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Popps
03-16-2009, 11:25 PM
Start your engines...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/11510371

So now Jay Cutler is mad as hell and sure looks like he's not going to take it in Denver anymore. Great. Almost makes you wish the Broncos never disposed of Jake Plummer, huh?

Well, it does me. If ever there was a quarterback done wrong it was poor Jake. He didn't throw the tightest spiral. He took too many chances. And he threw unnecessary interceptions. He was booed at home, booed on the road and shredded weekly by the hometown media for his flaws. In short, he was embraced like the Avian flu.


So what's to like? This: He was 40-18 as a starter. All the guy did was win.

He took the Broncos to the playoffs in 2003. He did it again in 2004. He had them in the 2005 AFC Championship Game. Yet he was gone two seasons later, shuffled off to Tampa Bay to make way for Cutler, the second coming of John Elway. Only, he's not. He's not even the second coming of Jake Plummer, and, no, I don't care that he throws a fast ball like Randy Johnson or that his right arm can launch space shuttles.

I want someone who can win, and Jay Cutler is 17-20 as a starter, failing to reach the playoffs in his NFL career. Plummer not only got there three of his four seasons in Denver, he took the Cardinals to the playoffs in 1998, their first appearance in a non-strike year in over two decades.

Denver never had a losing season under Plummer. It hasn't had a winning season under Cutler. Draw your own conclusions. I have, and they go something like this: Plummer knew how to win; Cutler knows how to throw a pretty pass. I know which I'd rather have.

When the Broncos drafted Cutler they were coming off a 13-3 season where they beat New England and were one win from the Super Bowl. But after losing to Pittsburgh in the conference championship game, coach Mike Shanahan decided he could go no deeper into the playoffs with Plummer. So he traded up for Cutler.

For Plummer, the message was clear: His get-out-of-Denver ticket had just been punched, and Cutler would succeed him in no more than a year. Anything short of the Super Bowl wouldn't matter for Plummer, who could take his 40-18 record somewhere else and watch what could have been.


Cutler and Plummer, side by side in 2006, have had far different results. (US Presswire) Plummer didn't sulk. He didn't demand to be traded. He didn't threaten to move. And he never asked to meet with his head coach or demand an explanation.

"Jay is going to be a hell of a player," Plummer told me that summer, "but, hopefully, when his time is right. Until that time I'm going to be the one taking the snaps.

"Fans always like change. I understand that. It's almost like having an old girlfriend. You always think the pasture may be greener on the other side. But until Jay is ready they're going to have to deal with me."

Now that's what I want to hear from my quarterback. Don't tell me your feelings are hurt. Don't go running to your realtor. And don't mention the name Matt Cassel because if you're more concerned about what is beyond your control -- and, contrary to what he might think, Jay Cutler is not running this show -- you're doomed as a quarterback.

Of course, Jay Cutler is not doomed. He has a long career ahead of him, and he has a world of talent. What he doesn't have is the guts of Jake Plummer, and too bad. He could learn something from his predecessor. In fact, the more I hear Cutler whine the more I'm convinced Denver owes Plummer an apology.

He didn't score many style points while he was there; he just won. For some reason, that wasn't enough. So he was sliced, diced and spliced by his critics. Cutler, on the other hand, is cut a break ... and for what? He took over his rookie season when the Broncos were 7-4 and lost three of five starts. No problem there. Rookie quarterbacks struggle. But then he was 7-9 in his second season and 8-8 in his third. Worse, the Broncos positively self-destructed last year, blowing a three-game lead with three weeks to go.

Yeah, I know, it wasn't Cutler's fault. It might have helped if Denver had a running back who could stay in the lineup for three weeks or a defense that didn't leak like the Titanic. But all the Broncos had to do was win one freakin' game in three tries, and they couldn't pull it off. Blame the defense all you want, but look what Cutler did down the stretch: Nothing.

In his last three games he had two touchdown passes and four interceptions. Worse, he lost to Buffalo at home on the next to last weekend of the season. I don't want to hear how he threw for 359 yards or 316 the next weekend against San Diego. He didn't win. Period. End of story.


Jay Cutler has the tangibles, but ... (Getty Images) So his defense stunk. Kurt Warner's defense in Arizona wasn't all that great, either. And the Cardinals' running game was worse than Denver's. In fact, it was worse than everyone. But Arizona pulled the mother of all upsets by winning the NFC and coming within 45 seconds of knocking off Pittsburgh in Super Bowl XLIII. Warner overcame the club's shortcomings because that is what good quarterbacks are supposed to do.

Cutler is acknowledged as one of the game's top young quarterbacks, yet he can't overcome much of anything. And that is a problem. He can complain about Philip Rivers, but I know which one I'd trust in the clutch -- and it's not Cutler. He can complain about his new head coach, too, but this just in, Jay: Josh McDaniels didn't draft you; Mike Shanahan did. And while I don't agree with how this was handled -- or mishandled -- it is a reminder to Cutler to wake up and realize the NFL is a business.

It is also evidence that Cutler might not be the quarterback we thought he was. So he lives in the shadow of Elway. Big deal. So did Jake Plummer. In fact, Plummer was closer to the Elway era than Cutler, so the contrasts were more apparent. He didn't throw like Elway, but he did find a way to win -- and isn't that how we measure our quarterbacks?

When, at last, Plummer was dismissed by the Broncos, he didn't cry or rant about the decision. He simply retired, exiled by a team and a city that didn't appreciate him.

Cutler was supposed to be an improvement on Plummer, but while he has the measureables -- the size, the big arm, the accuracy -- he's as short on the intangibles as he is on victories. The guy needs to toughen up and drop his woe-is-me mantra. If he can't get over what happened here, how does he demonstrate to teammates that he is resilient; that he is someone they can trust when their world is crumbling? And how does he prove he can shut out everything around him on the field when he can shut nothing out now? More to the point, how does he prove he can beat San Diego without the help of referee Ed Hochuli?

Maybe he can't. Maybe we should face facts and realize that while he's no John Elway he may be no Jake Plummer, either.

Oh man.

See you on page 15!

:wave:

Los Broncos
03-16-2009, 11:27 PM
He keeps this up and his career will be short, toughen up and act like an all pro.

Popps
03-16-2009, 11:29 PM
Look, this isn't about Plummer. I'm shocked anyone is writing about him, at this stage. It just shows you that Judge has paid pretty close attention to what's happened in Denver over the past decade.

But, it IS about a QB needing more than a big arm to be a winner and a leader.

Cutler has a long, long way to go before he's either.

Pseudofool
03-16-2009, 11:32 PM
Plummer is class act compared to the way Cutler is acting. The drafting of Cutler was a larger slap in the face to Jake, then any potential trade would have been for Jay.

Taco John
03-16-2009, 11:33 PM
Almost makes you wish the Broncos never disposed of Jake Plummer, huh?


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Taco John
03-16-2009, 11:36 PM
:rofl:

Popps
03-16-2009, 11:38 PM
Almost makes you wish the Broncos never disposed of Jake Plummer, huh?


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

I think he was appealing to people who enjoy winning games.

spdirty
03-16-2009, 11:39 PM
:rofl:

LOL

Seriously though, you put Cutler on the 2005 team and we are probably SB champs.

SureShot
03-16-2009, 11:40 PM
**** you guys I quit.

23714

Popps
03-16-2009, 11:42 PM
LOL

Seriously though, you put Cutler on the 2005 team and we are probably SB champs.

Sure.

He couldn't beat Buffalo at home (0 TDs 1 INT), but he would have beaten the Steelers.

No doubt.

Taco John
03-16-2009, 11:42 PM
I think he was appealing to people who enjoy winning games.


People like you ran off the reason we won games during the Plummer era:


http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper1244/stills/brxcg2km.jpg


You got the defense you deserved when you started calling for Larry Coyer's head. Don't talk to me about people who enjoy winning games while you're pining for Sandpoint's fourth greatest handball player.

spdirty
03-16-2009, 11:44 PM
Sure.

He couldn't beat Buffalo at home (0 TDs 1 INT), but he would have beaten the Steelers.

No doubt.

Oh yeah, yet another game in which the defense gave up 30 points. Yeah, Im sure its also Cutlers fault for not scoring 53 against San Diego right?

Popps
03-16-2009, 11:48 PM
People like you ran off the reason we won games during the Plummer era:


http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper1244/stills/brxcg2km.jpg


You got the defense you deserved when you started calling for Larry Coyer's head. Don't talk to me about people who enjoy winning games while you're pining for Sandpoint's fourth greatest handball player.

Cry me a river.

I'm not going to get into Coyer for the obvious reasons, Taco. Suffice to say, things don't always work out.... and even quality people run their course.

I didn't "call for his head," either... I just said our results in the playoffs were unsatisfactory, and I'm sure Larry Coyer would be the first to agree with me.

Popps
03-16-2009, 11:49 PM
Oh yeah, yet another game in which the defense gave up 30 points. Yeah, Im sure its also Cutlers fault for not scoring 53 against San Diego right?

Well, I'm not sure.

See, here's the thing... it depends who's playing QB on whether or not 30 points matter.

Sometimes it DOES matter, and then other times... say, if your team gave up a playoff record in the first half, it doesn't matter. (Depending on who the QB is.)

I just get so confused!

Bob's your Information Minister
03-16-2009, 11:51 PM
I expect better from Clark Judge.

Had Cutler enjoyed the defenses Plummer did, the Broncos might have won a Super Bowl.

Popps
03-16-2009, 11:53 PM
I expect better from Clark Judge.

Had Cutler enjoyed the defenses Plummer did, the Broncos might have won a Super Bowl.

The defense that gave up a playoff record and allowed 35 points in the first half to Indy, or the defense that didn't stop Pittburgh on a single drive for the entire first half of a playoff game?

Which one of those?

Taco John
03-16-2009, 11:54 PM
Sure.

He couldn't beat Buffalo at home (0 TDs 1 INT), but he would have beaten the Steelers.

No doubt.


Cutler was brilliant that game, completing 25 passes for nearly 400 yards. The defense gave up 30 points. If Plummer had been the starter, you'd have been singing his praises, and blaming the defense entirely for the loss (and you'd be right considering they gave up 14 points in the fourth quarter).

You have a real tough time maintaining any level of consistency.

Taco John
03-16-2009, 11:55 PM
Cry me a river.

I'm not going to get into Coyer for the obvious reasons, Taco.


Yeah. Obviously you have a hard time admitting when you're wrong...


I didn't "call for his head," either...


Hahahahahahahahaha!

Reinventing history is what you're best at.

Bob's your Information Minister
03-16-2009, 11:57 PM
The defense that gave up a playoff record and allowed 35 points in the first half to Indy, or the defense that didn't stop Pittburgh on a single drive for the entire first half of a playoff game?

Which one of those?

You and I both know Plummer was only ever IN the playoffs because of Denver's defense.

Saddle him with the defenses Cutler had and you get Arizona days redux...

yerner
03-16-2009, 11:59 PM
I really question Clarks sanity. Thats just a silly comparison at this point. Pointless.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:00 AM
You and I both know Plummer was only ever IN the playoffs because of Denver's defense.

Saddle him with the defenses Cutler had and you get Arizona days redux...

Look, Boob... your track record on being correct about anything is about as abysmal as it gets around here. You're literally a running joke, with your posts being bumped to the front page almost daily for laughs. So, no offense if I don't take you too seriously.

Anyway, don't shoot the messenger. This is just another professional writer, a pretty good one in my opinion, who sees a problem in Jay Cutler's game, and it's not his arm.

This isn't about Plummer... although it is a riot that he brings him up. It's almost like someone asked him to rile up the Mane, and this is how he figured he'd do it.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:01 AM
I really question Clarks sanity. Thats just a silly comparison at this point. Pointless.

I actually agree. It was nice to win, but getting over the hump wasn't about a QB. It was about a real defense. We put all of our chips on QB, and have gone downhill ever since.

But, a bunch of us told you that was going to happen, so I'm not surprised.

The real story in this article, to me... is a darned good sports-writer (yet another) calling into question Cutler's ability as a leader/winner.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:05 AM
Cutler was brilliant that game, completing 25 passes for nearly 400 yards.

0 TDs. 1 INT.

1 Loss.

Brilliant.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:06 AM
Yeah. Obviously you have a hard time admitting when you're wrong...
.

Taco, does Coyer have any connections to this board? Any reason I might not want to go too far into it that you can think of?

spdirty
03-17-2009, 12:07 AM
0 TDs. 1 INT.

1 Loss.

Brilliant.

Did you even watch the game or did you just look at the box score?

Taco John
03-17-2009, 12:09 AM
0 TDs. 1 INT.

1 Loss.

Brilliant.



Like I said. If it was Plummer in there, you'd have argued in his favor.

This isn't about Cutler. This isn't about the defense. This is about you still being upset that it's NOT Plummer in there any more. Otherwise, you'd maintain a semblance of consistency and recognize that Cutler actually did have a great game.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:10 AM
Did you even watch the game or did you just look at the box score?

I watched the game. Cutler was fine, he wasn't great.

In reality, Cutler pissed away the 1st Chargers game and got a break. If you want to be realistic, THAT game should have cost us the playoffs. The late-season collapse was just icing.

Cutler may still be great some day, but he's not yet. Elway wins one of those last three games on sheer will, alone... and don't tell me differently.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:11 AM
Like I said. If it was Plummer in there, you'd have argued in his favor.

This isn't about Cutler. This isn't about the defense. This is about you still being upset that it's NOT Plummer in there any more. Otherwise, you'd maintain a semblance of consistency and recognize that Cutler actually did have a great game.

I argued in favor of Cutler having no defense all season long, Taco. No one is more painfully aware of that than me.

The difference is, you just started noticing it when a QB you liked took the helm. (And the franchise went to ****.)

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:13 AM
Taco, as for Coyer.. here's the end of the season poll I posted.... 68-9 in favor of letting him go. So, it wasn't like I was a lone voice in displeasure with the defensive results.

If you read my posts, I also question the personnel... and more specifically, his role in bringing in personnel. Later, there was some "hints" dropped around here that Coyer didn't have much choice in those matters. So, that led me to believe that maybe a larger coaching change was in order.

And... big surprise, it was.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=51541&highlight=coyer+poll

tsiguy96
03-17-2009, 12:13 AM
You and I both know Plummer was only ever IN the playoffs because of Denver's defense.

Saddle him with the defenses Cutler had and you get Arizona days redux...

as much as i hate you, i dont know how you can argue this. cutler has faced teams that scored 30+ points 15 times in his short career, i dont know how you are expected to win like that.

Taco John
03-17-2009, 12:14 AM
I argued in favor of Cutler having no defense all season long, Taco. No one is more painfully aware of that than me.

The difference is, you just started noticing it when a QB you liked took the helm. (And the franchise went to ****.)


The difference is, Jake was gutless in big games and it made everybody play scared - especially the defense. They weren't great, but they played like chicken ****s once Jake started his three and out interrupted by an interception routine.

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 12:14 AM
I think he was appealing to people who enjoy winning games.

But who cares about handball? I certainly don't.

Taco John
03-17-2009, 12:15 AM
Taco, as for Coyer.. here's the end of the season poll I posted.... 68-9 in favor of letting him go. So, it wasn't like I was a lone voice in displeasure with the defensive results.

I know you weren't alone. I just know you were loud in calling for his head.

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 12:17 AM
People like you ran off the reason we won games during the Plummer era:


http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper1244/stills/brxcg2km.jpg


^^^^^^ Yeah, that. Firing Coyer was perhaps the biggest mistake of Shanahan's tenure in Denver.

SureShot
03-17-2009, 12:17 AM
as much as i hate you, i dont know how you can argue this. cutler has faced teams that scored 30+ points 15 times in his short career, i dont know how you are expected to win like that.

15 times in his career of 37 games and is 3-12

McNabb's defense has given up 30+ ponits 18 times in his 134 starts and has the same number of wins amazing.

Bob's your Information Minister
03-17-2009, 12:17 AM
This is just another professional writer, a pretty good one in my opinion...


Clark Judge defended Carl Peterson for years.

This article is a joke. He did nothing but display extreme ignorance about Jake Plummer's tenure in Denver.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:18 AM
Clark Judge defended Carl Peterson for years.

This article is a joke. He did nothing but display extreme ignorance about Jake Plummer's tenure in Denver.

Uh huh... except for the winning part and Cutler not winning anything.

But, I wouldn't expect you to know about winning.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:20 AM
^^^^^^ Yeah, that. Firing Coyer was perhaps the biggest mistake of Shanahan's tenure in Denver.

Yea, because Coyer would have taken us to the promise land with Sam Adams, John Engelberger, Jarvis Moss and... ****, I can't even remember the other scrub's name from the practice squad. (Burton?)

Yea, letting Coyer go was a huge error... not the college-level personnel we put on the field.

::)

Bob's your Information Minister
03-17-2009, 12:21 AM
Uh huh... except for the winning part and Cutler not winning anything.

But, I wouldn't expect you to know about winning.

Gee, Clark Judge has access to pro-football-reference.com

Woo freaking hoo.

I would love to know what Plummer's record was when the opposition scored 30 points.

Taco John
03-17-2009, 12:24 AM
I would love to know what Plummer's record was when the opposition scored 30 points.


0-10


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=78423

Bob's your Information Minister
03-17-2009, 12:26 AM
Wow, in four years Plummer only faced 10 games where the opposition scored 30 or more?

WONDER WHY?

Taco John
03-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Wow, in four years Plummer only faced 10 games where the opposition scored 30 or more?

WONDER WHY?



Wanna know his TD to Interception ratio in playoff games? :~ohyah!:

SureShot
03-17-2009, 12:27 AM
With the Broncos Jake was 0-6 in the regular season and 0-3 in the playoffs if my math is correct.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:27 AM
Wow, in four years Plummer only faced 10 games where the opposition scored 30 or more?

WONDER WHY?

Hey Boob, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't write the article, and for the 5th time... the real story here is another national writer calling out Jay Cutler for his ability to win and be a leader on the field.

Then again, he doesn't write for Warpaint Illustrated or anything.

Bob's your Information Minister
03-17-2009, 12:30 AM
Hey Boob, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't write the article, and for the 5th time... the real story here is another national writer calling out Jay Cutler for his ability to win and be a leader on the field.

Then again, he doesn't write for Warpaint Illustrated or anything.

The real story is you'll latch onto anything that discredits Jay Cutler.

I could write someone about how terrible he is and you'd be all "EVEN BOB GETS IT!"

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 12:35 AM
Yea, because Coyer would have taken us to the promise land with Sam Adams, John Engelberger, Jarvis Moss and... ****, I can't even remember the other scrub's name from the practice squad. (Burton?)

Yea, letting Coyer go was a huge error... not the college-level personnel we put on the field.

::)

He did much better with that level of personnel than either DC who followed him. Our D was respectable... until injuries took their toll... every year Coyer was our DC. Coyer's defenses certainly weren't the league-wide laughingstock we had on the field the last 2 seasons.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:36 AM
I know you weren't alone. I just know you were loud in calling for his head.

Taco, since you have no class... I'll spell it out.

Some folks may not realize that there is a rumor that one of the Omane member's has a family tie to Larry Coyer.

This poster happens to be one of my favorites and a guy I like. Of course, most of us didn't know that during his tenure until the end. But, football boards being what they are, people get heated, hyperbole is used and sometimes we express ourselves in outspoken ways.

That said, if you look at the poll I posted, Taco.. it was almost unanimous. Furthermore, if you look at my posts with regards to Coyer, I wasn't calling him a **********, I was simply saying that when someone heads up a unit that performs poorly for a length of time, they're often let go.

OFTEN, that's not all their fault. Later, SPECULATION came about that perhaps Coyer wasn't given any control over personnel.

Now, was this true? If so, then the next person to be let go was appropriate. Perhaps more appropriate? I don't know. I'll bet Larry Coyer knows, though.

Point of all this is... your desire to paint me as Coyer's grim reaper is not only inaccurate, it just shows how classless you've become. You seem to really be reaching lately, and this is just another sad example.

I freely admit to being with the VAST majority of people who agreed a change was in order. Being really bad in big games will do that to fans. That said, I also don't believe for a minute that Larry Coyer could have done a damned thing with the pig-$hit we trotted out there on the field the past couple of seasons. Things would have just become more and more difficult for him.

I like Coyer as a person, from what I've read. I don't think it was all his fault. But, I also know damned well his release wasn't any kind of "turning point" for this franchise. We were headed for the ****ter and Coyer probably got lucky to get out when he did.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:38 AM
The real story is you'll latch onto anything that discredits Jay Cutler.

I could write someone about how terrible he is and you'd be all "EVEN BOB GETS IT!"

Yea, probably not fatty.

BABronco
03-17-2009, 12:38 AM
The real story is you'll latch onto anything that discredits Jay Cutler.

I could write someone about how terrible he is and you'd be all "EVEN BOB GETS IT!"

You know something is way wrong in the world when Bob is talking sense.

BABronco
03-17-2009, 12:39 AM
Yea, probably not fatty.

The world is right again!!!! :strong:

Back to calling names.

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:40 AM
The world is right again!!!! :strong:

Back to calling names.

It is Bob. C'mon. He doesn't count.

GreatBronco16
03-17-2009, 12:43 AM
I would love to know what Plummer's record was when the opposition scored 30 points.

About the same as every other QB in the damn league. Nobody hardly wins when their team gives up 30+ points.

Cutler is a damn good QB who still have a crap load of upside. The biggest and most important thing in that article is the fact that Plummer didn't act out on the drafting of Cutler, knowing that he was going into his last year. But Cutler can't handle what happened to him.

I'm pretty sure that Shanny didn't tell Jake that he was going to move up to take a QB in that draft, so that, in a way, is the same as lying.

Plummer took it like the Vet and man he was. He went out and gave it his all to show why he shouldn't be replaced. But in the end his all wasn't enough. I was so happy when Shanny put Cutler in. At that moment, I knew that good things were in store for Denver in the coming future.

Wow, how wrong I might have been.

I want Cutler to be our QB. I want to see what Josh McDaniels can do with this team. I think we can find our way back to the SB if this will just end and get back to the business that matters.

GreatBronco16
03-17-2009, 12:45 AM
And why is Boob in here lately talking like a Bronco fan?

Hmmmmmm.

DBBBSBS
03-17-2009, 12:51 AM
About the same as every other QB in the damn league. Nobody hardly wins when their team gives up 30+ points.




does anyone know peyton's stat's in games with 30+ points ? also philip rivers ?

Bronco Bob
03-17-2009, 12:53 AM
LOL

Seriously though, you put Cutler on the 2005 team and we are probably SB champs.

Or we don't even make the play-offs.

SureShot
03-17-2009, 12:56 AM
does anyone know peyton's stat's in games with 30+ points ? also philip rivers ?

Rivers is 1-7

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:05 AM
It's sort of a ridiculous stat. Plummer set a team record for yardage (at the time) in a shootout against Atlanta and our defense couldn't keep us in the game.

Conversely, QBs like Rothlisberger who are on teams built on defense and ball-control are probably not going to fare well in 30+ point games. Yet, he's got rings on both hands.

Obsession on that stat is typical of the Playstation generation. It just shows a real obsession with bull****.

A better question to ask is why does the QB have to score more than 30 points?

Rivers is one of the best QBs in the league, and he apparently only managed 1 win under those circumstances.

It's a silly stat and I'm not sure why anyone is obsessed with it.

Try wins. Start there. Wins.

Then, go to TD to INT ratio.

That right there will tell you 60% of what you need to know about your QB.

Then, you can factor in intangibles. (How much to guys like playing with him, durability, leadership, etc.)

CEH
03-17-2009, 01:07 AM
Plummer 2-15 when the D gives up 25+ a game.
2 less ppg than Culter's avergae of 27 ppg
Peyton Manning 9-25 when his team gives up over 30
Stupid article

UberBroncoMan
03-17-2009, 01:07 AM
Jake also had a hell of a defense and constant 1,000 yard rushers. Again this post proves nothing fruitful in relation to the current situation.

Taco John
03-17-2009, 01:08 AM
Try wins. Start there. Wins.

Then, go to TD to INT ratio.

That right there will tell you 60% of what you need to know about your QB.



Yeah? Then by your standard, how did Jake rate as a post season quarterback?

UberBroncoMan
03-17-2009, 01:08 AM
Plummer 2-15 when the D gives up 25+ a game.
2 less ppg than Culter's avergae of 27 ppg
Peyton Manning 9-25 when his team gives up over 30
Stupid article

Thanks for those facts... again shows how pointless this is.

UberBroncoMan
03-17-2009, 01:12 AM
Yeah? Then by your standard, how did Jake rate as a post season quarterback?

By Popps standard, Trent Dilfer was a hall of fame QB. Not the defense who carried him just as Elway was carried in his early years and Jake was carried while here. Lets not forget as well, that Jake was carried by the same running game that helped allow Elway to have the best passing years of his career with Shanahan.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

Look at his final 4 years.

Really, this entire thread is nothing more than an irrational attempt to spew hatred at Cutler. Popps if you were someone who truly cared about the situation and held no true bias, you would not make continuous threads and posts like this.

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:12 AM
Yeah? Then by your standard, how did Jake rate as a post season quarterback?

Honestly? Not very well, but I only thought he had a fighting chance in one game... and we won that game.

The other games, our defense was laying on the ground, spread-eagle getting ####ed so hard repeatedly that John Elway and Joe Montana couldn't have rotated snaps and saved us.

But, like the rest of our team in those losses, he struggled.

But, I didn't find the Jake part so interesting as I did the fact that another respected football journalist has questioned Cutler's personality.

Weird, since that was just all something that came up this week, huh?

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:13 AM
By Popps standard, Trent Dilfer was a hall of fame QB.

Umm... no.

I listed my standards.

List Dilfer's stats and run them through that filter.

He doesn't come close.

That's you making an argument against what you WISH I was saying.

DBBBSBS
03-17-2009, 01:16 AM
Rivers is 1-7

thanks 1-7 and 9-25... wow.

i wonder who has a winning percentage if at all... with there team giving up more than 30 pts. LOL i would say nobody.

All said and done, I do like jay. But i dont want broncos giving them contract extension after all this mess. I want him to earn it by taking us to playoffs.

UberBroncoMan
03-17-2009, 01:18 AM
Umm... no.

I listed my standards.

List Dilfer's stats and run them through that filter.

He doesn't come close.

That's you making an argument against what you WISH I was saying.

Try wins. Start there. Wins.

Then, go to TD to INT ratio.

That right there will tell you 60% of what you need to know about your QB.

Then, you can factor in intangibles. (How much to guys like playing with him, durability, leadership, etc.)

Did Dilfer win a Super Bowl? Did Brad Johnson win a Super Bowl?

Is that not winning?

Is the Super Bowl not the pinnacle of winning in the NFL?


Seriously... your hypocrisy is not only damning but saddening.

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 01:19 AM
Is this supposed to be surprising? That teams tend to win more often (regardless of who's at QB) if their defenses perform well? Or that any given defense giving up 30+ points usually results in a loss? DUH!!!!

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:21 AM
Is this supposed to be surprising? That teams tend to win more often (regardless of who's at QB) if their defenses perform well? Or that any given defense giving up 30+ points usually results in a loss? DUH!!!!

Exactly.

As I said, I'm not sure why people are getting dialed into such a silly stat.

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:22 AM
Did Dilfer win a Super Bowl? Did Brad Johnson win a Super Bowl?

Is that not winning?

Is the Super Bowl not the pinnacle of winning in the NFL?


Seriously... your hypocrisy is not only damning but saddening.

They did win SBs.

What's your point? Do you have one?

The thread was about another sportswriter calling out Cutler's attitude. You're talking about Trent Dilfer.

How can I help you?

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 01:27 AM
Exactly.

As I said, I'm not sure why people are getting dialed into such a silly stat.

Special teams is also a key component... consistently losing the field position battle (defending a short field) also often results in teams losing. We have consistently lost the field position battle in recent seasons. I can't even remember the last time we had a return for TD... I "think" it might have been Darrien Gordon who did it though...

UberBroncoMan
03-17-2009, 01:27 AM
They did win SBs.

What's your point? Do you have one?

The thread was about another sportswriter calling out Cutler's attitude. You're talking about Trent Dilfer.

How can I help you?

It never changes with you, lol. You get shown up with your own words and you run off on a tangent trying to move eyes from your own hypocrisy.

You're just as bad as all the Cutler fanatics in your damnation of the man.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7559/poppsflopsx.jpg

How much are they right now?

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:33 AM
How much are they right now?

Sorry, kid. I just don't know what your question is. If you have a question, please ask it. Otherwise, you can go back to your battered fan routine.

Do you have a question?

You're babbling about Trent Dilfer.

What is your question?

UberBroncoMan
03-17-2009, 01:34 AM
Sorry, kid. I just don't know what your question is. If you have a question, please ask it. Otherwise, you can go back to your battered fan routine.

Do you have a question?

You're babbling about Trent Dilfer.

What is your question?

You're hopeless Popps Flops, I'll leave you to hanging on the forum for the rest of the night.

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:35 AM
Special teams is also a key component... consistently losing the field position battle (defending a short field) also often results in teams losing. We have consistently lost the field position battle in recent seasons. I can't even remember the last time we had a return for TD... I "think" it might have been Darrien Gordon who did it though...

We've been awful on special teams for so long, it's tough to even remember being good.

Our coverage units were a LITTLE better last season, and we have had decent kicking over the years, with a few exceptions. But, you're right... they haven't done or QB OR our defense any favors.

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:36 AM
You're hopeless Popps Flops, I'll leave you to hanging on the forum for the rest of the night.

As I said emo-boy, just ask me whatever it is you want to ask. You're just a gnat flying around my ass. Ask your question, or please indeed DO leave me alone.

BreesLightning
03-17-2009, 03:06 AM
"Here's a comparson of two similar defensive teams and their QB's, Arizona and Denver

Arizona Defense gave up as many points in 2008 as Denver.

Denver had a far better rushing game than Arizona.

Denver had a superior offensive line over Arizona

Cutler 11 sacks 25 TD 18 INT 62% completion 86 passer rating

Warner 26 sacks 30 TD 14 INT 67% completion 97 passer rating

Arizona to the Super Bowl, Denver to the Toilet Bowl.

If you put any QB in the league behind Denver's line with their receivers and they will put up better numbers than Cutler every time.

What is missing from Denver is a leader at QB who the team will rally around. Look at the Steelers and you see a team with possibly the worse offensive line in football but you see a winner. And don't cry to me about the number 1 defense. You need the number one defense when you have an offense that couldn't move the ball but, the team knew if it was close, Rothlesberger could pull the game out.

Cutler doesn't have a leader's mentality and Denver can forget a serious playoff run with him at QB. "


"


Rivers/Cutler

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just looking up a stat in their games vs each other(for Henry).

Of the 5 games they have faced each other:

Rivers Average Passer Rating: 130.48
Cutler's Average Passer Rating: 77.08

In comparison, for Rivers that would put him 25 points higher than the highest passer rating for the 2008 season. Which was him at 105.5.

It would put Cutler at 27th in the league, right below Jamarcus and right above Thigpen. "






Cutler is definitely a worldbeater.....Please do whatever it takes to keep him in Denver.

Signed,

All Chargers Fans

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 03:17 AM
"Here's a comparson of two similar defensive teams and their QB's, Arizona and Denver

Arizona Defense gave up as many points in 2008 as Denver.

Denver had a far better rushing game than Arizona.

Denver had a superior offensive line over Arizona

Cutler 11 sacks 25 TD 18 INT 62% completion 86 passer rating

Warner 26 sacks 30 TD 14 INT 67% completion 97 passer rating

Arizona to the Super Bowl, Denver to the Toilet Bowl.

If you put any QB in the league behind Denver's line with their receivers and they will put up better numbers than Cutler every time.

What is missing from Denver is a leader at QB who the team will rally around. Look at the Steelers and you see a team with possibly the worse offensive line in football but you see a winner. And don't cry to me about the number 1 defense. You need the number one defense when you have an offense that couldn't move the ball but, the team knew if it was close, Rothlesberger could pull the game out.

Cutler doesn't have a leader's mentality and Denver can forget a serious playoff run with him at QB. "


"


Rivers/Cutler

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just looking up a stat in their games vs each other(for Henry).

Of the 5 games they have faced each other:

Rivers Average Passer Rating: 130.48
Cutler's Average Passer Rating: 77.08

In comparison, for Rivers that would put him 25 points higher than the highest passer rating for the 2008 season. Which was him at 105.5.

It would put Cutler at 27th in the league, right below Jamarcus and right above Thigpen. "






Cutler is definitely a worldbeater.....Please do whatever it takes to keep him in Denver.

Signed,

All Chargers Fans

I believe an annoying gnat just flew past my head. Its opinion mattered about as much as "All (2) Chargers Fans'"

atomicbloke
03-17-2009, 03:33 AM
We had 2 first round picks in the 2006 draft.

# 22 and #29 that became # 15 and # 22 with the Lelie/Jets/Falcons trade.

I just wonder what might have been if we had added 2 stud pass rushing DEs to the 2005 AFCCG team.

atomicbloke
03-17-2009, 03:48 AM
The article isn't saying that Plummer has better QB skills than Cutler. Thats not the main point. Why are people running with it?

The main point of the article is the comparison between how Plummer reacted to the drafting of Cutler and how Cutler reacted to the possible trade for Matt Cassel.

True, Cutler just went to the Probowl. But Plummer also made the ProBowl that year albeit as an alternate and had his team in the AFCCG.

Shanny went behind his back and traded up in the draft for Cutler. Plummer took it like a man. He congratulated Shanny the next day on a great pick. He came to training camp and fought like a man for his job. While his limitations were obvious, he never threw in the towel and tanked.

The article compares this to Culter's present reaction.

Shanny once said that if you are afraid of competition, then you are not good enough to be in the National Football League.

It was obviously directed at Plummer after the Cutler pick. Plummer did game on that time.

Just wish Shanny would call Cutler now and repeat the same thing.

Cutler can show up be the consumate professional, have a stellar season backed by an improved defense and make McD and Cassel look stupid. Bowlen would be forced to break the bank for him or some other team would.

Surely, Cutler has that much confidence in his abilities? Does he have some reason to believe his value will decrease over the next season rather than increase?

elsid13
03-17-2009, 03:59 AM
Are we talking about the same Jake Plummer that had a hiss fit about being traded to TB vs Houston? and retired.

atomicbloke
03-17-2009, 04:13 AM
Are we talking about the same Jake Plummer that had a hiss fit about being traded to TB vs Houston? and retired.

Please educate me about the hiss fit.

All I know is that he retired.

And he repaid money to the Bucs for his retirement.

If there was drama and whining and crying to the media, I must have missed it.

hambone13
03-17-2009, 04:44 AM
Please educate me about the hiss fit.

All I know is that he retired.

And he repaid money to the Bucs for his retirement.

If there was drama and whining and crying to the media, I must have missed it.

Seriously, what you're asking people to dig up is ridiculous. It's well known and understood that Shanahan had issues with Plummer's work ethic and dedication to learning his complicated offense and football in general.

Shanny (good or bad) wanted "dedicated". He got that in cutler and JC broke many of the franchise records as insignificant as that may be, in the spirit of winning last year, with one of the worst defenses in the league, piss poor ST play and perhaps the worst RB injury problems in the history of the league.

Plummer didn't come out publicly and complain because he didn't want to play football any more. However, he did win the handball championship in Idaho with his boy Blue (I think that was his name.) I'm pretty sure Blue was leading the hound dog posse that was tracking down the pack of wild dogs ravaging the state of Idaho at the time. It was costing 15% than their state wide budget on animal control so they threatened Jake with his state citizenship and he opted to make up the difference.

TheReverend
03-17-2009, 05:40 AM
You and I both know Plummer was only ever IN the playoffs because of Denver's defense.

Saddle him with the defenses Cutler had and you get Arizona days redux...

Worse.

Aeneas Williams did more of the winning in those games than Jake Plummer ever did.

TheReverend
03-17-2009, 05:41 AM
"Here's a comparson of two similar defensive teams and their QB's, Arizona and Denver

Arizona had 17 more defensive turnovers running a pressure scheme.

RunSilentRunDeep
03-17-2009, 06:46 AM
At this point, I wish I could get in a time machine, keep Plummer and draft Haloti Ngata (the pick before Jay).

broncofan
03-17-2009, 07:02 AM
I'm not going to lie...I can't get over how poorly our defense has played the past couple season. Therefore, I can't absorb any article that tries to downplay the performance of the defense and their impact on our wins and losses, then in turn swing that burden to Jay.

Say what you want about him being a "crybaby," or handling the situation immaturely...that's open to everyone's interpretation and opinion. However, to say that Jake was better is just plain idiocy (I was a big Jake supporter) and goes to show how the media has milked this saga beyond dry.

Williams
03-17-2009, 07:04 AM
Wow, Cutler got torn a new one in that article. And he deserves it. I know a majority of fans feel Cutler deserves their allegiance... but why? He's handled this entire offseason like a little b****. Either a little b**** or a pawn for his agent's big payday. Neither of those are characteristics you look for in a leader or winner. He wants out... show him the door. I felt the same way when J. Walker threw his little tantrum. Look where that got him. There's no doubt Cutler's got the physical tools to be great. Does he have the mental fortitude... well, that has yet to be determined. So far, the answer is no.

Does Cutler even deserve to be a Bronco anymore? IMO, it's not too late for him to man up and play football.... but I dont think that's gonna happen.

I'm sure I'm in the vast minority here, but I'd be all for bringing back Jake... if he'd want to play. The man played with heart, never sulked like a little girl, and as the author stated... won football games. I for one was a fan. Bring back Jake and ship Cutler somewhere for two firsts. Then go draft Jack Elway in three years. :)

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 07:37 AM
If you put any QB in the league behind Denver's line with their receivers and they will put up better numbers than Cutler every time.

So, by definition, you are saying that Cutler is the worst QB in the league. Care to amend this statement a little?

lex
03-17-2009, 07:45 AM
Sure.

He couldn't beat Buffalo at home (0 TDs 1 INT), but he would have beaten the Steelers.

No doubt.

The QB isnt the only player on the team. He is not a boxer. Wins and losses is not solely attributable to the QB. If you go back through time, youll often see the teams that win SBs were the one that ran the ball better and played better defense. Youre reply is so ridiculous. Its really nonsensical.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 07:51 AM
Cutler was brilliant that game, completing 25 passes for nearly 400 yards. The defense gave up 30 points. If Plummer had been the starter, you'd have been singing his praises, and blaming the defense entirely for the loss (and you'd be right considering they gave up 14 points in the fourth quarter).

You have a real tough time maintaining any level of consistency.

WHAT~!???!??!?!

That was one of the worst games Cutler has ever had.....costly turnover in the red zone when we had the chance to put it away, couldnt get the offense going in the second half...

cmon

lex
03-17-2009, 07:54 AM
WHAT~!???!??!?!

That was one of the worst games Cutler has ever had.....costly turnover in the red zone when we had the chance to put it away, couldnt get the offense going in the second half...

cmon

Couldnt get the offense going in the 2nd half? Was he supposed to go off for 600 yards? Its nice to that this is what people require of him for him to not suck. Its good to see people arent being ridiculous.

WolfpackGuy
03-17-2009, 07:58 AM
The defense has been total trash in Cutler's 2 full years of starting.

Plummer was on veteran teams with defenses that could actually stop someone (other than Indianapolis in the playoffs) from time to time.

The Broncos pretty much overnight went from perennially one of the oldest teams in the league to one of the youngest teams starting in the latter part of 2006.

After 3 years, Shanahan knew by 2006 what he had and didn't have in Plummer. I don't blame him a damn bit for drafting Cutler.

Hulamau
03-17-2009, 08:06 AM
:rofl:

Hey I was one who welcomed Jay from the first moment Shanny traded up for him and supported him big time all the way until the last couple weeks, but I always respected the way Plummer handled himself in a ***y god forsaken and thankless situation.

Talent-wise, Jay is a head above Plummer, obviously, but in resilience, moxie and ability to inspire his teammates, Plummer was hands down the better man and now we see an all around more mature and better human being.

Circle Orange
03-17-2009, 08:10 AM
i want to bee traded. :clown:

nobuddy akcnowledges my greatniss.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 08:12 AM
Talent-wise, Jay is a head above Plummer, obviously, but in resilience, moxie and ability to inspire his teammates, Plummer was hands down the better man

Ability to inspire his teammates? This keeps getting thrown around because of his record and nothing else. You know what? Jake's teammates were simply more talented than Jay's. It's really that simple.

NOBODY would be talking about what a great inspirational leader Plummer was if he was the QB last year, having to outscore teams regularly instead of having the benefit of "managing" an offense that regularly saw its defense give up less than 10 pts (which they did most of his starts in 2006 in particular).

Plummer is the equivalent of a pitcher that has an ERA of 4.50, but got on average about 6 runs of run support from his teammates.

Cutler has a much better ERA, but only gets about 2 runs of support each time he takes the hill.

Circle Orange
03-17-2009, 08:14 AM
BTW, according to colin cowherd (on the airwaves right now) Cutler rules. Cutler rules. Cutler rules. Let the Broncos bow to his awesomeness. Cutler is in charge of the entire situation. He has an unlimited ceiling. The entire league will be calling for a trade. And so forth, and so on.

Now you know why this guy gets run out of town every few months. ROFL!

Meck77
03-17-2009, 08:22 AM
If I had a dollar for everyone that told me "Jay will get us to a SB".
Jay will surpass Jake's win/loss record.
etc..etc...etc...

In the end all Jay did was tell the Broncos and their fans to "Show him the money".

The reality is Jay is a bigger punk compared to the leadership that Jake brought to Denver. Jake clearly had less talent....But he played like a MAN and bowed out gracefully when he was questioned unlike Cutler.

They called Jake the mistake. Really? In the end the real mistake was drafting Cutler. Where would the Broncos had been had we drafted someone else? Who knows but we probably would have at least sniffed the fuggen playoffs.

Kaylore
03-17-2009, 08:23 AM
Plummer? Oh good grief. Coyer was as much the reason that Plummer's win record was so good. Plummer had like one fourth quarter comeback while he was in Denver. Jay has done more with less than Plummer ever did.

I'm still waiting for some of the people here to admit they were wrong about Coyer. I remember comments like "when we get a real defensive coordinator we'll see things change" and "Coyer would make a very good position coach." Fools!

TonyR
03-17-2009, 08:24 AM
Warner overcame the club's shortcomings because that is what good quarterbacks are supposed to do.

And while I don't agree with how this was handled -- or mishandled -- it is a reminder to Cutler to wake up and realize the NFL is a business.

...but he did find a way to win -- and isn't that how we measure our quarterbacks?

When, at last, Plummer was dismissed by the Broncos, he didn't cry or rant about the decision. He simply retired, exiled by a team and a city that didn't appreciate him.

The guy needs to toughen up and drop his woe-is-me mantra. If he can't get over what happened here, how does he demonstrate to teammates that he is resilient; that he is someone they can trust when their world is crumbling? And how does he prove he can shut out everything around him on the field when he can shut nothing out now?

I didn't read this whole miserable thread but I think the points above from the article are key.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 08:25 AM
Couldnt get the offense going in the 2nd half? Was he supposed to go off for 600 yards? Its nice to that this is what people require of him for him to not suck. Its good to see people arent being ridiculous.

no...but he could have NOT turned the ball over inside hte 15 yard line...

I'm starting to wonder if peopel here even watch the games, or just look at the box score the next day

Meck77
03-17-2009, 08:26 AM
[QUOTE=Kaylore;2337854

I'm still waiting for some of the people here to admit they were wrong about Coyer. I remember comments like "when we get a real defensive coordinator we'll see things change" and "Coyer would make a very good position coach." Fools![/QUOTE]

Well that would be the Mastermind Shanny who blew that call. Just one more reason in the long list that he was fired I'm sure. Bowlen admitted he contemplated canning his ass for several years if you recall.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 08:29 AM
<TABLE class=tablehead id=playTable cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=colhead vAlign=top><TD colSpan=2>Denver Broncos at 8:54, (1st play from scrimmage 8:48)
</TD><TD>BUF</TD><TD>DEN</TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at DEN 24</TD><TD>(8:48) J.Cutler pass incomplete deep middle to D.Graham.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 10 at DEN 24</TD><TD>(8:43) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short left intended for E.Royal INTERCEPTED by L.McKelvin at DEN 29. L.McKelvin to DEN 27 for 2 yards (E.Royal).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD> </TD><TD>PENALTY on BUF-M.Stroud, Defensive Holding, 5 yards, enforced at DEN 24 - No Play.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at DEN 29</TD><TD>(8:37) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass deep left to B.Marshall ran ob at DEN 48 for 19 yards.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at DEN 48</TD><TD>(8:37) T.Bell up the middle to BUF 49 for 3 yards (K.Williams, R.Denney).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 7 at BUF 49</TD><TD>(7:52) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short middle to B.Stokley (R.Corner).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>3rd and 7 at BUF 49</TD><TD>(7:49) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short middle to E.Royal to BUF 34 for 15 yards (B.Scott).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at BUF 34</TD><TD>(7:10) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short right to B.Marshall to BUF 26 for 8 yards (T.McGee, P.Posluszny).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 2 at BUF 26</TD><TD>(6:32) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short right to B.Marshall to BUF 15 for 11 yards (P.Posluszny).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:51) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short right to T.Bell.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:47) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short right to B.Marshall.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>3rd and 10 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(5:42) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short right intended for B.Marshall INTERCEPTED by K.Mitchell at BUF 1. K.Mitchell to BUF 2 for 1 yard (B.Marshall).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: black"><TD colSpan=4> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


<TABLE class=tablehead id=playTable cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=3><TBODY><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at DEN 39</TD><TD>(3:27) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short middle to B.Stokley to DEN 46 for 7 yards (R.Corner, P.Posluszny).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 3 at DEN 46</TD><TD>(2:43) (Shotgun) J.Cutler scrambles right guard to BUF 45 for 9 yards (Sp.Johnson).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at BUF 45</TD><TD>(2:07) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete deep right to B.Marshall (T.McGee).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 10 at BUF 45</TD><TD>(2:01) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short left to B.Stokley (R.Corner).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD> </TD><TD>Two-Minute Warning</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>3rd and 10 at BUF 45</TD><TD>(1:56) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short middle to B.Stokley to BUF 32 for 13 yards (K.Ellison).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at BUF 32</TD><TD>(1:26) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short middle to B.Marshall to BUF 20 for 12 yards (R.Corner).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD> </TD><TD>Timeout #2 by DEN at 01:16.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>1st and 10 at BUF 20</TD><TD>(1:16) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short middle to B.Stokley (R.Corner).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>2nd and 10 at BUF 20</TD><TD>(1:07) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass short left to D.Graham to BUF 15 for 5 yards (P.Posluszny).</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=evenrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>3rd and 5 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(:44) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short middle to B.Stokley.</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR class=oddrow vAlign=top><TD noWrap>4th and 5 at BUF 15</TD><TD>(:39) (Shotgun) J.Cutler pass incomplete short middle to B.Stokley (R.Corner).</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 08:32 AM
as you can see from the drive above....Cutler threw 2 picks (one called back) on the final drives that couldnt get us into the playoffs


but he had a GREAT game guys

TheReverend
03-17-2009, 08:38 AM
Plummer? Oh good grief. Coyer was as much the reason that Plummer's win record was so good. Plummer had like one fourth quarter comeback while he was in Denver. Jay has done more with less than Plummer ever did.

I'm still waiting for some of the people here to admit they were wrong about Coyer. I remember comments like "when we get a real defensive coordinator we'll see things change" and "Coyer would make a very good position coach." Fools!

In bold is me. And he made one hell of a linebackers coach. I didn't like many of his defensive decisions as a coordinator. How much was under his control or his fault is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I wish we'd let Jim Bates stay...

TonyR
03-17-2009, 08:39 AM
as you can see from the drive above....Cutler threw 2 picks (one called back) on the final drives that couldnt get us into the playoffs

but he had a GREAT game guys

Good post, VJ. People love to look at stats and think that tells the story. They love to talk about all the yards and TDs Jay threw for while ignoring what he did at big moments in big games. Bottom line: all excuses aside, (running backs, defense, etc.) he didn't get it done over the last 4 weeks of the season.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 08:56 AM
Good post, VJ. People love to look at stats and think that tells the story. They love to talk about all the yards and TDs Jay threw for while ignoring what he did at big moments in big games. Bottom line: all excuses aside, (running backs, defense, etc.) he didn't get it done over the last 4 weeks of the season.

That's the only point I am trying to make....I think Cutler is SUPER talented and I have been head over heels in support of this kid and his progression...

but to just throw out blind stats is completely ridiculous....and TJ said in an earlier post that the numbers he put up were UNREAL and it was the defenses fault because they NEVER gave him field position

he was set up at the 40 with 5 minutes to go and just didnt get teh job done at the most important juncture of the season....not only that but he threw a pick TWICE on the drive and was completely leaning on Marshall to bail him out, if you look at the drive chart...

now, should this be the basis to judge him off of? one drive?? no, probably not...but people tend to just look at the numbers and forget the actual drives that happened and how he failed to get it done...

TonyR
03-17-2009, 09:01 AM
That's the only point I am trying to make...

We're very much on the same page.

Taco John
03-17-2009, 09:08 AM
It's funny how selective Plummer fans are. All of his interceptions were argued off as Jake being Jake and trying to make things happen. Our defense puts us in a hole by scoring 14 points in the fourth quarter and putting our backs to the wall, and the Plummer fans can't forgive a desperate interception.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 09:10 AM
We're very much on the same page.

I have been trying to be as supportive of both management and Cutler as possible but at this point its hard to back the kid....I've been a Broncos fan well before he showed up and will continue to be well after he leaves (if he leaves)

would I love to see him here next year? Yes, but only if that means that this goes away and we don't have a dust-up in the middle of the year

Do I like the McDaniels hire? Yes...although I didnt agree with firing Shanny you have to look at the two events as separate and mutually exclusive managment decisions...

I just find it so strange that a large component of this board has such a hatred for a guy that is trying to make this team better...I understand the enthusiasm and the willingness to back up the QB who has been behind center for 3 years but at what point are we simply cutting of our noses to spite our face with the HC/Owner hate? I think we may already be there

Taco John
03-17-2009, 09:10 AM
The main point of the article is the comparison between how Plummer reacted to the drafting of Cutler and how Cutler reacted to the possible trade for Matt Cassel.


That's funny, because I swear that people here keep telling me that Cutler is choking his career away.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 09:11 AM
It's funny how selective Plummer fans are. All of his interceptions were argued off as Jake being Jake and trying to make things happen. Our defense puts us in a hole by scoring 14 points in the fourth quarter and putting our backs to the wall, and the Plummer fans can't forgive a desperate interception.

what desperate interception are you referring to??

not being a smart a$$

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 09:16 AM
as you can see from the drive above....Cutler threw 2 picks (one called back) on the final drives that couldnt get us into the playoffs


but he had a GREAT game guys

I also see only one running play called to every 20 passing plays. You can't win that way. Period.

Bob's your Information Minister
03-17-2009, 09:21 AM
It's funny how selective Plummer fans are. All of his interceptions were argued off as Jake being Jake and trying to make things happen. Our defense puts us in a hole by scoring 14 points in the fourth quarter and putting our backs to the wall, and the Plummer fans can't forgive a desperate interception.

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Northman
03-17-2009, 09:37 AM
But, it IS about a QB needing more than a big arm to be a winner and a leader.




Yea, he needs a defense or so i have been told by a certain thread starter. Ha!

Taco John
03-17-2009, 09:42 AM
I have to hand it to Jake... That Bob video aside, he did have a way of making the Chiefs look goofy. Every time he ran a bootleg, Chiefs defenders felt it in their pant leg.

Bob's your Information Minister
03-17-2009, 09:51 AM
The Chiefs got the last laugh, Taco. You know it.

24champ
03-17-2009, 09:53 AM
In bold is me. And he made one hell of a linebackers coach. I didn't like many of his defensive decisions as a coordinator. How much was under his control or his fault is in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I wish we'd let Jim Bates stay...

I agree, Coyer was a great position coach. Being a DC was a little over his head, he didn't make any adjustments in games, particularly the playoff losses and that was getting old.

Then he lost the locker room in his last season and that was the reason he was let go. I've been told that some defensive players mockingly laughed at Coyer when he tried to rally the troops after that blowout game in SD in 2006.

But yeah...Bates should have had another year, he really wanted to fix that D-line.

Rock Chalk
03-17-2009, 10:07 AM
Couldnt get the offense going in the 2nd half? Was he supposed to go off for 600 yards? Its nice to that this is what people require of him for him to not suck. Its good to see people arent being ridiculous.

I would have preferred Jay threw for 150 yards and 3 touchdowns instead of nearly 400 yards, 0 TDs and 1 costly red zone interception.

But hey, thats just me.

Rigs11
03-17-2009, 10:22 AM
Whats funny is the constant defending of baby Jay around here. Sure Plummer flipped off the crowd when he was booed, and what did Jay do? he sulked by himself on the bench. Which would you rather have? Plummer would also fit in McDaniels system pretty freaking good. Don't be surprised if he comes back to play.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 10:25 AM
The truth hurts Broncos fans: Plummer was a winner and Cutler is a loser.

Popps
03-17-2009, 10:30 AM
I

I just find it so strange that a large component of this board has such a hatred for a guy that is trying to make this team better...I understand the enthusiasm and the willingness to back up the QB who has been behind center for 3 years but at what point are we simply cutting of our noses to spite our face with the HC/Owner hate? I think we may already be there

QFT

Popps
03-17-2009, 10:32 AM
The Chiefs got the last laugh, Taco. You know it.

How, never having a winning season while we went to the playoffs several times?

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 10:36 AM
Here's another point to consider:

Jake has proven he can win with ANY team. I.e. he was a winner in college, taking ASU to their one Rose Bowl in god knows how long. He was able to win in Arizona, taking them to their only playoff victory AND win in the entire time they had been in AZ up to that point. And he consistenly won in Denver (in part because of his leadership).

Jay has been a loser his whole football career. He was a loser at Vandy and he's been a loser on the Broncos. Has he posted great stats that whole time? Sure. Nonetheless, the dude is a natural loser.

TheReverend
03-17-2009, 10:42 AM
Here's another point to consider:

Jake has proven he can win with ANY team. I.e. he was a winner in college, taking ASU to their one Rose Bowl in god knows how long. He was able to win in Arizona, taking them to their only playoff victory AND win in the entire time they had been in AZ up to that point. And he consistenly won in Denver (in part because of his leadership).

Jay has been a loser his whole football career. He was a loser at Vandy and he's been a loser on the Broncos. Has he posted great stats that whole time? Sure. Nonetheless, the dude is a natural loser.

Wow

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 10:48 AM
Here's another point to consider:

Jake has proven he can win with ANY team. I.e. he was a winner in college, taking ASU to their one Rose Bowl in god knows how long. He was able to win in Arizona, taking them to their only playoff victory AND win in the entire time they had been in AZ up to that point. And he consistenly won in Denver (in part because of his leadership).

Jay has been a loser his whole football career. He was a loser at Vandy and he's been a loser on the Broncos. Has he posted great stats that whole time? Sure. Nonetheless, the dude is a natural loser.

I think that may be a little harsh at this point in his career....

but if he were acting like this at age 28, a lot of people would have this opinion...

what I dont think is right is people jumping on either side with comments like, "McDaniels sucks as a coach" or "Cutler is a loser", because neither of those statements are true....yet

ol number 7
03-17-2009, 10:54 AM
Are we talking about the same Jake Plummer that had a hiss fit about being traded to TB vs Houston? and retired.


He didn't balk about competition there; as there was none. He just wanted to retire. And I think he proved that after Gruden offered him a week with the whole cheerleading staff just to come down for a look see.

telluride
03-17-2009, 10:56 AM
Jake is coming out smelling like rose via all this Cutler chaos.

ol number 7
03-17-2009, 11:02 AM
Jake is coming out smelling like rose via all this Cutler chaos.

As Al Davis say's "just win baby" remember Cutler in his macho moments talking about Rivers. Then he goes to SD and lays down for the Chargers.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 11:04 AM
Are we talking about the same Jake Plummer that had a hiss fit about being traded to TB vs Houston? and retired.

I would LOVE to see you prove that he threw a "hissy fit." Good luck, cause it aint gonna happen.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 11:05 AM
Here's another point to consider:

Jake has proven he can win with ANY team. I.e. he was a winner in college, taking ASU to their one Rose Bowl in god knows how long. He was able to win in Arizona, taking them to their only playoff victory AND win in the entire time they had been in AZ up to that point. And he consistenly won in Denver (in part because of his leadership).

Jay has been a loser his whole football career. He was a loser at Vandy and he's been a loser on the Broncos. Has he posted great stats that whole time? Sure. Nonetheless, the dude is a natural loser.

I don't know what's worse: this post, or the fact that I think you believe it.

2006 season - Plummer's 7 wins? In those games, the Broncos defense gave up, on average, 8 pts. You read that right. 8 pts. And that includes pts given up on turnovers.

2005 season - Plummer's 13 wins? In those games, the Broncos defense gave up, on average, 13 pts. And once again, that includes pts given up on turnovers.

I think most sane people would agree, Jay would certainly be a "winner" in that scenario as well.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 11:10 AM
I don't know what's worse: this post, or the fact that I think you believe it.

2006 season - Plummer's 7 wins? In those games, the Broncos defense gave up, on average, 8 pts. You read that right. 8 pts. And that includes pts given up on turnovers.

2005 season - Plummer's 13 wins? In those games, the Broncos defense gave up, on average, 13 pts. And once again, that includes pts given up on turnovers.

I think most sane people would agree, Jay would certainly be a "winner" in that scenario as well.

Thank you for agreeing that Jake was a winner. I appreciate it.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 11:12 AM
As Al Davis say's "just win baby" remember Cutler in his macho moments talking about Rivers. Then he goes to SD and lays down for the Chargers.

Chargers had the ball for 9 drives. They scored SEVEN TDs and ONE FG. They punted ONCE and turned the ball over ZERO times.

Who was it that laid down again?

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 11:13 AM
Thank you for agreeing that Jake was a winner.

Except when it mattered.

Or the defense gave up more than 14 pts.

But other than that, sure.

2KBack
03-17-2009, 11:25 AM
Except when it mattered.

Or the defense gave up more than 14 pts.

But other than that, sure.

So defense can be an excuse for cutler, but not for Plummer.

Look all things being equal, with a defense both Cutler and Plummer would win games, without a Defense neither of them win games.

The difference is, Plummer was likable.

Well that and there is resentments that instead of fixing an increasingly flawed defense, Shanhan decided to put resources into the offense. Though that is the fault of an old regime and not Cutler.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 11:31 AM
So defense can be an excuse for cutler, but not for Plummer.

Look all things being equal, with a defense both Cutler and Plummer would win games, without a Defense neither of them win games.

That's not true. Plummer needed his defense to hold teams under 14 or so and force turnovers. Cutler needs his defense to somewhat consistently hold teams under 24 or so. Turnovers would be a bonus but not a need.

There's a big difference there.

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 11:37 AM
Plummer's still butthurt that Cutler was drafted. The evidence of that fact is how consistently he disses the Broncos with every opportunity that arises.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 11:37 AM
That's not true. Plummer needed his defense to hold teams under 14 or so and force turnovers. Cutler needs his defense to somewhat consistently hold teams under 24 or so. Turnovers would be a bonus but not a need.

There's a big difference there.

So I guess what you're saying is that Plummer was a winner and Cutler is still a loser, no matter how you slice it - thanks

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 11:40 AM
Plummer's still butthurt that Cutler was drafted. The evidence of that fact is how consistently he disses the Broncos with every opportunity that arises.

Right, he's been baggin on them left and right. Umm, I guess two interviews - one where he says he smiled when Shanny was fired and one where the interview is about the Cards in the SB (but the interviewer brings up the Broncos), really shows that Jake has a big axe to grind.

Next.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 11:42 AM
Plummer's still butthurt that Cutler was drafted. The evidence of that fact is how consistently he disses the Broncos with every opportunity that arises.

Cutler is making Plummer seem like the most even keeled employee of all time with the childish crap he is pulling now

Popps
03-17-2009, 11:56 AM
Cutler is making Plummer seem like the most even keeled employee of all time with the childish crap he is pulling now

No, see... refusing to play for your teammates and pouting is an admirable quality.

You should really choose to hitch your wagon to someone who doesn't want you.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 11:57 AM
So I guess what you're saying is that Plummer was a winner and Cutler is still a loser, no matter how you slice it - thanks

Plummer's record with AZ = 34-58.....

so no

TonyR
03-17-2009, 12:01 PM
No, see... refusing to play for your teammates and pouting is an admirable quality.


What's really mind boggling about this whole thing is that it's only a drama because Jay Cutler is making it a drama. If Jay would have just gone about his business and kept his complaints to himself from day 1 this story wouldn't be dominating the national NFL news and our team and QB wouldn't look so bad right now. But somehow this is Josh McDaniels' fault.

DenverBrit
03-17-2009, 12:02 PM
Cutler is making Plummer seem like the most even keeled employee of all time with the childish crap he is pulling now

His persona is turning out to be more like Griese.....but without the winning personality. ;D

barryr
03-17-2009, 12:06 PM
What's really mind boggling about this whole thing is that it's only a drama because Jay Cutler is making it a drama. If Jay would have just gone about his business and kept his complaints to himself from day 1 this story wouldn't be dominating the national NFL news and our team and QB wouldn't look so bad right now. But somehow this is Josh McDaniels' fault.


Agreed. It's been Cutler and his agent making this public from day one. It was even Cutler calling Mortensen at ESPN to tell him he wasn't showing up at the meeting and feeling unwanted. But somehow people are siding with Cutler despite his unprofessionalism and has been noted, many QB's have been treated far worse than what Cutler thinks he has, McNabb in particular, yet don't whine to the press for weeks and demand trades.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 12:09 PM
Plummer's record with AZ = 34-58.....

so no

Oh, got it - sorry:

Plummer, winner with Broncos
Cutler, loser with Broncos

Plummer, winner with ASU
Cutler, loser with Vandy

Now I see. Thanks

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:12 PM
Some douche named DbrlueU Neg-repped me.... FOR POSTING THE STORY!

Hilarious!

He's mad at me because someone else wrote an article.

ROFL!


I friggin' love this place.

DenverBrit
03-17-2009, 12:13 PM
Some douche named DbrlueU Neg-repped me.... FOR POSTING THE STORY!

Hilarious!

He's mad at me because someone else wrote an article.

ROFL!


I friggin' love this place.

He shot the messenger. Hilarious!

Popps
03-17-2009, 12:14 PM
Plummer's record with AZ = 34-58.....

so no

Wait, I thought we couldn't blame QBs if they were on bad teams? Remember, Jay didn't make the playoffs because of his team.

Plummer was on the dictionary definition of a bad team, so he didn't make the playoffs, either.

Oh, wait... he did, and actually won a playoff game.

My bad.

TonyR
03-17-2009, 12:20 PM
Oh, wait... he did, and actually won a playoff game.


Good point. And let me repeat for those who didn't catch it: he both MADE the playoffs and WON a playoff game! And believe me, I'm no Plummer guy. I'm just tired of all the excuses for Jay.

TheReverend
03-17-2009, 12:21 PM
Some douche named DbrlueU Neg-repped me.... FOR POSTING THE STORY!

Hilarious!

He's mad at me because someone else wrote an article.

ROFL!


I friggin' love this place.

That's my anonymous posting handle.

Spider
03-17-2009, 12:24 PM
Jay vs Jake debate ? priceless ;D

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 12:39 PM
Wait, I thought we couldn't blame QBs if they were on bad teams? Remember, Jay didn't make the playoffs because of his team.

Plummer was on the dictionary definition of a bad team, so he didn't make the playoffs, either.

Oh, wait... he did, and actually won a playoff game.

My bad.

Good point. And let me repeat for those who didn't catch it: he both MADE the playoffs and WON a playoff game! And believe me, I'm no Plummer guy. I'm just tired of all the excuses for Jay.

Plummer was starting with AZ for 6 years and had one playoff win. Cutler's been starting for two years.

Oh yeah, and that great year that Plummer led AZ to the playoffs? His numbers that year:

59% completion percentage
17 TDs
20 INTs
12 fumbles

And his numbers in the playoffs:

42-77 54.5% completion rate
2 TDs
4 INTs
2 fumbles

Let's not pretend that Plummer "led" anybody to anything good there.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 12:49 PM
To further illustrate my point:

In that one playoff win, the AZ defense had 4 sacks, 3 INTs and only gave up 7 pts to the Cowboys. But it was definitely all because of Jake.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 01:01 PM
To further illustrate my point:

In that one playoff win, the AZ defense had 4 sacks, 3 INTs and only gave up 7 pts to the Cowboys. But it was definitely all because of Jake.

Oh, got it - whenever your defense plays well, it doesn't matter who you have under center. Brilliant.

Go tell that to the Ravens.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 01:04 PM
Oh, got it - whenever your defense plays well, it doesn't matter who you have under center. Brilliant.

Go tell that to the Ravens.

When your defense gives up only 7 pts and forces 3 turnovers, it doesn't.

TheReverend
03-17-2009, 01:06 PM
Oh, got it - whenever your defense plays well, it doesn't matter who you have under center. Brilliant.

Go tell that to the Ravens.

Trent Dilfer's ring says hi...

Bronx33
03-17-2009, 01:07 PM
Jay vs Jake debate ? priceless ;D

That is funny.

Popps
03-17-2009, 01:09 PM
Jay vs Jake debate ? priceless ;D

You're welcome.

:thanku:

Bronx33
03-17-2009, 01:10 PM
Some douche named DbrlueU Neg-repped me.... FOR POSTING THE STORY!

Hilarious!

He's mad at me because someone else wrote an article.

ROFL!


I friggin' love this place.


DbrlueU got me once or twice for no reason too he don't talk much but he enjoys neg rep for some reason.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 01:10 PM
When your defense gives up only 7 pts and forces 3 turnovers, it doesn't.

Oh, so you're saying Cutler should have never even been drafted then because the Denver defense was so great and why waste a 1st rounder on a position that doesn't matter given our awesome defense. Got it.

Look this is fun and all but every way you slice it (and you really are a master at slicing), Jay has a losing record with Denver and Jake will always have a winning record

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 01:21 PM
Oh, so you're saying Cutler should have never even been drafted then because the Denver defense was so great and why waste a 1st rounder on a position that doesn't matter given our awesome defense. Got it.

I never said that.

Now if you have a defense that is definitely going to be awesome and hold teams under 10 pts and force turnovers consistently, then yes, the QB isn't as important. But this was NOT the case in Denver. Just because their defense was better then than now doesn't mean they were on the Ravens or Steelers level.

Bronco Yoda
03-17-2009, 01:32 PM
Plummer is class act compared to the way Cutler is acting. The drafting of Cutler was a larger slap in the face to Jake, then any potential trade would have been for Jay.

I will agree with that

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Right, he's been baggin on them left and right. Umm, I guess two interviews - one where he says he smiled when Shanny was fired and one where the interview is about the Cards in the SB (but the interviewer brings up the Broncos), really shows that Jake has a big axe to grind.

Next.

Considering that he's been retired for two years, it's amazing that he gets as many opportunities for face time with the media as he still gets. Yes, he does still have a big axe to grind.

Next.

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 01:56 PM
Cutler is making Plummer seem like the most even keeled employee of all time with the childish crap he is pulling now

Haven't seen Cutler flip off the fans yet... except maybe figuratively.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 01:59 PM
Haven't seen Cutler flip off the fans yet... except maybe figuratively.

I can't imagine what Cutler would do if the fans booed him at a home game WHEN HE HAD A WINNING RECORD AND WAS WINNING THE DIVISION...

I could seriously see him yelling at the fans and going to the locker room....seriously....

Plummer told the fans, with his finger, that this was his team and to get off his back...

Cutler just skips town

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 02:06 PM
I can't imagine what Cutler would do if the fans booed him at a home game WHEN HE HAD A WINNING RECORD AND WAS WINNING THE DIVISION...

I could seriously see him yelling at the fans and going to the locker room....seriously....


I watched the Buffalo and Oakland games this year (which both fit your criteria) and I saw no such thing.

vancejohnson82
03-17-2009, 02:10 PM
I watched the Buffalo and Oakland games this year (which both fit your criteria) and I saw no such thing.

he wasnt being booed even remotely close to the way Jake was....he was being booed during WINS

no, all I saw was a kid go to the bench and sulk....no fire...which is a result of his youth, not his personality (in my opinion) ....but my opinion is lookiing like it may be wrong in that respect...

Popps
03-17-2009, 02:12 PM
Plummer was starting with AZ for 6 years and had one playoff win. Cutler's been starting for two years.

Oh yeah, and that great year that Plummer led AZ to the playoffs? His numbers that year:
.

Oh, wait... I thought the topic was did Jake Plummer win a playoff game on a bad team.

Now you want to talk about fantasy football stats?

Tell you what, you decide what we're talking about and get back to me. I could have sworn the topic was...

Jay can't win a playoff game because his team was bad?

Jake won a playoff game on as bad of a franchise as you'll find, then played in a few more, including another win in Denver.


So, we weren't talking about fantasy football, we were talking about wins.

Popps
03-17-2009, 02:16 PM
Again, it's really sort of pathetic to watch people snivel for a QB that basically wants nothing to do with their team... and hasn't even put a winning season together.

Jay Cutler hates you, people. Go ahead, beg for him to come back. Maybe he'll consider it.


ROFL!

Popps
03-17-2009, 02:17 PM
Haven't seen Cutler flip off the fans yet... except maybe figuratively.

Oh, you just got the ultimate DOUBLE flip-off, Blue. He wants no part of your team.

He's too much of a "gunslinger."

Hilarious!

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 02:23 PM
Tell you what, you decide what we're talking about and get back to me. I could have sworn the topic was...

Jay can't win a playoff game because his team was bad?

Jake won a playoff game on as bad of a franchise as you'll find

The franchise was HISTORICALLY bad, but it took a tremendous effort from the DEFENSE that day to win the game. History had nothing to do with it. Jake was one of the worst performing Cardinals on the field that day....to the tune of 2 picks.

Funny how that trend also followed for his one playoff win in Denver. The defense and special teams saved him and helped people forget just how bad he himself played in that game.

Popps
03-17-2009, 02:28 PM
Jay's career passer rating in Denver - 87
Jake's career passer rating in Denver - 84

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 02:48 PM
[QUOTE=Beantown Bronco;2338969]Jake was one of the worst performing Cardinals on the field that day....to the tune of 2 picks.QUOTE]

Because we all know that if you have 2 picks and win your playoff game, you really didn't win the game.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 02:51 PM
Jay's career passer rating in Denver - 87
Jake's career passer rating in Denver - 84

Passer rating? Really?

Popps
03-17-2009, 02:55 PM
Passer rating? Really?

I dunno. Were we talking fantasy football or wins.

You switched the subject on us.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 03:02 PM
I dunno. Were we talking fantasy football or wins.

You switched the subject on us.

No I didn't. Since post #1, I was simply pointing out that "wins" is a deceptive stat (much like the QB rating) and can't simply be credited to the QB. Too many other factors (including 44 other guys) play into that category.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 03:08 PM
No I didn't. Since post #1, I was simply pointing out that "wins" is a deceptive stat (much like the QB rating) and can't simply be credited to the QB. Too many other factors (including 44 other guys) play into that category.

I guess you could make the case that interceptions is a deceptive stat too, right? Like, there are bunch of people who play into an interception - the O-line, the secondary, the WR's running the route, anyone who might have tipped the ball, the offensive coordinator and the playcalling.

If we're going to throw all of Jake's wins out the window, might as well throw out the INT's too.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 03:10 PM
If we're going to throw all of Jake's wins out the window, might as well throw out the INT's too.

Sure, but only if we can add back in all the gimme INT's that were dropped by defenders.

Pontius Pirate
03-17-2009, 03:12 PM
Sure, but only if we can add back in all the gimme INT's that were dropped by defenders.

Which I'm sure is about a fraction of the balls dropped by Ashley Lelie in that time period.

Popps
03-17-2009, 03:29 PM
Sure, but only if we can add back in all the gimme INT's that were dropped by defenders.

Oh, we're talking fantasy football again?

That sounds like the ultimate fantasy.

"gimmie INTs"

Cutler didn't throw any of those?

Sounds like a pretty solid statistical category. ::)

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 03:56 PM
Oh, you just got the ultimate DOUBLE flip-off, Blue. He wants no part of your team.

He's too much of a "gunslinger."

Hilarious!

I think it's purely business, Popps. McD gave his agent an excuse to make a try for more $$ (redoing his contract either with Denver or somewhere else) and he's taking it.

Popps
03-17-2009, 04:03 PM
Too many other factors (including 44 other guys) play into that category.

So, that would be true for losses too, right?

So, what would you say the top 3 categories are for measuring a QB?

Popps
03-17-2009, 04:04 PM
I think it's purely business, Popps. McD gave his agent an excuse to make a try for more $$ (redoing his contract either with Denver or somewhere else) and he's taking it.

:giggle:

So, that's like someone leaving the door unlocked and someone else robbing their home.

"hey... they invited me to rob them, therefore.... it's a right and just thing to do!"

Oh man.

TheReverend
03-17-2009, 04:07 PM
:giggle:

So, that's like someone leaving the door unlocked and someone else robbing their home.

"hey... they invited me to rob them, therefore.... it's a right and just thing to do!"

Oh man.

I love your new tie.

Popps
03-17-2009, 04:21 PM
I love your new tie.

Thanks.

TheReverend
03-17-2009, 04:24 PM
Thanks.

You're welcome, Popps. Have a good day.

rbackfactory80
03-17-2009, 04:48 PM
2005 team was far from all world but they played hard and smart, something Denver hasn't done since Jake. His teammates liked and believed in him. That team definitely overachieved.

Blueflame
03-17-2009, 04:50 PM
:giggle:

So, that's like someone leaving the door unlocked and someone else robbing their home.

"hey... they invited me to rob them, therefore.... it's a right and just thing to do!"

Oh man.

It's not like that at all.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 04:55 PM
So, that would be true for losses too, right?

So, what would you say the top 3 categories are for measuring a QB?

Height, weight and penis length.

Beantown Bronco
03-17-2009, 04:56 PM
Oh, we're talking fantasy football again?

That sounds like the ultimate fantasy.

"gimmie INTs"

Cutler didn't throw any of those?

Sounds like a pretty solid statistical category. ::)

It was a sarcastic response to this sarcastic statement by PP:

If we're going to throw all of Jake's wins out the window, might as well throw out the INT's too.

How on Earth you took that seriously.....

Popps
03-17-2009, 06:24 PM
You're welcome, Popps. Have a good day.

Back at ya.

Have a green beer on me.