PDA

View Full Version : Armstrong now states it was Cassel and 2 high draft picks for Cutler


eddie mac
03-10-2009, 03:39 AM
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11874404

The way Shannon Sharpe sees it, the Broncos are going to trade Jay Cutler.

Now for the fine print on the deal: By the time it happens, he won't be Jay Cutler anymore.

"I can't recall a young quarterback with that kind of talent getting traded away," Sharpe said. "They tried to move John (Elway), but he wasn't in the prime of his career. They traded Joe Montana, but he was in year 15. They traded Johnny Unitas, but he was in year 15 or year 17 or whatever. So that's different."

Trade Cutler? Please. The only reason it was discussed was because Josh McDaniels had a chance to acquire Matt Cassel. Trouble is, Cutler has gotten so bent out of shape over it that he hasn't finished the sentence in his own mind. What Cutler needs to do is realize his name was being kicked around because McDaniels had a chance to acquire Cassel and a couple of high draft picks to launch a rebuilding of the defense.

Once Cutler gets past the hurt, he'll realize the proposed deal made sense. Because no quarterback, not Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or anyone else, could have been successful with the Broncos' defenses of 2007 and '08.

And maybe, just maybe, Cutler will admit to himself that McDaniels gets it. Say what you will about the botched trade talks, but the Kid Coach has a very clear view of the forest. Unlike the previous regime, he isn't paying lip service to the defense. Instead, he's going to great lengths to fix it.

If you're a Broncos fan, you should be happy McDaniels is calling the shots. He doesn't just bring new energy, which the franchise badly needed. He brings an objective viewpoint that had gotten lost in recent years.

Mike Shanahan had ties, financial and emotional, to his defensive players. His thinking was that, given the offense's potential for greatness, he could get by with a shaky defense. McDaniels? He came in with a chain saw and asked questions later. He didn't adopt Shanahan's signature move and fire the defensive coordinator. He fired the players because, as anyone in this town who doesn't watch HGTV on Sunday afternoons in autumn can attest, they weren't very good.

Now comes the tricky part. McDaniels has signed a handful of replacement parts who, for the short term, could return the defense to respectability. But the players who'll take the defense to the next level for the long run aren't yet here. They have to be drafted and developed.

Draft day. That's when McDaniels will succeed or fail, boom or bust. As Shanahan proved, there often isn't much in between.

Hulamau
03-10-2009, 03:44 AM
Good article by Armstrong

He is right. The problem is IF Jay is holding this thing up still he may very well still find his way on a train out of town .. and if he doesn't have his mind right yet .. maybe he should!

I'm all for Jay getting his act together and leading the Blue and Orange to multiple SB's, but he has got to grow up first or he isn't going anywhere but ... "What If" land. Regardless of where he winds up playing.

If he succeeds in pouting his way out of town and gets shipped to Detroit then ... good luck Jay, he'll likely quickly miss having this o-line in front of him, I can imagine that!

Two possibilities are both the Broncos and Bus Cook and Jay are all quietly trying to find a new home for him on terms that would suit us as well, and that is why this further delay in the meeting has happened, OR Jay is probably still dragging his feet and has become the main problem here.

I sure hope not as I've wanted to like Cutler and have supported him in Denver, but am getting more wary of the kid as the days pass and this thing lingers.

Not hearing from either side really suggests to me a lot is happening behind the scenes. We shall see soon enough I suppose.

Either way doesn't look quite as promising for Cutler staying with us as it did even last week. Hope I'm wrong.

chaz
03-10-2009, 03:47 AM
Ya good article... pretty sure we knew the trade was two firsts and Cassel already though.

extralife
03-10-2009, 03:50 AM
Nobody seems to know, but these are not new numbers being tossed about. It is clear either way that the media is grasping at straws on this issue.

Broncoman13
03-10-2009, 04:02 AM
This is what's stupid about McD's silence. If the trade was truly for that much value, SPEAK UP! Don't lie to Jay and tell him they didn't consider it.

I think the fans and player alike would understand the situation. There is all kind of speculation out there about the trade. I can easily say that we were going to get two high picks (1st and 3rd from Tampa) but we were also giving up a higher first and Cutler. What exactly do we gain by doing that? Not like we're getting a whole lot of value there... that is my beef with this. McD could've (should've) stepped up a long time ago and cleared the air on this, both to Cutler and the media. What does he gain by allowing this to stir, spin, stir some more, and possibly affect his status with the team before he ever coaches a down? Nothing to gain by keeping his silence and denying they were trying to trade Cutler.

Killericon
03-10-2009, 04:13 AM
Jeez...Sharpe compared him with Elway, Montana and Unitas? No wonder Cutler's got a big ego.

The Joker
03-10-2009, 04:16 AM
This is what's stupid about McD's silence. If the trade was truly for that much value, SPEAK UP! Don't lie to Jay and tell him they didn't consider it.

I think the fans and player alike would understand the situation. There is all kind of speculation out there about the trade. I can easily say that we were going to get two high picks (1st and 3rd from Tampa) but we were also giving up a higher first and Cutler. What exactly do we gain by doing that? Not like we're getting a whole lot of value there... that is my beef with this. McD could've (should've) stepped up a long time ago and cleared the air on this, both to Cutler and the media. What does he gain by allowing this to stir, spin, stir some more, and possibly affect his status with the team before he ever coaches a down? Nothing to gain by keeping his silence and denying they were trying to trade Cutler.

I've thought about this, and my bet is that McDaniels basically wants Cutler to come to terms with this on his own. Don't pander to his tantrum and try and hug him and kiss him and tell him that everything is alright. Make him deal with this by himself.

Be a man, basically.

Maybe then Jay will realise that he isn't the Denver Broncos, that life will go on at Dove Valley with or without him and that the HC has better things to do with his time than beg Jay to forgive him for his horrible sins.

Long term it'll only be good for the team if Jay can grow up. If he can't get over it and mature, then I'm not sure he's the kind of guy that can truly lead this team, regardless of how much talent he has.

eddie mac
03-10-2009, 04:25 AM
Ya good article... pretty sure we knew the trade was two firsts and Cassel already though.


There are plenty that are still in denial, and the mugs at ESPN still attempt to maintain that it was JC straight up for Cassel by all accounts.

Clough is the only source that has quoted the Lions two 1sts ever being involved.

Swedish Extrovert
03-10-2009, 05:02 AM
Cutler is a great QB with an enormous ego. I thought we were over this. Sharpe is feeding the flames and I don't like it.

LonghornBronco
03-10-2009, 06:06 AM
Granted Jay has a big ego, but isn't that what you want in a top level QB. I think McD has to do what ever is necessary to get Jay back in the fold, because without him we are a bottom 10 team.

broncofan7
03-10-2009, 06:09 AM
We need to extend him ASAP. And it should have happened 10 days or so ago...

bpc
03-10-2009, 06:11 AM
I think if it was a blockbuster trade, you have to look at it.

However, that was one trade scenario.

There were 2 other teams that Cutler had his name linked with. ?

Loyalty here sucks. The time for talking is over though. The best thing for all sides to do is just shut up, go through the motions of the rest of the offseason/draft and get ready for the season and play well when the time is right.

Broncos_OTM
03-10-2009, 06:22 AM
Granted Jay has a big ego, but isn't that what you want in a top level QB. I think McD has to do what ever is necessary to get Jay back in the fold, because without him we are a bottom 10 team.Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, Tom Brady. Dan Marino. list could go on. then you got guys like Tony Romo..

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 06:41 AM
If Jay ends up leaving town its because of him and its probably better that someone with that weak minded not be the leader of our team. The fact is they didn't pull the trigger on that trade PROPOSAL and that was the last of it. But the guy is throwing a hissy fit. The ball is in Cutlers court, can he grow up? We will see.

broncofan7
03-10-2009, 06:47 AM
Peyton Manning, Joe Montana, Tom Brady. Dan Marino. list could go on. then you got guys like Tony Romo..

What's the point you are trying to make? All the Qb's you have listed above have large egos...2 of the 4 have won SB's. and..............

Drek
03-10-2009, 07:00 AM
This is what's stupid about McD's silence. If the trade was truly for that much value, SPEAK UP! Don't lie to Jay and tell him they didn't consider it.

I think the fans and player alike would understand the situation. There is all kind of speculation out there about the trade. I can easily say that we were going to get two high picks (1st and 3rd from Tampa) but we were also giving up a higher first and Cutler. What exactly do we gain by doing that? Not like we're getting a whole lot of value there... that is my beef with this. McD could've (should've) stepped up a long time ago and cleared the air on this, both to Cutler and the media. What does he gain by allowing this to stir, spin, stir some more, and possibly affect his status with the team before he ever coaches a down? Nothing to gain by keeping his silence and denying they were trying to trade Cutler.

Where do you get the impression that they told Jay they didn't even consider it? He's said from day one that he hasn't talked to them and doesn't want to talk to them, because he's got his own version of the facts and he doesn't even care to hear theirs.

The Tampa deal appears to have been the Bucs' 1st and 3rd for Cutler, while the Broncos flip #48 to the Pats for Cassel. Hence it getting no traction when KC was willing to give the #34 pick.

The Detroit deal was supposedly #1 and #20 in a similar scenario, via Clough, I'm more willing to believe it was the same scenario but with #20 and the Lions 3rd rounder instead, with Detroit's 2nd going to NE and the Broncos 2nd going to Detroit. The reason I believe that is because Detroit by all accounts got involved after hearing that Tampa Bay got some interest when talking Cutler, but Tampa Bay couldn't get it done so Detroit would need to sweeten the pot on both the Broncos and Pats ends to seal the deal.

The real problem with all of this from a fan standpoint is that WAY too many people are willing to swallow the poor reporting of ESPN and the local mediots who have no ties left in the Broncos organization (and an axe to grind with McDaniels as a result) instead of a reliable source like Shefter who said the Broncos only listened to offers briefly and never actually agreed to trade Cutler.

As for Cutler himself, Sharpe's comment highlights pretty clearly that better, more established QBs than Jay have been traded, and for a lot less than the Broncos were talking about getting back. He didn't handle it well initially by going along with the media's drama creation but he can turn that around as soon as he wants to just say that its not a big deal and he's moved on. Come time for an extension you have a good reason to not offer a home town discount, but a mature player would realize that is about all this amounts to.

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 07:06 AM
Drek there are some fights you aren't going to win. This is one of them he already jumped off the bandwagon and gave up his season tickets, albeit in the club level so they will be there when he is ready to get back on.

baja
03-10-2009, 07:17 AM
We need to extend him ASAP. And it should have happened 10 days or so ago...

Shouldn't they get him to talk to them first.

Meck77
03-10-2009, 07:19 AM
Don't you first have to become a winner before you can walk around a football field with confidence that you can lead a team to victory no matter how difficult the challenge might be? Elway and Montana had that.

When things get tough Jay pouts. Several charger games come to mind.

eddie mac
03-10-2009, 07:34 AM
I think if it was a blockbuster trade, you have to look at it.

However, that was one trade scenario.

There were 2 other teams that Cutler had his name linked with. ?

Loyalty here sucks. The time for talking is over though. The best thing for all sides to do is just shut up, go through the motions of the rest of the offseason/draft and get ready for the season and play well when the time is right.

I'm pretty sure McDaniels was looking at the best possible scenario where he got Cassel and the highest/most draft picks for Cutler. Those 3 named teams showed the interest and the willingness to trade with New England to land Cassel and then deal to us. Problem was none could meet the Patriot's price for Cassel.

HEAV
03-10-2009, 07:39 AM
Cutler is a great QB with an enormous ego. I thought we were over this. Sharpe is feeding the flames and I don't like it.

Correction: Jay is a good quarterback, with potential to be a great player. But his ego and immaturity are clearly holding him back from hitting that next level.

His ego in his arm (Like Elway in the young years) get's him into trouble on the field. Forcing passes into coverage and making so very scary throws. While he has had some success throwing rockets in tight spaces, he must learn to take what's open. Also he has a dependency issue when Brandon is on the field. He will ignore a better option to throw to Marshall

Immaturity with the body language, the verbal outburst at receivers and the talking openly with the media about in house issues just drag the kid down. He's developed a reputation of being moody and easily to rattle and shows a tendency of not being ready for the business side of profootball.

Sadly Jay was used by Shanahan as smoke screen,deodorant...what ever you want to call it, to hide the other issues with the team.

Now the new coaching staff has to deal with the monster Shanny and desperate fans in search of Elway 2.0 have created.

HEAV
03-10-2009, 07:45 AM
I'm pretty sure McDaniels was looking at the best possible scenario where he got Cassel and the highest/most draft picks for Cutler. Those 3 named teams showed the interest and the willingness to trade with New England to land Cassel and then deal to us. Problem was none could meet the Patriot's price for Cassel.

The Pat's wanted and got only a second rounder.

The real issue was the trade with the Chiefs was already set with the vrabel trade early Friday. Then the Broncos or other teams tried moving in later.

Many in NE feel that Pioli and Bill had the perameters of the trade in place long before Friday and Bill was held to the deal at the end.

jonny1
03-10-2009, 08:07 AM
READ THE DAMN ARTICLE CORRECTLY!

Shannon did not say it was Cassel and 2 high picks. When a quotation mark follows a period, that means the quotation is finished. The bit about the draft picks is Armstrong, not Sharpe.

eddie mac
03-10-2009, 08:35 AM
READ THE DAMN ARTICLE CORRECTLY!

Shannon did not say it was Cassel and 2 high picks. When a quotation mark follows a period, that means the quotation is finished. The bit about the draft picks is Armstrong, not Sharpe.

Title corrected, good pick up and here's a tip try anger management classes.

Back to the article.

The fact that Armstrong has stated it actually holds more oil than Sharpe would have anyway. In a week when we had Post writers like Klis and Woody attacking McDaniels from all sides it's nice to see someone print some facts and back our HC for a change instread of the constant sucking of young JC's nutsack.

skpac1001
03-10-2009, 08:39 AM
Granted Jay has a big ego, but isn't that what you want in a top level QB. I think McD has to do what ever is necessary to get Jay back in the fold, because without him we are a bottom 10 team.

I want Jay on our team also, I think we are way better with him, but I don't want Jay's butt kissed to get him back on board. Jay needs to learn that being a team captain means he leads the teammates, not the coaches/owners. The last thing I want is for Jay to start doing this crap every time McDaniels yells at him. I am not worried about him refusing to play, and when he does it has to be under McDaniels leash, like Favre with Holmgren, rather then McDaniels under Cutlers leash, like Favre after Holmgren.

Requiem
03-10-2009, 08:41 AM
If Detroit was willing to give us #1 and #20 for Jay Cutler, I would have walked to Denver to pack his bags personally.

Northman
03-10-2009, 08:44 AM
Well, McD believes in Jay so i guess Cassel and two high picks wasnt enough. lmao

worm
03-10-2009, 08:45 AM
I've thought about this, and my bet is that McDaniels basically wants Cutler to come to terms with this on his own. Don't pander to his tantrum and try and hug him and kiss him and tell him that everything is alright. Make him deal with this by himself.



I think that is giving McD too much credit. This isn't Doctor Phil. IMO McD is running the team the only way he knows how. He is using what he has learned from his mentors Bill and Pioli.

In his World, the GM\coach is in absolute control. He doesn't owe anything to the media. The fans. Or even the players. (Hell Pioli even refused to MEET with Probowler, player-rep, team captain Brian Waters the other week). Being a prick is deemed an acceptable way for a coach to act. He has had a front row seat to see how well these tactics work for Belicheck.

Why shouldn't he model himself on that same strategy? It has proven to be very successful in New England.

Only problem is. This isn't New England and he isn't Belicheck. Hell. Belicheck wasn't even Belicheck in Cleveland. Each situation is different. There is no perfect template.

Maybe Josh should have gone through one practice with Jay before he decided that Jay's trade value was higher than his value to this team.

Spider
03-10-2009, 08:48 AM
wont believe a thing until I see it on WPI

Northman
03-10-2009, 08:49 AM
Each situation is different. There is no perfect template.

Maybe Josh should have gone through one practice with Jay before he decided that Jay's trade value was higher than his value to this team.


Very true.

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 08:51 AM
Well, McD believes in Jay so i guess Cassel and two high picks wasnt enough. lmao

McD and Xanders should have been fired if they didn't at least discuss that. Period.

Swedish Extrovert
03-10-2009, 08:54 AM
Correction: Jay is a good quarterback, with potential to be a great player. But his ego and immaturity are clearly holding him back from hitting that next level.

His ego in his arm (Like Elway in the young years) get's him into trouble on the field. Forcing passes into coverage and making so very scary throws. While he has had some success throwing rockets in tight spaces, he must learn to take what's open. Also he has a dependency issue when Brandon is on the field. He will ignore a better option to throw to Marshall

Immaturity with the body language, the verbal outburst at receivers and the talking openly with the media about in house issues just drag the kid down. He's developed a reputation of being moody and easily to rattle and shows a tendency of not being ready for the business side of profootball.

Sadly Jay was used by Shanahan as smoke screen,deodorant...what ever you want to call it, to hide the other issues with the team.

Now the new coaching staff has to deal with the monster Shanny and desperate fans in search of Elway 2.0 have created.

Oh, I totally agree. Cutler needs to make better descisions on the field. Doesn't mean he doesn't have great talent.

lostknight
03-10-2009, 09:16 AM
This is what's stupid about McD's silence. If the trade was truly for that much value, SPEAK UP! Don't lie to Jay and tell him they didn't consider it.


Yep. That's the cluster-fsck. Not only did they deny it, they denied it in a way that left them no opening to convince fans that it wasn't just a case of McDaniels making a stupid decision.

I'm a huge Jay Cutler fan (his abilities,not his attitude), but three first round picks, and Matt Cassel would make anyone think thrice.

OABB
03-10-2009, 09:26 AM
Don't you first have to become a winner before you can walk around a football field with confidence that you can lead a team to victory no matter how difficult the challenge might be? Elway and Montana had that.

When things get tough Jay pouts. Several charger games come to mind.


when did Montana or Elway have a defense that gave up 400 points a year and seven tailbacks on the I.R., not to mention a number one receiver with nerve damage to his hand and make it to the probowl?

Popps
03-10-2009, 09:43 AM
Trade Cutler? Please. The only reason it was discussed was because Josh McDaniels had a chance to acquire Matt Cassel. Trouble is, Cutler has gotten so bent out of shape over it that he hasn't finished the sentence in his own mind. What Cutler needs to do is realize his name was being kicked around because McDaniels had a chance to acquire Cassel and a couple of high draft picks to launch a rebuilding of the defense.

So, here we have yet more examples that there are more sides to this story than people here want to believe, and it seems increasingly like the deal was one that no rational coach wouldn't at least look at.

The question is, will people here continue to act like children, calling the coach Mc****face without having an concrete information to base that upon?

Honestly, people need to get a hold of themselves. The guy considered a deal to make our team better. It's his job.

Northman
03-10-2009, 09:44 AM
Trade Cutler? Please. The only reason it was discussed was because Josh McDaniels had a chance to acquire Matt Cassel. Trouble is, Cutler has gotten so bent out of shape over it that he hasn't finished the sentence in his own mind. What Cutler needs to do is realize his name was being kicked around because McDaniels had a chance to acquire Cassel and a couple of high draft picks to launch a rebuilding of the defense.

So, here we have yet more examples that there are more sides to this story than people here want to believe, and it seems increasingly like the deal was one that no rational coach wouldn't at least look at.

The question is, will people here continue to act like children, calling the coach Mc****face without having an concrete information to base that upon?

Honestly, people need to get a hold of themselves. The guy considered a deal to make our team better. It's his job.


Your starting to sound a lot like Cutler now......

Popps
03-10-2009, 09:49 AM
Your starting to sound a lot like Cutler now......

Nah. If I was sounding like Cutler, you'd hear me sobbing from my room over the sound of the Jonas Brothers.

I'm just telling you the truth. You don't have all the info, and apparently... no one does.

Jay went bizerk without having an real concrete info, and the cliff-jumpers here followed his lead. Even worse, as more anecdotal evidence comes in that the offer for Jay was significant... people continue to turn a blind eye in favor of their invented case-scenario.

Kaylore
03-10-2009, 09:52 AM
If Detroit was willing to give us #1 and #20 for Jay Cutler, I would have walked to Denver to pack his bags personally.

:rofl: I would have if we got their second rounder too. Three first round picks and two seconds and Matt Cassel for Cutler? I would have said yes. It would have taken that second rounder though (first in the second round). I think you hang on to your franchise player, though.

Taco John
03-10-2009, 10:02 AM
I've said it before, if the terms were two draft picks and Cassel, we have to entertain it. I don't think that's what Cutler is upset about. If you read his quotes on the matter, Cutler is more upset about being lied to than anything. I think if McDaniels had just manned up, and shot straight, this wouldn't even be an issue today.

HEAV
03-10-2009, 10:05 AM
when did Montana or Elway have a defense that gave up 400 points a year and seven tailbacks on the I.R., not to mention a number one receiver with nerve damage to his hand and make it to the probowl?

Probowl is all people ever talk about with Jay when trying to defend him. Yet Jake Plummer made a Pro Bowl in 2005 and had a streak of 227 pass attempts without a interception!

Not to forget that he took this franchise to the playoffs three years in a row. Yet he was considered a loser...

Hell just looking at the stat averages Jake and Jay's Denver career's are damn close!

Let's just say that Pro bowls are so over-rated!

But to answer you question 1994 Elway made the Pro-bowl the Broncos gave up 396 points. Elway's stats that year? 16 Td's 10 Int's

Ya the pro bowl is a over rated popularity contest.


You are correct this team will only go as far as the defense, but Jay also will hold this team back with his ego on and off the field.

BroncoInferno
03-10-2009, 10:29 AM
I've said it before, if the terms were two draft picks and Cassel, we have to entertain it. I don't think that's what Cutler is upset about. If you read his quotes on the matter, Cutler is more upset about being lied to than anything. I think if McDaniels had just manned up, and shot straight, this wouldn't even be an issue today.

That's assuming McD lied to Cutler, which neither you nor Jay know for certain he did. Schefter has stuck by his report that Denver never initiated any talks. If that's the case, then McD didn't lie about anything.

Northman
03-10-2009, 10:30 AM
I've said it before, if the terms were two draft picks and Cassel, we have to entertain it. I don't think that's what Cutler is upset about. If you read his quotes on the matter, Cutler is more upset about being lied to than anything. I think if McDaniels had just manned up, and shot straight, this wouldn't even be an issue today.


Yep. I dont fault him for looking at it but dont lie to the guy when questioned about it.

BroncoInferno
03-10-2009, 10:32 AM
Yep. I dont fault him for looking at it but dont lie to the guy when questioned about it.

He may not have. Why are you assuming he did? There are various reports out there. Schefter says Denver didn't initiate the talks, but listened, which is what McD says happened.

Northman
03-10-2009, 10:35 AM
He may not have. Why are you assuming he did? There are various reports out there. Schefter says Denver didn't initiate the talks, but listened, which is what McD says happened.


Who cares about initiating anything? Thats not the point here. Jay is upset because they were even considering it.

Now, you either believe that Jay was McD's choice from the get go or you dont. I know that as much as i like Jay even I would have to consider what was being offered for the guy. So if i would do that i would have to think that McD himself would consider it. What Jay is pissed about is that when he questioned McD about it McD said they didnt even listen to the offer which is false. What is so hard there for you to understand?

BroncoInferno
03-10-2009, 10:43 AM
Who cares about initiating anything? Thats not the point here. Jay is upset because they were even considering it.

Now, you either believe that Jay was McD's choice from the get go or you dont. I know that as much as i like Jay even I would have to consider what was being offered for the guy. So if i would do that i would have to think that McD himself would consider it. What Jay is pissed about is that when he questioned McD about it McD said they didnt even listen to the offer which is false. What is so hard there for you to understand?

Hold up. The argument Taco made, and that you agreed with, was that Cutler didn't like being lied to. McD said all along that teams approached them with proposals, and they listened as they would with any player. Jay specifically said in the press that he "knew for a fact" that the team was actively shopping him. That's what Jay believed and part of what pissed him off. If McD's version is true and Jay's version false, then McD didn't lie.

And Jay should be mad for the team considering a trade? Cry me a ****ing river. Every player is tradeable, it just depends on what you're offered. Jay Cutler isn't above his employers listening to trade porposals initiated by other teams.

Merlin
03-10-2009, 10:50 AM
As for Cutler himself, Sharpe's comment highlights pretty clearly that better, more established QBs than Jay have been traded, and for a lot less than the Broncos were talking about getting back.
Drek, you missed his point. He was trying to distinguish the cases from Cutler. He clearly notes each of those greats was past to way past his prime as compare to Cutler who is about to enter his prime.

In fact, his sentiment is the opposite. To quote Sharpe,

"I can't recall a young quarterback with that kind of talent getting traded away,"

Kaylore
03-10-2009, 10:51 AM
I've said it before, if the terms were two draft picks and Cassel, we have to entertain it. I don't think that's what Cutler is upset about. If you read his quotes on the matter, Cutler is more upset about being lied to than anything. I think if McDaniels had just manned up, and shot straight, this wouldn't even be an issue today.

Except they didn't lie. The word was "McDaniels tried to trade Cutler" and were shopping him. So they come forward and say "we were approached with offer and listened." How is that lying?

Drek
03-10-2009, 10:51 AM
I've said it before, if the terms were two draft picks and Cassel, we have to entertain it. I don't think that's what Cutler is upset about. If you read his quotes on the matter, Cutler is more upset about being lied to than anything. I think if McDaniels had just manned up, and shot straight, this wouldn't even be an issue today.

Please explain the scenario in which he lied to Cutler, because as far as we know from the minute this story broke until now Cutler has yet to even talk to McDaniels.

Was he lying because he said "You're my QB Jay." then later on after that considered a very lucrative offer when posed to him by another team, that previously he had never even considered? How is that lying? He didn't in fact make the trade and he didn't actively shop Cutler according to any reputable source.

So where did he lie to Cutler?

Kaylore
03-10-2009, 10:52 AM
Who cares about initiating anything? Thats not the point here. Jay is upset because they were even considering it.


Then he's the biggest pussy in sports.

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 10:54 AM
Except they didn't lie. The word was "McDaniels tried to trade Cutler" and were shopping him. So they come forward and say "we were approached with offer and listened." How is that lying?

Again don't confuse the issue with facts. :)

Drek
03-10-2009, 10:55 AM
Drek, you missed his point. He was trying to distinguish the cases from Cutler. He clearly notes each of those greats was past to way past his prime as compare to Cutler who is about to enter his prime.

No, I completely understood the point, and its true that QB's entering their prime often don't get traded. But Cutler has basically made the argument that you don't trade the face of your franchise. Well Elway, Montana, and Unitas where the faces of their respective franchises and they were all considered in trades (the last two were actually moved).

Whatever theoretical cache a "FRANCHISE QB" earns is irrelevant in perspective to what makes the team better. The notion that just because you're a really good QB means you're above being moved to better the overall team is outright delusional.

no-pseudo-fan
03-10-2009, 11:01 AM
:rofl: I would have if we got their second rounder too. Three first round picks and two seconds and Matt Cassel for Cutler? I would have said yes. It would have taken that second rounder though (first in the second round). I think you hang on to your franchise player, though.

I agree. For that price you have to take the deal. Then again, with that kind of deal, we would have to hit some homeruns with those picks.

Popps
03-10-2009, 11:07 AM
I've said it before, if the terms were two draft picks and Cassel, we have to entertain it. I don't think that's what Cutler is upset about. If you read his quotes on the matter, Cutler is more upset about being lied to than anything. I think if McDaniels had just manned up, and shot straight, this wouldn't even be an issue today.

Well, the first problem here is that you don't KNOW that. You're guessing.

I think you're wrong, but let's assume you're correct.

Would it not be possible that McDaniels had a meeting with Jay where he calmed him down about Bates leaving... and then later, was presented with an offer so good that he had to at least listen?

C'mon, what did McDaniel say to Jay.... "hey Jay, listen... I don't care if someone offers me Adrian Peterson and 8 first round draft picks, I'm plugging my ears and going... "LALALALALALALALAL CAN'T HEAR YOU....LA LALALAAAAAAAA!!!"

C'mon, man. Let's be real.

I'll take a random guess, just like you're doing...

I think Jay threw one of his tantrums when Bates left, again mistaking himself as being a front office executive in charge of player and personnel issues.

I think McDaniels went in to do damage control on his fragile, egocentric quarterback and told him to relax... and made nice.

I think later on, some offers were floated by McDaniels that he had to at least listen to. EVERY SINGLE QUOTED SOURCE goes on record as saying that we did NOT initiate the talks, instead were approached.

Someone had a big mouth and word got out, or at least some word... certainly no accurate word, as there are 100 different versions of this story.

I think Jay found out and thought to himself, "Don't they know who I am? I'm in the same class as Manning and Elway!"

He then proceeded to go bizerk to the media like a girl who has broken up with guys many times, but has no idea to handle it when a guy considers breaking up with her.

This made maters much worse, when all Jay had to do was man-up and say... "I'm sorry to hear these rumors... hope they aren't true, but I'm going to go out and win wherever I play." That would have been the end of the story.



So, we can both speculate, here. But, the reality appears increasingly to be that there was a considerable offer floated around out there... one that any coach would be foolish not to entertain to some extent.

crazyhorse
03-10-2009, 11:13 AM
Except they didn't lie. The word was "McDaniels tried to trade Cutler" and were shopping him. So they come forward and say "we were approached with offer and listened." How is that lying?

That depends on what story you want to believe. Some reports said that there was actually a deal in place at one point between Tampa and Denver. If you choose to belive that report, then they were doing more than fielding offers.

I find it a coincidence that both Detriot and Tampa were reported offering very similar deals. If a person belived those reports, then not only was McDaniels shopping him, he was working the final perameters of the deal.

Now, I'm not saying who is lieing and who isn't. Just saying that dependent on what story you believe someone could be lieing.

If you belive the reports that Jay asked to be traded earlier in the relationship, then I dont see what difference it makes if he was shopped around.

After his response to the whole thing "TRUE OR NOT", he has certainly thrown a red flag to warrant fielding trade offers now. JMO

no-pseudo-fan
03-10-2009, 11:15 AM
If we got both of Det 1st and their 2nd(plus something else), we could completely make over the team in one season.

1(1) Stafford
1(12)Tyson Jackson
1(20)Maualuga
2(33)Larry English
2(48)Brace

I would be ok with a trade that netted this. Our defense would be better, much better from day 1, and we have a QB of the future.

baja
03-10-2009, 11:20 AM
I actually like the way the Broncos are handling this. Coach McD extended the invitation to Jay to come for a meet and explain session and Jay turned it down in favor of more sulking. To those of you calling for McD to explain himself in the press i disagree, this is an issue that should be handled in a face to face with Jay Cutler and the first thing McD should to is explain what a player role is, what a contract means and who the coach is than go from there.

Merlin
03-10-2009, 11:26 AM
The notion that just because you're a really good QB means you're above being moved to better the overall team is outright delusional.
Yet Sharpe Cannot recall it having happened (when we are talking Cutler level talent and experience/achievement). BTW, you totally misrepresented Sharpe's perspective if you got it. He clearly states the cases are distinguishable. It is not a case of semantics as you try to portray now by talking about the face of a franchise. Whatever point Cutler is making, you were referring to Sharpe's comments and misrepresented them to strengthen your argument...just saying.

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 11:28 AM
I actually like the way the Broncos are handling this. Coach McD extended the invitation to Jay to come for a meet and explain session and Jay turned it down in favor of more sulking. To those of you calling for McD to explain himself in the press i disagree, this is an issue that should be handled in a face to face with Jay Cutler and the first thing McD should to is explain what a player role is, what a contract means and who the coach is than go from there.
:notworthy

Rock Chalk
03-10-2009, 11:34 AM
Granted Jay has a big ego, but isn't that what you want in a top level QB. I think McD has to do what ever is necessary to get Jay back in the fold, because without him we are a bottom 10 team.

Not me. The traits I want of a QB:

Sure but not cocky.
Confident but not arrogant.
Hard worker, not "entitled" (basically a Republican instead of a Democrat)
Smart, patient, calculating.
A comrade but not a confidant.
A leader of men, not a leader of tantrums
Efficient not wasteful

Jay has few of these traits. He is arrogant, egotistical, cocky, and feels entitled to something that he hasnt earned rightfully but was given to him by Shanahan. He has shown at times to be patient, but mostly isnt. He obviously is smart, he did go to Vandy afterall, but he isnt calculating and doesnt understand on 3rd and short you dont throw a bomb to a triple covered Brandon Marshall. He hasnt proved anything to me as a leader, except his ability to lead the team in whining. He has been efficient at times, but has been incredibly wasteful (in his throws) at others. I think he is, at heart, a hard worker, but the fact that he hasnt had any worries about his security has made him soft to me.

Jay can overcome most of his mental retardation, but he has to be willing to sacrifice his own ego to do so.

Bronco_Beerslug
03-10-2009, 11:47 AM
Not me. The traits I want of a QB:
.Someone like a ............say.. Vince Young eh?

bronco militia
03-10-2009, 11:53 AM
Jay learned of the trade talks from his agent...once word got out that Cutler was pissed, the Broncos immediatly stopped contact with his agent.

since then we have not heard a single word from Jay Cutler.


anything after this is 100% hyperbole

BroncoInferno
03-10-2009, 11:56 AM
Hard worker, not "entitled" (basically a Republican instead of a Democrat)

Yeah, I guess it took Bush and his Republican cronies a lot of hard work to totally **** up the country the last eight years.

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 12:22 PM
Jay learned of the trade talks from his agent...once word got out that Cutler was pissed, the Broncos immediatly stopped contact with his agent.

since then we have not heard a single word from Jay Cutler.


anything after this is 100% hyperbole

Actually they didn't immediately stop contact with Bus Cook. He requested permission to seek a trade. THey declined, there was not much to say after that. They did try to contact Cutler, as he admitted, but he hasn't returned that phone call. But you don't need to speak to an agent to talk to one of your players that are under contract.

Broncoman13
03-10-2009, 06:16 PM
Nah. If I was sounding like Cutler, you'd hear me sobbing from my room over the sound of the Jonas Brothers.

I'm just telling you the truth. You don't have all the info, and apparently... no one does.

Jay went bizerk without having an real concrete info, and the cliff-jumpers here followed his lead. Even worse, as more anecdotal evidence comes in that the offer for Jay was significant... people continue to turn a blind eye in favor of their invented case-scenario.

McD does and he could have squashed this before it ever became an issue. How easy would it have been to say, "Jay, I don't want to trade you. If I trade you people will look at me like I'm crazy in Denver. But if I don't entertain a couple of high draft picks and a QB that I know personally can get the job done... I'm not doing a good job for this franchise."

Why not be straight from the onset??? That is the $$$ question that I'd like to know. I can get past Cutler being traded. I can't get past a rookie GM and HC stepping on their cranks and then they can't even get the same message out to the media. BUSH LEAGUE!

Broncoman13
03-10-2009, 06:22 PM
Actually they didn't immediately stop contact with Bus Cook. He requested permission to seek a trade. THey declined, there was not much to say after that. They did try to contact Cutler, as he admitted, but he hasn't returned that phone call. But you don't need to speak to an agent to talk to one of your players that are under contract.

There you go, you'll take that as gospel but you won't take anything against McD. You can't even admit that he handled this like a bumbling buffoon. When did you ever here Cutler say he wanted to be traded? Seems to me that you have to hear it yourself or have it reported by Adam Schefter before you believe.

For the record, I do believe that Cutler requested a trade. I think he did it on more than one occasion this offseason. I also believe that McD did in fact attempt to trade him and then lied to Cutler about it. Be a man and tell him the truth. "Jay, you're a little baby and I want somebody in here that can act like a man and lead." McD won't step up to the pump now that he stepped on his hose... This is still an issue b/c he allowed it to get this far.

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 06:29 PM
There you go, you'll take that as gospel but you won't take anything against McD. You can't even admit that he handled this like a bumbling buffoon. When did you ever here Cutler say he wanted to be traded? Seems to me that you have to hear it yourself or have it reported by Adam Schefter before you believe.

For the record, I do believe that Cutler requested a trade. I think he did it on more than one occasion this offseason. I also believe that McD did in fact attempt to trade him and then lied to Cutler about it. Be a man and tell him the truth. "Jay, you're a little baby and I want somebody in here that can act like a man and lead." McD won't step up to the pump now that he stepped on his hose... This is still an issue b/c he allowed it to get this far.

Right ;) , so when do you think you will buy your season tickets back. I bet you are back on the bandwagon by July.

BroncoBuff
03-10-2009, 06:37 PM
McD does and he could have squashed this before it ever became an issue. How easy would it have been to say, "Jay, I don't want to trade you. If I trade you people will look at me like I'm crazy in Denver. But if I don't entertain a couple of high draft picks and a QB that I know personally can get the job done... I'm not doing a good job for this franchise."
Exactly. And if we're honest - brutally honest - maybe it's a deal we should've taken. Cassel already knows and has excelled in this very complicated offense, plus #1 and #20 picks on top of that? To be brutally honest, if that really was the deal, we should have taken it.

Proper draft selections would yield two young impact players on defense ... that's a once-in-a-lifetime, mini-Herschel Walker type windfall. The kinda windfall that people point to years down the road to explain how Denver has won three division titles in a row.

Hate to say it now, but Cassel + #1 + #20 for Cutler and a second-rounder? We should have taken it.
.

Broncoman13
03-10-2009, 06:48 PM
Exactly. And if we're honest - brutally honest - maybe it's a deal we should've taken. Cassel already knows and has excelled in this very complicated offense, plus #1 and #20 picks on top of that? To be brutally honest, if that really was the deal, we should have taken it.

Proper draft selections would yield two young impact players on defense ... that's a once-in-a-lifetime, mini-Herschel Walker type windfall. The kinda windfall that people point to years down the road to explain how Denver has won three division titles in a row.

Hate to say it now, but Cassel + #1 + #20 for Cutler and a second-rounder? We should have taken it.
.

Hell yes we should've taken it... which is why I'd raise the BS flag nice and high right about now. Its comical to think we would've turned down a franchise QB and two VERY HIGH draft picks for Jay Cutler. And, if by some chance that rumor has any merit... FIRE Xanders and McD and whomever else didn't pull the trigger!

eddie mac
03-10-2009, 06:54 PM
Hell yes we should've taken it... which is why I'd raise the BS flag nice and high right about now. Its comical to think we would've turned down a franchise QB and two VERY HIGH draft picks for Jay Cutler. And, if by some chance that rumor has any merit... FIRE Xanders and McD and whomever else didn't pull the trigger!

We didn't turn it down. The Patriots took the major player off the table in Cassel. The trade was useless without a QB McD was comfortable with.

Broncoman13
03-10-2009, 07:06 PM
Right ;) , so when do you think you will buy your season tickets back. I bet you are back on the bandwagon by July.

Pretty sure my mind is made up on season tickets. I will however go up and see my tailgating buddies during the home games. Why on earth would I pay good money (Including tix, food, trans, etc.... $3-4k). I guarantee you I spent at least $300 every home game this year. The first two were a lot more than that as I bought a few jerseys, jackets, and things for the kids. Not to mention the 15 or so $8 drinks. Anyhow, I'm not gonna give up that kind of cash knowing that this team is in a chaotic state. Bet your ass I'll sit at home and cheer on the Denver Broncos. I don't have to like Cutler or Marshall or McD or Bowlen to like the Denver Broncos. I got thru the Superbowl losses, the Phillips years, the Griese years, the Dale Carter, IHOP, and Travis Henry years, the Middlebrooks, Tovessi, Foster, O'neal, Nash, Pierce, Watts, and Lelie draft picks... I'm sure I'll get thru this, but at this point in time I'm damn sure not going to fund anymore stupidity! If you like I'll post a screen print of my gift cert. that we received a few weeks ago for the Broncos Store... Not even giving that money to them at this point!

Nick my friend, you're welcome to accept the status quo (or below, IMO). It's not my place to tell you where to stand on these issues. You're welcome to your opinion just as I'm entitled to my own. I respect your opinion. Probably more than you know. It has little affect on my perspective though. You're still looking at personalities and the current conflicts. I'm looking at the outcome (potential) and what it will do to my favorite team. I'm not some casual fan that watches b/c I want a chill day on Sunday. I went to about 12 camp sessions last year. All but two home games. And I haven't missed a game since 1999 which was my first year of the NFL Ticket. As my family can attest, if the Broncos lose I'm not a fun person to be around for a couple of days. In the last couple years I've been able to calm that down to the rest of the Sunday. When the Broncos win, I'm happy and begin worrying about the following week immediately. Don't think for one second that I'm turning in my fanship with my tickets, I'm just choosing to show the Broncos that I do not agree with how they are operating their business currently. My $$$, my prerogative!

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 07:09 PM
Your have every right to your own opinion, Alex.

But I have a feeling you will be on the bandwagon sooner than even you think, Alex.

SoCalBronco
03-10-2009, 07:19 PM
Don't think for one second that I'm turning in my fanship with my tickets, I'm just choosing to show the Broncos that I do not agree with how they are operating their business currently. My $$$, my prerogative!

Good for you, Oskie! The best thing that can be done is for people to show Bowlen, financially, what they think of how business is being operated. That's the only way to get to him. You have to hit him in the wallet. :thumbs:

Broncoman13
03-10-2009, 07:20 PM
How can it be getting on the bandwagod when I already clearly explained I'm a huge Broncos fan, not a player/coach/owner fan?!?

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 07:27 PM
How can it be getting on the bandwagod when I already clearly explained I'm a huge Broncos fan, not a player/coach/owner fan?!?

You are clearly a bandwagon fan. Turning in your tickets because they hurt your QB's feelings, pathetic really.

Broncoman13
03-10-2009, 07:58 PM
You are clearly a bandwagon fan. Turning in your tickets because they hurt your QB's feelings, pathetic really.

Hmmm, seems like my decision to not buy the tickets was made more than a month ago. Well before McD and Culter's drama. I could see fallout coming from a mile away, go on thinking whatever you would like though. I'm sure you will have plenty of opportunities to buy tickets this year and like last year I'm sure you will turn those opportunities down.

theAPAOps5
03-10-2009, 09:29 PM
Hmmm, seems like my decision to not buy the tickets was made more than a month ago. Well before McD and Culter's drama. I could see fallout coming from a mile away, go on thinking whatever you would like though. I'm sure you will have plenty of opportunities to buy tickets this year and like last year I'm sure you will turn those opportunities down.

Sad little bandwagon fan. It must suck not to have a true allegiance. Should we all chip in and buy you a Denver Cutlers or Denver Goodmans or Denver Shanahans jersey? What would you like the best? Because you clearly aren't a Broncos fan.