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rugbythug
03-18-2009, 11:18 AM
Call Bubby Brister He never got his due. Totally dumped on the eve of the regular season. For some dink named brian griese.

As to the whole Franchise QB's and we are setting ourselves back 10 years hoopla.

Shanahan was a Coach for 14 years. During that time 4 Quarter Backs went to the Pro-Bowl

John Elway
Brian Griese
Jake Plummer
Jay Cutler

If the system is sound -and by far Shanahan's was. As is McDaniels. It will produce the results. System>Players.

UberBroncoMan
03-18-2009, 11:23 AM
He never got his due. Totally dumped on the eve of the regular season. For some dink named brian griese.

As to the whole Franchise QB's and we are setting ourselves back 10 years hoopla.

Shanahan was a Coach for 14 years. During that time 4 Quarter Backs went to the Pro-Bowl

John Elway
Brian Griese
Jake Plummer
Jay Cutler

If the system is sound -and by far Shanahan's was. As is McDaniels. It will produce the results. System>Players.

There's one difference though. Elway and Cutler had the physical essentials to excel in the system. Griese and Plummer merely managed it and didn't have the talent to take the team to the next level on offense.

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 11:25 AM
Cutler has not proven he has what it takes between the ears.

mr007
03-18-2009, 11:51 AM
You're right..... he is replaceable. With these Quarterbacks:

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees

Rohirrim
03-18-2009, 11:53 AM
You're right..... he is replaceable. With these Quarterbacks:

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees

Jay? Is that you?

lostknight
03-18-2009, 11:55 AM
McDaniels system is unknown. All we have is a wannabe head coach wrapping himself up in Belichick's hoodie. Until he actually executes, we don't know if it was Belichick or Hoddie Jr. that made it work.

But given that the real QB of the patriots in named Brady and has been there long before McDaniels, I know which way I think it will go.

DrFate
03-18-2009, 11:58 AM
System>Players.

That's just silly. If it was all about the system, every team in the league would be vying for the playoffs every year. Players win games. Coaches merely put them in a position to succeed.

vancejohnson82
03-18-2009, 11:58 AM
You're right..... he is replaceable. With these Quarterbacks:

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees

Are you carving out Cutler's HOF shrine yet...

vancejohnson82
03-18-2009, 11:59 AM
That's just silly. If it was all about the system, every team in the league would be vying for the playoffs every year. Players win games. Coaches merely put them in a position to succeed.

so then you are saying that Cassel was the reason the Pats won 11 games last year??

lostknight
03-18-2009, 12:00 PM
so then you are saying that Cassel was the reason the Pats won 11 games last year??

No, Moss, Welker and yes, Cassel were the reason the Pats won 11 games last year.

mr007
03-18-2009, 12:01 PM
Jay? Is that you?

Yes it is and I want to say that McD and I have just been ****ing with everyone. We have been getting along from the very beginning and just wanted to see how people would flip out with a little controversy. We're getting wasted right now and have some hookers headed up to our room for a little tag team. Next year when you see me high-5in on the sidelines and winkin' it's going to be for reminiscing as well as the badass play that just occurred.

vancejohnson82
03-18-2009, 12:03 PM
No, Moss, Welker and yes, Cassel were the reason the Pats won 11 games last year.

but not the system right?? it was just these three players drawing up plays in the dirt??

cmon...you HAVE to give McDaniels some credit

DrFate
03-18-2009, 12:06 PM
so then you are saying that Cassel was the reason the Pats won 11 games last year??

Thanks for trying to oversimplify

That organization drafts well, trades well, and has good players on both sides of the ball. They have a solid scouting department and typically rob other teams when it comes to draft day deals.

Cassel gets credit for having a nice season. Moss and Welker don't hurt. Having a top 10 defense didn't hurt.

lostknight
03-18-2009, 12:06 PM
but not the system right?? it was just these three players drawing up plays in the dirt??

cmon...you HAVE to give McDaniels some credit

Sure. He was a effective OC the previous two seasons. But he didn't make the personnel decisions, wasn't the HC, certainly wasn't the GM, like he is now with Denver, and did not design the offense that he ran.

McDaniels has a lot to prove. When he does, I will give him the same respect I gave Shanny. Until he does, I stick with talent that has proven out - like Cutler, and Bobby Turner rather then salivate at becoming the Patriots east.

worm
03-18-2009, 12:08 PM
Comparing Cutler to Bubby is as insane as comparing him to Brady.

DrFate
03-18-2009, 12:09 PM
but not the system right?? it was just these three players drawing up plays in the dirt??

cmon...you HAVE to give McDaniels some credit

I'm sure you, me, and the kid playing stickball next to the stadium could take 'the system' and win 11 games, right?

I give McDaniels the credit any other offensive coordinator would get. They put up good numbers with a backup QB and made the most of a bad situation.

DrFate
03-18-2009, 12:11 PM
But he didn't make the personnel decisions, wasn't the HC, certainly wasn't the GM, like he is now with Denver, and did not design the offense that he ran.

Has anyone ever really found out what 'power' this guy does have? Shanny was fired because he had 'all the power' and missed the playoffs. We have a GM now. How much input does McDaniels really have?

2KBack
03-18-2009, 12:12 PM
But given that the real QB of the patriots in named Brady and has been there long before McDaniels, I know which way I think it will go.
Mcdaniels was there in 2001, Brady in 2000. Not so long. He wasn't the OC then, but I'm sure he was familiar with everybody.

vancejohnson82
03-18-2009, 12:13 PM
I'm sure you, me, and the kid playing stickball next to the stadium could take 'the system' and win 11 games, right?

I give McDaniels the credit any other offensive coordinator would get. They put up good numbers with a backup QB and made the most of a bad situation.

ok...that's fair enough

but you go on adn applaud NE for great decisions, that McDaniels was obviously around, and maybe he's bringing that here

and maybe Cutler isnt the type of guy that fits into that type of an organization...

so I'll take the Pats record and their way of doing things if it wins without Cutler

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 12:14 PM
That's just silly. If it was all about the system, every team in the league would be vying for the playoffs every year. Players win games. Coaches merely put them in a position to succeed.

Really so systems don't matter.

So Pittsburgh is going down when Harrison leaves.
The Broncos will never be able to Lead the League in Rushing with out TD
So forth and so on.

You seem to think all systems are equal. That is not true. The best way to get better is to get rid of a flawed system and then get the players you need to run it. When you get the Great Players and Put them in the Right system then you get championships.

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 12:17 PM
Comparing Cutler to Bubby is as insane as comparing him to Brady.

Who compared cutler to Bubby?

Popps
03-18-2009, 12:19 PM
Jay? Is that you?

Hilarious!

lostknight
03-18-2009, 12:19 PM
Has anyone ever really found out what 'power' this guy does have? Shanny was fired because he had 'all the power' and missed the playoffs. We have a GM now. How much input does McDaniels really have?

Given that he threw a hissy fit when Bus Cook talked to Xanders instead of him, a big freaken amount.

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 12:20 PM
Sure. He was a effective OC the previous two seasons. But he didn't make the personnel decisions, wasn't the HC, certainly wasn't the GM, like he is now with Denver, and did not design the offense that he ran.

McDaniels has a lot to prove. When he does, I will give him the same respect I gave Shanny. Until he does, I stick with talent that has proven out - like Cutler, and Bobby Turner rather then salivate at becoming the Patriots east.

None of his moves have been even questionable as of yet. Your panties are all in a bind about a move that didn't even occur. Your mad about the way Cutler has reacted to a situation that did not even happen.

bronco militia
03-18-2009, 12:20 PM
Jay? Is that you?

Ha! Ha! Ha!

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Given that he threw a hissy fit when Bus Cook talked to Xanders instead of him, a big freaken amount.

Way to get lost in all the big words on the internet. McD was waiting for a call from Cutler and Bus called xanders instead.

lostknight
03-18-2009, 12:25 PM
Mcdaniels was there in 2001, Brady in 2000. Not so long. He wasn't the OC then, but I'm sure he was familiar with everybody.

That's like saying because I volunteered in Nancy Pelosi's re-election campaign, Barak Obama's election was my success.

Different OC, different QB Coach, Different Head coach. He didn't become QB coach even until 2004. By that point the system was well built out. 1000 monkeys and all that if you want to take a uncharitable view. If you want to take a more charitable view, you can say he succedded by copying off the teacher. The exact same thing he is trying to do here.

In fact, I think that makes perfect sense for McDaniel's actions. He is still acting like a OC - trying to emulate the system he knows works for New England and their personell - rather then as a HC - where he has to adapt his system to the talent that he has.

Hence stupidity like getting rid of Leech and replacing him with someone far more expensive, despite the fact that Leech got the job done. Or this stupid trade, which would have been okay if we had a decent GM who knew how to control the situation and when to take a loss in the media rather then lie and embitter your QB.

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 12:32 PM
That's like saying because I volunteered in Nancy Pelosi's re-election campaign, Barak Obama's election was my success.

Different OC, different QB Coach, Different Head coach. He didn't become QB coach even until 2004. By that point the system was well built out. 1000 monkeys and all that if you want to take a uncharitable view. If you want to take a more charitable view, you can say he succedded by copying off the teacher. The exact same thing he is trying to do here.

In fact, I think that makes perfect sense for McDaniel's actions. He is still acting like a OC - trying to emulate the system he knows works for New England and their personell - rather then as a HC - where he has to adapt his system to the talent that he has.

Hence stupidity like getting rid of Leech and replacing him with someone far more expensive, despite the fact that Leech got the job done. Or this stupid trade, which would have been okay if we had a decent GM who knew how to control the situation and when to take a loss in the media rather then lie and embitter your QB.

Your Right McDaniels did not invent Football. He is Copying. Of Course every HC is copying. Shanahans was built off of Walsh. McDaniels is taking a system that he used to a high degree of success and trying to implement it here. This is the NFL not college or HS. In the NFL you get players for your system. You don't try and change your system for the players you have. That is a recipe for failure. That is a Bob Slowick.

DHallblows
03-18-2009, 12:38 PM
You're right..... he is replaceable. With these Quarterbacks:

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees

I'm sorry folks, I must be missing something...Who else is on this list?!??? Maybe 2 or 3 other guys? None of which we'll be trading for...

DrFate
03-18-2009, 12:39 PM
ok...that's fair enough

but you go on adn applaud NE for great decisions, that McDaniels was obviously around, and maybe he's bringing that here

and maybe Cutler isnt the type of guy that fits into that type of an organization...

so I'll take the Pats record and their way of doing things if it wins without Cutler

1) Based on all the bullying we see from Bellicheat, especially after his minions move on - I can't say that McDaniels was front/center on those selections. (I can't say he wasn't but it would seem to run counter to the attitude). His other disciples have had very little success, so I'm not sure what there is to base any expectation of greatness.

2) I don't remember seeing anyone question Cutler's ability to succeed before this went down

3) I still wonder if Bowlen knew this was coming when he hired McDaniels

lostknight
03-18-2009, 12:45 PM
Your Right McDaniels did not invent Football. He is Copying. Of Course every HC is copying. Shanahans was built off of Walsh. McDaniels is taking a system that he used to a high degree of success and trying to implement it here. This is the NFL not college or HS. In the NFL you get players for your system. You don't try and change your system for the players you have. That is a recipe for failure. That is a Bob Slowick.

Right. So when Mike Shanahan voided two of the rules of West Coast - Pass then run, and short slants in favor of zone blocking runs on first and long bombs down the field, that was due to his system, not due to the fact that he inherited Elway and got Terell Davis and a plethora of phenomenal running backs?

You adapt your system to your players. Otherwise the system don't work. That was Slowik's mistake. He tried 3-4 without the personal to pull it off.

lostknight
03-18-2009, 12:51 PM
1) Based on all the bullying we see from Bellicheat, especially after his minions move on - I can't say that McDaniels was front/center on those selections. (I can't say he wasn't but it would seem to run counter to the attitude). His other disciples have had very little success, so I'm not sure what there is to base any expectation of greatness.

2) I don't remember seeing anyone question Cutler's ability to succeed before this went down

3) I still wonder if Bowlen knew this was coming when he hired McDaniels

1) Given Belichick's minions lack of success in the NFL, I expect little from McDaniels. My goal as a fan is to limit the damage he can do until he either proves himself, in which case we take off the training wheels or until he cakes and Jeremy Bates takes over. That job should be done by a GM, but since McDaniels got the competent GM's fired, no one is doing it.

2) Some did. They drafted Vince Young and Leinart. They wear obsessive amounts of hair gel on ESPN. None of them play in the NFL.

3) I suspect more and more that he did know, or authorize this. McDaniels is making decisions that we would have crucified God on High (aka Shanahan) for. That means he feels like he had the owners backing into making this decision.

I suspect that this was part of McDaniels's plan all around. Probably part of the reason he impressed Bowlen. Bowlen wants John Elway, not Jay Cutler with the finicky attitude. Trading for Cassel and draft picks and a reliable person at the podium probably that fits better as a denver sports icon would appeal.

Again, my problem is not so much that there was a trade considered, it was that they were so inept as to think they could cut the player, and the player's agent out of the deal, sneak one over Bill Belicheck and steal Cassel out from under Scott Pioli.

Or maybe they didn't think about it at all, and just expected everything to drop into their lap.

But they find themselves in a no-win situation with the one asset this team actually has.

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 12:54 PM
Right. So when Mike Shanahan voided two of the rules of West Coast - Pass then run, and short slants in favor of zone blocking runs on first and long bombs down the field, that was due to his system, not due to the fact that he inherited Elway and got Terell Davis and a plethora of phenomenal running backs?

You adapt your system to your players. Otherwise the system don't work. That was Slowik's mistake. He tried 3-4 without the personal to pull it off.

So after TD. Did the Running System Change at all?

As I Remember Rod Smith Caught about 60 slants a year.

There is no doubt Shanahan had his own thoughts on offense and implemented it. He did however build on the back of what was before him.

Blart
03-18-2009, 12:55 PM
Anyone is replaceable...

if you have a replacement.

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 01:02 PM
1) Given Belichick's minions lack of success in the NFL, I expect little from McDaniels. My goal as a fan is to limit the damage he can do until he either proves himself, in which case we take off the training wheels or until he cakes and Jeremy Bates takes over. That job should be done by a GM, but since McDaniels got the competent GM's fired, no one is doing it.
McD got nobody fired that was a Bowlen decision. As far as the latest word was. The Goodmen Son was a Walking Hard on. But that is what happens when you hire family everything gets twisted up together.

2) Some did. They drafted Vince Young and Leinart. They wear obsessive amounts of hair gel on ESPN. None of them play in the NFL.

Not even McD doubts Cutler's ability to play in the System. He also knew Cassell could and could get Cassell + Defensive help for Cutelr

3) I suspect more and more that he did know, or authorize this. McDaniels is making decisions that we would have crucified God on High (aka Shanahan) for. That means he feels like he had the owners backing into making this decision.

As Per Krieger Bowlen went Apoplectic when Cutler would not return his phone calls. If Cutler is a spoiled, prick as some Postulate Bowlen may not want him on the team. Doesn't mean he can't play football though

I suspect that this was part of McDaniels's plan all around. Probably part of the reason he impressed Bowlen. Bowlen wants John Elway, not Jay Cutler with the finicky attitude. Trading for Cassel and draft picks and a reliable person at the podium probably that fits better as a denver sports icon would appeal.

Again, my problem is not so much that there was a trade considered, it was that they were so inept as to think they could cut the player, and the player's agent out of the deal, sneak one over Bill Belicheck and steal Cassel out from under Scott Pioli.

Who knows what they were trying to do. But I don't anyone would have expected the blow up they got from Jay. I wouldn't, remember when they did trade Al Wilson? Nary a wimper

Or maybe they didn't think about it at all, and just expected everything to drop into their lap.

But they find themselves in a no-win situation with the one asset this team actually has.

This team has a lot of good offensive assets. That is why Cutler should stay. There are better Recievers and Line Play here than anywhere else in the League. If Cutler plays for the Lines make sure he is not your fantasy QB. Remember what he looked like when he was getting hit. He got very average very quickly

Pony Boy
03-18-2009, 01:02 PM
Hilarious! Jay? Is that you?

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Anyone is replaceable...

if you have a replacement.

Nice Who said it originally I remember reading it but can't place it.

worm
03-18-2009, 01:04 PM
Nice Who said it originally I remember reading it but can't place it.

Walsh, maybe?

maher_tyler
03-18-2009, 01:07 PM
Nice Who said it originally I remember reading it but can't place it.

Al Davis...read it in an article someone just posted on here today i think...

Blart
03-18-2009, 01:16 PM
I didn't credit Al Davis because his name kind of ruins the quote

BroncoMan4ever
03-18-2009, 01:22 PM
Call Bubby Brister He never got his due. Totally dumped on the eve of the regular season. For some dink named brian griese.

As to the whole Franchise QB's and we are setting ourselves back 10 years hoopla.

Shanahan was a Coach for 14 years. During that time 4 Quarter Backs went to the Pro-Bowl

John Elway
Brian Griese
Jake Plummer
Jay Cutler

If the system is sound -and by far Shanahan's was. As is McDaniels. It will produce the results. System>Players.


there is a difference between the Shanahan and McDaniels system philosophy though.
Mike altered his system to fit each QBs strengths and put his players in the best situation to succeed and get the pro bowl notice.

with John it was agressive with a lot of down field passing and Elway was in charge, with Griese it became about shorter high percentage passes in more of a true West Coast offense, with Jake it was all about getting Jake outside the pocket, and with Jay it was coming back to the Elway style of being agressive and wide open.

with McDaniels he is about his system, he doesn't have the ability or know-how to alter his system to fit his QB. he doesn't seem to know how to use a QB with different skills than those he has worked with in NE.

colonelbeef
03-18-2009, 01:23 PM
Comparing Cutler to Bubby is as insane as comparing him to Brady.

Elway would have been hard pressed to go 8-8 with that defense last year. Brady has never gone out and won a game by himself. the one time the Pats asked him to do so was in the superbowl, and he got his ass kicked in by the Giants

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 01:25 PM
there is a difference between the Shanahan and McDaniels system philosophy though.
Mike altered his system to fit each QBs strengths. with John it was agressive with a lot of down field passing and Elway was in charge, with Griese it became about shorter high percentage passes in more of a true West Coast offense, with Jake it was all about getting Jake outside the pocket, and with Jay it was coming back to the Elway style of being agressive and wide open.

with McDaniels he is about his system, he doesn't have the ability or know-how to alter his system to fit his QB. he doesn't seem to know how to use a QB with different skills than those he has worked with in NE.

Well since he has not even had a practice yet I will hold my judgement about how will or won't adapt his system

BroncoMan4ever
03-18-2009, 01:28 PM
Well since he has not even had a practice yet I will hold my judgement about how will or won't adapt his system

that's the point though, his offseason moves have shown that he is more interested in fitting his system as opposed to altering it to fit his QB

the fact he brought in Simms who is similar in skill set to what he had in NE, and that he was also giving serious thought to acquiring Cassel and tossing aside Jay, leads to the belief that he would prefer have a certain type of QB who fits his scheme as opposed to a QB with more skills and much more talent than those who he has worked with.

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 01:28 PM
Elway would have been hard pressed to go 8-8 with that defense last year. Brady has never gone out and won a game by himself. the one time the Pats asked him to do so was in the superbowl, and he got his ass kicked in by the Giants

Yeah Brady has never led his team back for a Game Winning Field Goal Twice in the super bowl.

Jay is not the entire offense. The Line is Great and so are the Recievers. Yes the offense had to pick up slack but that is the whole offense not just Jay.

rugbythug
03-18-2009, 01:30 PM
well considering the fact he brought in Simms who is similar in skill set to what he had in NE, and that he was also giving serious thought to acquiring Cassel and tossing aside Jay, leads to the belief that he would prefer have a certain type of QB who fits his scheme as opposed to a QB with more skills and much more talent than those who he has worked with.

Wow Jay Just got better than Brady. Impressive and he did not even have to win a SB. And it would have been Cassell plus picks. Which would have made the TEAM better.

BroncoMan4ever
03-18-2009, 01:41 PM
Wow Jay Just got better than Brady. Impressive and he did not even have to win a SB. And it would have been Cassell plus picks. Which would have made the TEAM better.

i am not saying Jay is better than Brady. more pysically and athletically gifted....YES

i am simply saying that with McDaniels his system is what makes marginally talented QB's look better than they are and he has no interest or ability in changing up that system to fit a QB with a different skill set.

i hate Brady's guts and think he isn't nearly as good as he is made out to be, and that he is this generations Joe Montana, a marginally talented guy in a very lucky situation with his team, but as of now with the rings, experience and wins he is better than Jay

Pick Six
03-18-2009, 02:00 PM
with McDaniels he is about his system, he doesn't have the ability or know-how to alter his system to fit his QB. he doesn't seem to know how to use a QB with different skills than those he has worked with in NE.

Even if that is an accurate assessment, I say "so what?" Bowlen hired McDaniels to win games. If he has to gut the team and coach HIS players, it's his right...until proven otherwise...