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spdirty
03-12-2009, 12:39 AM
17-20.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense isnt absolutely pathetic (meaning 30 points or less a game allowed) - 14-7.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is half decent (meaning 22 points or less per game allowed) - 12-1.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is absolutely pathetic (30 or more ppg allowed) - 3-13

Point is the fact that he even needs defending is pathetic. Maybe some of you need to look at Montanas, or Elways, or Peyton Mannings, or Tom Bradys records when the defense takes a shlt. Maybe ill do it tomorrow when I have more time. Guys like Cutler dont come around every so often. Anyway, heard it on the radio today, as many of you have probably also have, and wanted to get it on here before the McDaniels fanboys quote that incredibly misleading overall record one more time to idiodically claim that Jay Cutler is Leaf/George. Probably the same ones who thought Reeves was the end all be all and Elway was also a spoiled little punk.

Bottom line is you give Jay even a middle of the road defense that gives up 300 points in a year and this team takes off. And that HAS been proven.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 12:42 AM
This has already been covered. It is the same with damn near every QB. Records are a team acomplishment, not a individual one.


End Thread Please.

ludo21
03-12-2009, 12:42 AM
those are interesting numbers indeed.

I seriously hope the bridge gets mended here, Denver needs Cutler more than Cutler needs Denver. Lets hope it works out.

Taco John
03-12-2009, 12:43 AM
Jay Cutler will be experiencing his fourth defensive coordinator in four years.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 12:44 AM
Jay Cutler will be experiencing his fourth defensive coordinator in four years.

What's that got to do with Cutler and his offense? Nothing.


End Thread Please.

BroncoBuff
03-12-2009, 12:46 AM
Jay Cutlers record when the defense isnt absolutely pathetic (meaning 30 points or less a game allowed) - 14-7.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is half decent (meaning 22 points or less per game allowed) - 12-1.
HELLO! Thanks spdirty ... very interesting indeed.
.

BroncosinDC
03-12-2009, 01:03 AM
I did this in an elementry form with Elway and Cutler's defenses for their first 3 seasons and posted it.

The Broncos in

1983 were 21/28 in defense
1984 were 25/28 in defense
1985 were 13/28 in defense

The Broncos in

2006 were 14/32 in defense
2007 were 19/32 in defense
2008 were 29/32 in defense

So for every stat you can find one to make it look wrong...bottom line is Elway had similar crappy defenses but a much better record. Anything else is just an excuse. Reeves v. Shannahan, this stat makes Reeves look better but I doubt we can find someone here to agree with that. Stats are nice for the back of TOPPS cards, and HOF resume's but winning records and rings are all that matter in the end.

extralife
03-12-2009, 01:05 AM
But is the comparison really John Elway? Does a QB in this town have to be at least as good as a first ballot hall of famer in order to be worth keeping around?

Dudeskey
03-12-2009, 01:23 AM
Now if both sides can get over themselves...

Popps
03-12-2009, 01:31 AM
Guys... the whole thing about is record is simple. It's being made too difficult...

1. He doesn't have a winning record.

2. That isn't all his fault, and probably very little his fault.

But, the reason his record is being brought up is that he's reacting to the possibility of being traded as if he's accomplished something in this league. Whether it's your fault your team is a loser or not... people rarely take bitching from a losing QB well, particularly one with a questionable demeanor and a rep for popping off at the mouth.

So, you have to separate the issues here. No one is saying it's Jay's fault he's not a winner. What all of these experienced pros are saying... is that regardless of circumstance, he's a young, non-winning QB who is acting as if he's (quote) "entitled" to things.

He's not.

Again... it doesn't matter if it's his fault with regard to how people are perceiving his actions. People just want to know what you've done in this league, and putting up a few numbers doesn't give you the right to act as if you're a Hall of Fame QB... and hence untradable.

extralife
03-12-2009, 01:34 AM
At the same time, I defy you to name a QB in the history of this league with Cutler's talent level that was traded at his age. Maybe he's not entitled to be kept around, but the team would be nothing but a bunch of fools to move him all the same. A franchise QB is the hardest thing to get your hands on in all of professional sports; if Cutler isn't one, he's closer to it than anyone else we could possibly end up with.

Popps
03-12-2009, 01:45 AM
At the same time, I defy you to name a QB in the history of this league with Cutler's talent level that was traded at his age. Maybe he's not entitled to be kept around, but the team would be nothing but a bunch of fools to move him all the same.

Brett Favre. There are more... and better QBs who have been traded, but there's your one example.


Jay wasn't even traded. This whole Cutlergate thing could have died if he just acted like a man about it and said... "I hope I get to stay in Denver, but I'll win for whatever team I play for."

End of story. End of saga. End of issue.

But, Jay keeps draaaaaaaaging it out.

I wonder why that might be?

extralife
03-12-2009, 01:53 AM
Brett might work, but he was a second round pick with zero game experience when he was dealt. Jay is a fourth year player with a pro bowl under his belt and very favorable statistics, including the franchise record for yards passing in a season. I find it very, very hard to compare the two.

And, uhhhh, citing the Falcon's letting go of Brett isn't really helping you here. How well did that work out for them?

And do you really think this would be over if he said "I'll win for whatever team I play for"? People would be playing up the "Jay is just an apathetic loser; he doesn't get what it means to play QB for the Denver Broncos" angle. You can mark that down. This is a rough town. Jay's original words almost were that anyway. He said he was shocked and disappointed, which is both an understandable and extremely common reaction. The problem, as a million people have said a million times, is one of trust. Jay perceives that he was lied to; in response the team has basically said "yeah how about you show up for our OTA's." When asked by the media whether or not there was a trade in place for Cassel, McDaniels said "No comment," and only later (when Cassel was off the market) said that Jay Cutler was not being traded. Jay is a smart guy. He smells the bull****. Hell, maybe it ain't even there, but it sure isn't hard to see it like that.

watermock
03-12-2009, 02:17 AM
What's that got to do with Cutler and his offense? Nothing.


End Thread Please.

Why?

It has all to do with the worst defense in the NFL.

watermock
03-12-2009, 02:23 AM
But, the reason his record is being brought up is that he's reacting to the possibility of being traded as if he's accomplished something in this league.


You dumbass. He led the #2 offense in the NFL without a RB or a defanse.

Oh yes, I forgot. ProBowl in his 3rd season DESPITE missing the playoffs.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 02:28 AM
Why?

It has all to do with the worst defense in the NFL.

Mock, STFU.

My statement was in response to Taco talking about Jay will be with his 4th DC in 4 years.

Once again, that has nothing to do with him, nor the offense.

Now get back to your tractor racing.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 02:30 AM
You dumbass. He led the #2 offense in the NFL without a RB or a defanse.

Oh yes, I forgot. ProBowl in his 3rd season DESPITE missing the playoffs.

A pro bowl nod after he choked down the stretch with 3 games to go to miss the playoffs. Blame the defense all you want, but it isn't like he had nothing to do with those 3 losses.

So again. STFU.

Mr Chatterboodamn
03-12-2009, 02:39 AM
This whole Cutlergate thing could have died if he just acted like a man about it and said... "I hope I get to stay in Denver, but I'll win for whatever team I play for."

End of story. End of saga. End of issue.

But, Jay keeps draaaaaaaaging it out.



I like how you say that Jay should somehow be terse, "man up" and let things go, yet you seem to have a most nettlesome bee in your bonnet about the issue. It's kinda like when mock would call a player a "flavor clown" back in the day. You might very well be the most vociferous and inflammatory person on the planet on either side of the cutler/mcdaniel/shanahan controversy. Honestly, for me, it comes down to not wanting the team to operate in the cutthroat patriot way. That was the reason I hated the NFC growing up. We're looking like Camp Northstar now except the players have to bring a stupid Vrabelesque lunchpail to work. ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I'll take 7-9 over 13-3 if it involves the vrabel aesthetic. I don't know if that's exactly where we're headed, but it's looking that way.

watermock
03-12-2009, 03:18 AM
A pro bowl nod after he choked down the stretch with 3 games to go to miss the playoffs. Blame the defense all you want, but it isn't like he had nothing to do with those 3 losses.

So again. STFU.

I'm the one who warned about a potential collapse. Cutler was pressed more than Elway ever was.

We had a cell phone salesman and cooked crack as our running attack.

GREAT BRONCO, check the last 3 games defensively.

DUMBASS

Cutler was playing against a loaded deck.

Whatever.

Welcome to 6-10. Even with this weak division.

watermock
03-12-2009, 03:27 AM
Popps is just like Manny being Manny.

Him and Appa have chased alot of posters off, or I might say, good posters.

Most of the intellectual posters saw this coming.

Shanahan has 15 million to finish his mansion.

Bowlen has a team is dissaray.

UberBroncoMan
03-12-2009, 03:48 AM
I did this in an elementry form with Elway and Cutler's defenses for their first 3 seasons and posted it.

The Broncos in

1983 were 21/28 in defense
1984 were 25/28 in defense
1985 were 13/28 in defense

The Broncos in

2006 were 14/32 in defense
2007 were 19/32 in defense
2008 were 29/32 in defense

So for every stat you can find one to make it look wrong...bottom line is Elway had similar crappy defenses but a much better record. Anything else is just an excuse. Reeves v. Shannahan, this stat makes Reeves look better but I doubt we can find someone here to agree with that. Stats are nice for the back of TOPPS cards, and HOF resume's but winning records and rings are all that matter in the end.

Yards a game don't matter as much if you can stop them from scoring, though it's still bad - the total defense he was talking about was POINTS ALLOWED.

Lets look at the real Elway defense.

In 1983 we were 9th in points allowed
In 1984 we were 2nd (SECOND) in points allowed

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=null&archive=true&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&d-447263-o=1&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-n=1&season=1984&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1

Stare at it too if you don't believe

In 1985 we were 13th in points allowed. (Elway threw 23 int's this year)


Lets move to Cutler's defense shall we?

We were 8th (yep) in 2006 in points allowed - it should be noted that Jay didn't start that entire season.

Now we move to the Slowik Era (Slowik took over for Bates during 2007)

In 2007 we were 28th in points allowed

Cant get much worse can it??? mhmm

In 2008 we were 30th in points allowed


If you look at the guy's stats he's talking about points allowed not "yards." Who cares if you give up a ton of yards if the other team doesn't score. Also what I find AMAZING about the Broncos D during Elway is that Elway THREW MORE INTERCEPTIONS than Cutler and his D still managed to prevent a ton of scoring.

I mean holy crap... 13th in points allowed in a year Elway threw 23 (TWENTY THREE) interceptions.

If Cutler had that type of D, Shanahan would still be here and we would have made the playoffs in 06... and surely in 08.

Cut it anyway you want, Elway had a vastly superior defense WINNING games for him with their D when he was a young QB. Look at the amount of INT's Elway had in his first 3 years.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

Hell look at his completion percentage. He was sacked under 30 times his first two years too, which isn't "horrific" by any means.

BAM!

elsid13
03-12-2009, 03:55 AM
Brett Favre. There are more... and better QBs who have been traded, but there's your one example.


Jay wasn't even traded. This whole Cutlergate thing could have died if he just acted like a man about it and said... "I hope I get to stay in Denver, but I'll win for whatever team I play for."

End of story. End of saga. End of issue.

But, Jay keeps draaaaaaaaging it out.

I wonder why that might be?

Bret Favre wasn't trade when he was a young starting QB that just accomplished a record setting season for his club. He was 3rd stringer in ATL and old fart in GB when the trade was made. Try again or just make **** up like you usually do.

The only one that might come close is Bledsoe, but he was coming of an injury plagued season that regulated him to the beach and Brady playing in front of him.

watermock
03-12-2009, 03:55 AM
Dimwits still don't get it.

Shanahan built the offense from scatch, next was the D.

McDummy is going to blow up the offense and leave the D in shambles.

TDmvp
03-12-2009, 03:56 AM
Yards a game don't matter as much if you can stop them from scoring, though it's still bad - the total defense he was talking about was POINTS ALLOWED.

Lets look at the real Elway defense.

In 1983 we were 9th in points allowed
In 1984 we were 2nd (SECOND) in points allowed

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=null&archive=true&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&d-447263-o=1&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-n=1&season=1984&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1

Stare at it too if you don't believe

In 1985 we were 13th in points allowed. (Elway threw 23 int's this year)


Lets move to Cutler's defense shall we?

We were 8th (yep) in 2006 in points allowed - it should be noted that Jay didn't start that entire season.

Now we move to the Slowik Era (Slowik took over for Bates during 2007)

In 2007 we were 28th in points allowed

Cant get much worse can it??? mhmm

In 2008 we were 30th in points allowed


If you look at the guy's stats he's talking about points allowed not "yards." Who cares if you give up a ton of yards if the other team doesn't score. Also what I find AMAZING about the Broncos D during Elway is that Elway THREW MORE INTERCEPTIONS than Cutler and his D still managed to prevent a ton of scoring.

I mean holy crap... 13th in points allowed in a year Elway threw 23 (TWENTY THREE) interceptions.

If Cutler had that type of D, Shanahan would still be here and we would have made the playoffs in 06... and surely in 08.

Cut it anyway you want, Elway had a vastly superior defense WINNING games for him with their D when he was a young QB. Look at the amount of INT's Elway had in his first 3 years.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

Hell look at his completion percentage. He was sacked under 30 times his first two years too, which isn't "horrific" by any means.

BAM!

good stuff ...

TDmvp
03-12-2009, 04:01 AM
Dimwits still don't get it.

Shanahan built the offense from scatch, next was the D.

McDummy is going to blow up the offense and leave the D in shambles.

yup ... and im so bummed i'm not going to get to see Jay mature with Shanny...

Mike had the O ready to hunt and finally got the qb to run the whole playbook and the D was next ... Hell we almost made the playoffs with a historic bad D. We was going to be good to great for a decade.

Now we are the lead in story on most sports shows and made fun of in the media nationally .
Great we are the Bengals ...

broncofan7
03-12-2009, 06:05 AM
I did this in an elementry form with Elway and Cutler's defenses for their first 3 seasons and posted it.

The Broncos in

1983 were 21/28 in defense
1984 were 25/28 in defense
1985 were 13/28 in defense
The Broncos in

2006 were 14/32 in defense
2007 were 19/32 in defense
2008 were 29/32 in defense

So for every stat you can find one to make it look wrong...bottom line is Elway had similar crappy defenses but a much better record. Anything else is just an excuse. Reeves v. Shannahan, this stat makes Reeves look better but I doubt we can find someone here to agree with that. Stats are nice for the back of TOPPS cards, and HOF resume's but winning records and rings are all that matter in the end.

I'm not sure what your stats are referring to but here are the scoring defense rankings:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...seasonType=REG

in 1983 we gave up 20.4 pts/gm--9th in the NFL
in 1984 we gave up 15.1 pts/gm--2ND in the NFL
in 1985 we gave up 20.6 pts/gm---13th in the league

in 2006 we gave up 19.1pts/gm--8th in the NFL--VEEEERRRY misleading--2nd half of the season it was around 25-26 I believe
in 2007 we gave up 25.6 pts/gm--28th in the NFL
in 2008 we gave up 28 pts/gm--30th in the NFL

There you have it folks..get the PPG around 20 and we will be in the playoffs...........

spdirty
03-12-2009, 07:47 AM
I'm not sure what your stats are referring to but here are the scoring defense rankings:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...seasonType=REG

in 1983 we gave up 20.4 pts/gm--9th in the NFL
in 1984 we gave up 15.1 pts/gm--2ND in the NFL
in 1985 we gave up 20.6 pts/gm---13th in the league

in 2006 we gave up 19.1pts/gm--8th in the NFL--VEEEERRRY misleading--2nd half of the season it was around 25-26 I believe
in 2007 we gave up 25.6 pts/gm--28th in the NFL
in 2008 we gave up 28 pts/gm--30th in the NFL

There you have it folks..get the PPG around 20 and we will be in the playoffs...........

we gave up an average of 28 ppg during Cutlers 5 games in '06.

Steve Prefontaine
03-12-2009, 08:00 AM
Brett Favre. There are more... and better QBs who have been traded, but there's your one example.


Jay wasn't even traded. This whole Cutlergate thing could have died if he just acted like a man about it and said... "I hope I get to stay in Denver, but I'll win for whatever team I play for."

End of story. End of saga. End of issue.

But, Jay keeps draaaaaaaaging it out.

I wonder why that might be?

Wow. Brett Farve was a young Pro Bowl QB when he was traded. That is a very good comparison.

So you blame this on Cutler for dragging this out (whatever that means) because he didn’t make a public statement about staying in Denver? Wow.

CEH
03-12-2009, 08:17 AM
Wow. Brett Farve was a young Pro Bowl QB when he was traded. That is a very good comparison.

So you blame this on Cutler for dragging this out (whatever that means) because he didn’t make a public statement about staying in Denver? Wow.

Farve was young 2nd year but not a Pro Bowler

Fact is I don't want to trade Cutler. I think he can take this team far with an average defense. He has to score 30+ 45 % of the time. Compare that to Big Ben who has to score 30 + only 15% of the time in his 90 starts.

I want both. I want Cutler to play QB and I want McD to lead this team

I hope this is how it turns out.

Kaylore
03-12-2009, 08:22 AM
This isn't really news. It's the biggest reason Shanahan got fired, in my opinion. I think Hillis stays healthy and we make the playoffs, though. A consistent running attack would have helped Cutler a lot, especially in the red zone.

Gort
03-12-2009, 08:28 AM
you want stats? here are some...

Jay Cutler

games played = 37
INTs = 37
fumbles/fumbles lost = 24/18
total turnovers = 55
TD passes = 54
TD rushes = 3

57 TDs (passing & rushing) vs. 55 turnovers.

that's a ratio of 1.04:1. that's not an elite QB.

a similar analysis of Peyton Manning yields,

350 TDs (passing & rushing) vs. 199 turnovers in 176 games

that's a ratio of 1.76: 1

Beantown Bronco
03-12-2009, 08:31 AM
you want stats? here are some...

Jay Cutler

games played = 37
INTs = 37
fumbles/fumbles lost = 24/18
total turnovers = 55
TD passes = 54
TD rushes = 3

57 TDs (passing & rushing) vs. 55 turnovers.

that's a ratio of 1.04:1. that's not an elite QB.

a similar analysis of Peyton Manning yields,

350 TDs (passing & rushing) vs. 199 turnovers in 176 games

that's a ratio of 1.76: 1

You just dug yourself into a hole with that one.

Peyton Mannings first 32 games:

52 TDs - 43 INTs - 9 Fumbles - 4 Lost Fumbles

that's a ratio of 1.1 to 1.

Apparently, Manning is not an elite QB.

spdirty
03-12-2009, 08:34 AM
This isn't really news. It's the biggest reason Shanahan got fired, in my opinion. I think Hillis stays healthy and we make the playoffs, though. A consistent running attack would have helped Cutler a lot, especially in the red zone.

It may not really be news but it gives some perspective to the silly folks who want to spout his overall record as ammo to say that Jay sucks, Jay is Ryan Leaf, Jay is eff George, etc.

Gort
03-12-2009, 08:36 AM
You just dug yourself into a hole with that one.

Peyton Mannings first 32 games:

52 TDs - 43 INTs - 9 Fumbles - 4 Lost Fumbles

that's a ratio of 1.1 to 1.

Apparently, Manning is not an elite QB.

it depends on what my point is, doesn't it?

after 3 years, Peyton Manning wasn't acting like an elite QB (and he wasn't at that point!) who was bigger than his own head coach and demanding a no trade guarantee. Cutler is. but he hasn't yet EARNED any such status with his play on the field.

Lolad
03-12-2009, 08:36 AM
it depends on what my point is, doesn't it?

after 3 years, Peyton Manning wasn't acting like an elite QB (and he wasn't at that point!) who was bigger than his own head coach and demanding a no trade guarantee. Cutler is. but he hasn't yet EARNED any such status with his play on the field.

He couldn't act like an elite QB he was awful. I thought him and Leef were both bust until he turned it around. Jay was miffed about being traded "shocked" he was being traded for a guy who had 1 good year. After his franchise record setting year with no RB.

Haha.. It's funny how the Cutler haters are throwing out STATS and being totally demolished.

With a defense it is proven when looking at the STATS that Cutler is a winner. He needs to stay a Bronco and Mcidiot needs to focus on our piss poor DEFENSE!

SoDak Bronco
03-12-2009, 08:36 AM
Any person with any sense realizes Jay Cutler should not be traded. You don't trade a up-and-coming QB with his upside in coming to the PRIME of his career. Anyone who has watched the Broncos over the past 3 years realizes that team has not lost because of Jay Cutler. We have lost because the defense we've fielded has been down-right pathetic. All these Jay bashers are going to be crying even more if we get rid of him and we suck even worse, so at the end of the day, we need to keep or QB, mend the fences and move foward. Does Jay need to grow up some and prove his worth, YES, but McD needs to show him some love and make this relationship better. If we have an avg defense next year, I think we make it to the playoffs.

spdirty
03-12-2009, 08:38 AM
Haha.. It's funny how the Cutler haters are throwing out STATS and being totally demolished.

With a defense it is proven when looking at the STATS that Cutler is a winner. He needs to stay a Bronco and Mcidiot needs to focus on our piss poor DEFENSE!

yep

Gort
03-12-2009, 08:39 AM
Any person with any sense realizes Jay Cutler should not be traded. You don't trade a up-and-coming QB with his upside in coming to the PRIME of his career. Anyone who has watched the Broncos over the past 3 years realizes that team has not lost because of Jay Cutler. We have lost because the defense we've fielded has been down-right pathetic. All these Jay bashers are going to be crying even more if we get rid of him and we suck even worse, so at the end of the day, we need to keep or QB, mend the fences and move foward. Does Jay need to grow up some and prove his worth, YES, but McD needs to show him some love and make this relationship better. If we have an avg defense next year, I think we make it to the playoffs.

read the thread about Buss Cook. i think the die is cast and Jay's days in Denver are numbered. not because of the FO. not even necessarily because of Jay. i think his agent has orchestrated this 2-week "story" for his own purposes (to help Jay get a big pay day) and it will linger all the way until training camp. by that time, i think the FO will be fed up and most of the fans will too.

Beantown Bronco
03-12-2009, 08:44 AM
it depends on what my point is, doesn't it?

after 3 years, Peyton Manning wasn't acting like an elite QB (and he wasn't at that point!) who was bigger than his own head coach and demanding a no trade guarantee. Cutler is. but he hasn't yet EARNED any such status with his play on the field.

What you, and some others - including the media - aren't realizing is one VERY key thing. Cutler NEVER had a problem with the concept of being traded. What he had a problem with was the team not communicating with him and then, when they did, LYING about what happened/was happening.

Kaylore
03-12-2009, 08:46 AM
It may not really be news but it gives some perspective to the silly folks who want to spout his overall record as ammo to say that Jay sucks, Jay is Ryan Leaf, Jay is eff George, etc.

Ryan Leaf just sucked. He had a poor attitude and wasn't any good. Jeff George was a good player with an attitude that estranged him from the staff and the locker room. At least some of the locker room is supporting Jay and including, most importantly, his offensive line.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that he's behaving immaturely and has been doing so for a few years here in Denver in a variety of ways. Nor does his skill make him "right" on this issue. If anything it's a hindrance because its developed in him a sense of entitlement.

Lolad
03-12-2009, 08:59 AM
Ryan Leaf just sucked. He had a poor attitude and wasn't any good. Jeff George was a good player with an attitude that estranged him from the staff and the locker room. At least some of the locker room is supporting Jay and including, most importantly, his offensive line.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that he's behaving immaturely and has been doing so for a few years here in Denver in a variety of ways. Nor does his skill make him "right" on this issue. If anything it's a hindrance because its developed in him a sense of entitlement.

You don't think he deserves to be here? I'm having a real hard time understanding why Cutler shouldn't be "SHOCKED" about being put on the trading block. I mean he just broke almost every Franchise record last year, and doing so when teams knew we were throwing the football. Cutler just wasn't good enough to get it done I guess? Even though this thread proves every single one of you wrong

Kaylore
03-12-2009, 09:08 AM
You don't think he deserves to be here? I'm having a real hard time understanding why Cutler shouldn't be "SHOCKED" about being put on the trading block. I mean he just broke almost every Franchise record last year, and doing so when teams knew we were throwing the football. Cutler just wasn't good enough to get it done I guess? Even though this thread proves every single one of you wrong

I don't think he deserves to be here? Where did you get that? I think he should be here with his nose in a playbook working out with his team, not whining down in Nashville.

Archer81
03-12-2009, 09:11 AM
Good thing we live in a land of parsed numbers and stupid logic. Jay is 17-20. He has 0 playoff appearances. He can break every record in the world but none of it matters if there is never a possibility of a superbowl win.

:Broncos:

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 09:15 AM
it depends on what my point is, doesn't it?

after 3 years, Peyton Manning wasn't acting like an elite QB (and he wasn't at that point!) who was bigger than his own head coach and demanding a no trade guarantee. Cutler is. but he hasn't yet EARNED any such status with his play on the field.

Peyton wasn't put in that situation either.

colonelbeef
03-12-2009, 09:19 AM
17-20.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense isnt absolutely pathetic (meaning 30 points or less a game allowed) - 14-7.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is half decent (meaning 22 points or less per game allowed) - 12-1.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is absolutely pathetic (30 or more ppg allowed) - 3-13

Point is the fact that he even needs defending is pathetic. Maybe some of you need to look at Montanas, or Elways, or Peyton Mannings, or Tom Bradys records when the defense takes a shlt. Maybe ill do it tomorrow when I have more time. Guys like Cutler dont come around every so often. Anyway, heard it on the radio today, as many of you have probably also have, and wanted to get it on here before the McDaniels fanboys quote that incredibly misleading overall record one more time to idiodically claim that Jay Cutler is Leaf/George. Probably the same ones who thought Reeves was the end all be all and Elway was also a spoiled little punk.

Bottom line is you give Jay even a middle of the road defense that gives up 300 points in a year and this team takes off. And that HAS been proven.

Spectacular post, good summarization all around. Cutler is a top 5 QB in the NFL, TODAY. He is 25 and has an ego. So What? Anyone who wants to give him away is a ****ing moron.

Popcorn Sutton
03-12-2009, 09:19 AM
A pro bowl nod after he choked down the stretch with 3 games to go to miss the playoffs. Blame the defense all you want, but it isn't like he had nothing to do with those 3 losses.

So again. STFU.

Who pissed in your cheerios?

Broncomutt
03-12-2009, 09:24 AM
In the end, it all comes down to bottom line.

You can emphasize certain stats all you want to try and prove your point, but in the end most people will just yawn and say "What was his W/L record?"

At least, that's what I do everytime somebody tries to convince me Marino was better than Elway.

~Crash~
03-12-2009, 09:26 AM
I did this in an elementry form with Elway and Cutler's defenses for their first 3 seasons and posted it.

The Broncos in

1983 were 21/28 in defense
1984 were 25/28 in defense
1985 were 13/28 in defense

The Broncos in

2006 were 14/32 in defense
2007 were 19/32 in defense
2008 were 29/32 in defense

So for every stat you can find one to make it look wrong...bottom line is Elway had similar crappy defenses but a much better record. Anything else is just an excuse. Reeves v. Shannahan, this stat makes Reeves look better but I doubt we can find someone here to agree with that. Stats are nice for the back of TOPPS cards, and HOF resume's but winning records and rings are all that matter in the end.

you are wrong sorry those D's of elways could stop people on a occasion . they kept games close . this D kept nothing close .

~Crash~
03-12-2009, 09:50 AM
Good thing we live in a land of parsed numbers and stupid logic. Jay is 17-20. He has 0 playoff appearances. He can break every record in the world but none of it matters if there is never a possibility of a superbowl win.

:Broncos:

and he says that with a straght faces :slapsilly

Lolad
03-12-2009, 10:05 AM
Good thing we live in a land of parsed numbers and stupid logic. Jay is 17-20. He has 0 playoff appearances. He can break every record in the world but none of it matters if there is never a possibility of a superbowl win.

:Broncos:

This thread proves that Cutlers performance is based on the defense, the NFL is a TEAM sport! How will there EVER be a possibility of a SB win when our defense is ranked 30th? I guess he's supposed to score 30+ points a game and overcome our pissy defense to make you believe in his play??? You're pathetic

BroncoBuff
03-12-2009, 10:09 AM
Jay Cutler

games played = 37
INTs = 37
fumbles/fumbles lost = 24/18
total turnovers = 55
TD passes = 54
TD rushes = 3

57 TDs (passing & rushing) vs. 55 turnovers.

that's a ratio of 1.04:1.

a similar analysis of Peyton Manning yields,

350 TDs (passing & rushing) vs. 199 turnovers in 176 games

that's a ratio of 1.76: 1You just dug yourself into a hole with that one.

Peyton Mannings first 32 games:

52 TDs - 43 INTs - 9 Fumbles - 4 Lost Fumbles

that's a ratio of 1.1 to 1.

Great stuff, guys, thanks.

This is an excellent thread ... and that's one in a million these days :~ohyah!:

Broncos4tw
03-12-2009, 10:13 AM
I'm still fairly stunned at all the angst at Jay. He had the coach he developed a relationship with fired without warning. He had his QB coach fired without warning. Then they tried to trade HIM without warning, because McD wanted to bask in the comfort zone of a QB that already is familiar with his system, in his headcoaching debut. I don't think for a minute that the coach thought that Jay was not a good a player. Or if he did, I'm frightened.

Could Jay have acted better? Yea, probably. More mature? Yea, but again, he is still a fairly young guy. He is acting a bit petulant, but even so, people blew his comments out of proportion. Then on the call, they act as if it was Jay's idea! I'd be PO'd as well.

I also DO like McD. I just wish both parties would shut up and fix their problems, and start building a better machine.

But acting as if Jay is a detriment is making me boggle. He IS a team player. He does not sulk like some QBs we've seen, after bad plays. He goes back out and ignores the previous screw ups. He is not a showboater. He IS a braggart to a degree. But he doesn't have a fraction of the issues many franchise players do.

There is NO WAY we'd get anyone for crap that will fill in and create success. We will be trash for YEARS if we get rid of Jay. People who say Jay is not 'very good' baffle me. What in the hell have you been watching? Manning when his defense is horrible is equally horrible. So was Elway! I saw an article in the Post today that gave those #s, and Elway and Manning both were 1-16 when their teams allowed the same amount of points as our horrible D has been allowing (may have been even more.. but the jist was clear, crappy defenses are very hard to overcome for any D). The only reason our own turnovers stood out so much, is because of our defenses inability to get any of their own. We were setting record low #s for turnovers last year. Asking a QB or an offense to score on every drive or NEVER turn the ball over, because you know your defense won't even it up, is ludicrous.

During the SB years, we actually had a mediocre D, but our offense was so potent, it did not matter. Robinson just had to blitz-blitz-blitz after we got up a couple scores early. It's much easier to defeat a one-dimensional opponent.

I'd be very sad to see Jay go, if for no other reason than we'd be mired in mediocrity for years to come. I really don't want that. His personal issues in the grand scheme of things are miniscule. I really hope they work out their differences.

Archer81
03-12-2009, 10:37 AM
This thread proves that Cutlers performance is based on the defense, the NFL is a TEAM sport! How will there EVER be a possibility of a SB win when our defense is ranked 30th? I guess he's supposed to score 30+ points a game and overcome our pissy defense to make you believe in his play??? You're pathetic


In 37 games, Jay has led the Broncos to wins 17 times. Thats all that matters. He has fantastic talent and a great upside, but this board is ready to crown him the 2nd coming and he isnt. His attitude and his maturity is lacking, and it effects his play.

:Broncos:

Beantown Bronco
03-12-2009, 10:37 AM
Good thing we live in a land of parsed numbers and stupid logic. Jay is 17-20. He has 0 playoff appearances. He can break every record in the world but none of it matters if there is never a possibility of a superbowl win.

:Broncos:

Jay = 17-20 over his first 37 games
Manning = 19-18 over his first 37 games

a whopping 2 game difference

Jay = 0 playoff wins in first 2 years
Manning - 0 playoff wins in first FIVE years....and he played terribly when they got there

Kaylore
03-12-2009, 10:40 AM
He had the coach he developed a relationship with fired without warning.
You miss the playoffs three years in a row and your team suffers one of the biggest late-season collapses in NFL history and it is not "without warning." He had to see the writing on the wall.
He had his QB coach fired without warning.
His QB coach elected to go to USC of his own accord. He wasn't fired.

Then they tried to trade HIM without warning,
Someone tried to trade FOR him and they listened. You're making this sound worse than it was.

I get your point that he is having issues with all the changes and doesn't know how to deal with the uncertainty, but it's not like Jay's never seen teams go through coaching changes before.

I do agree it will be almost impossible to try and find a QB of his caliber again, and would prefer he stay, but he has to want to be here.

boltaneer
03-12-2009, 10:47 AM
Spectacular post, good summarization all around. Cutler is a top 5 QB in the NFL, TODAY. He is 25 and has an ego. So What? Anyone who wants to give him away is a ****ing moron.

Here's a stat you won't like:

For all the love he gets for being a "top 5" quarterback (are you really saying this with a straight face?), here is Denver's rankings as a scoring offense:

2007: 21
2006: 16

This is an elite offense with an elite quarterback? I know he had running backs dropping like flies last year but he also had one of the best o-lines protecting him last year. He's gonna have to put up more points on the board and stop throwing so many INTs before he gets anywhere near a "top 5" ranking.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 10:51 AM
I get your point that he is having issues with all the changes and doesn't know how to deal with the uncertainty, but it's not like Jay's never seen teams go through coaching changes before.

I do agree it will be almost impossible to try and find a QB of his caliber again, and would prefer he stay, but he has to want to be here.

Good post.

To be fair about Bates, he was pretty much stripped of all his responsibilities and the guy wants to progress in his own career. I don't really fault anyone in that situation however. McD has a right to want HIS offense and HIS plays if he thinks he's capable of handling so many different responsibilities.

On the last point, I would prefer if people allowed him the opportunity of wanting to be here. Crybaby this and that all day, and maybe some of it's warranted, but it's probably just an issue of wanting the door left ajar.

labronx
03-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Popps is just like Manny being Manny.

Him and Appa have chased alot of posters off, or I might say, good posters.

Most of the intellectual posters saw this coming.

Shanahan has 15 million to finish his mansion.

Bowlen has a team is dissaray.

quoted for truth

OABB
03-12-2009, 11:16 AM
Here's a stat you won't like:

For all the love he gets for being a "top 5" quarterback (are you really saying this with a straight face?), here is Denver's rankings as a scoring offense:

2007: 21
2006: 16

This is an elite offense with an elite quarterback? I know he had running backs dropping like flies last year but he also had one of the best o-lines protecting him last year. He's gonna have to put up more points on the board and stop throwing so many INTs before he gets anywhere near a "top 5" ranking.

I can translate the mane for you:

Cutler is an elite athlete. a two year starter with a porous defense. he could easily be referred to as a top ten qb in the league right now...


so put those together, and we have a potential elite qb.

scttgrd
03-12-2009, 11:19 AM
Here's a stat you won't like:

For all the love he gets for being a "top 5" quarterback (are you really saying this with a straight face?), here is Denver's rankings as a scoring offense:

2007: 21
2006: 16

This is an elite offense with an elite quarterback? I know he had running backs dropping like flies last year but he also had one of the best o-lines protecting him last year. He's gonna have to put up more points on the board and stop throwing so many INTs before he gets anywhere near a "top 5" ranking.

And your boy Rivers with 2 RB's and a better defense had the same record as Cutler last year. So I guess he and Jay are one and the same.

BroncosinDC
03-12-2009, 11:33 AM
When I initially posted my numbers I was pretty certian I screwed up in reading them, and said so in the other thread, and am glad I did. I'm a fan of Jay's (he's on a list of about 3 people I wouldn't kill for dating my sisterr). Bottom line is I see some serioius potential in Jay that as a gambiling man it would be dumb to not bet on him.

Triplelefthook
03-12-2009, 11:41 AM
17-20.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense isnt absolutely pathetic (meaning 30 points or less a game allowed) - 14-7.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is half decent (meaning 22 points or less per game allowed) - 12-1.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is absolutely pathetic (30 or more ppg allowed) - 3-13

Point is the fact that he even needs defending is pathetic. Maybe some of you need to look at Montanas, or Elways, or Peyton Mannings, or Tom Bradys records when the defense takes a shlt. Maybe ill do it tomorrow when I have more time. Guys like Cutler dont come around every so often. Anyway, heard it on the radio today, as many of you have probably also have, and wanted to get it on here before the McDaniels fanboys quote that incredibly misleading overall record one more time to idiodically claim that Jay Cutler is Leaf/George. Probably the same ones who thought Reeves was the end all be all and Elway was also a spoiled little punk.

Bottom line is you give Jay even a middle of the road defense that gives up 300 points in a year and this team takes off. And that HAS been proven.


are you Sandy Clough? If not after he tells everyone the other QB's records today on the radio can you post that also?

he said yesterday that Plummer was 0-10, Brady 5-8, Eli 1-7 (i think) but basically that Cutler is in the upper echelon of QB records when the defense allows 30 or more points.

Cutler is the real deal. 75% of the league would love to have him at the helm.

I think both sides could have handled this better, but basically Bowlen came out right away and said that "Jay is the Man around here" and then the new regime comes in, Jay is excited about the new offense, then he hears that the organization may have been trying to trade him? I can't blame him at all for being pissed - he doesn't trust the new coach and doesn't feel that he/the organization is shooting straight with him.

I really don't see what Cutler has done wrong here at all - and in the end he WILL show up, and he will perform well he will have an excellent year next year and he will remain the broncos FRANCHISE Quarterback.

boltaneer
03-12-2009, 11:51 AM
And your boy Rivers with 2 RB's and a better defense had the same record as Cutler last year. So I guess he and Jay are one and the same.

LT was hurt for the majority of the year and despite the fact that LT at 60% is better than anyone on Denver's roster the two teams wound up with very similar rushing totals. And Rivers played behind a pedestrian offensive line.

The Chargers defense stunk last year until Rivera took over and even then it took 3-4 games before he started turning things around. By that time 75% of the season was over.

We can both make excuses or arguments for both sides but in the end, Rivers put up elite numbers last year and he led the 2nd highest scoring offense in the NFL. There is no comparing the two of them last year.

Beantown Bronco
03-12-2009, 12:00 PM
There is no comparing the two of them last year.

And yet that's all you've done over 3 or 4 posts in this thread alone...

scttgrd
03-12-2009, 12:01 PM
Rivers has had arguably the most talent in the NFL around him for the last 3 years, and still has not managed a superbowl appearance. The best team to never win anything.

Gort
03-12-2009, 12:09 PM
This thread proves that Cutlers performance is based on the defense, the NFL is a TEAM sport! How will there EVER be a possibility of a SB win when our defense is ranked 30th? I guess he's supposed to score 30+ points a game and overcome our pissy defense to make you believe in his play??? You're pathetic

baloney. you keep asserting that YOUR stats prove that everyone is wrong that disagrees with you. there's a big difference in asserting that and proving that. Cutler is not yet an elite QB. he's just as likely on any given drive to turn the ball over as he is to throw a TD pass.

Beantown Bronco
03-12-2009, 12:15 PM
baloney. you keep asserting that YOUR stats prove that everyone is wrong that disagrees with you. there's a big difference in asserting that and proving that. Cutler is not yet an elite QB. he's just as likely on any given drive to turn the ball over as he is to throw a TD pass.

How many QBs in the history of the NFL were universally regarded as "elite" after only 2 seasons?

boltaneer
03-12-2009, 12:15 PM
And yet that's all you've done over 3 or 4 posts in this thread alone...

Well, I didn't start the comparisons. I just had to put someone in their place, that's all. :)

I'll stop it though and won't sidetrack this thread any more.

I'll just sit back let you guys argue about it and continue to enjoy Baby Jay's™ meltdown as the days and weeks go by. :flower:

scttgrd
03-12-2009, 12:16 PM
baloney. you keep asserting that YOUR stats prove that everyone is wrong that disagrees with you. there's a big difference in asserting that and proving that. Cutler is not yet an elite QB. he's just as likely on any given drive to turn the ball over as he is to throw a TD pass.

So Cutler has as many touch downs as interceptions? Id like to see that stat if you can find us a link.

Gort
03-12-2009, 12:23 PM
How many QBs in the history of the NFL were universally regarded as "elite" after only 2 seasons?

fine. we agree. and that's why i am finding his behavior childish and those defending him to be misguided. their defense seems based on the idea that he's an elite QB, so he deserves better treatment than lesser players (i.e. a guarantee that the Broncos won't trade him).

Gort
03-12-2009, 12:24 PM
So Cutler has as many touch downs as interceptions? Id like to see that stat if you can find us a link.

scroll up. i showed it in a post. i said turnovers. turnovers = INTs + fumbles lost

Triplelefthook
03-12-2009, 12:44 PM
fine. we agree. and that's why i am finding his behavior childish and those defending him to be misguided. their defense seems based on the idea that he's an elite QB, so he deserves better treatment than lesser players (i.e. a guarantee that the Broncos won't trade him).

The organzation hasn't been straight with Cutler. Pat Bowlen came out and said "Jay Cutler is the man around here" and then the new regime comes in and Jay's name pops up in trade rumors. Then they deny it, then they say "we are not trading Jay period" then they tell Jay that no one is untradeable. What is Jay supposed to make of all this?

enjolras
03-12-2009, 12:48 PM
Would someone please point to the instance in which Peyton Manning threw a giant month long temper tantrum?

Triplelefthook
03-12-2009, 12:49 PM
Would someone please point to the instance in which Peyton Manning threw a giant month long temper tantrum?

i know he threw his whole offensive line under the bus after they lost to the Steelers.

scttgrd
03-12-2009, 12:55 PM
scroll up. i showed it in a post. i said turnovers. turnovers = INTs + fumbles lost

That still doesn't work, last year 25 TD's 18 INT's 2 fumbles lost. Hasn't happened in any of his three years.

Beantown Bronco
03-12-2009, 12:55 PM
Would someone please point to the instance in which Peyton Manning threw a giant month long temper tantrum?

Have you ever watched him play? The guy used to throw multiple fits during every game vs. the Pats in particular.

And this thing with Cutler really hasn't been going on very long at all. Everything was fine and dandy less than 2 weeks ago. He was showing up every day and going over the new playbook with McDaniels. The last two weeks may have FELT like a month, but it's not even close.

Merlin
03-12-2009, 01:37 PM
I did this in an elementry form with Elway and Cutler's defenses for their first 3 seasons and posted it.
And you did a piss poor job. At least bother looking up defensive stats that matter. If had bothered to do a little more work you would have found out Elway's D in points allowed was decent to good, Cutler's 3 yrs have been pathetic (even the yr he started because you have to do a split on the numbers since they stank in the last half).

Cutler has NEVER had a half decent D in points allowed, Elway did.

Merlin
03-12-2009, 01:43 PM
Brett Favre. There are more... and better QBs who have been traded, but there's your one example.
This is borderline moronic. Care to tell us what Favre's record was when he was traded? His stats? I thoughts so. Stop putting up straw men and argue in an honest fashion, otherwise you are just posting mindless drivel.

cutthemdown
03-12-2009, 01:46 PM
I tend to agree that if Cutler had a good defense Broncos would have been in playoffs. When I say he has to cut down on mistakes to be a winner I'm speaking more of winning it all. We have all seen how good teams are by the time you are deep in the playoffs. Up against teams like Pitt/Balt etc with really good defenses you won't win if you turn ball over.

I agree though Broncos scored enough to win 11-12 games a yr if the defense held teams to under 20 points like the good teams get.

My points about Jay have more to do with if he wants to reach the level that Manning reached and win Superbowls.

Plus let's not forget when Elway etc was just starting out things were much tougher for QBS. Dlineman could take 1 1/2 steps after the qb threw the ball. They could go helmet to helmet, in fact back then the crown of helmet to under the chin strap was something you saw a lot of. Dbacks could hold more and hit defenseless players. Hits outs of bounds were not always called if defender started at all in bounds.

Tons of things make it easier for Qbs today then 10-15 yrs ago. For that reason I think it's hard to say Cutler should be ok with 18 picks. He has all day to throw, no reason for that many bad passes.

Merlin
03-12-2009, 01:47 PM
Have you ever watched him play? The guy used to throw multiple fits during every game vs. the Pats in particular.
He threw his whole offencive line under the bus after a playoff loss. Manning has a history of being an ass under pressure, but I doubt people care about dealing with the facts. It is a lot more fun to make up stuff about the greatness of others and the present love-to-hate guy.

extralife
03-12-2009, 03:45 PM
I posted this in another thread a while back, but I figure it pretty relevant to this thread. Two sets of stats. The first, Peyton's stats through his first 37 games. The second, Jays:

Manning
9440 yards passing
19-18 record
63-50 TD-INT
1305 attempts, 59.9% completion, 3.9% int rate, 41 sacks

Cutler
9024 yards
17-20 record
54-37 TD-INT
1220 attempts, 62.5% completion, 3.0% int rate, 51 sacks

Basically, if you want him out or are attempting to argue he is not well on his way to being amongst the most untradable assets in sports, you need to find a new hobby.

Moon§hiner
03-12-2009, 05:55 PM
The only stat I ever look at as being significant in a game or season is the +/- turnover ratio. If the defense isn't helping you out, you can't be taking extra risks. The defense has sucked as of late and I felt Cutler came in feeling like he had to do something and took undue risks (maybe with Shanny whispering in his ear at the time). Not going to look it up, but I'd wager back when Elway was having his high turnovers that the defense was good enough to have more takeaways than we have seen for most of the last 8-10 years. Individual stats are for FF players, IMO.

extralife
03-12-2009, 06:04 PM
Well, the obvious counter to that is when your defense can't stop anyone it is up to the offense to win games. So you have to take chances. Especially if you don't have a consistent running game.

Moon§hiner
03-12-2009, 06:20 PM
Mistakes should be inexcusable on either side of the ball...I'm not making excuses for anyone. Just saying that's the only stat I look at and this team has been failing. If you want to take chances on offense, you better have a defense to back you up or end up with a record like we did.

Archer81
03-12-2009, 06:21 PM
All of this about something that didnt happen and someone else overreacted to...


:Broncos:

Inkana7
03-12-2009, 06:37 PM
good stuff ...

:rofl: Who cares how many yards were given up? One of the offense apologists' main points is that "the defense gave the offense bad field position!"

Yards = Field position.

DBroncos4life
03-12-2009, 07:59 PM
I like how people claim Manning does't act like a child at times. Have you ever seen him walk off the field complaining about the play call?

elsid13
03-12-2009, 08:23 PM
I tend to agree that if Cutler had a good defense Broncos would have been in playoffs. When I say he has to cut down on mistakes to be a winner I'm speaking more of winning it all. We have all seen how good teams are by the time you are deep in the playoffs. Up against teams like Pitt/Balt etc with really good defenses you won't win if you turn ball over.

I agree though Broncos scored enough to win 11-12 games a yr if the defense held teams to under 20 points like the good teams get.

My points about Jay have more to do with if he wants to reach the level that Manning reached and win Superbowls.

Plus let's not forget when Elway etc was just starting out things were much tougher for QBS. Dlineman could take 1 1/2 steps after the qb threw the ball. They could go helmet to helmet, in fact back then the crown of helmet to under the chin strap was something you saw a lot of. Dbacks could hold more and hit defenseless players. Hits outs of bounds were not always called if defender started at all in bounds.

Tons of things make it easier for Qbs today then 10-15 yrs ago. For that reason I think it's hard to say Cutler should be ok with 18 picks. He has all day to throw, no reason for that many bad passes.

First of all, I don't know were you get that he had all "day" to throw. The line was very good, but wasn't great. The lack of sacks comes from line giving a decent pocket to Cutler, Cutler quick release and his mobility. Remember the Jets game when the big throws came on Cutler feeling the pressure and rolling out and throwing on the run. (THAT WAY HE IS BETTER QB THEN CASSELL, that ability to make something happen when nothing there and D-line is breaking through the line)

Also how many picks were actually on Cutler and how many were on the WRs running the wrong route. I can think of 2 that Marshall made the wrong read and ran one route when Cutler was looking from him on the hot one. See Cleveland as example.

spdirty
03-12-2009, 08:26 PM
are you Sandy Clough? If not after he tells everyone the other QB's records today on the radio can you post that also?

he said yesterday that Plummer was 0-10, Brady 5-8, Eli 1-7 (i think) but basically that Cutler is in the upper echelon of QB records when the defense allows 30 or more points.

Cutler is the real deal. 75% of the league would love to have him at the helm.

I think both sides could have handled this better, but basically Bowlen came out right away and said that "Jay is the Man around here" and then the new regime comes in, Jay is excited about the new offense, then he hears that the organization may have been trying to trade him? I can't blame him at all for being pissed - he doesn't trust the new coach and doesn't feel that he/the organization is shooting straight with him.

I really don't see what Cutler has done wrong here at all - and in the end he WILL show up, and he will perform well he will have an excellent year next year and he will remain the broncos FRANCHISE Quarterback.

No Im not I just listened to him yesterday thought it was an excellent point and felt compelled to put it up on here.

If Cutler goes to another team, I cant think of any other move that would be a worse ****up in modern NFL history.

Id like to do the research on other HOF qbs records whose defense have given up 30+ points but I dont feel like it right now. Maybe tomorrow.

spdirty
03-12-2009, 08:46 PM
Mistakes should be inexcusable on either side of the ball...I'm not making excuses for anyone. Just saying that's the only stat I look at and this team has been failing. If you want to take chances on offense, you better have a defense to back you up or end up with a record like we did.

When you step on the field and every single time you have the ball you have a great deal of pressure to score a touchdown, because the defense cant stop anyone, you feel like you have to take more chances and mistakes happen. And that will happen with ANY quarterback.

Great example, Jake Plummer. His whole career he was labeled as a mistake prone QB who made bad decisions because he felt the kind of pressure Cutler feels right now. Yet in his 3rd year, Kubiak (and probably Shanny) were finally able to beat it into his thick skull that he did not have to take chances anymore. He had a winning team. A 3 and out was all of a sudden not a disaster because the defense was able to shut opponents down and the running game was very effective. And we then had the birth of "No Mistake Jake" who almost set an NFL record for most passes without a pick. Then when the defense gets exposed by Pittsburgh, Plummer starts forcing shlt and everything just goes to hell.

If you take that Jake and that offense and combine it with this defense Jake feels a lot more heat and we go maybe 6-10.

Jay never shoud be a game manager. He is a playmaker and if you combine last years offense with a healthy Peyton Hilis with that '05 defense you have a team that will definitely compete for a Super Bowl.

PaintballCLE
03-12-2009, 08:51 PM
17-20.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense isnt absolutely pathetic (meaning 30 points or less a game allowed) - 14-7.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is half decent (meaning 22 points or less per game allowed) - 12-1.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is absolutely pathetic (30 or more ppg allowed) - 3-13

Point is the fact that he even needs defending is pathetic. Maybe some of you need to look at Montanas, or Elways, or Peyton Mannings, or Tom Bradys records when the defense takes a shlt. Maybe ill do it tomorrow when I have more time. Guys like Cutler dont come around every so often. Anyway, heard it on the radio today, as many of you have probably also have, and wanted to get it on here before the McDaniels fanboys quote that incredibly misleading overall record one more time to idiodically claim that Jay Cutler is Leaf/George. Probably the same ones who thought Reeves was the end all be all and Elway was also a spoiled little punk.

Bottom line is you give Jay even a middle of the road defense that gives up 300 points in a year and this team takes off. And that HAS been proven.

LOL but how many of those "high point" games were cause by cutlers picks????? LOL

spdirty
03-12-2009, 08:54 PM
LOL but how many of those "high point" games were cause by cutlers picks????? LOL

And how many of the games they won were caused by the defense forcing a key turnover???

DBroncos4life
03-12-2009, 08:55 PM
And how many of the games they won were caused by the defense forcing a key turnover???

Didn't we cause like 5 turnovers all year so Im guessing -2 of those games.

mhgaffney
03-12-2009, 08:56 PM
The botom line is if they trade Cutler

and we lose this young developing QB

you can kiss the future of this team good bye

for the next umpteen years.

I said that.

spdirty
03-12-2009, 09:02 PM
Didn't we cause like 5 turnovers all year so Im guessing -2 of those games.

We almost broke the league record for fewest turnovers forced. I think we missed it by 1 turnover.

Bottom line, it was proven over and over that a punt was almost as bad as giving your opponent the ball on your own 20. He had to force shlt which caused the turnovers.

But dont tell the Cutler haters that or they will come back at you with the "cutler never proved anything, Cutler is a baby, Cutler aint ****."


You trade Cutler and every Broncos fan will regret it for the rest of their lives. And McDipshlt and the drunk will never live it down.

spdirty
03-12-2009, 09:05 PM
The botom line is if they trade Cutler

and we lose this young developing QB

you can kiss the future of this team good bye

for the next umpteen years.

I said that.

Please dude...quit scaring me by making sense.;D

azbroncfan
03-12-2009, 09:10 PM
I posted this in another thread a while back, but I figure it pretty relevant to this thread. Two sets of stats. The first, Peyton's stats through his first 37 games. The second, Jays:

Manning
9440 yards passing
19-18 record
63-50 TD-INT
1305 attempts, 59.9% completion, 3.9% int rate, 41 sacks

Cutler
9024 yards
17-20 record
54-37 TD-INT
1220 attempts, 62.5% completion, 3.0% int rate, 51 sacks

Basically, if you want him out or are attempting to argue he is not well on his way to being amongst the most untradable assets in sports, you need to find a new hobby.


Mannings stat's are pretty impressive considering he played well on a horrific team that was in a position to draft him #1 overall. He led the Colts to best record in AFC and a home playoff game in his second season. Stat's don't tell the whole story though as Jay has failed to get a win when one win would of wrapped up a playoff spot. 0-4 when a playoff berth is on the line.

theAPAOps5
03-12-2009, 09:16 PM
Please dude...quit scaring me by making sense.;D

when does that loon ever make sense....... think about it

BroncoMan4ever
03-12-2009, 10:06 PM
here's another interesting stat of note to all the people who bring up Jay has not won a playoff game and because of that isn't a franchise QB and is not a big deal if we trade him.

Elway didn't win a playoff game til his 4th season and he had far better defenses than Jay

Peyton Manning, the unquestioned top QB in the league didn't win a playoff game until his 6th season

2 of the best ever didn't win big games right away, and in both cases there was no chance in hell that their franchises would even think about trading them.

BroncoMan4ever
03-12-2009, 10:09 PM
Mannings stat's are pretty impressive considering he played well on a horrific team that was in a position to draft him #1 overall. He led the Colts to best record in AFC and a home playoff game in his second season. Stat's don't tell the whole story though as Jay has failed to get a win when one win would of wrapped up a playoff spot. 0-4 when a playoff berth is on the line.

is Jay the guy responsible for his defense giving up 30+ points a game. it can also be said had the defense not sucked 1 game early in the season last year, that we would have gone 9-7 and gotten to the playoffs.

wins and losses for the most part are a team stat, however, Jay is the only reason we didn't go 3-13 last year

Broncojef
03-12-2009, 10:12 PM
The botom line is if they trade Cutler

and we lose this young developing QB

you can kiss the future of this team good bye

for the next umpteen years.

I said that.

Good, maybe we can all man-up and take some pride in cheering for a team and Quarterback with some leadership skills and stop having to make excuses for the whiner. I'd rather cheer for an average team with guys that want to win and be Broncos than underachieving guys with tons of capability that need their ass kissed week to week to feel like wearing our logo.

azbroncfan
03-12-2009, 10:14 PM
is Jay the guy responsible for his defense giving up 30+ points a game. it can also be said had the defense not sucked 1 game early in the season last year, that we would have gone 9-7 and gotten to the playoffs.

wins and losses for the most part are a team stat, however, Jay is the only reason we didn't go 3-13 last year

Did he lead his team to one win in 4 games with a playoff birth on the line? Denver was favored quite a bit in both games? I seem to remember him creating a few TO's?

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 10:18 PM
Did he lead his team to one win in 4 games with a playoff birth on the line? Denver was favored quite a bit in both games? I seem to remember him creating a few TO's?

Now now now. Those turnovers by Cutler were not his fault. The sun got in his eyes, it was too hot/cold, Griese was in the stands. You know.

BroncoMan4ever
03-12-2009, 10:28 PM
Good, maybe we can all man-up and take some pride in cheering for a team and Quarterback with some leadership skills and stop having to make excuses for the whiner. I'd rather cheer for an average team with guys that want to win and be Broncos than underachieving guys with tons of capability that need their ass kissed week to week to feel like wearing our logo.

yeah that sounds great. we can be like the Chiefs. revolving door at QB, complete suckage every year, lurking message boards talking about how this is our year. or we can just move the **** on with Cutler and McDaniels.
and McDaniels and Jay can both get over their stubborn idiotic acts, and we can be competitive soon.


you are a truly idiotic so called fan for saying you would rather watch a suckass team for the next decade when if 2 guys could put their egos aside, we have the opportunity to be good with in a couple seasons.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 10:33 PM
we have the opportunity to be good with in a couple seasons.

Screw that, we have the chance to be really good this year if they just get over themselves.

The defense will be better just due to the leadership it will have this year.

scttgrd
03-12-2009, 10:33 PM
Some fans would rather be right than win.

bpc
03-12-2009, 10:41 PM
Thank god somebody posted this thread. PLEASE put end to this stupid W's/L's debate. Cutler's been getting the raw end of this deal since he took over for Plummer and Al Wilson suffered a career ending injury.

hambone13
03-12-2009, 11:24 PM
I'm still fairly stunned at all the angst at Jay. He had the coach he developed a relationship with fired without warning. He had his QB coach fired without warning. Then they tried to trade HIM without warning, because McD wanted to bask in the comfort zone of a QB that already is familiar with his system, in his headcoaching debut. I don't think for a minute that the coach thought that Jay was not a good a player. Or if he did, I'm frightened.

Could Jay have acted better? Yea, probably. More mature? Yea, but again, he is still a fairly young guy. He is acting a bit petulant, but even so, people blew his comments out of proportion. Then on the call, they act as if it was Jay's idea! I'd be PO'd as well.

I also DO like McD. I just wish both parties would shut up and fix their problems, and start building a better machine.

But acting as if Jay is a detriment is making me boggle. He IS a team player. He does not sulk like some QBs we've seen, after bad plays. He goes back out and ignores the previous screw ups. He is not a showboater. He IS a braggart to a degree. But he doesn't have a fraction of the issues many franchise players do.

There is NO WAY we'd get anyone for crap that will fill in and create success. We will be trash for YEARS if we get rid of Jay. People who say Jay is not 'very good' baffle me. What in the hell have you been watching? Manning when his defense is horrible is equally horrible. So was Elway! I saw an article in the Post today that gave those #s, and Elway and Manning both were 1-16 when their teams allowed the same amount of points as our horrible D has been allowing (may have been even more.. but the jist was clear, crappy defenses are very hard to overcome for any D). The only reason our own turnovers stood out so much, is because of our defenses inability to get any of their own. We were setting record low #s for turnovers last year. Asking a QB or an offense to score on every drive or NEVER turn the ball over, because you know your defense won't even it up, is ludicrous.

During the SB years, we actually had a mediocre D, but our offense was so potent, it did not matter. Robinson just had to blitz-blitz-blitz after we got up a couple scores early. It's much easier to defeat a one-dimensional opponent.

I'd be very sad to see Jay go, if for no other reason than we'd be mired in mediocrity for years to come. I really don't want that. His personal issues in the grand scheme of things are miniscule. I really hope they work out their differences.

I couldn't agree more with you and probably couldn't have said it any better. It's embarrassing to spend as much time as I do on this site with fans as solid as Popps, Appa in their passion for the organization just bashing Cutler to death and not recognizing how awful it will be to have to watch a mediocre QB ride the wave of a more well rounded team, should he leave.

It is a flat out rarity to find someone who is talented at what they do, not be cocky and arrogant about it when they're in they early to mid 20's. IMO, that doesn't make them a cancerous presence, it proves that their confidence and respect for themselves probably helped get them to where they are. Do they all grow up and find humility rapidly? Hell no.

I will never give up my passion for the Broncos but I for one, will enjoy watching Jay Cutler on whatever team he plays for. He's a blast to watch play. The things he can do are remarkable from an athletic perspective whether I think him to be a candidate for a God Parent to my children or not. (Frankly, I think based on his reactions of passion, he wouldn't even be a long shot if I knew him personally. I want my kids to have some fire and expect them to make mistakes in their early 20's. I'd much rather they be mistakes based on aggressively pursuing what they want.)

I sure hope we can cut him some slack as a fan base. A fan base that DEMANDS character while many of us show no character through lack of understanding and recognition of his own reality however "immature" it can be perceived to be. Being the national media is following the same lead, I'd rather see some team effort from the fan base to encourage a young, inexperienced head coach to take a look at himself as well. Is it really worth the power play to loose the opportunity to help someone with Jay's talent develop some character? I for one would find it incredibly endearing as a fan and a man to see McDaniels be the bigger person, even if he doesn't "have to". He could be showing Jay how to be the man he wants him to be through understanding his childish reaction, give some recognition and admit he had some control over how this situation came to be where it is.

BroncoMan4ever
03-12-2009, 11:39 PM
Screw that, we have the chance to be really good this year if they just get over themselves.

The defense will be better just due to the leadership it will have this year.

i agree. we got to 8-8 with a defense a high school JV team could shred, and no running game. if both of those areas are upgraded to mediocre even, we can be really good, as long as both of these idiots can put their egos aside and realize they will be better together than they will apart.

but with how the schedule looks as of now, and all the stuff that has gone on over the last month, i am being conservative and saying a couple seasons

Popps
03-13-2009, 01:02 AM
Wow. Brett Farve was a young Pro Bowl QB when he was traded. That is a very good comparison.


Look punchy, here's the question that was asked...

"I defy you to name a QB in the history of this league with Cutler's talent level that was traded at his age."

I named one. See anything in that question about the Pro Bowl? Jay Cutler didn't deserve the Pro Bowl this year, anyway. Rivers did. Even the blindest Broncos fan will tell you that.

So, he asked for an example, and I gave you one. Someone else mentioned Brees as a more recent example. Sure, he had an injury. Jay has an attitude.

So, he asked a question and I gave him an accurate answer. If you want to modify the question and then ask me again, perhaps we'll talk.


So you blame this on Cutler for dragging this out (whatever that means) because he didn’t make a public statement about staying in Denver? Wow.

Not exactly my point, but you're getting warmer.

Yes, I absolutely, positively 100% blame Cutler for dragging this out. Yes. Beyond any doubt, and if you listen to the litany of pros and insiders who are chiming in saying the same thing, ask yourself if maybe there's a reason?

**** it, I'll help you.

The reason is... Jay simply could have take the high road and ended this. Whether it was a screw-up by our staff or not, Jay made this 10X worse with his response. He created a lasting controversy when it simply could have been....

"I'm sorry to hear about this, but I'm going to go out and win wherever I'm playing this year..."

That's it. Drama over. Done deal. Jay looks like a true pro... increases his appeal to every possible interested party, and perhaps.... perhaps even makes our staff look to be in the wrong.... think about that one, sport?

Don't worry, Jay didn't either.

BroncoBuff
03-13-2009, 01:15 AM
Jay could have take the high road and said "I'm sorry to hear about this, but I'm going to go out and win wherever I'm playing this year..."
And John Elway could've taken the high road and said, "I'm sorry to see the Colts drafted me, but I'm going to Baltimore to go out and win this year..."

And Eli Manning could've taken the high road and said, "I'm sorry to see the Chargers drafted me, but I'm going to San Diego to go out and win this year..."

And those two QB baby snit-fits - both 100 times worse than Jay's - came before either took a single snap in the NFL. And both went on to SUper Bowls in their first four years.

So quarterback ego-bruisings are nothing new, and Jay's episode is mild compared to those guys. At least Jay has won a few games and broken a few records ... ???

BroncoMan4ever
03-13-2009, 01:16 AM
Look punchy, here's the question that was asked...

"I defy you to name a QB in the history of this league with Cutler's talent level that was traded at his age."

I named one. See anything in that question about the Pro Bowl? Jay Cutler didn't deserve the Pro Bowl this year, anyway. Rivers did. Even the blindest Broncos fan will tell you that.



ok. i agree, Rivers should have gone to the pro bowl ahead of Jay, but Jay still should have been there as the number 3. the only AFC QB named to the pro bowl that was not deserving was Favre. the roster at QB should have been Peyton, Rivers and then Cutler.

yes Rivers belonged ahead of Jay, but Jay still belonged there, and you're blind if you don't see that.

BroncoMan4ever
03-13-2009, 01:24 AM
Not exactly my point, but you're getting warmer.

Yes, I absolutely, positively 100% blame Cutler for dragging this out. Yes. Beyond any doubt, and if you listen to the litany of pros and insiders who are chiming in saying the same thing, ask yourself if maybe there's a reason?

**** it, I'll help you.

The reason is... Jay simply could have take the high road and ended this. Whether it was a screw-up by our staff or not, Jay made this 10X worse with his response. He created a lasting controversy when it simply could have been....

"I'm sorry to hear about this, but I'm going to go out and win wherever I'm playing this year..."

That's it. Drama over. Done deal. Jay looks like a true pro... increases his appeal to every possible interested party, and perhaps.... perhaps even makes our staff look to be in the wrong.... think about that one, sport?

Don't worry, Jay didn't either.

ok, you're right Jay could have handled this better, and could have just laughed it off or just dealt with it, like you said, and just told everyone he will kick ass this season no matter where he is.

but you for some reason only find fault in Jay's actions, when just as much criticism could be levied on McDaniels and the rest of the organization.

McDaniels is the one who could have squashed this from the 1st weekend, had he just come out and openly admitted, "Yes, I looked into trading Jay, but the deal fell through and Jay is here to stay." that would have ended the entire situation, but instead he chose to deny what everyone knew to be true, and dragged his feet for weeks before he attempted to get in touch with Jay. He could have admitted it to the press and fans, called Jay, explained he just felt it would be easier to build up the team faster with a QB who already knows his system, and that he has faith in Jay and is ready to get to work together. there would still be a little tension between the 2, but we would be passed this situation.

Both of these guys have ego problems, but so far Jay is the only one who has any merit to have an ego. He may not have MVP's, playoff appearances or anything like that, but on a team with nothing around him, he has risen the ranks of NFL QB's and placed himself amongst the top 5 in the league. McDaniels has done nothing more than get hired for his 1st HC job

Gort
03-13-2009, 02:25 AM
That still doesn't work, last year 25 TD's 18 INT's 2 fumbles lost. Hasn't happened in any of his three years.

i gave you the 3 year totals showing the totals for his career. and your totals for last year are wrong... he lost 5 fumbles. but if you insist on looking at each year individually, here you go...

2006: 5 INTs + 5 fumbles lost
2007: 14 INTs + 8 fumbles lost
2008: 18 INTs + 5 fumbles lost

2006: 9 TDs passing
2007: 20 TDs passing
2008: 25 TDs passing

i stand by my assertion that Cutler is just as likely to turn the ball over on any given drive as he is to throw a TD pass. that is a proven fact.

what that means is up to you. for Cutler nuthuggers, i guess that means he's a "playmaker".

for me, it tells me he hasn't matured as a QB yet and is still making (some) bad decisions on the field.

Gort
03-13-2009, 02:38 AM
The organzation hasn't been straight with Cutler. Pat Bowlen came out and said "Jay Cutler is the man around here" and then the new regime comes in and Jay's name pops up in trade rumors. Then they deny it, then they say "we are not trading Jay period" then they tell Jay that no one is untradeable. What is Jay supposed to make of all this?

why is he supposed to make anything of it. he's paid to play football. it's cut throat business. some day, sooner or later, he's going to be discussed in trade talks. it happens to everyone. if he didn't know this, then he's getting poor advice from those around him.

i used to work in silicon valley. i worked for some large tech companies. one company in particular had many different business units and was in an industry segment full of mergers and acquisitions. it was not uncommon to see whole business units sold off to competing firms. in fact, i can recall one business unit that i had to interact with that was sold off on a friday afternoon. the people who worked in that unit were valued employees, but they didn't have any right to know that discussions about their sale were going on at a high level. until a deal was reached and the sale was announced, none of them knew anything about it (maybe the head of the business unit knew, but such talks are so secret that people sign NDAs and such until a deal is complete, rather than risk it falling apart at the last minute). the next monday, most of them were greeted with the news that they would no longer be employees as of such-and-such date and that they would then be reporting to work for somebody else, if they chose to continue their employment. that's the way the world works. the NFL even more so.

until 2 weeks ago, i was happy to have Cutler as a franchise QB. right now, i'm thinking he doesn't have the maturity or agent to make that possible. even if he stays, i don't see the Broncos ponying up the kind of money his agent will want for the next contract, so if he's going to be gone in 2-3 years and we're rebuilding, i'd just as soon see him go now and get the maximum value back for him. he'll see the grass isn't always greener when he's playing in Detroit or Buffalo. ;)

hambone13
03-13-2009, 02:47 AM
i gave you the 3 year totals showing the totals for his career. and your totals for last year are wrong... he lost 5 fumbles. but if you insist on looking at each year individually, here you go...

2006: 5 INTs + 5 fumbles lost
2007: 14 INTs + 8 fumbles lost
2008: 18 INTs + 5 fumbles lost

2006: 9 TDs passing
2007: 20 TDs passing
2008: 25 TDs passing

i stand by my assertion that Cutler is just as likely to turn the ball over on any given drive as he is to throw a TD pass. that is a proven fact.

what that means is up to you. for Cutler nuthuggers, i guess that means he's a "playmaker".

for me, it tells me he hasn't matured as a QB yet and is still making (some) bad decisions on the field.

I want a link to these stats.....the "fumbles lost" #'s just don't seem accurate. Not because I'm a homer but because I think how you're using "some random data" which doesn't directly apply to Cutler or your arugment.......prove me wrong with some real verifiable data....I've watched every game he's ever played in the NFL and have a pretty solid memory. Maybe I'm off my rocker....I'm thinking those are "Team Fumbles Lost" and no reference to tipped/blocked or dropped passes......

extralife
03-13-2009, 03:26 AM
Anyone that is attempting to argue that we ought to trade Jay Cutler based on his talent level and/or on the field production is simply an idiot. If they would have suggested this a month ago (and they wouldn't have, because all they are actually doing right now is blindly taking one side over the other) they'd have been laughed off the board. I can't even believe we are having this discussion right now. If fans of other teams ever read this: I'm sorry. We're really not this stupid of a fan base. I promise.

hambone13
03-13-2009, 04:43 AM
Anyone that is attempting to argue that we ought to trade Jay Cutler based on his talent level and/or on the field production is simply an idiot. If they would have suggested this a month ago (and they wouldn't have, because all they are actually doing right now is blindly taking one side over the other) they'd have been laughed off the board. I can't even believe we are having this discussion right now. If fans of other teams ever read this: I'm sorry. We're really not this stupid of a fan base. I promise.

MMMMeeeeeeeeeNNNNNNN

Natedog24
03-13-2009, 04:44 AM
And John Elway could've taken the high road and said, "I'm sorry to see the Colts drafted me, but I'm going to Baltimore to go out and win this year..."


Yeah the whole John Elway/Baltimore fiasco that led to his trade to Denver really makes the Jay Cutler/Josh McDaniels Cold War pretty ironic. If Denver is forced to trade Cutler could this be karmic payback for our good fortunes when Elway demanded a trade out of Baltimore. The situations honestly aren't very similiar but the attitudes of either QB could both be perceived as equally immature and babyish at the given time...

broncofan7
03-13-2009, 07:25 AM
Look punchy, here's the question that was asked...

"I defy you to name a QB in the history of this league with Cutler's talent level that was traded at his age."

I named one. See anything in that question about the Pro Bowl? Jay Cutler didn't deserve the Pro Bowl this year, anyway. Rivers did. Even the blindest Broncos fan will tell you that.

So, he asked for an example, and I gave you one. Someone else mentioned Brees as a more recent example. Sure, he had an injury. Jay has an attitude.


Brett Favre? What a MORONIC and horribly INADEQUATE comparison

Here are Favre's stats from his ONE YEAR in ATL: 2games, 4 atts ZERO TD and 2 INTS

http://www.nfl.com/players/brettfavre/profile?id=FAV540222

He had done diddly POO--which is what your comparison amounts too.

And regarding Drew Brees--is Chris Simms our top 10 QB draft pick with a multi million dollar contract ala Phil Rivers???
Your comparisons are WOEFUL and borderline sociopathic that you would try and justify trading a 1st round QB heading into his 3rd full season as a STARTER who is coming off setting team passing records......Put him on those Elway defenses from 83-85 and we win the division last year and make the playoffs the year before...........

broncofan7
03-13-2009, 07:31 AM
Now now now. Those turnovers by Cutler were not his fault. The sun got in his eyes, it was too hot/cold, Griese was in the stands. You know.

How many points did we give up to BUF AT HOME?How many points did we give up to SD in the finale? Carolina was playing the best football in the NFC down the stretch and many had them favored to go to the SB form the NFC side.......

spdirty
03-13-2009, 07:45 AM
i gave you the 3 year totals showing the totals for his career. and your totals for last year are wrong... he lost 5 fumbles. but if you insist on looking at each year individually, here you go...

2006: 5 INTs + 5 fumbles lost
2007: 14 INTs + 8 fumbles lost
2008: 18 INTs + 5 fumbles lost

2006: 9 TDs passing
2007: 20 TDs passing
2008: 25 TDs passing

i stand by my assertion that Cutler is just as likely to turn the ball over on any given drive as he is to throw a TD pass. that is a proven fact.

what that means is up to you. for Cutler nuthuggers, i guess that means he's a "playmaker".

for me, it tells me he hasn't matured as a QB yet and is still making (some) bad decisions on the field.

Id just like to see those numbers after he gets a defense behind him.

broncofan7
03-13-2009, 08:05 AM
Id just like to see those numbers after he gets a defense behind him.

Exactly---l compare Jay's situation alot to Drew Brees--both Qb's play for teams with horrible defenses(our's being worse) and Drew has 4-5 more seasons of playing experience. Drew doesn't turn the ball over quite as much and I account for that with his status as a veteran QB. Jay is just entering that stage --and if you combine that with a mid range defense--those TO's WILL GO down as he will not be put into situations where he HAS TO throw the ball and teams are gearing to stop that. We would be beyond stupid to trade Jay and if it does come down to an either or between Jay and Josh, I'd insert Nolan as HC and get ride of McD in a heartbeat.

WolfpackGuy
03-13-2009, 08:57 AM
The Broncos would have 7 or 8 more losses to add to that total if not for Cutler.
You have to take that record crap with a grain of salt since the Denver defense in 2007 and 2008 has been truly horrible to put it mildly.

Gort
03-13-2009, 01:06 PM
I want a link to these stats.....the "fumbles lost" #'s just don't seem accurate. Not because I'm a homer but because I think how you're using "some random data" which doesn't directly apply to Cutler or your arugment.......prove me wrong with some real verifiable data....I've watched every game he's ever played in the NFL and have a pretty solid memory. Maybe I'm off my rocker....I'm thinking those are "Team Fumbles Lost" and no reference to tipped/blocked or dropped passes......

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CutlJa00.htm

you can see the full listing for the team here (e.g. Marshall had 4 lost fumbles):

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/den/2008.htm

Punisher
03-13-2009, 01:10 PM
17-20.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense isnt absolutely pathetic (meaning 30 points or less a game allowed) - 14-7.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is half decent (meaning 22 points or less per game allowed) - 12-1.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is absolutely pathetic (30 or more ppg allowed) - 3-13

Point is the fact that he even needs defending is pathetic. Maybe some of you need to look at Montanas, or Elways, or Peyton Mannings, or Tom Bradys records when the defense takes a shlt. Maybe ill do it tomorrow when I have more time. Guys like Cutler dont come around every so often. Anyway, heard it on the radio today, as many of you have probably also have, and wanted to get it on here before the McDaniels fanboys quote that incredibly misleading overall record one more time to idiodically claim that Jay Cutler is Leaf/George. Probably the same ones who thought Reeves was the end all be all and Elway was also a spoiled little punk.

Bottom line is you give Jay even a middle of the road defense that gives up 300 points in a year and this team takes off. And that HAS been proven.

LMAO our D suck so much dick it wasn't even funny,Cutler had to put up 30 or more to win 7 games then he made it to the Pro Bowl now hes in trade talks so disrespectful.... ::)

Rock Chalk
03-13-2009, 02:23 PM
Yards a game don't matter as much if you can stop them from scoring, though it's still bad - the total defense he was talking about was POINTS ALLOWED.

Lets look at the real Elway defense.

In 1983 we were 9th in points allowed
In 1984 we were 2nd (SECOND) in points allowed

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?offensiveStatisticCategory=null&archive=true&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=GAME_STATS&d-447263-o=1&conference=null&d-447263-s=TOTAL_POINTS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-n=1&season=1984&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1

Stare at it too if you don't believe

In 1985 we were 13th in points allowed. (Elway threw 23 int's this year)


Lets move to Cutler's defense shall we?

We were 8th (yep) in 2006 in points allowed - it should be noted that Jay didn't start that entire season.

Now we move to the Slowik Era (Slowik took over for Bates during 2007)

In 2007 we were 28th in points allowed

Cant get much worse can it??? mhmm

In 2008 we were 30th in points allowed


If you look at the guy's stats he's talking about points allowed not "yards." Who cares if you give up a ton of yards if the other team doesn't score. Also what I find AMAZING about the Broncos D during Elway is that Elway THREW MORE INTERCEPTIONS than Cutler and his D still managed to prevent a ton of scoring.

I mean holy crap... 13th in points allowed in a year Elway threw 23 (TWENTY THREE) interceptions.

If Cutler had that type of D, Shanahan would still be here and we would have made the playoffs in 06... and surely in 08.

Cut it anyway you want, Elway had a vastly superior defense WINNING games for him with their D when he was a young QB. Look at the amount of INT's Elway had in his first 3 years.

http://www.nfl.com/players/johnelway/profile?id=ELW276861

Hell look at his completion percentage. He was sacked under 30 times his first two years too, which isn't "horrific" by any means.

BAM!

Whats interesting to me about this is, yards apparently dont matter when it comes to defense but Cutler defenders keep saying we had the #2 offense in the league last year....thats true...in yards...which dont matter.

In points, where it matters, we were 16th in the league. The very definition of mediocre. Cutler was one of the worst QBs in the league last year in teh red zone, period. His fault? Some sure, not all. But the fact is, Denver wasnt very good anywhere last year except on offense, between the twenties in the first half. After that, we sucked.

TheReverend
03-13-2009, 02:50 PM
Whats interesting to me about this is, yards apparently dont matter when it comes to defense but Cutler defenders keep saying we had the #2 offense in the league last year....thats true...in yards...which dont matter.

In points, where it matters, we were 16th in the league. The very definition of mediocre. Cutler was one of the worst QBs in the league last year in teh red zone, period. His fault? Some sure, not all. But the fact is, Denver wasnt very good anywhere last year except on offense, between the twenties in the first half. After that, we sucked.

Well, only 6 QBs threw for more touchdowns... only 4 if you go by total TDs (including rushing), and every single one of them had gobs more defensive turnovers and short fields to work with.

So I'm gonna have to say, you're wrong...

UberBroncoMan
03-13-2009, 06:10 PM
Whats interesting to me about this is, yards apparently dont matter when it comes to defense but Cutler defenders keep saying we had the #2 offense in the league last year....thats true...in yards...which dont matter.

In points, where it matters, we were 16th in the league. The very definition of mediocre. Cutler was one of the worst QBs in the league last year in teh red zone, period. His fault? Some sure, not all. But the fact is, Denver wasnt very good anywhere last year except on offense, between the twenties in the first half. After that, we sucked.

Not hard to suck once you get to the Red-Zone when you HAVE TO PASS since you have completely no running game due to all the RB's on the IR. Teams expected pass and when you don't have a long field to your WR's to run exquisite routs, you're not going to score. Our complete lack of a running game is directly the reason our red-zone was so bad. I find it rather impressive that Jay did as good as he did constantly facing 7-8 people in coverage. Along this same principle... when you have 7-8 people in coverage in the Red-Zone it tightens the space you can throw too which leads to more incompletions and INT's. It's really quite clear why our Red-Zone sucked.

Remember that 5 game stretch where we won 4 games before our collapse... we had some semblance running game to go with young rookie defenders seeking to make an impact (Larsen, Woodyard, Barrett, Bell, etc).

frerottenextelway
03-13-2009, 06:25 PM
Whats interesting to me about this is, yards apparently dont matter when it comes to defense but Cutler defenders keep saying we had the #2 offense in the league last year....thats true...in yards...which dont matter.

Our ''scoring'' numbers were thrown off because the more possessions you get, and the better field position you start at, the more likely you are to score. That goes for every team ever. You absolutely know this to be true, yet pretend you don't, which is why you're a f'n coward and a liar.



In points, where it matters, we were 16th in the league. The very definition of mediocre. Cutler was one of the worst QBs in the league last year in teh red zone, period. His fault? Some sure, not all. But the fact is, Denver wasnt very good anywhere last year except on offense, between the twenties in the first half. After that, we sucked.

He has room for improvement.

But for the record, these were his stats in the redzone:

39 84 273 17 4

He also had 2 rushing touchdowns.

Those stats are not nearly good enough, but if it's your best argument to ditch him, then it's you that sucks, not him.

GreatBronco16
03-13-2009, 06:49 PM
How many points did we give up to BUF AT HOME?How many points did we give up to SD in the finale? Carolina was playing the best football in the NFC down the stretch and many had them favored to go to the SB form the NFC side.......

I'm at work so I really don't have the time to look this up, but I'm curious of the numbers.

Look up every game that Cutler threw an INT, or had a fumble or turnover on downs, and see how many points were scored off those turnovers. I'd like to see how many points were put up because of that.

azbroncfan
03-13-2009, 07:14 PM
How many points did we give up to BUF AT HOME?How many points did we give up to SD in the finale? Carolina was playing the best football in the NFC down the stretch and many had them favored to go to the SB form the NFC side.......

How many punts did the offense have? How many TO's? Against Buffalo did they get the TD in crunch time when big time offense's do?

frerottenextelway
03-13-2009, 07:22 PM
How many punts did the offense have? How many TO's?


Against Buffalo we had 0 punts and 2 turnovers (one by Cutler and one by Marshall).

watermock
03-13-2009, 08:17 PM
Did he lead his team to one win in 4 games with a playoff birth on the line? Denver was favored quite a bit in both games? I seem to remember him creating a few TO's?

Wrong. We lost on the road to Carolina, the laid an egg against Buffalo, which was a mut win. Then we lost against an energized SD tem, that FIRED their lame ass DC for Rivera.

We lost the TIEBREAKER because our D couldn't stop OAKLAND, and Bowe fumbled an onside kick when KC was up 14 with 2 minutes to play.

azbroncfan
03-13-2009, 08:20 PM
Against Buffalo we had 0 punts and 2 turnovers (one by Cutler and one by Marshall).
Problem is everyone is acting like Denver has a great Offense which they do between the 20's but they are very average. Although there were no punts against Buffalo the QB had two chances to tie and came up short both times in a must win favored game.

Here is the drive chart by the O against SD. Very unimpressive.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/drivechart?gameId=281228024

Archer81
03-13-2009, 10:20 PM
Problem is everyone is acting like Denver has a great Offense which they do between the 20's but they are very average. Although there were no punts against Buffalo the QB had two chances to tie and came up short both times in a must win favored game.

Here is the drive chart by the O against SD. Very unimpressive.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nfl/drivechart?gameId=281228024


No running game doomed us. Last time we won all season is when we had Hillis in the game. One blown hamstring and the course of history has been altered...

:Broncos:

azbroncfan
03-13-2009, 10:24 PM
No running game doomed us. Last time we won all season is when we had Hillis in the game. One blown hamstring and the course of history has been altered...

:Broncos:

Yeah I know that and I haven't been saying that Denver has this great offense either.

Archer81
03-13-2009, 10:28 PM
Yeah I know that and I haven't been saying that Denver has this great offense either.


They had a top 3 offense between the 20's. Once inside the 20s...not so much.


:Broncos:

azbroncfan
03-13-2009, 10:32 PM
They had a top 3 offense between the 20's. Once inside the 20s...not so much.


:Broncos:

Yeah one of the most overrated offenses in the league. I don't think anyone has pointed that out yet. :thumbs:

Archer81
03-13-2009, 10:35 PM
Yeah one of the most overrated offenses in the league. I don't think anyone has pointed that out yet. :thumbs:


Never understood why on 3rd and goal from the 2 inch line...Shanahan would pass the damn ball...how many games did we lose because we settled for 3?


:Broncos:

richpjr
03-14-2009, 12:30 AM
17-20.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense isnt absolutely pathetic (meaning 30 points or less a game allowed) - 14-7.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is half decent (meaning 22 points or less per game allowed) - 12-1.

Jay Cutlers record when the defense is absolutely pathetic (30 or more ppg allowed) - 3-13

Point is the fact that he even needs defending is pathetic. Maybe some of you need to look at Montanas, or Elways, or Peyton Mannings, or Tom Bradys records when the defense takes a shlt. Maybe ill do it tomorrow when I have more time. Guys like Cutler dont come around every so often. Anyway, heard it on the radio today, as many of you have probably also have, and wanted to get it on here before the McDaniels fanboys quote that incredibly misleading overall record one more time to idiodically claim that Jay Cutler is Leaf/George. Probably the same ones who thought Reeves was the end all be all and Elway was also a spoiled little punk.

Bottom line is you give Jay even a middle of the road defense that gives up 300 points in a year and this team takes off. And that HAS been proven.

Since people can use stats to "prove" just about anything, here is one:

Cutler's record when the Broncos score 19 or less points: 2-12.

azbroncfan
03-14-2009, 03:20 AM
Wrong. We lost on the road to Carolina, the laid an egg against Buffalo, which was a mut win. Then we lost against an energized SD tem, that FIRED their lame ass DC for Rivera.

We lost the TIEBREAKER because our D couldn't stop OAKLAND, and Bowe fumbled an onside kick when KC was up 14 with 2 minutes to play.

I'm talking in his career. You are forgetting the SF game from his first year. Now I know the exuses will be that was his first year or whatever. The bottomline is the kid is 0-4 in playoff clinching games no matter how you slice or spin it.

JJJ
03-14-2009, 03:54 AM
Cutler is clearly developing into a very good QB. You lose him and you will regret it. Its that simple.