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UberBroncoMan
03-14-2009, 10:51 PM
Cutler, McDaniels Meet; But It's Not Good

It appears the feud continues.

CBS4 Sports has learned Jay Cutler met face-to-face with head coach Josh McDaniels on Saturday morning. But the outcome was not good. We are told that much like last Monday's conference call between Cutler and the Broncos brass, Saturday's discussion did not go well. Cutler and the Broncos remain at odds.

The quarterback was scheduled to attend a "roast" for long-time Broncos trainer Steve Antonopulos on Saturday night. But as guests began to arrive, we learned Cutler would not be coming. A Broncos spokesperson told media members who were gathered at the event that Cutler decided not to attend because he did not want the attention on him to overshadow the evening's festivities.

Sources tell CBS4 Sports that Cutler made his decision not to attend the event after the meeting with the Broncos went sour.

Now we await the next chapter in this soap opera. Monday morning, McDaniels will hold his first team meeting at Dove Valley. But will Cutler be there? A few days ago we were told Cutler was likely to report on Monday because he did not want to let down his teammates.

Now we're left to wonder if Saturday morning's meeting will make Cutler a Monday morning no-show.


http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/cutler.nfl.broncos.2.958850.html


Now the question you ask yourself is... was his parents house put up for sale AFTER this meeting or before? If it's after I think we have an idea of what's happening Monday.

Seriously Mc****Tard needs to just stop with the hardass **** and remedy the situation. Fix the damn situation now. Blow him for all I care at this point, but the idea of Simms or some rookie or some reject from another team being our starting QB next year is unacceptable. You were hired to win now, and ****ing up the offense doesn't do that.

Cutler on the other hand needs to swallow his freaking pride and play his ass off so if another issue ever comes up, it's McTard's ass on the line and not his. Enough of the games and the behind the back signals. Show the **** up to the meeting monday, play for the fans and your teammates and have another Pro Bowl season. If you hand not hung up on Bowlen you probably would be fine now... afterall if the Owner like you and doesn't want to get rid of you, there's nothing to be worried about. Your days are #'ed in Denver if you don't show up now and show Mc****Tard up.

BroncoDoug
03-14-2009, 10:55 PM
I just read this.... I am ordering my Chris Simms jersey as we speak.

montrose
03-14-2009, 10:55 PM
Cutler, McDaniels Meet; But It's Not Good

It appears the feud continues.

CBS4 Sports has learned Jay Cutler met face-to-face with head coach Josh McDaniels on Saturday morning. But the outcome was not good. We are told that much like last Monday's conference call between Cutler and the Broncos brass, Saturday's discussion did not go well. Cutler and the Broncos remain at odds.

The quarterback was scheduled to attend a "roast" for long-time Broncos trainer Steve Antonopulos on Saturday night. But as guests began to arrive, we learned Cutler would not be coming. A Broncos spokesperson told media members who were gathered at the event that Cutler decided not to attend because he did not want the attention on him to overshadow the evening's festivities.

Sources tell CBS4 Sports that Cutler made his decision not to attend the event after the meeting with the Broncos went sour.

Now we await the next chapter in this soap opera. Monday morning, McDaniels will hold his first team meeting at Dove Valley. But will Cutler be there? A few days ago we were told Cutler was likely to report on Monday because he did not want to let down his teammates.

Now we're left to wonder if Saturday morning's meeting will make Cutler a Monday morning no-show.

http://cbs4denver.com/broncos/cutler.nfl.broncos.2.958850.html

OBF1
03-14-2009, 10:55 PM
The question you have to ask is this.... Which person gave an interview, Jay or Josh??? If neither one of them did CBS sports is full of BS and whom ever did talk... if at all will catch the full wrath of the other.

Punisher
03-14-2009, 10:56 PM
.........

DarkHorse
03-14-2009, 10:57 PM
Honestly I could care less anymore. What's done is done, it is what it is. Start OTA's and if he shows cool, if not i'm sure everyones balls will still have sweat on them.


Time to move on and discuss something with actual relevence.

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:10 PM
Don't let the screen door pop your ass on the way out, Jay. **** his prima donna ****. Anyone taking his side puts individuals before the team, period.

azbroncfan
03-14-2009, 11:12 PM
The trade for Quinn and Rodgers is starting to look better every day.

Northman
03-14-2009, 11:23 PM
Does make you wonder if the meeting Monday is too address the team about Cutler's future.

Taco John
03-14-2009, 11:36 PM
"Listen Jay. We're in a tough situation here because I didn't handle this right from the outset. Not that I think that you handled it great, but hear me out. I should have been the first person you heard about these deals from, not the grapevine. That's on me. I take full responsibility for my lack of communication with you, and I'm sorry."

baja
03-14-2009, 11:38 PM
Screw this, I'm goin fishing with Shanahan.

SoCalBronco
03-14-2009, 11:39 PM
Screw this, I'm goin fishing with Shanahan.

Don't forget to take a turkey sandwich.

baja
03-14-2009, 11:40 PM
His favorite. ;D

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:41 PM
"Listen Jay. We're in a tough situation here because I didn't handle this right from the outset. Not that I think that you handled it great, but hear me out. I should have been the first person you heard about these deals from, not the grapevine. That's on me. I take full responsibility for my lack of communication with you, and I'm sorry."

Wrong. What Jay should have said:

"I am going to be an adult about this and move on. I know I'm not above the team and that anyone can be traded given the right deal. I apologize for causing this mess by crying and thinking I'm above the team. I look forward to working with you in the future and trying to win a championship. I will work hard to cut down on my costly mistakes and to play within your system which is a proven winner."

Popps
03-14-2009, 11:42 PM
"Listen Jay. We're in a tough situation here because I didn't handle this right from the outset. Not that I think that you handled it great, but hear me out. I should have been the first person you heard about these deals from, not the grapevine. That's on me. I take full responsibility for my lack of communication with you, and I'm sorry."

Hilarious!

".... oh, and I'm wondering if you need me to wash your car or perhaps you'd like to borrow my wife? Beyond that, I'd just like to thank you for the opportunity to be a part of your franchise. Mr. Bowlen and I are forever in your debt, and we look forward to being humble underlings, going forward. Please let me know when you'd like to start conditioning and practice, and I'll let the team know. I would like to keep my whistle, if possible... but I say that with great respect, so please don't take that wrong....."

SoCalBronco
03-14-2009, 11:42 PM
Wrong. What Jay should have said:

"I am going to be an adult about this and move on. I know I'm not above the team and that anyone can be traded given the right deal. I apologize for causing this mess by crying and thinking I'm above the team. I look forward to working with you in the future and trying to win a championship. I will work hard to cut down on my costly mistakes and to play within your system which is a proven winner."

And here's what Pat should have said:

"Good Lord........even Tommy Bowden wouldn't have ****ed everything up this bad".

;D

Taco John
03-14-2009, 11:43 PM
Wrong. What Jay should have said:

"I am going to be an adult about this and move on. I know I'm not above the team and that anyone can be traded given the right deal. I apologize for causing this mess by crying and thinking I'm above the team. I look forward to working with you in the future and trying to win a championship. I will work hard to cut down on my costly mistakes and to play within your system which is a proven winner."


If Jay thought he was above the team, that would be a good thing for him to say.

Popps
03-14-2009, 11:44 PM
"Listen Jay. We're in a tough situation here because I didn't handle this right from the outset. Not that I think that you handled it great, but hear me out. I should have been the first person you heard about these deals from, not the grapevine. That's on me. I take full responsibility for my lack of communication with you, and I'm sorry."

Honestly... this is really ****in' hilarious.

I guess it's for real. I can't tell 100%, but either way... it's epic.

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:44 PM
If Jay thought he was above the team, that would be a good thing for him to say.

It's pretty clear he did.

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:45 PM
And here's what Pat should have said:

"Good Lord........even Tommy Bowden wouldn't have ****ed everything up this bad".

;D

Now, c'mon, SoCal. No one can **** up as bad as Tommy. Not even Jerry Glanville for godsake ;D

Taco John
03-14-2009, 11:46 PM
Honestly... this is really ****in' hilarious.

I guess it's for real. I can't tell 100%, but either way... it's epic.



It's totally for real. I think Josh should man up to his mistake.

SoCalBronco
03-14-2009, 11:46 PM
Now, c'mon, SoCal. No one can **** up as bad as Tommy. Not even Jerry Glanville for godsake ;D

I'd actually much rather have Tommy in charge than our very own little Caligula. Hell I'd take Dabo Swinney in a heartbeat, too. :)

Atwater His Ass
03-14-2009, 11:47 PM
I'm less and less impressed with McDaniels every day.

I've come to terms that perhaps it was time for Shanny to be moved, but it doesn't look like McDaniels is the guy if he can't even resolve this issue.

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:48 PM
It's totally for real. I think Josh should man up to his mistake.

Except he didn't make a mistake. Unless you can prove he lied to Jay, which you seem to assume he did but have yet to provide any proof of.

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:50 PM
I'd actually much rather have Tommy in charge than our very own little Caligula. Hell I'd take Dabo Swinney in a heartbeat, too. :)

We refer to Dabo as "Coach Pfife" around here. He's a damn goober. But, hell, you can't help but love the guy. I think he'll do OK for us. Can't be worse than Tommy, whom I refer to as the George W. Bush of college coaches.

Atwater His Ass
03-14-2009, 11:51 PM
Except he didn't make a mistake. Unless you can prove he lied to Jay, which you seem to assume he did but have yet to provide any proof of.

I don't think anyone is necessarily proud of the way Jay has handled this up to this point, but the fact is the reason he feels the way he does is because of his perception that he was lied to and the team not owning up to that.

The is and has been in McDaniels court since day 1. He is the one that can end this. He is failing as a coach, supervisor, boss, whatever you want to call it.

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:52 PM
I'm less and less impressed with McDaniels every day.

I've come to terms that perhaps it was time for Shanny to be moved, but it doesn't look like McDaniels is the guy if he can't even resolve this issue.

It's up to Jay to resolve this, not McDaniels. McD listened to trade offers and there is not a damn thing wrong with that. Jay need to get over it and I'm glad McD is not kowtowing to his ass.

Atwater His Ass
03-14-2009, 11:52 PM
It's up to Jay to resolve this, not McDaniels. McD listened to trade offers and there is not a damn thing wrong with that. Jay need to get over it and I'm glad McD is not kowtowing to his ass.

See my post above.

The fact that McD listened to trade offers isn't the problem at all.

cutthemdown
03-14-2009, 11:54 PM
Everyone assumes that Mcdaniels is being a total dickhead. Maybe Cutler is the one being dickhead. Alas who knows, all I know is Broncos seem ****ed like a freshman on spring break.

Friggin sucks that the one good thing we had going, a qb to build around, is now in the ****ter.

I just don't see how things could be so bad between them and they haven't even worked together yet. Something is really wrong with this situation and quite frankly I don't know what to think anymore.

Taco John
03-14-2009, 11:54 PM
Except he didn't make a mistake.

Sure he did. He allowed the leak to get to Jay through back channels before he let him know about it himself. That's a huge gaffe that is probably going to cost this organization the equivalent of a first round draft pick in overall value, and set us back at least a year maybe two.

A simple phone call.

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:54 PM
I don't think anyone is necessarily proud of the way Jay has handled this up to this point, but the fact is the reason he feels the way he does is because of his perception that he was lied to and the team not owning up to that.

The is and has been in McDaniels court since day 1. He is the one that can end this. He is failing as a coach, supervisor, boss, whatever you want to call it.

You got any proof that McD lied? Cause I have not seen anyone provide any yet. Or do you just want him to apologize for lying even if he didn't?

You are wrong, bud. Jay is the one who needs to man up and be an adult. He needs to realize he ain't above the team and that anyone can be traded if it's a good enough deal. McD did not do a thing wrong here. He should NOT kowtow to Jay, not at all. If Jay wants his ass to get kissed I hope McD kicks it instead.

Arkie
03-14-2009, 11:54 PM
Even if McDaniels turns into the greatest coach of all time, I think the 1st chapter of his book will be Hard knocks in Denver: Head Coaching at 32

baja
03-14-2009, 11:55 PM
I think we should take up a collection to send Spider to Dove Valley to teach some people skills.

BroncoInferno
03-14-2009, 11:56 PM
Sure he did. He allowed the leak to get to Jay through back channels before he let him know about it himself. That's a huge gaffe that is probably going to cost this organization the equivalent of a first round draft pick in overall value, and set us back at least a year maybe two.

A simple phone call.

It wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost us a thing if Jay would stop being a baby and realize that having conversations about trade scenarios isn't the end of the world, that he isn't above such. You seem to think it's OK for Jay to pout and cry. BS. Thank god McD isn't kowtowing and kissing ass like you want him to.

Taco John
03-14-2009, 11:57 PM
It's up to Jay to resolve this, not McDaniels. McD listened to trade offers and there is not a damn thing wrong with that. Jay need to get over it and I'm glad McD is not kowtowing to his ass.


You're absolutely right about the fact that there's nothing wrong with listening to trade offers. I'd even go so far as to say that there's nothing wrong with him even initiating them. Where he failed (and he did fail) is by not executing on a trade, and failing that, not being the first person to communicate with the player about the situation before the news reached him through back channels.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:01 AM
You got any proof that McD lied? Cause I have not seen anyone provide any yet. Or do you just want him to apologize for lying even if he didn't?

You are wrong, bud. Jay is the one who needs to man up and be an adult. He needs to realize he ain't above the team and that anyone can be traded if it's a good enough deal. McD did not do a thing wrong here. He should NOT kowtow to Jay, not at all. If Jay wants his ass to get kissed I hope McD kicks it instead.

Dude you realize proof doesn't matter right? Hence why I said perception. The fact is Cutler feels that way about it, and it's up to McD to set it straight with Cutler about what went down and resolve those issues. He either can't or chooses not to do that. And for someone in a leadership position such as head coach, I find that VERY disturbing and my confidence in McD is pretty much non-existant at this point.

I get the feeling that a lot of you people have never had to manage anyone in a work setting. I manage about 20 people in a fast paced, high stress work place. When issues such as these come up, I deal with them immediately for just the reasons that we are seeing happening now. It's pretty obvious most here don't have to deal with those types of things ever. It's not really about who's right or wrong, it's about authority figures (management, w/e) taking the lead and fixing the problem (i'm looking at you Mr. Bowlen).

Again. McD listening and considering trade offers for Cutler IS NOT THE ISSUE. He has a disgruntled employee that feels like he's not getting a fair shake from his employers. Bowlen needs to step in and take care of this.

I'm sorry you idiots can't realize that it's not about bowing down to Jay. I don't know how many times myself and others can say that and how long you are going to choose to ignore the core issues and keep your head in the sand playing the he said she said game.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:01 AM
It wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost us a thing if Jay would stop being a baby and realize that having conversations about trade scenarios isn't the end of the world, that he isn't above such. You seem to think it's OK for Jay to pout and cry. BS. Thank god McD isn't kowtowing and kissing ass like you want him to.

I don't want McDaniels to kiss Jay's ass. I just want to see him set an example by pointing the finger of blame where it belongs: Square in his own chest.

This thing could have been settled with a single phone call to Jay, "hey I wanted to let you know before you heard it anywhere else... this is what happened... this is what's going to happen..."

Instead his tact seems to be, "Nothing happened, and by the way, this is all your fault."

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:02 AM
You're absolutely right about the fact that there's nothing wrong with listening to trade offers. I'd even go so far as to say that there's nothing wrong with him even initiating them. Where he failed (and he did fail) is by not executing on a trade, and failing that, not being the first person to communicate with the player about the situation before the news reached him through back channels.

OK, I can see Jay being peeved at first, but, hell, get over it! I don't understand why you want to give Jay a pass here, as if his reaction is reasonable. It isn't. He could end of this in 5 minutes with this simple statement (or one similar): "I was initially surprised and disappointed by reports that my name came up in trade discussions, but I realize that this is a business and such talks happen. At the end of the day, I'm still a Bronco and look forward to working with Coach McDaniels to win a title."

He could have made that statement two week ago and this would be old news. He could make that statement right now and it would be old news by Monday. Thank goodness McD won't wipe Cutler's ass like you want him to.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:05 AM
At your workplace, if you feel like the managment is giving you a raw deal, how do you take that upon yourself to fix?

Pick Six
03-15-2009, 12:06 AM
A Broncos spokesperson told media members who were gathered at the event that Cutler decided not to attend because he did not want the attention on him to overshadow the evening's festivities.



This is a perfectly acceptable spin, IMO. The media (and message boards) want to make this out to be a knock-down, drag-out fight...

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:06 AM
I don't want McDaniels to kiss Jay's ass. I just want to see him set an example by pointing the finger of blame where it belongs: Square in his own chest.

This thing could have been settled with a single phone call to Jay, "hey I wanted to let you know before you heard it anywhere else... this is what happened... this is what's going to happen..."

Instead his tact seems to be, "Nothing happened, and by the way, this is all your fault."

Well, it is Jay's fault. Like I said, Jay could have made a statement when all this happened that would have put an end to it. He could make a statement in five minutes that would end it. But he is being too selfish to do that. Thankfully, McD is setting the proper example by not budging in a case where the player is clearly the one in the wrong (or, at least, clearly to anyone with proper perspective on the issue).

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:07 AM
Except he didn't make a mistake. Unless you can prove he lied to Jay, which you seem to assume he did but have yet to provide any proof of.

you don't have a clue either so STFU...no one knows what actually happened. No one knows if McD lied, no one knows what Jay is thinking, no one knows anything except the few involved.

so get off your high horse and stop pretending like you are above the speculation and guessing

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:09 AM
you don't have a clue either so STFU...no one knows what actually happened. No one knows if McD lied, no one knows what Jay is thinking, no one knows anything except the few involved.



Correct. The only thing we know at this point, is that the Broncos have a disgruntled employee (a high profile one nonetheless) and they can't handle the situation.

Wether you all want to beleive this is Jay's fault McD's fault, doesn't matter. Fact is, this is hurting the Bronco franchise both inside and out.

The blame starts at the top (Mr. Bowlen) and **** rolls down hill.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:09 AM
OK, I can see Jay being peeved at first, but, hell, get over it! I don't understand why you want to give Jay a pass here, as if his reaction is reasonable. It isn't. He could end of this in 5 minutes with this simple statement (or one similar): "I was initially surprised and disappointed by reports that my name came up in trade discussions, but I realize that this is a business and such talks happen. At the end of the day, I'm still a Bronco and look forward to working with Coach McDaniels to win a title."

He could have made that statement two week ago and this would be old news. He could make that statement right now and it would be old news by Monday. Thank goodness McD won't wipe Cutler's ass like you want him to.


This board has been over this a hundred times, and you're still bringing up the same fallacies that you were yesterday and the day before that... For some reason, you think Jay is upset that his name came up in trade talks, and give absolutely no creedence to his own words...


"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while." Cutler added that after the proposed deal spread through the Internet, the team cut off communication with Cook.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:10 AM
At your workplace, if you feel like the managment is giving you a raw deal, how do you take that upon yourself to fix?

First of all, I make sure I know for a fact that management has given me a raw deal. If I don't have incontrovertible facts, then I don't assume anything. Second, if I do conclude I've been screwed, I act knowing that there are going to be consequences for me to pay. In this case, Jay is assuming he's been lied to and doesn't have any proof. So, I don't feel sorry for him. Either get to work or say you want to be trade and get it over with so we can move on.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:11 AM
If McD continues to stonewall and deny that he bears any responsibility in the situation... in short, if he fails to address his screwup... then I'm going to conclude that he is, in fact, in over his head and too young and inexperienced (a boy playing a man's game).

He did not play it straight with Cutler... he was two-faced all the way and I don't blame Cutler for feeling he was lied to.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:12 AM
you don't have a clue either so STFU...no one knows what actually happened. No one knows if McD lied, no one knows what Jay is thinking, no one knows anything except the few involved.

so get off your high horse and stop pretending like you are above the speculation and guessing

Difference is that, unlike Jay, I'm giving the front office the benefit of the doubt. They say they only listened to offers. I have no reason to doubt them, and neither does Jay. That's the difference in my speculation and what makes it more reasonable: I'm giving the benefit of the doubt where there is no proof.

NFLBRONCO
03-15-2009, 12:13 AM
For years we have wanted a HC that held players accountable for bad play and toughen us up. We have a coach like that now and everybody hates it.

Everybody is focusing on way he handled the Cutler trade talks maybe they did not do very good but, it also exposed other things. How mentally soft Cutler is I mean he has a right to be miffed some but, be miffed as an adult not a 12 yr old. Come in with a chip on your shoulder and prove your tough enough and show staff you can handle a hard nosed approach. I have these same concerns with BM I wonder how he will do with a no nonsense coach.

McD will learn with experience how to deal with things better as well.

I realize alot of you hate McD and that's your right to do so. Its not 100% his fault that players are too soft to handle the no I in team concept. He is going to do it NE way no babies will be here in Denver.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:15 AM
First of all, I make sure I know for a fact that management has given me a raw deal. If I don't have incontrovertible facts, then I don't assume anything.

They completely cut off communication with he and his agent after the Internet rumors started flying. That's an incontrovertible fact. When they did start talking again, it was after a "let's get our story straight session," where they spread to every one who would listen some jive about how "they were just listening" and never even considered trading Cutler - only to reverse their position within a week to "everybody is up for grabs here, especially Cutler."

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:15 AM
First of all, I make sure I know for a fact that management has given me a raw deal. If I don't have incontrovertible facts, then I don't assume anything. In this case, Jay is assuming he's been lied to and doesn't have any proof.

I promise you Jay knows a hell of a lot more about this situation than you do. He is an educated guy, and it's been weeks--this is no longer a knee jerk reaction...I doubt his feelings are completely unfounded.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:16 AM
This board has been over this a hundred times, and you're still bringing up the same fallacies that you were yesterday and the day before that... For some reason, you think Jay is upset that his name came up in trade talks, and give absolutely no creedence to his own words...


"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while." Cutler added that after the proposed deal spread through the Internet, the team cut off communication with Cook.

I know what Jay said. I'm waiting for him or you or anyone to provide some proof that "[i]t's been in motion for awhile." If you don't have it, then Jay's statement means not one thing to me. The only fallacy is that you assume that McD lied when you have zero...and I mean ZERO...proof.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:16 AM
For years we have wanted a HC that held players accountable for bad play and toughen us up. We have a coach like that now and everybody hates it.



Not the issue at all. In fact, Jay is asking them to be accountable for the information they passed to him.

In fact, when talking about accountability, I would expect the front office to be accoutable enough to deal with this situation from day 1. They obviously can't.

You guys are getting the issues so convoluted it's ridiculous.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:17 AM
If McD continues to stonewall and deny that he bears any responsibility in the situation... in short, if he fails to address his screwup... then I'm going to conclude that he is, in fact, in over his head and too young and inexperienced (a boy playing a man's game).

He did not play it straight with Cutler... he was two-faced all the way and I don't blame Cutler for feeling he was lied to.

Got any proof that he lied? Didn't think so...

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:17 AM
For years we have wanted a HC that held players accountable for bad play and toughen us up. We have a coach like that now and everybody hates it.

For a coach to be able to hold players accountable, they have to start with themselves first.

Besides, Shanahan held players accountable just fine. Accountability is not something that this team lacked.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:18 AM
First of all, I make sure I know for a fact that management has given me a raw deal. If I don't have incontrovertible facts, then I don't assume anything. Second, if I do conclude I've been screwed, I act knowing that there are going to be consequences for me to pay. In this case, Jay is assuming he's been lied to and doesn't have any proof. So, I don't feel sorry for him. Either get to work or say you want to be trade and get it over with so we can move on.

So you don't expect your supervisor(s) to have open lines of communication? You take the entire burden upon yourself?

Must be a crappy place to work.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:18 AM
I promise you Jay knows a hell of a lot more about this situation than you do. He is an educated guy, and it's been weeks--this is no longer a knee jerk reaction...I doubt his feelings are completely unfounded.

You "doubt" it huh...well excuse me if I don't take your word for it. I want someone to give me some evidence that Jay was lied to. Otherwise, shut up Jay and get to work.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:19 AM
Got any proof that he lied? Didn't think so...

Why do you keep saying this when it's not even remotely the issue?

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:19 AM
I know what Jay said. I'm waiting for him or you or anyone to provide some proof that "[i]t's been in motion for awhile." If you don't have it, then Jay's statement means not one thing to me. The only fallacy is that you assume that McD lied when you have zero...and I mean ZERO...proof.


The proof that Josh McDaniels screwed this thing up is the fact that this is a story at all. You might not know it - but I promise you that he does.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:20 AM
Difference is that, unlike Jay, I'm giving the front office the benefit of the doubt. They say they only listened to offers. I have no reason to doubt them, and neither does Jay. That's the difference in my speculation and what makes it more reasonable: I'm giving the benefit of the doubt where there is no proof.

Jay's a bit closer to the situation than any of us here in cyberspace... and I'm guessing he has a lot more insight into what transpired (the circumstances of when and how he learned that he was, in fact, on the trading block while they were telling him to his face that he was not). To state that he "has no reason to doubt them" is nothing more than drinking the front-office's yummy Kool Aid.

Again, we don't know why Jay believes he was deceived; we just know that he does believe they didn't play it straight with him. You're focusing on "proof that they lied"; while we're saying "If Jay believes they lied to him; then they need to address that". You can't "give the benefit of any doubt" on that; they have a problem and they need to fix it.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:20 AM
So you don't expect your supervisor(s) to have open lines of communication? You take the entire burden upon yourself?

Must be a crappy place to work.

What are you talking about? Jay is the one who refused to meet with the brass until it suited him. They wanted to talk immediately.

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:20 AM
How mentally soft Cutler is I mean he has a right to be miffed some but, be miffed as an adult not a 12 yr old. Come in with a chip on your shoulder and prove your tough enough and show staff you can handle a hard nosed approach.

Mentally soft? How many times has he come through in the 4th quarter and put his teammates on his back? How many years has it been since he's been a part of a successful team, yet losing a single game pisses him off beyond measure? That's not soft...

Expecting more loyalty from your team...naive I suppose, but I can't blame him. His reaction shouldn't have been brought out publicly, ok... but he isn't soft.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:21 AM
It's totally for real. I think Josh should man up to his mistake.

What mistake? Not telling Jay? Taco take a step back and ask yourself if Jay's apparent meltdown going into a month now is really justified over the non-trade or even the "perceived lying?" I mean seriously? Would you behave this way if you were a player under contract? Even if McDaniels did what you suggest, apologize for really nothing (as GM and coach, Xanders and McDaniels have every right to shop whoever they want), Jay's attitude wouldn't change a bit. You want to know why? Because I don't think he's really mad about what happened at all. I think once Bates and Shanny were gone, he and Cook were looking for an excuse to make a stink and they found it. Now they're trying the leverage the situation to frame the organization in a bad light so they don't look bad for wanting out of town. Cook wants a pay day, but really so does Cutler. I think this is a classic case of rope-a-dope.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:22 AM
What are you talking about? Jay is the one who refused to meet with the brass until it suited him. They wanted to talk immediately.

Uh... Did you miss this part:

Cutler added that after the proposed deal spread through the Internet, the team cut off communication with Cook.

The Broncos started playing games. Cutler obliged them. I wish he didn't, but he's not the one who set this thing in motion.

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:22 AM
You "doubt" it huh...well excuse me if I don't take your word for it. I want someone to give me some evidence that Jay was lied to. Otherwise, shut up Jay and get to work.

ok Matlock, where's your proof McD only "listened" to offers?? There is no proof either way...except that you sir are a dumbass

UberBroncoMan
03-15-2009, 12:22 AM
Well, it is Jay's fault. Like I said, Jay could have made a statement when all this happened that would have put an end to it. He could make a statement in five minutes that would end it. But he is being too selfish to do that. Thankfully, McD is setting the proper example by not budging in a case where the player is clearly the one in the wrong (or, at least, clearly to anyone with proper perspective on the issue).

You do realize that McDaniels could lie regardless due to his perspective on the issue? Saying someone is right because they know exactly what went down doesn't mean jack. Cutler is mad because he apparently KNOWS they tried to trade him and McDaniels will not admit it. Further more, McDaniels does nothing but talk him down...

McDaniels is a complete idiot, and I'll explain why.

Imagine Cutler is a wild dog... he's been free to do a lot of the stuff he's wanted his way and Shanahan was the dude that put some food out in the middle of the forest every now and then. He was a happy camper.

Now imagine the food is gone...

The dog is ticked yeah, but that just means he has to work for his food again, no biggy.

Now this is where McDaniels is ****ing up.

He's trying to go out into the woods and domesticate the wild dog (Cutler) in a single stroke.

You don't ****ing instantly domesticate a wild dog, or a person like Cutler. It just doesn't happen.

What McDaniels should have done to quell the situation is take into account who Cutler is by assessing the situation (something the most basic capable leaders do).

After he realized the Cutler was "a wild dog" he should have SLOWLY domesticated him to his line of thought, his "SYSTEM."

He should have taken things slow with Cutler. Being nice and easy on him but at the same time setting some simple ground rules. As the days turned to months, he could ramp it up more and more, until eventually Cutler would literally be "domesticated" to McDaniels philosophy.

It's like turning a free democratic country into a communist country. You do it slowly by shifting towards socialism, and before the people in the country realize it, the government owns everything and they're a communist nation.

McDaniels is ****ing lazy... and this just shows it. The asshat tried to get Cassel because he was comfortable with him. He didn't want to take the time to coach Cutler who was of a vastly superior skill set and even intelligence.

Further more he's too ****ing lazy to ease his star players into his philosophy. He just wants to say deal with this ****, this is how it is, if you don't like it **** you. That's what pathetic leaders do... that's what leaders who are AFRAID do. He's a kid and he just woke up and realized he's the boss of a bunch of people, not just the QB's or the play calling on offense anymore.

As such he thought... well what would Bilicheat do... and BAM. He's trying to institute too much too fast and it's backfired. Everyone on the team has seen the Cutler situation and their scared now, and I have no doubt a great many of the players on offense in Denver has lost a ton of respect for McDaniels. You get Elvis 'on the bubble for a starting LB spot' Dumvervil trying to be a leader and remedy the situation, but you've got NO ONE on offense saying a damn thing. Hell Stokely was mad pissed about Leach being cut for Paxton.

Some people deal with philosophical changes quickly and with ease. People on fresh contracts or just coming in aren't going to question it because it means their ass is on the bench.

Yes, Cutler should suck it up and go into next season and kick everyone's ass on the field. Yes, Cutler should try to get another Pro Bowl. Yes, Cutler should prove to everyone in Denver and the NFL that HE is the Franchise and not McDaniels. If Cutler doesn't do this he's just as big a ****ing idiot as McDaniels... but McDaniels is the leader of the team now from an administration stand point and as the leader, he needs to lead BY EXAMPLE... and thus far he's been pathetic.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:23 AM
What mistake? Not telling Jay. Taco take a step back and ask yourself if Jay's apparent melt down going into a month now is really justified over the non trade?

Over the non-trade. No. This wouldn't be justified if it was about the non-trade.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:23 AM
The proof that Josh McDaniels screwed this thing up is the fact that this is a story at all. You might not know it - but I promise you that he does.

This times a million.

Uh... Did you miss this part:

Cutler added that after the proposed deal spread through the Internet, the team cut off communication with Cook.

The Broncos started playing games. Cutler obliged them. I wish he didn't, but he's not the one who set this thing in motion.

And beat me to it.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:23 AM
Jay's a bit closer to the situation than any of us here in cyberspace... and I'm guessing he has a lot more insight into what transpired (the circumstances of when and how he learned that he was, in fact, on the trading block while they were telling him to his face that he was not). To state that he "has no reason to doubt them" is nothing more than drinking the front-office's yummy Kool Aid.

Again, we don't know why Jay believes he was deceived; we just know that he does believe they didn't play it straight with him. You're focusing on "proof that they lied"; while we're saying "If Jay believes they lied to him; then they need to address that". You can't "give the benefit of any doubt" on that; they have a problem and they need to fix it.

Translation: You're right, BI, I have no proof that Jay was lied to and he hasn't provided a shred of proof that he was lied to either.

I don't care if Jay thinks he was deceived. If he doesn't have proof of it, he needs to shut his goddamn mouth and get to work. if he does have proof, let's ****ing see it. I don't think he has it.

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:24 AM
What are you talking about? Jay is the one who refused to meet with the brass until it suited him. They wanted to talk immediately.

They didn't communicate with him AT ALL for days after these rumors broke... you're going from ignorant to blatantly wrong.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:24 AM
Uh... Did you miss this part:

Cutler added that after the proposed deal spread through the Internet, the team cut off communication with Cook.

The Broncos started playing games. Cutler obliged them. I wish he didn't, but he's not the one who set this thing in motion.

What games? Not talking to an agent?

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:25 AM
Translation: You're right, BI, I have no proof that Jay was lied to and he hasn't provided a shred of proof that he was lied to either.

I don't care if Jay thinks he was deceived. If he doesn't have proof of it, he needs to shut his goddamn mouth and get to work. if he does have proof, let's ****ing see it. I don't think he has it.

Again. Why do you continue to think that proof is the issue?

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:26 AM
Got any proof that he lied? Didn't think so...

The proof is in the fact that he allowed Jay to come into the office (when he wasn't required to) in order to learn McD's system... why would Jay do that if he didn't believe 100% that he was "McD's guy"? (Hint: if he knew they were considering trading him, that would be a waste of his and everyone else's time becoming familiar with McD's offensive system.) And yet all the while, they were "entertaining the idea" of trading him for Matt Cassel...

Again, for him to be there every day like that strongly suggests that Jay had no clue they were going to try to trade him. Yet, they were....

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:26 AM
They didn't communicate with him AT ALL for days after these rumors broke... you're going from ignorant to blatantly wrong.

Because it's none of his business. GM's do this ALL THE TIME. They shop players ALL THE TIME and don't tell the players unless they're traded. THEY HAVE NO SAY unless they have a no-trade clause in their contract. This isn't something "new" in sports. The only thing new is Cutler thinking he's as good as "Manning, Big-ben" and all the other guys that he talked about not being traded.

NFLBRONCO
03-15-2009, 12:26 AM
Not the issue at all. In fact, Jay is asking them to be accountable for the information they passed to him.

In fact, when talking about accountability, I would expect the front office to be accoutable enough to deal with this situation from day 1. They obviously can't.

You guys are getting the issues so convoluted it's ridiculous.

See this is what I'm hoping someone would say back to me. Ok they should have reached out better. Even if they did the way Cutler has acted I'm not sure things would be any different he'd still be miffed over trade talks we'd be in same situation.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:27 AM
They didn't communicate with him AT ALL for days after these rumors broke... you're going from ignorant to blatantly wrong.

They tried, he wouldn't answer the phone.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:28 AM
What mistake? Not telling Jay? Taco take a step back and ask yourself if Jay's apparent meltdown going into a month now is really justified over the non-trade or even the "perceived lying?" I mean seriously? Would you behave this way if you were a player under contract? Even if McDaniels did what you suggest, apologize for really nothing (as GM and coach, Xanders and McDaniels have every right to shop whoever they want), Jay's attitude wouldn't change a bit. You want to know why? Because I don't think he's really mad about what happened at all. I think once Bates and Shanny were gone, he and Cook were looking for an excuse to make a stink and they found it. Now they're trying the leverage the situation to frame the organization in a bad light so they don't look bad for wanting out of town. Cook wants a pay day, but really so does Cutler. I think this is a classic case of rope-a-dope.

I find this the be the most far-fetched thing posted about this situation yet.

My impression of Cutler is a guy that plays hard for his teammates, and seems to genuinly love being a Denver Bronco. I think the latter issue is perhaps what really has this stirred up more than anything. The guy loves being here and that just makes it hurt even more with his perception of what happened coupled with the inability of managment to fix this.

I know I love being a part of my workplace and would feel severly betrayed if something similar to this episode took place.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:28 AM
What games? Not talking to an agent?


Let me get this straight... When the Broncos start off by blowing off the Cutler camp - no big deal. But when the Cutler camp returns this treatment, this is childish and outrageous.

Is this your position?

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:28 AM
Difference is that, unlike Jay, I'm giving the front office the benefit of the doubt. They say they only listened to offers. I have no reason to doubt them, and neither does Jay. That's the difference in my speculation and what makes it more reasonable: I'm giving the benefit of the doubt where there is no proof.

You should really read this aloud... wow.

unlike Jay, you're making assumptions...Jay isnt that dumb.

you don't know what Jay knows...maybe he learned not to disclose everything to the press so he's got some info you don't know.

when is the last time an nfl franchise was honest about these situations? ever?

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:29 AM
Because it's none of his business.


Wow.

Are you sure about that?

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:29 AM
Over the non-trade. No. This wouldn't be justified if it was about the non-trade.

Jay says he was lied to, but according to you they didn't talk to him or his agent. He "knew" they lied to him immediately after the trade. Again, Jay and his agent are the ones gaming this.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:29 AM
See this is what I'm hoping someone would say back to me. Ok they should have reached out better. Even if they did the way Cutler has acted I'm not sure things would be any different he'd still be miffed over trade talks.

Although that's a possibility, I really don't think so.

No one will argue that faults have been made on both sides. But the bottom line right now is that this is Mr. Bowlen's problem to fix now, and he's not doing it.

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:30 AM
They tried, he wouldn't answer the phone.

Bowlen tried eventually...Jay f'ed up there. But that was not immediately and McD was the one who should have been calling.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:30 AM
Translation: You're right, BI, I have no proof that Jay was lied to and he hasn't provided a shred of proof that he was lied to either.

[I don't care if Jay thinks he was deceived. If he doesn't have proof of it, he needs to shut his goddamn mouth and get to work. if he does have proof, let's ****ing see it. I don't think he has it.

Bolded the important parts...

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:31 AM
Jay says he was lied to, but according to you they didn't talk to him or his agent. He "knew" they lied to him immediately after the trade. Again, Jay and his agent are the ones gaming this.

The way I understand the story, Jay was in communication with the team. They didn't say anything to him about trades. Then, the story breaks, and the team cuts off contact with the Cutler camp.

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:31 AM
Because it's none of his business. GM's do this ALL THE TIME. They shop players ALL THE TIME and don't tell the players unless they're traded. THEY HAVE NO SAY unless they have a no-trade clause in their contract. This isn't something "new" in sports. The only thing new is Cutler thinking he's as good as "Manning, Big-ben" and all the other guys that he talked about not being traded.

Manning today? or Manning after three years? One comparison isn't that far-fetched...

you don't leave your franchise guy in the dark with rumors swirling around...

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:31 AM
I know I love being a part of my workplace and would feel severly betrayed if something similar to this episode took place.

Your work place is not like the NFL workplace. Not many jobs are. Unless there is a no-trade clause in a contract, ANY player can be traded at ANY time, and the players know it. If your job required you to sign a deal with similar stipulations, then you would have an idea of what you were getting into (or ought to, at any rate).

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:32 AM
Wow.

Are you sure about that?
Am I sure? Taco have you paid attention to sports in the last century? Babe Ruth was traded for a wad of cash. Players get traded and discussed in trades all the time and they have to go to teams they often would rather not play for. Shoot, Dre Bly hated it here and never wanted to come to Denver. Once you're under contract, the team can do whatever they want with you. You become a commodity. All the player can do is increase his value by playing well and get as much money as he can. In that sense, I don't blame Cutler or Cook, but I suppose they don't just want a new contract, they want to play for a new team as well.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:32 AM
The way I understand the story, Jay was in communication with the team. They didn't say anything to him about trades. Then, the story breaks, and the team cuts off contact with the Cutler camp.


This is as Klis reported it.

UberBroncoMan
03-15-2009, 12:33 AM
The way I understand the story, Jay was in communication with the team. They didn't say anything to him about trades. Then, the story breaks, and the team cuts off contact with the Cutler camp.

That's exactly what happened... and that decision to cut Cutler off was why he went to the media and why this all got out of hand. A completely insulting and pathetic decision by the Broncos FO.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:33 AM
They tried, he wouldn't answer the phone.

Where's your proof that they tried? Dates and times, please.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:33 AM
Your work place is not like the NFL workplace. Not many jobs are. Unless there is a no-trade clause in a contract, ANY player can be traded at ANY time, and the players know it. If your job required you to sign a deal with similar stipulations, then you would have an idea of what you were getting into (or ought to, at any rate).

You missed the point again.

(Hint: It's not about the team considering trading Cutler).

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:33 AM
Manning today? or Manning after three years? One comparison isn't that far-fetched...

you don't leave your franchise guy in the dark with rumors swirling around...

Eli was considered a bust during the pre-season of '07 by most circles. Hypothetical trade talks with him were widely circulated.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:35 AM
Bolded the important parts...

Yeah, well in any case I'm right because you give people the benefit of the doubt when no proof exists. That's how adults behave. There's no proof McD is being dishonest. None. So, any reasonable person should give him the benefit of the doubt. But you choose to assume guilt where there is no proof. Your position is unreasonable, sorry.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:35 AM
Am I sure? Taco have paid attention to sports in the last century? Babe Ruth was traded for a wad of cash. Players get traded and discussed in trades all the time and they have to go to teams they often would rather not play for. Shoot, Dre Bly hated it here and never wanted to come to Denver. Once you're under contract, the team can do whatever they want with you. You become a commodity. All the player can do is increase his value by playing well and get as much money as he can. In that sense, I don't blame Cutler or Cook, but I suppose they don't just want a new contract, they want to play for a new team as well.

You're making an argument that I don't care about. I know that trades happen all the time.

You said it was none of Jay's business. That's a different argument. I would argue that Jay is at least owed the courtesy of ownership recognizing that his future is his business.

BroncoMan4ever
03-15-2009, 12:36 AM
The question you have to ask is this.... Which person gave an interview, Jay or Josh??? If neither one of them did CBS sports is full of BS and whom ever did talk... if at all will catch the full wrath of the other.

exactly, without quotes from Jay or McDouche i am not buying this. it is more than likely true that he didn't show to not upstage Greek, but the news is making **** up to sell more papers.

the fact that it didn't go well and they don't have quotes from Jay is a giveaway that this is bogus. in basically every news story that broke about the rift between these guys there was a direct quote from Jay saying he was pissed, this is all just bs in my mind.

although if Jay doesn't show Monday then i will agree this is true

NFLBRONCO
03-15-2009, 12:36 AM
Although that's a possibility, I really don't think so.

No one will argue that faults have been made on both sides. But the bottom line right now is that this is Mr. Bowlen's problem to fix now, and he's not doing it.

Nice debate thanks. It's pretty clear Bowlen is ok with it.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:38 AM
This is as Klis reported it.

So where's the "I know they're lying" part? No "sources" have confirmed Cutler was being shopped, even from other teams. Yet Cutler and Cook stand on this.

Even if he was shopped, and even if they lied to him about it (I don't believe that's what happend, but just for fun.) Do you still believe his behavior is justified? Do you honestly think "that's how an adult professional should behave in this situation" when you see Cutler's behavior?

NFLBRONCO
03-15-2009, 12:38 AM
One thing this subject has done is taken heat off the bad D I bet they love it.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:38 AM
It's pretty clear Bowlen is ok with it.

And you don't think that's a problem?

UberBroncoMan
03-15-2009, 12:39 AM
Am I sure? Taco have you paid attention to sports in the last century? Babe Ruth was traded for a wad of cash. Players get traded and discussed in trades all the time and they have to go to teams they often would rather not play for. Shoot, Dre Bly hated it here and never wanted to come to Denver. Once you're under contract, the team can do whatever they want with you. You become a commodity. All the player can do is increase his value by playing well and get as much money as he can. In that sense, I don't blame Cutler or Cook, but I suppose they don't just want a new contract, they want to play for a new team as well.

Ruth was traded because he REFUSED to play until he got his salary doubled.

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/babe-ruth17.htm for a little info on fan reaction at the time etc.

Dre Bly signed a 5 year contract upon coming to Denver in the trade. Not really the year amount you'd do for a team you don't want to go to.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2816020

JCMElway
03-15-2009, 12:39 AM
Holy Fu**ing crapping sh**! Can we please just trade this guy and get it over with?

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:40 AM
So where's the "I know they're lying" part? No "sources" have confirmed Cutler was being shopped, even from other teams. Yet Cutler and Cook stand on this.

Even if he was shopped, and even if they lied to him about it (I don't believe that's what happend, but just for fun.) Do you still believe his behavior is justified? Do you honestly think "that's how an adult professional should behave in this situation" when you see Cutler's behavior?


I asked you first:

Let me get this straight... When the Broncos start off by blowing off the Cutler camp - no big deal. But when the Cutler camp returns this treatment, this is childish and outrageous.

Is this your position?

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:40 AM
Holy ****ing crapping sh**! Can we please just trade this guy and get it over with?


We have to trade him. There's no two ways around it in my mind.

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:40 AM
So where's the "I know they're lying" part? No "sources" have confirmed Cutler was being shopped, even from other teams. Yet Cutler and Cook stand on this.

Even if he was shopped, and even if they lied to him about it (I don't believe that's what happend, but just for fun.) Do you still believe his behavior is justified? Do you honestly think "that's how an adult professional should behave in this situation" when you see Cutler's behavior?

Myself nor Taco have stated that we approve of Cutler's actions. In fact, I think we're all dissapointed in them.

I don't see what's so hard for the team to fix the problem. Right now, I'm more concerned that they CANNOT fix it due to lack of leadership from the highest levels, and that really really bothers me.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:41 AM
You're making an argument that I don't care about. I know that trades happen all the time.

You said it was none of Jay's business. That's a different argument. I would argue that Jay is at least owed the courtesy of ownership recognizing that his future is his business.

It's not his business how the team builds the team and that means which personnel come and go. Players are informed they are traded when they are traded. This is true in every major sport. My point is that he's supposedly upset over something that isn't his job. It's no different than being mad about the uniform colors you have to wear. He's under contract and so he has no say and no right getting defiant when a team discuss their personnel and possible trades that they think will upgrade the team. Indeed every player should seem disposable so the entire situation can be analyzed objectively.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:41 AM
We have to trade him. There's no two ways around it in my mind.

Yep. Thanks to Jay choosing to be an infant, we probably will have to trade him.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:42 AM
Yeah, well in any case I'm right because you give people the benefit of the doubt when no proof exists. That's how adults behave. There's no proof McD is being dishonest. None. So, any reasonable person should give him the benefit of the doubt. But you choose to assume guilt where there is no proof. Your position is unreasonable, sorry.

This is the court of public opinion; not a court of law. And in PR cases like this, most of the "evidence" or "proof" isn't right out there in the open for everyone to see because when jockeying for position or "leverage" in the situation, it's not always the wisest course of action to display all one's cards.

Anyway, the front office has a problem. One they created through inexperience and mishandling. They need to fix it.
As to "any reasonable person should give McD the benefit of the doubt?" You do realize that a recent DPO poll showed that if one or the other has to go, the fanbase would prefer to keep Jay... by roughly a 2-1 margin. So you're claiming that a 2/3 majority are all "unreasonable"? LOL

Atwater His Ass
03-15-2009, 12:42 AM
We have to trade him. There's no two ways around it in my mind.

I'm still not there yet. Although every day this goes unresolved, I'm getting closer to that point of view.

bronco610
03-15-2009, 12:43 AM
HERE WE GO AGAIN !!!!!!!
:spit: :spit: :spit:

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:43 AM
Myself nor Taco have stated that we approve of Cutler's actions. In fact, I think we're all dissapointed in them.

I don't see what's so hard for the team to fix the problem. Right now, I'm more concerned that they CANNOT fix it due to lack of leadership from the highest levels, and that really really bothers me.

The team has stated they're ready to move. Cutler is the one being offended. He has supposedly taken offense where none was given. His ego slighted. If he can't get over it then it's his problem.

Again, I think that's all a red herring. I think once Bates was gone he had no intention of staying in Denver once Cook told him what some teams would sign him for. Could he hold out for more money? Yeah, but he probably wants to go somewhere else where they'll pay him more.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:44 AM
This is the court of public opinion
And it's one Jay is losing every day.

NFLBRONCO
03-15-2009, 12:44 AM
We have to trade him. There's no two ways around it in my mind.

Before I thought NO but, now I think your correct TJ. Makes me think it will be ongoing thing with these two unless they win alot of games in 09 which I don't see happening.

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:45 AM
Eli was considered a bust during the pre-season of '07 by most circles. Hypothetical trade talks with him were widely circulated.

relevance? is cutler a bust? did eli's owner call him "the guy around here?" Jay compares pretty favorably to Peyton after 3 seasons... no trade rumors around Indy at that time though

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:46 AM
This is the court of public opinion; not a court of law. And in PR cases like this, most of the "evidence" or "proof" isn't right out there in the open for everyone to see because when jockeying for position or "leverage" in the situation, it's not always the wisest course of action to display all one's cards.

Anyway, the front office has a problem. One they created through inexperience and mishandling. They need to fix it.
As to "any reasonable person should give McD the benefit of the doubt?" You do realize that a recent DPO poll showed that if one or the other has to go, the fanbase would prefer to keep Jay... by roughly a 2-1 margin. So you're claiming that a 2/3 majority are all "unreasonable"? LOL

You ever hear of the "tyranny of the majority?" I couldn't care less what the majority of the fanbase thinks. A majority of people in this country believe the Bible is literally true. You seriously going to hang your hat on the majority argument Hilarious!

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:47 AM
I'm still not there yet. Although every day this goes unresolved, I'm getting closer to that point of view.



We have two immature alpha dogs in the same pack. The pack won't function properly until one of them is out of the picture. Even if Jay was to stick around, Josh's next mistake would turn into a locker room issue with Jay on the team. Even with Jay off the team at this point, it may. But it's less of a chance if Jay is gone.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:47 AM
And it's one Jay is losing every day.

This will not be true if McD trades Jay.... particularly if we don't get good value for him. (like if McD makes a boneheaded trade and gets shafted by a more-experienced front office).

chaz
03-15-2009, 12:48 AM
Yeah, well in any case I'm right because you give people the benefit of the doubt when no proof exists. That's how adults behave. There's no proof McD is being dishonest. None. So, any reasonable person should give him the benefit of the doubt. But you choose to assume guilt where there is no proof. Your position is unreasonable, sorry.

Where is the proof Jay is lying?! There's no proof that either side is lying...

And actually, ADULTS reserve judgement when the facts are unclear...but it's ok you'll grow up someday

Popps
03-15-2009, 12:48 AM
It's totally for real. I think Josh should man up to his mistake.

His only mistake was not getting in front of a mic and saying the following...

"Jay Cutler may perhaps have an issue with understanding his place in the organization. We're working though that with him. He owes it to his teammates to come in and help lead this team, working in lock-step with the new staff. Trade discussions are part of the business and I'm sure Jay is aware of this. Hence, we expect Jay, as a professional, to arrive to camp on Monday to begin preparing to go out and win games this season."

That's it. McDaniels should have put his foot right on the throat of this whole ridiculous "controversy" from the get-go.

Aside from that, not begging Jay's forgiveness and making ludicrous promises aren't mistakes. They were intelligent, tactical maneuvers to see where Cutler's mind was at.

I think we have our answer.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:49 AM
This will not be true if McD trades Jay.... particularly if we don't get good value for him. (like if McD makes a boneheaded trade and gets shafted by a more-experienced front office).

You're wrong. A lot of people are fed up with Jay and are ready to move on without him if he can't be an adult and get with the program.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:49 AM
You ever hear of the "tyranny of the majority?" I couldn't care less what the majority of the fanbase thinks. A majority of people in this country believe the Bible is literally true. You seriously going to hang your hat on the majority argument Hilarious!

I'm going to laugh at your assertion that 66% of the fanbase are all "unreasonable".... too funny.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:51 AM
We have two immature alpha dogs in the same pack. The pack won't function properly until one of them is out of the picture. Even if Jay was to stick around, Josh's next mistake would turn into a locker room issue with Jay on the team. Even with Jay off the team at this point, it may. But it's less of a chance if Jay is gone.

The only one being immature is Jay. That's just the reality to any reasonable person. You just want to incorrectly spin it as McD being immature so you can say "See Bowlen is a gutless drunk shoulda kept Shanny!!!111"

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:51 AM
I asked you first:

Let me get this straight... When the Broncos start off by blowing off the Cutler camp - no big deal. But when the Cutler camp returns this treatment, this is childish and outrageous.

Is this your position?

I think McDaniels and Xanders fumbled the situation when they had two mouths saying two different things and that raised more questions than answers generated. McDaniels' infamous "no comment" was taken as a "yes" when it probably was his attempt to move the situation onto the GM as well as tell the press it's none of their bussiness.

However I don't believe they ever "owed" Cutler or his agent and explanation for a trade that didn't happen. I think all they had to say was "we will continue to look at a variety of ways to try and improve the team. When and if a player is traded, we will inform that player when such an event occurs."

I think the only time they need to talk to an agent is when something definitive happens in a trade and when they are negotiating a contract. If they don't answer the calls from an agent, and they were very busy with the multiple other signings at the time, I don't consider that an insult or childish behavior. I think not returning a call to your boss when he calls you twice is something that can get you fired.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:51 AM
You're wrong. A lot of people are fed up with Jay and are ready to move on without him if he can't be an adult and get with the program.

I don't think so. You think this forum has "blown up" in the past few months? That's nothing compared to what will happen when/if Jay is traded.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:52 AM
The only one being immature is Jay. That's just the reality to any reasonable person. You just want to incorrectly spin it as McD being immature so you can say "See Bowlen is a gutless drunk shoulda kept Shanny!!!111"

No. McD has not "manned up" and tried to fix his gaffe at all...

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:53 AM
I'm going to laugh at your assertion that 66% of the fanbase are all "unreasonable".... too funny.

Another phrase to familiarize yourself with..."whistling in the dark."

Besides, your little poll was a couple weeks ago. The tide has clearly been shifting away from Jay as the situation has become more clear.

Popps
03-15-2009, 12:53 AM
Sure he did. He allowed the leak to get to Jay through back channels before he let him know about it himself. l.

You don't ****ing KNOW that, Taco. How many times do we have to go over this?

First off, he didn't "allow" the leak. It's called a "leak" because it wasn't supposed to get out.

Beyond that, we don't know how much truth there is to ANY of this, or when ANY of this arose, meaning... how could McDaniels "apologize" to Jay Cutler before he even knew what the parameters of the deal were, or if there even WAS one?

As I said, you're basing your whole ridiculous premise on a he-said-she-said argument, picking and choosing the parts you want to believe.

You have NO IDEA if he "let it leak" to him, or if/when Jay should have been told anything.

Think about it, punchy... if it was leaked, it means Jay wasn't supposed to know, right? If it was leaked, McDaniels had NOTHING to do with it being leaked. So, if he went and told Jay something BEFORE these talks took place, or even right after... he'd be giving Jay information that he wasn't supposed to know.

It's like a dude cheating on his wife at a strip club and calling her on the way home before she could have possibly known anything. If his intent was to not tell her, why would he do such a thing?

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:53 AM
His only mistake was not getting in front of a mic and saying the following...

"Jay Cutler may perhaps have an issue with understanding his place in the organization. We're working though that with him. He owes it to his teammates to come in and help lead this team, working in lock-step with the new staff. Trade discussions are part of the business and I'm sure Jay is aware of this. Hence, we expect Jay, as a professional, to arrive to camp on Monday to begin preparing to go out and win games this season."

That's it. McDaniels should have put his foot right on the throat of this whole ridiculous "controversy" from the get-go.

Aside from that, not begging Jay's forgiveness and making ludicrous promises aren't mistakes. They were intelligent, tactical maneuvers to see where Cutler's mind was at.

I think we have our answer.



Hilarious!

I think it's funny that you can sit there and make these fantastical imaginations Josh had planned this all to test Cutler!

Seriously man - that's what you believe?

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 12:53 AM
No. McD has not "manned up" and tried to fix his gaffe at all...

He has nothing to "man up" about and didn't make a gaffe. Your saying so doesn't make it any less false.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:55 AM
No. McD has not "manned up" and tried to fix his gaffe at all...

Because he can't make Jay's hurt feeling go away nor should he try to. This is supposed to be a guy that is immune to insults on the field and performs in the clutch and he's showing the mental fortitude of a two year old. What if we drafted a QB in the first round? What would Jay do then? Demand a trade? Or he could go the Elway/Brees route and bust his ass to show them they're wrong.

UberBroncoMan
03-15-2009, 12:55 AM
No. McD has not "manned up" and tried to fix his gaffe at all...

That's never happening.

From this point onward, it is up to Jay to either suck it up and deal with the tyrant, or keep the **** up and get traded.

I personally am hoping he deals with it and stays our QB for the long haul.

I don't want to go back to the days of Brian and Jake.

Don't forget we had Shanahan who coached Steve Young and John Elway... and while he turned Brian and Jake into quality QB's he never had a guy like Cutler to take it to the next level.

I don't want to imagine being like that again.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 12:56 AM
You don't ****ing KNOW that, Taco. How many times do we have to go over this?

Actually, yes this is pretty well established fact that Cutler's camp found out about this whole thing because other agents were calling Bus Cook about it.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 12:56 AM
Hilarious!

I think it's funny that you can sit there and make these fantastical imaginations Josh had planned this all to test Cutler!

Seriously man - that's what you believe?

Yeah I don't buy that either. This was a result of a rookie GM and a rookie Head Coach not getting their crap together.

Popps
03-15-2009, 12:56 AM
We have two immature alpha dogs in the same pack. .

First off.... you have ZERO to back that up.

You have ZERO data.

McDaniels has never been accused of being "immature" at any stage of his career. Perhaps you're not clear on what it means to be a head coach.

HE IS THE MOTHER****ING ALPHA DOG, TACO!

For the love of friggin' Pete. You can't possibly be this clueless. You really can't.

So, to wrap up...

A. There's zero factual data to back up the idea that McDaniels is immature, and plenty of Cutler's own words/actions to indicate that HE is.

B. Head coaches in the NFL are Apha Dogs. Period.

Hope that helps.

UberBroncoMan
03-15-2009, 12:56 AM
Because he can't make Jay's hurt feeling go away nor should he try to. This is supposed to be a guy that is immune to insults on the field and performs in the clutch and he's showing the mental fortitude of a two year old. What if we drafted a QB in the first round? What would Jay do then? Demand a trade? Or he could go the Elway/Brees route and bust his ass to show them they're wrong.

Read my long ass post on page 3... McDaniels screwed this up from the get-go. Cutler could indeed end it though.

NFLBRONCO
03-15-2009, 12:58 AM
His only mistake was not getting in front of a mic and saying the following...

"Jay Cutler may perhaps have an issue with understanding his place in the organization. We're working though that with him. He owes it to his teammates to come in and help lead this team, working in lock-step with the new staff. Trade discussions are part of the business and I'm sure Jay is aware of this. Hence, we expect Jay, as a professional, to arrive to camp on Monday to begin preparing to go out and win games this season."

That's it. McDaniels should have put his foot right on the throat of this whole ridiculous "controversy" from the get-go.

Aside from that, not begging Jay's forgiveness and making ludicrous promises aren't mistakes. They were intelligent, tactical maneuvers to see where Cutler's mind was at.

I think we have our answer.

Other then Spygate and BB tree of coaches I have never heard press conf for drama like this from NE players vs BB. So why would any fan expect Josh who patterns his team like NE would he won't it's that simple like it or not.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 12:58 AM
Another phrase to familiarize yourself with..."whistling in the dark."

Besides, your little poll was a couple weeks ago. The tide has clearly been shifting away from Jay as the situation has become more clear.

Wrong... it was last week. And McD isn't taking any decisive action that could possibly stir people to his side. Sure, fans are getting very weary of the situation. But trading Jay would not go over well with the Bronco faithful...


He has nothing to "man up" about and didn't make a gaffe. Your saying so doesn't make it any less false.

The fact that he has a communication problem with his franchise QB shows that he did, in fact make a gaffe. And the fact that he's done absolutely nothing to alleviate the situation (instead making it worse) brings his leadership ability into question.

Popps
03-15-2009, 12:59 AM
Actually, yes this is pretty well established fact that Cutler's camp found out about this whole thing because other agents were calling Bus Cook about it.

Who's your "source?"

Beyond that, until you show me a transcript of the timeline for when what call was made... to who and from who... who initiated it and who killed it... you have no legs to stand on. You're just hoping it's this way because it suits your conspiracy theory.

Seriously. I hope you never sit on a jury, dude. I mean, you've got no concern for factual information. Your entire thesis is based on hoping something is true, and you're ready to burn people over it.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 01:01 AM
HE IS THE MOTHER****ING ALPHA DOG, TACO!

Yes, that's what I said. Are you even paying attention?

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:01 AM
Because he can't make Jay's hurt feeling go away nor should he try to. This is supposed to be a guy that is immune to insults on the field and performs in the clutch and he's showing the mental fortitude of a two year old. What if we drafted a QB in the first round? What would Jay do then? Demand a trade? Or he could go the Elway/Brees route and bust his ass to show them they're wrong.

Actually, it seems that every word out of McD's mouth makes the situation worse. The situation has been bungled in every possible way ever since the story broke.

Dexter
03-15-2009, 01:01 AM
You know what, I've remained pretty silent on this for awhile, but I really can't take this stupid bull**** anymore.

At this point we might have to trade Jay, but for those to call him a baby, and blame this whole situation on him are ignorant.

To blame this whole thing on McDaniels is stupid aswell.

There is no one innocent in any of this. What a craptastic circus show this has become. We've got irresponsible journalism on both sides citing "sources" when they might not even have them. People like Chris Mortenson speculating by pulling random thoughts of out their ass and using them as facts just has blown this whole thing up.

Who knows whats true who knows what isn't.


At this point I have to say **** everybody.

McDaniels went from having a good 2 years to get this team on a good path to having just one season. You ****ed yourself for being shady Josh, so **** you.

Cutler certainly hasn't been innocent, but even as a 3 year starter he's given a lot to this team and community. For that I salute Cutler, for everything else, **** you too.

Bowlen you gutless drunk! I don't even know what's going on with your drunk ass.


GET THIS **** OVER WITH.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 01:02 AM
Read my long ass post on page 3... McDaniels screwed this up from the get-go. Cutler could indeed end it though.

I don't think it was that screwed up to begin with! I think Cutler overreacted and I think he's making a mountain out of a mole hill. That's my point! I think only two things are possible. 1) Cutler is one of the most sensitive and immature adults in the sporting world and maybe in the last decade. Or 2.) This is all posturing to be traded and get more money. And the more this escalates over really nothing, the more offended he gets over meetings where nothing is said that is any way offensive, the more ridiculous it becomes that an adult could have feeling that hurt and be that sensitive, especially one that's played in the pros and SEC, the more I think it can only be the latter.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 01:02 AM
Who's your "source?"


Klis and Vic Lombardi - the two guys who have provided the most consistent and in depth information throughout this whole deal.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:02 AM
Hilarious!

I think it's funny that you can sit there and make these fantastical imaginations Josh had planned this all to test Cutler!

Seriously man - that's what you believe?

Absolutely not. I never said he "planned it" at all.

But, once things were in motion, McDaniels was smart enough to realize that this was a line being drawn in the sand by Cutler, and he handled that appropriately.

He IS the alpha-dog, kid. Whether you like it or not. Shanahan is gone... Cutler's a chess piece and Josh McDaniels runs this ****ing team.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:03 AM
That's never happening.

From this point onward, it is up to Jay to either suck it up and deal with the tyrant, or keep the **** up and get traded.

I personally am hoping he deals with it and stays our QB for the long haul.

I don't want to go back to the days of Brian and Jake.

Don't forget we had Shanahan who coached Steve Young and John Elway... and while he turned Brian and Jake into quality QB's he never had a guy like Cutler to take it to the next level.

I don't want to imagine being like that again.

It's looking more and more like we'll have a new QB before September.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:03 AM
Klis and Vic Lombardi - the two guys who have provided the most consistent and in depth information throughout this whole deal.

Really? I missed Vic's timeline. Where can I read that? I'm talking about the full transcript of what calls were made at what time, including the exact moment Cutler and his agent found out.

Without that, you're in fantasy land, brother.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 01:03 AM
Wrong... it was last week. And McD isn't taking any decisive action that could possibly stir people to his side. Sure, fans are getting very weary of the situation. But trading Jay would not go over well with the Bronco faithful...



The fact that he has a communication problem with his franchise QB shows that he did, in fact make a gaffe. And the fact that he's done absolutely nothing to alleviate the situation (instead making it worse) brings his leadership ability into question.

Wrong. It's Jay's leadership that is in question. He won't squash this like he could for the good of his teammates. He's being selfish. McD has only been doing his job. And is job isn't to suck up to Jay Cutler like you want him to. Sorry.

JCMElway
03-15-2009, 01:03 AM
This all may be a big blessing in disguise. Imagine if things had gone smoothly enough now, and this BS between McD and Cutler started during camp or even into the regular season. At least it's out in the open now so Cutler can get dealt and the team can move on.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:04 AM
It's looking more and more like we'll have a new QB before September.

Thank Jay Cutler for that. All he had to do was show up and get in line on Monday.

He can still do it.

But, he's Jay Cutler, so he probably won't.

ZONA
03-15-2009, 01:05 AM
I don't think anyone is necessarily proud of the way Jay has handled this up to this point, but the fact is the reason he feels the way he does is because of his perception that he was lied to and the team not owning up to that.

The is and has been in McDaniels court since day 1. He is the one that can end this. He is failing as a coach, supervisor, boss, whatever you want to call it.

Wrong. It's up to both to resolve it. How about they just forget the whole thing and just move on. Start talking about some new plays or something. Anything to get the attention back to on the field topics.

JCMElway
03-15-2009, 01:05 AM
It's looking more and more like we'll have a new QB before May.

Fixed it for you.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 01:06 AM
Actually, it seems that every word out of McD's mouth makes the situation worse.

Don't you find that odd? Have you looked at what he's actually said? Nothing's he's said is that "out of line." He could say "I like Chocolate ice cream" and then it would be leaked that Cutler "did not think the meeting went well." McDaniels' comments have been pretty low-key and standard for most coaching departments, and yet each comment makes Cutler more and more upset. You're already emotionally invested in him being Satan, so you of course think Cutler's justified. But take off the "he's a dirty cheatriot" glasses for a sec and tell me if the things he's said are really so terrible as to justify Jay's reactions. They aren't. Not remotely.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:06 AM
1) Cutler is one of the most sensitive and immature adults in the sporting world and maybe in the last decade. Or 2.) This is all posturing to be traded and get more money. And the more this escalates over really nothing, the more offended he gets over meetings where nothing is said that is any way offensive, the more ridiculous it becomes that an adult could have feeling that hurt and be that sensitive, especially one that's played in the pros and SEC, the more I think it can only be the latter.

Pretty much sums it up. It's fascinating to me that anyone would have trouble seeing that.

Give it time. It'll all come out in the wash, dude. Just watch.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:08 AM
Wrong. It's Jay's leadership that is in question. He won't squash this like he could for the good of his teammates. He's being selfish. McD has only been doing his job. And is job isn't to suck up to Jay Cutler like you want him to. Sorry.

No, I'm not wrong. It was McD's actions that spurred the entire conflict and if he had effectively addressed it, the problem could probably have been nipped in the bud before the story ever hit the national media. But now the situation has deteriorated until it looks like Cutler would rather do just about anything else rather than even deal with McD at all. If McD's job description was "to fubar the Broncos"... then he's doing a bang-up job.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:09 AM
Actually, it seems that every word out of McD's mouth makes the situation worse. .

Huh!!

You mean, like saying that they weren't going to trade Jay? Those words?

Or, that he looked forward to talking to Jay in person to patch it up?

Those words?

Or, are you talking about the unsubstantiated rumors that he might have dared to point out a flaw (GASP!) in Jay's game during a meeting?

How dare a coach do such a thing. Doesn't he know who Jay Cutler is?

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 01:09 AM
Funny thing is I'd be willing to place a wager that McD will win at least 8 games next season even without Cutler. If we trade him, I will be glad to make that bet with the first person to remind me of this post. I may even up the number of minimum wins depending on the terms of the trade.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 01:10 AM
Really? I missed Vic's timeline. Where can I read that? I'm talking about the full transcript of what calls were made at what time, including the exact moment Cutler and his agent found out.

Without that, you're in fantasy land, brother.


I didn't miss Vic's timeline. I followed it in real time. I've followed every article that he and Klis have posted on this. Together, they've woven a pretty solid picture of this situation. It's not anything that would sink in with you because the picture they paint shows Cutler reacting to the organization's fumbling of the situation. Certainly, they haven't let Cutler off the hook for his reaction. But for anyone who look for such things as cause and effect to form their opinions, these two have been money.

Dexter
03-15-2009, 01:11 AM
Funny thing is I'd be willing to place a wager that McD will win at least 8 games next season even without Cutler. If we trade him, I will be glad to make that bet with the first person to remind me of this post. I may even up the number of minimum wins depending on the terms of the trade.

Win 8 games, with that schedule with Chris Simms and our defense?

I wish.

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 01:11 AM
No, I'm not wrong. It was McD's actions that spurred the entire conflict and if he had effectively addressed it, the problem could probably have been nipped in the bud before the story ever hit the national media. But now the situation has deteriorated until it looks like Cutler would rather do just about anything else rather than even deal with McD at all. If McD's job description was "to fubar the Broncos"... then he's doing a bang-up job.

You're making it sound like Cutler had no choice but to get pissed off. Like he's an automaton and McDaniels is refussing to switch off the "im angry" switch. Poor Cutler. He didn't want to get mad but stupid, evil McDaniels made him!

Kaylore
03-15-2009, 01:13 AM
I didn't miss Vic's timeline. I followed it in real time. I've followed every article that he and Klis have posted on this. Together, they've woven a pretty solid picture of this situation. It's not anything that would sink in with you because the picture they paint shows Cutler reacting to the organization's fumbling of the situation. Certainly, they haven't let Cutler off the hook for his reaction. But for anyone who look for such things as cause and effect to form their opinions, these two have been money.

I know you think they're giving you gospel, but I think you are believing them because they're feeding you the side you want to here. I talk to some pretty in the know people too and there's more to it. Lombardi is getting most of his info from Cutler's camp and that's going to bias things heavily in his favor. I would also remind you that Lombardi said on the air just the other day the organization tells him little to nothing so basically you're hearing one side of it.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 01:14 AM
Win 8 games, with that schedule with Chris Simms and our defense?

I wish.

Well, if Cutler is traded, we can talk about a bet. I say we win at least 8 games regardless of Cutler's status.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 01:14 AM
You're making it sound like Cutler had no choice but to get pissed off. Like he's an automaton and McDaniels is refussing to switch off the "im angry" switch. Poor Cutler. He didn't want to get mad but stupid, evil McDaniels made him!

Wouldn't he be an automoton if he didn't get angry? ???

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:15 AM
Don't you find that odd? Have you looked at what he's actually said? Nothing's he's said is that "out of line." He could say "I like Chocolate ice cream" and then it would be leaked that Cutler "did not think the meeting went well." McDaniels' comments have been pretty low-key and standard for most coaching departments, and yet each comment makes Cutler more and more upset. You're already emotionally invested in him being Satan, so you of course think Cutler's justified. But take off the "he's a dirty cheatriot" glasses for a sec and tell me if the things he's said are really so terrible as to justify Jay's reactions. They aren't. Not remotely.

Yes, I do find it odd. But we aren't privy to transcripts of what was said; we've just gotten a paraphrase from the front office and reports that the conversation made the situation worse from Jay's POV. I don't necessarily buy that what was reported in the papers is all that was said. It does appear that McD is failing miserably at communicating with Jay, though, if everything he says makes things worse.

I have zero confidence in McD at this point. I believe he's too inexperienced to be a successful HC... the only thing he's done that I really like is bringing in Dawkins, and even at that, Dawkins isn't exactly a spring chicken. But I'm far from the only fan who's concerned about the chaos in the franchise... look at the number of fans who would... from the vantage point of today... prefer to go back to December and pretend this whole fiasco was just a bad dream.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 01:15 AM
I know you think they're giving you gospel, but I think you are believing them because they're feeding you the side you want to here. I talk to some pretty in the know people too and there's more to it. Lombardi is getting most of his info from Cutler's camp and that's going to bias things heavily in his favor. I would also remind you that Lombardi said on the air just the other day the organization tells him little to nothing so basically you're hearing one side of it.

Taco is going to believe whatever fits in with his preconceived notions. It's all about being right with Taco.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:18 AM
Huh!!

You mean, like saying that they weren't going to trade Jay? Those words?

Or, that he looked forward to talking to Jay in person to patch it up?

Those words?

Or, are you talking about the unsubstantiated rumors that he might have dared to point out a flaw (GASP!) in Jay's game during a meeting?

How dare a coach do such a thing. Doesn't he know who Jay Cutler is?

Since I wasn't a part of the conference calls, I won't speculate on what was or wasn't said. Reports are that the recent communications were ineffective in bringing the QB and HC back onto the same page, though.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 01:18 AM
I know you think they're giving you gospel, but I think you are believing them because they're feeding you the side you want to here. I talk to some pretty in the know people too and there's more to it. Lombardi is getting most of his info from Cutler's camp and that's going to bias things heavily in his favor. I would also remind you that Lombardi said on the air just the other day the organization tells him little to nothing so basically you're hearing one side of it.


I don't want to hear any slant. I just want to hear it straight. Klis and Lombardi are the two guys who have managed to get the best information. I've deduced at the first story that Lombardi was getting his information from the Cutler camp. And if you read Klis, you can deduce that he's getting his information through his Broncos sources. Between the two of them, they've woven a pretty tight picture.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:19 AM
Funny thing is I'd be willing to place a wager that McD will win at least 8 games next season even without Cutler. If we trade him, I will be glad to make that bet with the first person to remind me of this post. I may even up the number of minimum wins depending on the terms of the trade.

You have looked at our schedule, right?

Taco John
03-15-2009, 01:20 AM
It's all about being right with Taco.

Is there something wrong with being right?

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:21 AM
You're making it sound like Cutler had no choice but to get pissed off. Like he's an automaton and McDaniels is refussing to switch off the "im angry" switch. Poor Cutler. He didn't want to get mad but stupid, evil McDaniels made him!

That's not what I said at all. But if McD is incapable of communicating with his QB without making things worse, then something has to change. The team can't succeed when the HC and QB can't even talk on the phone without more controversy ensuing.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 01:22 AM
You have looked at our schedule, right?

You can't reliably judge schedules these days. Teams that look great going into the season end up sucking and teams that look terrible end up winning their division. There's way to much parity to judge a schedule this early. Like I said, we'll win at least 8 games next season, Cutler or no. Hell, we won 8 last season with the worse defense in franchise history. I really don't think that's going out on a limb.

SportinOne
03-15-2009, 01:22 AM
What's funny after reports like this is that everyone is at each other's throat when not ONE quote was referenced by the media..

I don't think Jay is going anywhere but i guess it's making the offseason move faster.

Dexter
03-15-2009, 01:23 AM
Well, if Cutler is traded, we can talk about a bet. I say we win at least 8 games regardless of Cutler's status.

I would hope you were right. I'm not ever going to bet against the Broncos. Its impossible for me to do so. But like I said, I wish.

BroncoInferno
03-15-2009, 01:23 AM
Is there something wrong with being right?

So long as you don't slant flimsy evidence to support your view, which is what you are doing and always do.

chaz
03-15-2009, 01:26 AM
So long as you don't slant flimsy evidence to support your view, which is what you are doing and always do.

ya, it's best to go the inferno way: no evidence? blindly pick a side and argue like hell!!

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:26 AM
Fixed it for you.

Week One happens in September; not May, but you're probably right.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 01:27 AM
So long as you don't slant flimsy evidence to support your view, which is what you are doing and always do.

The only thing I can do is go off of what the two most credible reporters have put on the table. I think they've both done a stellar job of collecting the facts.

SportinOne
03-15-2009, 01:27 AM
Don't you find that odd? Have you looked at what he's actually said? Nothing's he's said is that "out of line." He could say "I like Chocolate ice cream" and then it would be leaked that Cutler "did not think the meeting went well." McDaniels' comments have been pretty low-key and standard for most coaching departments, and yet each comment makes Cutler more and more upset. You're already emotionally invested in him being Satan, so you of course think Cutler's justified. But take off the "he's a dirty cheatriot" glasses for a sec and tell me if the things he's said are really so terrible as to justify Jay's reactions. They aren't. Not remotely.

I think it's 99% Cook. I had forgot that he was Favre's agent as well, and this whole time I have been thinking in the back of my head that this is just so Favre like, how everything is so secretive and blown out of proportion.

chaz
03-15-2009, 01:30 AM
Bus Cook needs a swift kick to the balls.... this situation is smelling more and more of sleazy agent and less and less like Jay

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:32 AM
You can't reliably judge schedules these days. Teams that look great going into the season end up sucking and teams that look terrible end up winning their division. There's way to much parity to judge a schedule this early. Like I said, we'll win at least 8 games next season, Cutler or no. Hell, we won 8 last season with the worse defense in franchise history. I really don't think that's going out on a limb.

Well, looking at the schedule, I'd say we can probably beat Cincinnati and Cleveland... probably the Raiders and Chefs at home. Maybe Baltimore. But I don't think we beat the NFC East teams ... I don't think we beat the Steelers. Pats? Yeah, right. (Like Belicheat isn't gonna do everything possible to avoid losing to McD) And the Colts and Bolts have had our number in recent years.

Do you really believe our defense is gonna improve that much? I'm not convinced.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:32 AM
Yes, that's what I said. Are you even paying attention?

No, you said we have TWO Alpha Dogs.

We have one.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:33 AM
Do you really believe our defense is gonna improve that much? I'm not convinced.

I can see how you'd come to that conclusion.

I mean, we're four weeks into free agency. Seems logical to make a definitive judgment at this point.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 01:34 AM
No, you said we have TWO Alpha Dogs.

We have one.



I think you put a lot of effort in trying to miss the point.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:35 AM
Bus Cook needs a swift kick to the balls.... this situation is smelling more and more of sleazy agent and less and less like Jay

Nah.

It's Jay AND his agent.

Same with Favre. Cook wasn't holding a gun to Favre's head and making him retire and unretire.

I'm sure Cook isn't holding a gun to Cutler's head making him act like a child.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:39 AM
I can see how you'd come to that conclusion.

I mean, we're four weeks into free agency. Seems logical to make a definitive judgment at this point.

Popps, we cannot replace 53 guys in one offseason. Not with quality players who will make an immediate difference. And now, even our offense (which was our strong point last year) looks shaky and like a very big question mark.

D-line is still our biggest area of need... and rookies on the line usually take time to develop...

How about explaining precisely why you believe so much in McD and the personnel he's brought in?

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:41 AM
No, Taco... no one missed any points...


We have two immature alpha dogs in the same pack.

Wrong.

We have one. Jay is a chess piece and McDaniels is his boss... and there's no data or past proof that he's "immature" in any way shape or form. In fact, most pros and coaches have applauded him in asserting himself in this situation. (I've already posted gobs of quotes and videos, so please let's not play the "liar" game, or then I'll have to call you out and make you look like a coward again.)

The pack won't function properly until one of them is out of the picture. .

Wrong... it won't function until Jay Cutler is out of the picture, or he assumes his proper role under McDaniels.

Even if Jay was to stick around, Josh's next mistake would turn into a locker room issue with Jay on the team. Even with Jay off the team at this point, it may. But it's less of a chance if Jay is gone.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but there's been no chatter from the players that anyone is on Cutler's side through all of this.

In fact, Dawkins came out and made some comments that sounded suspiciously like... "grow up and be a man, Jay."

So, again... I know you're hoping there's strife in the locker room, but there's absolutely no proof of that.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:44 AM
Popps, we cannot replace 53 guys in one offseason. Not with quality players who will make an immediate difference.

Who said we needed 53 players? I thought you were talking about the defense?

ONE player can make a massive impact on a defense, much less several good role players and a couple of impact players.

Ask Miami.

And now, even our offense (which was our strong point last year) looks shaky and like a very big question mark.


Question mark? Maybe. But, there are a lot of good pieces in place. A guy like Simms or Garcia could come in and be effective with that great line, great receivers and a solid running game.


D-line is still our biggest area of need... and rookies on the line usually take time to develop...


I agree, but remember... 3-4 gets it's "punch" from the OLBs. There are some interesting options in the draft, and the off-season isn't over yet.
I also think a few of our players may benefit from the switch, namely Dumervil... an intriguing prospect for OLB.

Popps
03-15-2009, 01:46 AM
How about explaining precisely why you believe so much in McD and the personnel he's brought in?


Well, I like his signings... though to say that "I believe so much in him" may be a stretch.

You have to keep in mind... half of the goofs around here are calling him a douche-bag and a failure with no data to base that upon. You're doing a lot of that yourself... claiming we'll be a failure next year when we haven't even freakin' drafted yet.

I simply said that I like who we've signed... I think we need to do more, and I'm excited about the draft. I also like the philosophy of the team he came from, and that he was bred in a culture of winning, just like Shanahan when he came into Denver.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 01:55 AM
Who said we needed 53 players? I thought you were talking about the defense?

The whole team is rebuilding... McD is actively going after a revamp of the offense as well. There's only a limited number of quality FA's available every year and when valuable FA dollars are wasted addressing an already-good area (long-snapper)... or RB's... or other offensive players, then that means we might have to address the defense via the draft (meaning untested rookies).

ONE player can make a massive impact on a defense, much less several good role players and a couple of impact players.

Ask Miami.

We have more "holes" in the defense than can be fixed that easily. IMO.

Question mark? Maybe. But, there are a lot of good pieces in place. A guy like Simms or Garcia could come in and be effective with that great line, great receivers and a solid running game.

I disagree on both Simms and Garcia. We do have a good line... if McD doesn't decide to trade some of them. We have one good WR (Royal; we can't depend on Brandon not being suspended by the league... and Royal's name has reportedly also come up in trade rumors), TE is shaky...RB isn't much better, particularly if McD trades Hillis.

I agree, but remember... 3-4 gets it's "punch" from the OLBs. There are some interesting options in the draft, and the off-season isn't over yet.
I also think a few of our players may benefit from the switch, namely Dumervil... an intriguing prospect for OLB.

Smoke and mirrors and potential. Maybe it will work. And maybe not. Also, we still have question marks on special teams... I'm not too thrilled with our punter or our kicker... and we also need a returner unless we're going with Royal again.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:01 AM
Well, I like his signings... though to say that "I believe so much in him" may be a stretch.

You have to keep in mind... half of the goofs around here are calling him a douche-bag and a failure with no data to base that upon. You're doing a lot of that yourself... claiming we'll be a failure next year when we haven't even freakin' drafted yet.

I simply said that I like who we've signed... I think we need to do more, and I'm excited about the draft. I also like the philosophy of the team he came from, and that he was bred in a culture of winning, just like Shanahan when he came into Denver.

And about half of the forum thinks he's doing OK even though there's no evidence to support that conclusion yet either. The tough schedule is primarily the reason why I don't look for playoffs or even a .500 year in '09.

I'm very disappointed in the way he's handled the entire Cutler thing. Letting the soap opera play for four days without an "official" announcement was inexcusable.

The FA signings are not terribly impressive with the exception of Dawkins... and I do not like the Patriot philosophy. At all.

arghemtee
03-15-2009, 02:07 AM
The whole team is rebuilding... McD is actively going after a revamp of the offense as well. There's only a limited number of quality FA's available every year and when valuable FA dollars are wasted addressing an already-good area (long-snapper)... or RB's... or other offensive players, then that means we might have to address the defense via the draft (meaning untested rookies).



We have more "holes" in the defense than can be fixed that easily. IMO.



I disagree on both Simms and Garcia. We do have a good line... if McD doesn't decide to trade some of them. We have one good WR (Royal; we can't depend on Brandon not being suspended by the league... and Royal's name has reportedly also come up in trade rumors), TE is shaky...RB isn't much better, particularly if McD trades Hillis.



Smoke and mirrors and potential. Maybe it will work. And maybe not. Also, we still have question marks on special teams... I'm not too thrilled with our punter or our kicker... and we also need a returner unless we're going with Royal again.

So wait.. McDaniels comes in here and tossed Jay Cutler, Tony Scheffler, Eddie Royal, and Peyton Hillis on trade block? (Rumor)

This guy is clearly insane. I am not sure how anyone can defend him and his decisions.

He is clearly unfit to be a head coach.

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:13 AM
I do not like the Patriot philosophy. At all.

Well, it's made them the most successful team of this era.... just like when Shanahan brought the 49ers philosophy to Denver. Just change the names, and it's the exact same story. So, I'm not sure why you're choosing to dislike it.

arghemtee
03-15-2009, 02:14 AM
Blueflame, How dare you!? You don't like our amazing signings? You are not a true Broncos fan.

/sarcasm

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:15 AM
So wait.. McDaniels comes in here and tossed Jay Cutler, Tony Scheffler, Eddie Royal, and Peyton Hillis on trade block? (Rumor).

Huh?

First off, all of those players are still with the team, so you're already off-base.

Second, when did he say he'd trade Royal? Hillis won't likely bring anything in trade, and I've heard nothing to make me believe we'll trade him outside of one goofy article, which was an OPINION, not a rumor.

Sheffler can go, as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of watching this guy limp off the field and wondering if he'll be able to play from game to game.

Taco John
03-15-2009, 02:15 AM
No, Taco... no one missed any points...

You did. But it's pointless to get into it. Other people understood the point I was making without the need for semantics.



So, again... I know you're hoping there's strife in the locker room, but there's absolutely no proof of that.

Actually, I've had back channel email communications with a couple of reporters now who have said that there is some concern in the locker room, with some falling on Jay's side, and others falling on McDaniels side - but no one willing to go on record about it for obvious reasons.

I think it shows how unreasonable your positions are when you say that I'm "hoping there's strife in the locker room."

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:16 AM
Blueflame, How dare you!? You don't like our amazing signings? You are not a true Broncos fan.

/sarcasm

Wow, you burned everyone, dude.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:16 AM
Well, it's made them the most successful team of this era.... just like when Shanahan brought the 49ers philosophy to Denver. Just change the names, and it's the exact same story. So, I'm not sure why you're choosing to dislike it.

Call it an inherent distaste for lying and cheating. Not certain why any parent would consider those traits OK. Most of us teach our kids that they're not.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:17 AM
Blueflame, How dare you!? You don't like our amazing signings? You are not a true Broncos fan.

/sarcasm

I know.The likes of LaMont Jordan are clearly the key to a championship.

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:18 AM
Call it an inherent distaste for lying and cheating. Not certain why any parent would consider those traits OK. Most of us teach our kids that they're not.

Don't bring children into this, you idiot. How ****ing stupid are you?

Are you drunk or something? Good god.

Aren't you supposed to be a moderator, and you're talking about people's kids?

BroncoMan4ever
03-15-2009, 02:18 AM
You can't reliably judge schedules these days. Teams that look great going into the season end up sucking and teams that look terrible end up winning their division. There's way to much parity to judge a schedule this early. Like I said, we'll win at least 8 games next season, Cutler or no. Hell, we won 8 last season with the worse defense in franchise history. I really don't think that's going out on a limb.

we only won 8 games last season because Jay was playing at a franchise record pace. take his play out of the equation and replace it with Simms or a rookie, or some journeyman QB who is looking for work(because that is what it will be if Jay is traded), and our 8-8 with Jay last season becomes a 3-13 without him.

take away Jay and next season we don't get near 8 wins.

do you really think Chris Simms, or a rookie, or current FA QB(Garcia, Leftwich or any other crap that is out there) are going to perform well enough to get us 8 wins? i wouldn't bet on them getting Denver 5 wins.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:20 AM
Huh?

First off, all of those players are still with the team, so you're already off-base.

Second, when did he say he'd trade Royal? Hillis won't likely bring anything in trade, and I've heard nothing to make me believe we'll trade him outside of one goofy article, which was an OPINION, not a rumor.

Sheffler can go, as far as I'm concerned. I'm tired of watching this guy limp off the field and wondering if he'll be able to play from game to game.

Cutler probably won't be with the team much longer. Everyone's heard the trade rumors re: Hillis and Shef.... and IIRC, Royal's name came up in trade rumors re: Julius Peppers.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:22 AM
Don't bring children into this, you idiot. How ****ing stupid are you?

Are you drunk or something? Good god.

Aren't you supposed to be a moderator, and you're talking about people's kids?

I was talking about my own kids (thought that was clear, too). ::) And no, I'm not drunk. The message I give my kids is that they shouldn't cheat and lie. That message would be undermined if I then told 'em that cheating and lying is OK if the Broncos do it, wouldn't it?

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:25 AM
I was talking about my own kids (thought that was clear, too). ::) And no, I'm not drunk.

Not certain why any parent would consider those traits OK. Most of us teach our kids that they're not.

Any parent? Doesn't sound like your own kids, to me.

"Most of us"

Really? Who are you excluding, there?

How about just having enough sense to drop that one.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:31 AM
Not certain why any parent would consider those traits OK. Most of us teach our kids that they're not.

Any parent? Doesn't sound like your own kids, to me.

"Most of us"

Really? Who are you excluding, there?

How about just having enough sense to drop that one.

Talk about a reach, Popps. We were talking about my not liking the Patriot philosophy... of the ends justify the means. Who else's kids would I possibly be talking about in the terms I used?

arghemtee
03-15-2009, 02:33 AM
Wow, you burned everyone, dude.

It is not a matter of burning.

You are so simple, just keep your blinders on. You are satisfied with these horrible free agent signings that do not help us at all. Instead Bowlen, McDaniels, and Xanders tossed their money into a retirement home.

BroncoMan4ever
03-15-2009, 02:34 AM
Who said we needed 53 players? I thought you were talking about the defense?

ONE player can make a massive impact on a defense, much less several good role players and a couple of impact players.

Ask Miami.

who says we got 1 guy who can make a massive impact let alone several guys who can make any impact. so far all we have brought in are aged veterans on their last legs and a long snapper. Dawkins might provide a vocal spark, but is he really any better than Lynch would have been last season? also with a 3-4 defense it isn't as necessary to have the Safety in the box acting as an extra LB, and he doesn't have the speed to help in coverage. Davis is seen as a stop gap guy. Reid is a ST player, Fields is a guy i have never even heard of until a couple weeks ago. Hill is just another Bly in my book. where is the major impact from that group?



Question mark? Maybe. But, there are a lot of good pieces in place. A guy like Simms or Garcia could come in and be effective with that great line, great receivers and a solid running game.

solid running game? i am sure Buckhalter will kick his injuries and be an all pro for us, or Torain will, or Young will make good on his 2000 yard season, or Arrington will prove to be more than a 3rd down back and return man, or Jordan will show he is better than his 3.6 YPC career average. if any of those things happen our running game will be super. lets us hope one of those things happens :pray:

and last i checked Weigman still isn't in a new deal, so who knows what our Center position will look like.


I agree, but remember... 3-4 gets it's "punch" from the OLBs. There are some interesting options in the draft, and the off-season isn't over yet.
I also think a few of our players may benefit from the switch, namely Dumervil... an intriguing prospect for OLB.

yes a 3-4 defense gets its "Punch" from it's OLBs, but those guys can't do anything, if the offensive line is continually getting passed the line and getting to the second level of the defense. the OLBs can't do their job, if they are having to take on Offensive lineman hea on every play. the line in front of them needs to be strong and capable of holding blocks so the LBs can read and react or pass rush. so yes the fact that our new HC overlooked the DL just like our last HC, and it is looking like out DL is going to be comprised of a lot of rookies and or scrubs from FA is worrisome.

these reasons make it all the more obvious that McDaniels had better stop dicking around and pray that Cutler decides to show, because without him this team and McDouche's career are ****ed.

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:35 AM
Talk about a reach, Popps. We were talking about my not liking the Patriot philosophy... of the ends justify the means. Who else's kids would I possibly be talking about in the terms I used?

A reach to me might be bringing children into the discussion in the first place.

We're talking about football, and there's plenty of accusations of "cheating" in Denver over the years, so you may as well give up that little charade.

Then again, you were really offended that Jake Plummer pinched a girl's butt in a club, but were totally cool with Griese driving around Denver drunk.

So, I suppose nothing should surprise me.

BroncoMan4ever
03-15-2009, 02:41 AM
I know.The likes of LaMont Jordan are clearly the key to a championship.

i agree. his 3.6 YPC career average is just what this team is missing.

or maybe it is Arrington on 3rd downs and in the return game, or Buckhalter if he doesn't sustain his season ending injury that will make us a dynasty just like the Cheatriots.

wow i feel so good knowing McDaniels is bringing in quality guys like this.

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:41 AM
who says we got 1 guy who can make a massive impact let alone several guys who can make any impact.

You need to read again, sport.

I said role players now... impact guys coming. (Hopefully)

Fields is a guy i have never even heard of until a couple weeks ago. .

That's your own issue to sort out.


solid running game? .

Did you watch any games when Hillis was healthy? If you did, you know that a talented back (and we have a couple, now)... will produce results with the line we have.


yes a 3-4 defense gets its "Punch" from it's OLBs, but those guys can't do anything, if the offensive line is continually getting passed the line and getting to the second level of the defense. .

Who said that's a foregone conclusion? Do you even know who'll be starting for us on the DL? Did you know Clady would be a stud before he came to Denver?


these reasons make it all the more obvious that McDaniels had better stop dicking around and pray that Cutler decides to show, because without him this team and McDouche's career are ****ed.

No it doesn't. It just illustrates that you have an unhealthy attachment to this quarterback to such an extent that you can't even discuss a defense without blathering on about him.

Honestly, man. You go to great lengths to make gloom and doom out of the most mundane ****. Why do you even bother. You can't possibly want this team to do well.

Just move on, like Blueflame. You guys should become Chargers fans together.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:42 AM
A reach to me might be bringing children into the discussion in the first place.
You did ask me why I don't embrace the Patriot philosophy... not my fault you didn't like the answer.

We're talking about football, and there's plenty of accusations of "cheating" in Denver over the years, so you may as well give up that little charade.
If they cheated, I don't approve of that either.

Then again, you were really offended that Jake Plummer pinched a girl's butt in a club,
Nope. Don't approve of that.

but were totally cool with Griese driving around Denver drunk.
Nope. Don't approve of that either.

So, I suppose nothing should surprise me.

Nothing surprises me either... particularly not when you're... as usual...wrong.

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:46 AM
You need to read again, sport.

I said role players now... impact guys coming. (Hopefully)



That's your own issue to sort out.



Did you watch any games when Hillis was healthy? If you did, you know that a talented back (and we have a couple, now)... will produce results with the line we have.



Who said that's a foregone conclusion? Do you even know who'll be starting for us on the DL? Did you know Clady would be a stud before he came to Denver?



No it doesn't. It just illustrates that you have an unhealthy attachment to this quarterback to such an extent that you can't even discuss a defense without blathering on about him.

Honestly, man. You go to great lengths to make gloom and doom out of the most mundane ****. Why do you even bother. You can't possibly want this team to do well.

Just move on, like Blueflame. You guys should become Chargers fans together.

Seems to me that you're the one who owns Chargers gear that you were offering to trade for Broncos stuff.... and they are pretty much the "home team" where you live....

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:51 AM
Y
Nothing surprises me either... particularly not when you're... as usual...wrong.

Yea, let's just try to have a little class in the future. Leave children out of the discussion, O.K. moderator?

When you respond to someone...

"I don't know why any parent"..." and you quote someone you know is a parent in your post, people just might get the wrong idea, O.K.?

Just use your head a little in the future. I'm sure this is where you go into your deliberately obtuse routine again, but let's just be a little smarter next time.

Popps
03-15-2009, 02:52 AM
Seems to me that you're the one who owns Chargers gear that you were offering to trade for Broncos stuff.... and they are pretty much the "home team" where you live....

Ummm, I live in LA, genius. I don't own any Chargers gear. That was a joke.

Good lord, you may actually be that stupid. I thought it was an act.

BroncoMan4ever
03-15-2009, 02:58 AM
Did you watch any games when Hillis was healthy? If you did, you know that a talented back (and we have a couple, now)... will produce results with the line we have.


ok Asshole, let's play. do you think if Hillis was going to be our man running the ball, we would have brought in 3 guys who play his position? would we be working our Rashad Jennings? would we have brought in Ward for a visit knowing he was asking for a big money deal? would his name have come up in trade rumors?

all those reasons tell me, McDaniels has no intention of letting Hillis have a chance at RB.


Who said that's a foregone conclusion? Do you even know who'll be starting for us on the DL? Did you know Clady would be a stud before he came to Denver?


well as it stands now, Peterson, Fields, and Thomas. wow that looks fierce. i'd hate to be on the offense that has to go up against that. but wait the draft is coming, so help is on the way in the form of ROOKIES

how often do rookie DL come in and from day one kick ass?

or maybe we can go through with the trade rumor that would get us Rodgers and Quinn from Cleveland for Cutler, but then our offense would suck. but at least McDouche would be happy with a guy familiar with the Patriots offensive system, instead of a 25 year old pro bowler.


No it doesn't. It just illustrates that you have an unhealthy attachment to this quarterback to such an extent that you can't even discuss a defense without blathering on about him.

No, this shows that i have faith in the QB who has carried the team on his shoulders the past 2 seasons over a guy with 3 months of experience in his current job.

you are making yourself into the Mane's very own Mel Kiper. bashing Jay for who knows what reasons and finding no fault in the Patriot ways.


Honestly, man. You go to great lengths to make gloom and doom out of the most mundane ****. Why do you even bother. You can't possibly want this team to do well.

Just move on, like Blueflame. You guys should become Chargers fans together.

being a realist makes me a doom an gloom guy.

ok, so tell me. we go into next season with Simms as our starting QB. Buckhalter is our starting RB and Arrington is a 3rd down back. Marshall is suspended the 1st half of the season, Scheff is gone, Royal, Gaffney and a concussion prone Stokley are our receivers

on the opposite side of the ball Peterson, Fields and Thomas are our DL. Boss, DJ, Davis, and Doom are our LB's, Dawkins, Bailey, Hill are our secondary. and some rookies for depth. how well do you think we will perform. that looks like a team last years squad would destroy.

now Popps Kiper, why don't you move along. i think it's past your bedtime

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 02:59 AM
Yea, let's just try to have a little class in the future. Leave children out of the discussion, O.K. moderator?

When you respond to someone...

"I don't know why any parent"..." and you quote someone you know is a parent in your post, people just might get the wrong idea, O.K.?

Just use your head a little in the future. I'm sure this is where you go into your deliberately obtuse routine again, but let's just be a little smarter next time.

Know what? I can talk about my kids anytime I want to. Your stretch to try to suggest a "family smack" violation was so much BS it isn't even funny. I clearly was not referring to your kids. Also, if you're going to interact with me, I prefer not being sworn at... and the minute namecalling comes into the exchange, I pretty much feel I've already won the debate.

montrose
03-15-2009, 02:59 AM
Accountability is not something that this team lacked.

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/086K0m7crrayt/500x.jpg

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 03:02 AM
Ummm, I live in LA, genius. I don't own any Chargers gear. That was a joke.

Good lord, you may actually be that stupid. I thought it was an act.

I know exactly what it was... but suggesting that just because someone questions an inexperienced coach, they're going to hop on a division rival's bandwagon is the lamest of messageboard ploys.

You may notice that I refrained from returning the insults....

Popps
03-15-2009, 03:05 AM
Know what? I can talk about my kids anytime I want to. Your stretch to try to suggest a "family smack" violation was so much BS it isn't even funny. I clearly was not referring to your kids. Also, if you're going to interact with me, I prefer not being sworn at... and the minute namecalling comes into the exchange, I pretty much feel I've already won the debate.

Tell you what, I won't swear... and you don't talk abut people's kids, which is clearly what you were doing.

"I don't know why ANY PARENT".... quoted to another forum member who you know is a parent, and in disagreement with you is a little transparent.

The only reason name-calling came into the debate is because you chose to start it by being a ####, and talking about children.

O.K. moderator?

Be a little smarter next time.

Thanks a bunch. :)

cutman0122
03-15-2009, 03:08 AM
Dude you realize proof doesn't matter right? Hence why I said perception. The fact is Cutler feels that way about it, and it's up to McD to set it straight with Cutler about what went down and resolve those issues. He either can't or chooses not to do that. And for someone in a leadership position such as head coach, I find that VERY disturbing and my confidence in McD is pretty much non-existant at this point.

I get the feeling that a lot of you people have never had to manage anyone in a work setting. I manage about 20 people in a fast paced, high stress work place. When issues such as these come up, I deal with them immediately for just the reasons that we are seeing happening now. It's pretty obvious most here don't have to deal with those types of things ever. It's not really about who's right or wrong, it's about authority figures (management, w/e) taking the lead and fixing the problem (i'm looking at you Mr. Bowlen).


Again. McD listening and considering trade offers for Cutler IS NOT THE ISSUE. He has a disgruntled employee that feels like he's not getting a fair shake from his employers. Bowlen needs to step in and take care of this.

I'm sorry you idiots can't realize that it's not about bowing down to Jay. I don't know how many times myself and others can say that and how long you are going to choose to ignore the core issues and keep your head in the sand playing the he said she said game.

Spot on!

cutman0122
03-15-2009, 03:12 AM
Correct. The only thing we know at this point, is that the Broncos have a disgruntled employee (a high profile one nonetheless) and they can't handle the situation.

Wether you all want to beleive this is Jay's fault McD's fault, doesn't matter. Fact is, this is hurting the Bronco franchise both inside and out.

The blame starts at the top (Mr. Bowlen) and **** rolls down hill.



Dude, you make too much sense!:thanku:

BroncoMan4ever
03-15-2009, 03:22 AM
Dude you realize proof doesn't matter right? Hence why I said perception. The fact is Cutler feels that way about it, and it's up to McD to set it straight with Cutler about what went down and resolve those issues. He either can't or chooses not to do that. And for someone in a leadership position such as head coach, I find that VERY disturbing and my confidence in McD is pretty much non-existant at this point.

I get the feeling that a lot of you people have never had to manage anyone in a work setting. I manage about 20 people in a fast paced, high stress work place. When issues such as these come up, I deal with them immediately for just the reasons that we are seeing happening now. It's pretty obvious most here don't have to deal with those types of things ever. It's not really about who's right or wrong, it's about authority figures (management, w/e) taking the lead and fixing the problem (i'm looking at you Mr. Bowlen).

Again. McD listening and considering trade offers for Cutler IS NOT THE ISSUE. He has a disgruntled employee that feels like he's not getting a fair shake from his employers. Bowlen needs to step in and take care of this.

I'm sorry you idiots can't realize that it's not about bowing down to Jay. I don't know how many times myself and others can say that and how long you are going to choose to ignore the core issues and keep your head in the sand playing the he said she said game.

:thumbs:

dude i completely agree. as HC it was McDaniels duty to squash this crap the weekend the news was leaked, and if he was too stupid or didn't care enough to, the duty fell the Bowlen to smooth things over before everything became contentious between the parties involved and other players and coaches began to weigh options and take sides. listening to the offer was not a bad thing, but once it got out and didn't happen he needed to handle it, and he decided to wait over a week before he did anything

McDaniels stupidity and inexperience are the problems here. i agree you don't need to kiss Jay's ass to make the situation right, but he still needs to be assured of his place on the team.

with Mcaniels basically telling Jay he is expendable, he could be setting him up for failure similar to how Shanahan set Plummer up for failure by drafting his replacement the offseason following an AFCCG appearance.

with every mistake, or loss even if not Jay's fault, he is going to be looking over his shoulder waiting for McDaniels to finally push him aside. as a QB he needs the assurance of the coach that he is the man. if Jay is retained and he is expected to learn a new system, and carry the team again, he needs to know that he isn't going to be tossed aside when things get rough. the constant strain on a QB like McDaniels is putting Jay through is what turns a good QB into a Rex Grossman, David Carr or Joey Harrington.

Broncobiv
03-15-2009, 03:22 AM
I hope all of the drama in here doesn't potentially take away from the upcoming Survivor game!

Blueflame
03-15-2009, 03:23 AM
Tell you what, I won't swear... and you don't talk abut people's kids, which is clearly what you were doing.

"I don't know why ANY PARENT".... quoted to another forum member who you know is a parent, and in disagreement with you is a little transparent.

The only reason name-calling came into the debate is because you chose to start it by being a ####, and talking about children.

O.K. moderator?

Be a little smarter next time.

Thanks a bunch. :)

My meaning was clear... but as is typical, you incorrectly restated what you thought I said and then beat the crap out of a strawman that was never what I said at all. I'm not certain you've ever been right about me... even once.

It is not "on me" that you read my post wrong.

Hulamau
03-15-2009, 03:45 AM
Hilarious!

".... oh, and I'm wondering if you need me to wash your car or perhaps you'd like to borrow my wife? Beyond that, I'd just like to thank you for the opportunity to be a part of your franchise. Mr. Bowlen and I are forever in your debt, and we look forward to being humble underlings, going forward. Please let me know when you'd like to start conditioning and practice, and I'll let the team know. I would like to keep my whistle, if possible... but I say that with great respect, so please don't take that wrong....."

:-) :peace:

Hulamau
03-15-2009, 04:01 AM
Nah.

It's Jay AND his agent.

Same with Favre. Cook wasn't holding a gun to Favre's head and making him retire and unretire.

I'm sure Cook isn't holding a gun to Cutler's head making him act like a child.

That's no doubt True, Jay can decide he's heading off a cliff at any time and pull up ... just short of going over the edge ... yet I wouldn't be surprised if Bus Cook isn't greasing the wheels and feeding a new blueprint of clever ways to get back at the Broncos for daring to knock him down a notch or two off the ivory tower of untouchability

azbroncfan
03-15-2009, 04:27 AM
It's totally for real. I think Josh should man up to his mistake.

The funny thing is the bronco homers are the only one's blaming Josh. No former player, coach has supported him one bit and say he is an immature baby.

azbroncfan
03-15-2009, 04:43 AM
I was talking about my own kids (thought that was clear, too). ::) And no, I'm not drunk. The message I give my kids is that they shouldn't cheat and lie. That message would be undermined if I then told 'em that cheating and lying is OK if the Broncos do it, wouldn't it?


Well are you looking past the draft picks Denver lost for the creative financing over the SB runs? Or you must not consider it cheating like the league did.

ol number 7
03-15-2009, 04:45 AM
Don't let the screen door pop your ass on the way out, Jay. **** his prima donna ****. Anyone taking his side puts individuals before the team, period.

Question number 1 Has Cutler won a playoff game.

Question number 2 What is Jay's record in december

Question number 3 Does Jay think if he is traded he would go anywhere that he would want or desire to go to. Do you think he'll go to New England , Dallas, Indy or the Giants.

Question number 4 Is Phillip Rivers favorite part of the day reading the Denver Post online every morning and saying Right on Man.

Question number 5 Does he secretly want to ensure he plays an early game every Thanksgiving.

Be nice or Jay may be Roaring for his turkey dinner.

Hulamau
03-15-2009, 04:53 AM
The proof that Josh McDaniels screwed this thing up is the fact that this is a story at all. You might not know it - but I promise you that he does.

Taco, I don't doubt at all That Josh made some mis-steps here, and seeing how things turned out in the proposed trade, I suspect he rather do a lot of that over again, although with this deeper knowledge of Jay's whiny ass nature he might have worked even harder to make the Cassel thing happen up front!

And ANY coach coming into a situation like this cold, following a 'Coach for Life' institution, no matter what his age, 33 or 60 is bound to make a few FUBARS trying to revamp an entire team with as many holes as we have. But the thing that gets me is that Jay has consistently been the one keeping this story alive with his inappropriate reactions, REGARDLESS of what McD did or didn't do in the beginning.

Plus, no one here has any idea that McD did not go over exactly what happened in the trade issue with Jay, In fact both Bronco sources quoted on the conference call made a point that ALL QUESTIONS WERE DISCUSSED AND ANSWERED!

McD may or may not have been able to use a little more tact and ball-rubbing at some point in these talks, Maybe he polished Jays Knobbies to a bright shinny glean?! We don't know. I certainly cant imagine during the multiple hours they have met recently, Jay and Cook have not had ALL the opportunity they wanted to ask and probe Josh up one side and down the other about anything they had on their minds?!

If, during all of this, McD also made it a clear point in style and content to show Jay that he is the boss here and that Jay, obviously badly needing such instruction, is a highly-valued employee, but dispensable employee no less, IF and WHEN the good of the team make that worthwhile to pursue, then that is all very good too!

And if McD in all those hours found time to squeeze in a few coaching suggestions and overall "Way things are done around here now" pointers, then all the better!

First it Jay thinks McD lied and is upset...

Now, according to reports, Jay didn't like having McD give him some football advice .... Jay puts his home up for sale two days before his face to face with Josh in what is OBVIOUSLY a " **** You" message & PR stunt aimed at the Broncos (and perhaps a Bus Cook promo to the rest of the league FO's looking for a new QB to gets your wallets opened and pencils sharpened).

This could all be true even if he does plan on sticking around .. And now yet another meeting goes Sour and for sure a pattern is starting to emerge from the Cutler camp of refusing to find any common ground.

Not a good development under any circumstance. But if this keeps up Cutler is Out-a-here pronto.

Dedhed
03-15-2009, 04:59 AM
Does make you wonder if the meeting Monday is too address the team about Cutler's future.

The meeting Monday is a line in the sand. McDaniels addresses the team, and says: "look around men, these are the people who you will win Championships with."

He reinforces his vision of team unity, and the fact that Champions are built by always putting the team first. If Cutler isn't there to look his team mates in the eyes, he'll lose considerable respect from his team mates.

If he does show up, there will be ample opportunity for veterans to get in his ear and tell him how it is.

This is a move to get things out on the table as soon as possible so the whole team can see whether they're moving forward with Cutler or without him.

rad
03-15-2009, 05:01 AM
Sure he did. He allowed the leak to get to Jay through back channels before he let him know about it himself. That's a huge gaffe that is probably going to cost this organization the equivalent of a first round draft pick in overall value, and set us back at least a year maybe two.

A simple phone call.

Why should a coach have to call a player to let him know he took a phone call regarding a trade?

The biggest thing was "lying" about it. That was Jay's issue.

Hulamau
03-15-2009, 05:23 AM
You're absolutely right about the fact that there's nothing wrong with listening to trade offers. I'd even go so far as to say that there's nothing wrong with him even initiating them. Where he failed (and he did fail) is by not executing on a trade, and failing that, not being the first person to communicate with the player about the situation before the news reached him through back channels.

[I[/I]


I agree with you on this part Taco, but how do you know McD hasn't already said:

"Jay look I'm sorry I didn't get to you first to explain what was going on ( if that is what happened in any event) before it hit the rumor mill, etc etc" "But this is NOW and we are going forward and I want you as our QB and look forward to seeing you here on Monday as a leader of this team as we kick off the new season!"

I would be really surprised if some version of the above statement from Josh to Jay wasn't given so far!

No where is it written or implied that he did not say that. In fact it IS written several places that Every thing was covered and a lot of back and forth discussion happened. Do you imagine in all of this McD was just a ROBOT saying: "J..A..Y ... C..U..T..L..E..R ... I ... A..M ...T..H..E ..B..O..S..S....A..N..D....I .....O.W.N ...Y.O.U ...B..O.W ...D.O.W.N...T.O...Y.O.U.R...G.O.D !

I mean come on, none of the reported leaks after the phone call and private meeting say ANYTHING about Jay still being pissed that he was lied too or any of that. Its all been.. Jay didn't like the tone, and that he was told he was an employee and was not above trading if the deal would make the Broncos better long term ... and now that He objected being Coached too!

Its time to drop this "being lied to" life-line the Culter-suckers are clinging to to continue support of him as one new piece of news after another is painting a worse and worse picture of Jay and his apparent lack of maturity and basic character.

elsid13
03-15-2009, 05:41 AM
[I[/I]

"I mean come on, none of the reported leaks after the phone call and private meeting say ANYTHING about Jay still being pissed that he was lied too or any of that. Its all been.. Jay didn't like the tone, and that he was told he was an employee and was not above trading if the deal would make the Broncos better long term ... and now that He objected being Coached too!

Its time to drop this "being lied to" life-line the Culter-suckers are clinging to to continue support of him as one new piece of news after another is painting a worse and worse picture of Jay and his apparent lack of maturity and basic character.

Since Jay has not come out a said anything beside he shocked and wants to play in Denver what bad picture is coming to light? All we know that Jay went into the conference call apparently thinking that all the issues would be on the table, and got a lecture of what he was doing wrong and need to improve on. Include the BS that no player is untouchable. Come on we all know that unless have another potential franchise starting QB on hand, successful QBs are pretty much not traded and are not regular employees.
Jimmy Jones used to say there were players and there were players. Even Coughlin hard ass that he was allowed his stars to bitch and complaining to the media and didn't trade them because of talent.

We do know that Bowlen said he wasn't going to be traded.

And this last meeting no one knows what happened, all was said that they meet and didn't go well. Does well mean the weren't holding hands or were they yelling at each other?

Dendave
03-15-2009, 05:42 AM
here is what the Detroit paper is saying about it

http://www.freep.com/article/20090315/COL08/903150455/1048/SPORTS/Jay+Cutler+fiasco+reeks+of+Millen

Jay Cutler fiasco reeks of Millen

Matt Millen lives!

The bumbling football chief executive apparently now resides in Denver, his common sense blurred from a Rocky Mountain high. How else can anyone explain the possibility that the Broncos might once again place quarterback Jay <NOBR id=itxt_nobr_1_0 style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Cutlerhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif</NOBR> (http://www.freep.com/article/20090315/COL08/903150455/1048/SPORTS/Jay+Cutler+fiasco+reeks+of+Millen#) on the trading block?
The Broncos can't be that stupid, can they? The Lions certainly hope so.
There remains a feud between Cutler and new Broncos head coach Josh McDaniels. The quarterback's in a huff, outraged that McDaniels considered trading him in an effort to land his former New England protégé, Matt Cassell. The team reportedly told Cutler during a fence-mending conference call last week to "get over it" and grow up.
Cutler should grow up. His record as the Broncos' starting quarterback is 17-20. He's in no position to make any demands, but the Broncos cannot arrogantly dismiss a good quarterback who has already matured beyond his NFL growing pains.
Cutler isn't a great quarterback. He's not Peyton Manning. He's not Tom <NOBR id=itxt_nobr_5_0 style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Bradyhttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/mag-glass_10x10.gif</NOBR> (http://www.freep.com/article/20090315/COL08/903150455/1048/SPORTS/Jay+Cutler+fiasco+reeks+of+Millen#). He's not one of the top five QBs in the league. Manning, Brady, Drew Brees, Carson Palmer and Ben Roethlisberger rank ahead of him. Cutler sits among that second tier with Donovan McNabb, Philip Rivers, Eli Manning and Matt Hasselbeck.
There are legitimate concerns regarding his emotional resilience. He's pouting right now. That won't resonate well within the locker room. There's also some Joey Harrington-aloofness within him. He's reportedly not terribly close to any of his teammates, heightening internal worries that such distance means he's not necessarily the right guy you want in the foxhole.
The Broncos have legitimate doubts because they're approaching the second half of Cutler's six-year contract. This is when bona fide stars have their contracts renegotiated.
The Lions should do whatever necessary in trading for Cutler. If it costs them the 20th overall pick in the first round and one of their two third-round picks, do it.
There are no guarantees that Cutler would finally be the long-sought franchise answer at quarterback. He could be the second coming of Harrington, especially if he's indeed as emotionally fragile as the Broncos fear.
But he's worth the risk.
If a team is dumb enough to trade a 26-year-old quarterback coming off a 4,000-yard passing season, then the Lions should be an eager and willing beneficiary of such Millen-esque stupidity.

rad
03-15-2009, 05:57 AM
Where's your proof that they tried? Dates and times, please.

You're a ****ing idiot.

backup qb
03-15-2009, 06:02 AM
Where have you gone Mike Shanahan.....bronco nation turns its lonely eyes to you, ooh ooh ooh.....

backup qb
03-15-2009, 06:03 AM
My gut feeling thinks he's dealt week of the draft.

bpc
03-15-2009, 06:27 AM
The ultimate F up is that this stupid incident ever came up, ruining our relationship with Jay.

The 2nd worst deal is now with all this hem-hawing around, the true value of Jay is going to be shot because teams KNOW that the situation is desperate and they are going to low-ball when possible in trying to trade for him. Now there is a deadline to make the move. As it gets closer to draft day, our time is running short.

I'm to the point now where I know the relationship is ruined, Jay will not be in Denver and in the end, we're not going to get maximum value for him when he's traded. He's a huge cluster f all the way around.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-15-2009, 06:34 AM
The ultimate F up is that this stupid incident ever came up, ruining our relationship with Jay.

The 2nd worst deal is now with all this hem-hawing around, the true value of Jay is going to be shot because teams KNOW that the situation is desperate and they are going to low-ball when possible in trying to trade for him. Now there is a deadline to make the move. As it gets closer to draft day, our time is running short.

I'm to the point now where I know the relationship is ruined, Jay will not be in Denver and in the end, we're not going to get maximum value for him when he's traded. He's a huge cluster f all the way around.

Yes, the initial answering of the phone was a major screw up. Listening to a Herschel Walker deal was a terrible, terrible thing. How dare McD think about making this team better with a quarterback who already knows his system and who won 11 games last year! How terrible!

But your boyfriend Jay Cutler is keeping this story alive at every single turn by talking constantly about how upset he is, putting his house on the market, not showing up to the roast of Greek last night, etc etc etc. He is fueling speculation, and he wouldn't be doing that if he wanted to be a part of this team.

Maybe he can go to USC and be with his BFF Bates, or maybe he can go hang out at Shan's mansion until he coaches again and then go with him. But believe it: he's not coming back to Denver.

I'm not happy about this. I love Jay Cutler. I want him to be a Bronco for Life. I have his jersey hanging in my closet. But at this point, do you really believe he's mature enough/coachable enough to play for this team anymore?

bpc
03-15-2009, 06:59 AM
Listen, the problem is this whole situation was handled by a bunch of amateur's. How many times did Shanahan have trades leaked? Dove Valley was locked down when Shanny was in town, that's why the media wanted him out. They didn't get the info they wanted to write their papers and when they did, they were too late. Champ Bailey/Clinton Portis ring a bell? That story didn't come up until the deal was already in place. Imagine that, a head coach who could work COVERTLY behind the scenes! Brilliant. Not McFUGGIT. He's hatcheted ever issues he's been faced with in his short 3 months here. He couldn't even complete a press conference without sounding like an idiot in a 7th grade public speaking class.

Now you have McFuggit who blows every decision and choice, every chance he gets. Anything that goes down in Denver is immediately linked the press and sensationalism is rampant.

Do I blame Denver for listening to a trade offer? No, but I do know there is more than meets the eye here, especially on the McDaniels side. There was no "WALKER type deal" that you just pointed out. Only a far inferior QB to the one we have that floated in almost a straightup trade.

The situation is what it is now. The loyalty is fractured between Denver and Cutler. It probably is not fixable. Damaged in the process is the long term future for the Broncos and also trade aspirations as the media salvos between both parties have gone to many rounds. The situation is now DESPERATE and teams will know this moving forward.

I squarely put this on the shoulders of McF:UC*tard and the idiot regime in place led by Bowlen. Where the f has Bowlen been by the way? He could have ended any controversy that weekend when it all blew up by saying nothing was happening to Jay, he's in Denver, he'll be playing in Denver... bam.

Colonel Xanders is no where to be found. He's an idiot too. A puppet head who's having his strings pulled by McBastard because Pat didn't want to technically give too much power to the new HC a la Shanahan.

The writing on the wall says this all is going to end painfully for the Broncos and sadly, for the fans. It will become even harder to watch as Cutler and Shanahan go on to have a lot of success in other locations while this franchise is on its way to the bottom of the AFC and the AFC West.

Broncoman13
03-15-2009, 06:59 AM
Where do you get a Herschel Walker type deal? The fact of the matter was the Broncos were giving up #12 and Jay Cutler. In return they were going to receive Cassel, #18 and the Bucs 3rd round pick. That means we were basically trading Cutler for Cassel straight up. Please explain mouseguy, where is the Herschel in that trade?

Yes, the initial answering of the phone was a major screw up. Listening to a Herschel Walker deal was a terrible, terrible thing. How dare McD think about making this team better with a quarterback who already knows his system and who won 11 games last year! How terrible!

But your boyfriend Jay Cutler is keeping this story alive at every single turn by talking constantly about how upset he is, putting his house on the market, not showing up to the roast of Greek last night, etc etc etc. He is fueling speculation, and he wouldn't be doing that if he wanted to be a part of this team.

Maybe he can go to USC and be with his BFF Bates, or maybe he can go hang out at Shan's mansion until he coaches again and then go with him. But believe it: he's not coming back to Denver.

I'm not happy about this. I love Jay Cutler. I want him to be a Bronco for Life. I have his jersey hanging in my closet. But at this point, do you really believe he's mature enough/coachable enough to play for this team anymore?

Cito Pelon
03-15-2009, 07:01 AM
This board has been over this a hundred times, and you're still bringing up the same fallacies that you were yesterday and the day before that... For some reason, you think Jay is upset that his name came up in trade talks, and give absolutely no creedence to his own words...


"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while." Cutler added that after the proposed deal spread through the Internet, the team cut off communication with Cook.

Let's see, they cut off communication with Bus Cook the Saturday the rumors started, but immediately tried to call Jay that same Saturday. Jay wouldn't talk to them directly, but bellyached to four different reporters that same Saturday before talking to the FO directly.

Jay subsequently refused to return the FO's phone calls after Saturday, but continued to bellyache to reporters saying he was not going to talk to the FO, said he was going to lay low. Jay even refused to return Bowlen's phone calls.

Jay's been immature all through this. It's plain to see. He came to his own conclusion, then refused to discuss the matter. What a crybaby.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-15-2009, 07:02 AM
Where do you get a Herschel Walker type deal? The fact of the matter was the Broncos were giving up #12 and Jay Cutler. In return they were going to receive Cassel, #18 and the Bucs 3rd round pick. That means we were basically trading Cutler for Cassel straight up. Please explain mouseguy, where is the Herschel in that trade?

Perhaps you didn't hear the Sandy Clough scenario, the one that is just as believeable as any other that isn't attached to someone with a name and position.

Cutler goes. Denver receives the 1 and 20 picks. Giving us three first rounders (we'd keep our 12) AND Cassel.

That is a Herschel Walker deal.

Far fetched? Sure it is. but so is all the rest of the bull**** that's been floated around as fact by various media outlets in the last two weeks.

theAPAOps5
03-15-2009, 07:03 AM
Some people just want to hate McDaniels, if it wasn't Cutler it would be something else. If there is one thing I learned in this there are a lot irrational people on this board.

McD handled it wrong but Cutler is proving daily he doesn't have the mental toughness to become a great franchse QB.

Rohirrim
03-15-2009, 07:06 AM
Anybody who doesn't see Bus Cook's fingerprints all over this continuing charade is a moron. Face the facts, Cutlerites; He wants out. He and his agent are using this trade-that-never-was to angle for a big payday. Time to play a little hardball. Xanders needs to call them both and tell them to re-read the little clause in the contract called, "Conduct detrimental to the team."

Cito Pelon
03-15-2009, 07:08 AM
Jay Cutler dolls selling for $31.99 at Target Stores:

http://www.target.com/Baby-Alive-Wet-Wiggles-Doll/dp/B000OVAGFO

Amazing doll really "drinks" his juice and then wiggles and "cries" to let you know he’s wet his diaper!

Once he’s changed, squeeze his baby bracelet to hear him coo and play!

Comes with 3 doll diapers, t-shirt, hat, washcloth, rattle and bottle

elsid13
03-15-2009, 07:09 AM
Anybody who doesn't see Bus Cook's fingerprints all over this continuing charade is a moron. Face the facts, Cutlerites; He wants out. He and his agent are using this trade-that-never-was to angle for a big payday. Time to play a little hardball. Xanders needs to call them both and tell them to re-read the little clause in the contract called, "Conduct detrimental to the team."

What are you talking about. If FO tried to pull that ****, the union would be all over the situation filing grievance after grievance and winning. The Commissioner would also on the phone telling Denver to stop that ****.

bpc
03-15-2009, 07:11 AM
Some people just want to hate McDaniels, if it wasn't Cutler it would be something else. If there is one thing I learned in this there are a lot irrational people on this board.

McD handled it wrong but Cutler is proving daily he doesn't have the mental toughness to become a great franchse QB.

Is it because he looks stupid at every turn? There has to be a certain point and time when it becomes clear to you and all the other Shanahan haters that this guy is not ready and Bowlen made completely the wrong choice. I'm not rooting for him to fail, I just feel like i'm watching a massive 20 car pile up on the freeway a minute before it happens. Each situation he has is a fiasco. It screams of him not being ready for this deal. He's already lost a significant portion of the team with his foul up in dealing with Jay.

Jay's not completely innocent in all of this but the bottom line is we shouldn't be at defcom 5 like we are right now.

There's enough blame to spread around but the majority of it falls on to the new regimes shoulders.

All this organization needed to do was build a defense. That was it. Instead McDaniels took it upon himself to get into a pissing match with the teams best player and start uprooting any traces of Shanahan's stamp on this team. It's going to be a mistake that we'll be feeling for a very long time.

BTW Apa, are you really calling others irrational? You've flip-flopped sides on this issue like 8 times over. It's a roll of the dice every day about who you are supporting this time. Glass House - Stones - YOU.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
03-15-2009, 07:12 AM
What are you talking about. If FO tried to pull that ****, the union would be all over the situation filing grievance after grievance and winning. The Commissioner would also on the phone telling Denver to stop that ****.

And? It doesn't make him wrong. There are no rules and regs for Agents wanting to pull this type of bull****, and it wouldn't be the first for Bus Cook. This same pattern happened last year, with Favre and the Packers.

elsid13
03-15-2009, 07:13 AM
And? It doesn't make him wrong. There are no rules and regs for Agents wanting to pull this type of bull****, and it wouldn't be the first for Bus Cook. This same pattern happened last year, with Favre and the Packers.

Different situation and different players. No situation is same as much as folks here want to issue blame on one actor on this whole **** up.

bpc
03-15-2009, 07:14 AM
Anybody who doesn't see Bus Cook's fingerprints all over this continuing charade is a moron. Face the facts, Cutlerites; He wants out. He and his agent are using this trade-that-never-was to angle for a big payday. Time to play a little hardball. Xanders needs to call them both and tell them to re-read the little clause in the contract called, "Conduct detrimental to the team."

Was this whole deal an issue when Cutler was working his ass off in Denver for two weeks after the pro bowl?

No, it became an issue when McNugget stabbed him in the back and then fumbled the ball to the media.

Rohirrim
03-15-2009, 07:15 AM
What are you talking about. If FO tried to pull that ****, the union would be all over the situation filing grievance after grievance and winning. The Commissioner would also on the phone telling Denver to stop that ****.

Ask yourself a question: If the Broncos FO did not initiate trade talks with the Bucs, who did? And if it was Cutler's agent, then does this qualify as "conduct detrimental?" Get your head out of your ass. This whole thing was cooked up by Bus. It's the exact same pattern he has used over and over. The Broncos front office got blind sided by this bull****. You want to know why their reaction has been so tight fisted? It's because they know they're being bull rushed. Wake the **** up!