovative techniques... all of these fit nicely with Cutler. The way McD has handled it has been poor. First, he should have identified early on that his message was not taken well by Cutler. Simple to identify, simple to address. "Jay, it looks like you may have some concerns. What's on your mind?" Followed by a, "Jay, the benefit of playing within the system is as follows... it's a chess match and we're setting up our opponents with every play. If you get outside of that then it's difficult for us to analyze what a defense is doing and what adjustments we should make. Jay, I point to the past several years in NE to show you how successful this offense can be. Limiting mistakes, playing within the system, and not improvising too much or taking what's not there will not make you less of a QB. In fact, I believe we will do just the opposite." PROBLEM SOLVED!

I like Josh McDaniels, I think he'll be effective when the camps start and he is coaching. But there is something to experience and understanding your environment. I'm sure this is all 'stuff' that he already knows, but has not yet applied. He'll learn from this and he'll grow. Hopefully Cutler will learn from this and grow as well.

I'm intrigued by the possibility of a trade that would net us a good QB and a couple of high draft picks as well. Mainly b/c this team needs a shot of talent. You get a Cassel/Quinn/whomever that can play within the system at QB and then a couple guys like Curry/Raji/Maualuga/Jenkins and you've improved the talent level of this team significantly. Coaching will only go so far, at some point you have to add talent to the equation. I don't want to see Cutler go, but I could see a scenario that would be "too good to pass up" with regards to a trade.

Drek
03-19-2009, 06:18 AM
POPPS, Teams do win Superbowls, this is an accurate statement. Most teams that win Superbowls have a Good/Great QB. Why would you want to get rid of that component of our TEAM??? This is what I dont understand, WE ARE NOT BETTER WITHOUT JAY! The TEAM is WORSE.

Yeah, if you figure getting rid of Jay happens in a vacuum.

But the trade that was considered, and never even cemented, was Jay for Cassel and some extra day one picks. Picks we could have used to fix the defense.

Again, its not something that was ever even finalized, but that was what the FO was considering Jay for Cassel and a fistful of extra picks.

SoDak Bronco
03-19-2009, 06:29 AM
Yeah, if you figure getting rid of Jay happens in a vacuum.

But the trade that was considered, and never even cemented, was Jay for Cassel and some extra day one picks. Picks we could have used to fix the defense.

Again, its not something that was ever even finalized, but that was what the FO was considering Jay for Cassel and a fistful of extra picks.

If and when a trade does go through it will all be debateable, and the MCD supporters will have their takes, but here is my point. The most important position on an NFL TEAM is the QB position. Whether MCD or POPPS or who-ever likes it or not, the QB touches the ball every play, and is going to make the most impact on the game. Now if we trade Cutler for XYZ QB unless it is for one of the top 3-4 guys in the league, you aren't getting an upgrade, therefore you are taking a step back as a TEAM. The draft picks that you may get, those aren't locks to be instant contributors, we would freaking hope and pray but who is to say how they will do. As a TEAM and a fan, if you are wanting to get rid of Cutler, you are not going to see more WINS than you would if they get this relationship back on track and JAY is our QB.

CEH
03-19-2009, 06:30 AM
Teams win SBs.

We won't be winning a SB next year. The person taking snaps for us next year isn't nearly as crucial (at this point) as people are making it out to be. It's going to be a tough, rebuilding year, no matter how you slice it.

We've got time to develop someone in our system, which McDaniels knows all about. It's his specialty.

I'd like to keep Jay, but if not... hope springs eternal.

Can we agree at some point unless we field the '00 Balt Ravens D the QB will be the central figure in whether we win the SB or not. I would argue yes. He's 25 and will continue to mature and get better.

In two years he'll be 27 and if the team drafts well on D we will be a SB contender. I bet a dollar to a donut it's easier to draft system defensive players than it is to redraft a QB.

Thats my whole point.
There is no gaurentee McD can succeeed on his own . No NE asst has so far so I don't like the premise that McD can coach any QB in his system.

SoDak Bronco
03-19-2009, 06:40 AM
Also, I would like to point out, as a former collegete athlete myself there are few things people don't realize about players and coaches. I hear a lot of people saying Jay is a whiner/we are a TEAM, no-one is bigger than the TEAM, ect ect. That is a great motto, one we've all heard, but in reality, Jay is a bigger piece to the puzzle then Tyler Polumbus or someother guy on the 53 man squad, and for the past 3 years all Jay has heard is your are the Man, you are coming in to Elway's shadow, and all he has done is embrace that. For McD to basically take a 180 stance on what he means to the team would be a shock to the system of any QB's and to me that is what has caused the most problems in this whole situation.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-19-2009, 06:48 AM
Knothead, he DOES want to play for the Broncos, he said it a million times. But after the TEAM tried to trade him behind his back, and then lied to him about it, he wants them to come clean, or trade him somewhere he's truly wanted.
,

Wants to play here so badly, he put his house up for sale.

Actions. Speak. Louder.

rugbythug
03-19-2009, 06:52 AM
Cutler is Not the Offense All in himself.

He had the Best Line in Football.

He had a top 3 Reciever Core.

This is an offense that Could and Will Play well with out him. He is a good QB but not some once in a Generation BS. Or even once in a Decade. He is once in a Year Good.

TheReverend
03-19-2009, 06:56 AM
Quick pet peeve... sorry.

When people are talking about a group, and it sounds like "core", it's "corps". When people are talking about the center of something and it sounds like "core", it's "core".

Thanks.

Steve Sewell
03-19-2009, 06:57 AM
Jay is the best young QB talent in the NFL. In fact he is the best young QB talent that the NFL has seen in a long time. He thought he was in the franchise's plans for the future. Then he finds out that McDaniels and Co. were entertaining offers to trade him for Matt Cassel. Matt Cassel is the beneficiary of ONE good season on a GREAT team...one that went 16-0 during the prior season and almost 19-0. It could be argued that the Pats of the year prior were one of the greatest teams in the history of the NFL. Sure, Cassel knows the Pats system but couldn't hold Cutlers jock in the talent department.

People like to point to Cutler's record and mistakes in key situations, etc, etc. Doesn't anyone here remember a certain #7 who was prone to these issues early on in his career? The one that had some maturity problems as well? The one who demanded a trade or was going to play baseball?

Getting rid of Cutler could potentially be one of the biggest mistakes this franchise has ever made. If I'm Pat Bowlen, I'm not putting that decision in the hand of a 32 year old rookie head coach. I'm calling Cutler, getting his ass a new contract, and telling that dumb mother****er that I just hired for head coach that he's going to deal with it or he's gone. Similar to what he did with Dan Reeves, who at the time of his firing had coached the Broncos to multiple Super Bowls and AFC West Championships.

The absurdity of this whole deal is breathtaking to behold. And I think the Broncos fan base deserves better.

/rant off

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-19-2009, 07:01 AM
Jay is the best young QB talent in the NFL. In fact he is the best young QB talent that the NFL has seen in a long time. He thought he was in the franchise's plans for the future. Then he finds out that McDaniels and Co. were entertaining offers to trade him for Matt Cassel. Matt Cassel is the beneficiary of ONE good season on a GREAT team...one that went 16-0 during the prior season and almost 19-0. It could be argued that the Pats of the year prior were one of the greatest teams in the history of the NFL. Sure, Cassel knows the Pats system but couldn't hold Cutlers jock in the talent department.

People like to point to Cutler's record and mistakes in key situations, etc, etc. Doesn't anyone here remember a certain #7 who was prone to these issues early on in his career? The one that had some maturity problems as well? The one who demanded a trade or was going to play baseball?

Getting rid of Cutler could potentially be one of the biggest mistakes this franchise has ever made. If I'm Pat Bowlen, I'm not putting that decision in the hand of a 32 year old rookie head coach. I'm calling Cutler, getting his ass a new contract, and telling that dumb mother****er that I just hired for head coach that he's going to deal with it or he's gone. Similar to what he did with Dan Reeves, who at the time of his firing had coached the Broncos to multiple Super Bowls and AFC West Championships.

The absurdity of this whole deal is breathtaking to behold. And I think the Broncos fan base deserves better.

/rant off

What else is McD supposed to do? He's told Jay, in person and through the media, that Jay is the guy here.

Sweet Christ on a cracker, this is ridiculous. Jay is not absent of blame in this situation, people. Neither is Bus Cook.

Circle Orange
03-19-2009, 07:05 AM
There isn't much news.

but I do agree with Woody.
__________________________________________________ ______


Go ahead, trade Jay Cutler! Get rid of him! Really, really punish him by sending him to Detroit! Or, better still, Siberia! Purge the pouter! Kick him to the curb and throw him under the Bus Cook!

But, remember this: Those Jeffs-, Jodys-, Jaspers-, Joshes- come-lately had better study the Broncos' history, or they are doomed to repeat the three-, four- and five-victory seasons.

Two words: Steve Ramsey.

Two more words: Steve Tensi.

Two more words: Steve DeBerg.

Lord, what fools these mortals be! Billy Shakespeare

To all the mortals inside Broncos Compound and outside Pigeon Valley who are demanding that Cutler be dumped like a load of coal, don't come crying to me after you've made that monumental mistake. Be careful what you wish for. You may get it.

Give me a quarterback who pouts and cares, who is furious and doesn't return phone calls, who wears a Ringo Starr hairstyle, his cap on backward and his shirttail sticking out, who is boastful and remote and who soon will be one of the top five at his position in the NFL.

I'll give you a quarterback who is gracious and affable, who has excellent table manners and wears an Armani suit, who has a smile on his face and a George Hamilton tan on his body, who likes to tweet on his Twitter and show up at your kid's birthday party dressed as a purple dinosaur, and who will be a guy who always plays just good enough to get you beat.

Matt Robinson, traded to the Broncos when he was 25, possessed a pleasant disposition and a nice car. He was an awful quarterback two touchdowns and 12 interceptions in seven starts and shuffled off to Buffalo the next season.

People, including a head coach, who haven't lived in Denver for a long time, or aren't old enough to recall the seasons before 1977, may not be aware that the Broncos have suited up 57 quarterbacks since 1960.

There have been 50 count 'em 50 different starting quarterbacks for the Broncos in 49 seasons.

The vast majority couldn't play dead.

One ended up living under a bridge.

So, you want to go back to Frank Tripucka, Mickey Slaughter, Max Choboian, Bubby Brister and George "Don't Call Me Bernard" Shaw.

Or the three Steves, Tensi, Ramsey and DeBerg.

Tensi and Ramsey were "retired" by age 29. DeBerg had three winning seasons as a full-time starter.

The first names of three of the Broncos' four best quarterbacks begin with "J" John, Jake and Jay. The other was Craig Morton. Three of the four played quarterback for the Broncos in 31 postseason games, eight conference championships and six Super Bowls.

Of all the rest, only six played quarterback in postseason games.

Cutler is the best quarterback the Broncos have picked in the collegiate draft. (Don't hand me ex-starters Brian Griese, Tommy Maddox or Mark Herrmann.)

In 1983 the Colts drafted a young, pouting, defiant quarterback who demanded to be traded, and he was sent to Denver. The Colts didn't recover until drafting another great quarterback No. 1 in 1998, Peyton Manning.

In 1991 the Cleveland Browns hired the league's youngest head coach. He feuded with his starting quarterback, Bernie Kosar (who had lifted the Browns to three AFC championship games, only to lose to the Broncos), and eventually replaced him with Vinny Testaverde. Kosar took over for the injured Troy Aikman in the NFC championship and led the Cowboys to the victory. The Browns coach, with a 36-44 record, was fired after the 1995 season. Bill Belichick.

Shall we be clear about McJaygate? After the first reports about the trade gone awry surfaced, coach Josh McDaniels told Mike Klis of The Denver Post: "We don't want to trade Jay. We never did. He's our quarterback."

A few days ago McDaniels told Peter King of Sports Illustrated that he did pursue a deal with New England for Matt Cassel, but "I think we were too late to the dance."

This is not a prom. It's pro football.

If I were the coach, I'd fly to Nashville and tell Cutler: "I'm sorry. I made a rookie mistake. You're our quarterback."

But, Josh, and Jeff and Jody and you, go ahead and run Jay out of Our Dusty Old Cowtown, for spite.

Woody Paige: 303-954-1095 or wpaige@denverpost.com
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11945954

And for the billionth time, Cutler is not Elway. The situations are not identical, no matter how Paige tries to twist this. Enough already.

WolfpackGuy
03-19-2009, 07:13 AM
Players put fans in the seats, not coaches.
Bowlen needs to step the **** up and quit deferring everything to McD.

El Guapo
03-19-2009, 07:13 AM
Very, VERY well said Woody. C'mon guys, fix this! Cutler is our man!

Steve Sewell
03-19-2009, 07:14 AM
What else is McD supposed to do? He's told Jay, in person and through the media, that Jay is the guy here.

Sweet Christ on a cracker, this is ridiculous. Jay is not absent of blame in this situation, people. Neither is Bus Cook.

McD entertained a trade that would have gotten rid of Cutler and brought Matt Cassel in his place. Actions speak louder than words.

Jay knows that he's the best young QB talent in the NFL. If I were in his place I would be insulted by the situation as well, and incredibly unsure of my future with the team.

Look at the situation and put yourself in his shoes. You are coming off a Pro Bowl season, your 2nd one as a full time starter. Your mentor is fired, and your QB coach who you are very close with is not retained. Then, after you've met with your new coach and been assured that things are going to be good, you find out 2nd hand that you were involved in trade talks that would have brought another QB to Denver and sent you packing? How would you feel about your future in Denver? Good? C'mon! Hilarious!

521 1N5
03-19-2009, 07:17 AM
In the meanwhile, the ****bag doesn't want to play in Denver. You really think the organization is going to lower themselves to chasing this guy all over the country so they can plant one on his arse?




That's the very little thing a lot of the folks on this board don't understand. He doesn't want to play for The Broncos. There were trade talks before the whole Cassel thing - From Cutler/Cook. Just because his offensive coaching staff were fired. Keep Jay and McD has loses a lot of his authority in my opinion. Jay is a baby, and we will have to go through this **** every year if there is any little thing that he is unhappy with. I'll tell you this though, McD better do his research and be the quarterback genius he claims to be, if he brings in a Matt Robinson we will be out a QB and a coach. Team first, player second.

El Guapo
03-19-2009, 07:21 AM
Wants to play here so badly, he put his house up for sale.

Actions. Speak. Louder.

C'mon, he had been planning to do that for awhile now anyways. I'm sure it helped emphasize his point, or garner the Broncos attention, but I expect him to be back if McD can let his pride fall down.

Circle Orange
03-19-2009, 07:22 AM
The assumption that he's going to light this franchise afire is at best premature...you have to let things play out. There are NO guarantees as to how good Jay will be. As far as the pro bowl....favre made the pro bowl, too. Leading the league in picks!

just sayin.

also, if the guy dosen't want to be here, why would fans? he wouldn't give his best and could end up lockerroom cancer.

El Guapo
03-19-2009, 07:23 AM
The assumption that he's going to light this franchise afire is at best premature...you have to let things play out. There are NO guarantees as to how good Jay will be. As far as the pro bowl....favre made the pro bowl, too. Leading the league in picks!

just sayin.



He's a whole lot better than anything else that is out there. The idea of losing Cutler is ludicrous.

Steve Sewell
03-19-2009, 07:28 AM
He's a whole lot better than anything else that is out there. The idea of losing Cutler is ludicrous.

^This.

I can't believe how some people think that getting rid of Cutler would be a good thing for the Broncos right now.

Steve Sewell
03-19-2009, 07:30 AM
The assumption that he's going to light this franchise afire is at best premature...you have to let things play out. There are NO guarantees as to how good Jay will be. As far as the pro bowl....favre made the pro bowl, too. Leading the league in picks!

just sayin.

also, if the guy dosen't want to be here, why would fans? he wouldn't give his best and could end up lockerroom cancer.

He's always been a good locker room guy. The players like Jay. He is a pain in the ass for people who like to dick around with him in the business and media worlds though, which is to his detriment. He is learning to play the game and is doing quite well at it right now.

Lolad
03-19-2009, 07:44 AM
Cutler is Not the Offense All in himself.

He had the Best Line in Football.

He had a top 3 Reciever Core.

This is an offense that Could and Will Play well with out him. He is a good QB but not some once in a Generation BS. Or even once in a Decade. He is once in a Year Good.

Let me get this straight you think any QB can win in denver because we have good receivers? What the **** did Leinart do in Arizona with Boldin and Fitzgerald? NOTHING!!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-19-2009, 07:48 AM
McD entertained a trade that would have gotten rid of Cutler and brought Matt Cassel in his place. Actions speak louder than words.

Jay knows that he's the best young QB talent in the NFL. If I were in his place I would be insulted by the situation as well, and incredibly unsure of my future with the team.

Look at the situation and put yourself in his shoes. You are coming off a Pro Bowl season, your 2nd one as a full time starter. Your mentor is fired, and your QB coach who you are very close with is not retained. Then, after you've met with your new coach and been assured that things are going to be good, you find out 2nd hand that you were involved in trade talks that would have brought another QB to Denver and sent you packing? How would you feel about your future in Denver? Good? C'mon! Hilarious!

And I totally get that. And all he's done since that happened is say, over and over, that Jay Cutler is our quarterback. The ONE GUY that he would have taken over Cutler was his prodigy from his last job, and he's not available. Since Cassel is not available, Cutler is not going anywhere. This has been made clear several times.

So... what's the problem? Oh, right. Jay's feelings are hurt. Give me a break.

Throw a signed no-trade clause in front of him and see if that does the trick. If what he's saying is legit, if he's not just angling for money, he should have no problem with that.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-19-2009, 07:49 AM
C'mon, he had been planning to do that for awhile now anyways. I'm sure it helped emphasize his point, or garner the Broncos attention, but I expect him to be back if McD can let his pride fall down.

Yeah, he's been planning to do it for a while, but the timing (two days before his meeting with Broncos brass) is obviously a ploy. He went into that meeting NOT EXPECTING A RESOLUTION. Way to keep an open mind, Jay.

Taco John
03-19-2009, 08:06 AM
That's the very little thing a lot of the folks on this board don't understand. He doesn't want to play for The Broncos. There were trade talks before the whole Cassel thing - From Cutler/Cook.



There were NOT trade talks from the Cutler/Cook camp before the Cassel thing. This is a fabrication that has been spreading that is not true.

And if it were true, it would have become news when it happened. They wouldn't have to ask for a trade twice. Cutler asked to be traded only after March 14, not prior to it.

Taco John
03-19-2009, 08:10 AM
The assumption that he's going to light this franchise afire is at best premature...


He's already lit the franchise on fire. We sent him to the Pro Bowl during an 8-8 season. Nothing pre-mature about fans getting excited about Cutler.

Ambiguous
03-19-2009, 09:05 AM
I have to say I agree with Woody 100% on this one.

Drek
03-19-2009, 09:24 AM
If and when a trade does go through it will all be debateable, and the MCD supporters will have their takes, but here is my point. The most important position on an NFL TEAM is the QB position. Whether MCD or POPPS or who-ever likes it or not, the QB touches the ball every play, and is going to make the most impact on the game. Now if we trade Cutler for XYZ QB unless it is for one of the top 3-4 guys in the league, you aren't getting an upgrade, therefore you are taking a step back as a TEAM. The draft picks that you may get, those aren't locks to be instant contributors, we would freaking hope and pray but who is to say how they will do. As a TEAM and a fan, if you are wanting to get rid of Cutler, you are not going to see more WINS than you would if they get this relationship back on track and JAY is our QB.

So hypothetically if they traded Jay to Detroit for the #1, #20, and #33 picks, and then flipped #33 for Cassel to NE (trumping KC's offer), allowing them to have this for a draft:
1 - Curry
12 - Raji
33 - Clay Matthews

You wouldn't think this team would be significantly better than it would with just Cutler and one pick at #12 heading into '09?

When Cassel knows McDaniels offense already and the defense is woefully under talented in the front seven?

I'd expect a team with those players to be 10-6 at worst, because the defense would suddenly jump into the middle of the pack and the offense wouldn't be any worse than the back half of the top 10.

Its all theoretical, but when Tampa and Detroit are throwing around multiple first day picks for a single guy you got to explore it. No player, even a very talented QB, is worth a Herschel Walker deal.

Archer81
03-19-2009, 09:26 AM
Sometimes you need to blow something completely up to build something better.

I just wish this will end already.

:Broncos:

TheReverend
03-19-2009, 09:30 AM
So hypothetically if they traded Jay to Detroit for the #1, #20, and #33 picks, and then flipped #33 for Cassel to NE (trumping KC's offer), allowing them to have this for a draft:
1 - Curry
12 - Raji
33 - Clay Matthews

You wouldn't think this team would be significantly better than it would with just Cutler and one pick at #12 heading into '09?

When Cassel knows McDaniels offense already and the defense is woefully under talented in the front seven?

I'd expect a team with those players to be 10-6 at worst, because the defense would suddenly jump into the middle of the pack and the offense wouldn't be any worse than the back half of the top 10.

Its all theoretical, but when Tampa and Detroit are throwing around multiple first day picks for a single guy you got to explore it. No player, even a very talented QB, is worth a Herschel Walker deal.

Okay, so you said we flipped 33.

Leaving
1 - Curry
12 - Raji

Assuming that both Raji is available at 12, and can play NT in a 3-4.

So, in your opinion: Curry, Cassell, Raji > Cutler, Raji

Taco John
03-19-2009, 09:33 AM
There's no way in hell Raji is going to be available at #12.

Houshyamama
03-19-2009, 09:38 AM
The only point he makes here is that we may regret losing Jay.

Thanks for clearing that up, Woody.

In the meanwhile, the ****bag doesn't want to play in Denver. You really think the organization is going to lower themselves to chasing this guy all over the country so they can plant one on his arse?

Get over it, Woody. I'd rather root for Chris Simms than someone who doesn't want to play for my Denver Broncos.

Popps is getting his feelings seriously hurt in this whole business.

LOL

Popps
03-19-2009, 09:42 AM
He doesn't want to play for Josh... not Denver. Big difference.

Wrong.

His contract is with the Denver Broncos.

Again, Jay has a real problem remembering his place in the universe.


Organization: Handles all personnel and organizational issues.

Quarterback kid: Throw-ball-good, beer pong, chase tail.

Popps
03-19-2009, 09:44 AM
Popps is getting his feelings seriously hurt in this whole business.

LOL

Feelings?

I don't recall saying that. I do love the Broncos, though. Guess that happens over 30 years of rooting.

But, no hard feelings. Good luck to you, Jay and your new team.

TheReverend
03-19-2009, 09:54 AM
Wrong.

His contract is with the Denver Broncos.

Again, Jay has a real problem remembering his place in the universe.


Organization: Handles all personnel and organizational issues.

Quarterback kid: Throw-ball-good, beer pong, chase tail.

I can't help but notice you don't have "voluntarily lift weights with the fellas" in your responsibilities list. So he's fine in your book, right?

Drek
03-19-2009, 09:59 AM
Okay, so you said we flipped 33.

Leaving
1 - Curry
12 - Raji

Assuming that both Raji is available at 12, and can play NT in a 3-4.

So, in your opinion: Curry, Cassell, Raji > Cutler, Raji

You're right, my mistake (on #33).

And I'd personally say yes. The proven gap between Cutler and Cassel is not as large as the gap between Curry and any other alternative we have for SOLB, which is a vital part of a good 3-4 front.

In fact, I'd say the gap between Curry and anyone else in this draft is bigger than the gap between Cassel and Cutler, because Curry is the only truly elite player in this class. He plays LB so he'll slide, but if he winds up in KC he's going to make life hell on the Broncos for a very long time.

There's no way in hell Raji is going to be available at #12.

Probably not, but it was a hypothetical example to frame what the FO was discussing by even listening to talks for Cutler. I could have just as easily put in Orakpo, Everette Brown, or Malcolm Jenkins at #12, its entirely ancillary.

The point of it is, our defense has what, one guy who's a safe bet to be playing at a high level for the Broncos in three years (DJ Williams)? Champ is a maybe, but the lack of a quality SOLB in front of him has chopped years off his career already. Larsen, Woodyard, Dumervil, Thomas, all are maybes to be good players, but nothing for sure. Dawkins will be gone. The solid vets we picked up this off-season (Hill and Goodman) will be gone.

This team has a MASSIVE need for as much first day talent as it can acquire on defense. At the same time though it needs to keep spending enough value on the offense to maintain or better what we currently have on that side of the ball. Thats a ton of holes that need to be addressed, and the potential return for Cutler would go a long way towards addressing them.

Simply considering an option that would result in us taking one step back at QB to take three steps forward on the entire defensive side of the ball isn't the massive travesty that so many people here are trying to frame it as.

Broncoman13
03-19-2009, 10:02 AM
Okay, so you said we flipped 33.

Leaving
1 - Curry
12 - Raji

Assuming that both Raji is available at 12, and can play NT in a 3-4.

So, in your opinion: Curry, Cassell, Raji > Cutler, Raji

I think he meant Mathews at #20 which was part of his trade from Detroit... not 33.

Either way, I can't see paying a LB $65m with $35m in guaranteed money, nor do I think Raji will be available at #12.

I do think that Mathews will be available at #20 and he would be a good pick there, IMO.

NFLBRONCO
03-19-2009, 10:13 AM
Spot on, Woody.

It's amazing how easily people around here are willing to give up on a once-in-a-generation quarterback.
.

I didn't know we had the power to keep or trade him I thought that was McD's job.


I'm with you on Denver should keep him but, I can see why the org might want to move on.

1. Immaturity
2. With his a McD relationship this bad now how will 6-10 09 season cure it?

3. I really don't see how Denver will do a longterm deal this year after this episode.

Winning alot and longterm deal might be only thing that will allow them to co-exist together

BroncoBuff
03-19-2009, 10:16 AM
A clutch QB doesn't play his worst games down the stretch, when a single win in three games locks up the division for us.

He's got great peripherals, sure, he got stuck with a horrible defense last year. Also true. But there were more than enough winnable games out there last year to clinch the division and Cutler failed to deliver.

"More than enough" winnable games? The Bills, Panthers and Chargers scored practically at will aagainst our pathetic defense over the last three weeks ... Carolina was the only bad game Jay had.

In my opinion, a "clutch quarterback" proves himself by converting 3rd downs and playing lights-out in the fourth quarter. Jay has proven both in spades since his very first start against Seattle in '06.

I wish I had time to find the thread where Jay's record as a QB - broken down by record when defense allows 'X' number of points. It's a real eye-opener, he's practically undefeated when the defense allows 24 or less points.


Jay Cutler got a big fat signing bonus when he came here. He's already been paid most of it. So just because he got a ton of money up front he now has the right to b**** and moan about being underpaid?

He's already been paid for services the franchise expected him to render over the next three years. He's reneging on the very financial deal he agreed to.
I hate to lose respect for you, you're about my favorite poster, but that is 100% bull****. Yet again, I'm going to call you on this and ask you for a source/link for your bizarre accusation that Jay is bitch-ing about being underpaid. There isn't one, so just like the last two times, you won't be able to provide one.

You really lose me - you and other posters who do this - when you criticize Jay or anyone for something that has ZERO support in fact.

Jay has never complained about what he's paid. Period.

Unless you have a link?


Also, bringing up Cassel basically shows a complete lack of understanding towards how NFL business management works. He would've been extended though it would've been the team's desire to do so, not the player's, as it will still be with KC. Its entirely impossible to relate the two situations.
I misunderstand how NFL management works?! You're the one who said "basically every GM around the league has gone on record" the Broncos weren't shopping Cutler.


Thats from McDaniels' own mouth and has been corroborated by reporters who still have their credibility in tact (like Shefter).
Corraborated ... by reporters? Another head-scratcher there. Reporters don't "corroborate" anything, reporters REPORT. SOURCES corroborate. All Schefter and any reporter does is report what Cutler, McD and other sources tell them. I'm really perplexed at how posters on both sides of this argument miss that, they act as if the reports are first-hand accounts. They're not of course, they're just telling us what they're told.


From Jay himself this supposed lie was that McDaniels said he was looking forward to coaching Cutler, then considered a deal for Cassel.

I'd hope you of all people have a logical enough mind to see that this is clearly not a lie. Anticipation of working with Cutler does not in any way guarantee he will not even hear out his options as it pertains to QB. Anticipation about going to see a movie doesn't mean I'll see it day one regardless of what else is playing. Looking forward to going to a new restaurant that is opening up down the street doesn't mean I won't consider eating anywhere else in the near term.
"Clearly" not a lie? Nothing seems clear to me anymore. But actually you're right, I don't think that part was a lie.

Here's what I think - although I'll admit this is speculation - I think Josh was fine with Cutler, until the Pats started shopping Cassel. Josh wanted Cassel, became actively involved in trade talks, but lost out. THEN I think this 32 year-old kid-coordinator with zero front office experience tried to be "slick-like-Belichick" and lie to Jay that they only "listened." Because he has zero front office experience (and plenty of hubris), he foolishly believed he could keep his involvement in trade talks quiet. THAT'S the problem as I see it. This kid had no concept of the network of people that talk and share info. And Jay found out the Broncos were involved in talks.

I think you're about the only guy left who believes the Broncos did NOT try to trade Cutler for Cassel. That's basically a given now in every quarter. The problems now, the issues here, are how those trade discussions were handled by the parties.

You're also one of the few guys left who disagrees that Josh is completely in charge here, and Xanders is nothing more than a Ted Sundquist-type "GM." Just read over your posts, my posts here, and all the reports everywhere. Nobody's talking about Xanders, becauae Xanders doesn't matter. I wish more people would see this, what Herm Edwards, Woody Paige and I keep saying, that a big part of all this is that this kid has no front office experience, and he's been given


What has taken this entire thing into a downward spiral is that Cutler brought Cook in, who is a master of playing hard ball with organizations. That is what is now happening. I've said it in probably a half dozen other posts.
I dunno ... that is what is NOW happening, yes. But it seems to me that Cook got involved a bit late in the game. Most reports sound like Jay was giving Bus info at the start of this ... when he first called Bus to say "are they trying to trade me?", supposedly Bus said, "no way."


If Jay would just go to Denver, tell Cook to stay the hell home, and sit down with McDaniels one on one like McDaniels has been asking him to do for weeks now, this problem would be resolved. Jay needs to hear McDaniels side sans Cook spin and without it boiling into an agent/GM contentious negotiation like the last meeting did.

As for Woody's article, of course we don't want to trade Cutler. But if he isn't going to respond to the owner of the franchise, have any trust in his new HC, or work out with his teammates in a voluntary camp that will be very important for the offense this season (to learn a new system) then I don't see where the Broncos are being given much choice.
I agree with all of this ... especially the bolded part. I'm glad to see you'd rather not trade him, I don't understand some of these other Josh-supporters who seem to want to get rid of this kid.

Act in haste, repent in L-E-I-S-U-R-E. We're gonna regret this move long after Josh has moved on out of Denver ... which almost certainly will happen before Jay's career is over.
.

Taco John
03-19-2009, 10:19 AM
Probably not, but it was a hypothetical example to frame what the FO was discussing by even listening to talks for Cutler. I could have just as easily put in Orakpo, Everette Brown, or Malcolm Jenkins at #12, its entirely ancillary.


It's not entirely ancillary. The #12 with Raji being there is a significantly different picture than if it's Jenkins sitting there. You're giving pipe dream scenarios like Raji, Orakpo and Brown, as though teams ahead of us (like Green Bay, Jacksonville, Cleveland, Kansas City, Oakland) don't have the same needs that we have. By the time we pick at #12, we might as well effectively be in the second round, because the talent level there is going to be equivalent.

TheReverend
03-19-2009, 10:30 AM
You're right, my mistake (on #33).

And I'd personally say yes. The proven gap between Cutler and Cassel is not as large as the gap between Curry and any other alternative we have for SOLB, which is a vital part of a good 3-4 front.

In fact, I'd say the gap between Curry and anyone else in this draft is bigger than the gap between Cassel and Cutler, because Curry is the only truly elite player in this class. He plays LB so he'll slide, but if he winds up in KC he's going to make life hell on the Broncos for a very long time.

So you think the value is better because you believe the projected gap between Curry and other options is that much greater than the NFL quality gap between Cutler and Cassell at the marquee position of a professional football team?

Really?

Also, don't forget to factor in salary cap implications.

Cutler 1.1 million vs 15 million for Cassell + 15 for Curry

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Houshyamama
03-19-2009, 10:43 AM
Feelings?

I don't recall saying that. I do love the Broncos, though. Guess that happens over 30 years of rooting.

But, no hard feelings. Good luck to you, Jay and your new team.

You got about 20 years on me ;)

BroncsRule
03-19-2009, 12:22 PM
"Every player is replaceable - as long as you have a replacement."

Al Davis

From the mouths of babes, and rotting corpses.

Northman
03-19-2009, 12:26 PM
Nothing new. Another blowhard who thinks the end of the world is coming.

Pontius Pirate
03-19-2009, 12:31 PM
Woody "I got fired from ESPN for sexual harassment" Paige? Yeah, he comes across as a good source for advice

http://joshmadison.com/images/uploads/articles/woody-paige/IMG_1045.jpg

Circle Orange
03-19-2009, 01:55 PM
I GOT IT! We'll trade Cuts for J Russell and ten cans of baked beans!!Booya!

Bob's your Information Minister
03-19-2009, 02:04 PM
Pretty weak article. How long did Woody peruse pro football reference to compile the long list of quarterbacks that have played for the Broncos?

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-19-2009, 02:12 PM
Pretty weak article. How long did Woody peruse pro football reference to compile the long list of quarterbacks that have played for the Broncos?

Reminded me of some of the drivel you can find on WPI.

By the way, Clayton manBoob, it may not be wise to criticize a guy who is an institution in Denver. Especially when you're a second-rate writer for a third-rate publication in a fourth-rate city.

Popps
03-19-2009, 02:15 PM
I can't help but notice you don't have "voluntarily lift weights with the fellas" in your responsibilities list. So he's fine in your book, right?

He's fine if he does his job. But, working out with your team would be part of throw-ball-good, in my opinion. But, I guess I'm demanding like that... I sort of figure a millionaire could grip a few weights with teammates he "loves."

Popps
03-19-2009, 02:18 PM
Pretty weak article. How long did Woody peruse pro football reference to compile the long list of quarterbacks that have played for the Broncos?

Dude, put him in contact with your source over at the Circle K food-mart.

Bob's your Information Minister
03-19-2009, 02:26 PM
Reminded me of some of the drivel you can find on WPI.

By the way, Clayton manBoob, it may not be wise to criticize a guy who is an institution in Denver. Especially when you're a second-rate writer for a third-rate publication in a fourth-rate city.

Who gives a ****?

Any number of retards on this board can peruse pro football reference and look at Denver's quarterback history.

Must be nice to get paid as much as Woody does for such a weak effort. Oh, but he threw in some Shakespeare. Wohoo!

And this is coming from someone who normally enjoys WP.

Drek
03-19-2009, 03:16 PM
"More than enough" winnable games? The Bills, Panthers and Chargers scored practically at will aagainst our pathetic defense over the last three weeks ... Carolina was the only bad game Jay had.
What was Jay Cutler's QB rating last year?

86.0

How many games did Jay Cutler have a QB rating in the 80's? Zero.

How many did he have below 78? 8. Every game we lost.

How many did he have over 90? 8. Every game we won.

You can chalk it up to poor defense all you want, but the defense wasn't out there when we had the ball forcing Cutler to post a sub-78 QB rating. We lost games when Jay played bad, we won when Jay played well. I'd assume if that holds true for someone like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, etc. then their teams finish above .500 and make the playoffs. It sure as hell didn't for the Broncos though.

He finished the season with three straight games of sub-75 QB rating games. You can make a damn good argument that in those games he was putting at least as much pressure on the defense as they were putting on him.

He isn't a great player yet. He's horribly inconsistent and that is with an arsenal of weapons around him and an OL that had four guys who had a legitimate argument for belonging on the All-Pro team last year. He's got a ton of talent and sometimes that shows up in spades late in games. But last season it sure as hell didn't when the games mattered the most.

I hate to lose respect for you, you're about my favorite poster, but that is 100% bull****. Yet again, I'm going to call you on this and ask you for a source/link for your bizarre accusation that Jay is b****-ing about being underpaid. There isn't one, so just like the last two times, you won't be able to provide one.

You really lose me - you and other posters who do this - when you criticize Jay or anyone for something that has ZERO support in fact.

Jay has never complained about what he's paid. Period.

Unless you have a link?
He's never overtly claimed he wants a new deal. I wouldn't be surprised if a big fat new contract would make this all go away though.

However, what I was responding to was the statements others on here have made repeatedly that the Broncos should now just bend over and give him a new deal to fix this little fiasco. The common reasons cited are that his cap number for '09 is about 1/3rd of Chris Simms' and that the team considered Matt Cassel and his current $14.65M cap number. As though somehow Cutler's salary for '09 can be viewed with those in a vacuum completely ignorant to the fact that Cutler still has three years left on his rookie deal where he got a ton of money up front.

I misunderstand how NFL management works?! You're the one who said "basically every GM around the league has gone on record" the Broncos weren't shopping Cutler.
1. this quote you're referencing (as well as the one I just replied to) was actually not related to the comments of yours I quoted at all, but instead a rebuttal to Blueflame's and others view that we need to give Cutler big fat truckloads of cash because he is now coming into a low salary year. She reference the big ass contract Cassel will get like somehow that was even remotely similar to Cutler's current contract (its not). Nothing to do with anything I quoted from you.

But FYI, I've said that multiple solid sources have said they weren't shopping him. What you're doing with that quote is making an incorrect inference based on me saying that if the Broncos were actually shopping him, don't you think all these teams who suddenly are now interested (Cleveland, Washington, NYJ, Minny, etc.) would've been at least contacted back then? Instead only Detroit and Tampa were linked.

I didn't say GMs went on record, at least not that I recall (getting a little Pat Bowlen here, I know) but that if the Broncos were actively shopping Cutler like you seem to think then there would've been a lot more leaks to follow the Tampa and Detroit stories. Unless you think NFL FOs have such a low value on Cutler that all these other teams simply passed off hand.


Corraborated ... by reporters? Another head-scratcher there. Reporters don't "corroborate" anything, reporters REPORT. SOURCES corroborate. All Schefter and any reporter does is report what Cutler, McD and other sources tell them. I'm really perplexed at how posters on both sides of this argument miss that, they act as if the reports are first-hand accounts. They're not of course, they're just telling us what they're told.
Its probably not the ideal way to phrase it, but a reporter does corroborate through a source. More accurately the source corroborates and the reporter passes it along, like Shefter and others have done here with sources that confirm McDaniels' side of things.

I think you're about the only guy left who believes the Broncos did NOT try to trade Cutler for Cassel. That's basically a given now in every quarter. The problems now, the issues here, are how those trade discussions were handled by the parties.
Really? It doesn't seem like a given to me at all, or even something that is predominantly held on this very board. A lot of the extremely pro-Cutler group stick their fingers in their ears when it comes time to listen to the other side of the argument, so they mistake McDaniels even checking on the availability of Cassel as some "THE DEAL IS DONE!" smoking gun, which couldn't be further from the truth. Its an incredibly obtuse view but one that seems to get espoused around here pretty heavily by the neo-Cutler segment of this forum.

You're also one of the few guys left who disagrees that Josh is completely in charge here, and Xanders is nothing more than a Ted Sundquist-type "GM." Just read over your posts, my posts here, and all the reports everywhere. Nobody's talking about Xanders, becauae Xanders doesn't matter. I wish more people would see this, what Herm Edwards, Woody Paige and I keep saying, that a big part of all this is that this kid has no front office experience, and he's been given
Edwards and Paige are quite possibly in the running for the least in the know people on this topic that you could find.

What I see is a front office not unlike what the Patriots employ. Its a front office that does have McDaniels as the final say on any personnel matter that doesn't involve cap management or a big enough move to require Bowlen's input, but he's still not nearly as powerful as Shanahan was. We can tell that simply by how much more Bowlen has put himself out there. And we get some definition of Xanders' role in how McDaniels felt obligated to bring him in when an agent would be present in a player/coach meeting.

They all have their roles. McDaniels role is pretty indisputably more powerful than Xanders' as it pertains to player personnel, but that doesn't mean he's even close to Shanahan levels of control or that Xanders is basically an organizational yes man a la Sundquist (who now pretty openly admits that a big reason he was canned was disagreeing with Shanahan on the Jake/Jay situation).

I dunno ... that is what is NOW happening, yes. But it seems to me that Cook got involved a bit late in the game. Most reports sound like Jay was giving Bus info at the start of this ... when he first called Bus to say "are they trying to trade me?", supposedly Bus said, "no way."
So says Cook and Cutler, but we had comments from Cook that very weekend. He was pretty damn quick with his media blitz and delivering a uniform message. I'd think most can see how suspicious that actually looks.

SouthStndJunkie
03-19-2009, 03:17 PM
Now that is practically a thesis.

rastaman
03-19-2009, 03:48 PM
Now that is practically a thesis.

You'll have to excuse "Derek"....he's truly a legend in his own mind!!!!!:wiggle:

Broncos4tw
03-19-2009, 05:28 PM
I've not heard Jay say ONCE he doesn't want to be in Denver. I have heard him say multiple times that he DOES want to be here. So please can that wild speculation, for that is all it is.

I agree with the article, and said it over the last week. I'll take a QB with some attitude, but is good with the players, plays hard, and is a real talent. We'd be foolish in the extreme to give up a franchise QB for a scrub.

And make no mistake, the team could absolutely make things right with Jay.

All I hear from the Cutler-haters is that he wants to leave (he never said that), that he asked to be traded (he never said that), and that he wants a new contract (his agent emphatically said they never asked for one, or even a restructuring, NOR have the Broncos indicated he has asked for one).

So all the negatives are about things people have no proof over, they are just speculating. Jay hates this city! He wants a huge contract! He wants out! He is a huge crybaby! And yet, the only actual proof of misdeed is McD going back on his word, and he DID admit it.

They could make things right. They should make things right. They should not let a QB with exceptional talent just leave because the coach is to proud to say sorry and make things right.

TonyR
03-19-2009, 07:10 PM
I've not heard Jay say ONCE he doesn't want to be in Denver. I have heard him say multiple times that he DOES want to be here. So please can that wild speculation, for that is all it is.


Really? Wild speculation?

Really, it's best for me to move on.

I'm disappointed because I love being a Bronco but I think it's run its course

Two direct quotes from Jay Cutler. Do you want to reconsider your postion?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3983805&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines

titan
03-19-2009, 07:15 PM
Columnists like Woody must love all this Cutler drama. Gives them enough to write about for weeks. Next from Woody don't be surprised if we see a column about his lunch with Brian Griese recently. Griese talks about this and the Cutler situation here:

http://is.gd/o7cW

NFLBRONCO
03-19-2009, 07:29 PM
Just for grins we trade Jay for #1 and #20

Denver nets Curry Tyson Jackson Vontae Davis

You still think our franchise is in ruins. QB position will be iffy but, our D got alot better quickly.

Rock Chalk
03-19-2009, 07:34 PM
Spot on, Woody.

It's amazing how easily people around here are willing to give up on a once-in-a-generation quarterback.
.

Crown his ass!

He's not a once in a generation QB. Lots of QBs have come in with strong arms on crap teams and had losing records but made good passes with an average at best QB rating.

Taco John
03-19-2009, 07:36 PM
Crown his ass!

He's not a once in a generation QB. Lots of QBs have come in with strong arms on crap teams and had losing records but made good passes with an average at best QB rating.

When he says "one in a generation," he talking about what a team will see.

Rock Chalk
03-19-2009, 07:41 PM
When he says "one in a generation," he talking about what a team will see.

Sorry dude, but John Elway was our once in a generation QB. Im part of the generation and so are you and so are 99% of the people on this board.

We got our once in a generation QB. It will be a while likely before we get another one. Cutler isnt it. Not yet. I guess he still could be it, but it looks more and more likely that he is closer to Jeff George than John Elway.

I mean, John played on a few crap teams in his time, but he still won games. Cutler isnt that guy. he needs a good team, he needs a bottle, and he needs a hug.

Cutler right now, is an average QB with tons of potential. Look I know ive said this like a broken record, but you guys are seeing more than is there. At least right now. Maybe its the potential you are hoping comes to fruiting but more often than not in the NFL, potential never gets realized. ESPECIALLY with QBs.

His attitude and demeanor are going to be a problem throughout his career. Ifhe is blowing up like this over trade talks I have NO FAITH in him to lead the team when the chips are down and everything is on the line. He doesnt have the mental fortitude for it.

BroncoBuff
03-19-2009, 08:08 PM
Sorry dude, but John Elway was our once in a generation QB. Im part of the generation and so are you and so are 99% of the people on this board.

We got our once in a generation QB.

A generation is 20-25 years ... it's been 26 since we got Elway.
.

Rohirrim
03-19-2009, 08:23 PM
Sorry dude, but John Elway was our once in a generation QB. Im part of the generation and so are you and so are 99% of the people on this board.

We got our once in a generation QB. It will be a while likely before we get another one. Cutler isnt it. Not yet. I guess he still could be it, but it looks more and more likely that he is closer to Jeff George than John Elway.

I mean, John played on a few crap teams in his time, but he still won games. Cutler isnt that guy. he needs a good team, he needs a bottle, and he needs a hug.

Cutler right now, is an average QB with tons of potential. Look I know ive said this like a broken record, but you guys are seeing more than is there. At least right now. Maybe its the potential you are hoping comes to fruiting but more often than not in the NFL, potential never gets realized. ESPECIALLY with QBs.

His attitude and demeanor are going to be a problem throughout his career. Ifhe is blowing up like this over trade talks I have NO FAITH in him to lead the team when the chips are down and everything is on the line. He doesnt have the mental fortitude for it.

Like the last three games of last year.

Elway777
03-19-2009, 10:24 PM
A few days ago McDaniels told Peter King of Sports Illustrated that he did pursue a deal with New England for Matt Cassel, but "I think we were too late to the dance." McIdiot lied to anybody in Denver about it. Saying that he lessens to trade offers for all players when he was the one pushing for a trade. How could this pewey ,arrorant ass#ole put the Denver fanchise in such disarray and put himself above Denver and its fans. I be surprised if McIdiot makes makes out of Denver alive after one year.

hambone13
03-19-2009, 10:24 PM
What was Jay Cutler's QB rating last year?

86.0

How many games did Jay Cutler have a QB rating in the 80's? Zero.

How many did he have below 78? 8. Every game we lost.

How many did he have over 90? 8. Every game we won.

You can chalk it up to poor defense all you want, but the defense wasn't out there when we had the ball forcing Cutler to post a sub-78 QB rating. We lost games when Jay played bad, we won when Jay played well. I'd assume if that holds true for someone like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, etc. then their teams finish above .500 and make the playoffs. It sure as hell didn't for the Broncos though.

He finished the season with three straight games of sub-75 QB rating games. You can make a damn good argument that in those games he was putting at least as much pressure on the defense as they were putting on him.

He isn't a great player yet. He's horribly inconsistent and that is with an arsenal of weapons around him and an OL that had four guys who had a legitimate argument for belonging on the All-Pro team last year. He's got a ton of talent and sometimes that shows up in spades late in games. But last season it sure as hell didn't when the games mattered the most.


He's never overtly claimed he wants a new deal. I wouldn't be surprised if a big fat new contract would make this all go away though.

However, what I was responding to was the statements others on here have made repeatedly that the Broncos should now just bend over and give him a new deal to fix this little fiasco. The common reasons cited are that his cap number for '09 is about 1/3rd of Chris Simms' and that the team considered Matt Cassel and his current $14.65M cap number. As though somehow Cutler's salary for '09 can be viewed with those in a vacuum completely ignorant to the fact that Cutler still has three years left on his rookie deal where he got a ton of money up front.


1. this quote you're referencing (as well as the one I just replied to) was actually not related to the comments of yours I quoted at all, but instead a rebuttal to Blueflame's and others view that we need to give Cutler big fat truckloads of cash because he is now coming into a low salary year. She reference the big ass contract Cassel will get like somehow that was even remotely similar to Cutler's current contract (its not). Nothing to do with anything I quoted from you.

But FYI, I've said that multiple solid sources have said they weren't shopping him. What you're doing with that quote is making an incorrect inference based on me saying that if the Broncos were actually shopping him, don't you think all these teams who suddenly are now interested (Cleveland, Washington, NYJ, Minny, etc.) would've been at least contacted back then? Instead only Detroit and Tampa were linked.

I didn't say GMs went on record, at least not that I recall (getting a little Pat Bowlen here, I know) but that if the Broncos were actively shopping Cutler like you seem to think then there would've been a lot more leaks to follow the Tampa and Detroit stories. Unless you think NFL FOs have such a low value on Cutler that all these other teams simply passed off hand.



Its probably not the ideal way to phrase it, but a reporter does corroborate through a source. More accurately the source corroborates and the reporter passes it along, like Shefter and others have done here with sources that confirm McDaniels' side of things.


Really? It doesn't seem like a given to me at all, or even something that is predominantly held on this very board. A lot of the extremely pro-Cutler group stick their fingers in their ears when it comes time to listen to the other side of the argument, so they mistake McDaniels even checking on the availability of Cassel as some "THE DEAL IS DONE!" smoking gun, which couldn't be further from the truth. Its an incredibly obtuse view but one that seems to get espoused around here pretty heavily by the neo-Cutler segment of this forum.


Edwards and Paige are quite possibly in the running for the least in the know people on this topic that you could find.

What I see is a front office not unlike what the Patriots employ. Its a front office that does have McDaniels as the final say on any personnel matter that doesn't involve cap management or a big enough move to require Bowlen's input, but he's still not nearly as powerful as Shanahan was. We can tell that simply by how much more Bowlen has put himself out there. And we get some definition of Xanders' role in how McDaniels felt obligated to bring him in when an agent would be present in a player/coach meeting.

They all have their roles. McDaniels role is pretty indisputably more powerful than Xanders' as it pertains to player personnel, but that doesn't mean he's even close to Shanahan levels of control or that Xanders is basically an organizational yes man a la Sundquist (who now pretty openly admits that a big reason he was canned was disagreeing with Shanahan on the Jake/Jay situation).


So says Cook and Cutler, but we had comments from Cook that very weekend. He was pretty damn quick with his media blitz and delivering a uniform message. I'd think most can see how suspicious that actually looks.

I just want to make sure you understand that I'm not afraid to elaborate before I just flat out call you an idiot.

Popps
03-19-2009, 11:47 PM
I've not heard Jay say ONCE he doesn't want to be in Denver. .

Let me help.

See, when players request a trade, it's mostly because they don't want to be where they are.

I'm disappointed because I love being a Bronco but I think it's run its course."

Good lord, if you're older than 14... you know exactly what that means.

He ain't beggin' you to ask him back. He wants the **** out.

O.K.? Hope that clears it up.

Again, players that ASK TO BE SENT AWAY FROM YOUR TEAM are telling you that they WANT TO BE SENT AWAY FROM YOUR TEAM.

Popps
03-19-2009, 11:54 PM
Jay Cutler: I hate you.

Omane guy: You love me?

Jay Cutler: No, I want to be as far away from you as possible.

Omane guy: You love me?

Jay Cutler: No, are you listening? **** you and **** everyone on that team. I'm not working out with those losers.

Omane guy: Oh, so you're just missing a workout, but you love me?

Jay Cutler: GOOD GOD, I WANT TO BE TRADED!! Can you ****ing read?? My agent is trying to get me the hell out of this place. I just told you it ran its course. What do I need to do?

Omane guy: So, you love me if I give you more money?

Jay Cutler: Are you for real?


----------

(flash forward hours later.....)

Thread posted 3/20/08
OrangeMane.com
Posted By OMane guy......

JAY CUTLER LOVES US IF WE GIVE HIM MORE MONEY

So, I've been reading Jay's quotes and I think McDouche lied to him and he just wants more money. Then, he'll love us. I figure if we extend his deal and pay him twice what P.Manning is making........bla bla bla blalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaa.............

Taco John
03-20-2009, 12:12 AM
Jay Cutler: I hate you.

Omane guy: You love me?

Jay Cutler: No, I want to be as far away from you as possible.

Omane guy: You love me?

Jay Cutler: No, are you listening? **** you and **** everyone on that team. I'm not working out with those losers.

Omane guy: Oh, so you're just missing a workout, but you love me?

Jay Cutler: GOOD GOD, I WANT TO BE TRADED!! Can you ****ing read?? My agent is trying to get me the hell out of this place. I just told you it ran its course. What do I need to do?

Omane guy: So, you love me if I give you more money?

Jay Cutler: Are you for real?


----------

(flash forward hours later.....)

Thread posted 3/20/08
OrangeMane.com
Posted By OMane guy......

JAY CUTLER LOVES US IF WE GIVE HIM MORE MONEY

So, I've been reading Jay's quotes and I think McDouche lied to him and he just wants more money. Then, he'll love us. I figure if we extend his deal and pay him twice what P.Manning is making........bla bla bla blalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaa.............



You put way too much effort into that...

hambone13
03-20-2009, 12:21 AM
You put way too much effort into that...

Popps thinks the players play for the city these days......maybe he might one day should the city show unity behind him. If I were him, given this situation, I would be shooting for playing QB in Chicago. He WOULD get love there. He's already a fan, he's cocky and he might be the best talent the city has even seen. There would be no fan controversy there. He would truly be a giant in a great city.

Popps
03-20-2009, 01:10 AM
You put way too much effort into that...

But, you enjoyed it... and that's what matters.

Popps
03-20-2009, 01:13 AM
Popps thinks the players play for the city these days......maybe he might one day should the city show unity behind him. If I were him, given this situation, I would be shooting for playing QB in Chicago. He WOULD get love there. He's already a fan, he's cocky and he might be the best talent the city has even seen. There would be no fan controversy there. He would truly be a giant in a great city.

Not really. I believe they play for their contracts, but there's a team-pride for most of these guys. It's human nature.

Cutler holding out and making his teammates the subject of constant stupid questions from the media is going to wear them down. Dumervil apparently almost snapped at someone yesterday, and he's a level-headed guy.

These guys want to play football. They have pride in their jobs. (Most.)

None of them want to be told they are failures because some snotty kid got his feelings hurt and doesn't want to play with them anymore.

hambone13
03-20-2009, 02:13 AM
Not really. I believe they play for their contracts, but there's a team-pride for most of these guys. It's human nature.

Cutler holding out and making his teammates the subject of constant stupid questions from the media is going to wear them down. Dumervil apparently almost snapped at someone yesterday, and he's a level-headed guy.

These guys want to play football. They have pride in their jobs. (Most.)

None of them want to be told they are failures because some snotty kid got his feelings hurt and doesn't want to play with them anymore.

"It's human nature" to play for your contract? Are you serious? I know I'm opening a can of worms here but, "Human Nature"? Human nature is self centered and survivalist. Take a look at the planet O wise observant one......

Even Stink (master of all JC haters in the media country) came out and said Jay had a point and that he understood how he feels. I know he continued with saying, "He should prove him wrong by just playing" but he acknowledged from experience and empathy, that the NFL FOs' lie, w/o regret. That they boldly lie to your face and that is wrong too. I don't think he would have acknowledged that fact unless there was at least a strong possibility that JC had a case.

Popps
03-20-2009, 02:29 AM
"It's human nature" to play for your contract? Are you serious?

Nope.

Didn't say that. Better read the post again, Sparky!

I'll help you...

Not really. I believe they play for their contracts, but there's a team-pride for most of these guys. It's human nature.

So, what I did was... broke it into two parts by making the "but" very large for you. Hopefully, you'll read it again and realize that the "but" represented a shift in subject.

So, I believe they play for contracts.....

That was part one...

then there was the ever important "but" (indicating a subject change) ....

"there's a team pride for most of these guys (THIS IS A CONTINUATION) ... "it's human nature."

So, the "human nature" part was reference to people's natural need to take pride in their team... not the contract, which you misread to be the case.

Hopefully that clears it up.

hambone13
03-20-2009, 03:48 AM
Nope.

Didn't say that. Better read the post again, Sparky!

I'll help you...

Not really. I believe they play for their contracts, but there's a team-pride for most of these guys. It's human nature.

So, what I did was... broke it into two parts by making the "but" very large for you. Hopefully, you'll read it again and realize that the "but" represented a shift in subject.

So, I believe they play for contracts.....

That was part one...

then there was the ever important "but" (indicating a subject change) ....

"there's a team pride for most of these guys (THIS IS A CONTINUATION) ... "it's human nature."

So, the "human nature" part was reference to people's natural need to take pride in their team... not the contract, which you misread to be the case.

Hopefully that clears it up.

Yeah, I didn't like my English teachers any more than I like you. The bottom line is, you can create as much conjecture as you want and it's gospel BUT should anyone else, it's fiction. You can claim that Doom isn't happy with Jay because of your interpretation of an interview that you didn't even listen to and assume he's pissed at JC for screwing up his head, heart and locker room. You can assume that these "team driven football saints" in the Broncos locker room are cheering you on, as you aid in the FO's cover up of a poorly managed situation; a situation that could have been cleared up with some good solid, basic communication.

Alternatively, you could listen to Stink talk about how the FO is probably going to be walking on egg shells with the rest of the locker room because when they decided to address the press, not the local press where the players are but like JC, the national press with comments that are as controversial as JC's in clearing the air. The only difference between the two is that JC came out personally and aired his grievances. Pouty or not, we all know where really stands. We don't really know where the FO stands other than in apparent disarray. The owner can't even "recall" what his comments, thoughts or feelings were based on JC's statements. He won't contest them, directly but he's not sure what he said because, well he's "getting up there in age".

Yeah, I'd want to return his call....and honor his contract. Team pride baby.....it's strong "Esprit de Broncos" all the way.

Drek
03-20-2009, 04:55 AM
I just want to make sure you understand that I'm not afraid to elaborate before I just flat out call you an idiot.

Save yourself the effort because I really don't care. I was responding to Buff, a poster on here who's opinions are actually worth reading.

fontaine
03-20-2009, 05:35 AM
Not really. I believe they play for their contracts, but there's a team-pride for most of these guys. It's human nature.

Cutler holding out and making his teammates the subject of constant stupid questions from the media is going to wear them down. Dumervil apparently almost snapped at someone yesterday, and he's a level-headed guy.

These guys want to play football. They have pride in their jobs. (Most.)

None of them want to be told they are failures because some snotty kid got his feelings hurt and doesn't want to play with them anymore.

Takes just don't come any worse than this.

This kid played through undiagnosed Diabetes for a season where he lost 20lbs of muscle and weight, could barely get himself out of bed in the mornings while he carried the team on his back.

But never mind all of that, he's just a snotty kid that doesn't want to play with his team mates.

Even you don't believe the nonsense you're spewing here.

TonyR
03-20-2009, 05:49 AM
I'm going to post this again in case anyone missed it.


We all do things we regret. We tell the wife that, yeah, since you asked, you really don't look good in that dress. We order a fourth bowl of chili. We keep taking Vince Young in the first round of our fantasy drafts.

But what if we could get a do-over, a life-moment mulligan?

Jay Cutler, you're first on the mulligan tee box

The latest : Cutler demands a trade from the Denver Broncos, says he's been betrayed by new coach Josh McDaniels after the team discussed a possible trade to acquire Matt Cassel, says management isn't giving him the proper amount of love.

"Before this trade for Cassel thing ever came up, in the two weeks or so I had spent with McDaniels, he was basically telling me that he came to Denver because he wanted to coach me and that we needed to trust each other," Cutler told ESPN's Chris Mortensen. "He's never been critical to me. But trust now? How can I trust him now?"

Do-over: "I'm going on my fourth season in this league, so I understand the realities of the situation. We have a new coach, a new general manager and an owner who wants to give them the latitude to do their jobs. My job is to play quarterback. Their job is to do what they think best helps the team.

"Sure, I was disappointed to be involved in trade discussions. Who wouldn't be? But I took the non-trade too personally and overreacted. In retrospect, I can see why Coach McDaniels was interested in Cassel. They have a great history together. But it didn't happen, so Coach and I will patch up our differences and move forward. That's what a pro does."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=3988250&sportCat=nfl

colonelbeef
03-20-2009, 08:33 AM
Takes just don't come any worse than this.

This kid played through undiagnosed Diabetes for a season where he lost 20lbs of muscle and weight, could barely get himself out of bed in the mornings while he carried the team on his back.

But never mind all of that, he's just a snotty kid that doesn't want to play with his team mates.

Even you don't believe the nonsense you're spewing here.

Good post. Some of these people are so completely lost and unwilling to see the truth of the matter that they are liable to completely disregard all factual evidence to the contrary so long as it fits their view of what is going on

Circle Orange
03-20-2009, 08:43 AM
Woody, please go home and stuff your face with more Twinkies. No one's destroyed, and the realm still stands.

Punisher
03-20-2009, 08:51 AM
Trade Cutler=Epic Fail

colonelbeef
03-20-2009, 09:20 AM
Trade Cutler=Epic Fall

this

Cito Pelon
03-20-2009, 09:33 AM
To say trading Cutler is a big deal, first one has to think he'll end up with a superduper career. I don't buy into the idea that he'll have a super career. He has the potential, but I don't think he'll ever live up to it.

Broncos4tw
03-20-2009, 11:23 AM
PRIOR to this fiasco, Jay has NEVER SAID he wanted to leave the team. What are you folks trying to prove? You embellish crap to the point of laughability.

People act as if he hates the town, hates the fans, hates the players, and his desire to move on is because of that. Instead of the reality that he DOES want to play for the Broncos, but clearly, the COACH doesn't give a crap if he does or not, even though we will probably utter rubbish without him.

I still am amazed people think it's 'ok' for the coach to lie to the members of his team, because it's a 'business,' but it's NOT ok for Jay to be PO'd about it.

Getting rid of Jay would be stupidity for this team, that's the bottom line. Right now, the coach should be doing everything within his power to mend it and get him back in. It doesn't seem like he is doing anything. I'd say he is too 'proud' to do so. And it's going to doom the team to years of mediocrity.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-20-2009, 11:42 AM
PRIOR to this fiasco, Jay has NEVER SAID he wanted to leave the team. What are you folks trying to prove? You embellish crap to the point of laughability.

People act as if he hates the town, hates the fans, hates the players, and his desire to move on is because of that. Instead of the reality that he DOES want to play for the Broncos, but clearly, the COACH doesn't give a crap if he does or not, even though we will probably utter rubbish without him.

I still am amazed people think it's 'ok' for the coach to lie to the members of his team, because it's a 'business,' but it's NOT ok for Jay to be PO'd about it.

Getting rid of Jay would be stupidity for this team, that's the bottom line. Right now, the coach should be doing everything within his power to mend it and get him back in. It doesn't seem like he is doing anything. I'd say he is too 'proud' to do so. And it's going to doom the team to years of mediocrity.

You. Are. Retarded.

Seriously. Get your head examined.

For those of you who actually have a brain in your head: how much more clear can Josh McDaniels be? WE ARE NOT TRADING JAY CUTLER. Belichick came out in Boston yesterday and said, basically, the Denver scenario was utter bull****. McDaniels, the front office, and Bowlen have all said they want Jay Cutler back.

So where do you get a retarded statement like "but clearly, the COACH doesn't give a crap if he does or not, even though we will probably utter rubbish without him."?

Broncos4tw
03-20-2009, 11:56 AM
Sorry, I don't play the personal attack game, please grow up dude.

Has the coach flown out to see Jay? Have the made any sort of apology? Have they tried to restructure the contract to give him assurances? Has he done a damn thing other than say "Oh, we want him?" Offering lip service isn't going to get Jay back.

And the only thing I got out of the Belichick bit was that the Broncos did ask for him, but they already took a deal, because they didn't want a trade mess to deal with, they took the most lucrative deal they could at the time. McD did pursue Cassel, he has said so.

We are not trading Jay? If he holds out, what are we going to do then? Oh, yea.. play Simms. Yea, you are right, we are golden, I expect a SB trip next year for sure!

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-20-2009, 12:03 PM
Sorry, I don't play the personal attack game, please grow up dude.

Has the coach flown out to see Jay? Have the made any sort of apology? Have they tried to restructure the contract to give him assurances? Has he done a damn thing other than say "Oh, we want him?" Offering lip service isn't going to get Jay back.

And the only thing I got out of the Belichick bit was that the Broncos did ask for him, but they already took a deal, because they didn't want a trade mess to deal with, they took the most lucrative deal they could at the time. McD did pursue Cassel, he has said so.

We are not trading Jay? If he holds out, what are we going to do then? Oh, yea.. play Simms. Yea, you are right, we are golden, I expect a SB trip next year for sure!

Were you really expecting a Super Bowl trip next year with Cutler? You should get your head examined. Soon. That's not an insult. I'm very worried about your mental well being.

Do you know they haven't offered an apology? No you do not. Do you know they haven't offered him a restructured contract? no you do not. They haven't flown to Nashville to find him because THEY DON'T WORK FOR CUTLER -- HE WORKS FOR THEM. See the difference there?

They probably think it's retarded to restructure his deal with three years left on it... because it is retarded.

And Belichick traded Cassel on the first day of Free Agency. You're claiming that he wouldn't have held out for even a day if he thought he could get a better deal. See how stupid that is? The claims of "Denver was going to send the #12 AND Cutler and get Cassel" are as preposterous as they are untrue. Belichick would have taken that deal in a heartbeat (if it had actually happened), and if he thought there was even a snowball's chance in hell of getting a better pick than #34, he would have held out 24 hours to make that happen.

Yes, McD "pursued" Cassel. Yet, when Belichick called him 24-48 hours before the Cassel to KC deal happened, he learned that the team "was not interested in the player." DURRRRRR. How much clearer can you be?

Telling teams that call that Cutler is not on the block?

Telling the media (Cutler's favorite way to communicate) that he's not being traded?

It's not lip service. Turning down trade offers is more than just talk. That's an ACTION. You'd do well to learn the difference.

fontaine
03-20-2009, 06:58 PM
PRIOR to this fiasco, Jay has NEVER SAID he wanted to leave the team. What are you folks trying to prove? You embellish crap to the point of laughability.

People act as if he hates the town, hates the fans, hates the players, and his desire to move on is because of that. Instead of the reality that he DOES want to play for the Broncos, but clearly, the COACH doesn't give a crap if he does or not, even though we will probably utter rubbish without him.

I still am amazed people think it's 'ok' for the coach to lie to the members of his team, because it's a 'business,' but it's NOT ok for Jay to be PO'd about it.

Getting rid of Jay would be stupidity for this team, that's the bottom line. Right now, the coach should be doing everything within his power to mend it and get him back in. It doesn't seem like he is doing anything. I'd say he is too 'proud' to do so. And it's going to doom the team to years of mediocrity.

I just see that if a new HC shows interest in trading for a star player and it doesn't work out "because they got late to the party" then you can't really blame the player then for doing the same thing and asking to be traded after he's met the HC and doesn't like the situation he's in.

Beyond all of that, McDaniels was hired here to improve the defense and not set a pretty good offense back, and as such I expect him to do his best to make sure we get the best QB and right now that guy is Cutler. I can't stress that enough. McDaniels could be here for a decade and not find that franchise QB. I don't want this franchise to go stumbling from one season to another with stop gap QBs that can only take you so far.

Jay has already said he's going to report to all mandatory camps and McDaniels has said now Jay is not available for trades.

That's the first step. Get the damn situation resolved and move on to doing what you were hired here for which is to fix that defense.

Circle Orange
03-20-2009, 07:10 PM
Well heck, why don't WE all just bail and go? Then Jay can stay. Works for me! :giggle:

You gotta love 1,000 threads with fifty words of information.

Popps
03-20-2009, 10:01 PM
Takes just don't come any worse than this.

This kid played through undiagnosed Diabetes for a season where he lost 20lbs of muscle and weight, could barely get himself out of bed in the mornings while he carried the team on his back..

That's nice. My post was in response to what is going on now. Not what he did in 07.

The point was that the guys in the locker room are going to get tired of answering questions about a guy who doesn't want to play with them. They're going to get tired of people assuming they'll be failures without Jay Cutler.

That's what the post was about. Not some bull**** about his beetus in 07.

Get current, dude.

Broncos4tw
03-21-2009, 09:58 AM
They probably think it's retarded to restructure his deal with three years left on it... because it is retarded.

Right, because franchise QBs who are slated to make less than their backup, who are going to be a solid force in the NFL should NEVER have their contracts renegotiated. lol

It happens ALL THE TIME. The assumed blue chip players get their initial contracts, and if they turn out to be as solid as everyone thought they were, they VERY often get restructured contracts. Why wouldn't a team do that? Would you rather lose your players at 4 years because you were hard-headed and refused to restructure, or would you like to keep them beyond the termination of their first contract?

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard.

TonyR
03-21-2009, 10:24 AM
...franchise QBs who are slated to make less than their backup...

This talking point is way overplayed here. You don't look at how much Jay is making "this year", you look at the whole contract. If I have the numbers correct, $48 million over 6 years, the contract averages $8 million per year. That's more than Simms will get in 2 years.

Drek
03-21-2009, 12:01 PM
This talking point is way overplayed here. You don't look at how much Jay is making "this year", you look at the whole contract. If I have the numbers correct, $48 million over 6 years, the contract averages $8 million per year. That's more than Simms will get in 2 years.

Pretty much.

And if Cutler had another good season I'm sure the new regime would've been calling him about an big fat extension, but with three damn years left doesn't that seem like jumping the gun just a bit? Two years ok, worth considering. One year? Great, lets sit down and get something worked out. But three years of control and now people think the FO should be looking to extend him? That is ****ing crazy.