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View Full Version : Don't forget: Josh McDaniels is still the greatest offensive mind in NFL history


bronco0608
03-11-2009, 11:40 PM
Out of all the offensive geniuses that have roamed the sidelines in NFL history, there is only one that can lay claim to greatest offensive output since the league's inception: Josh McDaniels.

For all the vitrol spewed toward this guys way, he is still an offensive genius, period. Sure, you can say that he had Tom Brady, but Tom Brady isn't the only great QB to ever grace an NFL sideline. What about Peyton Manning, Dan Fouts, John Elway, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Steve Young and whoever else you can come up with. Offensive coordinators had those talents yet could never put up 573 points like McDaniels did with the Patriots. And did the patriots even have a big time RB during that historic season? Nope. Makes that accomplishment even more incredible.

So let us not forget, we got the **** as our head coach. Coaches rack their brains with sleepless nights trying to figure a game plan that put up points. Right now, there is no one better in NFL history at confusing opposing teams defensive coordinators than Josh McDaniels --our head coach.

It's time to get excited. We are about to blow the league up. McDaniels can't be stopped. He is so good, he took a QB that hadn't started a game since high school and kept his offense going at a high rate.

This man is incredible. Don't forget.

Popps
03-11-2009, 11:41 PM
Nope.

He listened to offers to potentially improve our team.

He's trash.

lex
03-11-2009, 11:49 PM
Out of all the offensive geniuses that have roamed the sidelines in NFL history, there is only one that can lay claim to greatest offensive output since the league's inception: Josh McDaniels.

For all the vitrol spewed toward this guys way, he is still an offensive genius, period. Sure, you can say that he had Tom Brady, but Tom Brady isn't the only great QB to ever grace an NFL sideline. What about Peyton Manning, Dan Fouts, John Elway, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, Warren Moon, Steve Young and whoever else you can come up with. Offensive coordinators had those talents yet could never put up 573 points like McDaniels did with the Patriots. And did the patriots even have a big time RB during that historic season? Nope. Makes that accomplishment even more incredible.

So let us not forget, we got the **** as our head coach. Coaches rack their brains with sleepless nights trying to figure a game plan that put up points. Right now, there is no one better in NFL history at confusing opposing teams defensive coordinators than Josh McDaniels --our head coach.

It's time to get excited. We are about to blow the league up. McDaniels can't be stopped. He is so good, he took a QB that hadn't started a game since high school and kept his offense going at a high rate.

This man is incredible. Don't forget.

He fell in love with the pass and this was exploited by a team that could rush the passer. His offense was held to 17 points in the game that mattered most. For all the games that they beat Miami 55-7, it really became inconsequential when his offense's flaw was exposed. More important than beating Miami 55-3 in week 4, is cultivating a team that can win against teams like the Giants, Steelers, and Ravens in the playoffs and on the road even. The 2007 Patriots' offense wasnt even better than the 98 Broncos or 99 Rams. The 98 Broncos scored over 500 points as a run focused team and as a result had less clock to work with than pass happy teams like the NE Patriots. McDaniels isnt even better than the guy he's replacing.

bronco0608
03-11-2009, 11:54 PM
He fell in love with the pass and this was exploited by a team that could rush the passer. His offense was held to 17 points in the game that mattered most. For all the games that they beat Miami 55-7, it really became inconsequential when his offense's flaw was exposed. More important than beating Miami 55-3 in week 4, is cultivating a team that can win against teams like the Giants, Steelers, and Ravens in the playoffs and on the road even. The 2007 Patriots' offense wasnt even better than the 98 Broncos or 99 Rams. The 98 Broncos scored over 500 points as a run focused team and as a result had less clock to work with than pass happy teams like the NE Patriots. McDaniels isnt even better than the guy he's replacing.

Yawn. Seriously. He even led his team to an 18-0 record before losing by a touchdown in the Super Bowl.

You can nitpik all you want, but he has the record as the greatest offensive mind in NFL history. Kinda hard to nitpik the greatest, you know. :strong:

Just because a team can game plan you for one game and "hold you" to 24 points, doesn't mean you aren't the ****. The 98 Broncos lost 4 games with their incredible offense and the 99 team lost 2 games. Sometimes, **** happens.

I'll take McDaniels and his offensive genius over any coach in the league right now. Why? Because he is an offensive genius, of course! Greatest offensive mind in NFL HISTORY! Wow, and he is our head coach.

I am so stoked!

Archer81
03-11-2009, 11:56 PM
He fell in love with the pass and this was exploited by a team that could rush the passer. His offense was held to 17 points in the game that mattered most. For all the games that they beat Miami 55-7, it really became inconsequential when his offense's flaw was exposed. More important than beating Miami 55-3 in week 4, is cultivating a team that can win against teams like the Giants, Steelers, and Ravens in the playoffs and on the road even. The 2007 Patriots' offense wasnt even better than the 98 Broncos or 99 Rams. The 98 Broncos scored over 500 points as a run focused team and as a result had less clock to work with than pass happy teams like the NE Patriots. McDaniels isnt even better than the guy he's replacing.


Translation:

I have sand in my vag...


:Broncos:

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 11:57 PM
Nope.

He listened to offers to potentially improve our team.

He's trash.

It's pretty clear, to me at least, that he did more than just "listen."
.

watermock
03-11-2009, 11:57 PM
He fell in love with the pass and this was exploited by a team that could rush the passer. His offense was held to 17 points in the game that mattered most. For all the games that they beat Miami 55-7, it really became inconsequential when his offense's flaw was exposed. More important than beating Miami 55-3 in week 4, is cultivating a team that can win against teams like the Giants, Steelers, and Ravens in the playoffs and on the road even. The 2007 Patriots' offense wasnt even better than the 98 Broncos or 99 Rams. The 98 Broncos scored over 500 points as a run focused team and as a result had less clock to work with than pass happy teams like the NE Patriots. McDaniels isnt even better than the guy he's replacing.
__________________


QFT.

bronco0608
03-11-2009, 11:57 PM
And correct me if I'm wrong, more teams should be "pass happy" if that means you can put the greatest amount of points in league history. Makes sense, doesn't it? The offensive game is all about scoring, isn't it?

Looks like the pass happy offense works. Whatcha thinka?

lex
03-11-2009, 11:58 PM
Yawn. Seriously. He even led his team to an 18-0 record before losing by a touchdown in the Super Bowl.

You can nitpik all you want, but he has the record as the greatest offensive mind in NFL history. Kinda hard to nitpik the greatest, you know. :strong:

Just because a team can game plan you for one game and "hold you" to 24 points, doesn't mean you aren't the ****. The 98 Broncos lost 4 games with their incredible offense and the 99 team lost 2 games. Sometimes, **** happens.

I'll take McDaniels and his offensive genius over any coach in the league right now. Why? Because he is an offensive genius, of course! Greatest offensive mind in NFL HISTORY! Wow, and he is our head coach.

I am so stoked!

His offense was exposed in the big money game because he fell in love with the pass because beating teams like 1 and 15 teams like Miami 55-3 was too much fun. And in the end it was costly. But you keep blowing that horn.

DBroncos4life
03-11-2009, 11:59 PM
Yawn. Seriously. He even led his team to an 18-0 record before losing by a touchdown in the Super Bowl.

You can nitpik all you want, but he has the record as the greatest offensive mind in NFL history. Kinda hard to nitpik the greatest, you know. :strong:

Just because a team can game plan you for one game and "hold you" to 24 points, doesn't mean you aren't the ****. The 98 Broncos lost 4 games with their incredible offense and the 99 team lost 2 games. Sometimes, **** happens.

I'll take McDaniels and his offensive genius over any coach in the league right now. Why? Because he is an offensive genius, of course! Greatest offensive mind in NFL HISTORY! Wow, and he is our head coach.

I am so stoked!
OCs don't lead their team to **** and they don't get credit for anything. You can't sit here and tell me how much control he had or didn't have over that team, but I can tell you that it was BB team not McDs.

extralife
03-12-2009, 12:00 AM
They didn't win the Super Bowl. Mike Martz couldn't win the Super Bowl. Air Coryell couldn't win the Super Bowl. Dan Marino couldn't win the Super Bowl. Are you sensing a trend, here?

Even Peyton Manning will tell you the key to his offensive success lies in the play action and the stretch run.

spdirty
03-12-2009, 12:01 AM
He fell in love with the pass and this was exploited by a team that could rush the passer. His offense was held to 17 points in the game that mattered most. For all the games that they beat Miami 55-7, it really became inconsequential when his offense's flaw was exposed. More important than beating Miami 55-3 in week 4, is cultivating a team that can win against teams like the Giants, Steelers, and Ravens in the playoffs and on the road even. The 2007 Patriots' offense wasnt even better than the 98 Broncos or 99 Rams. The 98 Broncos scored over 500 points as a run focused team and as a result had less clock to work with than pass happy teams like the NE Patriots. McDaniels isnt even better than the guy he's replacing.

Oh, dont forget that the '98 team actually SAT THEIR STARTERS and went to a vanila offense when they were up big as well.

Popps
03-12-2009, 12:02 AM
OCs don't lead their team to **** and they don't get credit for anything. You can't sit here and tell me how much control he had or didn't have over that team, but I can tell you that it was BB team not McDs.

Great. Go ahead and tell us. Give us your inside information. Please include sources and potential contact info so we can check it out.

I mean, you speak it as fact, not opinion, so we'll all be interested to hear you back that statement up with a sizable amount of hard data.

Look forward to it...

extralife
03-12-2009, 12:04 AM
Popps, I'm sure you are enamored by the evidence in favor of McDaniels as secretly having complete control over those Pats, then? It has to work both ways, right?

bronco0608
03-12-2009, 12:06 AM
Popps, I'm sure you are enamored by the evidence in favor of McDaniels as secretly having complete control over those Pats, then? It has to work both ways, right?

Oh I forget! Bill Belichick is an offensive genius, not a defensive genius! Silly me, it was Bill calling all the offensive plays during that season. Just like Seifert did with Shanny back in 95. It was Seifert all along!

I'm so silly.

DBroncos4life
03-12-2009, 12:07 AM
Great. Go ahead and tell us. Give us your inside information. Please include sources and potential contact info so we can check it out.

I mean, you speak it as fact, not opinion, so we'll all be interested to hear you back that statement up with a sizable amount of hard data.

Look forward to it...

Yes I'm sure if the Pats won the SB they would have ran up and interview McD instead of the Head ****ing coach. You are going to sit there and tell me that McD made that ****ing team and not the HC and GM? How much power do you think this kid had in NE? Im sure he called the plays but that wasn't his damn team. I don't have to prove **** its logic that a OC doesn't have as much power as a HC.

DBroncos4life
03-12-2009, 12:10 AM
Oh I forget! Bill Belichick is an offensive genius, not a defensive genius! Silly me, it was Bill calling all the offensive plays during that season. Just like Seifert did with Shanny back in 95. It was Seifert all along!

I'm so silly.

Bill Belichick is a genius period. He controls that team not anyone else. Teams keep signing coaches from NE left and right and that team doesn't miss a beat. If you think it was McD that was the reason that team was good for all those years I don't know what to tell you then.

Popps
03-12-2009, 12:12 AM
Yes I'm sure if the Pats won the SB they would have ran up and interview McD instead of the Head ****ing coach. You are going to sit there and tell me that McD made that ****ing team and not the HC and GM? How much power do you think this kid had in NE? Im sure he called the plays but that wasn't his damn team. I don't have to prove **** its logic that a OC doesn't have as much power as a HC.

I didn't say he ran the team, but speculation among those who covered the team was that Bill B. basically turned the offense over to McDaniels a few years ago and he did more than just called plays. It's for those reasons that he was such a hot commodity in the first place.

Do you have inside information to counter that commonly reported story?

extralife
03-12-2009, 12:12 AM
Oh I forget! Bill Belichick is an offensive genius, not a defensive genius! Silly me, it was Bill calling all the offensive plays during that season. Just like Seifert did with Shanny back in 95. It was Seifert all along!

I'm so silly.

Bill Belichick has actually been quite involved with the Patriots offense over the years. After Weis left and before McDaniels got the job, the Pats didn't even employ an offensive coordinator. McD got his start as a defensive assistant under first Nick Saban and then Bill Belichick. You think BB had nothing to do with his rise as an offensive talent? Don't kid yourself. And hey, BB and Tom Brady have a great relationship. I guess McD never felt that was important. Might that be because he just sat back and called plays?

Besides, we've already went over how the jobs of coordinator and HC are, in many ways, not even related.

And, hell, we got rid of a guy that ran an offense that scored over 500 points and won a Super Bowl doing it. WE SO CRAZY

bronco0608
03-12-2009, 12:17 AM
Bill Belichick has actually been quite involved with the Patriots offense over the years. After Weis left and before McDaniels got the job, the Pats didn't even employ an offensive coordinator. McD got his start as a defensive assistant under first Nick Saban and then Bill Belichick. You think BB had nothing to do with his rise as an offensive talent? Don't kid yourself. And hey, BB and Tom Brady have a great relationship. I guess McD never felt that was important. Might that be because he just sat back and called plays?

Besides, we've already went over how the jobs of coordinator and HC are, in many ways, not even related.

And, hell, we got rid of a guy that ran an offense that scored over 500 points and won a Super Bowl doing it. WE SO CRAZY

Umm, if you haven't noticed, the NFL offensive game is all about freshness. While Shanny was hot 15 years ago, defensive coordinators caught up with him. They said, "give him all the yards he craves for, he can't score in the red zone." And what happened? Shanahan went from being unstoppable to being stoppable when it counted in a flash.

Eventually the league will catch up with McDaniels, of this there is no doubt, but that is going to be, oh, I don't know, a good five years from now. That's just the nature of the beast.

Keep McDee for five years and then ax him. I got no problem with that. By then, his offensive will be as stale and predictable as Shannys the past seven years.

DBroncos4life
03-12-2009, 12:18 AM
I didn't say he ran the team, but speculation among those who covered the team was that Bill B. basically turned the offense over to McDaniels a few years ago and he did more than just called plays. It's for those reasons that he was such a hot commodity in the first place.

Do you have inside information to counter that commonly reported story?

So McD brought in the players to fit the system right he offered them the contracts and all that jazz? He was incharge of drafts and finding the talent to fit the system right? Thats alot of ability for a OC when there was a true HC and GM above him.

He was a hot commodity just like any other young OC is in the NFL. Each year teams raid other teams coaching staff from teams that do well. All the hype in the world was on McD and the DC from the Giants. Why? Because they are well coached by the HC above them not because they are running the show over the HC.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 12:20 AM
And, hell, we got rid of a guy that ran an offense that scored over 500 points and won a Super Bowl doing it. WE SO CRAZY

How long ago was that? And has he come close to doing that since then?

lex
03-12-2009, 12:22 AM
Umm, if you haven't noticed, the NFL offensive game is all about freshness. While Shanny was hot 15 years ago, defensive coordinators caught up with him. They said, "give him all the yards he craves for, he can't score in the red zone." And what happened? Shanahan went from being unstoppable to being stoppable when it counted in a flash.

Eventually the league will catch up with McDaniels, of this there is no doubt, but that is going to be, oh, I don't know, a good five years from now. That's just the nature of the beast.

Keep McDee for five years and then ax him. I got no problem with that. By then, his offensive will be as stale and predictable as Shannys the past seven years.

What happened was personnel mistakes. His stuff still works but he didnt have the same quality of players that he had in the beginning. Its Sundquists fault and its Shanahans fault. The personnel decisions were so bad that Shanahan had to move players he had on offense to help the defense. He did this because he had the acumen to still make the offense work...for the most part.

extralife
03-12-2009, 12:22 AM
Talent may play a role in the whole "scoring 500 points" thing.

But, uhhh, lets not get sidetracked. My point was that's not exactly how I judge a head coach.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 12:22 AM
So McD brought in the players to fit the system right he offered them the contracts and all that jazz? He was incharge of drafts and finding the talent to fit the system right? Thats alot of ability for a OC when there was a true HC and GM above him.

He was a hot commodity just like any other young OC is in the NFL. Each year teams raid other teams coaching staff from teams that do well. All the hype in the world was on McD and the DC from the Giants. Why? Because they are well coached by the HC above them not because they are running the show over the HC.


So you're saying that come game days in NE, that BB gave McD the playsheets numbered 1 through 300, and told him to call every play in that order? McD had absolutly nothing to do with their offense other than calling the plays that BB had drew up all by himself?

I doubt it.

extralife
03-12-2009, 12:24 AM
I'm pretty sure he actually said calling plays and game planning were ALL that he did. And that isn't enough to crown his ass as the man responsible for the Patriots.

DBroncos4life
03-12-2009, 12:26 AM
So you're saying that come game days in NE, that BB gave McD the playsheets numbered 1 through 300, and told him to call every play in that order? McD had absolutly nothing to do with their offense other than calling the plays that BB had drew up all by himself?

I doubt it.

No but as pointed out before BB ran the team without a OC for a year or two when Weis left. What I am saying is Im sure Bill had his hand in things such as bringing in the talent for that team. I mean he did kind of draft Cassel and Brady. He signed Randy Moss not McD, he traded for Welker not McD. McD took the strength of the team and made plays around the talent that BB gave him not the other way around.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 12:27 AM
I'm pretty sure he actually said calling plays and game planning were ALL that he did. And that isn't enough to crown his ass as the man responsible for the Patriots.

Silly me, I thought this was about him being a great Offensive Cord. Not running the entire team.

extralife
03-12-2009, 12:28 AM
No, this is about the correlation between his team's ability to score points and his ability to be the Denver Bronco's head coach (and de facto GM).

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 12:29 AM
No but as pointed out before BB ran the team without a OC for a year or two when Weis left. What I am saying is Im sure Bill had his hand in things such as bringing in the talent for that team. I mean he did kind of draft Cassel and Brady. He signed Randy Moss not McD, he traded for Welker not McD. McD took the strenght of the team and made plays around the talent that BB gave him not the other way around.

Ofcourse BB made the calls on that stuff. But I'm pretty sure that McD was giving him some pretty good insight on certain players that he might had wanted or felt fit the system good. And I'd bet that BB probably drafted and signed a couple players that McD wanted.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 12:30 AM
No, this is about the correlation between his team's ability to score points and his ability to be the Denver Bronco's head coach (and de facto GM).

Look man, I'm at work doing the night shift thing. It takes me a few minutes to catch up sometimes.Ha!

DBroncos4life
03-12-2009, 12:34 AM
Ofcourse BB made the calls on that stuff. But I'm pretty sure that McD was giving him some pretty good insight on certain players that he might had wanted or felt fit the system good. And I'd bet that BB probably drafted and signed a couple players that McD wanted.

That maybe but I still don't get how people can say it was his team that scored so many points and broke those records. It will go down in history as BB team, cause it was his team. I know that McD had his part in it but we all know how BB is and I doubt he said here is the keys to my team kid Im going to got to the strip club and drink beer call me if you need anything. BB is a hard working HC that has his hands in everything involving that team.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 12:36 AM
That maybe but I still don't get how people can say it was his team that scored so many points and broke those records. It will go down in history as BB team, cause it was his team. I know that McD had his part in it but we all know how BB is and I doubt he said here is the keys to my team kid Im going to got to the strip club and drink beer call me if you need anything. BB is a hard working HC that has his hands in everything involving that team.

Well it wasn't his team, but he did run that offense. Atleast that was my take from the games I watched. But regardless, no it wasn't all McD.

Just like one player doesn't make a team good, the same can be said about coaches. It takes more than one coach.

Hulamau
03-12-2009, 12:41 AM
He fell in love with the pass and this was exploited by a team that could rush the passer. His offense was held to 17 points in the game that mattered most. For all the games that they beat Miami 55-7, it really became inconsequential when his offense's flaw was exposed. More important than beating Miami 55-3 in week 4, is cultivating a team that can win against teams like the Giants, Steelers, and Ravens in the playoffs and on the road even. The 2007 Patriots' offense wasnt even better than the 98 Broncos or 99 Rams. The 98 Broncos scored over 500 points as a run focused team and as a result had less clock to work with than pass happy teams like the NE Patriots. McDaniels isnt even better than the guy he's replacing.

Ny GBiants did have a perfect game paln f or NE in teh SB AND it only worked because Tom Brady was injured, efven more immobile and was a sitting duck for the Giants exceptional pass rush that day. And Healthy Brady and we arent even discussing the issue, Pass ruch or not.

Not to mention, the odds and strain of winning that 19th in a ROW was on top of the Patriots, no doubt a bit of overconfidence etc. Nevertheless, not only did he accomplish that, but this year he did something even more remarkable in transforming Cassel from a lifelong benchwarmer since high school to an 11-5 winner when the entire sysrtem depended so much on the QB!

We dont know how things will fair as a head coach, but I suspect he is worth giving a full opportunity to. And in this matter with Cutler, regardless if he could have handled the dipolomacy with a bitr more dexterity or not, the whole issue is now Cutlers to screw up or make right.

SO far Cutler has given Josh nothing but more reasons to lose confidence in his QB and look for plan B.

Cutler is being shortsighted and self-aborbed to date and is acting anything but like a team leader.

WolfpackGuy
03-12-2009, 07:56 AM
They ran up the score several times in 2007, so you have to wonder how many points and yards were put up in garbage time.
The Pats had no balance and it showed in the Super Bowl against the Giants.
By the way, the Broncos offense of 1998 could've scored WAY MORE than 501 points. Anybody remember the times TD would get his 100 by the half and take the rest of the day off?

halfcreek
03-12-2009, 08:00 AM
It's pretty clear, to me at least, that he did more than just "listen."
.

And this clarity comes from.......? Besides "sources" and soap opera media people, to say nothing about the ultimate fountain, the Bus.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 08:02 AM
Brady wouldn't have his record if Peyton had played week 17 his record breaking year. And the Pats wouldn't have the record if they didn't run the score up on everyone. Not complaining. I don't think it's wrong. But it IS what happened.

lex
03-12-2009, 08:27 AM
They ran up the score several times in 2007, so you have to wonder how many points and yards were put up in garbage time.
The Pats had no balance and it showed in the Super Bowl against the Giants.
By the way, the Broncos offense of 1998 could've scored WAY MORE than 501 points. Anybody remember the times TD would get his 100 by the half and take the rest of the day off?

He missed the equivalent of 2 games. I think I heard that the 98 team outscored their opponents 144 to 44 in the first quarter...or something like that.

lex
03-12-2009, 08:33 AM
Ny GBiants did have a perfect game paln f or NE in teh SB AND it only worked because Tom Brady was injured, efven more immobile and was a sitting duck for the Giants exceptional pass rush that day. And Healthy Brady and we arent even discussing the issue, Pass ruch or not.

Not to mention, the odds and strain of winning that 19th in a ROW was on top of the Patriots, no doubt a bit of overconfidence etc. Nevertheless, not only did he accomplish that, but this year he did something even more remarkable in transforming Cassel from a lifelong benchwarmer since high school to an 11-5 winner when the entire sysrtem depended so much on the QB!

We dont know how things will fair as a head coach, but I suspect he is worth giving a full opportunity to. And in this matter with Cutler, regardless if he could have handled the dipolomacy with a bitr more dexterity or not, the whole issue is now Cutlers to screw up or make right.

SO far Cutler has given Josh nothing but more reasons to lose confidence in his QB and look for plan B.

Cutler is being shortsighted and self-aborbed to date and is acting anything but like a team leader.

Nice try. Its not like Brady was mobile regardless. The game was decided by NE being one dimensional and the Giants being able to pin their ears back because of it. And even if Bradys ankle was a factor, that just accentuates the flaws of McDaniels game planning...both for the season (in not cultivating a running game more) and for that specific game. If you believe the ankle injury was a factor, that just further accentuates the need to run the ball more.

The Joker
03-12-2009, 08:39 AM
I think some credit needs to be given to just how good the Giants defensive line and entire defense was that day.

It wasn't like the Pats **** the bed against an average team when it mattered most, they were on the receiving end of one of the all time great defensive performances ever seen in the Superbowl.

The AFC Championship game against San Diego they ran the ball excellently when the wind made the regular game plan impossible. That Charger D was no joke either btw, so the assertion they were completely one dimensional as an offense in general is laughable.

Garcia Bronco
03-12-2009, 08:52 AM
Out of all the offensive geniuses that have roamed the sidelines in NFL history, there is only one that can lay claim to greatest offensive output since the league's inception: Josh McDaniels*.


*With a video camera

lex
03-12-2009, 08:53 AM
I think some credit needs to be given to just how good the Giants defensive line and entire defense was that day.

It wasn't like the Pats **** the bed against an average team when it mattered most, they were on the receiving end of one of the all time great defensive performances ever seen in the Superbowl.

The AFC Championship game against San Diego they ran the ball excellently when the wind made the regular game plan impossible. That Charger D was no joke either btw, so the assertion they were completely one dimensional as an offense in general is laughable.

Yeah, ok, they had a great defensive line. And the person who should have been foremost in recognizing that was the guy who fell in love with the pass. Heres an example. In 1998, Terrell Davis had 2008 yards playing in the equivalent of 14 games. They had an all time great running game. Bowlen and Shanahan knew Atlanta would focus on stopping the run. So what did they do? They torched them with the pass early. Terrell still had 100 yards in that game but the Broncos killed Atlanta with the pass. Meanwhile in 2007, you have a NE team that scored a boatload of points by falling in love with the pass and running up the score. OK, fine. But in the big money game, did McDaniels recognize the necessity and/or opportunity to run the ball? No. And they only scored a paltry 17 points because they let the Giants defensive line pin their ears back. Dumb.

no-pseudo-fan
03-12-2009, 08:53 AM
I am not a huge McD guy, but give the guy a break with that whole Super Bowl loss. Shanny screwed us in that Jax playoff game, remember. It is all about experience. McD is balls to the wall on offense. He finds a teams weakness and pokes at it the whole game. Like slapping a blind kid. He attacks you where you are weakest, and then if and when you try to compensate for it, it opens something else. Shanny lost his edge towards the end, and you could see it once Kube left. McD is going to be alright, but he does need to fix this Jay Cutler situation that he created.

Garcia Bronco
03-12-2009, 08:54 AM
I think some credit needs to be given to just how good the Giants defensive line and entire defense was that day.

It wasn't like the Pats **** the bed against an average team when it mattered most, they were on the receiving end of one of the all time great defensive performances ever seen in the Superbowl.

The AFC Championship game against San Diego they ran the ball excellently when the wind made the regular game plan impossible. That Charger D was no joke either btw, so the assertion they were completely one dimensional as an offense in general is laughable.

They couldn't run the ball at all.

RaiderH8r
03-12-2009, 08:56 AM
If McHelmet were such an offensive genius then he would recognize that Cutler is leagues, orders of magnitude, better than Cassell and wouldn't have entertained the notion of the trade that was being bandied about. But no, this was about Coach Linus McHelmet needing his binky and pacifier.

no-pseudo-fan
03-12-2009, 08:58 AM
Yeah, ok, they had a great defensive line. And the person who should have been foremost in recognizing that was the guy who fell in love with the pass. Heres an example. In 1998, Terrell Davis had 2008 yards playing in the equivalent of 14 games. They had an all time great running game. Bowlen and Shanahan knew Atlanta would focus on stopping the run. So what did they do? They torched them with the pass early. Terrell still had 100 yards in that game but the Broncos killed Atlanta with the pass. Meanwhile in 2007, you have a NE team that scored a boatload of points by falling in love with the pass and running up the score. OK, fine. But in the big money game, did McDaniels recognize the necessity and/or opportunity to run the ball? No. And they only scored a paltry 17 points because they let the Giants defensive line pin their ears back. Dumb.

You fail to realize how much gameplans come into the picture. Denver has gotten beaten by lesser teams because of bad gameplans, but we have also beaten better teams because of superior gameplans. Games are not played on paper, there are a lot of things that are going on during any given sunday. Did the Patriots choke, yes? Was is all McD's fault? NO. Did he learn from his mistakes? We will see.

lex
03-12-2009, 09:00 AM
I am not a huge McD guy, but give the guy a break with that whole Super Bowl loss. Shanny screwed us in that Jax playoff game, remember. It is all about experience. McD is balls to the wall on offense. He finds a teams weakness and pokes at it the whole game. Like slapping a blind kid. He attacks you where you are weakest, and then if and when you try to compensate for it, it opens something else. Shanny lost his edge towards the end, and you could see it once Kube left. McD is going to be alright, but he does need to fix this Jay Cutler situation that he created.

Except no one is saying the 1996 offense was the best offense ever? You want to bring up the 1996 loss to Jax fine. Then you also invite bringing up the 1994 Niners offense that was a juggernaut and actually delivered in the big game(s). You can also point to the 1997 and 1998 Denver offenses that delivered in the big game(s). Youre taking one upset and weighing it against 3 years of juggernaut offenses that won SBs because of it. I dont think Shanahan lost his edge as much as the offense went from eroding/old (it had also been thinned by transactions aimed to help the defense) to talented but young.

And regarding what you said about gameplans. They gameplanned Jake to death. They got everything they could out of that guy with his limitations. It was amazing to watch the bootleg rollout work as long as it did. Kubiak left at around the time the team started transitioning from old to young. If the Goodmans would have entered the picture a year sooner, maybe the transition would have been smoother. I also think that some of our shortcomings have been partly having offensive linemen that were too small and were getting ragdolled. That, again, was a personnel issue and not a gameplanning one.

But anyway, getting back to McDaniels. Its good to see you admit he **** the bed as a gameplanner. It kind of dispells the notion that he was the greatest offensive mind ever.

The Joker
03-12-2009, 09:07 AM
They couldn't run the ball at all.

Nobody could against that Giants team in January though.

In the playoff game against Dallas, Barber had 72 yards on 5 carries in one series at the end of the 1st quarter.

Aside from that, nobody did anything running the ball against NY in their entire playoff run.

Garcia Bronco
03-12-2009, 09:08 AM
Nobody could against that Giants team in January though.

In the playoff game against Dallas, Barber had 72 yards on 5 carries in one series at the end of the 1st quarter.

Aside from that, nobody did anything running the ball against NY in their entire playoff run.

It wasn't just against the Giants. The didn't run the ball very much at all.

~Crash~
03-12-2009, 09:08 AM
Then they put an end to hand signal and NE became average....:giggle: :thumbs:

The Joker
03-12-2009, 09:24 AM
It wasn't just against the Giants. The didn't run the ball very much at all.

Playoff game 1, versus Jacksonville.

28 pass attempts, 29 rushing attempts - 145 yards rushing, or exactly 5 yards per carry.

Playoff game 2, versus San Diego.

33 passing attempts, 31 rushing attempts. - 149 yards rushing, ever so marginally less than 5 yards per carry.

Bear in mind that Brady had 4 carries over the course of those 2 games, for a grand total of -1 yard.

So running the ball in the playoffs they averaged over 5 yards a carry on designed run plays until they encountered New York, where like everyone else they couldn't run because of the amazing defensive line.

lex
03-12-2009, 09:28 AM
Playoff game 1, versus Jacksonville.

28 pass attempts, 29 rushing attempts - 145 yards rushing, or exactly 5 yards per carry.

Playoff game 2, versus San Diego.

33 passing attempts, 31 rushing attempts. - 149 yards rushing, ever so marginally less than 5 yards per carry.

Bear in mind that Brady had 4 carries over the course of those 2 games, for a grand total of -1 yard.

So running the ball in the playoffs they averaged over 5 yards a carry on designed run plays until they encountered New York, where like everyone else they couldn't run because of the amazing defensive line.

The running game typically pays dividends as the game goes on. And they still needed to run just to keep the Giants from teeing off on Brady, if nothing else.

TonyR
03-12-2009, 09:39 AM
So running the ball in the playoffs they averaged over 5 yards a carry on designed run plays until they encountered New York, where like everyone else they couldn't run because of the amazing defensive line.

Stop bringing facts into the argument!

Another very overlooked factor that hurt the Pats, only briefly mentioned thus far in the discussion, is that Tom Brady was hurting. The Pats are very quiet about such things so we'll never know the full story but he clearly had an ankle and/or knee really bothering him. He wasn't himself in the playoffs, missing many throws he normally makes. He played really poorly against SD and still wasn't right against the NYG.

Northman
03-12-2009, 09:52 AM
And correct me if I'm wrong, more teams should be "pass happy" if that means you can put the greatest amount of points in league history. Makes sense, doesn't it? The offensive game is all about scoring, isn't it?

Looks like the pass happy offense works. Whatcha thinka?


We shall see, lord knows he isnt in Kansas anymore.

lex
03-12-2009, 09:59 AM
Stop bringing facts into the argument!

Another very overlooked factor that hurt the Pats, only briefly mentioned thus far in the discussion, is that Tom Brady was hurting. The Pats are very quiet about such things so we'll never know the full story but he clearly had an ankle and/or knee really bothering him. He wasn't himself in the playoffs, missing many throws he normally makes. He played really poorly against SD and still wasn't right against the NYG.

No, that was squarely addressed. If Brady's ankle was hurting that much, then thats an indictment of McDaniels' gameplanning.

Br0nc0Buster
03-12-2009, 10:07 AM
No, that was squarely addressed. If Brady's ankle was hurting that much, then thats an indictment of McDaniels' gameplanning.

Are you serious?
So dips in performance that are a result from injury are an indictment on the coordinators.....gotcha

USMCBladerunner
03-12-2009, 10:08 AM
eeeeevvvvvaaaaarrrrrrrr!!!!!!

Jason in LA
03-12-2009, 10:31 AM
Brian Billick kills this argument. When he was with the OC for the Vikings in '98 they set the record for most points scored. Funny thing, he also had Randy Moss. Anyways, he goes to the Ravens and they sucked on offense every single year. The one year they won it all, they had one of the greatest defenses ever.

2KBack
03-12-2009, 10:51 AM
He fell in love with the pass and this was exploited by a team that could rush the passer. His offense was held to 17 points in the game that mattered most. For all the games that they beat Miami 55-7, it really became inconsequential when his offense's flaw was exposed. More important than beating Miami 55-3 in week 4, is cultivating a team that can win against teams like the Giants, Steelers, and Ravens in the playoffs and on the road even. The 2007 Patriots' offense wasnt even better than the 98 Broncos or 99 Rams. The 98 Broncos scored over 500 points as a run focused team and as a result had less clock to work with than pass happy teams like the NE Patriots. McDaniels isnt even better than the guy he's replacing.

Pass happy my ass, The 2007 patriots had about 70 fewer rushing attempts than the 1998 Broncos. That's about 4 carries per game. Denver was more effective with the run, hence them being so run heavy. Patriots were more effective with the pass, so they were more pass heavy. The patriots still tried to run almost as much.

lex
03-12-2009, 11:11 AM
Are you serious?
So dips in performance that are a result from injury are an indictment on the coordinators.....gotcha


If you have a player who is sufficiently injured to the extent that its going to cut your production in half, it might make sense to plan around and take the heat off of Brady. But, Im not sure the injury is that valid of an excuse considering Marino spent an entire career being less mobile than Brady was mit injury. I think the greater sin was not recognizing the Giants defensive line's pass rush as being the strength of their team. But both that and the injury are sufficient reasons to gameplan so that Brady isnt a tackling dummy.

Mogulseeker
03-12-2009, 11:34 AM
I'm a little out of the loop these days, so I'll ask anyway... is this thread a joke? Honestly ... Like, is bronco0608 being sarcastic?

Because to say that a guy who took over an already good offense and kept it good, and hasn't coached one game as a head coach, is the greatest offensive mind if NFL history is ludicrous.