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View Full Version : Would Detroit give their #1 for Cutler?


Popps
03-11-2009, 07:36 PM
Purely out of curiosity. Again, I'm hoping he stays... but I just ran into a Detroit fan here at work. He said to me in the hall.... "Cutler and your #12 for the #1."

I laughed, then thought about it... would Detroit trade us straight across?

He says no. Of course, fans always overvalue their players and draft picks, but I wonder what the real value was.

I asked him why he thought Cutler wasn't worth the #1 after coming off of a Pro Bowl and he said "it looks like you have a malcontent on your hands."


What do you think? What's Cutler worth at this point... in reality, not homer-land... reality?

Requiem
03-11-2009, 07:37 PM
If they would even consider drafting Stafford at #1, I'd sure as hell think they'd trade the #1 overall for a 25 year old Pro Bowl quarterback who knows what the league is about. . . even despite his silly**** behavior.

TonyR
03-11-2009, 07:38 PM
I wouldn't trade him for the first pick in the draft straight up. Curry can't play QB for us and we don't really have an alternative at the most important position on the field.

TheReverend
03-11-2009, 07:39 PM
Purely out of curiosity. Again, I'm hoping he stays... but I just ran into a Detroit fan here at work.

Don't you have a legal obligation to report the EPA about finding an endangered species in the wild?

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 07:39 PM
Cutler for the #1?

Pass.

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 07:40 PM
Cutler for the #1 and #20?

Lemme think about it.

bpc
03-11-2009, 07:40 PM
IMO, Cutler is worth more than Stafford who they are considering at a overbloated price with the #1 pick. Jay is about as proven a product as you can have after 37 games, all things consider. If Detroit takes him, they basically skip the learning curve process in developing a QB and get a guy that instantly makes their offense dramatically better especially when considering that he'll be paired up with a top notch WR in Calvin Johnson and good young HB in Kevin Smith.

Detroit also still has a 1st round pick to fall back on in this scenario as well. It would make a lot of sense IMO.

TonyR
03-11-2009, 07:40 PM
If they would even consider drafting Stafford at #1, I'd sure as hell think they'd trade the #1 overall for a 25 year old Pro Bowl quarterback who knows what the league is about. . . even despite his silly**** behavior.

I agree, I think any team in need of a QB would be willing to give up their #1 and more for Jay. He's a better risk than any of the QB's in this year's draft.

Popps
03-11-2009, 07:41 PM
Don't you have a legal obligation to report the EPA about finding an endangered species in the wild?

:spit:

Even funnier, my floor only has about 50 employees or so, and TWO of them are MAJOR Lions fans.... TWO!!!

They're both actually really great fans, actually. You have to be damned loyal to be a Lions fan.

Other than that, three major Cowboys fans.... and me.

bpc
03-11-2009, 07:41 PM
At this point, i would take the #1 pick. I'm resigned to the fact that Jay most likely will not be in Denver much longer. We might as well get value for him. #1 pick sounds fine to me. Too bad Bowlen might not have the cash to pony up for that selection.

Popps
03-11-2009, 07:42 PM
Cutler for the #1 and #20?

Lemme think about it.

No way in hell. Cutler has done too much damage, imo. His actions have emboldened teams to lower their offers, imo. He's single-handedly given other teams leverage to offer LESS for him.

Popps
03-11-2009, 07:43 PM
At this point, i would take the #1 pick. I'm resigned to the fact that Jay most likely will not be in Denver much longer. We might as well get value for him. #1 pick sounds fine to me. Too bad Bowlen might not have the cash to pony up for that selection.

I wouldn't want the #1 this year... but the #20 and a #1 next year becomes more interesting. That's if we HAVE to trade him.

I still think this all gets worked out.

Popps
03-11-2009, 07:44 PM
I'm going to ask the other Lion's fan if he'd take Cutler for the #1 on my way out...

TonyR
03-11-2009, 07:45 PM
At this point, i would take the #1 pick.

Then who plays QB this season? You just can't make a deal like this no matter how down on Jay you are.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 07:47 PM
As opposed to drafting Stafford or Sanchez, yes. Cutler is proven (whether you think he is great or mediocre, at least you know) and doesn't have the contract that #1 overall would ask for. Look at the guaranteed money Long got last year.

I think Detroit would say yes. I think they'd say yes to the #1 and another pick/player.

Two weeks ago as a Bronco fan I'd have said no. Now... I'm not sure.... Not because of Cutler per se, but the way things have transpired...

Bronco Yoda
03-11-2009, 07:48 PM
The Lions would be foolish not to float that offer.

I sure hope it doesn't come down to us having to take such an offer now.

Come on Cutler, pull your head out and be the leader we all want you to be.

bombay
03-11-2009, 07:50 PM
Signing that number 1 would cost about what Washington guaranteed Haynesworth.

No.

bpc
03-11-2009, 07:51 PM
Then who plays QB this season? You just can't make a deal like this no matter how down on Jay you are.

Who's down on Jay? I'm pro Jay in all of this. I think he's gonna be a great QB. I just don't see this fractured relationship between McFuggit and Jay being repaired. Personally, i think Bowlen needs to make a choice.

Simms has starting experience. We could probably pick up another vet for competition on the market. I could see us jumping into the market for a QB in the first couple rounds if Cutler gets moved.

tonngo0
03-11-2009, 07:52 PM
If the Broncos (bone head and all) trade Jay, the Broncos will be 4-12 this coming season, and 6-10 the next, 7-9 and Bowlen will look for another coach.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 07:57 PM
I hope Cutler shows up on Monday and all this fades away.

I think it is more than coin flip now that Cutler DOES get moved. I think that happens and Sparky is the assistant special teams coach for Southeast Alaska Tech in three years. And Cutler continues a promising career elsewhere.

Also, Matt Cassel will be bagging groceries in three years. But that wasn't the point of the thread.

:)

Broncojef
03-11-2009, 07:59 PM
I'm not sure I'd want to pay all that $$$ to the number one overall. I think I'd rather have the #20 (from Dallas) and the first pick in the second round. Two picks in both the first and second rounds would be sweet.

Gcver2ver3
03-11-2009, 07:59 PM
what kinda sense would that even make?...

trade a 25 yr old Pro Bowl proven commodity at QB just to pick an unknown commodity AT A MUCH HIGHER PRICE TAG?...

that's pure stupidity...

and even if we didn't take a QB with that pick, then who is our QB?...

in order to pull a trade for Cutler we will require a king's ransom which is what the going rate for a young franchise QB is...

their 1st and 20th and i'd THINK about it...

cmhargrove
03-11-2009, 08:00 PM
Cutler + Calvin Johnson..... daaayumm!

That would be a dream gig for both guys.

Although I want Cutler to stay - don't get me wrong.

BroncoFiend
03-11-2009, 08:03 PM
If a Detriot fan says they wouldn't give up the #1 for Cutler then they are a fool.

Broncojef
03-11-2009, 08:05 PM
Purely out of curiosity. Again, I'm hoping he stays... but I just ran into a Detroit fan here at work. He said to me in the hall.... "Cutler and your #12 for the #1."

I laughed, then thought about it... would Detroit trade us straight across?

He says no. Of course, fans always overvalue their players and draft picks, but I wonder what the real value was.

I asked him why he thought Cutler wasn't worth the #1 after coming off of a Pro Bowl and he said "it looks like you have a malcontent on your hands."


What do you think? What's Cutler worth at this point... in reality, not homer-land... reality?


There are enough teams out there wanting talent like Jay's that his value is still very high despite him being a malcontent cry-baby. Any number of teams would bid his value up no matter how stupid he is.

crazyhorse
03-11-2009, 08:09 PM
Cutler for the #1 and #20?

Lemme think about it.


They would have to be nuts. Detroit, I mean.

Popps
03-11-2009, 08:11 PM
O.K... not like it matters, but just interesting...

Talked to Detroit fan #2 on the way out. His take...

-Would not make the trade straight across but would take Cutler and our #12 for their 1/20.

Basically, he said that he thinks Cutler is talented enough to "carry a team on his back to a championship," but said that he probably didn't think he would. He tried to explain why, and interestingly used the words "sad or deflated" when trying to explain what happens to Cutler in games, and his take was that he worried that Cutler was unable to pull himself out of these funks he gets in. He also mentioned some consistency concerns. But, was overall complementary of his skills and sounded like he'd rather have him than not have him.... but not at the cost of a #1.

UberBroncoMan
03-11-2009, 08:12 PM
Cutler for the #1 and #20?

Lemme think about it.

Cutler for the #1, #20, #33 and next years 2nd and 4th rounder.

Popps
03-11-2009, 08:18 PM
Cutler for the #1, #20, #33 and next years 2nd and 4th rounder.

:spit:

Popps
03-11-2009, 08:19 PM
I'd be curious to hear from totally unbiased fans in the sense of what they thought Cutler's value was if their team wasn't involved. Hmmm....

DrFate
03-11-2009, 08:26 PM
These picks can be SO overvalued. Look at the list of picks that are trash year after year. Especially at the QB position. Look at the other QBs who were drafted the same year as Cutler.

Even if you feel that Cutler is a whiney ass, he still has more value than a roll of the dice. Or two.

I've asked a number of fans I know, none of which are Bronco fans.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 08:30 PM
Suppose Denver gets the #1 for Cutler. Whom do you draft? Stafford? Isn't he the same player as Cutler? (ignoring the other obvious questions)

elsid13
03-11-2009, 08:35 PM
Suppose Denver gets the #1 for Cutler. Whom do you draft? Stafford? Isn't he the same player as Cutler? (ignoring the other obvious questions)

No he not. Yes he has strong arm like Cutler, he has no mobility compared to Cutler, his release is slower, he doesn't make as fast as reads, and he waits to long for routes to develop.

Mayock was very brutal on him a couple of days ago, and he was right.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 08:38 PM
No he not. Yes he has strong arm like Cutler, he has no mobility compared to Cutler, his release is slower, he doesn't make as fast as reads, and he waits to long for routes to develop.

Mayock was very brutal on him a couple of days ago, and he was right.


LOL

Northman
03-11-2009, 08:38 PM
Purely out of curiosity. Again, I'm hoping he stays...

Suuuuuuuure you are. Ha!

Northman
03-11-2009, 08:39 PM
:spit:

Even funnier, my floor only has about 50 employees or so, and TWO of them are MAJOR Lions fans.... TWO!!!

They're both actually really great fans, actually. You have to be damned loyal to be a Lions fan.

Other than that, three major Cowboys fans.... and me.

Thats two more than i have in my workplace. Im surrounded by 2 Eagles fans, 5 Steeler fans, 1 (yes thats right) Charger fan, 1 other Bronco fan, and the rest are Ravens fanatics.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 08:42 PM
My Redskins fan said (re trade #1 and #20 for Cutler):

Yes. In fact, if I were Vinny Cerrato I'd trade my entire draft, all four picks, for Cutler. Campbell is in the final year of his contract and nothing I've seen from him in his first four years leads me to believe he's going to get any better:(

BroncoFiend
03-11-2009, 09:04 PM
I'd be curious to hear from totally unbiased fans in the sense of what they thought Cutler's value was if their team wasn't involved. Hmmm....

I posed the hypothetical to a few major Bucs fans down here and they all agree that if they had the #1 and #20 they wouldn't hesitate for a player of Cutler's age and ability.

People have to realize just how rare a true talent at QB is. Tampa fans know all too well. They supposedly drafted that in Testaverde only for him to fail, then again with Dilfer. Meanwhile, they had Young but let him get away (he was too whiny apparently ;) ), and Doug Williams won his championship after he left. Basically Tampa has NEVER had an elite talent at QB despite multiple chances

The sport talk shows are STILL talking about scenarios in which the Bucs can get Cutler, and they have mentioned multiple times that however much is given up, the Bucs win out in the trade because getting a franchise QB is that hard to do.

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 09:13 PM
Cutler for the #1 and #20?

Lemme think about it.No way in hell. Cutler has done too much damage, imo. His actions have emboldened teams to lower their offers, imo. He's single-handedly given other teams leverage to offer LESS for him.
Well then, no. I probably would've said no to #1 and #20 anyway. Think about Tim Couch, Jeff George, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, VY, Leinart, etc .... we got ourselves a proven good one. And one in the hand is worth two in the bush.


They would have to be nuts. Detroit, I mean.
To trade #1 and #20 for Cutler?

Well that's fine ... because like I just said, I wouldn't do it anyway.
.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2009, 09:14 PM
No way in hell. Cutler has done too much damage, imo. His actions have emboldened teams to lower their offers, imo. He's single-handedly given other teams leverage to offer LESS for him.

No he hasn't really because of two things. 1) Cutler has zero leverage. He's under contract for 2 more years and Denver could technically franchise him for the third. He's not gonna sit out seasons...so he'd have to play.

2) Detroit won't be the only suitor...simple supply demand. Also, i'm not sure Detroit is really excited to pay a rookie 30 million dollars when there's not a surefire number 1.

Therefore...1 and 20 for Cutler ( a 25 year old pro bowl QB ) is a pretty fair deal if you ask me.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2009, 09:16 PM
Well then, no. I probably would've said no to #1 and #20 anyway. Think about Tim Couch, Jeff George, Akili Smith, Joey Harrington, VY, Leinart, etc .... we got ourselves a proven good one. And one in the hand is worth two in the bush.


To trade #1 and #20 for Cutler?

Well that's fine ... because like I just said, I wouldn't do it anyway.
.

If you get the 1 and 20...you're not drafting a QB in the first round. If you are thinking of doing that, keep your young pro bowl QB. With the 1 and 20, if you can trade down, you can completely rebuild your D. And with McDaniels having had success with late round/system QB's, you get one in the mid-rounds and take your chances with Chris Simms I guess.

cutthemdown
03-11-2009, 09:17 PM
All the hypothetical questions are sort of becoming a drag. I hate drama filled offseasons like this. First we do biggest tank job ever and lose a 3 game lead with 3 to go, punctuated by a huge ass whooping by our division rivals the Chargers. Then our coach get's shown the door. The guy who brought Broncos respectability and turned us from a late show punchline to Superbowl Champs.

Then our new coach and qb decide they want to jockey for power in some game of I'm more important then you think I am. Trade rumors, everybody I know asking me what's up with the Broncos, you guys are falling apart. If i hear that one more time from a stinking Raider fan I will probably punch him in the throat.

I'm sick of hypothetical questions when the reality of what Broncos have become is making me ill.

SonOfLe-loLang
03-11-2009, 09:18 PM
O.K... not like it matters, but just interesting...

Talked to Detroit fan #2 on the way out. His take...

-Would not make the trade straight across but would take Cutler and our #12 for their 1/20.

Basically, he said that he thinks Cutler is talented enough to "carry a team on his back to a championship," but said that he probably didn't think he would. He tried to explain why, and interestingly used the words "sad or deflated" when trying to explain what happens to Cutler in games, and his take was that he worried that Cutler was unable to pull himself out of these funks he gets in. He also mentioned some consistency concerns. But, was overall complementary of his skills and sounded like he'd rather have him than not have him.... but not at the cost of a #1.

They are ****ing dreaming, they are completely overvaluing their number 1 pick (which carries that huge payload). I'd probably do 1 and 20 for Cutler. They are being homers.

SlipperyPete
03-11-2009, 09:32 PM
I'd be curious to hear from totally unbiased fans in the sense of what they thought Cutler's value was if their team wasn't involved. Hmmm....

Totally unbiased fans (i.e. fans who have no reason to pay attention to the Broncos) aren't going to be informed enough on the situation to comment. They don't follow the situation closely enough to know of the red flags surrounding Jay's attitude and behavior, or of Denver's total lack of leverage in any trade talks.

That's why you'll get these answers like "Oh, sure, we'd give up all these high picks for Cutler. #1 and #20? Sure thing!".

SlipperyPete
03-11-2009, 09:33 PM
They are ****ing dreaming, they are completely overvaluing their number 1 pick (which carries that huge payload). I'd probably do 1 and 20 for Cutler. They are being homers.

If you seriously think the Lions would offer both #1 and #20, you're as guilty of homerism as the people you're criticizing.

Popps
03-11-2009, 09:42 PM
Totally unbiased fans (i.e. fans who have no reason to pay attention to the Broncos) aren't going to be informed enough on the situation to comment. They don't follow the situation closely enough to know of the red flags surrounding Jay's attitude and behavior, or of Denver's total lack of leverage in any trade talks.

That's why you'll get these answers like "Oh, sure, we'd give up all these high picks for Cutler. #1 and #20? Sure thing!".

Maybe... but smart fans generally have a little insight. Most of us can look at a starting QB in the NFL and take a pretty good guess at what he'd bring in a trade. It's just interesting to hear somewhat unbiased takes.

Popps
03-11-2009, 09:45 PM
If you seriously think the Lions would offer both #1 and #20, you're as guilty of homerism as the people you're criticizing.

Yea... there's no way.

Jay was drafted 11 and the argument seems to be that his attitude/demeanor has cancelled out some of what he's done on the field, so two #1's in the same year is insanity. Not going to happen.

BroncoMan4ever
03-11-2009, 09:48 PM
if in their minds Stafford or Sanchez are worth the number 1 pick, i have no doubt they would give us the number 1 pick in the draft straight up for a proven 25 year old pro bowl QB instead of hoping Stafford or Sanchez hit.

Popps
03-11-2009, 09:52 PM
if in their minds Stafford or Sanchez are worth the number 1 pick, i have no doubt they would give us the number 1 pick in the draft straight up for a proven 25 year old pro bowl QB instead of hoping Stafford or Sanchez hit.

Well, I spoke to two very well-versed Lions fans today who told me absolutely not when asked this same question, and they have their team's best interest in mind.

Obviously, they don't represent the front office... but they're probably right. Cutler carries risk, and his antics have made the situation considerably worse.

I'm not saying Cutler isn't worth the #1, but looking at the data out there and what's happening, I can almost guarantee you there's no way Detroit gives up their #1.

Rohirrim
03-11-2009, 09:57 PM
The #1 pick is simply punishment for sucking really bad. The punishment is that you have to pay somebody who could bust millions out of your cap. I'd rather get the Lions 20 and 33 and let them keep their #1. I still think this is all going to clear up and blow away by training camp.

enjolras
03-11-2009, 10:00 PM
Detroit would GLADLY give up #1 and #20 for Cutler... that's not homerism, it's economics.

The #1 pick is a TERRIBLE place to draft this year. No clear talent, and your going to be saddled with a $40 million signing bonus for a player that may or may not pan out as a professional.

Detroit doesn't even want the damn pick.

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 10:06 PM
Detroit would GLADLY give up #1 and #20 for Cutler... that's not homerism, it's economics.

The #1 pick is a TERRIBLE place to draft this year. No clear talent, and your going to be saddled with a $40 million signing bonus for a player that may or may not pan out as a professional.

Detroit doesn't even want the damn pick.

Good point.
.

ColoradoDarin
03-11-2009, 10:25 PM
I don't want #1 either way, too much $$$ for the crap shoot.

I would take #20 and #33 + a 3rd round (they have 2), then sign Garcia to be the short term QB and draft the kid from Alabama, John Parker Wilson, in the 3rd-4th round and see what McDaniels can do with a few years to groom him. We'd have 6 picks in the top 100 and 3 of the first 33.

kdissette
03-11-2009, 10:26 PM
Well Detroit almost traded the #2 pick a few years ago for Al Wilson......So dont put it past them.......I'd take Aaron Curry.

OBF1
03-11-2009, 11:32 PM
All this talk about drafting a QB in the 1st round, Neither Stafford or Sanchez is worth that kind of money.

Bye the way, What round was that Brady or Cassell guy drafted???

If you get 2 first round picks for anyone, take it and laugh all the way to the draft room. Now you have 3 1st round picks this year plus our early 2nd. IF we do a draft of the ages thing, we could be set for years to come.

lex
03-11-2009, 11:38 PM
No way in hell. Cutler has done too much damage, imo. His actions have emboldened teams to lower their offers, imo. He's single-handedly given other teams leverage to offer LESS for him.

What you dont realize is that there are teams who havent had a legitimate QB in over 20, 30, even 40 years. If Jay is worth one first, he's worth two firsts. If you think he has value in what he has done, can now do, and will do, then he is worth at least two firsts. If you dont value what you think he has done, can presently do, and will be able to do, then he's not worth a first.

Dudeskey
03-11-2009, 11:39 PM
Well Detroit almost traded the #2 pick a few years ago for Al Wilson......So dont put it past them.......I'd take Aaron Curry.

Too much guaranteed $$$ for what may not be a sure thing. Somthing that needs to change IMO.

Popps
03-11-2009, 11:49 PM
What you dont realize is that there are teams who havent had a legitimate QB in over 20, 30, even 40 years. If Jay is worth one first, he's worth two firsts. If you think he has value in what he has done, can now do, and will do, then he is worth at least two firsts. If you dont value what you think he has done, can presently do, and will be able to do, then he's not worth a first.

Wow, you really are just nuts, huh.

****, I never paid attention to your posts until you started pestering me. But, you really are just crazy. People aren't being hyperbolic when they say you're koo-koo for cocoa puffs.

Sweet lord.

OBF1
03-11-2009, 11:53 PM
This message is hidden because lex is on your ignore list.

Popps, when you get a minute I will show you how the ignore feature works :thumbs:

extralife
03-12-2009, 12:18 AM
Bye the way, What round was that Brady or Cassell guy drafted???

Just to jump on this for no reason, take a look around the NFL and see how many starting QBs were drafted after the first round. Brady and Cassell are pretty well close to it (Shaun Hill, Kurt Warner, Tavaris Jackson was a 2nd, Matt Shaub, Jake Delhomme, Tony Romo ok so that's like eight but you get my point).

OBF1
03-12-2009, 12:30 AM
8 of 32 = 25% and that is without digging into it. So what you are saying is that it takes the NEW ENGLAND coaching staff to make good starting QB's out of later round talent..... Enter Josh McDaniels. Thank you for helping my point.

OrangeRising
03-12-2009, 01:25 AM
enjolras-"Detroit would GLADLY give up #1 and #20 for Cutler... that's not homerism, it's economics.

The #1 pick is a TERRIBLE place to draft this year. No clear talent, and your going to be saddled with a $40 million signing bonus for a player that may or may not pan out as a professional.

Detroit doesn't even want the damn pick."

This was my feeling also. If Denver were to pick a QB, or any position really, with that #1, wouldn't the up-front price tag in guaranteed money be somewhere around 25-30 million dollars, and that's just the starting point.
Suppose, much to our good fortune, that Matt Stafford is the selection and he, indeed, turns out to be a franchise QB. How about that extension, or second contract? Holy Batman, Pat, how much you got on ya?

The #1 was designed to be a Godsend to the NFL lowly. It has become a financial albatross.

The Joker
03-12-2009, 06:10 AM
It'd be a terrible deal for Denver for reasons others have said.

I think the #20 and some other picks would be a better deal for the Broncos.

Maybe the #20 and #33 to start with.

I'm not sure how future picks are valued, but I think if we're trading Cutler we should be expecting to get the value of at least a Top 5 pick out of him. Immaturity issues or not, he's still a very valuable player and a much better bet to bring success than anybody you could draft.

The #20 and #33 picks have a combined value of 1430, or equivalent to the #8 overall pick.

So we'd need a bit more than that for me to trade him.

Maybe we could get their 3rd this year too, or some picks next year instead. Maybe if the Lions are really desperate we can get their 1st next year, again I don't know how these things are valued.

Tyson Jackson, Brian Cushing, Ron Brace and LeSean McCoy on Day 1 in the draft would be pretty tasty, with future extra picks to come as well on top of that.

We'd still need a QB though, of course.

broncofan7
03-12-2009, 06:15 AM
ridiculous--Cutler for the #1??? NO.

Dedhed
03-12-2009, 06:23 AM
I think the Lions would give up that pick, but if a trade were to take place (and I don't think it should or will) I would want to go after a future #1 while getting something in return this year.

I don't think the value is there at the top end of this draft. Get a 3rd this year, and a 2010 1st rounder.

Broncoman13
03-12-2009, 06:31 AM
IMO, Cutler is worth more than Stafford who they are considering at a overbloated price with the #1 pick. Jay is about as proven a product as you can have after 37 games, all things consider. If Detroit takes him, they basically skip the learning curve process in developing a QB and get a guy that instantly makes their offense dramatically better especially when considering that he'll be paired up with a top notch WR in Calvin Johnson and good young HB in Kevin Smith.

Detroit also still has a 1st round pick to fall back on in this scenario as well. It would make a lot of sense IMO.

Not only do they skip the learning curve process but they all but assure themselves of avoiding a Couch/Akili Smith/Ryan Leaf type of setback in a top 3 QB selection. Not saying that Stafford or Sanchez will bust, but they are unknowns to say the least.

To answer Popp's question, I think Cutler is worth the #20 and #33 this year and their #1 next year. I personally don't want their #1 overall this year. Nobody there worth the money. If there was a Julius Peppers/Mario Williams type player...maybe. But the only sure thing in this draft is Curry and as good as he will be, he is not worth the money it will take to sign the #1 overall pick.

The good news, with the #1 in next year's draft we can maneuver into the top of the first and get a guy like McCoy or Bradford if there are no other options.

I like Cutler, but it's become pretty clear that his days in Denver are numbered. The Broncos F'd up by giving him this little bit of ammo and now he's playing little biatch boy and trying to show the team who has the bigger D!ck. Personally, I say F*ck both Cutler and McXanders. Between the FO and Cutler/Buzz... the fans will pay the price for this blunder. SUCKS but that's the way it is.

Your co-worker or whatever does have a point. Everyone knows the Broncos have a situation on their hands with Cutler and that lowers his value more and more. I think the Broncos are leaking some information to the press to spin this in their direction (which was necessary b/c McD was getting KILLED!). But I also think that Buss is doing a lot of leaking of his own to keep this thing going. Three different agendas and Cutler is falling into a trap, but that trap will also pay him handsomely so maybe he isn't too concerned with it. Still sucks to be a Bronco fan right now. All that can be better if we can at least get a little value for Cutler now. 2009 is going to be a bumpy ride though. 4-12 maybe?

Broncoman13
03-12-2009, 06:36 AM
It'd be a terrible deal for Denver for reasons others have said.

I think the #20 and some other picks would be a better deal for the Broncos.

Maybe the #20 and #33 to start with.

I'm not sure how future picks are valued, but I think if we're trading Cutler we should be expecting to get the value of at least a Top 5 pick out of him. Immaturity issues or not, he's still a very valuable player and a much better bet to bring success than anybody you could draft.

The #20 and #33 picks have a combined value of 1430, or equivalent to the #8 overall pick.

So we'd need a bit more than that for me to trade him.

Maybe we could get their 3rd this year too, or some picks next year instead. Maybe if the Lions are really desperate we can get their 1st next year, again I don't know how these things are valued.

Tyson Jackson, Brian Cushing, Ron Brace and LeSean McCoy on Day 1 in the draft would be pretty tasty, with future extra picks to come as well on top of that.

We'd still need a QB though, of course.


Cutler who??? You get a draft with some guys like that and potentially a early pick in next year's draft as well... yeah, BYE-BYE CUTLER!

I think it's important to put ourselves in a position to move up for the top QBs in next year's draft though. The answer isn't in this year's draft. Although if anybody would fit, it would be Sanchez as he seems like the most accurate of the bunch. Anyhow, I think either Bradford or McCoy would be a much better fit. We'd have to tough it out with Chris Simms and another (Garcia maybe?) this year, but we'd be moving in the right direction with a bunch of good picks in the money part of the draft. 15-50 seems to be where you want to be in this draft. 4 picks around those money spots would go a long way toward improving this team. A LONG WAY!

Rohirrim
03-12-2009, 06:36 AM
What you dont realize is that there are teams who havent had a legitimate QB in over 20, 30, even 40 years. If Jay is worth one first, he's worth two firsts. If you think he has value in what he has done, can now do, and will do, then he is worth at least two firsts. If you dont value what you think he has done, can presently do, and will be able to do, then he's not worth a first.

Is that you, Rumsfeld?

crazyhorse
03-12-2009, 06:41 AM
It'd be a terrible deal for Denver for reasons others have said.

I think the #20 and some other picks would be a better deal for the Broncos.

Maybe the #20 and #33 to start with.

I'm not sure how future picks are valued, but I think if we're trading Cutler we should be expecting to get the value of at least a Top 5 pick out of him. Immaturity issues or not, he's still a very valuable player and a much better bet to bring success than anybody you could draft.

The #20 and #33 picks have a combined value of 1430, or equivalent to the #8 overall pick.

So we'd need a bit more than that for me to trade him.

Maybe we could get their 3rd this year too, or some picks next year instead. Maybe if the Lions are really desperate we can get their 1st next year, again I don't know how these things are valued.

Tyson Jackson, Brian Cushing, Ron Brace and LeSean McCoy on Day 1 in the draft would be pretty tasty, with future extra picks to come as well on top of that.

We'd still need a QB though, of course.

Speaking from a value standpoint. A 2nd round pick this year is usually valued as a 1st round pick next year. A 3rd rounder this year has the value of a second next year, and so on.

With that in mind. If you were to get a second rounder next season as part of a trade this season it would be the equivalent of a 3rd rounder this season.

Dendave
03-12-2009, 06:44 AM
from a Detroit News article

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090312/SPORTS0101/903120376/1004/SPORTS

Broncos' Cutler could yet go on block

Lions already tried once to trade for QB, who is now feuding with coach.

John Niyo / The Detroit News

The Lions tried trading for Jay <NOBR id=itxt_nobr_0_0 style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: 100%">Cutler</NOBR> once already this offseason.
Now the question is whether they'll get another shot, as a simmering feud between the Pro Bowl quarterback and his new head coach, Josh McDaniels, continues in Denver.
If Tuesday's conference call between the camps was an attempt to mend fences and soothe Cutler's feelings after the Broncos contemplated a three-way deal that would've reunited McDaniels with Matt Cassel, his former protege in New England, it failed.

But if it was an attempt by the team to remind Cutler who's calling the shots -- owner Pat Bowlen and his top two front-office executives joined McDaniels on the call -- time will tell if it worked. Cutler's still miffed and reportedly hasn't decided if he'll show up Monday in Denver for the teams first voluntary workouts.
The next move belongs to Cutler and his agent, Bus Cook, who certainly is no stranger to offseason soap operas as Brett Favre's longtime representative. And Cutler might be wise to heed the advice of Chauncey Billups, the former Pistons star who was traded to Denver last fall.
"Obviously it's a humbling experience to be talked about in a trade or to be traded," Billups told KCNC-TV in Denver. "But you have to learn from it, know it's a business, and you just have to go out and play great."
Cutler isn't a great quarterback yet, with a 17-20 record as an NFL starter and some lackluster play in December. But he's only 25 -- 26 next month -- and did throw for more than 4,500 yards last season.
That's why it'll be difficult to pry him loose from Denver. Even with a new front office and coaching staff, the Broncos aren't in rebuilding mode. They just missed the playoffs a year ago and have been active in free agency, signing veterans like safety Brian Dawkins.
The would-be deal for Cassel wouldn't have changed that -- McDaniels probably viewed that move as an upgrade. But a two-way swap with the Lions or Tampa Bay or any other interested teams now likely wouldn't provide the Broncos an experienced starter of Cutler's caliber at quarterback. And while Denver did add free agent Chris Simms last week, he's a backup, not a starter. So unless the damage is irreparable -- and that's certainly possible -- Cutler probably is staying put.
If not, the Lions do have something to offer, with five of the first 82 picks in April's draft and perhaps only one untouchable on the roster in receiver Calvin Johnson. In fact, he might be the ace up their sleeve if trade talks were to heat up: Johnson has the same agent as Cutler.
That conference call is on hold for the moment, though.
<!--startclickprintexclude-->

Broncoman13
03-12-2009, 06:48 AM
Speaking from a value standpoint. A 2nd round pick this year is usually valued as a 1st round pick next year. A 3rd rounder this year has the value of a second next year, and so on.

With that in mind. If you were to get a second rounder next season as part of a trade this season it would be the equivalent of a 3rd rounder this season.

Correct, so a 1st next year is the same as a 2nd this year. So, if you were to send Cutler to Detroit (to rot in hell!) it would essentially be for a mid 1st (20) and a pair of early 2nds (33 and next year's #1). I think that is pretty fair value for a QB that you know has the tools to succeed and has had success in the NFL as opposed to drafting a QB #1 overall and paying him about the same amount without knowing if or when he'll be able to contribute!

El Guapo
03-12-2009, 07:37 AM
No way. You guys are smokin' crack. Jay is our man.

Rohirrim
03-12-2009, 07:58 AM
No way. You guys are smokin' crack. Jay is our man.

Depends on the deal, doesn't it? ;D

El Guapo
03-12-2009, 08:20 AM
No. Also, there is no way Jay would leave. He's got a powerhouse offense here. C'mon. Take me back to reality please.

want2bAbronco2
03-12-2009, 08:35 AM
I want Jay to stay and lead this team. BUT if he doesnt show up Monday and show that he is a leader and can put stuff behind him for the team, then trade him.

I don't want the #1 pick (too much money). Sign Garcia with Simms as a back up, take pick #20, 2nd rnd, and 1st next year. That would give us 2 picks in 1st rnd and 2 picks in 2nd rnd. Dl, LB2x, and WR/RB/S and we can get a QB next year with 2 first rnd picks.

Drek
03-12-2009, 09:16 AM
Purely out of curiosity. Again, I'm hoping he stays... but I just ran into a Detroit fan here at work. He said to me in the hall.... "Cutler and your #12 for the #1."

I laughed, then thought about it... would Detroit trade us straight across?

He says no. Of course, fans always overvalue their players and draft picks, but I wonder what the real value was.

I asked him why he thought Cutler wasn't worth the #1 after coming off of a Pro Bowl and he said "it looks like you have a malcontent on your hands."


What do you think? What's Cutler worth at this point... in reality, not homer-land... reality?
The problem your co-worker has is that the Broncos won't move Cutler at a subsidized cost simply because he's unhappy.

That isn't the Belichick way and it won't be the McDaniels way. He'll handle it a lot like Andy Reid handled TO when he threw his little fit. Suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team, not have to pay him, and go forward with Sims as the QB along with a draftee.

At that point Cutler is seen as a malcontent around the league and he loses millions of dollars, and trade value, by the week. He'd quickly wise up and get his **** together, or be out of the league in fairly short order.

If the Broncos start winning without him though? Well then all bets are off and he's really going to have to fight for a chance to stick in the NFL.

Teams have all the leverage in the NFL, so Cutler's attitude problems just hurt himself long term. He'll see that sooner or later, but if its later he's going to look a whole lot like a modern day Jeff George when all is said and done.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 09:21 AM
The problem your co-worker has is that the Broncos won't move Cutler at a subsidized cost simply because he's unhappy.

That isn't the Belichick way and it won't be the McDaniels way. He'll handle it a lot like Andy Reid handled TO when he threw his little fit. Suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team, not have to pay him, and go forward with Sims as the QB along with a draftee.

Wouldn't that be great if he handled it just like Andy Reid?

I mean, instead of getting compensation, we could get NOTHING in return and just a boat load of dead money. Then we could see him go to a rival team in a huge money deal and lead the NFL in TDs!

That would be awesome!

colonelbeef
03-12-2009, 09:25 AM
to answer the OP's question, detroit would give us their #1, Henry Ford's corpse, and 1/3 of lake Michigan for Jay Cutler. The original post shows your naivete regarding Cutler and his importance/worth

Drek
03-12-2009, 09:30 AM
Wouldn't that be great if he handled it just like Andy Reid?

I mean, instead of getting compensation, we could get NOTHING in return and just a boat load of dead money. Then we could see him go to a rival team in a huge money deal and lead the NFL in TDs!

That would be awesome!
We've got a longer contract on Cutler, so we can leverage him much more powerfully.

And if thats what it takes to establish a team of professionals here in Denver, after so many years of stereotypical spoiled pro athletes then I'm all for it.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 09:37 AM
We've got a longer contract on Cutler, so we can leverage him much more powerfully.

And if thats what it takes to establish a team of professionals here in Denver, after so many years of stereotypical spoiled pro athletes then I'm all for it.

I'm just saying that might be the worst possible analogy.

As for leveraging him? I honestly think he's the one with leverage.

The Joker
03-12-2009, 09:46 AM
Been thinking about it and I think a fair deal would be the Lions #20 and #33 this year, then their first next year on top of that.

That's the absolute minimum Denver should accept, and I'd be inclined to try and get some more picks out of em if I could tbh.

Whiney little baby or not, Cutler can play. His ability to avoid sacks would also be useful on the Lions, who need a rebuild on the O-Line. Something to build the franchise around, and still have a #1 pick to play with.

Hopefully we can work this **** out and get Jay back on board with what the new regime wants to do, obviously that's what would be best for the team.

But if the situation can't be amended, a deal like this could make sense for both parties.

Drek
03-12-2009, 09:50 AM
I'm just saying that might be the worst possible analogy.

As for leveraging him? I honestly think he's the one with leverage.

By being under a one way binding contract with a football team who can cut or trade him at their discretion, but having none of that power himself?

A deal with at least two more years on it, and that will see him as an RFA if the league heads into an uncapped year?

Where the team can franchise or transition tag him at will even when he reaches FA to prevent him from going anywhere?

We've got plenty of cap room right now and we just signed a 28 year old QB who was the starter on a playoff team not too long ago. If we were up against the cap and Hackney was still our best #2 option then maybe he'd have more leverage, but as it stands the Broncos can do whatever they want from trade him to bench him outright for the next two years running.

Not many teams are lining up for Michael Vick and no one questions his willingness to compete on the football field. He also won a hell of a lot more than Cutler ever has. He's a character risk and that hurts some (but TO, Leonard Little, and a host of other horrible people still have jobs in this league) but the biggest concern is that he's been out of football too long. You think teams are going to trip over themselves to throw big money at Jay Cutler if the Broncos put him on the inactive roster for two seasons running?

USMCBladerunner
03-12-2009, 09:53 AM
It would have to be a pretty rich deal for the Broncos to do it now. Getting Cassel along with other compensation was basically a tradeoff between a downgrade at QB in order to fill complete holes in other areas of the team. Without a starting QB coming in, we create the biggest hole in all of football, in the QB. I don't see us coveting any of the top QBs, so to me, #20, #33, and next years 1st would be in the realm of reason, but no less than that.

rad
03-12-2009, 09:54 AM
Yea... there's no way.

Jay was drafted 11 and the argument seems to be that his attitude/demeanor has cancelled out some of what he's done on the field, so two #1's in the same year is insanity. Not going to happen.

They should probably just get a 1 and 2 from Detroit so that they can then try to get Cassel from KC......seems like that's who Mickey D wants anyway. If he has the players he wants to coach, **** it, he'll probably do well.

ZONA
03-12-2009, 10:01 AM
Detroit would give their #1 up for Jay in a heart beat. But the Broncos would not take such a lousy deal. Hey, just because you have the the #1 pick doesn't mean that guy is going to be a player, I think we all know that. So why run the risk of giving up a pro-bowl QB for the unknown? That's right, no smart GM would.

The #1 & #20 you would have to think about it but I to be honest, you're talking about the most important position on the field and finding a lagit pro-bowl QB is very hard. And getting a high draft doesn't ensure you're going to get one. Just look at Alex Smith, Akili whats his name, and countless other QB busts. What if both the #1 and #20 turned out to be draft busts, you would have set this franchise back for years. Now if you said the #1 and Rogers, okay, now we are talking. Now you got my attention.

baja
03-12-2009, 10:03 AM
There will be no Cutler trade unless it includes a ready to play QB. That's a no brainer guys so trading Cutler for Detroit's #1 is a bad deal and it ain't gonna happen.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 10:05 AM
By being under a one way binding contract with a football team who can cut or trade him at their discretion, but having none of that power himself?

A deal with at least two more years on it, and that will see him as an RFA if the league heads into an uncapped year?

Where the team can franchise or transition tag him at will even when he reaches FA to prevent him from going anywhere?

We've got plenty of cap room right now and we just signed a 28 year old QB who was the starter on a playoff team not too long ago. If we were up against the cap and Hackney was still our best #2 option then maybe he'd have more leverage, but as it stands the Broncos can do whatever they want from trade him to bench him outright for the next two years running.

Not many teams are lining up for Michael Vick and no one questions his willingness to compete on the football field. He also won a hell of a lot more than Cutler ever has. He's a character risk and that hurts some (but TO, Leonard Little, and a host of other horrible people still have jobs in this league) but the biggest concern is that he's been out of football too long. You think teams are going to trip over themselves to throw big money at Jay Cutler if the Broncos put him on the inactive roster for two seasons running?


His option bonus price is high NEXT year.

And I'm not sure if you noticed but a head coach's success is truly tied to the ability of his quarterback. Do you think Pat has the patience to let McDaniel's draft and start grooming another? Hilarious!

Rohirrim
03-12-2009, 10:06 AM
Let's put it this way, if you're going to take Detroit's number one, first make sure that Curry's agent isn't Bus Cook. ;D

baja
03-12-2009, 10:08 AM
If teams could work together that could make it very tough on unreasonable agents.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 10:10 AM
Let's put it this way, if you're going to take Detroit's number one, first make sure that Curry's agent isn't Bus Cook. ;D

That's inconsequential.

If you're taking someone #1, you're paying record money out of the gate. A price that will dwarf Jay's for not nearly the level of production.

USMCBladerunner
03-12-2009, 10:12 AM
Detroit would give their #1 up for Jay in a heart beat. But the Broncos would not take such a lousy deal. Hey, just because you have the the #1 pick doesn't mean that guy is going to be a player, I think we all know that. So why run the risk of giving up a pro-bowl QB for the unknown? That's right, no smart GM would.

The #1 & #20 you would have to think about it but I to be honest, you're talking about the most important position on the field and finding a lagit pro-bowl QB is very hard. And getting a high draft doesn't ensure you're going to get one. Just look at Alex Smith, Akili whats his name, and countless other QB busts. What if both the #1 and #20 turned out to be draft busts, you would have set this franchise back for years. Now if you said the #1 and Rogers, okay, now we are talking. Now you got my attention.

They don't have Rogers anymore? They traded him to Cleveland I thought.

Drek
03-12-2009, 10:14 AM
His option bonus price is high NEXT year.

And I'm not sure if you noticed but a head coach's success is truly tied to the ability of his quarterback. Do you think Pat has the patience to let McDaniel's draft and start grooming another? Hilarious!

And they still have a ton of cap room to eat it if they so chose. The money is all theoretical because if he isn't behaving himself they can suspend him for "conduct detrimental to the team" and not actually pay him.

Also, McDaniels took Matt Cassel and turned him into the QB of an 11-5 team despite an aging and flawed defense opposite him, without nearly the OL we have here. I think he can probably win more than a few games with Chris Simms while he grooms his next QB.

They should probably just get a 1 and 2 from Detroit so that they can then try to get Cassel from KC......seems like that's who Mickey D wants anyway. If he has the players he wants to coach, **** it, he'll probably do well.
Why do you think that? McDaniels was laying the ground work to replace Cassel just last year in New England. They had an MVP QB and Cassel but that didn't stop them from drafting O'Connell in the 3rd round. He was the OC then and just coordinated the best statistical offense of all time so he probably had a good bit of say in that.

The notion that he was in love with Cassel is pretty retarded. Hell, they were apparently offered deals including Cassel and multiple first day picks for Cutler and still refused them, so that doesn't show a whole lot of love as far as I can tell.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 10:19 AM
And they still have a ton of cap room to eat it if they so chose. The money is all theoretical because if he isn't behaving himself they can suspend him for "conduct detrimental to the team" and not actually pay him.

Also, McDaniels took Matt Cassel and turned him into the QB of an 11-5 team despite an aging and flawed defense opposite him, without nearly the OL we have here. I think he can probably win more than a few games with Chris Simms while he grooms his next QB.

There's going to have to a lot more than what's on the table now for "conduct detrimental to the team" to even remotely be an option. In fact, if they even just benched him now for Chris Simms he might be able to file and win a grievance. And I think you're certainly over-rating Chris Simms ability.

This really seems more like a vendetta against Jay Cutler than doing what's best for a football team.

Hercules Rockefeller
03-12-2009, 10:23 AM
Funny, after all these years of Bubby, Griese, Frerotte, Chris Miller, Jake Plummer, BVP, etc., Denver finally has a franchise QB and "the draft picks trump all" crew are willing to dump him because he might net Denver 3 or 4 picks this year and next. They're all chicken **** to pay the 1st overall because of the guaranteed money an unproven player will get, but more than willing to trade Jay for multiple lower picks. They'll probably be super excited too for the Top 5 pick that any trade of Cutler will guarantee the Broncos.

Rohirrim
03-12-2009, 10:29 AM
That's inconsequential.

If you're taking someone #1, you're paying record money out of the gate. A price that will dwarf Jay's for not nearly the level of production.

It was a joke. Get over yourself.

Rohirrim
03-12-2009, 10:35 AM
Funny, after all these years of Bubby, Griese, Frerotte, Chris Miller, Jake Plummer, BVP, etc., Denver finally has a franchise QB and "the draft picks trump all" crew are willing to dump him because he might net Denver 3 or 4 picks this year and next. They're all chicken **** to pay the 1st overall because of the guaranteed money an unproven player will get, but more than willing to trade Jay for multiple lower picks. They'll probably be super excited too for the Top 5 pick that any trade of Cutler will guarantee the Broncos.

I don't believe this discussion is based on what people want. It's more based on speculation of what the Broncos might have to deal with if (for instance) Cutler refused to come to camp, or in some other way tried to force his way out of town. Given his agent, maybe not an entirely unlikely scenario. I know I would prefer Jay get over it, come into Dove Valley, and get back to football. For those who say Jay is under contract and couldn't force anything and will just have to sit on the bench if he doesn't want to come to some kind of resolution with the team, take into account the effect that kind of disruption has on the team. No. If Jay and his agent really want out of here, they can make it happen.

Drek
03-12-2009, 10:40 AM
There's going to have to a lot more than what's on the table now for "conduct detrimental to the team" to even remotely be an option. In fact, if they even just benched him now for Chris Simms he might be able to file and win a grievance. And I think you're certainly over-rating Chris Simms ability.

This really seems more like a vendetta against Jay Cutler than doing what's best for a football team.

This one line here pretty much shows that you have zero grip on reality. Players have been benched for less and replaced by a lot worse.

Also, it doesn't take much for a team to suspend someone for "conduct detrimental to the team". Case in point, most NFL contracts have media clauses, basically saying that you can't defame the team through the media. Jay Cutler was bordering on that in his very first interview out of the gate here, implying that the FO lied to him. He's walking a real delicate line.

And its not a vendetta against Cutler, its setting a standard for accountability and responsibility within the football team. For most organizations and players you just need to set that standard as it pertains to on the field aspects of football. Jay Cutler clearly has chosen to make that into an off the field issue too, by taking umbrage at front office moves and choosing to air those grievances through the media. He's taken it to the very edge of crossing over into unacceptable conduct. If the FO doesn't punish him for it or worse, coddles him after it, they're defying the standard of professionalism that everyone is assumed to maintain off the field. So if you can't hold up that basic assumption then what chance do you have to establish the same kind of accountability and responsibility on the field? None. The whole organization would be screwed and the Broncos might as well just throw an eye patch on the logo and start drafting anyone with a good 40 time, because we'd be the Rockie Mountain Raiders at that point.

Funny, after all these years of Bubby, Griese, Frerotte, Chris Miller, Jake Plummer, BVP, etc., Denver finally has a franchise QB and "the draft picks trump all" crew are willing to dump him because he might net Denver 3 or 4 picks this year and next. They're all chicken **** to pay the 1st overall because of the guaranteed money an unproven player will get, but more than willing to trade Jay for multiple lower picks. They'll probably be super excited too for the Top 5 pick that any trade of Cutler will guarantee the Broncos.

I have no desire to see Cutler leave Denver. But he's got to sack up and want to be in Denver, playing for McDaniels, or else we don't actually have a franchise QB to speak of. That is where all this is coming from, people are starting to think that Jay doesn't give a **** about Denver, the Broncos, or anyone outside a select few of his teammates.

If we do move him though I'd desperately want the #1 overall pick. Aaron Curry is as close as it gets to a sure thing standout LB and he'd be teaming with a great LB coach in Nolan. He'd quickly become not just the face of the defense, but the face of the franchise and would reshape this organization in a very positive way.

rad
03-12-2009, 10:41 AM
Why do you think that? McDaniels was laying the ground work to replace Cassel just last year in New England. They had an MVP QB and Cassel but that didn't stop them from drafting O'Connell in the 3rd round. He was the OC then and just coordinated the best statistical offense of all time so he probably had a good bit of say in that.

The notion that he was in love with Cassel is pretty retarded. Hell, they were apparently offered deals including Cassel and multiple first day picks for Cutler and still refused them, so that doesn't show a whole lot of love as far as I can tell.

1) Because of this (which YOU wrote):confuzzle

Also, McDaniels took Matt Cassel and turned him into the QB of an 11-5 team despite an aging and flawed defense opposite him, without nearly the OL we have here.

2) Cassel showed his abilities AFTER the groundwork for replacement. Why would McD entertain the idea of trading for Cassel if he still believed he needed to be replaced?

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 10:44 AM
This one line here pretty much shows that you have zero grip on reality. Players have been benched for less and replaced by a lot worse.

Also, it doesn't take much for a team to suspend someone for "conduct detrimental to the team". Case in point, most NFL contracts have media clauses, basically saying that you can't defame the team through the media. Jay Cutler was bordering on that in his very first interview out of the gate here, implying that the FO lied to him. He's walking a real delicate line.

And its not a vendetta against Cutler, its setting a standard for accountability and responsibility within the football team. For most organizations and players you just need to set that standard as it pertains to on the field aspects of football. Jay Cutler clearly has chosen to make that into an off the field issue too, by taking umbrage at front office moves and choosing to air those grievances through the media. He's taken it to the very edge of crossing over into unacceptable conduct. If the FO doesn't punish him for it or worse, coddles him after it, they're defying the standard of professionalism that everyone is assumed to maintain off the field. So if you can't hold up that basic assumption then what chance do you have to establish the same kind of accountability and responsibility on the field? None. The whole organization would be screwed and the Broncos might as well just throw an eye patch on the logo and start drafting anyone with a good 40 time, because we'd be the Rockie Mountain Raiders at that point.

Absolutely not. Setting an example for the team and doing what's best for the team if they deem him unfit for the Broncos, is to take value for him and move on. Benching him under "conduct detrimental to the team" for Chris Simms, and then excercizing option bonuses only to keep him benched? And then you've even suggested using franchise and transition tags? That's ****ing insanity. The union wouldn't stand for it. Hell, even if rumors are true and some players don't like him, they'd probably even call foul.

Drek
03-12-2009, 11:01 AM
1) Because of this (which YOU wrote):confuzzle



2) Cassel showed his abilities AFTER the groundwork for replacement. Why would McD entertain the idea of trading for Cassel if he still believed he needed to be replaced?

So you think that people running NFL franchises are so damn retarded that they don't know what they've got until it hits the field?

Chalk one up for "I'm a fan but I know better than those guys making six and seven figures to do the job!".

They knew what they had in Cassel, and I bet they got exactly what they expected out of him. Its also why NE was so quick to tag him and then so quick to move him for a 2nd. They don't need him because of the work McDaniels put in place last year.

The only reason he even considered trades for Cassel is because those same deals carried multiple other first day picks. Picks that would help rebuild the defense. Its just like he told Cutler on the conference call, no on is above being traded if it makes the team as a whole better.

Absolutely not. Setting an example for the team and doing what's best for the team if they deem him unfit for the Broncos, is to take value for him and move on. Benching him under "conduct detrimental to the team" for Chris Simms, and then excercizing option bonuses only to keep him benched? And then you've even suggested using franchise and transition tags? That's ****ing insanity. The union wouldn't stand for it. Hell, even if rumors are true and some players don't like him, they'd probably even call foul.
You don't need a reason to bench him, just to suspend him. And a team has every right to hang onto whatever quality backup QB they feel like.

No one would call foul and no one could do anything about it. Thats the NFL and thats how it works. Might not seem fair but its the reality of being a pro athlete.

There are literally thousands of football players over the history of the league who feel they were robbed of a good career because the coach didn't let them play. And there are more than a few examples of solid prospects or players who were signed up as nothing more than leverage against a disgrunted or unhappy player.

Go ask the Giants if it was wrong for them to sign Chris Canty, even though everyone expected them to be shopping a DE this off-season, not buying one. Now when Robbins, Askew, Kiwanuka, Tuck, etc. comes looking for the big money the Giants hold all the cards. They can tag them if they want, or they can just let them walk. But until their contracts are up if they want to play NFL football they play it in whatever role the Giants tell them to.

Or for a more close to home example, go ask Terry Pierce how his NFL career went after the Broncos left him on the bench and had him add and gain weight in accordance with whatever mood struck the DC at the time when all he ever was in the first place was a bargaining chip to get Al Wilson extended for reasonable money.

Football is a business and players are just assets. Last I knew Bill Gates didn't let middle management from a subsidiary company, no matter how successful, tell him how to run Microsoft.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 11:05 AM
So you think that people running NFL franchises are so damn retarded that they don't know what they've got until it hits the field?

Chalk one up for "I'm a fan but I know better than those guys making six and seven figures to do the job!".

They knew what they had in Cassel, and I bet they got exactly what they expected out of him. Its also why NE was so quick to tag him and then so quick to move him for a 2nd. They don't need him because of the work McDaniels put in place last year.

The only reason he even considered trades for Cassel is because those same deals carried multiple other first day picks. Picks that would help rebuild the defense. Its just like he told Cutler on the conference call, no on is above being traded if it makes the team as a whole better.


You don't need a reason to bench him, just to suspend him. And a team has every right to hang onto whatever quality backup QB they feel like.

No one would call foul and no one could do anything about it. Thats the NFL and thats how it works. Might not seem fair but its the reality of being a pro athlete.

There are literally thousands of football players over the history of the league who feel they were robbed of a good career because the coach didn't let them play. And there are more than a few examples of solid prospects or players who were signed up as nothing more than leverage against a disgrunted or unhappy player.

Go ask the Giants if it was wrong for them to sign Chris Canty, even though everyone expected them to be shopping a DE this off-season, not buying one. Now when Robbins, Askew, Kiwanuka, Tuck, etc. comes looking for the big money the Giants hold all the cards. They can tag them if they want, or they can just let them walk. But until their contracts are up if they want to play NFL football they play it in whatever role the Giants tell them to.

Or for a more close to home example, go ask Terry Pierce how his NFL career went after the Broncos left him on the bench and had him add and gain weight in accordance with whatever mood struck the DC at the time when all he ever was in the first place was a bargaining chip to get Al Wilson extended for reasonable money.

Football is a business and players are just assets. Last I knew Bill Gates didn't let middle management from a subsidiary company, no matter how successful, tell him how to run Microsoft.

So how many years are you talking?

Earlier you said suspend to avoid paying money. Now you're talking about benching again, and I'm guessing picking up the option and paying him a large sum of money only to bench him again, with takes about 15 million off the table that could go to extensions to other players before they hit FA... but sure, this isn't a vendetta, this is what's best for the team!

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 11:06 AM
It was a joke. Get over yourself.

In that case: You're not funny. Get over yourself.

Drek
03-12-2009, 11:17 AM
So how many years are you talking?

Earlier you said suspend to avoid paying money. Now you're talking about benching again, and I'm guessing picking up the option and paying him a large sum of money only to bench him again, with takes about 15 million off the table that could go to extensions to other players before they hit FA... but sure, this isn't a vendetta, this is what's best for the team!

Depends how it plays out.

If he gets into camp and plays well, but then has an axe to grind come the end of his contract you tag him.

If he holds out you suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team and you don't pay him.

If he shows up but generally acts like a dick you determine if its enough to suspend him, if not you just bench him and let Simms play instead.

So in that context, yes, Cutler has a ton of leverage. He can chose if he wants the Broncos organization to run his career into a ditch or if he wants to man up and play like he's got a pair.

Not a vendetta, but Cutler needs to realize there is only one team out there where he can play NFL level pro football until the Broncos, not Jay Cutler and Bus Cook, decide otherwise.

HILife
03-12-2009, 11:20 AM
Purely out of curiosity. Again, I'm hoping he stays... but I just ran into a Detroit fan here at work.

Congrats on your rare discovery. Maybe they will name it after you.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 11:30 AM
Depends how it plays out.

If he gets into camp and plays well, but then has an axe to grind come the end of his contract you tag him.

If he holds out you suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team and you don't pay him.

If he shows up but generally acts like a dick you determine if its enough to suspend him, if not you just bench him and let Simms play instead.

So in that context, yes, Cutler has a ton of leverage. He can chose if he wants the Broncos organization to run his career into a ditch or if he wants to man up and play like he's got a pair.

Not a vendetta, but Cutler needs to realize there is only one team out there where he can play NFL level pro football until the Broncos, not Jay Cutler and Bus Cook, decide otherwise.

I don't think a hold out warrants a suspension... he won't get paid as long as he "holds out", if you mean forcing his hand, I can agree there.

Now, you also realize that if Denver benches him for one year, and then doesn't pick up his option, he has a massive bidding war for his services on the FA market, right? It's not "running his career into a ditch", it's him getting paid more, earlier.

...and meanwhile Denver gets stuck with Chris ****ing Simms or some rookie...

Kaylore
03-12-2009, 11:32 AM
Congrats on your rare discovery. Maybe they will name it after you.

Ha! I work with a Lions fan. He's also got the Red Wings and the Pistons so it's not like it's all doom and gloom for those guys. You should have seen what he did when Millen was fired. It was hilarious.

Drek
03-12-2009, 11:39 AM
I don't think a hold out warrants a suspension... he won't get paid as long as he "holds out", if you mean forcing his hand, I can agree there.
Its in violation of his contract and takes his services away from the team. That is detrimental to the team and therefore a reason to suspend him if desired.

Guys get suspended for not showing up to camp or missing a practice all the time, FYI.

Now, you also realize that if Denver benches him for one year, and then doesn't pick up his option, he has a massive bidding war for his services on the FA market, right? It's not "running his career into a ditch", it's him getting paid more, earlier.

...and meanwhile Denver gets stuck with Chris ****ing Simms or some rookie...
They wouldn't not pick up his option. They'd only let him go if they got something worthwhile in trade. He'd have a minimum of two years rust if he decides to play that game.

And there wouldn't be this massive bidding war you expect if he gets basically shut down for a season for being a dick. Teams would be very wary of his personality and they'd bid for him assuming he's going to be rusty. More importantly, if McDaniels and whatever theoretical QB Cutler is replaced by (like Simms) has some good success then even more of the bloom comes off Cutler's rose.

I want Cutler on the Broncos, I really do. But I want him on the team under the conditions that he takes on the same level of accountability and responsibility that every other member of the roster is already being held to. A level of responsibility that entails him possibly being traded if its for the greater good of the franchise, or benched if he isn't constantly working to become better and help the team win.

If we're supposed to believe what Cutler said in media interviews that is the real hang up here and that is entirely on his side. If in fact he's just angling for a new deal or to be traded, well, that's a different matter and a gap that requires the organization's cooperation to bridge, which I don't think they'll be inclined to offer.

ColoradoDarin
03-12-2009, 11:54 AM
If he holds out you suspend him for conduct detrimental to the team and you don't pay him.

I thought they did away with that rule after the new CBA was signed (the year after TO situation)? I could be wrong since I'm not looking it up.

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 11:57 AM
Its in violation of his contract and takes his services away from the team. That is detrimental to the team and therefore a reason to suspend him if desired.

Guys get suspended for not showing up to camp or missing a practice all the time, FYI.


They wouldn't not pick up his option. They'd only let him go if they got something worthwhile in trade. He'd have a minimum of two years rust if he decides to play that game.

And there wouldn't be this massive bidding war you expect if he gets basically shut down for a season for being a dick. Teams would be very wary of his personality and they'd bid for him assuming he's going to be rusty. More importantly, if McDaniels and whatever theoretical QB Cutler is replaced by (like Simms) has some good success then even more of the bloom comes off Cutler's rose.

I want Cutler on the Broncos, I really do. But I want him on the team under the conditions that he takes on the same level of accountability and responsibility that every other member of the roster is already being held to. A level of responsibility that entails him possibly being traded if its for the greater good of the franchise, or benched if he isn't constantly working to become better and help the team win.

If we're supposed to believe what Cutler said in media interviews that is the real hang up here and that is entirely on his side. If in fact he's just angling for a new deal or to be traded, well, that's a different matter and a gap that requires the organization's cooperation to bridge, which I don't think they'll be inclined to offer.

I think every sentence in this post is very unrealistic.

Rohirrim
03-12-2009, 12:02 PM
In that case: You're not funny. Get over yourself.

4321~

Drek
03-12-2009, 12:05 PM
I think every sentence in this post is very unrealistic.

Why not back up what you think with rational talking points?

Or is the "Cutler has got to be right because he was a Bronco before McDaniels" stance really have that tenuous a grip on the reality of this situation?

Sure seems to me like it does.

rad
03-12-2009, 12:17 PM
So you think that people running NFL franchises are so damn retarded that they don't know what they've got until it hits the field?

Chalk one up for "I'm a fan but I know better than those guys making six and seven figures to do the job!".

They knew what they had in Cassel, and I bet they got exactly what they expected out of him. Its also why NE was so quick to tag him and then so quick to move him for a 2nd. They don't need him because of the work McDaniels put in place last year.

The only reason he even considered trades for Cassel is because those same deals carried multiple other first day picks. Picks that would help rebuild the defense. Its just like he told Cutler on the conference call, no on is above being traded if it makes the team as a whole better.

Dude, WTF are you talking about? **** no they didn't know what they had. They drafted him in the 7th. Dude had not started a single game since HIGH SCHOOL....They drafted on potential alone...literally.

In fact, you're the one assuming you know more than the professionals here....I'm stating actual facts, dude. Cassel had no tape out of college, and McD mulled bringing him Denver. Why?

Oh, and who else do you think they have that they should have tagged instead of Cassel?

TheReverend
03-12-2009, 12:19 PM
Why not back up what you think with rational talking points?

Or is the "Cutler has got to be right because he was a Bronco before McDaniels" stance really have that tenuous a grip on the reality of this situation?

Sure seems to me like it does.

Ummmm no. And me saying that wasn't libel, I just can't envision anything you said coming to light.

People that have shown a great deal of talent get second chances. Like when you mentioned how Andy Reid handled TO. TO went on to a bidding war and a massive contract after throwing a HUGE fit and being suspended. That's at an advanced age, and at a position that's not even nearly at the premium of a franchise QB.

This isn't about "who has to be right" this is about chilling the **** out until we actually know what's going on and not condemning the guy to ending his career at 33, like you've done, or a Brett Favre retirement scenario, like you've done, or suspended for conduct detrimental to the team, like you've done, or ruining his own value, like you've also done.

So relax.

Drek
03-12-2009, 12:46 PM
Ummmm no. And me saying that wasn't libel, I just can't envision anything you said coming to light.

People that have shown a great deal of talent get second chances. Like when you mentioned how Andy Reid handled TO. TO went on to a bidding war and a massive contract after throwing a HUGE fit and being suspended. That's at an advanced age, and at a position that's not even nearly at the premium of a franchise QB.

This isn't about "who has to be right" this is about chilling the **** out until we actually know what's going on and not condemning the guy to ending his career at 33, like you've done, or a Brett Favre retirement scenario, like you've done, or suspended for conduct detrimental to the team, like you've done, or ruining his own value, like you've also done.

So relax.

I'm entirely relaxed as I don't need to actually deal with any of this drama, I just like the Broncos so I enjoy keeping abreast of where the team is headed.

None of those things will definitely come to pass for Cutler, but he's in danger of any one or combination thereof if he doesn't show the level of maturity teams expect from him.

And the reference to TO, FYI Owens is probably the second best WR in NFL history behind Jerry Rice. He proved he was an elite player with big plays in the playoffs before he even left San Francisco. He then backed it up in Philly by finally getting the Eagles over the hump and actually to a SB. He then went to Dallas on a short money deal until he proved some reliability there (which he's since lost).

Jay Cutler and TO are worlds apart in the minds of EVERY NFL GM and that gap has a lot more to do with TO being a far better player relative to his position at any point up until the last two seasons or so than Jay Cutler has ever been. Extreme productivity always gets second chances, the amount of talent one possesses is irrelevant. Jay Cutler hasn't shown the kind of productivity that every front office in the NFL expects from a QB, that being wins.

And despite all that TO has probably cost himself nearly twice what he's currently made in the NFL, because if he showed some maturity he would have been the highest paid WR year after year for probably the last 8+ seasons, he's that good.

Its an enjoyable debate but in reality the Broncos hold 95% of the leverage here. Cutler has a little pull, but nothing very significant. If he doesn't get over his issues with the organization or at least play nice until they find good value for him, he's going to have his career railroaded, thats just how the league works. If you aren't an established elite player (which Cutler isn't) a team can railroad you with very little effort.

Drek
03-12-2009, 12:51 PM
Dude, WTF are you talking about? **** no they didn't know what they had. They drafted him in the 7th. Dude had not started a single game since HIGH SCHOOL....They drafted on potential alone...literally.

In fact, you're the one assuming you know more than the professionals here....I'm stating actual facts, dude. Cassel had no tape out of college, and McD mulled bringing him Denver. Why?

Oh, and who else do you think they have that they should have tagged instead of Cassel?

McDaniels considered bringing him here because he's worked with him for the last four or so years in New England and knows what he is, an efficient system QB.

You act like he's just some guy they picked up on a one year deal. They've had him on the roster for nearly half a decade now. They knew exactly what they had before Tom Brady ever got hurt and at that point they decided they wanted someone to replace him.

He happened to be needed last year and accumulated a lot of value, so the Pats made a move to make sure they got compensated for that new value. But if Brady never got hurt Cassel would've been allowed to walk, probably right out of the league, and Kevin O'Connell would be the new #2 in New England.

Cassel is grossly overrated and I'd be willing to bet McDaniels fully understands that. But Cassel plus multiple first day picks for Jay Cutler? That is a hell of a start to rebuilding the defense while keeping the offense respectable, so McDaniels can win soon while he drafts and grooms his real dream QB.

We've now signed Chris Simms, a similar "cog in the machine" QB, FYI, so all bets are off in terms of what the FO will do with a still petulant Cutler.

rad
03-12-2009, 01:23 PM
McDaniels considered bringing him here because he's worked with him for the last four or so years in New England and knows what he is, an efficient system QB.

You act like he's just some guy they picked up on a one year deal. They've had him on the roster for nearly half a decade now. They knew exactly what they had before Tom Brady ever got hurt and at that point they decided they wanted someone to replace him.

How did they know what they had?

I stated what they drafted him for. What has he done in 4 years on the Pats' roster? Nothing but practice. If you had a 26 year old 7th rd backup for a 32 year old HOF QB, with no games since high school, wouldn't you think it be a good time to bring in someone younger to back him up? By the time Brady's done, the new kid will still be relatively young, but have 4 years or so watching and learning from TB. Not too shabby.

Drek
03-12-2009, 01:30 PM
How did they know what they had?

I stated what they drafted him for. What has he done in 4 years on the Pats' roster? Nothing but practice. If you had a 26 year old 7th rd backup for a 32 year old HOF QB, with no games since high school, wouldn't you think it be a good time to bring in someone younger to back him up? By the time Brady's done, the new kid will still be relatively young, but have 4 years or so watching and learning from TB. Not too shabby.
They knew what they had because they had him in practice. That is the entire point of talent evaluation and having players compete for jobs in camp, when they're practicing. Because sound NFL minds can see the talent in a guy before he actually starts on Sundays and make the best decisions for their team well in advance.

Beantown Bronco
03-12-2009, 01:39 PM
They knew what they had because they had him in practice. That is the entire point of talent evaluation and having players compete for jobs in camp, when they're practicing. Because sound NFL minds can see the talent in a guy before he actually starts on Sundays and make the best decisions for their team well in advance.

The funny part was, he was absolutely HORRIBLE in the preseason last year. People were booing the crap out of him and were absolutely livid when he made it through all of the rounds of cuts. They couldn't imagine any scenario where he would even be on the team, much less remain the #2 after what he did last August.

Then Tom goes down and the same folks who would've been happy if they outright cut him last August were demanding AT LEAST two first rounders in a trade for him just two weeks ago......

rad
03-12-2009, 01:57 PM
The funny part was, he was absolutely HORRIBLE in the preseason last year. People were booing the crap out of him and were absolutely livid when he made it through all of the rounds of cuts. They couldn't imagine any scenario where he would even be on the team, much less remain the #2 after what he did last August.

Then Tom goes down and the same folks who would've been happy if they outright cut him last August were demanding AT LEAST two first rounders in a trade for him just two weeks ago......

Yeah, I remember that. How did Guiterrez (sp) look?

I also laugh at folks who say Cassel has a noodle arm.....

DrFate
03-12-2009, 01:59 PM
Aaron Curry is as close as it gets to a sure thing standout LB and he'd be teaming with a great LB coach in Nolan. He'd quickly become not just the face of the defense, but the face of the franchise and would reshape this organization in a very positive way.

Is he worth the $30+ MIL in guaranteed dollars?

Drek
03-12-2009, 02:12 PM
Is he worth the $30+ MIL in guaranteed dollars?

Why not? He plays a tough to fill position in the 3-4 (SOLB) and he gives you every single thing you'd want out of a guy in that position.

How much would Adalius Thomas sign for in today's inflated market? Because with Aaron Curry you're getting someone just about as versatile and he isn't going to take a few years to get up to speed like Thomas did, he'll be a pro-bowler from day one.

DBBBSBS
03-12-2009, 03:23 PM
Cutler for the #1 and #20?

Lemme think about it.

Tell your friend.. and all of DET.

CUTLER for there #1 and Calvin Johnson. Signed and Delivered.

Bob
03-12-2009, 06:07 PM
I cant think of anyone except Hitler that I hate enough to trade to Detriot, oh, and Foster.

Needa Pass Rush
03-12-2009, 07:03 PM
Purely out of curiosity. Again, I'm hoping he stays... but I just ran into a Detroit fan here at work. He said to me in the hall.... "Cutler and your #12 for the #1."

I laughed, then thought about it... would Detroit trade us straight across?

He says no. Of course, fans always overvalue their players and draft picks, but I wonder what the real value was.

I asked him why he thought Cutler wasn't worth the #1 after coming off of a Pro Bowl and he said "it looks like you have a malcontent on your hands."


What do you think? What's Cutler worth at this point... in reality, not homer-land... reality?

Sure, let's convert a pro bowl QB into an unproven NFL talent that will cost a boat-load to get under contract.

Honestly, you don't trade Jay for less the (2) #1's.... and another day one pick... given the value of a franchise QB. Sounds about right.

Popps
03-12-2009, 07:14 PM
Sure, let's convert a pro bowl QB into an unproven NFL talent that will cost a boat-load to get under contract.

Honestly, you don't trade Jay for less the (2) #1's.... and another day one pick... given the value of a franchise QB. Sounds about right.

NPR, I'm not saying we should do it. In fact, I'm on record as saying I hope we work this out and keep him. I'm talking about possible case scenarios.

Right now, I guarantee you Detroit wouldn't give us that first rounder, the more I think this through and look at how this is being perceived around the league.

I highly doubt Cutler would return two #1's at this point, unless they were low #1's.

I think he's significantly damaged his own value.

Needa Pass Rush
03-12-2009, 09:23 PM
NPR, I'm not saying we should do it. In fact, I'm on record as saying I hope we work this out and keep him. I'm talking about possible case scenarios.

Right now, I guarantee you Detroit wouldn't give us that first rounder, the more I think this through and look at how this is being perceived around the league.

I highly doubt Cutler would return two #1's at this point, unless they were low #1's.

I think he's significantly damaged his own value.

I know you are just throwing it out there, Popps and I didn't read past your initial post in this tread. I'm sure my last post seems out of place after 5 pages of debate.

You may be right about Jay's value being hurt, but if I can't get a couple of high value trade components in return, I walk away if I'm McNewbie.