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View Full Version : Cutler Blah Blah Blah... Let's Talk Defense


phisig150
03-13-2009, 11:34 PM
So should we be happy with the moves on the defensive side of the ball? Huge Bronco fan but not much of an Xs and Os genius. So I have a couple of questions for the more educated fans on these boards:

Goodman and Hill good pickups? Not flashy signings but Miami D seemed solid to me last year and nabbing 2 starters from that squad looks at least on paper a good move.

Dawkins. Always loved this guy but how much does he have left in the tank? Obviously a great locker room prescence but will he be productive for the 2 years we'll have him?

Dline. We picked up some relative unknowns in free agency. Drafted quite a few over the last couple of years. Bound to draft a couple decent prospects this year. Is that enough if not are we at least in better shape than the last couple of years? Can Crowder play a 3-4 end? Can Thomas? Hearing a lot about Tyson Jackson worth the 12th?

LBs. Andra Davis, good signing? DJ still in the plans and if so ILB? Effective or out of place? Dumerville or Moss both being converted to LB? Who has the best shot succeeding and who will be traded? Also is Larsen a legit starter next year? Woodyard? Both ILBs? Can DJ play one of the outside spots?

Sorry for all the ?s but I figured someone might want a break from he said she said and I really do respect a lot of the posters insights on the game.

SC homer so Rey at 12 good possibility or not really in the cards?

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:00 AM
OK. Never mind back to to constant Cutler suicide watch.

Atwater His Ass
03-14-2009, 12:06 AM
Oh wow, no one responded to your thread a whole 26 minutes after you posted it. The horror.

SoCalBronco
03-14-2009, 12:10 AM
So should we be happy with the moves on the defensive side of the ball? Huge Bronco fan but not much of an Xs and Os genius. So I have a couple of questions for the more educated fans on these boards:

Goodman and Hill good pickups? Not flashy signings but Miami D seemed solid to me last year and nabbing 2 starters from that squad looks at least on paper a good move.

Dawkins. Always loved this guy but how much does he have left in the tank? Obviously a great locker room prescence but will he be productive for the 2 years we'll have him?

Dline. We picked up some relative unknowns in free agency. Drafted quite a few over the last couple of years. Bound to draft a couple decent prospects this year. Is that enough if not are we at least in better shape than the last couple of years? Can Crowder play a 3-4 end? Can Thomas? Hearing a lot about Tyson Jackson worth the 12th?

LBs. Andra Davis, good signing? DJ still in the plans and if so ILB? Effective or out of place? Dumerville or Moss both being converted to LB? Who has the best shot succeeding and who will be traded? Also is Larsen a legit starter next year? Woodyard? Both ILBs? Can DJ play one of the outside spots?

Sorry for all the ?s but I figured someone might want a break from he said she said and I really do respect a lot of the posters insights on the game.

SC homer so Rey at 12 good possibility or not really in the cards?

I am a huge fan of the Hill and Goodman signings. They had very good seasons last year and Denver got a good price. I applaud the new regime for those two signings.

I am still lukewarm on Dawkins. The age issues and the coverage issues are legitimate. He did get some good money up front, although it does appear that we may be able to cut rope in two years, so from that perspective, it wasn't a terrible signing. IMO, what is needed at the safety position is talent, preferably young talent, rather than mere leadership. I would have preferred selecting a young safety high in the draft, such as Louis Delmas or Rashad Johnson say in the 2nd round.

With the exception of signing Ron Fields, who might be serviceable in a rotation at NT, and/or for depth (and was a good, cheap signing), I am not impressed at all with the FO's work on the DL.

Andra Davis is a transitional player and they needed a guy who has experience at 3-4 ILB. He did not come expensive, either. However, he is definitely on the downside in his career and is obviously nothing more than a marginal stopgap, as evidenced by the fact that Leon Williams overtook him in Cleveland. I was forced to watch Leon Williams "play" for 4 years at Miami. It was not a pretty sight. At all. On the whole, though, the signing is a positive, because, if they are going to play a 3-4 with an under shift, they need a bigger, bulkier SILB to take on blocks, and Davis can probably do that competently. On the whole, a good signing given the peanuts paid and the role probably involved. I am interested in seeing whether Larsen can beat him out. It will be a good measuring stick for Larsen's development. I hope Larsen wins that battle.

It would appear that DJ is slated to be the WILB. In a 3-4 under, that probably is halfway-decent for him, although not super or good. It is certainly not as advantageous to his skills as a 4-3 WLB, but its as close as can be achieved. It won't be a good move if the NT isn't a monster. It will be difficult for either starting ILB to play over two uncovered guards without a disruptive NT. Woodyard appears to be hurt by the move to the 3-4 even more than DJ is. It is almost as if the staff saw the conundrum with two 4-3 WLBs and said that instead of screwing one of them over in favor of the other, we'll basically screw them both over. I honestly don't know where Woodyard fits and thats shame because he is talented and needs to contribute in some capacity. But he's even less of a 3-4 ILB than DJ is, and he does not fit the mold of a 3-4 OLB at all, as they are essentially pass rushing DE hybrids, which he is not. I don't know what will happen with Wesley. It is something to be concerned about.

Moss and Dumervil will have to transition to OLB. I believe Khan noted awhile back that Moss got some exposure to that last year against IND when we experimented with a number of things, but I really have no clue about that kid, anymore. He was so promising in his first camp and after he had that leg injury, he has been essentially a scrub. My own view is that Dumervil will be an excellent pass rushing 3-4 OLB. Asking a RB to block a guy with his inherent pass rushing skills is definitely in Denver's favor. I suspect the staff will limit his pass coverage responsibilities to almost purely flat and curl to flat zone. I think he's probably the only one in the front seven who actually fits better in the 3-4 than the 4-3.

We really need Raji at 12, somehow, someway. We really need him. I don't think Crowder can play 3-4 DE effectively. Thomas is an athletic player and has the necessary size. He might be able to do it, even though he'd be slightly miscast in that role, given that his athleticism might be wasted, at least in part. You mentioned Tyson Jackson and yes he would be the absolute perfect prototype 3-4 DE. He would be a huge shot in the arm for our run defense in particular. Outside of his sophomore year, he was not much of a pass rushing threat. As between the two, I would obviously prefer Raji, as the NT is the centerpiece of the entire scheme, but certainly Jackson would be a very nice consolation prize. I don't particularly care for Maualuga at all. He's vastly overrated in my opinion.

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Oh wow, no one responded to your thread a whole 26 minutes after you posted it. The horror.

Suck it. Was joking. Much rather have all Cutler all the time.

Taco John
03-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Honestly, I think everybody has the same questions that you do at this point. The defense is a huge question mark, and the significance of these signing isn't really going to come into focus until we can put them in perspective of what happens in the draft.

Dawkins is the most notable signing. I think we'll get out of him the same thing we got out of Lynch - a strong leader who makes his presence known on the field, but isn't as quick to the ball as he used to be. He'll give us an edge that we need, and provide much needed veteran leadership.

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:16 AM
Thanks Socal. Damn answered all my ?s. Think Raji will go top ten even possibly top 5 so I think we're out of that race but stranger things have happened. So with the moves and draft top 15 D?

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:20 AM
Honestly, I think everybody has the same questions that you do at this point. The defense is a huge question mark, and the significance of these signing isn't really going to come into focus until we can put them in perspective of what happens in the draft.

Dawkins is the most notable signing. I think we'll get out of him the same thing we got out of Lynch - a strong leader who makes his presence known on the field, but isn't as quick to the ball as he used to be. He'll give us an edge that we need, and provide much needed veteran leadership.


Broncos seem a bit strapped for cash. Did we miss a key free agent? Who did we miss (other than that god awful Haynesworth contract) that you would of liked to pick up?

Popps
03-14-2009, 12:22 AM
SoCal,

Good takes... and don't forget Powell as a wild card. He's got pretty good specs for a 3-4 DE, and specializes in stopping the run. He's going to be like a free draft pick this year.

Also, Fields is pretty highly thought of in a few of the scouting reports I've read. One said that they thought he was ready to break out after being shuffled around a lot in SF. He could be a very solid player for us.

The biggest thing we need is attackers. We need some big ass-kickers to wreak havoc at OLBs. I'm praying that we look that direction in the draft.

As much as Maulaluga has limitations, he's absolutely explosive... and I think he'd provide a great weapon for a defense in need of that element. He's just got amazing burst to the ball-carrier/QB. I can't tell from the little video I've seen if he can shed blockers or plug the gaps on running plays. But, the ****er is a demon in the open field.

Taco John
03-14-2009, 12:27 AM
Broncos seem a bit strapped for cash. Did we miss a key free agent? Who did we miss (other than that god awful Haynesworth contract) that you would of liked to pick up?

It's another weak FA year. Teams just don't let the good FA get away like they used to.

That said, I like both Mike Peterson and Bart Scott. Though, they're just as much of a gamble as anyone else. I think the draft is the real show here.

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:28 AM
Think I always loved about Rey is his fkn attitude. He's plays the game like the maniacs of old. That mean snarly presence has been sorely missed.

Taco John
03-14-2009, 12:30 AM
Broncos seem a bit strapped for cash. Did we miss a key free agent? Who did we miss (other than that god awful Haynesworth contract) that you would of liked to pick up?

Oh I forgot to mention that jerk ass Duck from San Diego - Olshansky. He'd have been a good pick up, though it would take some time to warm up to him. He's one of those guys that if you pick up, you think "I hate him, but at least he'll bring some attitude to our defense," and if you don't, you think, "I hate that jerk."

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:31 AM
It's another weak FA year. Teams just don't let the good FA get away like they used to.

That said, I like both Mike Peterson and Bart Scott. Though, they're just as much of a gamble as anyone else. I think the draft is the real show here.

I love the draft my favorite day of the year. So you a Jackson man or a Rey man? Looks like Raji will be gone. These are two I see in most of the mocks. I think Rey is a bruiser of old. Jackson just seems like a nice role player but Rey seems like the potential impact guy you take a gamble on. Perfect world let's say Rey is the next coming of Ray and Raji is the next Sapp who do you take? I lean towards Rey.

kappys
03-14-2009, 12:33 AM
The bottom line is that we are missing the 2 most important positions in a 3-4 - NT and WOLB. Those guys come at a premium of course which is why we didn't get one. Hopefully the draft will pan out or Moss or Doom can play the position but I am very skeptical that either can make the transition.

Dawkins - I think he still has a lot to offer - ALA John Lynch when we first got him. Rome wasn't built in a day either, and before we focus on young safeties we have to address the NT and Jack positions. He's a definite upgrade over the trash we had last year.

Hill - I'm kind of neutral on him. Okay player, but could be another Woods in the making. Time will tell. I didn't particularly care for this signing, but given the overall options available I do think it was a very good choice for the money.

Andra Davis - I am very happy with this signing. He's a good 3-4 SILB who has slowed down a bit but I think is a little better than his last year in Cleveland. That said I watched him more in his younger days than I did recently so I'm sure I have some goggles on.

I am not really informed enough to comment on the D-lineman signings. Just didn't watch enough of them play last year.

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:36 AM
Oh I forgot to mention that jerk ass Duck from San Diego - Olshansky. He'd have been a good pick up, though it would take some time to warm up to him. He's one of those guys that if you pick up, you think "I hate him, but at least he'll bring some attitude to our defense," and if you don't, you think, "I hate that jerk."

Just like Romo. Hated him. Then loved him. And then he was dead to me. Hope he choked to death on his 3 tons of "diet" supplements he took eveyrday.

Taco John
03-14-2009, 12:37 AM
I love the draft my favorite day of the year. So you a Jackson man or a Rey man? Looks like Raji will be gone. These are two I see in most of the mocks. I think Rey is a bruiser of old. Jackson just seems like a nice role player but Rey seems like the potential impact guy you take a gamble on. Perfect world let's say Rey is the next coming of Ray and Raji is the next Sapp who do you take? I lean towards Rey.


Honestly, I'd rather see us trade down and shoot for Ron Brace. I think a NT is our number one need, and that there are some good projects that can be found at both DL and LB in this draft. I like both Ziggy Hood and Darry Beckwith quite a bit.

Here's my latest personal mock:
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=77987

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:41 AM
Honestly, I'd rather see us trade down and shoot for Ron Brace. I think a NT is our number one need, and that there are some good projects that can be found at both DL and LB in this draft. I like both Ziggy Hood and Darry Beckwith quite a bit.

Here's my latest personal mock:
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=77987

So going off your mock Hood would play DE? Brace NT then Hood and Thomas? DEs. Inetresting front 7 potentially.

Popps
03-14-2009, 01:02 AM
Is anyone going to join me in kicking their televisions in if we take a CB at 12?

phisig150
03-14-2009, 01:06 AM
Is anyone going to join me in kicking their televisions in if we take a CB at 12?

I will. Healthy Champ and warm body opposite is good enough for me

BroncoMan4ever
03-14-2009, 01:15 AM
to be honest, our offseason aquisitions are basically the same as what Mike would have brought in, minus the incredible aquisition of a long snapper. i don't think Mike would have had the brains to sign a Long Snapper

socalorado
03-14-2009, 01:17 AM
SoCal,

Good takes... and don't forget Powell as a wild card. He's got pretty good specs for a 3-4 DE, and specializes in stopping the run. He's going to be like a free draft pick this year.

Also, Fields is pretty highly thought of in a few of the scouting reports I've read. One said that they thought he was ready to break out after being shuffled around a lot in SF. He could be a very solid player for us.

The biggest thing we need is attackers. We need some big ass-kickers to wreak havoc at OLBs. I'm praying that we look that direction in the draft.
As much as Maulaluga has limitations, he's absolutely explosive... and I think he'd provide a great weapon for a defense in need of that element. He's just got amazing burst to the ball-carrier/QB. I can't tell from the little video I've seen if he can shed blockers or plug the gaps on running plays. But, the ****er is a demon in the open field.

Fields will be a solid rotational type of player, but nothing to great either.
Dawkins has plenty left, i watched his last year and hes as good as ever. Very much like Lynch when he 1st came over. Hill will be a upgrade as well, so not to worry.
My concern is with the holes that are left.
Moss i think is just gone. A draft day trade with Sheffler for a pick maybe.
Doom should fit in somewhat, but as a JACK, jeez i think the transition will be tough.
Andra and DJ to the ILB positions, and i think Nolan will just watch them. If they dont perform the way he wants i think Larsen gets thrown into the mix there.
Which is ultimately why i think Cushing could be the player looked at #12.
He can play inside or out and is a field general, and great tackler. He can play SAM or ILB, so if Andra or DJ struggle,no worries cause Cushing can take over. I would also like DEN to address the JACK with either Connor Barwin or Clay Mathews. This team needs some MOTORS on defense that will attack all game. And DEN needs players that are good enough to get to the QB from the JACK/SAM/DE/NT spot, and i as well as most others dont think Moss stands a chance there. We'll see.
As for the NT spot. There are plenty of players such as Smmy Lee Hill of Stillman, Dorell Scott, Terrance Wheatley that can be drafted from the 3rd on. Plenty off talent for Nolan to mold.
Also there are alot of DEs in the middle rounds as well that i think DEN should go after.
I agree though, DEN needs some serious motors outta the draft!

cutthemdown
03-14-2009, 01:39 AM
At this point the Denver defense has 2 real playmakers. Bailey and Dawkins.

I still the linebackers as lacking a true physical presence that can anchor the middle or a good SSL. Andre Davis may help a little but he's not a real force or anything. DJ to me is just a good player who needs some studs on defense for him to really play well. He's decent though. At SSL I just think we are a mess. If we go 3-4 then we need outside linebackers because we don't have 250-260 pound pass rushing type backers.

On the dline I think we lack even 1 playmaker. Broncos will be severly talent defecient on the defense again next yr. IMO it won't be great. It could be better then last yr with Nolan and a different group of journeyman but not much IMO.

watermock
03-14-2009, 01:43 AM
Thank god we still have the Goodmans.

socalorado
03-14-2009, 01:57 AM
At this point the Denver defense has 2 real playmakers. Bailey and Dawkins.

I still the linebackers as lacking a true physical presence that can anchor the middle or a good SSL. Andre Davis may help a little but he's not a real force or anything. DJ to me is just a good player who needs some studs on defense for him to really play well. He's decent though. At SSL I just think we are a mess. If we go 3-4 then we need outside linebackers because we don't have 250-260 pound pass rushing type backers.

On the dline I think we lack even 1 playmaker. Broncos will be severly talent defecient on the defense again next yr. IMO it won't be great. It could be better then last yr with Nolan and a different group of journeyman but not much IMO.
Here. Playmakers.

1st
Brian Cushing, USC OLB/ILB
2nd
Connor Barwin, Cincinnati OLB/JACK
3rd
Sammie Lee Hill, Stillman NT
4th
Mitch King, Iowa DE
5A
Davon Drew, East Carolina TE
(If DEN trade Sheffler)
5B
Kyle Moore, USC DE
6
Brandon Underwood, Cincinnati FS
7A
Michael Bennett, Texas A&M DE
7B
Jervonte Jackson, Florida Atlantic NT

_Oro_
03-14-2009, 10:40 AM
Here. Playmakers.

1st
Brian Cushing, USC OLB/ILB
2nd
Connor Barwin, Cincinnati OLB/JACK
3rd
Sammie Lee Hill, Stillman NT
4th
Mitch King, Iowa DE
5A
Davon Drew, East Carolina TE
(If DEN trade Sheffler)
5B
Kyle Moore, USC DE
6
Brandon Underwood, Cincinnati FS
7A
Michael Bennett, Texas A&M DE
7B
Jervonte Jackson, Florida Atlantic NT

It's possible 1-4 those guys will be gone before we pick.

barryr
03-14-2009, 01:56 PM
Odds are good the Broncos will use the draft to fill in spots on defense. Obviously what they have done in free agency is not enough.