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TheReverend
03-09-2009, 06:07 AM
Okay, so being a skeptic by nature, I find even just the concept of alien life visiting this planet nearly impossible just by the sheer distance involved alone.

That being said, I'm starting to become a hobbyist because some of these sightings, experiences, etc come from credible people and seem to defy any other explanation (atmospheric reflections, military excercises, etc). AND that UFO Hunters show is a great time killer.

So... what do people generally think?

(Please refrain from any usually obligatory google image photos, and any Mexican jokes)

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 06:08 AM
Btw, let me suffix with, I've never seen anything. And I do think it's curious that the majority of sightings do seem to take place around nukes.

tsiguy96
03-09-2009, 06:11 AM
if earth was 1 meter from the sun, earth would be 150 miles away from the nearest star. we will never know about life anywhere else, simply because im not sold that life can sustain itself long enough for us to find out about it. universe is billions of years old and so big its not possible to fathom. im sure at some point in the universe there was life somewhere, there may be now still, but its simply too big and too old for us to know.

maher_tyler
03-09-2009, 06:23 AM
It's very interesting but i have never seen one...

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 06:31 AM
if earth was 1 meter from the sun, earth would be 150 miles away from the nearest star. we will never know about life anywhere else, simply because im not sold that life can sustain itself long enough for us to find out about it. universe is billions of years old and so big its not possible to fathom. im sure at some point in the universe there was life somewhere, there may be now still, but its simply too big and too old for us to know.

I think it's beyond a shadow of a doubt that life is out there. I think the issue is more about if intelligent civilizations have been able to evolve and if traveling the distance is possible.

I don't think it is. But then again, only a blip ago in our technological evolution ANY space flight was science fiction, and before that, flight.

Had we evolved ten thousand years earlier (and in this scenario, we haven't killed ourselves) who knows what would be possible or not?

maher_tyler
03-09-2009, 06:39 AM
I think it's beyond a shadow of a doubt that life is out there. I think the issue is more about if intelligent civilizations have been able to evolve and if traveling the distance is possible.

I don't think it is. But then again, only a blip ago in our technological evolution ANY space flight was science fiction, and before that, flight.

Had we evolved ten thousand years earlier (and in this scenario, we haven't killed ourselves) who knows what would be possible or not?

According to scientists..the universe is infinite..to think there isn't life out there more inteligant than ours isn't really thinking outside the box..if UFO's are real than obviously their is

Requiem
03-09-2009, 06:45 AM
I've been chased by a UFO. Yes, aliens exist.

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 06:49 AM
I've been chased by a UFO. Yes, aliens exist.

In the interest of open mindedness, do tell, please.

tsiguy96
03-09-2009, 06:52 AM
According to scientists..the universe is infinite..to think there isn't life out there more inteligant than ours isn't really thinking outside the box..if UFO's are real than obviously their is

thats not what ive heard. its more like a huge circle from what i understand, if you had a long enough time period (which is almost indescribable given the size of the universe) if you were to go in a straight line for long enough, you would eventually end up back in the same spot, possibly. of course they will never know for sure, they also say the universe is still expanding...

Bob's your Information Minister
03-09-2009, 07:00 AM
I'm reading this at the moment:

http://www.amazon.com/Close-Encounters-Fourth-Kind-Conference/dp/0140195270

Domostick
03-09-2009, 07:01 AM
In all certainty they exist, however whether they have the means to travel faster than the speed of light needed to visit us is highly unlikely.

Of course there may be some civilizations highly intelligent that do have the means to move space time itself while there may be some less intelligent or lack the technology.

socalorado
03-09-2009, 07:04 AM
In all certainty they exist, however whether they have the means to travel faster than the speed of light needed to visit us is highly unlikely.
Of course there may be some civilizations highly intelligent that do have the means to move space time itself while there may be some less intelligent or lack the technology.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2085/2079118961_08150e7b12.jpg

Man-Goblin
03-09-2009, 07:07 AM
I seem to remember from my astronomy classes in college that if one were to travel at the speed of light, there is a theory that time would essentially stand still for them. But I'm too lazy to research it.

socalorado
03-09-2009, 07:11 AM
I seem to remember from my astronomy classes in college that if one were to travel at the speed of light, there is a theory that time would essentially stand still for them. But I'm too lazy to research it.
http://www.videodetective.com/photos/130/00548404_.jpg

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 07:12 AM
http://www.videodetective.com/photos/130/00548404_.jpg

Okay, out ya go.

socalorado
03-09-2009, 07:15 AM
Okay, out ya go.

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/288229.jpg
CRIPES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Los Broncos
03-09-2009, 07:21 AM
Something or someone has to be out there, not everyone can be lying.

MileHighMagic
03-09-2009, 07:27 AM
I posted this a couple years ago in a similar thread:


This may sound crazy but I saw something unexplainable when I was a freshman in college. I was playin ball in TX and my roommate and I were asleep in our dorm room when we were awakened by a ball of light kind of staring at us. We woke up at the same exact time and as soon as we did it flew out the window. My buddy jumped outta bed towards the window and I just sat, shocked and confused in bed. The strangest part about it was that we didn't say anything to each other that night. The next morning I woke up and assumed it was a dream until we had the same story. Craziest thing I have ever seen.

HILife
03-09-2009, 07:27 AM
I have no dought there is life on other planets. Now, weither that life is smart enough to build a space ship and fly light years to earth is a whole other matter.

HILife
03-09-2009, 07:29 AM
I posted this a couple years ago in a similar thread:

It was probably a stoker. Meet any crazy women........or man, lately?

HILife
03-09-2009, 07:36 AM
http://www.videodetective.com/photos/130/00548404_.jpg

Hilarious! :spit: It is true.....in theory. I'm not a scientist, but my favorite science was always physics and anything space related. I've watched a lot of space shows on the science channels and they talk about that. I think it was a theory Einstein came up with, maybe Special relativity.......I think. This time slowing down thing is partly how GPS work. Something about the clocks on satellite are a little ahead or a little behind. I can't remember.

crowebomber
03-09-2009, 07:42 AM
if earth was 1 meter from the sun, earth would be 150 miles away from the nearest star. we will never know about life anywhere else, simply because im not sold that life can sustain itself long enough for us to find out about it. universe is billions of years old and so big its not possible to fathom. im sure at some point in the universe there was life somewhere, there may be now still, but its simply too big and too old for us to know.

Time is relative. A fruitfly's lifespan is about 24 hours. Do you think a fruitfly can fathom something living for 100 years? So, why shouldn't we fathom something living for 10,000 years? And if that were the case, why couldn't some creature spend 100 years of its life traveling? That would be like us spending about a year traveling.

socalorado
03-09-2009, 07:43 AM
Hilarious! :spit: It is true.....in theory. I'm not a scientist, but my favorite science was always physics and anything space related. I've watched a lot of space shows on the science channels and they talk about that. I think it was a theory Einstein came up with, maybe Special relativity.......I think. This time slowing down thing is partly how GPS work. Something about the clocks on satellite are a little ahead or a little behind. I can't remember.

You mean that time is a physical property? That it slows down and speeds up? Not so much that we notice, but on an atomic level?
Hmmm, yes i think your onto something.

bronco militia
03-09-2009, 07:46 AM
8')

Kaylore
03-09-2009, 07:51 AM
There's some aliens in this thread:

dought, stoker


What planet are these from?

Pony Boy
03-09-2009, 08:06 AM
I posted this a couple years ago in a similar thread:

Quote:
This may sound crazy but I saw something unexplainable when I was a freshman in college. I was playin ball in TX and my roommate and I were asleep in our dorm room when we were awakened by a ball of light kind of staring at us. We woke up at the same exact time and as soon as we did it flew out the window. My buddy jumped outta bed towards the window and I just sat, shocked and confused in bed. The strangest part about it was that we didn't say anything to each other that night. The next morning I woke up and assumed it was a dream until we had the same story. Craziest thing I have ever seen.

The "Hallaucinogenic Drugs" were a lot better back in our college days!!!!

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 08:07 AM
Okay, so being a skeptic by nature, I find even just the concept of alien life visiting this planet nearly impossible just by the sheer distance involved alone.

That being said, I'm starting to become a hobbyist because some of these sightings, experiences, etc come from credible people and seem to defy any other explanation (atmospheric reflections, military excercises, etc). AND that UFO Hunters show is a great time killer.

So... what do people generally think?

(Please refrain from any usually obligatory google image photos, and any Mexican jokes)

While I refuse to believe in ETs and UFOs visiting Earth, esp. on a regular basis, I am much like you in that I've had a good friend swear up and down that he's seen a UFO. He has no reason at all to make up this story. Basically, he's a Kansas farm kid who saw something he could not explain.

For me, I'm the type that can rationalize just about anything. However, if I do see a UFO, I'm gonna be the guy out of the car, chasing it down, wanting to know just what the hell is going on...

baja
03-09-2009, 08:10 AM
http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=billy%20ufo&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#

Broncoman13
03-09-2009, 08:11 AM
Btw, let me suffix with, I've never seen anything. And I do think it's curious that the majority of sightings do seem to take place around nukes.

Never seen anything? What about that PM you sent talking about being abducted, probed, and the sexual thing you thought was just a dream but are now starting to wonder??? Hope that wasn't supposed to be a secret...

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 08:14 AM
I really doubt that UFOs in the traditional sense exist. For a number of reasons it is unlikely that a small vessel could travel the distance it would have to between stars and also be equipped to handle flying in our atmosphere. I also find it unlikely that a species intelligent enough to conquer interstellar spacetravel would show up here in a tiny little vessel, abduct a few people, hover over forests and then disappear. I think if a species intelligent enough to come here, they would either observe us without being noticed, make contact early on (here I am talking about propper contact, sweeping EM band messages, message carrying propes etc. or just make war on us right away.

The other reason I have to be skeptical is that there is no GOOD evidence. A crashed UFO on display at the Smithsonian or good in focus videos and pictures. I think a good example is the Concord crash at Paris or the Tower crashes, they have good videos of those, so how come every time someone whips out a camera and aims it at a supposed UFO it is badly blurred and out of focus? if people can catch spontaneous plane crashes in good focus and light, then the same should be true for UFOs at least some of the time.

The reason I am most skeptical is that we have never been able to find a UFO coming here, we always see them on earth, but how did they make it here? we have never detected radiation trails, blackbody radiation, combustion trails or anything outside the atmosphere. They had to come from that way, so it stands to reason that we would either see them come down in broad daylight or would be able to detect them because they would approach from the opposite direction from the sun.

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 08:22 AM
http://video.google.com/videosearch?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=billy%20ufo&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wv#

Never heard of billy meier. Briefly popped open the wikipedia on him (granted not a world class source), and seems to be conclusively a pile of bull****.

maher_tyler
03-09-2009, 08:22 AM
thats not what ive heard. its more like a huge circle from what i understand, if you had a long enough time period (which is almost indescribable given the size of the universe) if you were to go in a straight line for long enough, you would eventually end up back in the same spot, possibly. of course they will never know for sure, they also say the universe is still expanding...

I dunno..just what they were saying on some show on the discovery channel..but also were talking about the universe being a giant bubble like you say...a lot of crazy shows and theories they have on there thats for sure...like the one they i watched a couple of days ago on how they think there are 4 different dimensions...

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 08:24 AM
Never seen anything? What about that PM you sent talking about being abducted, probed, and the sexual thing you thought was just a dream but are now starting to wonder??? Hope that wasn't supposed to be a secret...

No, no, no.

Read it again.

I'm pretty clear in stating that those are my plans for when we meet up

:rofl:

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 08:30 AM
I really doubt that UFOs in the traditional sense exist. For a number of reasons it is unlikely that a small vessel could travel the distance it would have to between stars and also be equipped to handle flying in our atmosphere. I also find it unlikely that a species intelligent enough to conquer interstellar spacetravel would show up here in a tiny little vessel, abduct a few people, hover over forests and then disappear. I think if a species intelligent enough to come here, they would either observe us without being noticed, make contact early on (here I am talking about propper contact, sweeping EM band messages, message carrying propes etc. or just make war on us right away.

The other reason I have to be skeptical is that there is no GOOD evidence. A crashed UFO on display at the Smithsonian or good in focus videos and pictures. I think a good example is the Concord crash at Paris or the Tower crashes, they have good videos of those, so how come every time someone whips out a camera and aims it at a supposed UFO it is badly blurred and out of focus? if people can catch spontaneous plane crashes in good focus and light, then the same should be true for UFOs at least some of the time.

The reason I am most skeptical is that we have never been able to find a UFO coming here, we always see them on earth, but how did they make it here? we have never detected radiation trails, blackbody radiation, combustion trails or anything outside the atmosphere. They had to come from that way, so it stands to reason that we would either see them come down in broad daylight or would be able to detect them because they would approach from the opposite direction from the sun.

Great post. I agree with just about every bit of this.

I don't buy the abduction stories. Seems like a self-important fantasy for some hick who doesn't get enough attention. However, there seems to be a LOT of first world governments interest in these phenomena, and a LOT of reports about them checking out nuke sites. Maybe in that case they want their presence known? A little "We know what you're doing, ****heads. Don't even think about it."

As for the travel, I also agree, but I'll also know my limitations in that my perception is limited to our current scientific findings (and, naturally, to a much lesser degree than someone immersed in the field). Who's to say there isn't a fourth, fifth, etc dimension that makes such possible? Or some other explanation?

Regardless, every time I watch that stupid show, I find myself buying into the concept more and more.

HILife
03-09-2009, 08:32 AM
You mean that time is a physical property? That it slows down and speeds up? Not so much that we notice, but on an atomic level?
Hmmm, yes i think your onto something.

theory of relativity
http://www.geocities.com/Axiom43/relativity.html


The magic that is Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity

Gort
03-09-2009, 08:40 AM
peoples' belief in aliens from other worlds is due to 40-50 years of science fiction TV and movies. the key word is the second one... science FICTION. there is no science to support this belief, and lots of science to contradict it.

the universe is an immensely big & empty place. the fact is that we can't truly comprehend its scale as humans. even if other life existed elsewhere in the universe, odds are that none of us would ever know about each other because of these vast distances involved.

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/071206-seti-aliens-apart.html

as a species, we've only been broadcasting our existence to the rest of the universe for about 110 years (radio waves). that's not enough time for anyone out there listening to hear them. and we've never heard from any other civilization in the 45 or so years the various SETI initiatives have been in operation. that's 45 years sitting next to a phone that hasn't rung.

so the 2 main problems seem to be 1) how would you know where the other intelligence life is?, and 2) how would you get there?

it's pretty clear to me that we've not been visited by aliens. if you take a leap of faith and believe that such life exists elsewhere, odds are its so far away that they don't yet know we're here and would have no way of getting here anyway.

postulating about fictional dimensions and time travel and wormholes and stuff like that takes us immediately out of the realm of science and into the realm of science fiction, and is not a solid foundation upon which to base any belief.

baja
03-09-2009, 08:42 AM
Never heard of billy meier. Briefly popped open the wikipedia on him (granted not a world class source), and seems to be conclusively a pile of bull****.

Well that makes it easy, guess you have already made up your mind. Don't bother to listen to any of the dozens of videos on Billy Meier before you decide. I even provided a link to one of them. I don't think your quest is serious.


BTW I have seen on two different occassions what I can only explain as UFOs.

socalorado
03-09-2009, 08:44 AM
theory of relativity
http://www.geocities.com/Axiom43/relativity.html


The magic that is Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity

What does this mean? Why are you posting links to wikipedia?

Archer81
03-09-2009, 08:45 AM
peoples' belief in aliens from other worlds is due to 40-50 years of science fiction TV and movies. the key word is the sceond one... science FICTION. there is no science to support this belief, and lots of science to contradict it.

the universe is an immensely big & empty place. the fact is that we can't truly comprehend its scale as humans. even if other life existed elsewhere in the universe, odds are that none of us would ever know about each other because of these vast distances involved.

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/071206-seti-aliens-apart.html

as a species, we've only been broadcasting our existence to the rest of the universe for about 110 years (radio waves). that's not enough time for anyone other there listening to hear them. and we've never heard from any other civilization in the 45 or so years the various SETI initiatives have been in operation. that's 45 years sitting next to a phone that hasn't rung.

so the 2 main problems seem to be 1) how would you know where the other intelligence life is?, and 2) how would you get there?

it's pretty clear to me that we've not been visited by aliens. if you take a leap of faith and believe that such life exists elsewhere, odds are its so far away that they don't yet know we're here and would have no way of getting here anyway.


Used to take months to travel any great distance on earth. Now it can be done in as little as a day, depending on where you are going. I believe the same is true of space flight, and interstellar exploration. Just because we havent done it yet doesnt mean it cant be done ever.

:Broncos:

Gort
03-09-2009, 08:46 AM
Well that makes it easy, guess you have already made up your mind. Don't bother to listen to any of the dozens of videos on Billy Meier before you decide. I even provided a link to one of them. I don't think your quest is serious.


BTW I have seen on two different occassions what I can only explain as UFOs.

a UFO is simply an unidentified flying object. that could be something as simple as a silver frisbee with blinking LEDs glued to it! are you making the leap to say that something you saw in the sky that you didn't recognize was therefore an alien vehicle controlled by aliens from another world? i couldn't find my keys this morning. that doesn't mean a ghost took them and hid them from me... if you see my point.

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 08:48 AM
Well that makes it easy, guess you have already made up your mind. Don't bother to listen to any of the dozens of videos on Billy Meier before you decide. I even provided a link to one of them. I don't think your quest is serious.


BTW I have seen on two different occassions what I can only explain as UFOs.

Well you're the one referring to this as a "quest", not me. I'm just curious.

First off, I'm not going to spend work time involved in a four hour movie recommended by you (last one you passed on was Zeitgeist 2... not exactly launching your credibility). A quick snapshot of this guy has a swiss farmboy saying some special alien race had him performing tasks of personal growth for them, taking him back in time to meet Jesus, and that the aleins looked just like humans... oh and that other alien races were trying to assassinate him.

What about that says, "OMG Sounds so true!"

Gort
03-09-2009, 08:48 AM
Used to take months to travel any great distance on earth. Now it can be done in as little as a day, depending on where you are going. I believe the same is true of space flight, and interstellar exploration. Just because we havent done it yet doesnt mean it cant be done ever.

:Broncos:

we don't violate the laws of physics when we travel by airplane.

even travelling at the speed of light would violate the laws of physics for anything with mass. you're postulating that we will someday travel faster than light. based on what? star trek? battelstar galactica? those are TV shows, not reality.

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 08:48 AM
peoples' belief in aliens from other worlds is due to 40-50 years of science fiction TV and movies. the key word is the second one... science FICTION. there is no science to support this belief, and lots of science to contradict it.

the universe is an immensely big & empty place. the fact is that we can't truly comprehend its scale as humans. even if other life existed elsewhere in the universe, odds are that none of us would ever know about each other because of these vast distances involved.

http://www.space.com/searchforlife/071206-seti-aliens-apart.html

as a species, we've only been broadcasting our existence to the rest of the universe for about 110 years (radio waves). that's not enough time for anyone out there listening to hear them. and we've never heard from any other civilization in the 45 or so years the various SETI initiatives have been in operation. that's 45 years sitting next to a phone that hasn't rung.

so the 2 main problems seem to be 1) how would you know where the other intelligence life is?, and 2) how would you get there?

it's pretty clear to me that we've not been visited by aliens. if you take a leap of faith and believe that such life exists elsewhere, odds are its so far away that they don't yet know we're here and would have no way of getting here anyway.

postulating about fictional dimensions and time travel and wormholes and stuff like that takes us immediately out of the realm of science and into the realm of science fiction, and is not a solid foundation upon which to base any belief.

That is actually to a large extend true, if you go back in media history you will find no mention of aliens, UFOs, space ships, abduction, sightings etc. prior to world war II. Interestingly the whole phenomenon pops up in the media simultaneously with the beginning of advanced aviation and space flight research.

I have no doubt that the initial wave of sightings etc. were experimental air crafts that people just couldn't understand and so believed they were extra terrestrial. The same pattern is true for the Loch Ness Monster, as soon as someone burst the bubble, sightings started to come in often, but before then nobody had ever seen or heard anything.

alkemical
03-09-2009, 08:49 AM
Hmm... interesting thread.


There's enough "oddness" that has happened that not all are fakes, cooks, etc.

What they are, who t f knows....

But i'm highly interested in it and love the work that linda howe does on her earth files site - i'm also interested in the "drones"....

Rock Chalk
03-09-2009, 08:51 AM
I seem to remember from my astronomy classes in college that if one were to travel at the speed of light, there is a theory that time would essentially stand still for them. But I'm too lazy to research it.

You cannot go the speed of light. Matter cannot anyway.

But if you could, you are correct. Time is relative to the observer. While you travelled for 1 year (earth time) at the speed of light, no time would have passed for you. While those back on earht, 1 year would have passed. You would be 1 light year from Earth, and 1 year younger than everyone that stayed on Earth. For you, the travel time would be instant.

Its called time dilation. The closer to the speed of light you get, the slower time moves for you. There is a theoretical way around this, one that does not pervert the laws of physics. Space warping. While matter cannot reach or exceed the speed of light, nothing in relativistic physics states that space itself cannot move faster than the speed of light. This is how Star Trek creator Gene Roddenbury developed the warp drive. Each ship is enveloped in a spacetime bubble which itself moves faster than the speed of light. The ship itself has no motive power (unless impulse engines are one) and thus suffers no time dilation effects. Star Trek, while science fiction, is still based on scientific theory.

It is said that if you could get in a ship and accelerate forever you would still never reach the speed of light but if you could accelerate to 99% the speed of light and then continue incrementtally (99.9, 99.99, 99.999, 99.9999, etc) you could travel the entire universe in 12 years relative to your time while it would take you billions of years relative to earth time.

Archer81
03-09-2009, 08:52 AM
we don't violate the laws of physics when we travel by airplane.

even travelling at the speed of light would violate the laws of physics for anything with mass. you're postulating that we will someday travel faster than light. based on what? star trek? battelstar galactica? those are TV shows, not reality.


You miss my point, and it has nothing to do with Star Trek. You say it defies the laws of physics, but only as far as mankind currently understands them. Flight used to be considered impossible until we did it. Now its common.


:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 08:54 AM
I do believe there are more than 3 dimensions. That's just unconcious knowledge, it's innate.

Logic along dictates more than three dimensions. The first dimension is kinda hard to imaging but basically it is a dot dragged in one of two ways: left or right. This act of movement creates a one dimensional universe. Two dimensions is this same point or dot now moving left/right and backwords/forwards. The two dimensional universe is easier to understand because we see it all the time, on paper.

A good way to think about the 4 dimension is to pretend you are a 2 dimensional being. Without a conscious understanding of the 3rd dimension, if you are a being living in a 2 dimensional universe, all you can percieve is flat plane in which you can move left or right, backwards and forwards. You cannot move or look up or down, because there is no such thing. There is no depth perception in the second dimension.

So, lets say one day you are sitting there in your 2 dimensional universe and all of a sudden, something magically appears in front of you. It came out of nowhere, it just appeared in front of you. Your like, wow, where'd that come from?

Well, it came from above or below you. It came from the third dimension.

We are 3 dimensional beings. We don't have an understanding of the 4th dimension. Therefore, when something appears to us out of the 4th dimension, we have a real hard time understanding what we are seeing.

Some believe the 4th dimension is the removal of Time. I happen to agree. Time is a permanent part of our 3 dimensional universe, we are anchored to it. However, in the 4th dimension, time is not rigid.

Archer81
03-09-2009, 08:54 AM
That is actually to a large extend true, if you go back in media history you will find no mention of aliens, UFOs, space ships, abduction, sightings etc. prior to world war II. Interestingly the whole phenomenon pops up in the media simultaneously with the beginning of advanced aviation and space flight research.

I have no doubt that the initial wave of sightings etc. were experimental air crafts that people just couldn't understand and so believed they were extra terrestrial. The same pattern is true for the Loch Ness Monster, as soon as someone burst the bubble, sightings started to come in often, but before then nobody had ever seen or heard anything.



Renaisance artwork has images of "comets" in the sky that look similar to modern UFO sightings. Its not just a modern phenomenon.

:Broncos:

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 08:54 AM
That is actually to a large extend true, if you go back in media history you will find no mention of aliens, UFOs, space ships, abduction, sightings etc. prior to world war II. Interestingly the whole phenomenon pops up in the media simultaneously with the beginning of advanced aviation and space flight research.

I have no doubt that the initial wave of sightings etc. were experimental air crafts that people just couldn't understand and so believed they were extra terrestrial. The same pattern is true for the Loch Ness Monster, as soon as someone burst the bubble, sightings started to come in often, but before then nobody had ever seen or heard anything.

True, but there are a ton of even BC writings that could be interpreted as modern UFOs. Alexander the great wrote about a burning metal shield from the heavens overhead. Then there's the whole "early astronauts" debate over mankinds "God's".

Nessy's cool too. I love how the video turned out to be the hoaxer's kid's toy submarine.

I think the burst of it post WWII could be related just as much to the development of nuclear weapons as it could media invention and some mass hysteria side effect.

Gort
03-09-2009, 08:58 AM
That is actually to a large extend true, if you go back in media history you will find no mention of aliens, UFOs, space ships, abduction, sightings etc. prior to world war II. Interestingly the whole phenomenon pops up in the media simultaneously with the beginning of advanced aviation and space flight research.

I have no doubt that the initial wave of sightings etc. were experimental air crafts that people just couldn't understand and so believed they were extra terrestrial. The same pattern is true for the Loch Ness Monster, as soon as someone burst the bubble, sightings started to come in often, but before then nobody had ever seen or heard anything.

my only caveat is that we may not be equipped (mentally) to really understand the true nature of the universe (and time/space). if some of the weirder hypotheses from string theory are/were true, then all bets are off. quantum physics certainly shows us that at the very smallest level, things behave in ways that make little observation sense to us (humans). maybe 500 hundred years from now, mankind will be equipped with a much refined understanding of the laws of physics that give us a better insight into the true nature of the universe... i don't know. all i know is that we can only rely on the understanding that we have now. as of right now, there is nothing in our understanding (based on the cumulative knowlegde of every great thinker and scientist and mathematician who has come before us) of the way the universe works that leads us to believe travel over such immense distances is possible in short periods of time.

Gort
03-09-2009, 09:04 AM
You miss my point, and it has nothing to do with Star Trek. You say it defies the laws of physics, but only as far as mankind currently understands them. Flight used to be considered impossible until we did it. Now its common.


:Broncos:

once you invent a faster than light airplane, show the world and i think the world's scientists will happily amend the laws of physics accordingly. until that point, it's science fiction.

remember that science is based on observation. we don't know that the speed of light is the upper limit. it's just that every experiment ever devised has failed to accelerate anything faster than that speed. you can't hang your hat on possible future discoveries as a basis for this argument. they may never be made...

Archer81
03-09-2009, 09:06 AM
once you invent a faster than light airplane, show the world and i think the world's scientists will happily amend the laws of physics accordingly. until that point, it's science fiction.

remember that science is based on observation. we don't know that the speed of light is the upper limit. it's just that every experiment ever devised has failed to accelerate anything faster than that speed. you can't hang your hat on possible future discoveries as a basis for this argument. they may never be made...


Not hanging my hat on anything. Our understanding of how everything works is constantly changing. Nothing is ever written is stone. My original point was simply because we have not been able to do something, like travel at the speed of light or faster, doesnt mean its not possible.

:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 09:09 AM
my only caveat is that we may not be equipped (mentally) to really understand the true nature of the universe (and time/space). if some of the weirder hypotheses from string theory are/were true, then all bets are off. quantum physics certainly shows us that at the very smallest level, things behave in ways that make little observation sense to us (humans). maybe 500 hundred years from now, mankind will be equipped with a much refined understanding of the laws of physics that give us a better insight into the true nature of the universe... i don't know. all i know is that we can only rely on the understanding that we have now. as of right now, there is nothing in our understanding (based on the cumulative knowlegde of every great thinker and scientist and mathematician who has come before us) of the way the universe works that leads us to believe travel over such immense distances is possible in short periods of time.

I have a hard time with cosmologists and scientists who are trying to understand our universe and justify universal laws to create human beings. It's a bunch of crap.

I simply say we are trapped in 3 dimensions and therefore our perception of the universe is limited to 3 dimensions. We can't piece it all together until we can at least understand the 4th dimension. Once that happens, we'll be one step closer to understanding how the comsos works. Until then, we are rats in a maze.

Gort
03-09-2009, 09:15 AM
Not hanging my hat on anything. Our understanding of how everything works is constantly changing. Nothing is ever written is stone. My original point was simply because we have not been able to do something, like travel at the speed of light or faster, doesnt mean its not possible.

:Broncos:

that's wrong. it's not constantly changing. it's constantly being refined. big difference. the laws of physics as we know them will always be correct in the future. it's just that we may discover some scenarios where they do not adequately describe things. for example, in the world of the very very small, we need quantum physics to explain behavior that cannot be predicted by conventional newtonian physics. but the world of the very very large is pretty well understood.

the next big advance will be the unified field theory, but that will not have any impact on this argument. that will simply make the laws as we know them easier to express as special cases of one another.

Archer81
03-09-2009, 09:17 AM
that's wrong. it's not constantly changing. it's constantly being refined. big difference. the laws of physics as we know them will always be correct in the future. it's just that we may discover some scenarios where they do not adequately describe things. for example, in the world of the very very small, we need quantum physics to explain behavior that cannot be predicted by conventional newtonian physics. but the world of the very very large is pretty well understood.

the next big advance will be the unified field theory, but that will not have any impact on this argument. that will simply make the laws as we know them easier to express as special cases of one another.


You refine something, you change it. But I think we have strayed from the original thesis. If aliens exist, why would they come here?

:Broncos:

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 09:18 AM
You miss my point, and it has nothing to do with Star Trek. You say it defies the laws of physics, but only as far as mankind currently understands them. Flight used to be considered impossible until we did it. Now its common.


:Broncos:

We knew flying was possible, birds and bees did it. We just didn't know how.

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 09:25 AM
True, but there are a ton of even BC writings that could be interpreted as modern UFOs. Alexander the great wrote about a burning metal shield from the heavens overhead. Then there's the whole "early astronauts" debate over mankinds "God's".

Nessy's cool too. I love how the video turned out to be the hoaxer's kid's toy submarine.

I think the burst of it post WWII could be related just as much to the development of nuclear weapons as it could media invention and some mass hysteria side effect.

I don't put much faith in BC writings, we know that comets, shooting stars, eclipses etc caused widespread panic. In their mental framework anything from the sky would be from heaven.

I have big doubts about the early astronauts, it just seems unreasonable that they would happen to be in so many places. Religious beliefs developed pretty independently across the world, often with common denominators (coming from above). I think it is more reasonable to assume that people being unable to explain a lot of phenomena that happens in the sky (lightning, eclipses, comets, shooting stars, cloud formations, hail etc.) had to figure that someone was responsible for it.

I agree that the post WW2 hysteria goes a long way towards explaining a lot of observations.

Recently there was a bright meteorite that crashed in Denmark, and that led to a lot of calls about UFOs. I think the fear that was pervasive during the cold war has led to this fear of everything. People are willing to assume a UFO ahead of far more logical and reasonable explanations out of fear.

Gort
03-09-2009, 09:25 AM
You refine something, you change it. But I think we have strayed from the original thesis. If aliens exist, why would they come here?

:Broncos:

if they exist (big if) and if they could get here (big if), it seems to me there are only 3 reasons to come here.

1) curiousity. the aliens are indifferent to our existence and simply want to learn about us.
2) benevolence. the aliens actively seek to befriend and help us.
3) malevolence. the aliens actively seek to enslave/destroy/eat us and exploit our planet for resources.

it seems to me that the people advocating such projects as SETI don't spend enough time considering option 3).

if some damned alien shows up one day and offers the head of the UN a book titled "To Serve Man", i for one will be scrambling for my shotgun. ;)

Archer81
03-09-2009, 09:27 AM
if they exist (big if) and if they could get here (big if), it seems to me there are only 3 reasons to come here.

1) curiousity. the aliens are indifferent to our existence and simply want to learn about us.
2) benevolence. the aliens actively seek to befriend and help us.
3) malevolence. the aliens actively seek to enslave/destroy/eat us and exploit our planet for resources.

it seems to me that the people advocating such projects as SETI don't spend enough time considering option 3).

if some damned alien shows up one day and offers the head of the UN a book titled "To Serve Man", i for one will be scrambling for my shotgun. ;)

Me and you both.

:Broncos:

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 09:29 AM
I have a hard time with cosmologists and scientists who are trying to understand our universe and justify universal laws to create human beings. It's a bunch of crap.

I simply say we are trapped in 3 dimensions and therefore our perception of the universe is limited to 3 dimensions. We can't piece it all together until we can at least understand the 4th dimension. Once that happens, we'll be one step closer to understanding how the comsos works. Until then, we are rats in a maze.

Time is as well understood as the spatial dimensions for all intends and purposes.

The major issues in terms of cosmology right now is if there are more than 4 dimensions, what are the propperties of the other dimensions, why do we not experience them and what effect do they have on particles?

It has been shown that space and time are connected, and if there are more dimensions it is quite likely that those dimensions would also be connected to space and time.

Gort
03-09-2009, 09:32 AM
I don't put much faith in BC writings, we know that comets, shooting stars, eclipses etc caused widespread panic. In their mental framework anything from the sky would be from heaven.

I have big doubts about the early astronauts, it just seems unreasonable that they would happen to be in so many places. Religious beliefs developed pretty independently across the world, often with common denominators (coming from above). I think it is more reasonable to assume that people being unable to explain a lot of phenomena that happens in the sky (lightning, eclipses, comets, shooting stars, cloud formations, hail etc.) had to figure that someone was responsible for it.

I agree that the post WW2 hysteria goes a long way towards explaining a lot of observations.

Recently there was a bright meteorite that crashed in Denmark, and that led to a lot of calls about UFOs. I think the fear that was pervasive during the cold war has led to this fear of everything. People are willing to assume a UFO ahead of far more logical and reasonable explanations out of fear.

and the Pentagon saw a benefit in keeping these stories around as a cover for any sort of experimental aircraft tests that might be viewed by the public. i think that's the real reason that the US government during the cold war behaved the way it did when asked about UFOs. project blue book was probably a great PR move. it helps fuel the UFO conspiracy nuts even to this day. even though the government said they had no evidence. the fact that they even investigated is enough proof for those desperate to believe. it's a pretty smart strategy actually, because any unexplained sighting can simply be dismissed as flares or weather balloons or whatever. the public fills in the blank and assumes the Pentagon is covering up a UFO, even though the Pentago may well have known that the sighting was of an SR71 or U2 or Stealth bomber undergoing flight tests.

Archer81
03-09-2009, 09:34 AM
We knew flying was possible, birds and bees did it. We just didn't know how.


We knew flying was possible with wings. Not for 2 ton metal airplanes.


:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 09:35 AM
Time is as well understood as the spatial dimensions for all intends and purposes.

The major issues in terms of cosmology right now is if there are more than 4 dimensions, what are the propperties of the other dimensions, why do we not experience them and what effect do they have on particles?

It has been shown that space and time are connected, and if there are more dimensions it is quite likely that those dimensions would also be connected to space and time.

That's a big azzz assumption.

My hole point is we are limited in our understanding of the universe because we are limited in our understanding of the 4th dimension, and consequently, whatever other dimensions there are (5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, etc...).

If aliens do exist, they at least understand the 4th dimension. They have to in order to travel vast distances. IMHO, the 4th dimension is untethered to time.

baja
03-09-2009, 09:55 AM
<b>a UFO is simply an unidentified flying object. that could be something as simple as a silver frisbee with blinking LEDs glued to it! </b>are you making the leap to say that something you saw in the sky that you didn't recognize was therefore an alien vehicle controlled by aliens from another world? i couldn't find my keys this morning. that doesn't mean a ghost took them and hid them from me... if you see my point.

No shiit sherlock.

As to you explaining what I saw without even having a hint of an explanation is fool hardy at best. Tell me do frisbees hover high above the jungles of Mexico and then shoot across the sky at impossible speed.

Or do frisbees have a brilliant glow and follow you across the deserts of Arizona than zip off in the blink of an eye.

HILife
03-09-2009, 09:59 AM
What does this mean? Why are you posting links to wikipedia?

I was looking for links that might better explain what I was trying to say about the speed of light and it's relation to time. I read the first post but the second was to long so I just assumed it would help. Feel free to do what you like with it.

baja
03-09-2009, 10:04 AM
Well you're the one referring to this as a "quest", not me. I'm just curious.

First off, I'm not going to spend work time involved in a four hour movie recommended by you (last one you passed on was Zeitgeist 2... not exactly launching your credibility). A quick snapshot of this guy has a swiss farmboy saying some special alien race had him performing tasks of personal growth for them, taking him back in time to meet Jesus, and that the aleins looked just like humans... oh and that other alien races were trying to assassinate him.

What about that says, "OMG Sounds so true!"

I think you have already made up your mind on this issue so any further meaningful decision about UFOs is pointless or worse a platform for you to ridicule the messenger without even exploring his/her message. Why do you even bother, the world is exactly as you think it is so just go back to work.

baja
03-09-2009, 10:07 AM
we don't violate the laws of physics when we travel by airplane.

even travelling at the speed of light would violate the laws of physics for anything with mass. you're postulating that we will someday travel faster than light. based on what? star trek? battelstar galactica? those are TV shows, not reality.

Or maybe time & space are our own collective creation designed for our own particular life experience that not all life forms are subject to.

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 10:10 AM
I think you have already made up your mind on this issue so any further meaningful decision about UFOs is pointless or worse a platform for you to ridicule the messenger without even exploring his/her message. Why do you even bother, the world is exactly as you think it is so just go back to work.

No... if anything I've been arguing on the side of it's possibility throughout this thread. All I've said is I'm not going to watch your video at work, and maybe not at all.

Now, if you have some interesting account, or information to relay in this thread, then by all means, please do. Otherwise, you're inviting criticism on yourself, in reality.

baja
03-09-2009, 10:11 AM
That is actually to a large extend true, if you go back in media history you will find no mention of aliens, UFOs, space ships, abduction, sightings etc. prior to world war II. Interestingly the whole phenomenon pops up in the media simultaneously with the beginning of advanced aviation and space flight research.

I have no doubt that the initial wave of sightings etc. were experimental air crafts that people just couldn't understand and so believed they were extra terrestrial. The same pattern is true for the Loch Ness Monster, as soon as someone burst the bubble, sightings started to come in often, but before then nobody had ever seen or heard anything.

Images of aliens and space ships are found in cave drawings thousands of years old. Even the Ed Sullivan Show is not that old

baja
03-09-2009, 10:18 AM
We knew flying was possible, birds and bees did it. We just didn't know how.

We still don't know how bees fly.

Broncoman13
03-09-2009, 10:22 AM
No, no, no.

Read it again.

I'm pretty clear in stating that those are my plans for when we meet up

:rofl:


Ahhh, my bad... Simple misunderstanding on my part. Sometimes when attempting to look into a twisted and dilusional person's head this happens!

Broncomutt
03-09-2009, 10:22 AM
Michael Crichton's Sphere, a so-so novel but an interesting concept, begins with the discovery of a spaceship found on the bottom of the ocean bearing markings of the United States of America on it. The perplexing thing is the spaceship crashed there 300 years ago.

UFOs could be future humans who have evolved to the point of looking alien, joyriding through their past.

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 10:26 AM
We still don't know how bees fly.

We do, it has been known for almost 10 years now. They have even made small robots who emulate the way bees fly and they work.

alkemical
03-09-2009, 10:26 AM
I'm highly interested in the "ancient astronaut" theory. I've read many books and texts, etc on it - and there is a level of plausibility i find interesting.

If several different cultures talk of the same thing...

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 10:28 AM
We still don't know how bees fly.

http://www.livescience.com/animals/060110_bee_fight.html

In other news, we landed on the moon.

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 10:29 AM
Images of aliens and space ships are found in cave drawings thousands of years old. Even the Ed Sullivan Show is not that old

Again, if they were in focus I would buy it. It takes quite a bit of a reach to interpret a cave painting as being an alien and a space ship and not just a poorly drawn human. To this day scholars are not sure what scenes many cave paintings depict because of how crudely they are drawn.

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 10:31 AM
and the Pentagon saw a benefit in keeping these stories around as a cover for any sort of experimental aircraft tests that might be viewed by the public. i think that's the real reason that the US government during the cold war behaved the way it did when asked about UFOs. project blue book was probably a great PR move. it helps fuel the UFO conspiracy nuts even to this day. even though the government said they had no evidence. the fact that they even investigated is enough proof for those desperate to believe. it's a pretty smart strategy actually, because any unexplained sighting can simply be dismissed as flares or weather balloons or whatever. the public fills in the blank and assumes the Pentagon is covering up a UFO, even though the Pentago may well have known that the sighting was of an SR71 or U2 or Stealth bomber undergoing flight tests.

Yup, we do know that some people reported the F-117 NightHawk as a UFO when they first saw it because of its odd shape and color. Civilian authorities couldn't confirm it because obviously it is radar cloaked and will generate radar artifacts on most systems.

Gort
03-09-2009, 10:33 AM
Or maybe time & space are our own collective creation designed for our own particular life experience that not all life forms are subject to.

well, if you want to turn this thread into a philosophical debate, then go ahead. it doesn't help answer any question about whether or not there is alien intelligence in this universe. there is NO evidence to suggest there is. none. zero. nada. zip. zilch. much less that it has visited us.

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 10:50 AM
well, if you want to turn this thread into a philosophical debate, then go ahead. it doesn't help answer any question about whether or not there is alien intelligence in this universe. there is NO evidence to suggest there is. none. zero. nada. zip. zilch. much less that it has visited us.

Not necessarily. Something along those lines would definitely be viewed as national security issues by first world nations and be kept above top secret. There COULD very well be evidence. I do get your point though, all we have at the moment is anecdotal evidence, which only goes so far despite it's heavy volume.

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 10:51 AM
If aliens can't understand that it's all ball bearing these days, how they gonna fly a soucer?

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 11:03 AM
Philosophy
In 1783, Kant wrote: "That everywhere space (which is not itself the boundary of another space) has three dimensions and that space in general cannot have more dimensions is based on the proposition that not more than three lines can intersect at right angles in one point. This proposition cannot at all be shown from concepts, but rests immediately on intuition and indeed on pure intuition a priori because it is apodictically (demonstrably) certain."[5]

It's all ball bearings. Um no! It's all dimensions!

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 11:12 AM
Philosophy
In 1783, Kant wrote: "That everywhere space (which is not itself the boundary of another space) has three dimensions and that space in general cannot have more dimensions is based on the proposition that not more than three lines can intersect at right angles in one point. This proposition cannot at all be shown from concepts, but rests immediately on intuition and indeed on pure intuition a priori because it is apodictically (demonstrably) certain."[5]

It's all ball bearings. Um no! It's all dimensions!

Typical philosophical circular logic. One of the axioms of Eucledian space is that three lines can only intersect at right angles in one point. You can define other spacial definitions where such a thing is possible, but they require more dimensions to describe what euclidian space describes so well in 3 dimensions. The whole point of an axiom is of course that it can't be shown from concepts, since the axiom is one of the concepts.

We could chose another convention with more dimensions, but it would be superfluous since 3 dimensions would do an equally good job.

rubaiyat
03-09-2009, 11:14 AM
if earth was 1 meter from the sun, earth would be 150 miles away from the nearest star. we will never know about life anywhere else, simply because im not sold that life can sustain itself long enough for us to find out about it. universe is billions of years old and so big its not possible to fathom. im sure at some point in the universe there was life somewhere, there may be now still, but its simply too big and too old for us to know.

Life or intelligent life? I think that latter might very well be so rare and fleeting to ever find (maybe the ruins of or preintelligent species) at the same time. But I think life, assuming space travel is feasible at all, I think will eventually be found.

maher_tyler
03-09-2009, 11:17 AM
Michael Crichton's Sphere, a so-so novel but an interesting concept, begins with the discovery of a spaceship found on the bottom of the ocean bearing markings of the United States of America on it. The perplexing thing is the spaceship crashed there 300 years ago.

UFOs could be future humans who have evolved to the point of looking alien, joyriding through their past.

That'd be ****in nuts

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 11:18 AM
Typical philosophical circular logic. One of the axioms of Eucledian space is that three lines can only intersect at right angles in one point. You can define other spacial definitions where such a thing is possible, but they require more dimensions to describe what euclidian space describes so well in 3 dimensions. The whole point of an axiom is of course that it can't be shown from concepts, since the axiom is one of the concepts.

We could chose another convention with more dimensions, but it would be superfluous since 3 dimensions would do an equally good job.

So what about the ball bearings? Are you saying Fletch is wrong?

baja
03-09-2009, 11:22 AM
Again, if they were in focus I would buy it. It takes quite a bit of a reach to interpret a cave painting as being an alien and a space ship and not just a poorly drawn human. To this day scholars are not sure what scenes many cave paintings depict because of how crudely they are drawn.

If we were talking a few renderings here and there that would be one thing but given the number of these paintings and their likeness to one another even though there is a diversity of locations over a large cross over of civilizations. .

http://a860.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/33/l_07fdff78c130ecb591e8aa53680e40f3.jpg


http://www.h4ppy.com/blog/uploaded_images/Jebel%20Acacus%20Cave%20paintings%203-756757.JPG

http://www.alien-ufo-pictures.com/wandjina.jpg

alkemical
03-09-2009, 11:23 AM
Michael Crichton's Sphere, a so-so novel but an interesting concept, begins with the discovery of a spaceship found on the bottom of the ocean bearing markings of the United States of America on it. The perplexing thing is the spaceship crashed there 300 years ago.

UFOs could be future humans who have evolved to the point of looking alien, joyriding through their past.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1096959/Mystery-century-old-Swiss-watch-discovered-ancient-tomb-sealed-400-years.html

Mystery as century-old Swiss watch discovered in ancient tomb sealed for 400 years

By Cher Thornhill
Last updated at 4:34 PM on 18th December 2008

* Comments (176)
* Add to My Stories

Archaeologists are stumped after finding a 100-year-old Swiss watch in an ancient tomb that was sealed more than 400 years ago.

They believed they were the first to visit the Ming dynasty grave in Shangsi, southern China, since its occupant's funeral.

But inside they uncovered a miniature watch in the shape of a ring marked 'Swiss' that is thought to be just a century old.


The mysterious timepiece was encrusted in mud and rock and had stopped at 10:06 am.

Watches were not around at the time of the Ming Dynasty and Switzerland did not even exist as a country, an expert pointed out.

The archaeologists were filming a documentary with two journalists when they made the puzzling discovery.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/17/article-1096959-02D4C469000005DC-328_468x299.jpg

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 11:39 AM
If we were talking a few renderings here and there that would be one thing but given the number of these paintings and their likeness to one another even though there is a diversity of locations over a large cross over of civilizations. .

http://a860.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/33/l_07fdff78c130ecb591e8aa53680e40f3.jpg


http://www.h4ppy.com/blog/uploaded_images/Jebel%20Acacus%20Cave%20paintings%203-756757.JPG

http://www.alien-ufo-pictures.com/wandjina.jpg

I don't see how that is evidence of anything but the value of art classes. There are no space ships or aliens in those pictures.

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 11:39 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1096959/Mystery-century-old-Swiss-watch-discovered-ancient-tomb-sealed-400-years.html

Mystery as century-old Swiss watch discovered in ancient tomb sealed for 400 years

By Cher Thornhill
Last updated at 4:34 PM on 18th December 2008

* Comments (176)
* Add to My Stories

Archaeologists are stumped after finding a 100-year-old Swiss watch in an ancient tomb that was sealed more than 400 years ago.

They believed they were the first to visit the Ming dynasty grave in Shangsi, southern China, since its occupant's funeral.

But inside they uncovered a miniature watch in the shape of a ring marked 'Swiss' that is thought to be just a century old.


The mysterious timepiece was encrusted in mud and rock and had stopped at 10:06 am.

Watches were not around at the time of the Ming Dynasty and Switzerland did not even exist as a country, an expert pointed out.

The archaeologists were filming a documentary with two journalists when they made the puzzling discovery.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/12/17/article-1096959-02D4C469000005DC-328_468x299.jpg

Two simple explanations for this puzzling discovery: 1. someone else was in the tomb before these guys (wow, ya think?) and 2. the tiny watch matriculated it's way into the tomb via shifting soils, substrate above the tomb. In other words, it was dropped or lost and worked its way down into the tomb via natural causes.

alkemical
03-09-2009, 12:06 PM
Two simple explanations for this puzzling discovery: 1. someone else was in the tomb before these guys (wow, ya think?) and 2. the tiny watch matriculated it's way into the tomb via shifting soils, substrate above the tomb. In other words, it was dropped or lost and worked its way down into the tomb via natural causes.

1-b. Time travel!

;)

alkemical
03-09-2009, 12:13 PM
http://theheavystuff.com/?p=100

Aliens/Entities Objectified - Are There Four Types?

Hello, and welcome back to The Heavy Stuff (THS) - a blog to bookmark if you want speculation into realities greatest mysteries. Today’s posting is an offshoot of THS’s post earlier last month http://theheavystuff.com/?p=99 - having to do with just how strange the whole `ufo’ experience can be to an individual or even a group of individuals. It was in that post that THS speculated that occasionally, and perhaps often, a `UFO experience’ may involve `different types’ of entities.

THS, when mentioning different entity types, wasn’t referring about the internet speculation (with some added fantasy perhaps) that multiple alien races are here, permenantly, in Earth’s biosphere and are probably interacting with humans (some say dozens of races). No, what THS was and is referring to is `spaces’* (entities) which do not have an equal `basis’ of `common reality’ grounding - compared to a human. (Wordy, THS knows, but we will get much more specific in a bit.) Let THS attempt to explain:

[* Remember, much of the Phillips Phenomenology (PP) positions `space’ as a characteristic which must be actualized for an event to occur. The PP describes `different types of spaces’ - and where they occur.]

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 12:21 PM
http://theheavystuff.com/?p=100

Aliens/Entities Objectified - Are There Four Types?

Hello, and welcome back to The Heavy Stuff (THS) - a blog to bookmark if you want speculation into realities greatest mysteries. Today’s posting is an offshoot of THS’s post earlier last month http://theheavystuff.com/?p=99 - having to do with just how strange the whole `ufo’ experience can be to an individual or even a group of individuals. It was in that post that THS speculated that occasionally, and perhaps often, a `UFO experience’ may involve `different types’ of entities.

THS, when mentioning different entity types, wasn’t referring about the internet speculation (with some added fantasy perhaps) that multiple alien races are here, permenantly, in Earth’s biosphere and are probably interacting with humans (some say dozens of races). No, what THS was and is referring to is `spaces’* (entities) which do not have an equal `basis’ of `common reality’ grounding - compared to a human. (Wordy, THS knows, but we will get much more specific in a bit.) Let THS attempt to explain:

[* Remember, much of the Phillips Phenomenology (PP) positions `space’ as a characteristic which must be actualized for an event to occur. The PP describes `different types of spaces’ - and where they occur.]

I don't get it. I thought The Heavy Stuff was Wild Turkey 101. Or is that The Good Stuff or The Strong Stuff? :yayaya:

Rock Chalk
03-09-2009, 12:44 PM
we don't violate the laws of physics when we travel by airplane.

even travelling at the speed of light would violate the laws of physics for anything with mass. you're postulating that we will someday travel faster than light. based on what? star trek? battelstar galactica? those are TV shows, not reality.

Star Trek is based on scientific theory. Much of it is anyway.

Nothing with mass can travel motively at or faster than the speed of light...as far as we know. Einstein was wrong on several accounts however (the cosmological constant for example, a static universe for another example) so it is entirely possible that he is wrong on that. Not likely, but possible.

But spacetime itself can move faster than the speed of light and Star Trek uses THAT concept of warping spacetime to travel faster than light.

The problems with doing this are immense at the moment. The amount of energy required would enormous, not to mention we have no idea how to build a machine capable of warping spacetime itself. As far as human knowledge goes right now, the ONLY thing capable of warping spacetime is a sufficient amount of mass (i.e., planets, stars, etc).

That concept is not far fetched though and theoretically possible. Once humans figure out what gravity is, exactly why it is connected with matter, how to unify it to electro-magnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces and how to manipulate it (which quantum physics tends to lean towards a possibility, though the standard model suggests not), that will go a long way to creating devices that are capable of warping spacetime enough as a means to travel "faster than light" (even though this is a misnomer, as the ship itself would have little to no motive power of its own but would move space itself).

There is also the possibility of creating artificial wormholes which all scientists believe are possible (at least natural ones).

We are barely 200 years into the technological era of human civilization. Given 10,000 years, or even 1,000 years, we may have all of this figured out. If Dark energy does exist and we can tap into the practically infinite amounts of energy that there is, we could eventually create a device that would allow for it.

IF Aliens exist and have come here, you can bet that they are thousands, not hundreds, but thousands of years more advanced than us and those seeking to grab their shotguns may as well grab a straw and paper and hurl spitballs at them.

Now I believe intelligent life is out there. I dont believe it has been here. 1) We exist in a fairly remote portion of the galaxy. The density of stars here is sparse compared to most of the rest of the galaxy. 2) There are 100 BILLION stars to explore in this galaxy, and unless said alien life just happens to be close by, the odds of them finding us are remote at best. 3) We are still a primitive species compared to any interstellar capable species and may not be worth interacting with yet. We could offer them nothing in their search for whatever it is they are searching for (and if they are out there travelling the stars, they are searching for something...answers? meaning of life? who knows).

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 12:48 PM
We could offer them nothing in their search for whatever it is they are searching for (and if they are out there travelling the stars, they are searching for something...answers? meaning of life? who knows).

Completely incorrect. I'm pretty damn sure we have the hot pussy market cornered.

Rock Chalk
03-09-2009, 12:56 PM
Completely incorrect. I'm pretty damn sure we have the hot p***Y market cornered.

Would you consider ****ing a chimpanzee?

What would make you think that the males of an advanced civilization would? Afterall, we would be the equivalent of a chimpanzee to them.

Unles of course they enjoy fake tits. In which case we do have that market cornered.

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 12:59 PM
Would you consider ****ing a chimpanzee?

If it looked like this?

YES

http://str8hoops.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/adriana-lima.jpg

Requiem
03-09-2009, 12:59 PM
Was playin' golf at my old elementary school back in the day, probably seventh grade with my buddies Chuck, Cody and Brent. Was gettin' to be about 7 PM, sun going down -- gettin' dark. Had those florescent balls to see where our drives were going. All of a sudden, this ship thing is in the sky, couple thousand feet in the air -- maybe ten thousand feet. It's not flying like a normal plane, it had several flashing colors and it went parrallel to us as we moved. We ran the **** back to Cody's house four blocks down and that thing stayed with us the whole way. It was nuts. All of us to this day maintain that was alien ****. We was too young to be tripping balls. I swear to God that happened. It was nuts. I think had I been timed for a 40 yard dash I'd of ran sub 4.0. Mamma never could get the skiddies out mah undies.

vancejohnson82
03-09-2009, 01:13 PM
Was playin' golf at my old elementary school back in the day, probably seventh grade with my buddies Chuck, Cody and Brent. Was gettin' to be about 7 PM, sun going down -- gettin' dark. Had those florescent balls to see where our drives were going. All of a sudden, this ship thing is in the sky, couple thousand feet in the air -- maybe ten thousand feet. It's not flying like a normal plane, it had several flashing colors and it went parrallel to us as we moved. We ran the **** back to Cody's house four blocks down and that thing stayed with us the whole way. It was nuts. All of us to this day maintain that was alien ****. We was too young to be tripping balls. I swear to God that happened. It was nuts. I think had I been timed for a 40 yard dash I'd of ran sub 4.0. Mamma never could get the skiddies out mah undies.

I had a similar experience....driving my car out in the farms of southern jersey....this thing was up over the landscape out in front of me....kept driving, didnt really pay attention to it until i got within about 300 yards of it...much smaller than i had really ever pictured and as I drove it moved out in front of me keeping the same distance....i thought maybe it was a balloon or some sort of farming device (im a city kid) and wasnt real nervous until i saw that it was metal....

i stopped the car immediately and had to catch my breath...and it just flat out disappeared at that moment...

weirdest thing that's ever happened to me....

mr007
03-09-2009, 01:13 PM
if they exist (big if) and if they could get here (big if), it seems to me there are only 3 reasons to come here.

1) curiousity. the aliens are indifferent to our existence and simply want to learn about us.
2) benevolence. the aliens actively seek to befriend and help us.
3) malevolence. the aliens actively seek to enslave/destroy/eat us and exploit our planet for resources.

it seems to me that the people advocating such projects as SETI don't spend enough time considering option 3).

if some damned alien shows up one day and offers the head of the UN a book titled "To Serve Man", i for one will be scrambling for my shotgun. ;)

I think the whole "if they exist" thing is pretty silly. I would say they undoubtedly exist, the only real question is how in the hell would they ever find us or vice versa.

Even if the entire universe was listening for our radio waves, we would have reached less than .00000001% of space by our 45 years of broadcasting.

FireFly
03-09-2009, 02:04 PM
In all certainty they exist, however whether they have the means to travel faster than the speed of light needed to visit us is highly unlikely.

Of course there may be some civilizations highly intelligent that do have the means to move space time itself while there may be some less intelligent or lack the technology.

I concur. Beyond a shadow of reasonable doubt in my mind. There are probably millions of civilizations out there.

Billions of stars just like our one. Trillions of planetary systems just like our one. Don't just think about our galaxy think about the BILLIONS of galaxies in our universe.

Honestly, what makes our patch of dirt so special?

I can't fathom a reasonable and intelligent human arguing against this logic.

Moon§hiner
03-09-2009, 02:18 PM
I think the whole "if they exist" thing is pretty silly. I would say they undoubtedly exist, the only real question is how in the hell would they ever find us or vice versa.

Even if the entire universe was listening for our radio waves, we would have reached less than .00000001% of space by our 45 years of broadcasting.

So we would be the MSNBC of outer space?

Gort
03-09-2009, 02:39 PM
Honestly, what makes our patch of dirt so special?

easy. it's the only place in the whole universe where we have evidence that life (chiefs fans) and intelligent life (broncos fans) exist.

there is no other place for which that can be said.

just because there are billions and billions and billions of stars out there doesn't mean that there is any extraterrestrial life. it takes a leap of faith for one to say that... no different than religion. if you believe it to be the case then that's fine. but until you can PROVE it, you are no different than those folks waiting for a spaceship in the hale-bopp comet to come and take them away. science requires proof. probabilities and statistics are not proof because we don't know that life is merely the result a random processes once you have all the component building blocks. maybe it is. but that has to be proven as well. so far, it has not been. not even close.

Gort
03-09-2009, 02:45 PM
I can't fathom a reasonable and intelligent human arguing against this logic.

i don't mean to insult you, but that's one of the dumbest things i've ever seen written here. your argument is that your assertion is true, even though there is no proof whatsoever, simply because you can't comprehend it not being true. if you believe life to be a random process, then please combine carbon and oxygen and water and whatever else you want in a petry dish and bring it to life and prove it scientifically. but, if you can't explain a random process that results in life, then you cannot use the assumption that such a process exists to prove using statistics and probabilities that such a process is likely to have occurred elsewhere and brought forth extraterrestrial life. you just cannot do it. it fails the smell test. you can BELIEVE that life exists elsewhere and that's fine with me. but it's quite reasonable for me to disagree with that belief.

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 02:51 PM
i don't mean to insult you, but that's one of the dumbest things i've ever seen written here. your argument is that your assertion is true, even though there is no proof whatsoever, simply because you can't comprehend it not being true. if you believe life to be a random process, then please combine carbon and oxygen and water and whatever else you want in a petry dish and bring it to life and prove it scientifically. but, if you can't explain a random process that results in life, then you cannot use the assumption that such a process exists to prove using statistics and probabilities that such a process is likely to have occurred elsewhere and brought forth extraterrestrial life. you just cannot do it. it fails the smell test. you can BELIEVE that life exists elsewhere and that's fine with me. but it's quite reasonable for me to disagree with that belief.

I think you totally missed the posters point. So, I'll tell you what his point is: if you crunch the numbers, mathmatically, the PROBABILITY of life on other planets is overwhelmning.

Go ahead. Do the math.

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 03:02 PM
i don't mean to insult you, but that's one of the dumbest things i've ever seen written here. your argument is that your assertion is true, even though there is no proof whatsoever, simply because you can't comprehend it not being true. if you believe life to be a random process, then please combine carbon and oxygen and water and whatever else you want in a petry dish and bring it to life and prove it scientifically. but, if you can't explain a random process that results in life, then you cannot use the assumption that such a process exists to prove using statistics and probabilities that such a process is likely to have occurred elsewhere and brought forth extraterrestrial life. you just cannot do it. it fails the smell test. you can BELIEVE that life exists elsewhere and that's fine with me. but it's quite reasonable for me to disagree with that belief.

Haven't we found comets with fossilized bacteria in them?

Doesn't that make this entire post moot?

Gort
03-09-2009, 03:08 PM
Haven't we found comets with fossilized bacteria in them?

Doesn't that make this entire post moot?

no. no such thing has ever been found. a few years ago, some NASA scientists looking to maintain their funding made some overblown claims about finding crystal structures in meteorites that looked to them to be similar to certain building block protein structures (or something to that effect). the media, which is ignorant of science, ran with the story, much like they did with cold fusion a decade earlier. for the non-scientist who saw such reports and never saw a retraction in the media, it's easy to understand why they might be confused.

there is no evidence whatsoever of life off of our planet. none.

Gort
03-09-2009, 03:13 PM
I think you totally missed the posters point. So, I'll tell you what his point is: if you crunch the numbers, mathmatically, the PROBABILITY of life on other planets is overwhelmning.

Go ahead. Do the math.

go back to school. probability is only valid for predicting RANDOM events.

each morning i go to work. there is a 0% chance of me arriving each morning at work in California. there is a 100% chance of me arriving each morning at work in Colorado. where i go each morning is not a random event. i work in Colorado.

however, if i flip a coin each morning, with heads telling me to drive to California and tails telling me to drive to Colorado, then there is a 50% chance of me arriving at either place each day. that is an outcome based on a random event.

life to spring from non-living materials is not proven to be a random event. put the necessary components together in a petry dish and try every possible means to stimulate the "non living" components to combine and result in a living organism. until you find that mechanism (whatever it is?), life is not shown to be random.

Tombstone RJ
03-09-2009, 03:36 PM
go back to school. probability is only valid for predicting RANDOM events.

each morning i go to work. there is a 0% chance of me arriving each morning at work in California. there is a 100% chance of me arriving each morning at work in Colorado. where i go each morning is not a random event. i work in Colorado.

however, if i flip a coin each morning, with heads telling me to drive to California and tails telling me to drive to Colorado, then there is a 50% chance of me arriving at each place each day. that is a random outcome.

life to spring from non-living materials is not proven to be a random event. put the necessary components together in a petry dish and try every possible means to stimulate the "non living" components to combine and result in a living organism. until you find that mechanism (whatever it is?), life is not shown to be random.

Have you ever taken an accounting class? If so, you'd understand true randomality when it comes to numbers.

That being said, the universe in general, and astronomy in particular is all about numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,... up to a bazillion. It's easy to look at the universe based on what we know (the elements that make up the universe and how those elements refract light waves) and get solid numbers as to the ligitimate probability of life existing on other planets. In fact, it is a no-brainer.

You keep harping on randomality. I think what your implying is Intelligent Design which I agree with.

I agree with you that human beings are not here by some random combinations of events that all brought us to this particular post, in this particular thread on this particular board on this particular server on this particular planet in this particular solar system in this particular galaxy in this particular quadrant of the universe in this particular universe.

watermock
03-09-2009, 04:10 PM
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TheReverend
03-09-2009, 04:17 PM
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Haha... sweet star wars ship someone put in there

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 04:25 PM
go back to school. probability is only valid for predicting RANDOM events.

each morning i go to work. there is a 0% chance of me arriving each morning at work in California. there is a 100% chance of me arriving each morning at work in Colorado. where i go each morning is not a random event. i work in Colorado.

however, if i flip a coin each morning, with heads telling me to drive to California and tails telling me to drive to Colorado, then there is a 50% chance of me arriving at either place each day. that is an outcome based on a random event.

life to spring from non-living materials is not proven to be a random event. put the necessary components together in a petry dish and try every possible means to stimulate the "non living" components to combine and result in a living organism. until you find that mechanism (whatever it is?), life is not shown to be random.

You may want to read up on the Miller/Urey experiment.

Gort
03-09-2009, 04:32 PM
Have you ever taken an accounting class? If so, you'd understand true randomality when it comes to numbers.

That being said, the universe in general, and astronomy in particular is all about numbers: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,... up to a bazillion. It's easy to look at the universe based on what we know (the elements that make up the universe and how those elements refract light waves) and get solid numbers as to the ligitimate probability of life existing on other planets. In fact, it is a no-brainer.

You keep harping on randomality. I think what your implying is Intelligent Design which I agree with.

I agree with you that human beings are not here by some random combinations of events that all brought us to this particular post, in this particular thread on this particular board on this particular server on this particular planet in this particular solar system in this particular galaxy in this particular quadrant of the universe in this particular universe.

i am well acquainted with engineering statistics and probability. and causality. i'm not arguing religion at all. i'm simply saying that the notion that there must be life because with so many billions of potential planets it seems implausible that there wouldn't be extraterrestial life is only conjecture. there is no probability analysis that anyone can perform to determine the chance of life randomly appearing on any planet that meets all of the necessary requirements for life during any fixed timeframe. hence, there is no way to infer that the appearance of life elsewhere in the universe based on the age of the universe and the number of suitable planets on which it may appear.

Gort
03-09-2009, 04:43 PM
You may want to read up on the Miller/Urey experiment.

but we're talking about actual living organisms, not precursor organic molecules. nobody has created life in a beaker, petry dish, or flask from scratch. until they do, we don't know the process(es) involved. maybe life can start in such a way. i don't know. it hasn't yet been demonstrated.

BTW, my side in this argument is only that of being rigidly skeptical. somebody says there is life elsewhere and i say prove it. that's all.

is it possible that there is life all throughout the universe. sure, it's possible. but again, i'd say prove it. show me some evidence. real evidence. using a probability argument doesn't cut it.

watermock
03-09-2009, 05:05 PM
Haha... sweet star wars ship someone put in there

The police tape was a nice touch.

gyldenlove
03-09-2009, 05:08 PM
but we're talking about actual living organisms, not precursor organic molecules. nobody has created life in a beaker, petry dish, or flask from scratch. until they do, we don't know the process(es) involved. maybe life can start in such a way. i don't know. it hasn't yet been demonstrated.

BTW, my side in this argument is only that of being rigidly skeptical. somebody says there is life elsewhere and i say prove it. that's all.

is it possible that there is life all throughout the universe. sure, it's possible. but again, i'd say prove it. show me some evidence. real evidence. using a probability argument doesn't cut it.

Give me 500 million years, I will create life from base chemicals. No matter how unlikely something is, if you give it enough attempts it will happen.

Sodak
03-09-2009, 05:23 PM
I saw some crazy lights one night in Fort Collins, driving home from work about 1 am. I had never seen anything move in the sky like that before, and never since. And, I never really talked about it.

There's definitely something very strange going on.

watermock
03-09-2009, 05:31 PM
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broncolife
03-09-2009, 07:39 PM
IF Aliens exist and have come here, you can bet that they are thousands, not hundreds, but thousands of years more advanced than us and those seeking to grab their shotguns may as well grab a straw and paper and hurl spitballs at them.



We could alway hope they focused all thier research on space Travel and had no concept of war. Shotgun sure worked for Piper:)

OrangeRising
03-09-2009, 08:26 PM
Never have seen anything in the way of a UFO, but I did study math, physics, astronomy & astrophysic sciences and among many things that became very obvious is that the probability of intelligent life, speculating purely from axiomatic model, given the sheer numbers of stars, galaxies, and space in general, is likely to a near certainty. Whether or not any of these little guys visited here is made more likely by the mere fact that they don't want to know us and they didn't stay long.

baja
03-09-2009, 08:37 PM
I don't see how that is evidence of anything but the value of art classes. There are no space ships or aliens in those pictures.

Well it was a quick google as I was planning on leaving shortly thereafter.

You do have a point about the vagueness but the part I find interesting is these drawing are exaggerated in almost global similar ways. What would be the most logical common denominator at play here. It would be the subject. Alien craft explains the given travel challenges that would be the best argument against the possibility.

Jesterhole
03-09-2009, 09:59 PM
Okay, so being a skeptic by nature, I find even just the concept of alien life visiting this planet nearly impossible just by the sheer distance involved alone.

If you consider the age of the universe and the timeline involved, it is easy to think that another civilization could be anywhere from hundreds to billions of years ahead of us. I mean, we're still burning crap to make things go...we've barely gotten past fire!!

So it would be wrong to assume our own level of technology when considering how far something would have to travel.

TheReverend
03-09-2009, 10:01 PM
If you consider the age of the universe and the timeline involved, it is easy to think that another civilization could be anywhere from hundreds to billions of years ahead of us. I mean, we're still burning crap to make things go...we've barely gotten past fire!!

So it would be wrong to assume our own level of technology when considering how far something would have to travel.

I say the same thing a few posts down......

UberBroncoMan
03-09-2009, 10:09 PM
I completely believe alien life DOES EXIST.

Now on the notion if I believe that there are space ships, light speed travel, worm hold travel, etc... I'm not sure about that.

Remember we're just in one itty bitty part of this galaxy and there are an untold number of other galaxies out there... each with star systems, many with planets.

I'd go so far as to guarantee that there is another intelligent species out there.

Now on the notion that we've had visitors???

I'd put that as astronomically low for the same reason I said there is intelligent life out there.

We are but one spec in the universe... you couldn't even blink fast enough to equate the existence of the human species thus far on a universal level.

The odds of two specs meetings outside of life evolving on two worlds within a solar system or between two very close solar systems is too low to fathom.

alkemical
03-10-2009, 05:19 AM
Also:

Maybe there are light beings on a gas type planet, etc. There's not a definition of "life" that i'm really...strict upon. It doesn't have to be a bipedal organism for me. Even virii & bacteria count for me (on some measure).

barryr
03-10-2009, 11:01 AM
My opinion on this has gone back and forth over the years. The bottom line is if we are the only life in the universe, how big a miracle that is.

Whether you believe God is the creator or we developed from some fish or whatever, think just how it happened here but nowhere else and why that would be the case.

I believe many sightings are our military testing new aircraft of some sort, but there are signtings and things that happen that just don't have a good, rational explanation for them.

alkemical
03-10-2009, 11:07 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=57588

Taco John
03-10-2009, 11:19 AM
To pour a cup of gasoline on this thread, here is a video from CNN that was shot during the Barack Obama inauguration. Keep in mind that the airspace above was absolutely closed:

<object width="480" height="295"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/a6jTAd-TVFM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/a6jTAd-TVFM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>

Los Broncos
03-10-2009, 11:21 AM
Hey that's a flying carpet.

alkemical
03-10-2009, 11:37 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=57588

http://www.crystalinks.com/drone607.jpg

http://www.crystalinks.com/drones607a.jpg

http://www.earthfiles333.com/earthfiles/EpisodeImages/episode17/DroneAlabama2006.jpg

alkemical
03-10-2009, 11:39 AM
http://secretsun.blogspot.com/2009/01/obama-inaugural-ufo.html

Thursday, January 22, 2009
Obama Inaugural UFO? (UPDATED 1/23)