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View Full Version : Rivers: McDaniels sabotaged credibility in the locker room with Leach/Paxton swapping


montrose
03-16-2009, 09:01 AM
I've spoken to several Broncos players who believe that McDaniels sabotaged his credibility in the locker room when he cut long-snapper Mike Leach and signed former Patriots long-snapper Lonnie Paxton to a $2 million contract.

Leach has proven to be among the most reliable snappers in the NFL, and replacing him seemed completely unnecessary and out of step with the message that a new coach should be sending to his team.

The players who were drafted or signed by the previous coach want to believe that the new coach will judge them based on their ability to perform on the field. But when McDaniels got rid of Leach it sent a very clear message that no matter how well the veterans performed, the new coach would cut them and pay more money to get players with whom he was more familiar.

http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/trade.cutler.denver.2.960109.html

Irish Stout
03-16-2009, 09:04 AM
I agree... I've liked McD and X's moves this off season, but I have not been able to understand this one at all. It definitely sends a signal (along with the Cassel fiasco) that McD is saying he'd be more comfortable with his old guys than whatever the Broncos have... which in turn sends the signal that this coach may not quite be comfortable in the role he is supposed to be playing with this team.

Rohirrim
03-16-2009, 09:06 AM
Yeah, this one still has me puzzled.

lex
03-16-2009, 09:07 AM
I've spoken to several Broncos players who believe that McDaniels sabotaged his credibility in the locker room when he cut long-snapper Mike Leach and signed former Patriots long-snapper Lonnie Paxton to a $2 million contract.

Leach has proven to be among the most reliable snappers in the NFL, and replacing him seemed completely unnecessary and out of step with the message that a new coach should be sending to his team.

The players who were drafted or signed by the previous coach want to believe that the new coach will judge them based on their ability to perform on the field. But when McDaniels got rid of Leach it sent a very clear message that no matter how well the veterans performed, the new coach would cut them and pay more money to get players with whom he was more familiar.

http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/trade.cutler.denver.2.960109.html

Again, nice work, Pat. Just keep pretending that Jay is the one who is ****ed up.

Man-Goblin
03-16-2009, 09:07 AM
I can roll with this theory. Really, the ONLY public negative comments about McDaniels from a player, other than Cutler, came from Stokely regarding Leach's release.

Gort
03-16-2009, 09:08 AM
i'm on McD's side regarding McJayGate, but i also think that the Leach/Paxton swap is a completely legit issue for the rest of the locker room to be concerned about. there was something about it that rubbed me wrong.

RMT
03-16-2009, 09:10 AM
and leach was cheaper.

Kaylore
03-16-2009, 09:10 AM
This is one of the moves that I didn't agree with. And I could see why the players would take issue with it. Leach is a really good guy and he plays hard, was a good long snapper and a decent Tight end. Paxton is a team leader but he doesn't have Leach's covering ability or his ability to actually play another position. It was a BS move.

That said, I have trouble believing the entire locker room is ready to mutiny over it. I am not surprised that more veterans have spoken out against Leach leaving than Cutler, though. If you guys only knew...

montrose
03-16-2009, 09:10 AM
The only logical reason I could justify for the move is that McDaniels would rather keep an emergency guard active on gameday versus an emergency tight end.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-16-2009, 09:11 AM
i'm on McD's side regarding McJayGate, but i also think that the Leach/Paxton swap is a completely legit issue for the rest of the locker room to be concerned about. there was something about it that rubbed me wrong.

I'm with you 100% on that. Absolutely spot on.

Drek
03-16-2009, 09:15 AM
The only logical reason I could justify for the move is that McDaniels would rather keep an emergency guard active on gameday versus an emergency tight end.

Or that McDaniels knows Paxton brings the kind of locker room character and mentality he wants to instill.

Leach probably would, sure. But he knows Paxton will, and its at a position where even an "overpay" is peanuts compared to other players.

That and Leach is near the end of his career whereas Paxton is three years younger and therefore better suited to being here through the entire rebuilding effort.

There are a lot of reasons for it. I'm sure guys like Stokley don't like it because Leach was their friend and they, as similarly second tier veterans feel threatened themselves, but thats the reality of any coaching changeover. Anyone who takes issue with it doesn't belong on the team.

SoDak Bronco
03-16-2009, 09:18 AM
This was a great tone that McD set for the Broncos. I wonder why guys have a tough time respecting what he has done. We've become a freaking disgrace, thanks Bowlen you friggin idiot

USMCBladerunner
03-16-2009, 09:20 AM
The only logical reason I could justify for the move is that McDaniels would rather keep an emergency guard active on gameday versus an emergency tight end.

That's the only thing that makes sense to me either, and in my mind, that isn't a significant enough reason to make the swap.

The proof is in the pudding, but it's the weirdest of all the moves.

worm
03-16-2009, 09:21 AM
Or that McDaniels knows Paxton brings the kind of locker room character and mentality he wants to instill.

Leach probably would, sure. But he knows Paxton will, and its at a position where even an "overpay" is peanuts compared to other players.

That and Leach is near the end of his career whereas Paxton is three years younger and therefore better suited to being here through the entire rebuilding effort.

There are a lot of reasons for it. I'm sure guys like Stokley don't like it because Leach was their friend and they, as similarly second tier veterans feel threatened themselves, but thats the reality of any coaching changeover. Anyone who takes issue with it doesn't belong on the team.

Dude. Please.

I agree that Josh wanted him more for the reasons that you outlined here (as has been said many times) over needing a backup guard.

However, beyond being a friend of Leech's I think EVERY player wants to feel that they will be evaluated for job retention based on what they do on the field. People want to feel that it is more important 'how you play' than 'who you know'.

Josh has set precedents that that is not the case.

Smiling Assassin27
03-16-2009, 09:23 AM
players play. they do not get paid to criticize personnel moves, let alone talk to the media about the ones they don't agree with. the move was two fold: first, it established a culture that change is coming to bronco-land. the players can either embrace full-scale changes and a new culture, or they can leave. second, paxton has super bowl rings and has snapped for some of the biggest kicks in nfl history--he's shown his mettle and worth. leach is good, but paxton is prolly better as a snapper and as a utility player.

this isn't shanny's team anymore, and the players need to understand this immediately. if they feel like they will be cut for someone better, they will either improve or fail. either way, mcd's been given the same latitude that mike shanahan was given when he came in. shanny cleaned out the dead wood but luckily had plenty in the cupboard when he got there on both sides of the ball, and special teams.

SoDak Bronco
03-16-2009, 09:24 AM
Or that McDaniels knows Paxton brings the kind of locker room character and mentality he wants to instill.

Leach probably would, sure. But he knows Paxton will, and its at a position where even an "overpay" is peanuts compared to other players.

That and Leach is near the end of his career whereas Paxton is three years younger and therefore better suited to being here through the entire rebuilding effort.

There are a lot of reasons for it. I'm sure guys like Stokley don't like it because Leach was their friend and they, as similarly second tier veterans feel threatened themselves, but thats the reality of any coaching changeover. Anyone who takes issue with it doesn't belong on the team.


Honestly, how are you justifying this move??? You are sending the wrong message by overpaying a LS and releasing a guy that was a great in the lockerroom. And three years younger, it is Long Snapping who the hell cares, Leach signed a 3 year contract with the Cards, he can play atleast 5 more years. This is just another example of MCD trying to get "his guys" in a position that didn't need to be touched. We have so many holes on this team but he decides to sign a LS, to a record signing bonus contract. Also, QB we were fine for the next 5 years, and he has fugged that all up now.

bronco militia
03-16-2009, 09:25 AM
I guess there is more than one immature player on the roster

fontaine
03-16-2009, 09:26 AM
Every new head coach does it from Parcells (when he was still coaching) on down.

If a player has a problem with it then they can get the hell out of Denver, and that goes twice for the defense.

colonelbeef
03-16-2009, 09:27 AM
I agree... I've liked McD and X's moves this off season, but I have not been able to understand this one at all. It definitely sends a signal (along with the Cassel fiasco) that McD is saying he'd be more comfortable with his old guys than whatever the Broncos have... which in turn sends the signal that this coach may not quite be comfortable in the role he is supposed to be playing with this team.

Great post, and spot on.

Drek
03-16-2009, 09:49 AM
Dude. Please.

I agree that Josh wanted him more for the reasons that you outlined here (as has been said many times) over needing a backup guard.

However, beyond being a friend of Leech's I think EVERY player wants to feel that they will be evaluated for job retention based on what they do on the field. People want to feel that it is more important 'how you play' than 'who you know'.

Josh has set precedents that that is not the case.

Lonnie Paxton is one of the best long snappers in the league, FYI. He's been long snapping basically his entire life. I'd personally say he's actually an upgrade over Leach, as hard as it might be for some around here to believe that.

Is it an upgrade worth the $1M signing bonus? Probably not, but thats why the other things come into play.

Any veteran saying this is a "double standard" that proves its about who you know and not how you play is just someone scared about losing their job. Stokley immediately comes to mind, since Gaffney knows the offense and is in prime position to take his job. I'm willing to bet that if he isn't the only source for this article, he's one of the primary sources.

A lot of the vets on this roster got real comfortable never having to compete for their jobs with Shanahan. Now that the situation has been turned on its ear and they aren't the pets of the coaching staff suddenly they're crying foul.

Rock Chalk
03-16-2009, 09:53 AM
The only logical reason I could justify for the move is that McDaniels would rather keep an emergency guard active on gameday versus an emergency tight end.

That does make sense seeing as how McD doesnt really use TEs very much. Still, Leech has to be one of the best long snappers in the NFL and was cheaper so I agree with most here in that the move was odd.

I do however, understand that for the most part, coaches want guys they are familiar with. Kubiak did the same thing in Houston, and most coaches in a new job will do it too. You cant blame McDaniels for doing what everyone else is doing I dont think. That doesnt mean its always the best decision, as coaches can sometimes let familiarity take precedence over skill, but you really cant blame him for doing what they all do.

TheReverend
03-16-2009, 09:54 AM
Lonnie Paxton is one of the best long snappers in the league, FYI. He's been long snapping basically his entire life. I'd personally say he's actually an upgrade over Leach, as hard as it might be for some around here to believe that.

Is it an upgrade worth the $1M signing bonus? Probably not, but thats why the other things come into play.

Any veteran saying this is a "double standard" that proves its about who you know and not how you play is just someone scared about losing their job. Stokley immediately comes to mind, since Gaffney knows the offense and is in prime position to take his job. I'm willing to bet that if he isn't the only source for this article, he's one of the primary sources.

A lot of the vets on this roster got real comfortable never having to compete for their jobs with Shanahan. Now that the situation has been turned on its ear and they aren't the pets of the coaching staff suddenly they're crying foul.

The sentence in bold is hilarious!

theAPAOps5
03-16-2009, 09:57 AM
Got to say this has more of in impact than I thought and it sucks. It was a bad move by McD. I still think he can be a great coach but obviously he is going to alienate veterans on this team with moves like this. That and he obviously is not communicating something right to Jay Cutler. I think that you have to take what both sides have said and find a middle. Both are jockying to be right in this and both probably have valid points.

But the time has come to either say Jay Cutler you are our guy we apologize for how we handled the trade proposal.

or

Jay we will do our best to honor your trade request as we feel this situation is too fractured.

But its time to end it, STAT.

Call me wishy washy all you want as I have been a staunch Cutler critic in this. I still think he needs to grow up but obviously he is not getting the point the Broncos say they are going to make.

Broncos_OTM
03-16-2009, 10:01 AM
Lonnie Paxton is one of the best long snappers in the league, FYI. He's been long snapping basically his entire life. I'd personally say he's actually an upgrade over Leach, as hard as it might be for some around here to believe that.

Is it an upgrade worth the $1M signing bonus? Probably not, but thats why the other things come into play.

Any veteran saying this is a "double standard" that proves its about who you know and not how you play is just someone scared about losing their job. Stokley immediately comes to mind, since Gaffney knows the offense and is in prime position to take his job. I'm willing to bet that if he isn't the only source for this article, he's one of the primary sources.

A lot of the vets on this roster got real comfortable never having to compete for their jobs with Shanahan. Now that the situation has been turned on its ear and they aren't the pets of the coaching staff suddenly they're crying foul.
How do you compete for a job in march. Please i would love to hear the reasoning on this. It wasnt broke. DONT FIX IT. fix the ****ing Defense

cutthemdown
03-16-2009, 10:02 AM
Leach was so small he was getting manhandled on coverage so I'm not surprised Mcdaniels went with a bigger player he knows well. Even crying about a long snapper is a joke. Obviously the Broncos were a very soft team. They complain and cry about not getting cake before practice.

Cito Pelon
03-16-2009, 10:23 AM
Yup, it was a puzzler. But Leach wasn't cut, and Leach landed on his feet pretty good in AZ. You're gonna see this type of thing with a new coach, of course he wants his guys he's comfortable with. It happens all the time. Life goes on.

And of course you're gonna see players worry about it. Life goes on for these guys earning a league minimum $250k/yr for a rookie. Maybe they should shut the **** up and play if they want to play for a once-proud franchise like Denver that is trying to be proud again.

Popps
03-16-2009, 10:40 AM
Apparently, Paxton has been a model teammate, a top performer at his position and a guy familiar with the climate McDaniels is trying to create.

I don't believe that any real professional was "shocked" because a staff came in and brought with them a long-snapper they were more comfortable with.

Give me a break, folks.

c_lazy_r
03-16-2009, 10:40 AM
I'm so tired of hearing this BS...these guys are professional athletes that get paid millions of dollars to play freakin football. They need to shutup and play for whoever the owner hires to coach em. Period.

broncosteven
03-16-2009, 12:10 PM
The issue is that Paxton is MickyD's ear in the lockerroom. Then he "listened" to trades for the current PRO-BOWL QB so he could have another known guy at QB.

The rebuilding is going to be tough. If they can turn it around they will need to know who is complaining about not getting cake before practice, who thinks the new HC is a tool, who actually works hard and stays after practice to get better, who invited his teammates to workout together in Atlanta over the offseason.

Some of that cannot be found in meetings.

I am getting that this regime is even more a dictatorship than Shanny's was. That is fine if they win, really ugly if they lose.

Cito Pelon
03-16-2009, 12:17 PM
The issue is that Paxton is MickyD's ear in the lockerroom. Then he "listened" to trades for the current PRO-BOWL QB so he could have another known guy at QB.

The rebuilding is going to be tough. If they can turn it around they will need to know who is complaining about not getting cake before practice, who thinks the new HC is a tool, who actually works hard and stays after practice to get better, who invited his teammates to workout together in Atlanta over the offseason.

Some of that cannot be found in meetings.

I am getting that this regime is even more a dictatorship than Shanny's was. That is fine if they win, really ugly if they lose.

That was pretty interesting.

SureShot
03-16-2009, 12:27 PM
That said, I have trouble believing the entire locker room is ready to mutiny over it. I am not surprised that more veterans have spoken out against Leach leaving than Cutler, though. If you guys only knew...

Thats weak.

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 12:37 PM
I've spoken to several Broncos players who believe that McDaniels sabotaged his credibility in the locker room when he cut long-snapper Mike Leach and signed former Patriots long-snapper Lonnie Paxton to a $2 million contract.

Leach has proven to be among the most reliable snappers in the NFL, and replacing him seemed completely unnecessary and out of step with the message that a new coach should be sending to his team.

The players who were drafted or signed by the previous coach want to believe that the new coach will judge them based on their ability to perform on the field. But when McDaniels got rid of Leach it sent a very clear message that no matter how well the veterans performed, the new coach would cut them and pay more money to get players with whom he was more familiar.

http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/trade.cutler.denver.2.960109.html

BINGO!

Josh is drunk with power ... this is yet another confirmation of that. The Paxton signing was overpaying nonsense. And it very well may have led to the Cutler problem, in that Belichick reportedly (some reports say) didn't like it and therefore bypassed the Denver/Tampa/Detroit deal to take a lesser offer for Cassel.

You can't blame Josh ... he's just taking what Pat gives him, and he's on a drunken spending and power spree. You really gotta blame the Gutless Drunk for giving this kid all of Shanahan's Power at once.

Bowlen lied to Jay about not changing the offense, and he lied to all of us when he canned Jim Goodman and said Xanders would be a "traditional" GM.

Can't balme It's the fault o

Drek
03-16-2009, 12:42 PM
The sentence in bold is hilarious!

Because its true?

At least do your research before you sound off like an idiot just because we disagree on the Cutler/McDaniels deal.

Paxton has long snapped at every single level of football he's played in his life. Where's the punch line.

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 12:46 PM
That said, I have trouble believing the entire locker room is ready to mutiny over it. I am not surprised that more veterans have spoken out against Leach leaving than Cutler, though. If you guys only knew...

Huh? What's that supposed to mean, "if we only knew"? Please don't infer you have inside sources ...

What I know ... what's GLARINGLY obvious here .... is that this 32-year old coach's-son kid-coordinator with ZERO front office experience has been given full power, and too-high a free-agent spending limit. And now our star quarterback is gone, something Josh could obviosuly have averted.

Josh is in over his head, and he's drunk with power and a too-high free agent spending limit. That's painfully obvious to all but the most authoritative-minded Josh apologists.

Face it, guys ... Jay is likely gone, and Josh clearly could've avoided that result.
.

TheReverend
03-16-2009, 12:51 PM
Because its true?

At least do your research before you sound off like an idiot just because we disagree on the Cutler/McDaniels deal.

Paxton has long snapped at every single level of football he's played in his life. Where's the punch line.

No. Because it's 100% irrelevant. Way to be a dick, though.

cutthemdown
03-16-2009, 12:52 PM
Huh? What's that supposed to mean, "if we only knew"?

He could mean what I have known for a long time. That Cutler doesn't have a lot of friends and generally isn't liked a whole lot by the rest of the team.

When Jay was drafted a good friend of mine whose sister was going to school at Vanderbilt said that Cutler has a reputation for being an arrogant prick.

Then we heard some stories about him being a prick after he got to Denver.

Then we see him mope and generally look like a baby at certain times during different games.

Now he tries this im hurt and need a big new contract to make me happy or trade me B.S

Broncos4tw
03-16-2009, 01:06 PM
It's not puzzling at all, I don't understand why people are so confused about all this. McD is out of his element. He is a very young head coach. He is trying to get into a comfort zone, it's pretty damned clear to me. Players, coaches, tried to get the QB.. hell, I'd bet he bring over the entire Pats team, if he could.

It's why he doesn't care about Jay, or the long snapper, or anyone else. He so far, is the most immature person on our team, imo. He has this little happy image in his head of what our team should be, and he could give a crap less about the actual players or image our team currently has.

Drek
03-16-2009, 01:12 PM
No. Because it's 100% irrelevant. Way to be a dick, though.

I wouldn't disagree that I'm a dick, but people here throw a fit over a 35 year old long snapper being replaced by a younger, better, SB winner at his position so I don't see how his past career is irrelevant.

People like to bitch around here without knowing the facts. You go ask Pats fans and not a one of them was happy to see Paxton go. I've talked to more than my share and the consensus from them all is they can't remember a single mistake made by Paxton in his 9 years with them. Plus he's a class act. Why wouldn't McDaniels bring in a known quantity like that for what amounts to peanuts against the cap?

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 01:16 PM
He could mean what I have known for a long time. That Cutler doesn't have a lot of friends and generally isn't liked a whole lot by the rest of the team.

When Jay was drafted a good friend of mine whose sister was going to school at Vanderbilt said that Cutler has a reputation for being an arrogant prick.

Then we heard some stories about him being a prick after he got to Denver.

Then we see him mope and generally look like a baby at certain times during different games.

Now he tries this im hurt and need a big new contract to make me happy or trade me B.S

All that might be true ... Jay probably is a prick, I think that's true.

But he's OUR prick, and he deserves honesty and full disclosure about his future with the team. Heck, Nate-freaking-Webster deserves honesty about his status with the team.

Broncos4tw
03-16-2009, 01:19 PM
I wouldn't disagree that I'm a dick, but people here throw a fit over a 35 year old long snapper being replaced by a younger, better, SB winner at his position so I don't see how his past career is irrelevant.

People like to b**** around here without knowing the facts. You go ask Pats fans and not a one of them was happy to see Paxton go. I've talked to more than my share and the consensus from them all is they can't remember a single mistake made by Paxton in his 9 years with them. Plus he's a class act. Why wouldn't McDaniels bring in a known quantity like that for what amounts to peanuts against the cap?

Because there are these things called team identity and camaraderie and trust. Of which so far, McD is not fostering any of. He is in a nutshell, saying "Well, it doesn't matter if you have friends, are a great player, and are even making a small salary, I'll replace you if an old buddy can be brought in, in your place."

He is going to find it hard to lure in further talent, or get his players to play for him, if he continues that attitude.

broncolife
03-16-2009, 01:24 PM
I've spoken to several Broncos players who believe that McDaniels sabotaged his credibility in the locker room when he cut long-snapper Mike Leach and signed former Patriots long-snapper Lonnie Paxton to a $2 million contract.

Leach has proven to be among the most reliable snappers in the NFL, and replacing him seemed completely unnecessary and out of step with the message that a new coach should be sending to his team.

The players who were drafted or signed by the previous coach want to believe that the new coach will judge them based on their ability to perform on the field. But when McDaniels got rid of Leach it sent a very clear message that no matter how the new coach would cut them and pay more money to get players with whom he was more familiar.

http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/trade.cutler.denver.2.960109.html

I find it funny people who bash Cutler take issue with this and love the fact that Mcdaniels said anybody can be traded. He basically told the players anybody can be fired at anytime no matter how well they performed.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 01:35 PM
All that might be true ... Jay probably is a prick, I think that's true.

But he's OUR prick, and he deserves honesty and full disclosure about his future with the team. Heck, Nate-freaking-Webster deserves honesty about his status with the team.

Is this a one way Knife?

Cutler is saying one thing and doing another.

I was prepared to be a bronco and go forward. Meanwhile I will sell my houses. And get pretend upset over innocuous statements only a giant contract will make me feel better.

lex
03-16-2009, 01:49 PM
He could mean what I have known for a long time. That Cutler doesn't have a lot of friends and generally isn't liked a whole lot by the rest of the team.

When Jay was drafted a good friend of mine whose sister was going to school at Vanderbilt said that Cutler has a reputation for being an arrogant prick.

Then we heard some stories about him being a prick after he got to Denver.

Then we see him mope and generally look like a baby at certain times during different games.

Now he tries this im hurt and need a big new contract to make me happy or trade me B.S


I love it when people harp on the moping. Like judging people so thoroughly based on body language is infallible or something. Not everyone acts the same way in all circumstances. Therefore judging people based on body language is highly subject to misinterpretation.

Kaylore
03-16-2009, 01:54 PM
Face it, guys ... Jay is likely gone, and Josh clearly could've avoided that result.
.
Nothing McDaniels could have said would have made anything better. Cutler and Bus Cook have been planning this from the beginning. McDaniels couldn't have salvaged it because Cutler didn't want it to be salvaged. He got offended over nothing and wants to leave town? Gimme a break. Cutler wants a new deal and Cook wants a new commission. That's all that this has been about since the beginning.

broncosteven
03-16-2009, 02:01 PM
Huh? What's that supposed to mean, "if we only knew"? Please don't infer you have inside sources ...

What I know ... what's GLARINGLY obvious here .... is that this 32-year old coach's-son kid-coordinator with ZERO front office experience has been given full power, and too-high a free-agent spending limit. And now our star quarterback is gone, something Josh could obviosuly have averted.

Josh is in over his head, and he's drunk with power and a too-high free agent spending limit. That's painfully obvious to all but the most authoritative-minded Josh apologists.

Face it, guys ... Jay is likely gone, and Josh clearly could've avoided that result.
.

I am still amazed how all the sheep are following the MickyD Judas Goat around.

The guy has been an OC for 3 years. He started at OC the same year Jay came into the league.

He had the best team in football and his Offense was outcoached and out hussled the whole day in the one SB he made it to.

I hope he realizes that he needs a FG that can make a kick that his "Snow Angel" snaps to. Right now Prater is no Vinny.

Maybe he thinks we Bronco fans would love Lonnie because he did his Snow Angel act vs Oakland?

WABronco
03-16-2009, 02:01 PM
A coach wanting to bring in a former player of his? What back assward kind of world is this?

lex
03-16-2009, 02:02 PM
Nothing McDaniels could have said would have made anything better. Cutler and Bus Cook have been planning this from the beginning. McDaniels couldn't have salvaged it because Cutler didn't want it to be salvaged. He got offended over nothing and wants to leave town? Gimme a break. Cutler wants a new deal and Cook wants a new commission. That's all that this has been about since the beginning.

That would be more valid if this would have escalated sooner.

TheReverend
03-16-2009, 02:14 PM
I wouldn't disagree that I'm a dick, but people here throw a fit over a 35 year old long snapper being replaced by a younger, better, SB winner at his position so I don't see how his past career is irrelevant.

People like to b**** around here without knowing the facts. You go ask Pats fans and not a one of them was happy to see Paxton go. I've talked to more than my share and the consensus from them all is they can't remember a single mistake made by Paxton in his 9 years with them. Plus he's a class act. Why wouldn't McDaniels bring in a known quantity like that for what amounts to peanuts against the cap?

And I thought your last post that I bolded couldn't be topped!

gadlaw
03-16-2009, 02:15 PM
I completely agree with this. That long snapper business made no earthly sense and you know, people show themselves to be what they are eventually and with McFail it didn't take long to show him to be not interested in what is best for the team or what the people and fans of Denver would like to see. The long snapper crooked dealing was just the beginning and this whole asinine business of trying to trade Cutler for the one year wonder should be enough to get this guy run out of town on a rail. I'm just completely upset with how things are going and it started when that orange tanned owner fired Shanny and it's been going downhill from there. Nothing but fail.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 02:23 PM
That would be more valid if this would have escalated sooner.

Is that a Joke? He went Hand Eating Chimpanzee from the Jump. He Ran off to TN didn't return phone calls and brought in Bus Cook to be his BuFFer.

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 02:23 PM
Cutler and Bus Cook have been planning this from the beginning. McDaniels couldn't have salvaged it because Cutler didn't want it to be salvaged.
You can't be serious ... you really believe Cutler and Bus Cook were the instigators of the Lions/Broncos, Bucs/Broncos Cassel trade offers? No way Khan, we all wouldda heard about that from Day 1 if it was true, from the Broncos actually. By all accounts - even McDaniels' account - it's the exact opposite. Other teams supposedly came to Denver.

It's okay you wanna side with the team, but saying Cutler "planned this from the beginning" is just silly.

jutang
03-16-2009, 02:29 PM
Cutler's going for a new contact even if it means destroying the Broncos. McD and Xander's gave Cook the opportunity by listening to trade offers and then backing it up with... it's a business and whatever will make the team better. Cutler took it part personally, but is now approaching it with... it's a business, I was the biggest asset of this team last year, so pay me or trade me.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 02:31 PM
You can't be serious ... you really believe Cutler and Bus Cook were the instigators of the Lions/Broncos, Bucs/Broncos Cassel trade offers? No way Khan, we all wouldda heard about that from Day 1 if it was true, from the Broncos actually. By all accounts - even McDaniels' account - it's the exact opposite. Other teams supposedly came to Denver.

It's okay you wanna side with the team, but saying Cutler "planned this from the beginning" is just silly.

From the Begining of the trade talks. McDaniels has Said over and over again. We want Jay Cutler. Jay's Reply is not unless you are paying me another 20 million you don't want me. Why can't you see this? You seem to think McDaniels only lies and Cutler only speaks the truth.

TonyR
03-16-2009, 02:33 PM
...he deserves honesty and full disclosure about his future with the team.

When they decide what the future is, yes. As in, "Jay, you've just been traded to the (insert team name here)". Other than that he deserves nothing. He's getting paid very well to be an NFL QB, they owe him NOTHING other than a paycheck.

Jay's job is to show up and do what he's told. Ever since Shanahan was fired it appears he's had trouble with that job. His mind is made up.

lex
03-16-2009, 02:36 PM
Is that a Joke? He went Hand Eating Chimpanzee from the Jump. He Ran off to TN didn't return phone calls and brought in Bus Cook to be his BuFFer.

Thats been the past couple of weeks since the Broncos pursued McDaniels and lied about it. You need to get your **** together.

lex
03-16-2009, 02:37 PM
When they decide what the future is, yes. As in, "Jay, you've just been traded to the (insert team name here)". Other than that he deserves nothing. He's getting paid very well to be an NFL QB, they owe him NOTHING other than a paycheck.

Jay's job is to show up and do what he's told. Ever since Shanahan was fired it appears he's had trouble with that job. His mind is made up.

No its not.

Drek
03-16-2009, 02:39 PM
Because there are these things called team identity and camaraderie and trust. Of which so far, McD is not fostering any of. He is in a nutshell, saying "Well, it doesn't matter if you have friends, are a great player, and are even making a small salary, I'll replace you if an old buddy can be brought in, in your place."

He is going to find it hard to lure in further talent, or get his players to play for him, if he continues that attitude.

The team identity is being changed. I don't see where McDaniels passed any falsehoods off to Leach. Camaraderie? More like veterans fearing for their own necks now that papa bear Shanahan isn't around to keep them safe.

What he's saying is that he knows someone who is a better player at the position than what we had, who was the STs captain on a multiple SB winner, and who brings the kind of identity and attitude he wants to foster in Denver.

Much ado about nothing here. Lot of chicken littles pissed because a fan favorite in Leech was let walk for a younger player who is at least his equal, likely his superior, on the football field.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 02:43 PM
Thats been the past couple of weeks since the Broncos pursued McDaniels and lied about it. You need to get your **** together.

Get your **** Together. The Broncos Pursued Cassell and did not get a trade since that time Mcdaniels has over and over again repeatedly said we will not trade Cutler. Cutler has pretended to get infuriated over percieved slights. He has lied about saying he was ready to come back and play only to be selling his house at the same time.

McDaniels has not done anything wrong. He is not ditching calls, flying out of town, avoiding meetings, or putting a buffer between him and Cutler.

He did look at Trading Cutler. And Cutler is so mad about he he wants to be traded!

ZONA
03-16-2009, 02:47 PM
Again, nice work, Pat. Just keep pretending that Jay is the one who is ****ed up.

Give it a ****in rest already you moron. With 50 posts about Cutler going around you still have to bitch and whine about Jay in a long snapper thread. GD, go get in a fight or something and get it out already.

lex
03-16-2009, 02:49 PM
Get your **** Together. The Broncos Pursued Cassell and did not get a trade since that time Mcdaniels has over and over again repeatedly said we will not trade Cutler. Cutler has pretended to get infuriated over percieved slights. He has lied about saying he was ready to come back and play only to be selling his house at the same time.

McDaniels has not done anything wrong. He is not ditching calls, flying out of town, avoiding meetings, or putting a buffer between him and Cutler.

He did look at Trading Cutler. And Cutler is so mad about he he wants to be traded!


Follow the bouncing ball. The botched trade was the first coupld of days of FA which was 2-3 weeks ago. The season ended around the beginning of 09. McDaniels has been a coach since January, yet none of this with contracts has surfaced until recently. If they were plotting this the whole time, positioning would have been taking place before the botched trade attempt instead of after it.

Kaylore
03-16-2009, 02:56 PM
You can't be serious ... you really believe Cutler and Bus Cook were the instigators of the Lions/Broncos, Bucs/Broncos Cassel trade offers? No way Khan, we all wouldda heard about that from Day 1 if it was true, from the Broncos actually. By all accounts - even McDaniels' account - it's the exact opposite. Other teams supposedly came to Denver.

It's okay you wanna side with the team, but saying Cutler "planned this from the beginning" is just silly.

No, no. I'm not saying that they initiated the trade talks. I'm saying that Cook and Cutler were looking for a reason from the beginning to "get offended" so they could play this angle. If it wasn't this, it would be us drafting a QB in the draft. If it wasn't that it would be "something said in OTA's". Cook and Cutler were planning to do something like this for awhile and just waiting to find a reason.

Basically Cutler had no intention of staying a Bronco from the time that Bates was fired. He wants to leave and while he's paying lip service to being offended, he really just doesn't want to play in Denver anymore and using McDaniels huwting his widdle feeweens as an execuse so he can be traded and not look like the bad guy.

And you all are playing along like puppets.

Taco John
03-16-2009, 02:59 PM
No, no. I'm not saying that they initiated the trade talks. I'm saying that Cook and Cutler were looking for a reason from the beginning to "get offended" so they could play this angle. If it wasn't this, it would be us drafting a QB in the draft. If it wasn't that it would be "something said in OTA's". Cook and Cutler were planning to do something like this for awhile and just waiting to find a reason.

Basically Cutler had no intention of staying a Bronco from the time that Bates was fired. He wants to leave and while he's paying lip service to being offended, he really just doesn't want to play in Denver anymore and using McDaniels huwting his widdle feeweens as an execuse so he can be traded and not look like the bad guy.

And you all are playing along like puppets.



It's interesting conjecture, but I don't think that it's true. I think the fact that Cutler was coming in during his off time to fraternize with the new coaches and learn the offense while everyone else was out partying and vacationing buys him the benefit of a doubt here. He showed a lot of good faith by doing that. I'm suprised that you don't factor that into your position.

lex
03-16-2009, 03:02 PM
Give it a ****in rest already you moron. With 50 posts about Cutler going around you still have to b**** and whine about Jay in a long snapper thread. GD, go get in a fight or something and get it out already.

yawn

BroncosinDC
03-16-2009, 03:03 PM
It's interesting conjecture, but I don't think that it's true. I think the fact that Cutler was coming in during his off time to fraternize with the new coaches and learn the offense while everyone else was out partying and vacationing buys him the benefit of a doubt here. He showed a lot of good faith by doing that. I'm suprised that you don't factor that into your position.

Boom!

TheReverend
03-16-2009, 03:03 PM
It's interesting conjecture, but I don't think that it's true. I think the fact that Cutler was coming in during his off time to fraternize with the new coaches and learn the offense while everyone else was out partying and vacationing buys him the benefit of a doubt here. He showed a lot of good faith by doing that. I'm suprised that you don't factor that into your position.

You forgot how he's offered to restructure to keep his draft class together this off-season as well...

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 03:07 PM
Follow the bouncing ball. The botched trade was the first coupld of days of FA which was 2-3 weeks ago. The season ended around the beginning of 09. McDaniels has been a coach since January, yet none of this with contracts has surfaced until recently. If they were plotting this the whole time, positioning would have been taking place before the botched trade attempt instead of after it.

I am amazed that you are Conceding Jay's Duplicity. That makes this very easy. Since the trade talk. Jay Has had only one agenda. Turn this opportunity into 20 million dollars. Every Action that has taken place since then has been towards that end.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 03:09 PM
You forgot how he's offered to restructure to keep his draft class together this off-season as well...

I had need read that. When did this happen?

lex
03-16-2009, 03:16 PM
I am amazed that you are Conceding Jay's Duplicity. That makes this very easy. Since the trade talk. Jay Has had only one agenda. Turn this opportunity into 20 million dollars. Every Action that has taken place since then has been towards that end.

Not at all. Im saying that if you believe what has been happening in Jays camp is being driven by avarice, then there was nothing preceeding the botched trade to support that it has been in the works the whole time.

Blart
03-16-2009, 03:16 PM
best analysis I've seen so far. Rivers rules

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 03:16 PM
From the Begining of the trade talks. McDaniels has Said over and over again. We want Jay Cutler. Jay's Reply is not unless you are paying me another 20 million you don't want me. Why can't you see this? You seem to think McDaniels only lies and Cutler only speaks the truth.

Me? You missed an obvious McDaniels lie - right there in your post! The bolded part is what Josh is saying, yes, but we now know he wanted Cassel and tried to get him. He lied to Jay about that, that is what I think.

McDaniels should have bene the COACH ONLY. He's a kid-coordinator who's lucky to have just a head coaching job at his age. Adding the GM powers here - to a kid with a full plate who has zero front office experience - was an enormous mistake. Especially after Bowlen promised us (when he fired the best drafting asst GM in the league), that Xanders would be a traditional GM.

Why can't you see this?
.

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 03:19 PM
Jay's Reply is not unless you are paying me another 20 million you don't want me. Why can't you see this?

So sad ... neither Jay nor Bus Cook has said anything about a new contract. That speculation is NEW TODAY, and you're just latching on to it as suddenly "important" because you have so little else justify Josh's behavior.

We're losing Jay because this macho ****head, who's in way over his head, is playing macho power games.
.

Blart
03-16-2009, 03:23 PM
Shanahan had to win 2 super bowls to get the power that McDaniels wields after doing nothing.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 03:23 PM
Me? You missed an obvious McDaniels lie - right there in your post! The bolded part is what Josh is saying, yes, but we now know he wanted Cassel and tried to get him. He lied to Jay about that, that is what I think.

McDaniels should have bene the COACH ONLY. He's a kid-coordinator who's lucky to have just a head coaching job at his age. Adding the GM powers here - to a kid with a full plate who has zero front office experience - was an enormous mistake. Especially after Bowlen promised us (when he fired the best drafting asst GM in the league), that Xanders would be a traditional GM.

Why can't you see this?
.

It is not a lie. He did not go on Record and say all this until after Cassell was traded. Can one party make this all go away in a one sentence press release? You know the answer is yes. Since the Trade Talks. Which were over before we even knew about it. Everything has been about Cutler and his attempt to get paid from the situation. Throw out every quote and just look purely at the actions.

Cutler not traded
cutler leaves town
cutler comes back to town
cutler sells houses
cutler leaves town.

lex
03-16-2009, 03:27 PM
Shanahan had to win 2 super bowls to get the power that McDaniels wields after doing nothing.

Actually, I think he had the same power at the outset. But Pat was so desperate to have Shanahan, he was willing to wear a disguise in an effort to win him over.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 03:28 PM
So sad ... neither Jay nor Bus Cook has said anything about a new contract. That speculation is NEW TODAY, and you're just latching on to it as suddenly "important" because you have so little else justify Josh's behavior.

We're losing Jay because this macho ****head, who's in way over his head, is playing macho power games.
.

I started a thread on this last week.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=78157

Cutler is Way Ahead on the PR Battle
It has become very apperant that Cutler is way ahead on the PR Department. His Message is getting out quicker and thus gets seen as fact before the Broncos even Respond. This to me is a telling sign. Cutler actually wants out. But he wants to stay the good guy too. This is a very delicate balance to walk. Force your way out with 2-3 years left on your rookie deal and the fans tend to turn on you. But with the McD as a new coach he needs to make it seem like he was forced out. There is very good reason for him wanting to go. For one he is not making much money this year 1.5 Mill. And only 6.x next year. He gets out and gets a new deal he makes 30-40 guaranteed. Plus he hits FA 2 years sooner again. Probably in his Early 30's Getting him an additional 40-50Mill. If he gets out now he will actually probably gain-20-30 Million in new dollars. This is a big incentive for him to not be happy. Why else do some of the things he is doing. Why leak everything to the media? If a player wanted to stay in Denver there is no reason to do this. It is obvious Denvers FO did not see this coming. They are behind with every press report. They thought that Cutler had an actual beef about the trade reports. They call talk try and smooth things over. From there perspectives nothing contentious is said. They then go to bed. Next Morning get up Read the post and see-"Cutler More Pissed now than before" WTF? There is no Reason to Leak this out unless you are trying to get traded.

We are losing Jay Because he wants more money

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 03:38 PM
No, no. I'm not saying that they initiated the trade talks. I'm saying that Cook and Cutler were looking for a reason from the beginning to "get offended" so they could play this angle. If it wasn't this, it would be us drafting a QB in the draft. If it wasn't that it would be "something said in OTA's". Cook and Cutler were planning to do something like this for awhile and just waiting to find a reason.

Basically Cutler had no intention of staying a Bronco from the time that Bates was fired. He wants to leave and while he's paying lip service to being offended, he really just doesn't want to play in Denver anymore and using McDaniels huwting his widdle feeweens as an execuse so he can be traded and not look like the bad guy.

And you all are playing along like puppets.

Okay, but that is 110% speculation on your part ... rank speculation, really. There's nothing to go on that supports "Jay wanted out all along," because by all accounts, Jay was in and was working to learn the offense last month. He's even denied the report he asked for a trade when Jeremy was fired.

And the speculative theory Jay and Bus are angling for a new contract is BRAND NEW TODAY. Even so, suddenly you're fingering that 6-hour old speculation as "the root" of all this.

We basically KNOW Josh lied, or at least mislead Jay. It's beyond theory now, it's pretty much fact. Josh DID try to swing a deal for Cassel. He admitted he did to Jay in Saturday's meeting. And while IT'S OKAY to try to make a trade, Josh said at first he only "took calls and said no." It's clear now that was a lie, or at the very least an extremely misleading statement.

You can side with today's brand new unnamed source saying Jay/Bus want a new deal ....

I'll side with what appears to be a clear showing that Josh lied/misled Jay and all of us.
.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 03:51 PM
Okay, but that is 110% speculation on your part ... rank speculation, really. There's nothing to go on that supports "Jay wanted out all along," because by all accounts, Jay was in and was working to learn the offense last month. He's even denied the report he asked for a trade when Jeremy was fired.

And the speculative theory Jay and Bus are angling for a new contract is BRAND NEW TODAY. Even so, suddenly you're fingering that 6-hour old speculation as "the root" of all this.

We basically KNOW Josh lied, or at least mislead Jay. It's beyond theory now, it's pretty much fact. Josh DID try to swing a deal for Cassel. He admitted he did to Jay in Saturday's meeting. And while IT'S OKAY to try to make a trade, Josh said at first he only "took calls and said no." It's clear now that was a lie, or at the very least an extremely misleading statement.

You can side with today's brand new unnamed source saying Jay/Bus want a new deal ....

I'll side with what appears to be a clear showing that Josh lied/misled Jay and all of us.
.

No Reply to my post? I was hoping for more banter

rastaman
03-16-2009, 03:58 PM
When they decide what the future is, yes. As in, "Jay, you've just been traded to the (insert team name here)". Other than that he deserves nothing. He's getting paid very well to be an NFL QB, they owe him NOTHING other than a paycheck.

Jay's job is to show up and do what he's told. Ever since Shanahan was fired it appears he's had trouble with that job. His mind is made up.

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you. Your statement insinuates that Cutler signed on the doted line to work for a dictatorial regime type organization!!! You couldn't be further from the truth! Just b/c the Bronco pays Jay's salary doesn't mean Cutler is by all rights must obey every command and desire the Broncos may have.

Hell the Broncos don't have to pay in 2009.......would that allow Jay to search for employment with another team. My point is, the Bronco's have choices and so does Cutler.

PAYCHECK BE DAMNED.

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 08:06 PM
It is not a lie. He did not go on Record and say all this until after Cassell was traded. Can one party make this all go away in a one sentence press release? You know the answer is yes. Since the Trade Talks. Which were over before we even knew about it. Everything has been about Cutler and his attempt to get paid from the situation. Throw out every quote and just look purely at the actions.

Cutler not traded
cutler leaves town
cutler comes back to town
cutler sells houses
cutler leaves town.

I thought it was established that Cutler's house sale preceded Cutler-gate. I think Taco John started a thread. If Jay truly was trying to get outta town, I doubt he would've raised a red flaglike that.

Me personally, I am 99% certain Jay wanted none of this and was all in with Josh ... until he started hearing how they were trying to traded him. On the street and from Bus.

Banter banter banter ....
.

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 08:16 PM
I thought it was established that Cutler's house sale preceded Cutler-gate. I think Taco John started a thread. If Jay truly was trying to get outta town, I doubt he would've raised a red flaglike that.

Me personally, I am 99% certain Jay wanted none of this and was all in with Josh ... until he started hearing how they were trying to traded him. On the street and from Bus.

Banter banter banter ....
.

One house is a coincidence- 2 is a trend. And While he may have been all in till the trade talk now he has been undermining and attempting to get out since. Cutler shows up and goes to work this is all over that is the only thing that is clear at this point.

oubronco
03-16-2009, 08:19 PM
McD is a fuggin IDIOT

rugbythug
03-16-2009, 08:21 PM
McD is a fuggin IDIOT

Are you trying to go for Ignore is that just a bonus.

oubronco
03-16-2009, 08:25 PM
:ouwknow: whatever

BroncoBuff
03-16-2009, 08:50 PM
One house is a coincidence- 2 is a trend.

Cutler's parents' house. yes, that listing did appear to come as a result of Cutler-gate. But Jay's house, no. There's no indication that had anything to do with it.

Cutler shows up and goes to work this is all over that is the only thing that is clear at this point.

We agree on that ...
.

Dedhed
03-16-2009, 09:27 PM
I was a little tweaked about this when I first read about it, but after reading up on Paxton I can understand the move.

One of the biggest hurdles for any new coach is selling the vision. Paxton is as reliable as Leach in the snapping department, and New England fans were more disappointed in losing Paxton than they were about losing Vrabel or Cassel.

He's a guy that McDaniels can have absolute trust in, and I know if I were in McDs shoes I would want a few of those around.

I still don't love the move because Leach was such a fixture in Denver, but I can understand why it was made.

SoCalBronco
03-16-2009, 10:06 PM
I dunno. I'd love nothing more than to throw more dirt in McD's face, but this is weak. No one cares about the LS. Give me a break. Mike Leach is a nice LS, and obviously McD likes bringing over guys from NE, but this isn't really important. He's not some big leader. Some guys may like him, but its really nothing at all to get upset about. That said, if the guys did lose credibility in him for that or for any reason, I'll be more than happy to take it, even though it would be a weak reason for them to feel that way.

theAPAOps5
03-16-2009, 10:09 PM
I dunno. I'd love nothing more than to throw more dirt in McD's face, but this is weak. No one cares about the LS. Give me a break. Mike Leach is a nice LS, and obviously McD likes bringing over guys from NE, but this isn't really important. He's not some big leader. Some guys may like him, but its really nothing at all to get upset about. That said, if the guys did lose credibility in him for that or for any reason, I'll be more than happy to take it, even though it would be a weak reason for them to feel that way.

GOD I HAVE MISSED YOU.

wandlc
03-16-2009, 10:25 PM
I wouldn't disagree that I'm a dick, but people here throw a fit over a 35 year old long snapper being replaced by a younger, better, SB winner at his position so I don't see how his past career is irrelevant.

People like to b**** around here without knowing the facts. You go ask Pats fans and not a one of them was happy to see Paxton go. I've talked to more than my share and the consensus from them all is they can't remember a single mistake made by Paxton in his 9 years with them. Plus he's a class act. Why wouldn't McDaniels bring in a known quantity like that for what amounts to peanuts against the cap?

Leach DOB 10/18/1976, 10 year vet, 24 solo tackles, 4 assists 0 bad snaps, 32 years old

Paxton DOB 3/13/1978 10 year vet, 6 solo tackles, 6 assists, 2 bad snaps, is 31 years old

Please explain the upgrade.

Man-Goblin
03-16-2009, 10:27 PM
No, no. I'm not saying that they initiated the trade talks. I'm saying that Cook and Cutler were looking for a reason from the beginning to "get offended" so they could play this angle. If it wasn't this, it would be us drafting a QB in the draft. If it wasn't that it would be "something said in OTA's". Cook and Cutler were planning to do something like this for awhile and just waiting to find a reason.

Basically Cutler had no intention of staying a Bronco from the time that Bates was fired. He wants to leave and while he's paying lip service to being offended, he really just doesn't want to play in Denver anymore and using McDaniels huwting his widdle feeweens as an execuse so he can be traded and not look like the bad guy.

And you all are playing along like puppets.

You may be right, but I don't think Cutler bought Bus Cook's positioning for a new contract until the Cassel rumors surfaced.

He may have half-heartedly asked for a trade after Bates left (which I'm still not sure of), but the Cassel rumors were what made Cutler start playing the media game. Up until then he was saying how he was on board and was excited about what was to come (at the Pro Bowl and what not).

But the first day of free agency was Cook's in. He saw it, pounced on it, and sold Jay on it big time.