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View Full Version : Josh McDaniels made trash look like gold--fact


BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:31 AM
For those who say Matt Cassel is trash, you have a terrible problem. The problem is this: if Cassel is trash, that means McDaniels is a freakin genius. There are no two ways about it. If Cassel is trash, then McDaniels took trash and made him an above average player for a year and helped his team team to an 11-5 record. And lest you say, "oh, well, he had Moss and Welker etc", sorry, you still lose. Moss was considered pure trash after his final season with Oakland before McD got hold of him. Welker had one REC TD in his career before McD got hold of him. Plus, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Scheffler ain't much worse than what NE had.

Sorry, haters, but there is no way around it. Either Cassel is a fine Qb and McDaniels gets no credit, or he's trash and McD gets MASSIVE credit for making trash look respectable.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 01:34 AM
There should be little doubt that McDaniels did a fine job with Cassel. Are there really people who are saying differently?

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:36 AM
Oh, there are, Taco. Some call Cassel pure trash while simultaneously calling for McDs job. Look if you don't believe me. It's all over the board.

watermock
03-13-2009, 01:36 AM
But didnt we need a durable RB and adequate defense?

Didn't we allready have the #2 offense despite no running game, especially late?

Wasn't the plan to fix the defense?

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:38 AM
But didnt we need a durable RB and adequate defense?

Didn't we allready have the #2 offense despite no running game, especially late?

Wasn't the plan to fix the defense?

Actually, no, we didn't have the #2 offense. Our offense was #16--i.e. medicore--in scoring, which is the stat that matters.

Popps
03-13-2009, 01:40 AM
It is sort of funny that some of the argument around here seems to be that McDaniels is a buffoon, AND ALSO... Cassel is a back-up quality player.

Well, which is it?

If you watched the Patriots this year after Cassel took over, they were incredibly effective. They should have been in the playoffs, obviously.

I'm excited about this new regime. Sue me.

GreatBronco16
03-13-2009, 01:41 AM
We could also say that we were #2 in yards because our defense was so bad, that they didn't stay on the field long enough holding the other team. So the offense had more chances to put up even more yards. But yards mean dick if you aren't matching it with points.

anon
03-13-2009, 02:05 AM
If we traded Cutler for #1, #20, and Cassel, we would have a decent QB with a coach who knows how to best use his abilities, our awesome O-line, our running game intact (coaches and personnel retained), and our solid receivers. And we would have had 2 first round draft picks to address our numerous holes on defense. How is that so terrible?

And I don't see anybody saying that Cutler is not a good player. He has lots of potential, all the physical tools, but needs to work on his poise and turnovers (probably related). I'm happy that he's (hopefully) still here, but if the trade described above had happened, I would have been surprised but still excited.

extralife
03-13-2009, 02:08 AM
This is not a very logical argument. Just to be a dick.

Cassel is probably a mediocre player that was put in a position to excel, coached well, and put up slightly above mediocre stats.

cutthemdown
03-13-2009, 02:13 AM
Getting a bunch of picks and Cassel was an interesting chance and I'm not surprised Mcdaniels looked at it. At this point I don't see any chance Cutler get's traded.

I do think Mcdaniels is going to field a good offense with adept play calling.

Defense, well , we will see.

Blueflame
03-13-2009, 03:01 AM
The McD fanbois should realize that Cassel had 10 other guys on the field with him. And a not-30th-ranked defense....

McD is an above-average OC. This does not mean he'll be an above-average HC (see: Norv Turner)

arghemtee
03-13-2009, 03:09 AM
It is sort of funny that some of the argument around here seems to be that McDaniels is a buffoon, AND ALSO... Cassel is a back-up quality player.

Well, which is it?

If you watched the Patriots this year after Cassel took over, they were incredibly effective. They should have been in the playoffs, obviously.

I'm excited about this new regime. Sue me.

Wrong. I don't believe anyone is questioning his ability to coach at the OC level (maybe HC), but we're questioning his decision-making in player personnel.

eddie mac
03-13-2009, 03:14 AM
This is not a very logical argument. Just to be a dick.

Cassel is probably a mediocre player that was put in a position to excel, coached well, and put up slightly above mediocre stats.

So then Cutler's stats were slightly above mediocre as well because Cassel matched him stat for stat last season aside from yardage because Denver threw the ball far more and that with Matt ending on his ass 47 times via sack compared to Cutler's 11.

Do you see much comparison with the offensive lines in this either???

Cassel 516-327-3693-21-11 89.4 QB rating sacked 47 times
Cutler 616-384-4526-25-18 86.0 QB rating sacked 11 times

crazyhorse
03-13-2009, 03:37 AM
So then Cutler's stats were slightly above mediocre as well because Cassel matched him stat for stat last season aside from yardage because Denver threw the ball far more and that with Matt ending on his ass 47 times via sack compared to Cutler's 11.

Do you see much comparison with the offensive lines in this either???

Cassel 516-327-3693-21-11 89.4 QB rating sacked 47 times
Cutler 616-384-4526-25-18 86.0 QB rating sacked 11 times

Plus Cassel isn't a head case/locker room cancer.

Natedog24
03-13-2009, 03:50 AM
Yeah I don't think anyone is debating whether McDaniels was a good offensive coordinator/QB coach or not. This just makes me more depressed that JC and McD aren't on the same page because I would love to see what McDaniels could do with Cutler and his freakish raw athleticism.

hambone13
03-13-2009, 03:51 AM
Plus Cassel isn't a head case/locker room cancer.


I've always loved the quality of your posts. No really, you're a real gem....

crazyhorse
03-13-2009, 03:55 AM
I've always loved the quality of your posts. No really, you're a real gem....


I'm willing to debate the issue if you feel something I've said is inaccurate.

Or are you just pouting?

hambone13
03-13-2009, 04:09 AM
I'm willing to debate the issue if you feel something I've said is inaccurate.

Or are you just pouting?

Accuracy is relative. Let's just start with the "head case" comment.....

Help me understand how Jay Cutler is a "Head Case". I will conceed:

1. He's Cocky with the fans
2. He's not a media darling
3. He could be handling the current situation better

Maybe you could enlighten me on how he's a "Head Case"........?

crazyhorse
03-13-2009, 04:23 AM
Accuracy is relative. Let's just start with the "head case" comment.....

Help me understand how Jay Cutler is a "Head Case". I will conceed:

1. He's Cocky with the fans
2. He's not a media darling
3. He could be handling the current situation better

Maybe you could enlighten me on how he's a "Head Case"........?

Um........

When drafted, the Broncos traded up to get him. When they did that, they thought they were getting a leader of men. Not a self absorbed player who feels his personal agenda is above the team. In this case, his feeling are above the team. I guarantee you, they thought they were drafting a more mentally stable, mentally tough, team 1st player when they trdaed up for him.

Reguardless of what he feels, he has a responsibility to his team mates to keep the team moving in a way that a leader would be expected too. Instead, it's obviously more important to communicate his displeasure than to lead this football team. The only leadership he is showing is what not to do in this situation. It's fine to be unhappy with the situation. It's fine to communicate that you're unhappy with how things are going. It's something else to throw a temper tantrum for everyone on the team to see. He's acting like TO would act. TO is a head case.

In any negotiation, the 1st one who flinces, loses.

You basically asked me to explain how he is a head case. Then you outlined why he is one. I'm not sure what the point of your arguement to the contrary would be.

hambone13
03-13-2009, 04:39 AM
Um........

When drafted, the Broncos traded up to get him. When they did that, they thought they were getting a leader of men. Not a self absorbed player who feels his personal agenda is above the team. In this case, his feeling are above the team. I guarantee you, they thought they were drafting a more mentally stable, mentally tough, team 1st player when they trdaed up for him.

Reguardless of what he feels, he has a responsibility to his team mates to keep the team moving in a way that a leader would be expected too. Instead, it's obviously more important to communicate his displeasure than to lead this football team. The only leadership he is showing is what not to do in this situation. It's fine to be unhappy with the situation. It's fine to communicate that you're unhappy with how things are going. It's something else to throw a temper tantrum for everyone on the team to see. He's acting like TO would act. TO is a head case.

In any negotiation, the 1st one who flinces, loses.

You basically asked me to explain how he is a head case. Then you outlined why he is one. I'm not sure what the point of your arguement to the contrary would be.

You're too much. Champ Baily held out and demanded a trade that ultimately made him a Bronco. I guess he's a "Head Case" too.

For you to compare Jay to TO is a great justification for not debating with you. Because our definitions obviously differ so vastly it would be meaningless. TO is a true head case. I agree as do many Doctors of Psychology. I couldn't have used a better example as a means to dignify my definition and more importantly why Jay is not a "head case".

Please carry on your position with those willing to dwell and agree with your sophomoric observations.

Blueflame
03-13-2009, 04:43 AM
Um........

When drafted, the Broncos traded up to get him. When they did that, they thought they were getting a leader of men. Not a self absorbed player who feels his personal agenda is above the team. In this case, his feeling are above the team. I guarantee you, they thought they were drafting a more mentally stable, mentally tough, team 1st player when they trdaed up for him.

Reguardless of what he feels, he has a responsibility to his team mates to keep the team moving in a way that a leader would be expected too. Instead, it's obviously more important to communicate his displeasure than to lead this football team. The only leadership he is showing is what not to do in this situation. It's fine to be unhappy with the situation. It's fine to communicate that you're unhappy with how things are going. It's something else to throw a temper tantrum for everyone on the team to see. He's acting like TO would act. TO is a head case.

In any negotiation, the 1st one who flinces, loses.

You basically asked me to explain how he is a head case. Then you outlined why he is one. I'm not sure what the point of your arguement to the contrary would be.

If he shows up Monday, your argument goes out the window, y'know....;)

crazyhorse
03-13-2009, 04:49 AM
If he shows up Monday, your argument goes out the window, y'know....;)

That's not true.

His actions up to this point have shown his position. It's not like this is the 1st signs of a potential problem. This is one of the most publicized. His moody behavior and his inablity to control it is obvious.

I fully expect he will show up Monday. Tha fact he cant bring himself to communicate that he will be there is signs of a problem. The "I'll think about it" position he's taken is proof positive that even after all this time to come under control of his actions, he's still struggling with it.

crazyhorse
03-13-2009, 04:51 AM
You're too much. Champ Baily held out and demanded a trade that ultimately made him a Bronco. I guess he's a "Head Case" too.

For you to compare Jay to TO is a great justification for not debating with you. Because our definitions obviously differ so vastly it would be meaningless. TO is a true head case. I agree as do many Doctors of Psychology. I couldn't have used a better example as a means to dignify my definition and more importantly why Jay is not a "head case".

Please carry on your position with those willing to dwell and agree with your sophomoric observations.


So, you were just pouting.

Champ didn't throw a hissy fit. TO did.

How about Jeff George? Is he a better example?

TheReverend
03-13-2009, 05:10 AM
For those who say Matt Cassel is trash, you have a terrible problem. The problem is this: if Cassel is trash, that means McDaniels is a freakin genius. There are no two ways about it. If Cassel is trash, then McDaniels took trash and made him an above average player for a year and helped his team team to an 11-5 record. And lest you say, "oh, well, he had Moss and Welker etc", sorry, you still lose. Moss was considered pure trash after his final season with Oakland before McD got hold of him. Welker had one REC TD in his career before McD got hold of him. Plus, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Scheffler ain't much worse than what NE had.

Sorry, haters, but there is no way around it. Either Cassel is a fine Qb and McDaniels gets no credit, or he's trash and McD gets MASSIVE credit for making trash look respectable.

Your logic is massively flawed. If he's trash giving McD massive credit, then why was McD trading for him? And the issue isn't that Cassel is "trash", it's that he's trash relative to Cutler's talent.

Dedhed
03-13-2009, 07:20 AM
Your logic is massively flawed. If he's trash giving McD massive credit, then why was McD trading for him? And the issue isn't that Cassel is "trash", it's that he's trash relative to Cutler's talent.
Because he knows that being a leader is as important as throwing the football, and he thinks (as Cutler is proving) that Cutler my not be a premier player in that regard where he knows that Cassel is.

TheReverend
03-13-2009, 07:24 AM
Because he knows that being a leader is as important as throwing the football, and he thinks (as Cutler is proving) that Cutler my not be a premier player in that regard where he knows that Cassel is.

There's way too much speculation going on and this another shining example. Why don't we just see what happens?

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 07:35 AM
The other thing Cassell had, that 28 other teams had that Cutler didn't, was a defense that could force other teams to actually punt more than once a game. Our best defensive play call was to hope for a holding penalty on the other team's offense.

Cutler puts up TDs, he carried the 2nd rated offense last year without a running game. Get him a RB and a defense that can get off the field and we'll be just fine.

McKid is Terry Schiavo brain dead if he thinks Cassell is an upgrade in any fashion whatsoever over Cutler. I don't think he's brain dead so the other option is that McKid's a diaper dandy who needs a security binky and a pacifier; enter Matt Cassell

Dedhed
03-13-2009, 07:38 AM
There's way too much speculation going on and this another shining example. Why don't we just see what happens?

How is it speculation that McDaniels knows what he has in Cassel?

Kaylore
03-13-2009, 07:40 AM
The McD fanbois should realize that Cassel had 10 other guys on the field with him. And a not-30th-ranked defense....

McD is an above-average OC. This does not mean he'll be an above-average HC (see: Norv Turner)

And it doesn't mean he won't. I would say he was better than "above average." Regardless, no one here has any clue what kind of head coach he'll be. We'll have to wait and see.

Dedhed
03-13-2009, 07:41 AM
Cutler puts up TDs, he carried the 2nd rated offense last year without a running game.

16th in red zone efficiency and scoring.

Not to mention that there isn't a single person here debating Cutler's talent, but whatever.

Dedhed
03-13-2009, 07:44 AM
The McD fanbois should realize that Cassel had 10 other guys on the field with him.

That's exactly the point, but it's actual 52 other guys who believe in the system and in Cassel running it. Not valuing themselves above it and pouting about the rest of the team's inability to play up to his level.

WolfpackGuy
03-13-2009, 07:52 AM
Did anyone watch the Pittsburgh-New England game?
That should remove all doubts of a Cassel for Cutler move being good for the Broncos.
Cassel has been a LIFETIME backup, and it showed in that game.
He's just a younger Brian Griese in my opinion.

Garcia Bronco
03-13-2009, 07:53 AM
To me, the coach's football mentalis projectus is awesome. It's his people skills that need some work.

Drek
03-13-2009, 07:53 AM
But didnt we need a durable RB and adequate defense?

Didn't we allready have the #2 offense despite no running game, especially late?

Wasn't the plan to fix the defense?

No, we were #16th because last I checked they decide who wins games based on points, not yardage.

Saying we were #2 in yardage is only slightly more valid than saying were were the #2 team on 2nd downs between the 19 and 23 yard line in dome stadiums between the hours of 2:00PM and 3:00PM. Its a qualifier to excuse the fact that the offense was mediocre at putting up points, i.e. doing their damn job.

Yeah I don't think anyone is debating whether McDaniels was a good offensive coordinator/QB coach or not. This just makes me more depressed that JC and McD aren't on the same page because I would love to see what McDaniels could do with Cutler and his freakish raw athleticism.

I think thats what McDaniels is shooting for too. But in order to harness Jay's raw talents he needs to get through to Jay that no one is above the team and that everyone will be held accountable for every snap be it in practice or on Sundays.

Thats the road block here. Jay thinks being the franchise QB means he's less accountable for his mistakes and above reproach. McDaniels sees being the franchise QB as the most accountable player on the team and the first person who gets blamed for the team's losses, no matter what side of the ball played worse in the loss.

McDaniels mindset is the same mindset that great QBs like Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, and our own Bronco great John Elway approached the job with. Jay Cutler's mindset is more akin to what Barry Bonds, Brett Favre, and Michael Vick approached their careers with. The rings are pretty heavily weighted to one side of this argument, FYI.

Broncomutt
03-13-2009, 07:57 AM
For those who say Matt Cassel is trash, you have a terrible problem. The problem is this: if Cassel is trash, that means McDaniels is a freakin genius. There are no two ways about it. If Cassel is trash, then McDaniels took trash and made him an above average player for a year and helped his team team to an 11-5 record. And lest you say, "oh, well, he had Moss and Welker etc", sorry, you still lose. Moss was considered pure trash after his final season with Oakland before McD got hold of him. Welker had one REC TD in his career before McD got hold of him. Plus, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Scheffler ain't much worse than what NE had.

Sorry, haters, but there is no way around it. Either Cassel is a fine Qb and McDaniels gets no credit, or he's trash and McD gets MASSIVE credit for making trash look respectable.


Good post and good line of reasoning BI. I echo your thoughts.

I've not bashed McDaniels at all and am excited by what I think he can bring to our offense. But while I think he is a top flight OC, that is no longer his job title. Being a great coordinator is no guarantee of success as a head coach.

Not trying to say that you were calling him a great coach. Just saying I think he should be given a chance to succeed or fail before he gets called a loser or a mastermind.

But then, some people must actually enjoy looking foolish.

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 08:04 AM
16th in red zone efficiency and scoring.

Not to mention that there isn't a single person here debating Cutler's talent, but whatever.

Which had more to do with a non-existant running game than Cutler's ability to put up points in the RZ.

The entire point of entertaining the notion of the trade was that it would upgrade the team in some fashion and I'm laying it out there that absolutely not. McKid's FO talents are abysmal and he should have the training wheels put back on his bike.

Today, right now, Cutler is better for this team than McKid.

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 08:17 AM
A solid and objective take...

http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2009/03/but-seriously-what-the-hell-is-denver-doing.html#more-12610

But Seriously… What the Hell Is Denver Doing?


<CENTER itxtvisited="1">http://cdn.kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com-s1.simplecdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/mcdaniels2.jpg (http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/mcdaniels2.jpg)
</CENTER>
With the continued deterioration of the Jay Cutler situation in Denver, I’m honestly surprised I haven’t seen more of an effort by the Broncos’ front office to make amends with Cutler. I haven’t seen this lit up in klieg lights and broadcast across the Internet yet, so I just wanted to be the first to ask Pat Bowlen and Josh McDaniels…

HOLY **** ARE YOU ****ING RETARDED???
As any moron who’s seen a football game knows, the single most important position for a team is quarterback. And at any given time, there are only about 15, maybe 20 people ON THE ENTIRE PLANET who can effectively lead an NFL offense without egregiously ****ing up several times a game. Of those, there are perhaps four or five whose skill and decision-making abilities regularly elevate the team to win games it would otherwise lose.
If Cutler isn’t yet at that top tier, he has at least demonstrated the potential to soon get there.
Cutler is only 25. He has started only two full seasons. Last season, as the famed Denver running attack was decimated by injuries, Cutler completed 62.3% of his passes for over 4500 yards (third in the NFL), 25 TDs, and 18 INTs. And for those who might point out that his 86.0 passer rating was only 16th in the NFL, I would counter that (a) Seneca Wallace and Shaun Hill had higher ratings, so (b) passer rating is about as useful as LaDainian in the playoffs.
A better indicator might be this: only Drew Brees had more passing attempts than Cutler’s 616, yet Cutler was sacked only 11 times all season. Kerry Collins, who captained a run-first offense and didn’t even start until Vince Young’s mental collapse, was the only starting quarterback who was sacked fewer times. (Matt Cassel, the guy McDaniels wanted: one point better in passing percentage, and 47 sacks). Perhaps some of that explains why Cutler was the fifth-best quarterback in the league according to Football Outsiders’ DYAR (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb).
My point is, Jesus CHRIST I would LOVE to have this guy taking snaps for my team for the next 7 years. And so would Vikings fans. And Jets fans. And Titans fans. And Raiders fans. And any of the other teams who are living with Trent Edwards. Kyle Orton. ****ing Dan Orlovsky.
This **** blows my mind. Do they not realize how rare and wonderful a real, live, young, GOOD quarterback is? Hell, Ben Roethlisberger’s won two Super Bowls, and Pittsburgh fans are still justifiably terrified when he holds on to the ball for more than three seconds.
And why would the Lions or the Seahawks or anyone else risk drafting Matthew Stafford — a great prospect, but obviously unproven — with their #1 pick when they could trade that pick and some other parts for a rare proven commodity?
/breathes into paper bag
Am I crazy? Is Cutler’s lack of personality THAT big of a deal? Is his diabetes going to go off the charts and end his career? Has he been beating Brandon Marshall’s girlfriend too? What the hell am I missing?
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Crushaholic
03-13-2009, 08:21 AM
I believe that some people are clouded by the fact that the Chiefs now have Cassel. He's a very good quarterback, and the Chiefs are lucky to have him. We'll see what he does without an offensive line and a solid group of receivers, however...

Broncoman13
03-13-2009, 08:34 AM
He had a few years to learn the system as well. Anyhow, the fact is McD is a damn good coach. On the field I'm not sure there was a better option. In terms of preparing his players and getting the most from his system and coaches, I think he'll do a fine job. To trust a 32 year old with all of the personnel decisions though..... POORLY THOUGHTOUT MOVE BY BOWLEN! Why fire Shanahan and say that it was a power problem and then do the exact same thing again?

For those who say Matt Cassel is trash, you have a terrible problem. The problem is this: if Cassel is trash, that means McDaniels is a freakin genius. There are no two ways about it. If Cassel is trash, then McDaniels took trash and made him an above average player for a year and helped his team team to an 11-5 record. And lest you say, "oh, well, he had Moss and Welker etc", sorry, you still lose. Moss was considered pure trash after his final season with Oakland before McD got hold of him. Welker had one REC TD in his career before McD got hold of him. Plus, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Scheffler ain't much worse than what NE had.

Sorry, haters, but there is no way around it. Either Cassel is a fine Qb and McDaniels gets no credit, or he's trash and McD gets MASSIVE credit for making trash look respectable.

oubronco
03-13-2009, 08:37 AM
A solid and objective take...

http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/2009/03/but-seriously-what-the-hell-is-denver-doing.html#more-12610

But Seriously… What the Hell Is Denver Doing?


<CENTER itxtvisited="1">http://cdn.kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com-s1.simplecdn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/mcdaniels2.jpg (http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/mcdaniels2.jpg)
</CENTER>
With the continued deterioration of the Jay Cutler situation in Denver, I’m honestly surprised I haven’t seen more of an effort by the Broncos’ front office to make amends with Cutler. I haven’t seen this lit up in klieg lights and broadcast across the Internet yet, so I just wanted to be the first to ask Pat Bowlen and Josh McDaniels…

HOLY **** ARE YOU ****ING RETARDED???
As any moron who’s seen a football game knows, the single most important position for a team is quarterback. And at any given time, there are only about 15, maybe 20 people ON THE ENTIRE PLANET who can effectively lead an NFL offense without egregiously ****ing up several times a game. Of those, there are perhaps four or five whose skill and decision-making abilities regularly elevate the team to win games it would otherwise lose.
If Cutler isn’t yet at that top tier, he has at least demonstrated the potential to soon get there.
Cutler is only 25. He has started only two full seasons. Last season, as the famed Denver running attack was decimated by injuries, Cutler completed 62.3% of his passes for over 4500 yards (third in the NFL), 25 TDs, and 18 INTs. And for those who might point out that his 86.0 passer rating was only 16th in the NFL, I would counter that (a) Seneca Wallace and Shaun Hill had higher ratings, so (b) passer rating is about as useful as LaDainian in the playoffs.
A better indicator might be this: only Drew Brees had more passing attempts than Cutler’s 616, yet Cutler was sacked only 11 times all season. Kerry Collins, who captained a run-first offense and didn’t even start until Vince Young’s mental collapse, was the only starting quarterback who was sacked fewer times. (Matt Cassel, the guy McDaniels wanted: one point better in passing percentage, and 47 sacks). Perhaps some of that explains why Cutler was the fifth-best quarterback in the league according to Football Outsiders’ DYAR (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb).
My point is, Jesus CHRIST I would LOVE to have this guy taking snaps for my team for the next 7 years. And so would Vikings fans. And Jets fans. And Titans fans. And Raiders fans. And any of the other teams who are living with Trent Edwards. Kyle Orton. ****ing Dan Orlovsky.
This **** blows my mind. Do they not realize how rare and wonderful a real, live, young, GOOD quarterback is? Hell, Ben Roethlisberger’s won two Super Bowls, and Pittsburgh fans are still justifiably terrified when he holds on to the ball for more than three seconds.
And why would the Lions or the Seahawks or anyone else risk drafting Matthew Stafford — a great prospect, but obviously unproven — with their #1 pick when they could trade that pick and some other parts for a rare proven commodity?
/breathes into paper bag
Am I crazy? Is Cutler’s lack of personality THAT big of a deal? Is his diabetes going to go off the charts and end his career? Has he been beating Brandon Marshall’s girlfriend too? What the hell am I missing?
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Hello Sunshine

TheReverend
03-13-2009, 09:20 AM
How is it speculation that McDaniels knows what he has in Cassel?

I guess you forgot you wrote this part...?

"and he thinks (as Cutler is proving) that Cutler my not be a premier player in that regard where he knows that Cassel is"

That's PURELY speculation.

broncosteven
03-13-2009, 09:25 AM
Plus Cassel isn't a head case/locker room cancer.

Give him 2 years in KFC and he will be begging for a trade just like LJ, Gonzo, Waters, et all...

montrose
03-13-2009, 09:27 AM
"and he thinks (as Cutler is proving) that Cutler my not be a premier player in that regard where he knows that Cassel is"

That's PURELY speculation.

I feel like everything on the Mane at this point is speculation.

Rabb
03-13-2009, 09:33 AM
I love the argument that Cassel was only good because of McDaniels and the system.

Umm, doesn't that make him a coachable player that does what he is told and listens to improve himself and the team? And in turn, doesn't that make McDaniels a smart guy for using the talent he has and putting them in the positions to suit them?

Seems like we have been wanting some of that here.

Sometimes physical talent isn't all that makes a guy a good football player.

USMCBladerunner
03-13-2009, 09:42 AM
looks like KSK has over looked the fact that the Broncos didn't trade Jay Cutler for Matt Cassel...much like a large number of folks on the Mane...

considering the possibility is not the same thing as making a trade...the only person who is thinkng about not having Jay Cutler play in Denver right now is Jay Cutler...

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 09:43 AM
This is not a very logical argument. Just to be a dick.

Cassel is probably a mediocre player that was put in a position to excel, coached well, and put up slightly above mediocre stats.

OK, what put him the position to excel? The system implemented by McDaniels.

Also, I Cassel's numbers are "slightly above mediocre", so are Jay's. Jay had more yards and four more TDs but throwing the ball 100 more times. Cassel had seven fewer INTs and a better QB rating. The stats are fairly comparable

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 09:47 AM
looks like KSK has over looked the fact that the Broncos didn't trade Jay Cutler for Matt Cassel...much like a large number of folks on the Mane...

considering the possibility is not the same thing as making a trade...the only person who is thinkng about not having Jay Cutler play in Denver right now is Jay Cutler...

I'm not sold on that. If McKid is willing to swap out Jay's talent for Cassell's then there's really no way of knowing what other harebrained schemes or fancies have entered his prepubescent mind. He's like a 5 year old in the store...."oooh look. Candy bar." Bowlen needs to put a leash on the kid.

TheReverend
03-13-2009, 09:47 AM
I feel like everything on the Mane at this point is speculation.

nothing new there

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 09:49 AM
The McD fanbois should realize that Cassel had 10 other guys on the field with him. And a not-30th-ranked defense....

Um, yeah, he had 10 other guys on the field with him. What of it? Denver's offensive talent is comparable to NEs as I outlined in the OP. And a bad defense does not excuse Jay from making dumb TOs when we are either ahead or the game is well within reach as he did numerous times this past season.

McD is an above-average OC.

Above average? He orchestrated the greatest offense in NFL history (statistically speaking anyway). Then, the next year, he loses one of the top QBs in the game, gets saddled with a QB who had not started a game since high school, and still produces a top 5 offense. To say he is merely an "above-average OC" given his results is just further proof that you are entirely unwilling to process this situation rationally.

This does not mean he'll be an above-average HC (see: Norv Turner)

Of course it doesn't, that wasn't my argument. I was just exposing the logical flaw behind folks like you who call McDaniels an idiot AND say that Cassel is junk.

~Crash~
03-13-2009, 09:51 AM
It is sort of funny that some of the argument around here seems to be that McDaniels is a buffoon, AND ALSO... Cassel is a back-up quality player.

Well, which is it?

If you watched the Patriots this year after Cassel took over, they were incredibly effective. They should have been in the playoffs, obviously.

I'm excited about this new regime. Sue me.


So popps you like the idea of getting rid of Cutler still, if so :wiggle:

McD is the Coach Right? If So then he needs to take control of his team . or is this the new age way of Coaching .

Lat year Shanahan worked Cutler some during the off Season .Cutler has said over and over he does not feel a part of the team that means he does not feel he has no say so . If so that is silly put him to work breaking down film on players that could affect him if we draft them . If he is working then he will feel like he is a part of the team

I don't think this started out as contract issue ,but I now think that is were this is headed .

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 09:53 AM
Um, yeah, he had 10 other guys on the field with him. What of it? Denver's offensive talent is comparable to NEs as I outlined in the OP. And a bad defense does not excuse Jay from making dumb TOs when we are either ahead or the game is well within reach as he did numerous times this past season.



Above average? He orchestrated the greatest offense in NFL history (statistically speaking anyway). Then, the next year, he loses one of the top QBs in the game, gets saddled with a QB who had not started a game since high school, and still produces a top 5 offense. To say he is merely an "above-average OC" given his results is just further proof that you are entirely unwilling to process this situation rationally.



Of course it doesn't, that wasn't my argument. I was just exposing the logical flaw behind folks like you who call McDaniels an idiot AND say that Cassel is junk.

Charlie Weis just called and said that sometimes success as an OC doesn't translate into success as a coach.

And yes, to consider Cassell over Cutler is beyond idiotic, it is brain dead.

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 10:00 AM
I'm not sold on that. If McKid is willing to swap out Jay's talent for Cassell's then there's really no way of knowing what other harebrained schemes or fancies have entered his prepubescent mind. He's like a 5 year old in the store...."oooh look. Candy bar." Bowlen needs to put a leash on the kid.

"Talent" is a relative term. Jay has a lot of physical talent for the position, that's true. A lot more than Cassel. But there are a lot of guys with physical talent. There are also mental "talents" that have as much or more to do with being a successful NFL QB. The ability to process and synthesize information in the film room, then go out on the field with a bunch of elephants who run like deer chasing you and apply all that information in a matter of seconds. Staying cool and making the right read. Finding the open man and not forcing things. All those things take talent, too, and it could be that Cassel is more talented in those areas. There were plenty of guys who had more physical talent than Joe Montana, but not many better. Not saying Cassel is Montana, of course, but just saying that your harping on "talent" may be misplaced. The jury is still out as to whether or not Jay has what it takes mentally to be a championship QB.

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 10:03 AM
Charlie Weis just called and said that sometimes success as an OC doesn't translate into success as a coach.

Can you read? I said that I wasn't claiming that being a great coordinator means you'll be a great head coach. The point is that to say Cassel is trash AND that McDaniels is an idiot doesn't work logically.

And yes, to consider Cassell over Cutler is beyond idiotic, it is brain dead.

If you think Jay's actually proven anything, then sure. A lot of people think the jury is still out.

eddie mac
03-13-2009, 10:10 AM
"Mr Potential Head".

Gotta love Sam Adams' take on Jay Cutler and ****ing spot on too.

bowtown
03-13-2009, 10:13 AM
For those who say Matt Cassel is trash, you have a terrible problem. The problem is this: if Cassel is trash, that means McDaniels is a freakin genius. There are no two ways about it. If Cassel is trash, then McDaniels took trash and made him an above average player for a year and helped his team team to an 11-5 record. And lest you say, "oh, well, he had Moss and Welker etc", sorry, you still lose. Moss was considered pure trash after his final season with Oakland before McD got hold of him. Welker had one REC TD in his career before McD got hold of him. Plus, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Scheffler ain't much worse than what NE had.

Sorry, haters, but there is no way around it. Either Cassel is a fine Qb and McDaniels gets no credit, or he's trash and McD gets MASSIVE credit for making trash look respectable.

You certainly can't argue that McD is a great OC... but for now that's the only credit he's getting from me, because that's the only credit he deserves.... for now.

And yes, Cassel is a big steaming pile of backup.

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 10:20 AM
You certainly can't argue that McD is a great OC... but for now that's the only credit he's getting from me, because that's the only credit he deserves.... for now.

And yes, Cassel is a big steaming pile of backup.

Fair enough, I'm not saying anyone should give McD credit beyond what he's actually accomplished. Just saying that people can't say Cassel is garbage while simultaneously maintaining that McD is an idiot. You seem to be giving him credit for what he's accomplished so fair enough.

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 11:35 AM
"Talent" is a relative term. Jay has a lot of physical talent for the position, that's true. A lot more than Cassel. But there are a lot of guys with physical talent. There are also mental "talents" that have as much or more to do with being a successful NFL QB. The ability to process and synthesize information in the film room, then go out on the field with a bunch of elephants who run like deer chasing you and apply all that information in a matter of seconds. Staying cool and making the right read. Finding the open man and not forcing things. All those things take talent, too, and it could be that Cassel is more talented in those areas. There were plenty of guys who had more physical talent than Joe Montana, but not many better. Not saying Cassel is Montana, of course, but just saying that your harping on "talent" may be misplaced. The jury is still out as to whether or not Jay has what it takes mentally to be a championship QB.

Jay's had to overcome a bottom feeding defense and an inconsistant running game since his first snaps in the NFL and still managed to win games. Every team's game plan against our O is shut down Jay and Cutler still carries the club to wins, even with an 8th string RB behind him. Christ we called Tatum Bell out of his cell phone career to take carries last year. Is there any team that game planned to stop "Family Plan"? No. Every series Cutler and the O took the field they had to put up points. Not just move the ball, not play field position, but take risks, gamble, make big plays and put up big points because our defenses for the past two seasons couldn't stop my grandma from getting to the mailbox for her social security check. No QB, not Montana, not Elway, not Cassell, put up the numbers Cutler has while having an 8th string RB and a 30th ranked D. The only thing that went right on this club last year was the O.

Northman
03-13-2009, 11:37 AM
For those who say Matt Cassel is trash, you have a terrible problem. The problem is this: if Cassel is trash, that means McDaniels is a freakin genius. There are no two ways about it. If Cassel is trash, then McDaniels took trash and made him an above average player for a year and helped his team team to an 11-5 record. And lest you say, "oh, well, he had Moss and Welker etc", sorry, you still lose. Moss was considered pure trash after his final season with Oakland before McD got hold of him. Welker had one REC TD in his career before McD got hold of him. Plus, Marshall, Royal, Stokely, Scheffler ain't much worse than what NE had.

Sorry, haters, but there is no way around it. Either Cassel is a fine Qb and McDaniels gets no credit, or he's trash and McD gets MASSIVE credit for making trash look respectable.


I guess we will find out for sure this year in K.C. Derek Anderson looked like a GOD for one year too. Time will tell.

BroncoMan4ever
03-13-2009, 11:38 AM
Oh, there are, Taco. Some call Cassel pure trash while simultaneously calling for McDs job. Look if you don't believe me. It's all over the board.

my only problem with McDaniels is the fact that, since he was able to turn a career backup who hadn't played in almost a decade into a good player in 1 season, why would he feel the need to try and unload a pro bowl QB, that if he is so good at mentoring QB's and making crap look good, why wouldn't he be chomping at the bit to see how much better he can make a pro bowl QB.

stupidity is why i hate McDaniels. nothing to do with what he was able to accomplish.

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 11:43 AM
my only problem with McDaniels is the fact that, since he was able to turn a career backup who hadn't played in almost a decade into a good player in 1 season, why would he feel the need to try and unload a pro bowl QB, that if he is so good at mentoring QB's and making crap look good, why wouldn't he be chomping at the bit to see how much better he can make a pro bowl QB.

stupidity is why i hate McDaniels. nothing to do with what he was able to accomplish.

This.:thumbsup:

Drek
03-13-2009, 11:50 AM
Jay's had to overcome a bottom feeding defense and an inconsistant running game since his first snaps in the NFL and still managed to win games. Every team's game plan against our O is shut down Jay and Cutler still carries the club to wins, even with an 8th string RB behind him. Christ we called Tatum Bell out of his cell phone career to take carries last year. Is there any team that game planned to stop "Family Plan"? No. Every series Cutler and the O took the field they had to put up points. Not just move the ball, not play field position, but take risks, gamble, make big plays and put up big points because our defenses for the past two seasons couldn't stop my grandma from getting to the mailbox for her social security check. No QB, not Montana, not Elway, not Cassell, put up the numbers Cutler has while having an 8th string RB and a 30th ranked D. The only thing that went right on this club last year was the O.

Put up big points? Like #16th most in the league big?

Who was Matt Cassel's QB last year? His OL is worse than what Cutler had and his WRs were probably comparable. He didn't even get an off-season of prepping with the guys and he was a more reliable QB than Cutler this season. Who was Tom Brady's QB the year before that?

Joseph Addai was never reliably health last year so Indy was playing similar musical chairs in the backfield. Their D was mediocre at best, their OL is a mix of young guys who haven't put it together yet or vets on their last legs, and one of his most reliable weapons, Harrison, was clearly toast. Manning still flipped the switch when needed to power his team into the playoffs.

They were #16 in points, the definition of mediocre. Their job was to score points. Therefore they were a mediocre offense. It doesn't matter how well they did the ancillary things like moving the ball up and down the field. When it was time to put the ball in the end zone and get 6 they did it at only a middle of the road clip.

Just like what Bill Parcells tells his players, you are what your numbers say you are, and this was a middle of the pack offense.

Drek
03-13-2009, 11:53 AM
my only problem with McDaniels is the fact that, since he was able to turn a career backup who hadn't played in almost a decade into a good player in 1 season, why would he feel the need to try and unload a pro bowl QB, that if he is so good at mentoring QB's and making crap look good, why wouldn't he be chomping at the bit to see how much better he can make a pro bowl QB.

stupidity is why i hate McDaniels. nothing to do with what he was able to accomplish.

Who says he wasn't?

But apparently some team offered to get him Cassel plus give him multiple day one picks. So why the hell wouldn't he listen?

He's a head coach now, not just an offensive coordinator. If all his job required of him was to put up big yardage numbers he'd probably never trade Cutler, but it doesn't. It requires him to win football games. You do that with a well rounded team and he was willing to consider that the fastest way to achieve said balance was to have a downgrade at QB help pay for upgrades across the board on defense. Sounds like smart budgeting from a HC who realizes that you need to invest talent on both sides of the ball.

anon
03-13-2009, 12:00 PM
This isn't even about Cassel vs. Cutler, because I don't believe a straight up trade was ever on the table. One interesting thing that people keep bringing up when talking about the two QBs is that "there are 10 other guys on the field" or that Jay had a sh*t defense. Both true, and the trades that were rumored to be considered involved Cassel and draft picks -- maybe McD decided he had a better chance with a solid QB with solid offensive players and the chance to draft a couple of defensive stars than a potential star QB and solid offense with a sh*t defense. Given that we are looking at a few years of reloading, that logic isn't so out of this world: loading up on young top-rated, drafted, and relatively cheap (rookie pay schedule) defensive talent is a smart thing.

And do I believe Cutler is very talented, more talented than Cassel? Yes. But I also can't find too much fault with McD giving some of the rumored trades some consideration.

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 12:04 PM
Put up big points? Like #16th most in the league big?

Who was Matt Cassel's QB last year? His OL is worse than what Cutler had and his WRs were probably comparable. He didn't even get an off-season of prepping with the guys and he was a more reliable QB than Cutler this season. Who was Tom Brady's QB the year before that?

Joseph Addai was never reliably health last year so Indy was playing similar musical chairs in the backfield. Their D was mediocre at best, their OL is a mix of young guys who haven't put it together yet or vets on their last legs, and one of his most reliable weapons, Harrison, was clearly toast. Manning still flipped the switch when needed to power his team into the playoffs.

They were #16 in points, the definition of mediocre. Their job was to score points. Therefore they were a mediocre offense. It doesn't matter how well they did the ancillary things like moving the ball up and down the field. When it was time to put the ball in the end zone and get 6 they did it at only a middle of the road clip.

Just like what Bill Parcells tells his players, you are what your numbers say you are, and this was a middle of the pack offense.

They were in a position where the HAD TO PUT UP BIG POINTS, not that they did it every series. All the pressure to win was on the O, there was no ability by the D to pick up the slack and win even one game. The D could barely get off of the field. Our best defensive play was "Holding, on the offense, number 65. Ten yard penalty remains 2nd down."

Nobody in the league was remotely in the position we were at RB last year. Hell, at one point Larsen started both ways so we could get a look at his performance at MLB. When have you seen that in the modern era of the NFL?

What helps in the RZ? A running game. What helps when your offense relies on PA? A running game. Christ we fawn over Elway but recognize, almost to a person, that Elway's true ability came out when he finally got a reliable running game. Where's the vaunted Denver running game?

Manning turned it on? Are you ****ting me? He got bounced by the 8-8 Chargers just like we did.

And where the hell did all of these Pats fans come from? I thought this was a Broncos board.

worm
03-13-2009, 12:13 PM
I personally think McD has gone down his Belicheck 'Patriot Way' recipe book, trying to check off items.

Get players that understand what you are about in the locker room. OK, got Lonnie and Jabar. Check.
No comment to media. Check.
Try to get 'your' guy at QB. Whiff.

He should have paid less attention to Bill at New England and more attention to him at Cleveland when he showed fan favorite Bernie the door and how that worked out for him.

Bottom line. The Broncos are paying a hell of a lot of money for a guy that is learning on the job.

skpac1001
03-13-2009, 12:40 PM
The two times we went against top 10 defenses we scored 13 and 7.

Despite an offense as talented as any in the league (I think at least), this offense is not a playoff/ superbowl offense. If Cutler gets credit for the lopsided scores against 23rd or worse defenses, he should be accoutable for this too.

The top 10 defenses were 9th and 10th by the way.

Jetmeck
03-13-2009, 02:28 PM
I don't care how you slice it, give Cutler the same defense and running game NE had and he outplays Cassell every time. This will all blow over when wonder boy struggles in KC and he will.

Mcdummy is not handling this situation right. We don't need a expressionless, emotionless hoodie wearing dipstick with no people skills in Denver. This my way or the highway BS has to end now.

Maybe we can get another long snapper, oh wait we got NE's.

Is their water boy available ?

Jetmeck
03-13-2009, 02:29 PM
I personally think McD has gone down his Belicheck 'Patriot Way' recipe book, trying to check off items.

Get players that understand what you are about in the locker room. OK, got Lonnie and Jabar. Check.
No comment to media. Check.
Try to get 'your' guy at QB. Whiff.

He should have paid less attention to Bill at New England and more attention to him at Cleveland when he showed fan favorite Bernie the door and how that worked out for him.

Bottom line. The Broncos are paying a hell of a lot of money for a guy that is learning on the job.


Yep and learning his people skills along the way.....because he sure had a great model for that in NE.

broncolife
03-13-2009, 03:16 PM
Even Griese had a good year under Shanny. Do I blame Kubes for his good year?No or all his years would have been good. But I blame Shanny for keeping that piece of shiat around though. I wish Shanny would have realized that before he resigned Griese to the big contract. Just because a qb looks good one year doesnt make him a good qb and doesnt make the coach a great coach either. If Cassel had three great years with Josh and then went to KC and sucked it up then I might think Josh did a great coaching job. But if he did do such a good coaching job wouldnt Cassel still be good or would the new coaches destroy him?

DBroncos4life
03-13-2009, 07:35 PM
Actually, no, we didn't have the #2 offense. Our offense was #16--i.e. medicore--in scoring, which is the stat that matters.

You should look at our rankings before we lost all our RBs.

azbroncfan
03-13-2009, 07:44 PM
McD did a great job with Cassel but to say he was junk was a complete unknown. He was recruited by USC which meant he had some serious skill young and was drafted into MLB so the guy had skill but never played so he was a complete unknown. McD and BB did a great job adjusting to him and allowing him to succeed.

wandlc
03-13-2009, 10:06 PM
The two times we went against top 10 defenses we scored 13 and 7.

Despite an offense as talented as any in the league (I think at least), this offense is not a playoff/ superbowl offense. If Cutler gets credit for the lopsided scores against 23rd or worse defenses, he should be accoutable for this too.

The top 10 defenses were 9th and 10th by the way.

Let's see, Denver 16 Tampa 13 and Denver 7 NE 41. Broncos won one of the games and lost one. In the loss I think a couple of early fumbles by a RB on drives that clearly were going well played a part in that loss and I think Marshall had an incident in that game as well and Champ also got hurt in that game.

wandlc
03-13-2009, 10:26 PM
You should look at our rankings before we lost all our RBs.

The Broncos were 8th in redzone efficiency before Peyton Hillis was injured, they had 27 TDs in 45 trips, at the end of the season they were 16th with 30 TDs in 55 trips. Redzone efficiency went from 60% in 13 games to 30% in the last 3 games after Hillis was injured.

SoCalBronco
03-13-2009, 10:27 PM
Can you read? I said that I wasn't claiming that being a great coordinator means you'll be a great head coach. .

Tommy Bowden for Broncos Head Coach! :)

2KBack
03-13-2009, 10:39 PM
Let's see, Denver 16 Tampa 13 and Denver 7 NE 41. Broncos won one of the games and lost one. In the loss I think a couple of early fumbles by a RB on drives that clearly were going well played a part in that loss and I think Marshall had an incident in that game as well and Champ also got hurt in that game.

and what's the excuse for scoring 10 points at home against the raiders?

Taco John
03-13-2009, 10:42 PM
The irony of this thread is that if McDaniels jerks with this offense, he'll make gold look like trash.

phisig150
03-13-2009, 10:52 PM
Maybe. But keep in mind damn good O-line. Great WRs in Marshall and Royal. Good TE options. 8 million rbs one has to stay healthy and pan out right? Interesting player in Hillis. Other than Moss might we have a better all around offense than the Pats last year? Even without Cutler.

Hulamau
03-13-2009, 10:55 PM
You're too much. Champ Baily held out and demanded a trade that ultimately made him a Bronco. I guess he's a "Head Case" too.

For you to compare Jay to TO is a great justification for not debating with you. Because our definitions obviously differ so vastly it would be meaningless. TO is a true head case. I agree as do many Doctors of Psychology. I couldn't have used a better example as a means to dignify my definition and more importantly why Jay is not a "head case".

Please carry on your position with those willing to dwell and agree with your sophomoric observations.

Correction, Champ Bailey was near the end of his contract. He did not have a Hissy fit with the press etc. Besides even if he HAD of done that it would still just be another example of an immature player with poor leadership skills and poor priorities.

Crazyhorse is right here .. on the money. Sad to say.

phisig150
03-13-2009, 10:59 PM
Anyone else worried long term about the diabetes?

Taco John
03-13-2009, 11:03 PM
Correction, Champ Bailey was near the end of his contract. He did not have a Hissy fit with the press etc.

Bailey wasn't a quarterback, so it wasn't quite the news that it is now, but he certainly did have what you're calling a "hissy fit." My best friend is a Redskins fan (Champ was his favorite player at the time), and said that Champ had made it clear that he wasn't coming back to Washington. He still had at least a year left on his deal.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 11:04 PM
Anyone else worried long term about the diabetes?

If this was the 1970's I'd be really concerned about it.

phisig150
03-13-2009, 11:05 PM
Question. Would you rather trade Champ or Cutler right now?

Taco John
03-13-2009, 11:07 PM
Question. Would you rather trade Champ or Cutler right now?

I don't want to trade either, but if those are the choices, I'd rather trade Champ.

phisig150
03-13-2009, 11:08 PM
If this was the 1970's I'd be really concerned about it.

Alright. I'm just saying it's something to take into consideration. The fact he can't separate the personal for just plain old business concerns me more.

phisig150
03-13-2009, 11:10 PM
I don't want to trade either, but if those are the choices, I'd rather trade Champ.

Age aside. Champ is better locker room leader and Cutler might be very divisive and undermine what the new coach is trying to achieve.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 11:17 PM
Age aside. Champ is better locker room leader and Cutler might be very divisive and undermine what the new coach is trying to achieve.

I hear you... But age was one of the things that I factored in chiefly, and Champ is seeming to get more banged up late in his career.

SoCalBronco
03-13-2009, 11:21 PM
Age aside. Champ is better locker room leader and Cutler might be very divisive and undermine what the new coach is trying to achieve.

So? He's not trying to achieve anything different than the other 32 coaches are trying to achieve: Wins. That he might not get along with Jay, or might not be comfortable with Jay is of little consequence. We're not going to rip up everything so that the new coach is comfortable that "his" men surround him. There's very, very little inherent value in that comfortability, especially at the cost that it would incur (talent drain).

The most important factor in the analysis is value. Despite remaining a top 5 NFL corner, he's no longer the undisputed top corner in the league anymore (I believe Asomugha is the top man, now, IMO) and as he continues to age, his skills will recede, albeit probably very incrementally. Cutler is in his prime, has already elevated himself probably into the top 6 in the league at his position and still has a pretty high remaining ceiling. As such, he provides more value and as between the two, we should part with Champ first. I am not suggesting that we DO so, Champ is a very, very valuable member of the team and the most valuable member of the defense, but if we were forced to part with one, it should not be Jay.

phisig150
03-13-2009, 11:24 PM
I hear you... But age was one of the things that I factored in chiefly, and Champ is seeming to get more banged up late in his career.

Obviously Cutler is top 10 talent at his position. But do you think he has the leadership or can at least develop them to take us to the SB? Hard to tell I know, being only his third year in the league. Didn't he react a little too bitchy in this whole situation regardless of how poorly McDaniels and Bowlen may or may not have handled this?

phisig150
03-13-2009, 11:57 PM
So? He's not trying to achieve anything different than the other 32 coaches are trying to achieve: Wins. That he might not get along with Jay, or might not be comfortable with Jay is of little consequence. We're not going to rip up everything so that the new coach is comfortable that "his" men surround him. There's very, very little inherent value in that comfortability, especially at the cost that it would incur (talent drain).

The most important factor in the analysis is value. Despite remaining a top 5 NFL corner, he's no longer the undisputed top corner in the league anymore (I believe Asomugha is the top man, now, IMO) and as he continues to age, his skills will recede, albeit probably very incrementally. Cutler is in his prime, has already elevated himself probably into the top 6 in the league at his position and still has a pretty high remaining ceiling. As such, he provides more value and as between the two, we should part with Champ first. I am not suggesting that we DO so, Champ is a very, very valuable member of the team and the most valuable member of the defense, but if we were forced to part with one, it should not be Jay.

If Cutler can't put his feelings aside then he'll become a cancer on the team. If that's case slang Cutler and stick with 30 plus Champ.

Taco John
03-14-2009, 12:07 AM
Obviously Cutler is top 10 talent at his position. But do you think he has the leadership or can at least develop them to take us to the SB? Hard to tell I know, being only his third year in the league. Didn't he react a little too b****y in this whole situation regardless of how poorly McDaniels and Bowlen may or may not have handled this?


Elway wasn't *THE* "team leader" until he slogged it out during "The Drive" in Cleveland. Before that, he was the hot shot primadonna yankee who didn't win anything at Stanford but was too good to play for the team that drafted him and forced his way into Denver. It's true that the Broncos record was good during those first years, but the leaders on that team were the guys that went by the name "The Orange Crush" and kept opponents from scoring any higher than the teens.

I think Cutler has the skills to win the team over and become the unquestioned leader like Elway was, but I think, just like Elway, there is always going to be a healthy amount of detractors who will say he doesn't have the personality to pull it off.

I definitely agree that Cutler hasn't handled this situation well. That's been my take since the beginning. But that said, looking at this situation from an interpersonal perspective, I can't blame him. I think a simple phone call and some frank talk up front would have solved all the problems instead of letting Cutler find out about this through the media or the agent back channels. How can a coach let the media get to the player first? That's piss poor communication skills there. A huge gaffe that is costing this organization a ton.

phisig150
03-14-2009, 12:14 AM
Elway wasn't *THE* "team leader" until he slogged it out during "The Drive" in Cleveland. Before that, he was the hot shot primadonna yankee who was too good to play for the team that drafted him and forced his way into Denver. It's true that the Broncos record was good during those first years, but the leaders on that team were the guys that went by the name "The Orange Crush" and kept opponents from scoring any higher than the teens.

I think Cutler has the skills to win the team over and become the unquestioned leader like Elway was, but I think, just like Elway, there is always going to be a healthy amount of detractors who will say he doesn't have the personality to pull it off.

I definitely agree that Cutler hasn't handled this situation well. That's been my take since the beginning. But that said, looking at this situation from an interpersonal perspective, I can't blame him. I think a simple phone call and some frank talk up front would have solved all the problems instead of letting Cutler find out about this through the media or the agent back channels.

As weird as it sounds I'm a diehard Bronco fan for 20 plus years BUT not a big Elway guy. Flame on. Not sure we have all the facts as of yet. Hard to believe Cutler was kept in the dark. If they just simply listened to offers and if Peter King is correct when he reports that Cutler requested a trade when Bates was let go then F' Cutler let's trade him, build up the D and roll with a Simms type replacement for a year or two.

Hulamau
03-14-2009, 02:14 AM
my only problem with McDaniels is the fact that, since he was able to turn a career backup who hadn't played in almost a decade into a good player in 1 season, why would he feel the need to try and unload a pro bowl QB, that if he is so good at mentoring QB's and making crap look good, why wouldn't he be chomping at the bit to see how much better he can make a pro bowl QB.

stupidity is why i hate McDaniels. nothing to do with what he was able to accomplish.

Speaking of 'stupid' that last sentence itself begs thequestion?...

And McD WAS chomping at the bit to work with Cutler when he came here. But when the very SAME GUY he successfully mentored and who won in his first year in this complex system suddenly came into focus in a possible trade that would ALSO add ADDITIONAL badly needed elements to this team that has many holes to fill before consistent winning is possible, That is when McD entertained the idea ... and rightly so!

At least looking at that scenario was the right thing to do, though it seems they were not going to fork Jay over for a lark plus Cassel which is also the right thing to not have done.

So you will notice Cutler is STILL the QB when Cassel was no longer available!

Now this statement: "stupidity is why I (you) HATE McDaniels ... nothing to do with what he was able to accomplish.

Hummmmm!!! seeing how McD doesn't use his physical talents (if any) to accomplish his job, it appears he relies to a very large degree on his INTELLECT & JUDGMENT Thus his accomplishments being fairly substantial for a guy of 32 indicates that in fact he must be very intelligent and sharp on his feet which is the opposite of being "Stupid".

No doubt he has, and will continue to, make mistakes now and in the future, including good choices and bad choices, but I doubt many will be made out of 'stupidity'. Sometimes a person can be too clever for their own good at times as well, and maybe you can argue that line here, but why don't you hold your water a bit and see how all of this works out in the end before crowning McD the 'stupidest' high achievement coach around".

The question of who is being 'smart' or 'stupid' here is far more likely to be answered when we see what Jay does on Monday?