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View Full Version : Pros: "Cutler aloof... why the sense of entitlement?"


Popps
03-11-2009, 01:15 AM
Two former Champions, one Bronco... just a couple more to add to the list of people saying the same thing...

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Mr Chatterboodamn
03-11-2009, 04:57 AM
In retirement, Johnny Unitas said, "You're not an NFL quarterback until you can tell your coach to go to hell!"

I would think this would especially apply to insecure 32-year old Napoleonic-complexed coaches.

Sorry, Popps, please continue to fellate the corporate pudding pop.

Rohirrim
03-11-2009, 05:53 AM
Hopefully, Jay has ears to hear the veterans.

ol number 7
03-11-2009, 06:01 AM
Hopefully, Jay has ears to hear the veterans.

Brilliantly stated Stink!! Jay is proving everything that Rivers and the Chargers say about him is 100% correct. PUNK !!!
Put your pink towel over your head and "lay low " for a while.

theAPAOps5
03-11-2009, 06:05 AM
I always wonder why people video tape the TV for youtube.

alkemical
03-11-2009, 06:18 AM
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/amesj523/emojaycutler.jpg

NFLBRONCO
03-11-2009, 06:24 AM
Jay Champ Bailey was traded

AT least ESPN talks about the Broncos now WOO HOO.

alkemical
03-11-2009, 06:28 AM
Jay Champ Bailey was traded

AT least ESPN talks about the Broncos now WOO HOO.

Bailey was tradeD?

Dedhed
03-11-2009, 06:33 AM
In retirement, Johnny Unitas said, "You're not an NFL quarterback until you can tell your coach to go to hell!"

I would think this would especially apply to insecure 32-year old Napoleonic-complexed coaches.

Sorry, Popps, please continue to fellate the corporate pudding pop.

It also implies that you need to EARN that rite. Otherwise you're just Ryan Leaf, Jeff George, and a hundreed other talents that amounted to nothing because they refused to accept that they weren't the entire show.

oubronco
03-11-2009, 07:22 AM
Jay Champ Bailey was traded

AT least ESPN talks about the Broncos now WOO HOO.

WTF?

Conklin
03-11-2009, 07:58 AM
WTF?

he was saying even Champ Bailey was traded(back from the WA days) just saying regardless how good you are, if you can make the team better, ya gotta trade

worm
03-11-2009, 09:01 AM
There were even more people talking about how Elway was a puss for not playing for the Colts liar, Bob Irsay.

People for years disparaged Elway over the sense of entitlement he felt after accomplishing NOTHING at Stanford (no bowl game). He felt he could dictate where he went regardless of the draft, NFL process et al. Not only did he get his way. It change the course of two franchises for decades.

To me this is not a black and white issue. There is culpability on both sides.
However, I have no idea why people feel the need to throw a clip of ESPN talking heads when trying to defend their point? As if the fact that Mark says something makes it more valid. Opinions are like assholes.

Northman
03-11-2009, 09:07 AM
There were even more people talking about how Elway was a puss for not playing for the Colts

Oh, i can assure you nothing has changed much. They still hate John to this very day.

Dudeskey
03-11-2009, 09:13 AM
In retirement, Johnny Unitas said, "You're not an NFL quarterback until you can tell your coach to go to hell!"

I would think this would especially apply to insecure 32-year old Napoleonic-complexed coaches.

Sorry, Popps, please continue to fellate the corporate pudding pop.

Dude, he even basically told Bowlen to go to hell after blowing off his phone calls...

Popps
03-11-2009, 09:29 AM
In retirement, Johnny Unitas said, "You're not an NFL quarterback until you can tell your coach to go to hell!"

I would think this would especially apply to insecure 32-year old Napoleonic-complexed coaches.

Yea, because Cutler is Johnny Unitas.

:rofl:

I love this place. It's like Lifetime Network and Comedy Central combined.

Hulamau
03-11-2009, 09:34 AM
Two former Champions, one Bronco... just a couple more to add to the list of people saying the same thing...

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I love common sense like Schlereth and Trent Dilfer just shared .. smells like ...Victory! :-)

Kid A
03-11-2009, 09:42 AM
In retirement, Johnny Unitas said, "You're not an NFL quarterback until you can tell your coach to go to hell!"

I would think this would especially apply to insecure 32-year old Napoleonic-complexed coaches.

It's not a "Napoleonic-complex" for an NFL coach to--gasp--think they have the power to make major personnel decisions and shape the team. It's the job he was hired to do. Bowlen didn't say "make some minor changes, but don't rock the boat too much." He told him to instill his vision and make it happen.

You hate the direction McDaniels is going? That's completely legitimate on your part, but that doesn't make what he is doing a power trip. Almost every NFL analyst and veteran that has spoken on the subject has sided with the coaches because they understand how things work in the NFL. Doesn't mean you have to think he's being smart or wise, but it doesn't take a raging ego to want players to follow your system if you're an NFL coach.

BroncoInferno
03-11-2009, 09:48 AM
However, I have no idea why people feel the need to throw a clip of ESPN talking heads when trying to defend their point? As if the fact that Mark says something makes it more valid. Opinions are like a-holes.

Some opinions are more informed than others. In this case, you have two former NFL players--two guys universally considered classy, team guys--who say Jay needs to get over his sense of entitlement. Sharpe and Jaws have said similar things in recent days. It kind of gives you insight into what guys in our own locker room may be thinking. I have a suspicion that a lot of guys are none too pleased with Jay's above-the-team attitude.

Popps
03-11-2009, 09:49 AM
Some opinions are more informed than others. In this case, you have two former NFL players--two guys universally considered classy, team guys--who say Jay needs to get over his sense of entitlement. Sharpe and Jaws have said similar things in recent days. It kind of gives you insight into what guys in our own locker room may be thinking. I have a suspicion that a lot of guys are none too pleased with Jay's above-the-team attitude.

There's a poll around here that's fairly split on what the locker room thinks. I voted that it's probably split, but I have to wonder.

The old pros are all telling Jay the same thing, but Jay is just too smart to listen.

Old No. 7
03-11-2009, 09:55 AM
Your Head Coach wants my Quarterback; that will never NOT be hilarious.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 10:03 AM
It's not a "Napoleonic-complex" for an NFL coach to--gasp--think they have the power to make major personnel decisions and shape the team. It's the job he was hired to do. Bowlen didn't say "make some minor changes, but don't rock the boat too much." He told him to instill his vision and make it happen.

You hate the direction McDaniels is going? That's completely legitimate on your part, but that doesn't make what he is doing a power trip. Almost every NFL analyst and veteran that has spoken on the subject has sided with the coaches because they understand how things work in the NFL. Doesn't mean you have to think he's being smart or wise, but it doesn't take a raging ego to want players to follow your system if you're an NFL coach.

Not entirely true. Many coaches in the league DON'T have the power to make major personnel changes. Shanny DID, and that is one reason he's gone. Sparky was brought in to COACH the players on the field. This guy Xanders was brought in to run the FO. Sure coaches have say in the personnel, how much depends on the situation.

Br0nc0Buster
03-11-2009, 10:07 AM
I think Jay is being immature, but I think it is unfair to bash him for what the Broncos record has been with him as the starter.

We had the worst defense I have ever seen last year, withouth Jay we would not of even been competitive.

This Tradegate fiasco is clouding people's judgements a bit I think

DrFate
03-11-2009, 10:15 AM
Why does any player have a sense of entitlement? Why does any person?

I am pretty good at my job. If I heard the boss was looking to replace me with some guy off the street without my experience or education (my skillz), I'd be pretty peeved too. Sure it's his deal, and sure I can go somewhere else. But I'd be really confused as to why you want to replace me with some second hand guy who has never been 'the guy'.

The closest NFL parallel I can draw from existing NFL teams is this. Drew Brees is a good QB, puts up gaudy numbers, has never won diddle. Not because he isn't a good player (cause he is) but cause everyone needs help to win.

If a coach went to the Saints and the first real move was to trade Brees for a lifetime backup, there would be backlash. The players have committed to Brees, the city has committed to Brees. They have been looking for a solid player at that position for a long time. It isn't 'we were bowled over by the offer', it is 'I'd rather have the lifetime backup than Brees'.

If somebody came to Denver and offered every draft pick for the next 5 years for Cutler, I'm sure they'd listen. But that wasn't the situation here. Somebody (Sparky, Xanders, Bowlen) preferred a lifetime backup to Cutler. The fact that this move was considered makes me question the leadership on this team, after being a fan for 22 years. I can't figure out how it improves a team that has a really good offense (even with zero talent at RB, except Hillis) and an abomindable defense.

Popps
03-11-2009, 10:21 AM
If somebody came to Denver and offered every draft pick for the next 5 years for Cutler, I'm sure they'd listen. But that wasn't the situation here. Somebody (Sparky, Xanders, Bowlen) preferred a lifetime backup to Cutler. The fact that this move was considered makes me question the leadership on this team, after being a fan for 22 years. I can't figure out how it improves a team that has a really good offense (even with zero talent at RB, except Hillis) and an abomindable defense.

Again, that's baseless speculation on your part, and a false premise.

Jay Cutler was offended by the VERY IDEA that he could be traded.

So, you're missing the point here, as well as basing your argument on what you HOPE to be true, not the actual stories that are being reported.

Old No. 7
03-11-2009, 10:32 AM
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn182/lightbringerrr/437474442_t220.jpg

Misses his Shannahan Blanky.

worm
03-11-2009, 10:35 AM
Jay Cutler was offended by the VERY IDEA that he could be traded.


Incorrect.

Rabb
03-11-2009, 10:36 AM
Incorrect.

Seriously?

None of us know for sure, but it sure seems like that was the case more and more every day otherwise he would be over this.

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 10:45 AM
Jay has a sense of entitlement because he's a franchise quarterback. He is entitled to respect as the face of the team on and off the field. And I want nothing less than a confident, poised gunslinger mentality in Jay.

But now he's been lied to and disrespected by this punk who's been given WAY too much power for a 33-year-old offensive coordinator.

Pioli didn't want him as coach.

Belichick screwed him over on Cassel.

Jay has never been a problem before.

But now we're supposed to side with Josh over Jay?


Not me, bub.
.

Popps
03-11-2009, 10:45 AM
Incorrect.

Read his quotes. He all but says it. Every indication from his wording is that he wants some sort of in-stone promise from the team about his future.

But, he only plays for his teammates, anyway. Not the coaches.

Hilarious!

DrFate
03-11-2009, 10:46 AM
Again, that's baseless speculation on your part, and a false premise.

It is my conclusion, yes.

Jay Cutler was offended by the VERY IDEA that he could be traded.

And that is based on YOUR speculation.

I simply do not believe that teams call the Colts all the time asking for Manning, or the Saints all the time asking for Brees, or (insert quality QB/franchise here). To simply accept that out of hand, I believe, is a bit naive and driking the Sparky-colored Kool-Aid.

Is it possible? Sure. Does it get to the point of a three-team trade with specifics of draft positions? I don't believe it does. The reaction from Sparky and the FO, I believe, is telling. There was silence for a while, and then there was, in my view, a weak resonse. ALL they had to do was hold a press conference and release a statement saying Jay was the guy, and it all dies down. Instead, Sparky was MIA and the rumors were allowed to grow.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 10:49 AM
Read his quotes. He all but says it. Every indication from his wording is that he wants some sort of in-stone promise from the team about his future.

That is your interpretation of the quotes. And that's fine - I don't interpet them that way. If someone has an actualy quote (with a link) of something to that end, please post it.

Drek
03-11-2009, 10:50 AM
Incorrect.

His comments of "you don't hear Peyton or Eli getting mentioned in trades!" sure sounded like it. He's never commented on the supposed compensation, just the fact that they even considered it.

TonyR
03-11-2009, 10:51 AM
Jay making the Pro Bowl last year was probably not a good thing. He now fashions himself a "Pro Bowl QB" even though this designation really doesn't mean anything coupled with the fact that he didn't belong in the game.

If Jay is a "franchise QB" he'll shut up, show up to work on Monday, get to work, and lead by example. If he doesn't do all of these things he'll lose even more credibility and earn every bit of his bad reputation.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 10:54 AM
His comments of "you don't hear Peyton or Eli getting mentioned in trades!" sure sounded like it. He's never commented on the supposed compensation, just the fact that they even considered it.

I guess my response is - was Cutler actually wrong in that statement? Do we hear trade rumors about Manning or Brees or Palmer?

Kaylore
03-11-2009, 11:00 AM
This is just going to get worse for Cutler. More and more people are going to see his behavior as immature and mention it. Eventually some of the eternal apologists over here will even begin to turn.

Stink and Trent Dilfer. Who's next? How many other men who are/were professionals have spoken out saying Jay is in the right? None. Because he's not and no one feels sorry for him.

Old No. 7
03-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Jay has a sense of entitlement because he's a franchise quarterback. He is entitled to respect as the face of the team on and off the field. And I want nothing less than a confident, poised gunslinger mentality in Jay.

But now he's been lied to and disrespected by this punk who's been given WAY too much power for a 33-year-old offensive coordinator.

Pioli didn't want him as coach.

Belichick screwed him over on Cassel.

Jay has never been a problem before.

But now we're supposed to side with Josh over Jay?


Not me, bub.
.
Hilarious! Hilarious! Ohhhhh; keep feedin' that ego BB; keep disharmony alive!LOL

Drek
03-11-2009, 11:00 AM
Jay has a sense of entitlement because he's a franchise quarterback. He is entitled to respect as the face of the team on and off the field. And I want nothing less than a confident, poised gunslinger mentality in Jay.
Then maybe he shouldn't be the face of the franchise anymore. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning approach every practice like they're earning a job. It spreads accountability throughout the roster. Jay is now bristling under that same burden.

But now he's been lied to and disrespected by this punk who's been given WAY too much power for a 33-year-old offensive coordinator.
When did he lie? No one can ever back this up with a rational timetable. He told Cutler he was the guy and looked forward to working with him when he [McDaniels] first came to Denver. Since then all he's done was listen to some offers that the Broncos never actually moved forward on, and when most recently he talked to Cutler he reiterated that Jay was his guy, but that no one was untradeable if it made the team better. So where's the lie? He's being completely honest as far as I can see. Did they want to trade him? No. Did they listen to offers? Yes. If the offers would've been a step towards making the team better would they have taken it? Yes. But they didn't.

Belichick screwed him over on Cassel.
And your proof of this is? ESPN might like that kind of vacuous reporting to create drama, but the more legit sources (i.e. Shefter) say the Broncos never agreed to a deal with anyone for Cutler.

Also, McDaniels picked a QB in last year's draft that the Pats took in the 3rd round. He was going to be Cassel's replacement. Yet somehow people think McDaniels is enamored with Cassel, even though he helped bring in the guy's replacement in NE.

Jay has never been a problem before.
Really? Sulking during losses, making asinine comments about his arm being stronger than Elways, guaranteeing a playoff birth and then choking the last three games? Those weren't problems? Well, I guess they weren't in the respect that Shanahan was willing to put up with it all as he catered to Jay's ego.

I side with the franchise over any player, and Cutler's actions put him against the franchise, not just McDaniels, or Xanders, but against the entire organization. He said as much when he said he plays for his teammates, not his coaches. Thats great if you do, but you sure as hell don't vocalize it to a media outlet. He further proved it with how willing he was to air organizational dirty laundry in public through multiple media interviews while at the same time refusing to speak with the organization itself.

He's putting himself before the team and I'm a fan of the team. So why would I side with Cutler?

DrFate
03-11-2009, 11:06 AM
Tom Brady and Peyton Manning approach every practice like they're earning a job. It spreads accountability throughout the roster. Jay is now bristling under that same burden.

Isn't he simply looking for the same 'respect' that those guys get? I don't really understand the venom for this guy...

Popps
03-11-2009, 11:07 AM
It is my conclusion, yes.

And that is based on YOUR speculation.
.

Absolutely, and I've made it clear that in no way do I claim to know the facts, as they simply aren't available for public consumption.

Your post stated...

But that wasn't the situation here. Somebody (Sparky, Xanders, Bowlen) preferred a lifetime backup to Cutler.

Inherent in that comment is that you KNOW what the situation was... and you don't. You also assume Cassel to be a "lifetime back-up," something most NFL scouts seem to disagree with you on, including one of the best GMs in the game.

My point was just that it's one thing to have an opinion based on conjecture, it's another to speak as if you were in the room.

Old No. 7
03-11-2009, 11:10 AM
Does Jay like Canadian beer? He should develop a taste for it. I hear Casey Printer's old CFL team is looking for a QB.

tsiguy96
03-11-2009, 11:10 AM
ive watched NFL network, espn, listened to sirius radio, and its pretty much a consensus thought amongst all these guys (as well as a lot of internet writers as well): mcdaniels and xanders could have handled the situation better, however jay cutler is really blowing this up big time, and he has no right to do so. he does not have the right to be a baby about this, he is only a fourth year player, he has not accomplished enough in the NFL to be so pissed that he was subject to trade talks. its nearly unanimous with non-fans that jay cutler is being ridiculous about this.

Rohirrim
03-11-2009, 11:11 AM
Isn't he simply looking for the same 'respect' that those guys get? I don't really understand the venom for this guy...

Hilarious! What has Jay Cutler ever done to earn the respect that Brady and Manning get? Try not to forget this very important point: Brady and Manning "earned" that respect.

Popps
03-11-2009, 11:13 AM
Jay has a sense of entitlement because he's a franchise quarterback.

Really?

How many playoff games has he won? How many winning seasons has he had?

Sure, it's a team game and his team didn't help him much, but I'll guaran-****ing-tee you John Elway gets this team into the playoffs las year. Elway would have willed us to wins in one of those games. We probably would have still gotten blown up in the playoffs, but I'll guarantee you Elway doesn't throw picks in the endzone the way Cutler did.

But, THAT my friend, is an opinion. Just an opinion... based on 30+ years of watching this game and watching every snap that both of these QBs have taken.

To me, "franchise" implies that you've done something. Jay has put up some nice stats and sneaked in the back door to a Pro Bowl. He's also been widely criticized for his attitude. (See yet more pros in video above.)

So, why don't all of these pros think he's a "franchise" QB?

Even if they DO think he is one, or has the potential... almost all of these pros seem to think Jay needs to grow up and handle this like a man.

Popps
03-11-2009, 11:15 AM
Hilarious! What has Jay Cutler ever done to earn the respect that Brady and Manning get? Try not to forget this very important point: Brady and Manning "earned" that respect.

Bingo.

People around here seem to be under the mistaken impression that physical skill makes you a franchise QB, automatically.

I won't even bother listing 100 exceptions to that rule... but I could.

Rabb
03-11-2009, 11:15 AM
Isn't he simply looking for the same 'respect' that those guys get? I don't really understand the venom for this guy...

that's easy to get...

1. win
2. stop bitching
3. $$$

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:16 AM
lol you guys mis the big picture and so does the the ESPEN guys


Coach what coach he has yet to begin coaching . so far he has yet to get into a room with his players . coach o man that is rich......

theAPAOps5
03-11-2009, 11:17 AM
Isn't he simply looking for the same 'respect' that those guys get? I don't really understand the venom for this guy...

You just defined Jay Cutlers problem. He thinks a pro-bowl nomination puts him on the same level with these guys. When in reality he barely makes it to the tier below them at this point in his career.

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:18 AM
this whole thing has yet to see a coach.

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:18 AM
You just defined Jay Cutlers problem. He thinks a pro-bowl nomination puts him on the same level with these guys. When in reality he barely makes it to the tier below them at this point in his career.


No he has yet to see a coach that is the problem .

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:20 AM
A coach would of put his QB to work !

outdoor_miner
03-11-2009, 11:20 AM
And I want nothing less than a confident, poised gunslinger mentality in Jay.]

Yeah, me too... That's why it's very unfortunate that he's not acting anything like the leader you describe.

theAPAOps5
03-11-2009, 11:20 AM
No he has yet to see a coach that is the problem .

I know what you said you have said that 3 times now. Just because you repeat yourself it doesn't mean you are right.

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:24 AM
A coach would of told all his players you are here next year and put that player in the best position to succeed that the ones changing positions would start now with there coaches .

QB 's should be helping out with the draft . busy work and helping learn the new system it is called team and as so a part of "it" .

BroncoInferno
03-11-2009, 11:26 AM
A coach would of put his QB to work !

Are you drinking this early? There is nothing resembling coherency in that series of posts you just spewed.

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:27 AM
I know what you said you have said that 3 times now. Just because you repeat yourself it doesn't mean you are right.

So you like the sparing on RMN much better . brilliant:strong:

theAPAOps5
03-11-2009, 11:30 AM
So you like the sparing on RMN much better . brilliant:strong:

WTF are you talking about?

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:30 AM
So you call McD the coach ? right


I keep seeing player say nope I have not talked to the coach.

Dedhed
03-11-2009, 11:33 AM
I guess my response is - was Cutler actually wrong in that statement? Do we hear trade rumors about Manning or Brees or Palmer?

Every QB Cutler mentioned in his quote had a SB ring. Cutler doesn't have a playoff appearance. That's pretty much the definition of unfounded entitlement.

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:39 AM
WTF are you talking about?

the QB and the Coach are talking to the press not each other .

The Coach's job is to coach. he has yet to talk and get these guys involved . so up to this point I see only GM from him, and as a GM not so good . he cannot even make a GM slam dunk deal .

this is his first Coaching gig and he has went how many weeks with out telling players how and what he expects ?

I keep seeing people talking like McD is the Coach when most of the players have no clue as to what this coach want's ! that would take face time and meetings. as of right now ...fail

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:42 AM
Every QB Cutler mentioned in his quote had a SB ring. Cutler doesn't have a playoff appearance. That's pretty much the definition of unfounded entitlement.

So now you are the Coach and you want your players to fall into line what do should you do ?


these are hard players to come by ...:sunshine:

Dedhed
03-11-2009, 11:43 AM
the QB and the Coach are talking to the press not each other .

The Coach's job is to coach. he has yet to talk and get these guys involved . so up to this point I see only GM from him, and as a GM not so good . he cannot even make a GM slam dunk deal .

this is his first Coaching gig and he has went how many weeks with out telling players how and what he expects ?

I keep seeing people talking like McD is the Coach when most of the players have no clue as to what this coach want's ! that would take face time and meetings. as of right now ...fail

So you're saying he should call them all in during their vacation time? I'm sure the players would love that.

Dedhed
03-11-2009, 11:45 AM
So now you are the Coach and you want your players to fall into line what do should you do ?


these are hard players to come by ...:sunshine:

No they're not. SB Champions are full of them.

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:45 AM
So you're saying he should call them all in during their vacation time? I'm sure the players would love that.

yep that is what I am saying. the day he was hired took controle . it is his team .

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:46 AM
meetings are your job as a pro.

theAPAOps5
03-11-2009, 11:49 AM
the QB and the Coach are talking to the press not each other .

The Coach's job is to coach. he has yet to talk and get these guys involved . so up to this point I see only GM from him, and as a GM not so good . he cannot even make a GM slam dunk deal .

this is his first Coaching gig and he has went how many weeks with out telling players how and what he expects ?

I keep seeing people talking like McD is the Coach when most of the players have no clue as to what this coach want's ! that would take face time and meetings. as of right now ...fail


Ok I see your point. but its difficult when a coach tries to call his player and he won't answer. He won't even answer for the owner.

Dedhed
03-11-2009, 11:52 AM
meetings are your job as a pro.

You're completely naive if you think calling players to report to dove Valley during these last couple of months would have gone over like anything but a lead balloon.

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:53 AM
he had a chance to hit the ground running with his players he needs to let them know how they stand nothing wrong with telling the the Truth .

He needs to get control of his players now and this should be easy and still can be easy .but this back biting has not worked .

They need to get Cutler to work ASP. A simple call telling him that they want him breaking down film will end all this child play .

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:55 AM
Ok I see your point. but its difficult when a coach tries to call his player and he won't answer. He won't even answer for the owner.

well then leave a message that they want him to start breaking down film . and that they want him to help with the draft . he will listen to that .

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 11:57 AM
Ok I see your point. but its difficult when a coach tries to call his player and he won't answer. He won't even answer for the owner.

Also ApaOps cutler will make how much less then his back up this year ?

theAPAOps5
03-11-2009, 11:59 AM
Also ApaOps cutler will make how much less then his back up this year ?

He is still playing on his rookie contract. Thats not Chris Simms fault.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 12:09 PM
Absolutely, and I've made it clear that in no way do I claim to know the facts, as they simply aren't available for public consumption.

Your post stated...

But that wasn't the situation here. Somebody (Sparky, Xanders, Bowlen) preferred a lifetime backup to Cutler.

Inherent in that comment is that you KNOW what the situation was... and you don't. You also assume Cassel to be a "lifetime back-up," something most NFL scouts seem to disagree with you on, including one of the best GMs in the game.

My point was just that it's one thing to have an opinion based on conjecture, it's another to speak as if you were in the room.

I've been pretty clear on the fact that I wasn't in the room, and everything any of us say is, pretty much by default, speculation. I can't seriously conclude that teams, out of the blue, start calling Denver and offering picks (specific picks in a three team trade) for Cutler. I just can't. I'm not saying it didn't happen. I simply won't believe that until someone comes forward with more than conjecture.

I don't assume anything about Cassel. Cassel IS a lifetime backup. It a fact. Dude couldn't even start in college. He was moved to TE. If he was a world beater, he would have transfered to some school where he would be on the field. He was nearly cut this past offseason by the Pats.

'Most NFL scouts' is conjecture on your part. Nobody has any hard numbers on the overall opinion of this guy - again, if they exist, I'd love to see them. I know one thing for a fact - the Pats got only a 2nd round pick for the guy + Vrabel. If 'most NFL scouts' thought he was a pro bowl type player, they would have gotten more. I'm pretty comfortable with that conclusion.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 12:10 PM
Hilarious! What has Jay Cutler ever done to earn the respect that Brady and Manning get? Try not to forget this very important point: Brady and Manning "earned" that respect.

How much respect does he deserve? If not what Manning/Brady get, as much as Brees? As much as Carson Palmer? As much as Sage Rosenfelds?

azbroncfan
03-11-2009, 12:12 PM
Jay making the Pro Bowl last year was probably not a good thing. He now fashions himself a "Pro Bowl QB" even though this designation really doesn't mean anything coupled with the fact that he didn't belong in the game.

.

Exactly, Kordell Stewart was a probowl QB too.

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 12:15 PM
How much respect does he deserve? If not what Manning/Brady get, as much as Brees? As much as Carson Palmer? As much as Sage Rosenfelds?

who cares about all the BS .

Cutler is our QB . now the Coach needs to become coach simple as that .

DrFate
03-11-2009, 12:15 PM
Every QB Cutler mentioned in his quote had a SB ring. Cutler doesn't have a playoff appearance. That's pretty much the definition of unfounded entitlement.

His quote was all of 2 QBs. Suppose he said 'Drew and Carson' instead. Is your feeling different?

Rohirrim
03-11-2009, 12:16 PM
How much respect does he deserve? If not what Manning/Brady get, as much as Brees? As much as Carson Palmer? As much as Sage Rosenfelds?

Who, exactly, has disrespected Cutler? The Broncos? Why? Because they entertained the possibility of trading him? Since when is that a sign of disrespect?

DrFate
03-11-2009, 12:21 PM
Who, exactly, has disrespected Cutler? The Broncos? Why? Because they entertained the possibility of trading him? Since when is that a sign of disrespect?

I don't think the team simply entertaining the possibility is disrespect. (Cutler may have, I have no idea)

I don't think they entertained it. I think they initiated it. (and yes, it is certainly speculation on my part). As I told Popps, I simply don't think that NE and Tampa got together, came up with the details of a three-way deal, and THEN called the Broncos.

I think if that had happened Sparky and Bowlen and Xanders would have come out immediately and said 'we got a call, we got an offer, Jay is our guy, we said no'. That didn't happen. I think their response was a vote of no confidence in the guy. And no one here knows what Sparky said to Cutler before all this. If Sparky says 'you are my guy' and THEN this happens, he lied to Cutler. I'd be pissed too.

Rohirrim
03-11-2009, 12:24 PM
I haven't seen a single shred of evidence from anybody, including Shefter, who broke the story, that the Broncos initiated any of this. In fact, Shefter stated that the Broncos did not initiate trade talks. So your speculation is totally baseless, as is your charge that the Broncos have somehow disrespected Jay.
:bs:

Bronco Yoda
03-11-2009, 12:30 PM
It is my conclusion, yes.



And that is based on YOUR speculation.

I simply do not believe that teams call the Colts all the time asking for Manning, or the Saints all the time asking for Brees, or (insert quality QB/franchise here). To simply accept that out of hand, I believe, is a bit naive and driking the Sparky-colored Kool-Aid.

Is it possible? Sure. Does it get to the point of a three-team trade with specifics of draft positions? I don't believe it does. The reaction from Sparky and the FO, I believe, is telling. There was silence for a while, and then there was, in my view, a weak resonse. ALL they had to do was hold a press conference and release a statement saying Jay was the guy, and it all dies down. Instead, Sparky was MIA and the rumors were allowed to grow.

Why wouldn't teams call?

Seriously....now just try and be open minded for a moment and look at this from all angles.

All teams keep a close eye on each other, their movements, players, etc.

As soon as Shanahan was fired, blood was in the water and sharks would begin to circle as is always the case.

Then the inevitable coaching staff gutting begins where Cutlers QB coach and friend gets canned.

Then you have reports that Cutler is not happy at all and if you believe some, even asked to be traded...

....and you think this wouldn't set off a firestorm within a tight knit group like the NFL is?

So you have Teams looking for franchise QB's that see Cutler not very happy at all. Is this enough to start a Cutler frenzy? Probably not.... but as we all no the scenario hasn't even begun to play out yet.

Cutler gets a new coach, a rookie coach. And this rookie coach's QB just so happens to be landing on the market and is the flavor of the month.


...and people here think that seasoned professionals who's job it is to build teams can't connect the dot's here??????

For the sake of this argument here I'm not concerned with if it was right or wrong to listen, or how far the Broncos actually took trade negotiations.... but IMO it would be really naive to think that teams wouldn't be jockeying for different angles for different trades. IT'S THEIR JOB.

I think we'd all be surprised if we actually knew of all the trade offers and 'ideas' constantly floated around between GM's.

Hulamau
03-11-2009, 12:31 PM
Also ApaOps cutler will make how much less then his back up this year ?

Cutler already got paid the lion's share of his contract which is for 6 years .. not just three ... and now it is beginning to look like he is angling to reup now with someone else.

Meetings with all the players start this Monday, that s been known since day one of his hiring. that is when the new system is lkaid down for the team as a whole. He has already met with those players who have come to Denver, Stokley , Cutler, Marshall, Clady, Polumbus etc and spoekn to many others on teh phone. Wit hCutler he has met for the last few weeks, no doubt breaking down film as they reviewed how the new offense works etc etc.

Cutler has no excuse now for his behavior. He has through Monday to get a brain transplant ... or more accurately a HEART transplant ... and get it screwed on straight this time.

Hulamau
03-11-2009, 12:34 PM
Why wouldn't teams call?

Seriously....now just try and be open minded for a moment and look at this from all angles.

All teams keep a close eye on each other, their movements, players, etc.

As soon as Shanahan was fired, blood was in the water and sharks would begin to circle as is always the case.

Then the inevitable coaching staff gutting begins where Cutlers QB coach and friend gets canned.

Then you have reports that Cutler is not happy at all and if you believe some, even asked to be traded...

....and you think this wouldn't set off a firestorm within a tight knit group like the NFL is?

So you have Teams looking for franchise QB's that see Cutler not very happy at all. Is this enough to start a Cutler frenzy? Probably not.... but as we all no the scenario hasn't even begun to play out yet.

Cutler gets a new coach, a rookie coach. And this rookie coach's QB just so happens to be landing on the market and is the flavor of the month.


...and people here think that seasoned professionals who's job it is to build teams can't connect the dot's here??????

For the sake of this argument here I'm not concerned with if it was right or wrong to listen, or how far the Broncos actually took trade negotiations.... but IMO it would be really naive to think that teams wouldn't be jockeying for different angles for different trades. IT'S THEIR JOB.

I think we'd all be surprised if we actually knew of all the trade offers and 'ideas' constantly floated around between GM's.

Exactly so.....

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 12:40 PM
Exactly, Kordell Stewart was a probowl QB too.

oh my you seem to stuck in the rudder well stay there but you will drown .:sunshine:

~Crash~
03-11-2009, 12:44 PM
all the BS but in the end you will be in your seats and high fiveing every smuck that will high five you when cutler throws a huge TD pass .

Pony Boy
03-11-2009, 12:44 PM
You just defined Jay Cutlers problem. He thinks a pro-bowl nomination puts him on the same level with these guys. When in reality he barely makes it to the tier below them at this point in his career.

BINGO!! You nailed it. Neither one of these guy's will be able to find big enough helmet's this season.

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 12:53 PM
Then maybe he shouldn't be the face of the franchise anymore. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning approach every practice like they're earning a job. It spreads accountability throughout the roster. Jay is now bristling under that same burden.

He's putting himself before the team and I'm a fan of the team. So why would I side with Cutler?
You make some good points ... but I disagree with the Manning and Brady. Both those franchises have competent, experienced front offices that would've been way out ahead of this. They would have communicated and discussed first ... Peyton and Tom would NOT have been left out in the cold, hearing new crazy rumors every day. They would have been treated with the respect they deserve for their importance to the franchise.

Drek, I should think you would agree with me that the roles are being all botched up here. McDaniels is way too inexperienced to have all this power and wear all these hats, there can be no doubt that his inexperience there contributed greatly to this fiasco. He's a 33-year-old COORDINATOR who was probably overrated, in that he came from the most successful dynasty in decades.

Should we have done the trade - Cassel, #1 and #20? Yes. But it didn't happen and it's time to roll out the red carpet and bring Jay in - let him save some face. That conference call sounds like it was a major fiasco, and Josh is to blame imo.

Jay is one of maybe 50 people on Earth that can do his job .... if you need to coddle his ego, you do it. For the good of the team.
.

alkemical
03-11-2009, 01:04 PM
You make some good points ... but I disagree with the Manning and Brady. Both those franchises have competent, experienced front offices that would've been way out ahead of this. They would have communicated and discussed first ... Peyton and Tom would NOT have been left out in the cold, hearing new crazy rumors every day. They would have been treated with the respect they deserve for their importance to the franchise.

Drek, I should think you would agree with me that the roles are being all botched up here. McDaniels is way too inexperienced to have all this power and wear all these hats, there can be no doubt that his inexperience there contributed greatly to this fiasco. He's a 33-year-old COORDINATOR who was probably overrated, in that he came from the most successful dynasty in decades.

Should we have done the trade - Cassel, #1 and #20? Yes. But it didn't happen and it's time to roll out the red carpet and bring Jay in - let him save some face. That conference call sounds like it was a major fiasco, and Josh is to blame imo.

Jay is one of maybe 50 people on Earth that can do his job .... if you need to coddle his ego, you do it. For the good of the team.
.


F that.

crawdad
03-11-2009, 01:12 PM
Come on Clavi, all these biatches are prima donnas and you have to coddle them. I don't agree with it but it is the same as having to cowtow to the politicians. You don't agree but you have no choice.

alkemical
03-11-2009, 01:14 PM
Come on Clavi, all these biatches are prima donnas and you have to coddle them. I don't agree with it but it is the same as having to cowtow to the politicians. You don't agree but you have no choice.

???

I violently disagree.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 01:26 PM
Why wouldn't teams call?

Seriously....now just try and be open minded for a moment and look at this from all angles.

All teams keep a close eye on each other, their movements, players, etc.

As soon as Shanahan was fired, blood was in the water and sharks would begin to circle as is always the case.

Then the inevitable coaching staff gutting begins where Cutlers QB coach and friend gets canned.

Then you have reports that Cutler is not happy at all and if you believe some, even asked to be traded...

....and you think this wouldn't set off a firestorm within a tight knit group like the NFL is?

So you have Teams looking for franchise QB's that see Cutler not very happy at all. Is this enough to start a Cutler frenzy? Probably not.... but as we all no the scenario hasn't even begun to play out yet.

Cutler gets a new coach, a rookie coach. And this rookie coach's QB just so happens to be landing on the market and is the flavor of the month.


...and people here think that seasoned professionals who's job it is to build teams can't connect the dot's here??????

For the sake of this argument here I'm not concerned with if it was right or wrong to listen, or how far the Broncos actually took trade negotiations.... but IMO it would be really naive to think that teams wouldn't be jockeying for different angles for different trades. IT'S THEIR JOB.

I think we'd all be surprised if we actually knew of all the trade offers and 'ideas' constantly floated around between GM's.

I have no idea if that happened/happens. Maybe it does. But I'd be flabbergasted if the GM of the Colts got several calls a week asking 'hey, want to trade Manning?' Or if the Bungals got calls saying 'hey, we want Palmer. Let's make a deal!' Same with Brady or Brees or any of the 'better' QBs in the league.

This isn't a fantasy league. I would think that a call to the Vikes that opens with 'we want to get AP from you - let's deal!' would get nothing but laughs and the man MAKING the call would lose any credibility.

What you are saying makes sense from a 'certain point of view'. But I can't think that a GM would be taken seriously if he called other teams all the time and asked to trade for their top guys just for giggles, ya know?

DrFate
03-11-2009, 01:29 PM
I haven't seen a single shred of evidence from anybody, including Shefter, who broke the story, that the Broncos initiated any of this. In fact, Shefter stated that the Broncos did not initiate trade talks. So your speculation is totally baseless, as is your charge that the Broncos have somehow disrespected Jay.
:bs:

ALL the speculation is just that (yours and mine) - mine is as good as anyone elses. :)

And where did I 'charge that the Broncos have somehow disrespected Jay'?

Shefter reported what Shefter was told. Unless he bugged Dove Valley when he was there and they haven't found it yet, he was merely repeating the Bronco line. (I think Shefter is the best at what he does, don't get me wrong. But I don't think he was 'in the room' either)

ghwk
03-11-2009, 01:29 PM
Come on Clavi, all these biatches are prima donnas and you have to coddle them. I don't agree with it but it is the same as having to cowtow to the politicians. You don't agree but you have no choice.

C'mon dad that's not necessarily the case. If you have a culture that allows it then it becomes the reality. Who is coddled in NE, Indy or AZ? WHo was coddled when we won the super bowls? You could maybe argue coddling diminshes your chances somewhat. See TO and Dallas, or wait Denver and Cutler!

DrFate
03-11-2009, 01:34 PM
Both those franchises have competent, experienced front offices that would've been way out ahead of this. They would have communicated and discussed first ... Peyton and Tom would NOT have been left out in the cold, hearing new crazy rumors every day. They would have been treated with the respect they deserve for their importance to the franchise.

Perfectly said.

Dedhed
03-11-2009, 01:51 PM
His quote was all of 2 QBs. Are you saying it's a good thing that he feels entitled to the same status as the absolute cream of the NFL quarterback crop despite achieving nothing?

DrFate
03-11-2009, 01:58 PM
Are you saying it's a good thing that he feels entitled to the same status as the absolute cream of the NFL quarterback crop despite achieving nothing?

I'm saying he probably puts himself in the same class as the top NFL QBs (obviously I have no idea, but that would be my guess). And you never hear trade rumors about those guys.

Personally I don't think Eli is the 'absolute cream of the crop'. P. Manning and Brady have earned 'top of crop' status, and probably Steeler Ben. I realize that Eli has won a ring, and some people think that automatically elevates him - but lesser QBs win rings too.

I think Cutler is in the top third of NFL QBs. Name the QBs you'd trade for him, straight up. (considering age as well as everything else)

Somebody did this on ESPN radio (don't remember who) and they had 3 in the AFC - Brady, Manning, and Ben.

And I think it's silly to say he's 'achieved nothing'. He's thrown for 4000 yards, he's gone to a Pro Bowl. It isn't like he's an absolute scrub. Elway (he's not Elway) was a great QB for a decade plus before he won a ring - and plenty of people slammed him for that. Teams win.

Rock Chalk
03-11-2009, 02:08 PM
http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k82/amesj523/emojaycutler.jpg

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Garcia Bronco
03-11-2009, 02:09 PM
he was saying even Champ Bailey was traded(back from the WA days) just saying regardless how good you are, if you can make the team better, ya gotta trade

Champ Bailey asked for a trade and threaten to hold out.

Rock Chalk
03-11-2009, 02:13 PM
I'm saying he probably puts himself in the same class as the top NFL QBs (obviously I have no idea, but that would be my guess). And you never hear trade rumors about those guys.

Personally I don't think Eli is the 'absolute cream of the crop'. P. Manning and Brady have earned 'top of crop' status, and probably Steeler Ben. I realize that Eli has won a ring, and some people think that automatically elevates him - but lesser QBs win rings too.

I think Cutler is in the top third of NFL QBs. Name the QBs you'd trade for him, straight up. (considering age as well as everything else)

Somebody did this on ESPN radio (don't remember who) and they had 3 in the AFC - Brady, Manning, and Ben.

And I think it's silly to say he's 'achieved nothing'. He's thrown for 4000 yards, he's gone to a Pro Bowl. It isn't like he's an absolute scrub. Elway (he's not Elway) was a great QB for a decade plus before he won a ring - and plenty of people slammed him for that. Teams win.

Throwing for 4000 yards means little. Jake Plummer threw for 4000 yards. Jake Plummer threw for 499 yards in one game with the Broncos.

Who cares.

It boils down to wins or losses, period. People say teams win and lose, and they are right. But the fact remains that QBs are judged on their wins and losses. They get the credit when the team wins and they take the blame when they lose. It's not accurate, but that's the way it is. Jay Cutler certainly didnt lose every game we lost last year, but in many of those games he certainly didnt help the cause.

And he certainly didnt WIN every game we won last year, but likewise with losing he certainly helped the cause.

Whether or not he is a great QB can be debated by many outside of the rabid loyalists who are so certain he is already great. He isnt, but they are certain of it and stick their fingers in their ears refusing to listen to reason on the subject. He has some great qualities, but right now, he doesn't have "it". He's close, but he isnt there yet.

He is, as of this moment, an average QB with potential to be great. Its up to HIM to realize that potential and his attitude is holding him back right now. A true professional, a truly great QB, would hear these trade rumors and stick buckle down and prove his coaches wrong and when he did, when it came time for contract extensions, he would have ALL the leverage. Right now, Jay has basically told the entire league "Im a big fat baby that can't handle adversity". Now how does that look to teams wanting a playoff caliber QB?

crawdad
03-11-2009, 02:16 PM
C'mon dad that's not necessarily the case. If you have a culture that allows it then it becomes the reality. Who is coddled in NE, Indy or AZ? WHo was coddled when we won the super bowls? You could maybe argue coddling diminshes your chances somewhat. See TO and Dallas, or wait Denver and Cutler!

Well, I have to disagree, Manning is coddled in Indy, and Brady in NE. Kurt Warner is God in AZ. It comes with the territory. I don't agree but that's the way it is! I know I'll get neg-repped for this but geez, it's true!

DrFate
03-11-2009, 02:21 PM
It boils down to wins or losses, period. People say teams win and lose, and they are right. But the fact remains that QBs are judged on their wins and losses. They get the credit when the team wins and they take the blame when they lose. It's not accurate, but that's the way it is. Jay Cutler certainly didnt lose every game we lost last year, but in many of those games he certainly didnt help the cause.


I'm not sure how Cutler is an 'average' QB unless there are 16 guys you'd rather have than him. (I guess 16 is the middle of the curve, so let's say 10)

And teams win, sometimes because of the QB and sometimes in spite of him:

So Flacco > Cutler, because Flacco won a playoff game going 9-23.

Or maybe swap Cutler for Kerry Collins - he's won a number of playoff games and took his team to a Super Bowl. They started 13-0 last year.

Anderson 'led' the Brownies to a 10-6 record in 2007 - you pulling the trigger to bring him in for Cutler?

David Garrard has won a playoff game - should Cutler pack his bags for Jacksonville?

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 02:24 PM
Come on Clavi, all these biatches are prima donnas and you have to coddle them. I don't agree with it but it is the same as having to cowtow to the politicians. You don't agree but you have no choice.
Exactly ... my point exactly, we have no choices left. We didn't get Cassel, so what do we do now? We do the only thing that makes any sense: roll out the red carpet and bring him back in from the cold.

Perfectly said.
:thanku:
.

2KBack
03-11-2009, 02:27 PM
Well, I have to disagree, Manning is coddled in Indy, and Brady in NE. Kurt Warner is God in AZ. It comes with the territory. I don't agree but that's the way it is! I know I'll get neg-repped for this but geez, it's true!

Brady is not coddled in NE, no one is coddled in NE. Even if you could find evidence to the contrary I gaurantee it was after Brady won a Superbowl MVP. Kurt Warner has had to fight and scrape just to be the starter in AZ, Coddled my ass, he's had to earn every snap he's played. saying a guy who has been benched before is being coddled is hilarious.

I can't speak for Peyton, but I highly doubt he is coddled. He is simply one of the best field generals to play the game (which is why he gets away with calling out his line and kicker).

you have to earn the right to bitch essentially.

Rock Chalk
03-11-2009, 02:28 PM
If Cutler played half as good as Garrard did when he took Jacksonville to the playoffs sure. Garrard had one helluva good year.

Kerry Collins isnt the greatest QB but what Kerry Collins has that Cutler doesnt, is patience and smarts. He knows his limitations and he works within the system.

Anderson was a fluke, but seriously, Id take Andersons starting season over anything Cutler has produced. He played fantastic.

And Flacco as a rookie has played better than Cutler has to date.

Yards mean little. Working within the system and knowing that you cant make everythrow is way more important than a rocket arm and actually being able to pass the ball into tight windows.

Im not saying Flacco is better or Collins or Anderson or Garrard for that matter. Im not here to judge who is the best QB, Im telling you idiots (and there are a ****load of them) that Cutler will forever be judged on his win/loss record.

And right now, he is just below average in that regard.

As a QB he is just about average. He has shown flashes of greatness, sure, every QB has done that before. What will make him great is when those flashes aren't flashes and its a consistent theme with him. Somethine he has yet to do.

And Im not saying he wont. Im just saying he hasnt. He isnt a great QB. Not yet.

He certainly isnt good enough to be acting like a spoiled little ****ing baby.

2KBack
03-11-2009, 02:31 PM
speaking of Kerry Collins, he's a multiple pro-bowl QB that threw for 4000 yards too...Yay stats

SouthStndJunkie
03-11-2009, 02:35 PM
Like it or not, there are certain times when an owner and head coach have to tread lightly and coddle the star of the team and treat him differently than the rest of the players on the team.

Many will disagree....but it just the reality of sports today.

Pro bowl QBs get treated differently than the second team center.

LeBron and Kobe get treated differently than a rookie 2nd round pick.

Derek Jeter gets treated differently than a middle reliever.

John Elway had a different set of rules than the rest of his teammates.

Jay Cutler may not be at a superstar level at this point, but he is a 25 year old franchise QB, that is the centerpiece of the team.

McDanielson needs to draw from his inner Miyagi and become wiser and realize that he needs to put his ego in check and make Cutler feel 'wanted'. It does not matter who is right....this is a matter of doing what is best for the team.

Cutler is being a little bit of a baby....not unlike many other pampered stars. However, the wisest decision would be to swallow a little ego and make Cutler feel wanted again....even if it means giving him a little star treatment.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 02:36 PM
If Cutler played half as good as Garrard did when he took Jacksonville to the playoffs sure. Garrard had one helluva good year.

SNIP

He certainly isnt good enough to be acting like a spoiled little ****ing baby.

But it doesn't work that way. You can't pick a guy who had a good year. You can only pick A GUY. Apparently you have to pick between Cutler and Sparky. Sparky has done, exactly, dick. I'd rather have a guy going into his third year with a 4k yard season under his belt than say, Dan Orlovsky.

Cutler had a good season with an abysmal defense and every running back short of Sammy Winder getting hurt.

How many teams would be more than happy to replace their current QB1 with #6 from Denver? To me, that is the comparison. Would Flacco have won more than 8 games last year if he were in Cutler's shoes? Would Collins? Would Garrard?

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 02:37 PM
Cutler is being a little bit of a baby....not unlike many other pampered stars. However, the wisest decision would be to swallow a little ego and make Cutler feel wanted again....even if it means giving him a little star treatment.
That paragraph should be required reading for the entire Broncos front office and coaching staffs ... a perfect nutshell of where we are now.

alkemical
03-11-2009, 03:01 PM
trust me that i agree in some sense the donks need to kiss a little cutler ass... i personally disagree... i think supporting thi behaviour though is what will cause him to not win a sb.

MVP-06
03-11-2009, 03:02 PM
I think it's funny when Cutler pops his mouth off everyone defends him saying it shows moxy/leadership. When McD doesn't sugar coat his QB and calls him out he is a nazi dictator.

Popps
03-11-2009, 03:13 PM
I think it's funny when Cutler pops his mouth off everyone defends him saying it shows moxy/leadership. When McD doesn't sugar coat his QB and calls him out he is a nazi dictator.

But, Jay doesn't play for the organization, anyway. He just plays for his teammates.

I wonder if Jay even plays for the fans?

Bronco Yoda
03-11-2009, 03:22 PM
A coach would of told all his players you are here next year and put that player in the best position to succeed that the ones changing positions would start now with there coaches .

QB 's should be helping out with the draft . busy work and helping learn the new system it is called team and as so a part of "it" .

Wrong!

The TEAM should be helped out with the draft.

TEAM

KillerBronco#76
03-11-2009, 04:48 PM
Bottom line is if Cutler wants to play in Denver he will, if doesn't want to play in Denver no one is making him. Its his decision im almost 100% certain he will play out his contract here because he likes the city and his teamates. You don't have to have a good relationship with your coach you just have to listen to him.

Archer81
03-11-2009, 04:50 PM
I am sure Jay can always find a doubles handball tourney partner if he needs one...


:Broncos:

lex
03-11-2009, 04:53 PM
Bottom line is if Cutler wants to play in Denver he will, if doesn't want to play in Denver no one is making him. Its his decision im almost 100% certain he will play out his contract here because he likes the city and his teamates. You don't have to have a good relationship with your coach you just have to listen to him.

I dont think Cutler has a problem with Denver as much as he has a problem with McDaniels.

Archer81
03-11-2009, 04:58 PM
I dont think Cutler has a problem with Denver as much as he has a problem with McDaniels.


McDaniels isnt going anywhere. Cutler probably wont either. Best just to make nice and work together for the benefit of Cutler's teammates, dont you think?


:Broncos:

USMCBladerunner
03-11-2009, 05:01 PM
I dont think Cutler has a problem with Denver as much as he has a problem with McDaniels.

You sure are banging that drum a lot, but Pat Bowlen's silent phone says you don't know what you are talking about.

lex
03-11-2009, 05:01 PM
McDaniels isnt going anywhere. Cutler probably wont either. Best just to make nice and work together for the benefit of Cutler's teammates, dont you think?


:Broncos:

STFU. If youre going to make an obsevation then have the seeds to make it on your own and not ask my approval by making it a question.

lex
03-11-2009, 05:05 PM
You sure are banging that drum a lot, but Pat Bowlen's silent phone says you don't know what you are talking about.

Right. Pat Bowlen answers to no one...its just that he b****es a lot about money. I wonder how much he will start b****ing when he's thoroughly alienated the fan base. Also, when he wants a stadium, its our team but when he wants to pick the coach that only 6% of the fan base agreed with, its his team. Right. Pat Bowlen answers to no one. He just bitches a lot.

Archer81
03-11-2009, 05:08 PM
STFU. If youre going to make an obsevation then have the seeds to make it on your own and not ask my approval by making it a question.


Wow. Only person with a bigger ego than you right now is Jay Cutler.


:Broncos:

Bronx33
03-11-2009, 05:34 PM
See jay wants to trade his
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2200/batmobile196611802.jpg
for micky Ds
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/999/hotwheels.gif
but jay also want's this as an extra ( it's a collectiable) and he already has the blue one and will be willing to thrown 5 packs of bubble yum and a few wacky packages.
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/467/hotwheel2.jpg
but micky D WILL NOT make the trade, you can obviously see the conundrum.

Popps
03-11-2009, 05:36 PM
If Cutler played half as good as Garrard did when he took Jacksonville to the playoffs sure. Garrard had one helluva good year.

Kerry Collins isnt the greatest QB but what Kerry Collins has that Cutler doesnt, is patience and smarts. He knows his limitations and he works within the system.

Anderson was a fluke, but seriously, Id take Andersons starting season over anything Cutler has produced. He played fantastic.

And Flacco as a rookie has played better than Cutler has to date.

Yards mean little. Working within the system and knowing that you cant make everythrow is way more important than a rocket arm and actually being able to pass the ball into tight windows.

Im not saying Flacco is better or Collins or Anderson or Garrard for that matter. Im not here to judge who is the best QB, Im telling you idiots (and there are a ****load of them) that Cutler will forever be judged on his win/loss record.

And right now, he is just below average in that regard.

As a QB he is just about average. He has shown flashes of greatness, sure, every QB has done that before. What will make him great is when those flashes aren't flashes and its a consistent theme with him. Somethine he has yet to do.

And Im not saying he wont. Im just saying he hasnt. He isnt a great QB. Not yet.

He certainly isnt good enough to be acting like a spoiled little ****ing baby.


People here will just never get this, Alec. You can post this over and over... and give them example after example, and you'll never, EVER be able to make most people understand.... despite the absolute truth of the matter.

Great post... you're just wasting your time.

DBroncos4life
03-11-2009, 05:51 PM
Hilarious! What has Jay Cutler ever done to earn the respect that Brady and Manning get? Try not to forget this very important point: Brady and Manning "earned" that respect.

They got more then a few years before they got tossed under the bus. If anything he is on the same level as Palmer and no one is going after him either.

As is a few year will admit but Cutler is well on his way to having a great career number wise.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 06:13 PM
People here will just never get this, Alec. You can post this over and over... and give them example after example, and you'll never, EVER be able to make most people understand.... despite the absolute truth of the matter.

Great post... you're just wasting your time.

You'd trade Cutler for Flacco right now. Straight up. Flacco is a better QB than Cutler. I'd appreciate a clarification.

Popps
03-11-2009, 06:17 PM
You'd trade Cutler for Flacco right now. Straight up. Flacco is a better QB than Cutler. I'd appreciate a clarification.

Like I said, people will just never understand the point. Thanks for providing an immediate example.

ol number 7
03-11-2009, 06:20 PM
You make some good points ... but I disagree with the Manning and Brady. Both those franchises have competent, experienced front offices that would've been way out ahead of this. They would have communicated and discussed first ... Peyton and Tom would NOT have been left out in the cold, hearing new crazy rumors every day. They would have been treated with the respect they deserve for their importance to the franchise.

Drek, I should think you would agree with me that the roles are being all botched up here. McDaniels is way too inexperienced to have all this power and wear all these hats, there can be no doubt that his inexperience there contributed greatly to this fiasco. He's a 33-year-old COORDINATOR who was probably overrated, in that he came from the most successful dynasty in decades.

Should we have done the trade - Cassel, #1 and #20? Yes. But it didn't happen and it's time to roll out the red carpet and bring Jay in - let him save some face. That conference call sounds like it was a major fiasco, and Josh is to blame imo.

Jay is one of maybe 50 people on Earth that can do his job .... if you need to coddle his ego, you do it. For the good of the team.
.
Whats more important to you. Jays ego or the team ??
F the name on the back of the jersey. Rivers and the Chargers are right Punk

DrFate
03-11-2009, 06:22 PM
Like I said, people will just never understand the point. Thanks for providing an immediate example.

Is that a yes? I don't think it is a complicated question. Which QBs would you rather have than Culter?

Bronco Yoda
03-11-2009, 06:25 PM
I have no idea if that happened/happens. Maybe it does. But I'd be flabbergasted if the GM of the Colts got several calls a week asking 'hey, want to trade Manning?' Or if the Bungals got calls saying 'hey, we want Palmer. Let's make a deal!' Same with Brady or Brees or any of the 'better' QBs in the league.

This isn't a fantasy league. I would think that a call to the Vikes that opens with 'we want to get AP from you - let's deal!' would get nothing but laughs and the man MAKING the call would lose any credibility.

What you are saying makes sense from a 'certain point of view'. But I can't think that a GM would be taken seriously if he called other teams all the time and asked to trade for their top guys just for giggles, ya know?

Trust me... if Manning was furious that Jim Caldwell (Colts new coach) was the coach now and wanted out and Caldwell had a past pupal that he felt comfy with hitting the market... other teams would be working out angles to try and pry Manning away. And Manning unlike Cutler is a HOF vet who's attached to his community.

BroncoBuff
03-11-2009, 06:28 PM
People here will just never get this, Alec. You can post this over and over... and give them example after example, and you'll never, EVER be able to make most people understand.... despite the absolute truth of the matter.

Great post... you're just wasting your time.

No way ... the vast majority of people here agree with Alec's post.

But there's a couple of asterisks to that agreement: 1) Jay's W-L record has been greatly affected by the fact we had the worst defense in the league the past two years, and 2) He set franschise records this year AND last, toppling several held by John Elway. There is every indication he is FAR more a player than the once-in-a-while great QBs like Garrard and Collins (and Flacco was not better than Jay this year).
.

Popps
03-11-2009, 06:29 PM
Is that a yes? I don't think it is a complicated question. Which QBs would you rather have than Culter?

I'd honestly have to sit and watch a ton of film on both QBs, factor in their cost, system, demeanors, etc. Off the top of my head, probably Cutler, but I haven't seen every single one of Flaco's games.

At one point, I wouldn't have given you Jay Cutler for Ben Rothlisberger. Now, I'd personally drive Jay to the airport.

So, a lot of factors come into play, and seeing enough of the QB for a long enough period of time is critical.

All that aside, your question of just "dude, so, like.. who's cooler, Cutler or Flaco!?... pretty much illustrates that you didn't read Alec's post. You don't understand what he's saying, and most people aren't here don't.

People see a big arm or a few pretty stats and they become absolutely blinded.

Alec's post was dead-on. You either get it or you don't. You apparently don't.

ol number 7
03-11-2009, 06:33 PM
Is that a yes? I don't think it is a complicated question. Which QBs would you rather have than Culter?

Ok in the AFC West Rivers and Cassel for starters
Brady, Brees, P.Manning E. Manning McNabb M. Ryan Roelisberger right off the top of my head.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 06:35 PM
And Flacco as a rookie has played better than Cutler has to date.

Cutler had a higher completion percentage last season. More yards. A higher rating. Cutler's INT ratio was 2.9%, Flacco's was 2.8%.

I simply don't understand the argument. Do you (and Popps, apparently) believe that Flacco 'has played better' because Denver was 8-8 and Baltimore was 11-5?

And no, I don't believe that raw passing stats tell the entire story. Which is why I asked - do you feel that Denver is better than 8-8 if Cutler/Flacco swapped placed?

DrFate
03-11-2009, 06:38 PM
At one point, I wouldn't have given you Jay Cutler for Ben Rothlisberger. Now, I'd personally drive Jay to the airport.

I felt Cutler was the better player, I don't anymore.


All that aside, your question of just "dude, so, like.. who's cooler, Cutler or Flaco!?... pretty much illustrates that you didn't read Alec's post. You don't understand what he's saying, and most people aren't here don't.

When the hell did I ask that? Or anything similar? That certainly doesn't sound like me.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 06:50 PM
Ok in the AFC West Rivers and Cassel for starters
Brady, Brees, P.Manning E. Manning McNabb M. Ryan Roelisberger right off the top of my head.

Thanks. I have no idea why anyone would take two Cassels over Cutler, but whatever.

Popps
03-11-2009, 07:21 PM
Thanks. I have no idea why anyone would take two Cassels over Cutler, but whatever.

Well, some people DO have an idea, and apparently some of those people work for NFL teams.

Again, Alec made a flawless case for why you sometimes choose a guy who fits a system and has toughness and some skills over a flashy-stat guy.

He made the case perfectly.

2KBack
03-11-2009, 07:31 PM
No way ... the vast majority of people here agree with Alec's post.

But there's a couple of asterisks to that agreement: 1) Jay's W-L record has been greatly affected by the fact we had the worst defense in the league the past two years, and 2) He set franschise records this year AND last, toppling several held by John Elway. There is every indication he is FAR more a player than the once-in-a-while great QBs like Garrard and Collins (and Flacco was not better than Jay this year).
.

the only records of elway Cutler broke were Attempts and Completions, which is a result of throwing all the freakin time. The other record he broke...Jake Plummers (the yardage record). which should once again show that numbers don't always make someone elite...or Jake was incredibly under appreciated.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 07:36 PM
Well, some people DO have an idea, and apparently some of those people work for NFL teams.

Again, Alec made a flawless case for why you sometimes choose a guy who fits a system and has toughness and some skills over a flashy-stat guy.

He made the case perfectly.

That's fine. I'm sure there is a system that a lifetime backup is a better fit than a talented player. I'm sure Moss and Welker had little to do with Cassel's sudden success. And I'm sure that is why NE only get a #2 for this guy plus Vrabel. This guy is AJ Feely mixed with Scott Mitchell. I'm going to enjoy seeing the people on this board go into a back pedal when Cassel falls on his face.

Dedhed
03-11-2009, 07:42 PM
That's fine. I'm sure there is a system that a lifetime backup is a better fit than a talented player. I'm sure Moss and Welker had little to do with Cassel's sudden success. And I'm sure that is why NE only get a #2 for this guy plus Vrabel. This guy is AJ Feely mixed with Scott Mitchell. I'm going to enjoy seeing the people on this board go into a back pedal when Cassel falls on his face.

You should take notice that you even mention Moss, who was a complete liability until he bought into a system.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 07:47 PM
You should take notice that you even mention Moss, who was a complete liability until he bought into a system.

:spit:

I assume you mean that Moss 'was a complete liability' until he came to New England.

I guess he wasn't on the 98 Vikings that had the league's best offense and made the NFC championship game. Or the next year when they won another playoff game. Or his other accomplishments.

Dedhed
03-11-2009, 08:09 PM
:spit:

I assume you mean that Moss 'was a complete liability' until he came to New England.

I guess he wasn't on the 98 Vikings that had the league's best offense and made the NFC championship game. Or the next year when they won another playoff game. Or his other accomplishments.My point exactly. He was invested in the system in Minn (which was a system based on throw the ball as far as you can to Moss's side of the field)and NE, and was an utter liability with the Raiders.

If Jay doesn't commit to the system, he needs to get lost, because he'll be useless otherwise.

orange 4 life
03-11-2009, 08:18 PM
...or Jake was incredibly under appreciated.

ya think?
i'm sure there are still plenty of plummer haters out there, but count me in the group that thinks he's the most underappreciated bronco of all time.

DrFate
03-11-2009, 08:21 PM
If Jay doesn't commit to the system, he needs to get lost, because he'll be useless otherwise.

I don't necessarily disagree with the above sentiment, it is the method that I don't understand. I thought Sparky was brought in to win games and take Cutler to the next level. Isn't that the correct approach, to build a system around the core players? Instead of building players around a system?

Rock Chalk
03-11-2009, 08:22 PM
But it doesn't work that way. You can't pick a guy who had a good year. You can only pick A GUY. Apparently you have to pick between Cutler and Sparky. Sparky has done, exactly, dick. I'd rather have a guy going into his third year with a 4k yard season under his belt than say, Dan Orlovsky.

Cutler had a good season with an abysmal defense and every running back short of Sammy Winder getting hurt.

How many teams would be more than happy to replace their current QB1 with #6 from Denver? To me, that is the comparison. Would Flacco have won more than 8 games last year if he were in Cutler's shoes? Would Collins? Would Garrard?

Sparky? Is that McDaniels?

McDaniels orchestrated the greatest offense to ever step on a football field. Id say that's accomplishing at least something. He coordinated Matt ****ing Cassel to an 11-5 record and if not for a ****ty 8-8 team from our won division getting an automatic playoff berth, would have been in the playoffs. Again, I think that's some kind of accomplishment.

Cutler did have a good season, you know, if you are into failing to make the playoffs and not producing much points down the stretch with your rocket arm and making a ****ton of mistakes in the red zone, you know, that area of the field close to the place you score points?

I didnt say last season was Cutler's fault. Certainly SOME of the games he could have won on his arm alone had you know, he been a GREAT QB. Average QBs find a way to blame referrees, sulk, pout, whine and moan.

Get over the fact that Cutler isnt great...yet. YET. Do you understand? He is not there YET. He may never get there (for the record, I think he will).

I dont know if Flacco would have won 8 games in our system. Maybe he would have won 10 by not ****ing us in the red zone. Maybe he would have on 2 because he sucks. I dont know and neither do you. Fortunately, we do not have to relive last season or its team. We finally got a change in here that is at least making a concerted effort to make the defense better.

And you know, competent defensive minded coaches. Something Shanahan couldnt bother himself with. That should help Cutler out, after all he is just one guy and last I checked, defense wins championships. Just ask the Steelers, Patriots, Giants, Bucs, Ravens, Colts (ask Peyton how his defense played in the playoffs the year they won) and even Rams (their defense was a top 10 defense they ear they won the superbowl, just a fyi).

Id trade Jay Cutler for Joe Flacco and a top notch defense like the Ravens anyday of the week. I can see how others wouldnt want to do that. Im a defensive kind of guy though. Id rather smash the ball on offense and play good defense. Thats a proven winning formula and will win you more championships than a rocket arm and red zone turnovers.

wandlc
03-11-2009, 08:27 PM
Again, that's baseless speculation on your part, and a false premise.

Jay Cutler was offended by the VERY IDEA that he could be traded.

So, you're missing the point here, as well as basing your argument on what you HOPE to be true, not the actual stories that are being reported.

And that isn't baseless speculation on your part?

DrFate
03-11-2009, 08:35 PM
I didn't say Cutler was a "great QB". Not once.

Cutler had a good season. He got a Pro Bowl nod mainly for that. The Broncos had a bad finish, mainly because their defense sucks. I think Cutler won more games than he lost. And I think he remains a QB in the top third of the league. He needs improvement - most QBs in their 3rd year starting need improvement.

Sure Shanny fouled up the defense. Not many will dispute that. He drafted poorly and he got fired. My problem with this entire ordeal is there is a contest between Cutler and Coach Sparky (I keep wanting to call him Josh McRoberts, and I know that's wrong).

I think Sparky has mishandled this entire thing. He and Xanders and Bowlen could have done 100 different things to make this go away. But that didn't. I don't think the guy is ready. If I had to make the choice between a young talented QB or an unproven HC who has fouled up this mess, I choose Cutler.

wandlc
03-11-2009, 08:35 PM
Well, some people DO have an idea, and apparently some of those people work for NFL teams.

Again, Alec made a flawless case for why you sometimes choose a guy who fits a system and has toughness and some skills over a flashy-stat guy.

He made the case perfectly.

Those guys don't win because of some offensive system, they win because they have good defense. That is not a system, it is a team philosophy.

Popps
03-11-2009, 11:03 PM
Those guys don't win because of some offensive system, they win because they have good defense. That is not a system, it is a team philosophy.

I'm not sure how we disagree. I couldn't agree more with what you said... but maybe that was the point of your post. (?)

Popps
03-11-2009, 11:04 PM
And that isn't baseless speculation on your part?

No, he came out and said it.

I believe his words were.... "I'm shocked."

Hope that clears it up.

Good luck with future posting.

DAN_BRONCO_FAN
03-12-2009, 12:21 AM
if i was the gm of the broncos or the coach and some other team called me askin about cutler i would laff my ass off hang up then call my star qb and tell him this hystrical joke about some noob gm coach askin me to trade my star qb hell id call a press confrence and laff at that gm or coach that wanted my QB id even go to espn and laugh hysterially at whoever was askin bout my qb id probally tease him over n over. yea i sorta burn my bridges but thats the way i roll

Circle Orange
03-12-2009, 07:44 AM
Bingo.

People around here seem to be under the mistaken impression that physical skill makes you a franchise QB, automatically.

I won't even bother listing 100 exceptions to that rule... but I could.

As usual, Popps is making sense. Thus, he must be banned. Hilarious!

But really, every time I hear about how 'special' Jay is, I'm wondering what exactly are we talking about other than a strong arm? There's been a boatload of those in the NFL...can't anyone just let the guy play and see how it turns out?!

Circle Orange
03-12-2009, 07:47 AM
Are you drinking this early? There is nothing resembling coherency in that series of posts you just spewed.

LOL! I thought my eyes were playing tricks. Ha!

wandlc
03-12-2009, 07:35 PM
I'm not sure how we disagree. I couldn't agree more with what you said... but maybe that was the point of your post. (?)

No you interpreted "shocked" to be "offended", which is quite a stretch. You are reading in a way to justify your opinion. Nothing wrong with that, but don't act like it is something other than your interpretation and opinion. I have no stake in this and believe both sides have acted in ways to exacerbate the situation.

BroncoBuff
03-12-2009, 08:58 PM
Jay Cutler was offended by the VERY IDEA that he could be traded.

C'mon Popps, that's not how it went down AT ALL.

He was pissed for two reasons: 1) that they lied to him after the trade fell through, told him they weren't trying to trade him, when he said he "knew for a fact" they were, and 2) He felt betrayed that, after he overcame his initial problems with Jeremy getting canned and bought into Josh's program, that THEN they tried to trade him.

It's just inaccurate to paint him as p.o.'d at "the very idea" they might trade him.
.

Archer81
03-12-2009, 08:59 PM
C'mon Popps, that's not how it went down AT ALL.

He was pissed for two reasons: 1) that they lied to him, said they weren't trying to trade hime when he "knew for a fact" they're trying to trade me, and 2) He felt betrayed that, after he overcame his initial problems with Jeremy getting canned and bought into the program, that THEN they tried to trade him.

It's just inaccurate to paint him as p.o.'d at "the very idea" they might trade him.
.


Yup. Because Jay stating his opinion about the motives of OTHER people makes it fact, right? Heaven forbid the franchise decides to have a face to face meeting and get it hashed out for the sake of the teammates he has no problem alienating and distracting...

:Broncos:

Broncojef
03-12-2009, 08:59 PM
Well, I have to disagree, Manning is coddled in Indy, and Brady in NE. Kurt Warner is God in AZ. It comes with the territory. I don't agree but that's the way it is! I know I'll get neg-repped for this but geez, it's true!

Manning, Brady and Warner, three guys who have won SuperBowls and are respected leaders on the field and off...how in the hell does Cutler come close to any of these guys. Maybe in his mind he's on their level, but thats his issue.

Br0nc0Buster
03-12-2009, 09:00 PM
C'mon Popps, that's not how it went down AT ALL.

He was pissed for two reasons: 1) that they lied to him, said they weren't trying to trade hime when he "knew for a fact" they're trying to trade me, and 2) He felt betrayed that, after he overcame his initial problems with Jeremy getting canned and bought into the program, that THEN they tried to trade him.

It's just inaccurate to paint him as p.o.'d at "the very idea" they might trade him.
.

Except there isnt any proof that they did try and trade him
He was b****ing to the media and calling the FO liars before he even knew all the facts.
He hadnt even heard from the FO but "knew they were trying to trade him"

Broncojef
03-12-2009, 09:02 PM
C'mon Popps, that's not how it went down AT ALL.

He was pissed for two reasons: 1) that they lied to him after the trade fell through, told him they weren't trying to trade him, when he said he "knew for a fact" they were, and 2) He felt betrayed that, after he overcame his initial problems with Jeremy getting canned and bought into Josh's program, that THEN they tried to trade him.

It's just inaccurate to paint him as p.o.'d at "the very idea" they might trade him.
.

Could care less what he feels or what his issues are, shut-up and play football. He's no franchise QB, he's a friggen drama queen looking for a trade himself so he can get a restructured contract for major $$.

BroncoBuff
03-12-2009, 09:03 PM
Yup. Because Jay stating his opinion about the motives of OTHER people makes it fact, right? Heaven forbid the franchise decides to have a face to face meeting and get it hashed out for the sake of the teammates he has no problem alienating and distracting...

:Broncos:

Well, I don't know what happened personally, but supposedly Jay had a solid source (prolly Bus Cook) who told him the Broncos had in fact initiated trade talks ... after they had told Jay they were not.

Personally, I think they lied to him too. I wish they hadn't, I wish they had kept him in the loop from the start, then they wouldn't have had to lie themselves into a corner. Fact is, young Josh is in WAY over his head ... he should be THE COACH ONLY. Just 33 with no front office experience, and yet Bowlen foolishly gave him all Shanahan's Power right away ...
http://indietravelpodcast.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/homer-doh-square.jpg

outdoor_miner
03-12-2009, 09:47 PM
Well, I don't know what happened personally, but supposedly Jay had a solid source (prolly Bus Cook) who told him the Broncos had in fact initiated trade talks ...

See - that's probably exactly what happened. And if you've read the thread on Bus Cook, you know that the chances of him telling half-truths or outright lies to Jay are about 99.99%.

BroncoBuff
03-12-2009, 10:40 PM
See - that's probably exactly what happened. And if you've read the thread on Bus Cook, you know that the chances of him telling half-truths or outright lies to Jay are about 99.99%.

Naw, I'm pretty sure it was a lie, even without Bus Cook's input. Like some guy on ESPN said, "what are the chances four teams independently call Denver trying to make a deal for Cutler/Cassel?" Pretty slim ...

No, Denver was an active player in these negotiations. Nothing wrong with that, but they should've kept Jay in the loop, and when they were caught lying, they should've come clean right away.
.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 10:51 PM
Naw, I'm pretty sure it was a lie, even without Bus Cook's input. Like some guy on ESPN said, "what are the chances four teams independently call Denver trying to make a deal for Cutler/Cassel?" Pretty slim ...

No, Denver was an active player in these negotiations. Nothing wrong with that, but they should've kept Jay in the loop, and when they were caught lying, they should've come clean right away.
.


Oh come on. Don't sit there and say you don't really know what happend, then at the same time state your opinion like it should be fact.

Here are the facts. Jay Cutler was discussed by Denver and other teams about a trade.

Well that's about it. That is the only true fact that we know is true. Everything else is just pure speculation and heresay by people who are supposedly 'close' to the team, who's opinion are different on what happend.

Did Denver shop him? Nobody but but the possible parties involve know. Was Denver contacted first about a trade? Again, nobody but the parties involved know for sure, and being that Denver is the only team that actually has said anything about it, I'd be more willing to believe them. Why haven't the other teams owners come public and said how it happend?

BroncoBuff
03-12-2009, 10:56 PM
Oh come on. Don't sit there and say you don't really know what happend, then at the same time state your opinion like it should be fact.
"State your opinion like it should be fact"?! ... I don't even know what that means. It's just my opinion, my exact quote was, "I'm pretty sure." I think that qualifies as an opinion.

I'm getting a funny feeling about these angry anti-Jay "shut up and play football!" types around here ... I think you guys are Republicans! :~ohyah!:


Actually, I agree with what Michael Smith (I think) said: "What are the chances that 4 teams independently call Denver talking about a Cutler deal ... ZERO. Unless Denver was talking back." Which they were. I think. I'm pretty sure. They definitely were. Is what I think. ;D
.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 11:06 PM
"State your opinion like it should be fact"?! ... I don't even know what that means. It's just my opinion, my exact quote was, "I'm pretty sure." I think that qualifies as an opinion.

I'm getting a funny feeling about these angry anti-Jay "shut up and play football!" types around here ... I think you guys are Republicans! :~ohyah!:


Actually, I agree with what Michael Smith (I think) said: "What are the chances that 4 teams independently call Denver talking about a Cutler deal ... ZERO. Unless Denver was talking back." Which they were. I think. I'm pretty sure. They definitely were. Is what I think. ;D
.


What it means is when you start off saying "I think" or "I'm pretty sure", then in your next paragraph you come back and say "No, Denver was an active player in these negotiations. Nothing wrong with that, but they should've kept Jay in the loop, and when they were caught lying, they should've come clean right away." That right there is you trying to state a fact when we don't even know if that is what happend.

There get it? Your other post is done the same way. You start off with an opinion then continue on acting like it is fact.

BroncoBuff
03-12-2009, 11:14 PM
There get it? Your other post is done the same way. You start off with an opinion then continue on acting like it is fact.

You got me, sheriff.
.

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 11:16 PM
You got me, sheriff.
.

But I did not shoot the deputy.:P

BroncoBuff
03-12-2009, 11:22 PM
But I did not shoot the deputy.:P

Hey mon we make the peace with the ganja :peace:

What would you think of Cutler for: Brady Quinn, Shaun Rogers and the #5 overall pick?

GreatBronco16
03-12-2009, 11:30 PM
Hey mon we make the peace with the ganja :peace:

What would you think of Cutler for: Brady Quinn, Shaun Rogers and the #5 overall pick?

Honestly, I want Cutler here. I really like his style of QB play and his passion for the game, and I just hope everything works out. I really think Cutler can bring his game to a new level under McDaddyD and win some superbowls.

Popps
03-12-2009, 11:50 PM
It's just inaccurate to paint him as p.o.'d at "the very idea" they might trade him.
.

He said he was "shocked," Buff. He then went on to explain to us how QBs like the Manning brothers aren't talked about as trade bait.

Those aren't the words of someone who just loves the city of Denver so much, he doesn't want to leave. (In fact, has he ever even mentioned the city or the fans in his quotes?)

His reference to the Mannings were that the IDEA of trading them would be ludicrous, in his mind. He's using them (clearly) to equate himself to those players, to insinuate that he (like them) being traded... IN PRINCIPLE is a shocking notion.

So, don't tell me this isn't about his ego. It's all about his ego.

BroncoBuff
03-13-2009, 12:00 AM
He said he was "shocked," Buff. He then went on to explain to us how QBs like the Manning brothers aren't talked about as trade bait.

Those aren't the words of someone who just loves the city of Denver so much, he doesn't want to leave. (In fact, has he ever even mentioned the city or the fans in his quotes?)

His reference to the Mannings were that the IDEA of trading them would be ludicrous, in his mind. He's using them (clearly) to equate himself to those players, to insinuate that he (like them) being traded... IN PRINCIPLE is a shocking notion.

So, don't tell me this isn't about his ego. It's all about his ego.
It definitely is about his ego, we agree there ... but my take on his mentioning of those guys was that their teams wouldn't go behind their backs looking for deals ... and that once they were confronted about their deal-seeking, they wouldn't lie to them. I'm tellin' ya, a big part of this is Josh is in over his head as GM. There are ways to finesse these talks - call the agent, call the player, get the team and the player out AHEAD of the story. THEN you can spin the thing as, "look at how badly all these teams want our quarterback!"

And speaking of quarterback egos .... You may remember Eli Manning refused to play for the team that drafted him ... as did a certain #7 we know well. And both of those ego snit-fits came before they played a down in this league (and both went to Super Bowls in their first three or four years). So this is nothing new, not by a longshot ... and Jay's snit-fit is kinda small compared to those two.
.

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:12 AM
You may remember Eli Manning refused to play for the team that drafted him ... as did a certain #7 we know well. And both of those ego snit-fits came before they played a down in this league (and both went to Super Bowls in their first three or four years). So this is nothing new, not by a longshot ... and Jay's snit-fit is kinda small compared to those two.
.

I agree to a point, and I've stated that I want Jay to return. I'm not a fan of him as a person, but he's not beating women so I'll root my ass off for him.

But, didn't Elway and Eli make it fairly clear before they were drafted that they weren't going to play for those teams? Wasn't that common knowledge?

It also goes a bit beyond Jay's recent tantrum. My concerns about his mopey-mode are well documented around here. I'm not saying he can't overcome it, or become a champion. I think he can. But, I've said since early last season that he gets into funks and his mechanics go to hell. I also think teams can get into his head. I've long had questions about his demeanor as a leader, as have many, many other people.

Again, just a random dude I asked at work yesterday... the guy raved about Cutler's skills, but said he wouldn't trade their #1 for him because (he described it as) Jay gets "sad or deflated and doesn't always seem to be able to regain composure."

As I said, that's just one random fan... albeit a very well-read, knowledgeable one.

I asked him today if he'd take Cutler for C. Johnson and their round 2 pick, and he laughed and said no.

For a third time, he's just an opinion... but it gives you insight that plenty of people see some serious risk in this guy.

Still, I'm not denying upside. That's why I think we should keep him. To me, there are few scenarios where a first round pick has as much potential upside as Cutler does for us.

But, if he doesn't want to play here... then we have to do what we have to do.

Still, you're wrong about him not being offended by the idea of it. Dig his quote up and read it, man.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:12 AM
Jay Cutler was offended by the VERY IDEA that he could be traded.





This isn't the truth.

"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while."

Reflecting, Cutler said he thought some of the Broncos officials "were acting strange" around him.



http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_11810112


Jay says that he's bothered about the two-faced nature of the whole thing. Not about the "idea" that he could be traded. Just that they weren't straight with him about it either when they were entertaining offers, or afterwards when the story leaked.

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:20 AM
This isn't the truth.

Just covered it, Taco.

I will stand corrected on one part of this...

It was his agent who said he was in the class of those other QBs, not Cutler. (I believe.)

That said, his agent is out there speaking for him and I haven't heard Jay say otherwise.

Cutlerís agent, Bus Cook, said his client had every right to be upset with the Broncos for even entertaining an offer for the Pro Bowl quarterback.

Jay said...

Iím upset. I mean, Iím really shocked at this point,Ē Cutler told the paper. ďI could see why they want Cassel. I donít know if they think I canít run the system or I donít have the skills for it. Or if they donít think they can sign me with my next contract.

I don't read anything in there about him loving Denver. I don't read anything in there about him not feeling "trust" with the new staff.

What I read is a guy who can't believe he's being considered for a trade. He said himself that he's "shocked."

His agent went on to clarify, though again... I'll conceded that those weren't Jay's words, but they sure sound like it and Jay has this guy out there speaking for him.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:23 AM
"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while."

Reflecting, Cutler said he thought some of the Broncos officials "were acting strange" around him.

GreatBronco16
03-13-2009, 12:25 AM
This isn't the truth.

"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while."

Reflecting, Cutler said he thought some of the Broncos officials "were acting strange" around him.



http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_11810112


Jay says that he's bothered about the two-faced nature of the whole thing. Not about the "idea" that he could be traded. Just that they weren't straight with him about it either when they were entertaining offers, or afterwards when the story leaked.

Well that is very strange. If he really thinks that now, then why was he "shocked" when he first heard about it?

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:28 AM
This isn't the truth.

"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while."

Reflecting, Cutler said he thought some of the Broncos officials "were acting strange" around him.



http://www.denverpost.com/broncosheadlines/ci_11810112


Jay says that he's bothered about the two-faced nature of the whole thing. Not about the "idea" that he could be traded. Just that they weren't straight with him about it either when they were entertaining offers, or afterwards when the story leaked.


You know what, Taco... I'll concede a bit here. It could be a little of both. There may very well be part of Jay that just wants some kind of purist relationship with his employer and boss, as silly as that is.

So, you present a good case here and I'll admit that it could be PART of what is driving his anger. (See what happens when you stick to the point and argue with facts instead of envoking Brian Griese or Jake Plumer!?)

That said, his agents follow-up remarks sure seem like they were Jay's words through Bus Cook. In other words... sure, Jay may not like that they tried to sneak a trade in (whether they did or not) .... but ultimately, he's REALLY upset because, "hey... I'm Jay Cutler. Don't they know who I am!?"

That's how it comes across to me, via his initial response and agent follow-up.

But, I won't totally discount yours/Buff's slant as a possible factor. I just don't think it was the real issue for him.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:29 AM
Well that is very strange. If he really thinks that now, then why was he "shocked" when he first heard about it?


Isn't that obvious? Because he had thought they were all on the same page together. He was skeptical when Shanahan left, but McDaniels talked to him and Jay bought into the program. He takes his personal time out to work to help build this guy a winner, and start working with Josh and Mike to learn the playbook, and then gets blindsided when his agent calls him to tell him that the agent channels are chattering that he's on the trade block. Suddenly he realizes that all this time he's been spending with these guys, it's been a one-way commitment. All the talk of "I'm excited to work with Jay" starts to ring awful hollow.

DBroncos4life
03-13-2009, 12:30 AM
Oh how people forget that Eli was on his last leg in NY. He needed that SB run otherwise he was done as a Giant.

DBroncos4life
03-13-2009, 12:35 AM
Cutlers stats are way above Eli's. I mean Eli's career Comp % is poor at best and he has a Qb rating of 76.1

GreatBronco16
03-13-2009, 12:36 AM
Isn't that obvious? Because he had thought they were all on the same page together. He was skeptical when Shanahan left, but McDaniels talked to him and he bought into the program. He takes his personal time out to work to help build this guy a winner, and start working with Josh and Mike to learn the playbook, and then gets blindsided when his agent calls him to tell him that the agent channels are chattering that he's on the trade block.

BS, that article goes round and round. First it says that Cutler was of the opinion that the staff was acting strange when he was there. The it goes on to put an emphasis that Tampa Bay started the whole trade talks. Then McD says they are not trying to trade Jay, nor do they want to trade him. To his agent calling him and telling him he is on the trade block. To now he is shocked that it happend.


I think the whole thing is just a bunch of BS. I'd be willing to bet that the Tampa starting the whole thing is true. They called first, Denver told them no. Then Tampa called another team, which ended up calling Denver. Denver said no again after listening to them. And so on and so on. Then Jays agent calls Jay up telling him that he is on the trade block because some teams are asking about him and other players from Denver. Now Jay thinks Denver is trying to trade him.

I can see why McD wouldn't have called Jay now. There was no need to because they were turning down everything. Why even bother telling him, "Hey Jay, just wanted to let you know that a bunch of teams are calling us wanting us to trade you". Now if Jay and McD knew each other longer or had a season together, I could see McD calling Jay and them two getting a big kick out of this.



This whole thing is a bunch of BS started up by another team with their own agenda. And I wouldn't put it past Shanny calling one of these teams up telling them that if they can pull a trade off for Cutler, that he would come coach for them. Pure speculation on my part on the last part.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:36 AM
And don't take me wrong. I think that there is a certain element of "I'm Jay Cutler, what are these guys thinking." But I don't think that's the driver here. I think Jay was genuinely upset that he felt like he pushed all in and bought into what McDaniels was selling, and didn't get the same level of commitment from Josh, even though his mouth was moving to say as much.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:41 AM
BS, that article goes round and round. First it says that Cutler was of the opinion that the staff was acting strange when he was there. The it goes on to put an emphasis that Tampa Bay started the whole trade talks. Then McD says they are not trying to trade Jay, nor do they want to trade him. To his agent calling him and telling him he is on the trade block. To now he is shocked that it happend.

I think the whole thing is just a bunch of BS. I'd be willing to bet that the Tampa starting the whole thing is true. They called first, Denver told them no. Then Tampa called another team, which ended up calling Denver. Denver said no again after listening to them. And so on and so on. Then Jays agent calls Jay up telling him that he is on the trade block because some teams are asking about him and other players from Denver. Now Jay thinks Denver is trying to trade him.

I can see why McD wouldn't have called Jay now. There was no need to because they were turning down everything. Why even bother telling him, "Hey Jay, just wanted to let you know that a bunch of teams are calling us wanting us to trade you". Now if Jay and McD knew each other longer or had a season together, I could see McD calling Jay and them two getting a big kick out of this.

This whole thing is a bunch of BS started up by another team with their own agenda. And I wouldn't put it past Shanny calling one of these teams up telling them that if they can pull a trade off for Cutler, that he would come coach for them. Pure speculation on my part on the last part.



I think that you're right in that Tampa started the whole thing. But I don't believe for a moment that it stopped there. I think, like anyone would do in that situation, Josh started playing with the variables. Good for him. I have no problem with that. I would have been cautiously optimistic with the supposed Detroit deal had that gone through.

But I think that once you start those discussions, you either squash them quickly and do your damage control in house by being up front with the player so that he's not hearing it through back channel leaks, or you simply do not fail to execute the trade. Maybe if this was Engelberger, you don't need to say anything. But since this is the guy that the offense was built around, and the guy that your owner is touting as "the man around here now," then maybe you should pick up a phone and say, "hey, thought you should know..."

GreatBronco16
03-13-2009, 12:47 AM
I think that you're right in that Tampa started the whole thing. But I don't believe for a moment that it stopped there. I think, like anyone would do in that situation, Josh started playing with the variables. Good for him. I have no problem with that. I would have been cautiously optimistic with the supposed Detroit deal had that gone through.

But I think that once you start those discussions, you either squash them quickly and do your damage control in house by being up front with the player so that he's not hearing it through back channel leaks, or you simply do not fail to execute the trade. Maybe if this was Engelberger, you don't need to say anything. But since this is the guy that the offense was built around, and the guy that your owner is touting as "the man around here now," then maybe you should pick up a phone and say, "hey, thought you should know..."


Yeah he still should have called him IMHO. Even if they don't really know each other that well. I would have called him laughing my ass off telling him what these other teams were trying to do. Had a big laugh and told Jay that I gave them some thought cause one team was wanting to give up the world for you, but I told them no.

Maybe this being McDs first go around with this much power, he just really didn't think it was a big deal cause in his mind, he wasn't going to get rid of Jay.

Who knows. I do know that these two to get together and sit down and talk. McD needs to come clean and tell him that he is sorry that he didn't give him the heads ups. Maybe his agent got to Jay before the McD was done taking calls from these teams.

This whole thing was just done poorly.

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 12:54 AM
"What bothers me about this is I've been dropping in there regularly the last 2 1/2 weeks, dealing with these guys, talking to Mr. Bowlen, talking to Josh, talking to (offensive coordinator) Mike McCoy," Cutler said. "Day to day . . . and they didn't reach this point yesterday, you know what I mean? It's been in motion for a while."

Reflecting, Cutler said he thought some of the Broncos officials "were acting strange" around him.

Perhaps you can provide the proof that McD lied, Taco. Otherwise, I say YOU'RE the goddamn liar. Give the ****ing proof or you are the actual liar.

hambone13
03-13-2009, 12:56 AM
He said he was "shocked," Buff. He then went on to explain to us how QBs like the Manning brothers aren't talked about as trade bait.

Those aren't the words of someone who just loves the city of Denver so much, he doesn't want to leave. (In fact, has he ever even mentioned the city or the fans in his quotes?)

His reference to the Mannings were that the IDEA of trading them would be ludicrous, in his mind. He's using them (clearly) to equate himself to those players, to insinuate that he (like them) being traded... IN PRINCIPLE is a shocking notion.

So, don't tell me this isn't about his ego. It's all about his ego.

Lego my ego, eggo......you're so cocky about you're own position that you're blinded by the waffle.

You can't sit around saying you invented the waffle but you can invest in a lesser product and say you were just trying to make some money while the patent holder for the real waffle was sitting in your office wondering where his cut was.

It's business you say.......screw the guy with the talent who's proven he's dedicated to practice, off season study/training and your regime despite his emotional response to the "real situation". If it's all business then Jay's doing precisely what he should. Standing his ground based on his beliefs. Right or wrong (speculation or truth), I respect his heart's perspective because when I'm all business, because it's business, I'm looking out for #1 just like Josh & Jay BOTH are.

Do one's feelings get hurt in business? You'd be a psychopath if they didn't. If it's truly "all business", then Jay's doing precisely what he should, following his heart. Many will argue points like, "that makes him less than dedicated to us as fans", "he should be appreciative of the opportunity to 'play a game' for a living, "do it for the team", etc., etc., that's all BS if the business doesn't feel good. That's what I "hear/interpret/observe" from the situation.

Both parties are focused on their own passions and politics. Someone has to be the adult and /or bigger man, when two competitive personalities come into a situation like this. Could Jay be that person? Absolutely. Is it his responsibility to lead a team who is governed by an organization that he doesn't believe in(for whatever reason, justified or not), hell no. Even the Hoodie had to learn a few things before he became the jaded "legacy of success/$$" that he has created.

Jay isn't an angel or a proven NFL winner and Josh has yet to even warrant conversation as a "successful head coach". Rolling in as though one of the top three players on your team, talent-wise, doesn't even warrant a professional phone call despite how the situation actually played out is ludicrous. I don't care how much sand Jay has in his snapper about the situation, you don't treat a successful first round pick like that despite what Stink says. He's becoming quite the business man in the media btw. Just remember, it's all business........if the business is bad, you play your cards to win individually. Jay is doing precisely that. He'll get paid.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:59 AM
Perhaps you can provide the proof that McD lied, Taco. Otherwise, I say YOU'RE the goddamn liar. Give the ****ing proof or you are the actual liar.


:spit:


...wait... are you joking or are you being real?

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:02 AM
I think that you're right in that Tampa started the whole thing. But I don't believe for a moment that it stopped there. I think, like anyone would do in that situation, Josh started playing with the variables. Good for him. I have no problem with that. I would have been cautiously optimistic with the supposed Detroit deal had that gone through.

But I think that once you start those discussions, you either squash them quickly and do your damage control in house by being up front with the player so that he's not hearing it through back channel leaks, or you simply do not fail to execute the trade. Maybe if this was Engelberger, you don't need to say anything. But since this is the guy that the offense was built around, and the guy that your owner is touting as "the man around here now," then maybe you should pick up a phone and say, "hey, thought you should know..."

Sorry, Taco. You're lying. It pains me to say sinse I've posted with you for years, but you are being dishonest with your posts. The fact is, you have no proof that McD lied, yet you pretend it's a fact. That's dishonest on your part. An actual middle ground approach would go as follows: both McD AND Jay get the benefit of the doubt. Only verifiable facts can be put down. The only verifiable facts are Jays bitching and moaning. So he is the one in the wrong. Taco, you're a good guy, but you subconscious has put you in the dead ass wrong position, sorry.

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:03 AM
:spit:


...wait... are you joking or are you being real?

Give the proof, asshole. I don't think you've got it.

hambone13
03-13-2009, 01:08 AM
:spit:


...wait... are you joking or are you being real?

This cat can't even hold JEFF GEORGE's jock in public let alone on this forum.....

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:09 AM
You've got zero proof, Taco. None. Zilch. The fact is, Cutler is the one who has prolonged the situation beyond what is necessary. It would be over tomorrow if Jay would be an adult an say, "Hey, it's over, I'm the QB of the Denver Broncos and I'm moving forward with the objective of winning." He's too selfish to do that. He's got no shame.

GreatBronco16
03-13-2009, 01:10 AM
It may be important to note, Tampa Bay initiated the deal. And it wasn't the only team that inquired about acquiring Cutler.

"He's not the only person in the last few days we've received calls on," McDaniels said. "We've received trade calls on a number of players, which is not uncommon this time of the year. I also think the sensitivity of the other trade that was occurring, with my relationship with New England and the whole Cassel thing, I think that stirred the pot even more."

And then McDaniels made a point of emphasis: "We don't want to trade Jay. We never did. He's our quarterback. We're excited about this season. And excited about what we're doing here in free agency to improve our team."


Taken from Taco's link. Nothing in there shows McD lying. He came forward and said what was going on. Other teams were asking about Jay. McD says he never wanted to trade Cutler, and that he was excited about the upcoming season with Cutler as the QB.

So how in all of that does Jay think they are lying? Because his agent tells him different?

I'm telling you, Jay and McD need to get together ASAP and settle this. And if Jay still isn't happy with what McD has to say, then he should go ahead and ask for a trade.

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:10 AM
This cat can't even hold JEFF GEORGE's jock in public let alone on this forum.....

Yep. Even Jeff George is more honest than Jay Cutler. Sad to say, but fact.

Popps
03-13-2009, 01:12 AM
And don't take me wrong. I think that there is a certain element of "I'm Jay Cutler, what are these guys thinking." But I don't think that's the driver here. I think Jay was genuinely upset that he felt like he pushed all in and bought into what McDaniels was selling, and didn't get the same level of commitment from Josh, even though his mouth was moving to say as much.

Taco, do you believe that Cutler wanted out of town or expressed something of that nature when Bates was let go?

(Just yes or no on that part.)

If so, do you believe that was made apparent in some way, via actions, communication, etc?

Taco John
03-13-2009, 01:12 AM
You've got zero proof, Taco. None. Zilch. The fact is, Cutler is the one who has prolonged the situation beyond what is necessary. It would be over tomorrow if Jay would be an adult an say, "Hey, it's over, I'm the QB of the Denver Broncos and I'm moving forward with the objective of winning." He's too selfish to do that. He's got no shame.


I think you should proabaly take some time to actually read what I've said in this thread.

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:15 AM
Taco, do you believe that Cutler wanted out of town or expressed something of that nature when Bates was let go?

(Just yes or no on that part.)

If so, do you believe that was made apparent in some way, via actions, communication, etc?

Taco is incapable of being honest here. His ego is too involved. The stone cold fact is that Jay handled this situation wrong. HE was the wrong party, period. That's just the simple fact. Taco can flail and cry just like he did with Greg Robinson and Brian Griese and Jake Plummer and now Culter. He was wrong in every one of these instances but he can cry on.

Punisher
03-13-2009, 01:17 AM
Trade Cutler and then sign Rodney Pete.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 01:18 AM
Taco, do you believe that Cutler wanted out of town or expressed something of that nature when Bates was let go?

That's a complicated question. Yes, I believe he probably had thoughts in that direction, when Bates was let go. Whether he expressed it or not, I have my doubts. Peter King passed a rumor that stated as much, but there's not been a word breathed about such a thing in Denver among the reporters who make covering the Broncos their living - and with as leaky as this whole scene has been, I'd think that would have gotten out.


If so, do you believe that was made apparent in some way, via actions, communication, etc?

No. In fact, Jay's actions communicated the opposite of "I want out of here." He was taking his personal time to come in to work, get to know the new staff, and learn the new playbook. Those aren't the actions of someone who wants to ditch. Those are the actions of someone who wants to give the new guy the best opportunity to win. Wouldn't you agree?

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 01:19 AM
I think you should proabaly take some time to actually read what I've said in this thread.

I've read your posts. You pretend to be "middle of the road." No one buys it. You spin anything to what your original thought was regardless of facts. You couch it in reasonalbe language but you ain't fooling any of us.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 01:25 AM
Taco is incapable of being honest here. His ego is too involved. The stone cold fact is that Jay handled this situation wrong. HE was the wrong party, period. That's just the simple fact. Taco can flail and cry just like he did with Greg Robinson and Brian Griese and Jake Plummer and now Culter. He was wrong in every one of these instances but he can cry on.

Actually, I was right in all the cases you mentioned...

I wanted Greg Robinson gone. He went to KC to field one of the worst defenses in NFL History.

I wanted Brian Griese to stick around as a back-up so that we could use the dead cap money we'd waste by cutting him on Defensive players, and have a career back-up who could be a steady hand. That dead cap money did more damage to us than anyone cares to examine - but whatever.

I said we'd never be able to win a Championship with Plummer because he can't handle the pressure of the biggest games, and he proved me right.

And now with Cutler, well, I'm right that both sides could have handled this situation better, and that the whole thing could have been avoided if Josh had just picked up a phone and made one extra call.

hambone13
03-13-2009, 01:26 AM
Yep. Even Jeff George is more honest than Jay Cutler. Sad to say, but fact.

Seriously, if anyone has been "honest" it's been Cutler. I'm not saying he should have reacted emotionally, with his honest interpretation of the situation but come on. You shouldn't be talkin' about honesty and integrity as though you know the definition if you're calling TJ a liar. Lay off the bong and beers and re-read what has actually been posted by TJ and the media. There are some reasonable arguments from your side (i.e. Popps) but yours concerning this thread is rationally impaired.

I don't know anything about Jeff George's "integrity" but I do know he was an asshole and a ****ty teammate. I personally know people that went to school with him in Illinois who will attest, live on film, that his only perceivable friend was his cousin. Furthermore that the only reason he hung out with him was because he was his cousin and his family would be disappointed if he didn't accommodate him at least a little bit......

Taco John
03-13-2009, 01:29 AM
I've read your posts. You pretend to be "middle of the road." No one buys it. You spin anything to what your original thought was regardless of facts. You couch it in reasonalbe language but you ain't fooling any of us.


Interesting. What do you suppose my motivation for such a tactic would be?

I mean, surely you give me the benefit of a doubt that I'm a Broncos fan, and I just want to see the team win. Or am I just pretending to be reasonable about that too, and secretly I want the Broncos to lose and become like the Kansas City Chiefs?

What do I "win" for pretending anything, and not just stating my true opinions?

Popps
03-13-2009, 01:45 AM
I wanted Brian Griese to stick around as a back-up so that we could use the dead cap money we'd waste by cutting him on Defensive players, and have a career back-up who could be a steady hand. That dead cap money did more damage to us than anyone cares to examine - but whatever..

Yea, but dude... that was a disaster. Griese wouldn't have possibly stayed on as a back-up. Just from a chemistry perspective, it would have been horrible and Shanahan knew that.

Not surprisingly, we went on to become winners again instead of losers, and actually won a playoff game a few years later.

Cutting Griese wasn't the defense's problem. Bad personnel decisions on defense WAS.

Hulamau
03-13-2009, 01:57 AM
"State your opinion like it should be fact"?! ... I don't even know what that means. It's just my opinion, my exact quote was, "I'm pretty sure." I think that qualifies as an opinion.

I'm getting a funny feeling about these angry anti-Jay "shut up and play football!" types around here ... I think you guys are Republicans! :~ohyah!:


Actually, I agree with what Michael Smith (I think) said: "What are the chances that 4 teams independently call Denver talking about a Cutler deal ... ZERO. Unless Denver was talking back." Which they were. I think. I'm pretty sure. They definitely were. Is what I think. ;D
.

In your defense of Jay you continually said that Jay was lied too as if it was a matter of FACT which niether you nor Jay knows at ALL!!

Now you say you are 'pretty sure' he was lied to because its unlikely 4 teams would have approached the Broncos st the same time as if you know that is what happend as well.

Lets look at a couple of other highly likely scenarios:

First, every FO in the NFL is looking for creative ways to get high value players from other teams. Suddenly "Coach for LIfe" Shanny gets canned and shocks the league. Creative GM's minds start whirling... a new coach and staff automatically means BIG changes and more avaialble players in Denver.

Everyone on the Broncos gets a reevaluation as to who each team might be able to get. At some point, one of the teams or maybe an agent (Bus Cook anyone ??) floats in back channels the idea of Cassel/Cutler trade who already knows McD's system and played at a high level PLUS some extra picks/players to make it worth Denver considering, or maybe even Belichek set up the whole drama to stick it to McDaniels since Belicheck has a history of turning on his former top employees when they are gone!?!?

In any event, it wouldn't take long for it to grow from one person's idea to several teams being in on it in a heart beat. Whoever was going to present the idea to the Broncos would have put together a plausible and relatively solid proposal, no doubt, before approaching Denver so its no mystery at all how 'apparently' four teams might seem to be interested at once without Denver having intitiated ANYTHING!

Also, Denver could easily have been approached first and turned down a preliminary offer which was then revamped and they were reapproached with a more interesting possiblity involving the teams and player/picks mentioned as the possible trade evolved.

And just maybe Denver may have then even suggested some changes to sweeten any possible deal that would be necessary for them to even consider it? All of that is possible for just what happened as we know it so far to have happend without McD having Lied to Cutler at all!

Belicheck trying to screw McD is certainly not beyond the pale either, as he seems to have a bit of a personality issue himself and even though he speaks highly of all his coordinators when they are there or just when leaving for new jobs he always seems to turn on them when they leave to another NFL team.

Apparently he doesn't want anyone to forget it was HIM who should get all the glory. Him taking a far worse deal from KC than we would have given them leads some credence to that possibility, though there are other reasons why he might have gone with the KC deal as well.

What better way than to embarass and screw up some deals for McD when he is nearly overwhelmed with so many options to revamp and improve this entire team!?!

Its quite possible and even likely that Bowlen and McD DID talk about the possiblity and or ramifications of trading EVERYONE on this team, person by person, including Jay and come to the conclusion that it would take a very special deal for them to even consider it for Jay. And still not have been the ones to float the idea to the rest of the NFL.

Whatever, it's all speculation now but there are 101 scenarios that could have well happened without McD having lied to either Jay or the press and yet some of you guys are ready to burn McD at the stake just because he took beloved Shanny's job!

In any event, lets cool the lying bit for the moment. And I'm not even so concerned with what did happen there. Its a moot point and something for McD and Jay to work through in private, but whatever happened is still no excuse for Jay to threaten to torpedoe this team over his 'hunch' and refuse so far to actually come in face to face and talk it out in person in spite of McD's repeated insistance on him doing so.

Sure no doubt MCD/Bowlen and company may have held Jay's jock a little longer if they knew he was going to cause so much trouble over this, but I can easily imagine too that Jay's rotten and childish behavior in all of this affair would only have reinforced any misgivings the FO may have had about him as a leader and long time answer here at QB.

SPORTSWRITER
03-13-2009, 02:08 AM
I honestly don't know for certain what went down in this whole Cutler/McD mess. All I know is that I want Jay to stay and McD to REITERATE that same sentiment to Cutler and be honest about it and for Jay to believe Josh means it. If both of them to put the TEAM FIRST and do what's best to win, (and I personally believe that keeping Jay is in the team's, Cutler's and McDaniels's best interests) then the Broncos will always be competitive offensively and win some championships over the next decade. Come on dudes- MAKE IT HAPPEN!!

Also, do any of you really want a QB without an ego?? If Cutler doesn't believe in himself and that he is the best QB for the Broncos or any other team, how the hell can he ever have the confidence to be a champion NFL QB?? There's room enough for both Josh's and Jay's egos on the field and in the locker room. They both can believe in themselves and still believe in each other as well, IF THEY ARE BIG ENOUGH TO DO IT!! They don't have to bury their egos to do it either- just accept each other and work together!

Popps
03-13-2009, 02:16 AM
No. In fact, Jay's actions communicated the opposite of "I want out of here." He was taking his personal time to come in to work, get to know the new staff, and learn the new playbook. Those aren't the actions of someone who wants to ditch. Those are the actions of someone who wants to give the new guy the best opportunity to win. Wouldn't you agree?

Well, here's what I think may have happened on the front end.... speculation, just anything else...

It was pretty well publicized that Cutler was VERY unhappy with Shanahan's release, and Bates' release. Much speculation arose that he might have made a play to get out of town, or at least been in some kind of Cutleresque tantrum-mode.

McDaniels walks in the door... sees his new QB flipping his wig and says, "hey... woah... let's settle down here, c'mon... we're going to work this out."

He settles Jay down, but not without much effort. From that point on, Cutler begins to accept that he's under a new boss... to an extent.

Now... stop right there.

If you're McDaniels and your new QB is flipping out. What's your natural reaction? Settle the guy down. Whether you want to keep him or trade him... he's of no use to you if he's in a state of panic. So, he did what he had to do to get the kid under control.

From that point on... possibly armed with his first impression of Cutler as a head-case, he starts to ponder what's best for the team going forward. Trade talks begin floating around... and maybe he catches wind of potential deals to get him a QB whom he KNOWS is a solid character and can execute his system very well, without the massive ego and fragile personality to go with it.

So, he keeps his ears open and starts considering his options. The rest is history.

That's a rough outline of how I think this may have played out. I just don't believe McDaniels arrived in Denver with plans in his head to trade Cutler.
I believe something he saw after arriving led him to believe it was something he should consider.

Popps
03-13-2009, 02:21 AM
I
Also, do any of you really want a QB without an ego?? If Cutler doesn't believe in himself and that he is the best QB for the Bro

Yea... I don't know. There's been a lot made of this "ego=Elway" thing in the past few days, but people are forgetting that ego also equals a ton of douche-bag busts. Matt Leinart is said to have a huge ego. Ryan Leaf had a massive ego. Jeff George.... on and on.

I'm not saying an ego makes you a problem, per se, but it also doesn't make you special. Tom Brady played through a couple of Superbowls with very little, if any ego. I detect almost none from Kurt Warner. Rothlisberger has some, but it's probably more of a renegade-type personality.

So, let's not assume that ego equals good. In fact, it all comes down to how an ego is expressed. Gutting out a win in the fourth quarter... or playing injured is a great way to show the ego of a champion. Crying because you're a tradable commodity and poisoning your own situation isn't very admirable.

Hulamau
03-13-2009, 02:32 AM
Well, here's what I think may have happened on the front end.... speculation, just anything else...

It was pretty well publicized that Cutler was VERY unhappy with Shanahan's release, and Bates' release. Much speculation arose that he might have made a play to get out of town, or at least been in some kind of Cutleresque tantrum-mode.

McDaniels walks in the door... sees his new QB flipping his wig and says, "hey... woah... let's settle down here, c'mon... we're going to work this out."

He settles Jay down, but not without much effort. From that point on, Cutler begins to accept that he's under a new boss... to an extent.

Now... stop right there.

If you're McDaniels and your new QB is flipping out. What's your natural reaction? Settle the guy down. Whether you want to keep him or trade him... he's of no use to you if he's in a state of panic. So, he did what he had to do to get the kid under control.

From that point on... possibly armed with his first impression of Cutler as a head-case, he starts to ponder what's best for the team going forward. Trade talks begin floating around... and maybe he catches wind of potential deals to get him a QB whom he KNOWS is a solid character and can execute his system very well, without the massive ego and fragile personality to go with it.

So, he keeps his ears open and starts considering his options. The rest is history.

That's a rough outline of how I think this may have played out. I just don't believe McDaniels arrived in Denver with plans in his head to trade Cutler.
I believe something he saw after arriving led him to believe it was something he should consider.


I Agree McD didnt have a master plan to ditch Cutler, he seemed genuinely too excitied to get working with Jay and made such a point of how important their relationship would be. And he also made it clear in another interview that in his first meeting with Cutler it went very well and he made it clear to Jay that he was the coach whose job was to make him better and that Jay's job was to do his best to learn the new system and listen to him.

That too was a bit of a message to Jay, and the rest of the team as well, I felt. Jay is obviously not the calm, cool and collected QB in the NE mold, and that is okay as long as he isnt an immature pouty brat and becomes insubordinate and hurts the team as well.

We need Jay to realize he has simply over-reacted to WHATEVER happened in tradegate and its high time to let it go and get down to business. McD has certianly opened his hand and invited him to do so at this point.

If Jay still drags his feet even NOW after that meeting where the entire FO reiterated clearly that they didnt expect to trade him and wanted him as their QB, just becuase he didnt get an iron clad guarantee that he would never be traded under any circumstances and had an automatic get out of jail free card here, then bye bye Jay, adios!

anon
03-13-2009, 02:37 AM
How about an ego like "I'm really good at what I do and can be successful anywhere, so all the doubters in the front office and coaching staff can piss off?" instead of spasms of "How dare they?" and "Do they think I can't run the system?" And can everybody stop saying Pro Bowl QB? Cutler didn't really deserve his Pro Bowl slot this year and he didn't particularly play well at the game either. Right now, he's very good and can be great, but he's still just very good.

Jay could/should have been shocked, maybe disappointed, maybe hurt, but all this public airing out of his grievances has not helped the team or his cause one bit. This thing has dragged so long now that somebody will be perceived to have "backed down" rather than just have a chat to get on the same page. And you can be sure that it isn't in the interest of the FO or the coach to be perceived as kowtowing to a player.

Why is it even surprising that Cassel was linked to Denver? Seems natural considering his relationship with McD.

Also, does Jay understand that the Broncos weren't just going to give him away? All the deals that have been mentioned had some Broncos receiving pretty solid value in return -- that in itself shows that the team valued him and wouldn't consider trading him lightly, even if he wasn't yet considered "untouchable".

One last thing: considering all the chaos that has ensued because of hazy trade rumors, do any of you honestly think it would have been better for the Broncos to let Cutler know that his name had come up and an offer was being considered? Do you think his reaction would have been any better?

hambone13
03-13-2009, 03:36 AM
Well, here's what I think may have happened on the front end.... speculation, just anything else...

It was pretty well publicized that Cutler was VERY unhappy with Shanahan's release, and Bates' release. Much speculation arose that he might have made a play to get out of town, or at least been in some kind of Cutleresque tantrum-mode.

McDaniels walks in the door... sees his new QB flipping his wig and says, "hey... woah... let's settle down here, c'mon... we're going to work this out."

He settles Jay down, but not without much effort. From that point on, Cutler begins to accept that he's under a new boss... to an extent.

Now... stop right there.

If you're McDaniels and your new QB is flipping out. What's your natural reaction? Settle the guy down. Whether you want to keep him or trade him... he's of no use to you if he's in a state of panic. So, he did what he had to do to get the kid under control.

From that point on... possibly armed with his first impression of Cutler as a head-case, he starts to ponder what's best for the team going forward. Trade talks begin floating around... and maybe he catches wind of potential deals to get him a QB whom he KNOWS is a solid character and can execute his system very well, without the massive ego and fragile personality to go with it.

So, he keeps his ears open and starts considering his options. The rest is history.

That's a rough outline of how I think this may have played out. I just don't believe McDaniels arrived in Denver with plans in his head to trade Cutler.
I believe something he saw after arriving led him to believe it was something he should consider.

One of the things you're not appreciated enough for, IMO is that you do actually read and interpret well, especially after you have settled down a bit. I obviously don't know anything about you personally. However, if your "Mane-Name" correlates at all with your personality and my interpretation of your posts, I may have a point.

You seem to be a "father type" who sticks to his idealistic guns during their first reaction and then eventually comes around to a more (less emotional) reaction who is actually, "listening to both sides". I really do dig your passion for the franchise to excel.

What I see consistently in your posts is a lack of patience for character related excellence. As a former Marine, executive manager of people and father to two young children I wonder what it would be like to be under your leadership control? In a not-so-young (the 2-3 years prior to the SB) Tom Coughlin-esque sorta way, you're borderline abusive in your interpretation of what a player should'a, could'a and outt'a do. If I'm on the right track, even remotely, I'm glad I wasn't under your rein in my early youth. As an adult I appreciate your idealism but cringe at your capacity for human observation. Let's just say I wouldn't want my kids to be in a situation that was directly under your control in a "coaching" sort of way.

I'm not saying you wouldn't be a positive influence on my kids in an "assistant coach (in the NFL)" or "Stress Instructor (in the USMC)" sorta way but I wouldn't want you in charge of their direction. In my own philosophy, ideals are static and equate to dreams, where character is dynamic and equates to reality.

My Correlation to football.......

-I agree, McDaniels may have not have shown up in Denver thinking he was going to trade Cutler but he showed up and didn't account for for how uncomfortable Jay's personality was going to be in accomplishing his mission. -Upon immediate review, Cassell is on the top of mind as an option to help implement his vision both professional & political immediately. (Anyone with admirable or competent ability wants to make sure they make an impact immediately.)
-At the bar, church, hand-ball court or whatever, he sees an opportunity that might help the Broncos immediately and (wise to consider) long term opportunity w/o seeing all the ramifications of his consideration.
-He gets in the snake pit with Hoodie and KC's new GM (who both benefit by his demise and/or at least immediate PR/Organizational turmoil) and screws it up by hoping it will stay under wraps.

What happens from here isn't important in my eyes because he has already failed his team/unit, by not calling Jay or his agent, to let them know before they heard it from the very small network of agents that facilitate deals in the NFL. I don't think Jay or his agent would have come out as strong as they did if they had been informed. How Jay would have taken it, had Josh done the right thing is to be determined. He could have very well have been just as much of a b**** as he appears to the media now. Had this been the case, I would be backing you with all I have.

Given my current interpretation, I think Jay deserves some slack because of youth and some credit for his moxie demanding respect. He could be handling it better but it is business. He has to cover his ass as much as Josh has to cover his. I have to remind you, he is the one who publicly called Marshall out in an idealistic way (a very controversial way I might add) that you heavily endorsed.

Anyway, it's late, I'm pretty sure I've been too verbose already but please try and give Cutler some slack.......there's a ton of BS going on as it is. I don't want to have to watch him on another team. McDaniel's needs to pony up and admit his management shortcomings publicly, right or wrong, to ensure this season isn't going to be a disaster. He might just find he isn't throwing away the QB that takes another team to the Superbowl before he's ever even coached him in a practice.

Give Jay his due. He's young, talented and motivated to win. Show us your due Josh and your capacity to deal with strong personalities reasonably. If Jay is that jacked up, come out and say it........

Dedhed
03-13-2009, 07:36 AM
It definitely is about his ego, we agree there ... but my take on his mentioning of those guys was that their teams wouldn't go behind their backs looking for deals ... and that once they were confronted about their deal-seeking, they wouldn't lie to them. I'm tellin' ya, a big part of this is Josh is in over his head as GM. There are ways to finesse these talks - call the agent, call the player, get the team and the player out AHEAD of the story. THEN you can spin the thing as, "look at how badly all these teams want our quarterback!"

And speaking of quarterback egos .... You may remember Eli Manning refused to play for the team that drafted him ... as did a certain #7 we know well. And both of those ego snit-fits came before they played a down in this league (and both went to Super Bowls in their first three or four years). So this is nothing new, not by a longshot ... and Jay's snit-fit is kinda small compared to those two.
.
How does anyone here feel they know that it was McDaniels and not Xanders who was leading these talks. And before you launch into full-fledged speculation about McDaniels wanting Cassel remember that you have no idea what actually went on.

It seems a little short sighted and rhetorical to be saying that McDaniels is over his head as a GM when you have know idea what his role was and who was saying what. For all we know it was Bowlen who wanted to move Jay.

Northman
03-13-2009, 07:42 AM
One of the things you're not appreciated enough for, IMO is that you do actually read and interpret well, especially after you have settled down a bit. I obviously don't know anything about you personally. However, if your "Mane-Name" correlates at all with your personality and my interpretation of your posts, I may have a point.

You seem to be a "father type" who sticks to his idealistic guns during their first reaction and then eventually comes around to a more (less emotional) reaction who is actually, "listening to both sides". I really do dig your passion for the franchise to excel.

What I see consistently in your posts is a lack of patience for character related excellence. As a former Marine, executive manager of people and father to two young children I wonder what it would be like to be under your leadership control? In a not-so-young (the 2-3 years prior to the SB) Tom Coughlin-esque sorta way, you're borderline abusive in your interpretation of what a player should'a, could'a and outt'a do. If I'm on the right track, even remotely, I'm glad I wasn't under your rein in my early youth. As an adult I appreciate your idealism but cringe at your capacity for human observation. Let's just say I wouldn't want my kids to be in a situation that was directly under your control in a "coaching" sort of way.

I'm not saying you wouldn't be a positive influence on my kids in an "assistant coach (in the NFL)" or "Stress Instructor (in the USMC)" sorta way but I wouldn't want you in charge of their direction. In my own philosophy, ideals are static and equate to dreams, where character is dynamic and equates to reality.

My Correlation to football.......

-I agree, McDaniels may have not have shown up in Denver thinking he was going to trade Cutler but he showed up and didn't account for for how uncomfortable Jay's personality was going to be in accomplishing his mission. -Upon immediate review, Cassell is on the top of mind as an option to help implement his vision both professional & political immediately. (Anyone with admirable or competent ability wants to make sure they make an impact immediately.)
-At the bar, church, hand-ball court or whatever, he sees an opportunity that might help the Broncos immediately and (wise to consider) long term opportunity w/o seeing all the ramifications of his consideration.
-He gets in the snake pit with Hoodie and KC's new GM (who both benefit by his demise and/or at least immediate PR/Organizational turmoil) and screws it up by hoping it will stay under wraps.

What happens from here isn't important in my eyes because he has already failed his team/unit, by not calling Jay or his agent, to let them know before they heard it from the very small network of agents that facilitate deals in the NFL. I don't think Jay or his agent would have come out as strong as they did if they had been informed. How Jay would have taken it, had Josh done the right thing is to be determined. He could have very well have been just as much of a b**** as he appears to the media now. Had this been the case, I would be backing you with all I have.

Given my current interpretation, I think Jay deserves some slack because of youth and some credit for his moxie demanding respect. He could be handling it better but it is business. He has to cover his ass as much as Josh has to cover his. I have to remind you, he is the one who publicly called Marshall out in an idealistic way (a very controversial way I might add) that you heavily endorsed.

Anyway, it's late, I'm pretty sure I've been too verbose already but please try and give Cutler some slack.......there's a ton of BS going on as it is. I don't want to have to watch him on another team. McDaniel's needs to pony up and admit his management shortcomings publicly, right or wrong, to ensure this season isn't going to be a disaster. He might just find he isn't throwing away the QB that takes another team to the Superbowl before he's ever even coached him in a practice.

Give Jay his due. He's young, talented and motivated to win. Show us your due Josh and your capacity to deal with strong personalities reasonably. If Jay is that jacked up, come out and say it........


Excellent post.

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 08:12 AM
Well, here's what I think may have happened on the front end.... speculation, just anything else...

It was pretty well publicized that Cutler was VERY unhappy with Shanahan's release, and Bates' release. Much speculation arose that he might have made a play to get out of town, or at least been in some kind of Cutleresque tantrum-mode.

McDaniels walks in the door... sees his new QB flipping his wig and says, "hey... woah... let's settle down here, c'mon... we're going to work this out."

He settles Jay down, but not without much effort. From that point on, Cutler begins to accept that he's under a new boss... to an extent.

Now... stop right there.

If you're McDaniels and your new QB is flipping out. What's your natural reaction? Settle the guy down. Whether you want to keep him or trade him... he's of no use to you if he's in a state of panic. So, he did what he had to do to get the kid under control.

From that point on... possibly armed with his first impression of Cutler as a head-case, he starts to ponder what's best for the team going forward. Trade talks begin floating around... and maybe he catches wind of potential deals to get him a QB whom he KNOWS is a solid character and can execute his system very well, without the massive ego and fragile personality to go with it.

So, he keeps his ears open and starts considering his options. The rest is history.

That's a rough outline of how I think this may have played out. I just don't believe McDaniels arrived in Denver with plans in his head to trade Cutler.
I believe something he saw after arriving led him to believe it was something he should consider.

Long story short, McKid needs a security binky and a pacifier. McKid can deal with a headcase like Moss but can't deal with Cuter? Really?

McKid wants his known quantity and is willing to consider trade options regardless as to whether or not it would be better for the team. McKid needs to be paddled and have the training wheels put back on the bike because any trade that involves Cutler better go the way of Herschel Walker to the Vikings for 3 SBs.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 09:00 AM
I honestly don't know for certain what went down in this whole Cutler/McD mess. All I know is that I want Jay to stay and McD to REITERATE that same sentiment to Cutler and be honest about it and for Jay to believe Josh means it. If both of them to put the TEAM FIRST and do what's best to win, (and I personally believe that keeping Jay is in the team's, Cutler's and McDaniels's best interests) then the Broncos will always be competitive offensively and win some championships over the next decade. Come on dudes- MAKE IT HAPPEN!!

Also, do any of you really want a QB without an ego?? If Cutler doesn't believe in himself and that he is the best QB for the Broncos or any other team, how the hell can he ever have the confidence to be a champion NFL QB?? There's room enough for both Josh's and Jay's egos on the field and in the locker room. They both can believe in themselves and still believe in each other as well, IF THEY ARE BIG ENOUGH TO DO IT!! They don't have to bury their egos to do it either- just accept each other and work together!



I agree with what you say 100%, and especially the part about wanting a QB with ego. We had a QB without any ego when Griese was here, and he was eaten alive by the fans - not that his play didn't merit it. There's a reason that the guy walked around unconfidant. And there's a reason why Jay walks around with confidence.

I'm starting to get a feeling that this might work out - at least for the short term. I have a hard time believing Jay is going to try and force a trade at this point. But I think the sight of Jay and Josh arguing on the sidelines is going to be a common one. I don't this this is the last we hear of this.

Popps
03-13-2009, 09:17 AM
any trade that involves Cutler better go the way of Herschel Walker to the Vikings for 3 SBs.

Again, no one else around the league sees it that way, unless by the Walker trade... you mean some stupid team giving us way more than Cutler's worth.

Right now, I don't even know if we could get a high first rounder for him.

Again, he's seen as coming with baggage, and has only made that worse with his tantrums.

BroncoInferno
03-13-2009, 09:25 AM
But I think the sight of Jay and Josh arguing on the sidelines is going to be a common one. I don't this this is the last we hear of this.

You're probably right on this point. Of course, Parcells always got into with his QBs, so maybe it won't be distraction here depending how the two of them handle it in the press. Hopefully, these guys will move on and learn something.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 09:38 AM
Right now, I don't even know if we could get a high first rounder for him.





I can't decide if you really believe this, or are just saying it.

If you honestly believe that, you're nuts.

Popps
03-13-2009, 09:40 AM
....

Give Jay his due. He's young, talented and motivated to win. Show us your due Josh and your capacity to deal with strong personalities reasonably. If Jay is that jacked up, come out and say it........

Well, your analysis of me personally was somewhat off. I'm probably younger than you think. I do have kids, but I'm far from an ideologist. My approach with them is gentle and I'm a hardcore believer in positive reinforcement and appealing to people's intellect to produce the results I'm looking for. I do (and have) in fact managed people in my industry for quite some time... and the people who work for me would probably have a good laugh if you asked them if I was any sort of hardline disciplinarian. I have a ton of respect for the people that work for/with me... and my style of management revolves around that respect. So, with that segue...

Jay Cutler may have indeed been out of a loop he would have preferred being kept in. This happens in the workplace. Jay also needs to realize that he might have been told one thing, and then information changed. You say that McDaniels should have kept him informed from the get-go, but we just simply don't know the details of how this all came off. We don't know how, when or why Cutler was offered up.

And, as to your thought that McDaniels should let us know if Cutler is "jacked up".... perhaps that's what he's doing, to some extent. I'd argue that Cutler's response on the back-end of this fiasco gives folks more and more reason to believe that he IS jacked up to some extent.

When this news all broke... people were on Cutler's side around this forum by a massive margin. As it played out... people got more facts and Cutler spoke and acted more... the forum flipped to a 2/3rds majority believing Cutler was at fault for this not being put to rest.... and I'd imagine that number is growing.

My point remains that while Jay MAY have been done wrong... these things happen in life and you can't simply poison the water for everyone around you because you got your feelings hurt. It's just a horrible reaction and that's not being an idealist, that's being a REALIST.

If someone breaks into my home and steals my television... I'm not going to get angry, throw a tantrum and begin tearing up my own house. I'm not going to begin throwing my computers down the stairs and kicking holes in the walls.

"But.... someone broke into your house. You have the RIGHT to be angry, Popps!"

Perhaps... but I don't believe I'm being too ideological to believe that despite my displeasure with what's happened, there is still a reaction that serves me and those around me more benefit going forward.

My analogy isn't perfect because I'm not sure McDaniels definitely did anything wrong, but I am 100% sure that Cutler needs to look at his reaction and realize the damage he's doing to himself, his team, his fans and his potential trade value if it comes to that.

Popps
03-13-2009, 09:42 AM
I can't decide if you really believe this, or are just saying it.

If you honestly believe that, you're nuts.

My words were... "I'm not even sure."

I'm not. I believe we could get a first rounder. I'm not positive we could get a top 10 pick.

If you have proof that we could, I'd love to have a look...

Taco John
03-13-2009, 09:47 AM
My words were... "I'm not even sure."

I'm not. I believe we could get a first rounder. I'm not positive we could get a top 10 pick.

If you have proof that we could, I'd love to have a look...



I don't follow the draft as close as some of these guys, but I know enough about this draft to know that Jay is light years beyond any of the quarterbacks that are in this draft. I think that if we offered Jay to the Detroit Lions for the number one overall first round pick, they'd take exactly 0.125 seconds to say yes, and would send Jim Schwartz with a cigarette in his mouth on the first plane out of Detroit to hand deliver the paperwork and help Jay pack his bags.

...oh yeah... and feel like they completely raped us.

...and they would have... and the media would let us know about it. The howling laughter would reverberate from coast to coast.

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 09:50 AM
I don't follow the draft as close as some of these guys, but I know enough about this draft to know that Jay is light years beyond any of the quarterbacks that are in this draft. I think that if we offered Jay to the Detroit Lions for the number one overall first round pick, they'd take exactly 0.125 seconds to say yes, and would send Jim Schwartz with a cigarette in his mouth on the first plane out of Detroit to hand deliver the paperwork and help Jay pack his bags.

...oh yeah... and feel like they completely raped us.

...and they would have... and the media would let us know about it. The howling laughter would reverberate from coast to coast.

Exactly. There are plenty of teams above our 12 spot in the draft that would rather take the known commodity in Cutler over what is available.

Oh, we get a probowl selection in his 2nd full year of starting. 4500 yds passing etc etc and the Broncos get to groom an unknown NFL commodity for years to come. Yeah, that would be bad for the Broncos.

Popps
03-13-2009, 09:51 AM
I don't follow the draft as close as some of these guys, but I know enough about this draft to know that Jay is light years beyond any of the quarterbacks that are in this draft. I think that if we offered Jay to the Detroit Lions for their first round pick, they'd take exactly 0.125 seconds to say yes, and would send Jim Schwartz with a cigarette in his mouth on the first plane out of Detroit to hand deliver the paperwork and help Jay pack his bags.

...oh yeah... and feel like they completely raped us.

...and they would have... and the media would let us know about it. The howling laughter would reverberate from coast to coast.

As I said, man... you need to talk to some other fans to get a clearer perspective. I've been asking the Lions fans I know, and both of them said absolutely no way would they give up the #1 for Cutler. Now, before you laugh or try to discredit them, these are two very hardcore fans. Very, very well-read, knowledgeable fans. Definitely as smart as anyone we have around here. These guys have a mock draft open on one of their computer screens all day long.

My point here is that you're just projecting what you think or hope to be true. The rest of the NFL world doesn't see Cutler in the flawless light you see him in.

Again, the one fan's response was glowing of Cutler's skills... but thought he carried far too much risk, and would want a massive contract immediately. He said he'd rather even trade down to fill more holes the team has than take a risk on Cutler.

There's probably a more scientific way to test this. I'd love to see a poll on a non-fan site. (Just an NFL board, not a Broncos board.)

Jay has talked his value down, bro.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 10:00 AM
My point here is that you're just projecting what you think or hope to be true. The rest of the NFL world doesn't see Cutler in the flawless light you see him in.



Those fans, if they're real, are ridiculous. It's not that I see Cutler in a flawless light. I mean - I can't even believe that I have to explain this.

I'm sorry. I don't believe your story about intelligent Lions fans who would rather have their first round pick and go for a Matt Stafford or a Sanchez than trade that pick for a Pro Bowl quarterback. It's not a credible story. It's outrageous - out there.

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:31 PM
Those fans, if they're real, are ridiculous.

As I said, I knew you'd attack their credibility since you disagree with them. I wish there was some way to get you in a room with these guys... and we'd see who had a better handle on the draft/NFL in general.


I'm sorry. I don't believe your story about intelligent Lions fans who would rather have their first round pick and go for a Matt Stafford or a Sanchez than trade that pick for a Pro Bowl quarterback. It's not a credible story. It's outrageous - out there.


Taco, right now.... name your price. I'll PM you my work number right now.

Name the amount. Let's bet.

I'll walk down the hall and get him on iChat video. Name your bet.

$1000? Friendlier? $500?

Put your money where your mouth is.

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:33 PM
C'mon, dude. Your new MO seems to be to call everyone liars when you don't agree with them.

Let's put $1000 on whether or not I'm lying.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:33 PM
As I said, I knew you'd attack their credibility since you disagree with them. I wish there was some way to get you in a room with these guys... and we'd see who had a better handle on the draft/NFL in general.

Taco, right now.... name your price. I'll PM you my work number right now.

Name the amount. Let's bet.

I'll walk down the hall and get him on iChat video. Name your bet.

$1000? Friendlier? $500?

Put your money where your mouth is.


I don't have any doubt that there are some really stupid Lions fans out there. I certainly don't want to pay to talk to any of them.

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:36 PM
I don't have any doubt that there are some really stupid Lions fans out there. I certainly don't want to pay to talk to any of them.

But, I'm a liar... right? I'm making it all up?

This guy has forgotten more than you'll ever know about the game. He roots for a ****ty team... that doesn't make him stupid.

So, no $1000 to put up, boss?

If I'm a lair, it's an easy $1000 for you... right?

RaiderH8r
03-13-2009, 12:37 PM
I don't have any doubt that there are some really stupid Lions fans out there. I certainly don't want to pay to talk to any of them.

What he's not telling you is that these are the only Lions fans who were sad to see Millen go.

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:38 PM
C'mon, dude. Your new MO seems to be to call everyone liars when you don't agree with them.

Let's put $1000 on whether or not I'm lying.



No, Popps... YOU make things up. You've been busted many times here making things up. You twist logic, and put words in people's mouths. And this latest one - maybe there really are Lions fans who don't understand football well enough to get a sense of draft value and would rather throw a number one at an unproven commodity like Stafford or Sanchez, instead of getting a pro-bowler on the cheap. Maybe Matt Millen syndrome has seeped into their fan base and they're all suddenly stupid.

But I know that Cutler's base value is actually two first round draft picks just by virtue of the franchise tag that we (or any team that has him when his contract expires) will be able to put on him in two years. His antics have not brought down his value so substantially that a single first round draft pick is out of the question. That's a ridiculous notion.

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:38 PM
What he's not telling you is that these are the only Lions fans who were sad to see Millen go.

Ha! It was like a party on my floor here when Millen was canned. He's the butt of almost every one of their jokes.... even to this day.

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:39 PM
Taco, it's cool.

You could be a man and apologize, though. You've been calling people liars a lot lately with no basis to do so. If you won't put your money where your mouth is, you should at least say you're sorry.

Look forward to it....

Taco John
03-13-2009, 12:41 PM
Taco, it's cool.

You could be a man and apologize, though. You've been calling people liars a lot lately with no basis to do so. If you won't put your money where your mouth is, you should at least say you're sorry.

Look forward to it....



I haven't been calling people liars. I've called you out on a couple lies that you've been spreading.

Popps
03-13-2009, 12:52 PM
I haven't been calling people liars. I've called you out on a couple lies that you've been spreading.

Yea, but every time you try... you're corrected, just like this.

Then, you change the subject.

I suggest maybe you lay off the name-calling and try to hold your own using actual debate, information and data. You tried it last night and actually did O.K.. But, today... we're calling people liars again and then backing down when asked to put your money where your mouth is.

But, I'll just assume you apologize since you're declining to accept the bet.