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Rohirrim
02-25-2009, 08:37 AM
We are not alone. The thought of this being true gives me a weird paradigm shift, probabaly similar to what people felt when Galileo told them the Earth was not the center of the solar system. It seems to me one of our cultural pinnacles in Judeo-Christian thought that there is one God and one people. Now it appears there may be one God, but many people, or whatnot. ;D

Researchers at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland constructed a computer model to create a synthetic galaxy with billions of stars and planets. They then studied how life evolved under various conditions in this virtual world, using a supercomputer to crunch the results.

In a paper published recently in the International Journal of Astrobiology, the researchers concluded that based on what they saw, at least 361 intelligent civilizations have emerged in the Milky Way since its creation, and as many as 38,000 may have formed.

Duncan Forgan, a doctoral candidate at the university who led the study, said he was surprised by the hardiness of life on these other worlds.

"The computer model takes into account what we refer to as resetting or extinction events. The classic example is the asteroid impact that may have wiped out the dinosaurs," Forgan said.

"I half-expected these events to disallow the rise of intelligence, and yet civilizations seemed to flourish."
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/02/25/galaxy.planets.kepler/index.html

socalorado
02-25-2009, 08:43 AM
Hey, you gonna make your pick in the mock draft, or what?!?!
Your not alone, and everyone and their brother is waitin on you, numbnuts!

MagicHef
02-25-2009, 08:44 AM
I think they just played Spore for a while.

DomCasual
02-25-2009, 08:53 AM
I don't see how there wouldn't be other worlds, to be honest.

Kaylore
02-25-2009, 08:59 AM
I think they just played Spore for a while.

:~ohyah!: Yeah they probably were playing Civ IV online with each other and had to present something to show they were "working" during that period.

bowtown
02-25-2009, 09:09 AM
:~ohyah!: Yeah they probably were playing Civ IV online with each other and had to present something to show they were "working" during that period.

Duncan Foragn won with a space race victory.

Rohirrim
02-25-2009, 09:16 AM
Hey, you gonna make your pick in the mock draft, or what?!?!
Your not alone, and everyone and their brother is waitin on you, numbnuts!

The Monroe pick by the Lions threw me off. ;D

Dagmar
02-25-2009, 09:18 AM
Trust those handsome Scottish bastards.

socalorado
02-25-2009, 09:21 AM
The Monroe pick by the Lions threw me off. ;D

HA! I was just givin you a hard time! ;D

alkemical
02-25-2009, 09:26 AM
http://startswithabang.com/?p=952

OBF1
02-25-2009, 10:09 AM
I knew it was going to only a matter of time until our resident alien chimed in.

WELCOME TO EARTH CLAVI :)

FISH
02-25-2009, 10:10 AM
I say bring one of them aliens in....they would break 3k in our "solar" system

Rohirrim
02-25-2009, 01:20 PM
I say bring one of them aliens in....they would break 3k in our "solar" system

I wonder what football looks like on other planets.

TheReverend
02-25-2009, 02:50 PM
Duncan Foragn won with a space race victory.

Space Race is such a cheese dick victory.

Domination or nothing.

sisterhellfyre
02-25-2009, 02:58 PM
I wonder what football looks like on other planets.

The ball is round, mostly white with black spots, and they play the game with their feet only.

Regards,
m.

gyldenlove
02-25-2009, 03:06 PM
Modelling things like that is beyond pointless, if your uncertainty is between 0 and 38.000, how you have the gaul to state that 361 should have formed is beyond me.

Kid A
02-25-2009, 03:22 PM
Modelling things like that is beyond pointless, if your uncertainty is between 0 and 38.000, how you have the gaul to state that 361 should have formed is beyond me.

I thought, given the short explanation, a solid arguement was made for the idea that there very well may be other civilizations in our own galaxy. If there are a 100 billion planets that could potentially host life, odds are we aren't the only one to do so.

That said, none of this seems particularly exact, but I think it's a worthwhile exercise nonetheless. The idea of other intelligent lifeforms evolving on other planets would make sense based on our knowledge of our own planet, it's just a bit of a mind**** to consider a civilization (with its own wars, and governments, and religions, and art) might be happening in this same galaxy as we speak. Or even that it might have already happened a billion years ago, before destroying itself. Someone need to invent hyperspeed quick, so we can start looking into this stuff.

broncosteven
02-25-2009, 03:28 PM
:~ohyah!: Yeah they probably were playing Civ IV online with each other and had to present something to show they were "working" during that period.

I just hope they remembered to make these calculations with the fact that Ceti Alpha 4 was destroyed.

Hate to see anyone land on Ceti-alpha 5 again.

gyldenlove
02-25-2009, 03:36 PM
I thought, given the short explanation, a solid arguement was made for the idea that there very well may be other civilizations in our own galaxy. If there are a 100 billion planets that could potentially host life, odds are we aren't the only one to do so.

That said, none of this seems particularly exact, but I think it's a worthwhile exercise nonetheless. The idea of other intelligent lifeforms evolving on other planets would make sense based on our knowledge of our own planet, it's just a bit of a mind**** to consider a civilization (with its own wars, and governments, and religions, and art) might be happening in this same galaxy as we speak. Or even that it might have already happened a billion years ago, before destroying itself. Someone need to invent hyperspeed quick, so we can start looking into this stuff.

The argument for other intelligent or just multicelled life in our galaxy is the number of stars. The problem with a model like this is, what is the probability that life forms and that intelligent life evolves? We have no idea, because we have only 1 sample, so no matter what you do the main premise of such a model (which is the probability) is a blind guess.

Essentially this is like predicting the lottery, there is a certain chance that a number between 1 and 20 will be drawn on any given night. Beyond that you really can't say much no matter how many models you do.

Other studies have tried to model if there is another intelligent life form in the galaxy, what is the probability that they would have contacted us by now? answers range from in-****ing-probable to if they were here we would definitely know by now. The main difference in those studies is probability. Your assumption essentially defines the answer and that is the problem, the model will never say anything meaningful because the answer is so strongly dependent on a guess.

All you had to do was say, there are 10 to the 8-9th power stars in the galaxy, at least half are of a size and temperature that makes suitable for a biosphere not unlike ours, then you guess at the probability of having a rock-like planet in a temperature belt with the right mass to maintain an atmosphere and then you say given that number, life should have formed multiple places and if life forms we have to assume that at least some of the planets would have evolved multicelled lifeforms.

broncosteven
02-25-2009, 03:45 PM
The argument for other intelligent or just multicelled life in our galaxy is the number of stars. The problem with a model like this is, what is the probability that life forms and that intelligent life evolves? We have no idea, because we have only 1 sample, so no matter what you do the main premise of such a model (which is the probability) is a blind guess.

Essentially this is like predicting the lottery, there is a certain chance that a number between 1 and 20 will be drawn on any given night. Beyond that you really can't say much no matter how many models you do.

Other studies have tried to model if there is another intelligent life form in the galaxy, what is the probability that they would have contacted us by now? answers range from in-****ing-probable to if they were here we would definitely know by now. The main difference in those studies is probability. Your assumption essentially defines the answer and that is the problem, the model will never say anything meaningful because the answer is so strongly dependent on a guess.

All you had to do was say, there are 10 to the 8-9th power stars in the galaxy, at least half are of a size and temperature that makes suitable for a biosphere not unlike ours, then you guess at the probability of having a rock-like planet in a temperature belt with the right mass to maintain an atmosphere and then you say given that number, life should have formed multiple places and if life forms we have to assume that at least some of the planets would have evolved multicelled lifeforms.


When you factor in that Mars does have water ice and Europa is likely teeming with some sort of life under the seas I think the chances are good that there is intelligent life outside our solar system.


BTW other than the radio and TV transmissions we have been broadcasting only for the last 80-90 years we are not actively sending out a WE ARE HERE message that I know of. I know we are listening.

If we go HDTV and Digital/Satelite radio, if another life form picks up our TV/radio they are going to think we killed ourselves off because there will be no more analog transmissions.

100 years of broadcasts will not be enough to contact any other star system with life.

I know life is out there I think there is too much distance between us.

I have a harder time with alternate universes.

Archer81
02-25-2009, 03:48 PM
When you factor in that Mars does have water ice and Europa is likely teeming with some sort of life under the seas I think the chances are good that there is intelligent life outside our solar system.


BTW other than the radio and TV transmissions we have been broadcasting only for the last 80-90 years we are not actively sending out a WE ARE HERE message that I know of. I know we are listening.

If we go HDTV and Digital/Satelite radio, if another life form picks up our TV/radio they are going to think we killed ourselves off because there will be no more analog transmissions.

100 years of broadcasts will not be enough to contact any other star system with life.

I know life is out there I think there is too much distance between us.

I have a harder time with alternate universes.


We need to be more careful with what we send out into space. Not every life form is going to be ET.

:Broncos:

broncosteven
02-25-2009, 03:53 PM
We need to be more careful with what we send out into space. Not every life form is going to be ET.

:Broncos:

I agree. As a casual sci-fi fan I agree. I just don't see anything being able to travel the distances in the galaxy let alone the universe.

I read Cormac McCarthy's The Road last year and that senario scares me more than aliens. Feeding and protecting ones family after a holocaust or society meltdown is more probable.

bowtown
02-25-2009, 03:56 PM
We need to be more careful with what we send out into space. Not every life form is going to be ET.

:Broncos:

Also, people should really make sure to check their closets more thoroughly for the Boogie Man before going to bed, and keep their chimneys clean for Santa Clause.

Archer81
02-25-2009, 04:00 PM
Also, people should really make sure to check their closets more thoroughly for the Boogie Man before going to bed, and keep their chimneys clean for Santa Clause.


Clearly you are not aware of the under the bed boogie man.


:Broncos:

Rock Chalk
02-25-2009, 04:04 PM
The only way I think its possible that intelligent life exists in our galaxy is if there is no scientific way possible to travel faster than or skirt around the light speed barrier. In which case, humanity is doomed, there is no escape. There will come a time when our planet does not exist and without a method of travelling through the galaxy at extra-luminous means, we will die along with it.

If it IS possible, we would have most certainly encountered some sign of of their existence since it would not take long for a species to populate the whole of the galaxy if that technology were available to them, including our own planet.

Consider if you gave a species 10 years to colonize each world, and say 1 in 1000 stars had a habitable planet (which seems rather high to me), it would only take 100 million years or so for the entire galaxy to be colonized. Given that our own galaxy was formed when the first galaxies formed (or near to it), say 12 billion years ago, thats a mear 1/120th of the time the galaxy has existed. You can take extinction out of the equation since that species populations litterally hundreds of thousands of worlds.

So, either its not possible for any civilization to warp space or travel faster than light, or we are alone...at least in this galaxy. JMO.

eddie mac
02-25-2009, 04:05 PM
The ball is round, mostly white with black spots, and they play the game with their feet only.

Regards,
m.

Guess who's been watching 101 Dalmations too much.:D

broncosteven
02-25-2009, 04:07 PM
The only way I think its possible that intelligent life exists in our galaxy is if there is no scientific way possible to travel faster than or skirt around the light speed barrier. In which case, humanity is doomed, there is no escape. There will come a time when our planet does not exist and without a method of travelling through the galaxy at extra-luminous means, we will die along with it.

If it IS possible, we would have most certainly encountered some sign of of their existence since it would not take long for a species to populate the whole of the galaxy if that technology were available to them, including our own planet.

Consider if you gave a species 10 years to colonize each world, and say 1 in 1000 stars had a habitable planet (which seems rather high to me), it would only take 100 million years or so for the entire galaxy to be colonized. Given that our own galaxy was formed when the first galaxies formed (or near to it), say 12 billion years ago, thats a mear 1/120th of the time the galaxy has existed. You can take extinction out of the equation since that species populations litterally hundreds of thousands of worlds.

So, either its not possible for any civilization to warp space or travel faster than light, or we are alone...at least in this galaxy. JMO.

I thought you were from another planet, some place where they think Kansas basket ball is cool.

Archer81
02-25-2009, 04:07 PM
The only way I think its possible that intelligent life exists in our galaxy is if there is no scientific way possible to travel faster than or skirt around the light speed barrier. In which case, humanity is doomed, there is no escape. There will come a time when our planet does not exist and without a method of travelling through the galaxy at extra-luminous means, we will die along with it.

If it IS possible, we would have most certainly encountered some sign of of their existence since it would not take long for a species to populate the whole of the galaxy if that technology were available to them, including our own planet.

Consider if you gave a species 10 years to colonize each world, and say 1 in 1000 stars had a habitable planet (which seems rather high to me), it would only take 100 million years or so for the entire galaxy to be colonized. Given that our own galaxy was formed when the first galaxies formed (or near to it), say 12 billion years ago, thats a mear 1/120th of the time the galaxy has existed. You can take extinction out of the equation since that species populations litterally hundreds of thousands of worlds.

So, either its not possible for any civilization to warp space or travel faster than light, or we are alone...at least in this galaxy. JMO.



LIke anything else, we will discover how to travel through space without it taking 100's of years. Just takes time. That being said, lets say there are only 361 existing civilizations in the Universe, the sheer size of the universe and the galaxies in it could mean that we simply have not been found yet because possibly we are in a universal backwater...OR...they are ignoring us because we are too young to deal with at this exact moment in time...


:Broncos:

Taco John
02-25-2009, 04:12 PM
Space Race is such a cheese dick victory.

Domination or nothing.



I always turn space race off and maximize the civilization count. It's so tough to get a world wonder when you are competing against 18 other civilizations for it. I love it...

Archer81
02-25-2009, 04:14 PM
I always turn space race off and maximize the civilization count. It's so tough to get a world wonder when you are competing against 18 other civilizations for it. I love it...


Thats how I play. It never fails though, I always get stuck on a continent with the Aztec, and within 5 turns of meeting them, we are at war.


:Broncos:

bowtown
02-25-2009, 04:14 PM
LIke anything else, we will discover how to travel through space without it taking 100's of years. Just takes time. That being said, lets say there are only 361 existing civilizations in the Universe, the sheer size of the universe and the galaxies in it could mean that we simply have not been found yet because possibly we are in a universal backwater...OR...they are ignoring us because we are too young to deal with at this exact moment in time...


:Broncos:

Well the probelm with that is that according to Einstein, it is not possible to travel through space faster than the speed of light. And unfortunately, there is a good chance that space is growing at a rate faster than the speed of light. So, like Alec mentioned above, you would really need to figure out a way to bend space or warp in order to even get anywhere outside our own galaxy.

If indeed the Universe is infinite, then it is very probable that there is other life in it somewhere, in fact it's certain. If it is indeed infinite then there is every other thing that could ever exist ever out there, including exact mirrors of this planet. But, again to get to any of them would esentially mean totally ignoring the rules of physics as we know them.

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2009, 04:37 PM
I dont see how this is anything new

I thought it has been understood that life most certainly exists elsewhere in the universe and that the universe has seen many many life forms come about and go the was of extinction

The Milky Way is a big place, odds are we are not the ones to have existed in it

broncosteven
02-25-2009, 04:38 PM
You guys need to watch this. It is one of the best Nova episodes I have ever seen.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/manyworlds/

The guy is a front man for a band called The EELs. His father came up with this theory about parallel worlds/universes to expain how atoms can be in 2 places at once. His dad presented it to his hero who shot it down. He left theoritical work and didn't discuss with his son.

It caught back on in the late 60's and into the 70's before he died.

Very interesting stuff, his kid is kinda a wack job but it was entertaining

Stick your finger in your ear... Did you do it? If the so-called Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct, there's at least one universe in which you did, one in which you didn't, and universes for everything in between. Physicist Hugh Everett III was just 27 years old when he introduced this interpretation—also known as the theory of parallel worlds—in the published version of his 1957 doctoral thesis. According to Everett's theory, every event that could occur in a number of ways, even something as simple as how you decided to respond to the above request, triggers a split that generates multiple universes, which collectively contain every possible outcome. While new to science, the notion of parallel worlds was hardly new to science fiction. In this time line, track some of the scientific milestones (blue) that led up to Everett's theory and see how the idea of parallel worlds showed up in science fiction (red) all along the way.—Rachel VanCott

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2009, 04:50 PM
The only way I think its possible that intelligent life exists in our galaxy is if there is no scientific way possible to travel faster than or skirt around the light speed barrier. In which case, humanity is doomed, there is no escape. There will come a time when our planet does not exist and without a method of travelling through the galaxy at extra-luminous means, we will die along with it.

If it IS possible, we would have most certainly encountered some sign of of their existence since it would not take long for a species to populate the whole of the galaxy if that technology were available to them, including our own planet.

Consider if you gave a species 10 years to colonize each world, and say 1 in 1000 stars had a habitable planet (which seems rather high to me), it would only take 100 million years or so for the entire galaxy to be colonized. Given that our own galaxy was formed when the first galaxies formed (or near to it), say 12 billion years ago, thats a mear 1/120th of the time the galaxy has existed. You can take extinction out of the equation since that species populations litterally hundreds of thousands of worlds.

So, either its not possible for any civilization to warp space or travel faster than light, or we are alone...at least in this galaxy. JMO.

I dont know where you get your ideas from, I recall you in one thread suggesting the universe came from "nothingness"

But if we were to receive some sort of sign from intelligent life, by the time we receive it most likely it would already be extinct.

Life can arise in this galaxy, we are an example of this.
It isnt that hard to understand how life can come about in a similar way on a similar planet.
Just because we havent been contacted by anyone doesnt mean no one is there.

If you placed a quarter on the ground to represent our solar system, it would take the entire United States to represent the size of our galaxy

The Milky Way is a big place, humans will all be extinct before we are able to figure out how to send messages faster than the speed of light

mhgaffney
02-25-2009, 05:13 PM
The big bang model does not allow enough time to generate intelligent life. You can't do it in a mere 15 billion years.

The astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle crunched the numbers on this years ago -- and they do not lie.

You need lots more time -- hundreds of billions of years at least.

My own persinal view is that the big bang is a crock of **** -- is laughable. The universe probably had no beginning. (This is the Hindu view.) It's been around forever. So, given unlimited time sure anything can happen.

MHG

TheReverend
02-25-2009, 05:21 PM
Thats how I play. It never fails though, I always get stuck on a continent with the Aztec, and within 5 turns of meeting them, we are at war.


:Broncos:

Haha, I HATE those douche bags. The Mongols are no better, though they're retarded.

TheReverend
02-25-2009, 05:23 PM
I always turn space race off and maximize the civilization count. It's so tough to get a world wonder when you are competing against 18 other civilizations for it. I love it...

I play Earth as the Germans on Emperor.

It's pretty much cheating, though. Nail alphabet with the oracle, and you already won, especially when you colonize the Americas.

orinjkrush
02-25-2009, 05:25 PM
humans have no clue on how/why the universe started. hubris to think otherwise.

but this 12 dimensional string theory of everything sure is kewl to speculate on. stick your right finger in your ear...no, wait, your left, finger no ear, no right. did you do it? who did it? ommmmmmmmm

slyinky
02-25-2009, 05:35 PM
You guys need to watch this. It is one of the best Nova episodes I have ever seen.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/manyworlds/

The guy is a front man for a band called The EELs. His father came up with this theory about parallel worlds/universes to expain how atoms can be in 2 places at once. His dad presented it to his hero who shot it down. He left theoritical work and didn't discuss with his son.

It caught back on in the late 60's and into the 70's before he died.

Very interesting stuff, his kid is kinda a wack job but it was entertaining

Stick your finger in your ear... Did you do it? If the so-called Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum mechanics is correct, there's at least one universe in which you did, one in which you didn't, and universes for everything in between. Physicist Hugh Everett III was just 27 years old when he introduced this interpretation—also known as the theory of parallel worlds—in the published version of his 1957 doctoral thesis. According to Everett's theory, every event that could occur in a number of ways, even something as simple as how you decided to respond to the above request, triggers a split that generates multiple universes, which collectively contain every possible outcome. While new to science, the notion of parallel worlds was hardly new to science fiction. In this time line, track some of the scientific milestones (blue) that led up to Everett's theory and see how the idea of parallel worlds showed up in science fiction (red) all along the way.—Rachel VanCott

The theory of parallel universes solves the paradoxes created within the notion of time travel.

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Archer81
02-25-2009, 05:46 PM
Haha, I HATE those douche bags. The Mongols are no better, though they're retarded.



Dude I hate the Mongols. One game I literally spent half my time fighting the Mongols and Aztecs, almost lost, too.


:Broncos:

slyinky
02-25-2009, 06:06 PM
The Kepler Mission launches March 6th.

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Malcontent
02-25-2009, 06:33 PM
The only way I think its possible that intelligent life exists in our galaxy is if there is no scientific way possible to travel faster than or skirt around the light speed barrier. In which case, humanity is doomed, there is no escape. There will come a time when our planet does not exist and without a method of travelling through the galaxy at extra-luminous means, we will die along with it.

If it IS possible, we would have most certainly encountered some sign of of their existence since it would not take long for a species to populate the whole of the galaxy if that technology were available to them, including our own planet.

Consider if you gave a species 10 years to colonize each world, and say 1 in 1000 stars had a habitable planet (which seems rather high to me), it would only take 100 million years or so for the entire galaxy to be colonized. Given that our own galaxy was formed when the first galaxies formed (or near to it), say 12 billion years ago, thats a mear 1/120th of the time the galaxy has existed. You can take extinction out of the equation since that species populations litterally hundreds of thousands of worlds.

So, either its not possible for any civilization to warp space or travel faster than light, or we are alone...at least in this galaxy. JMO.

Al..what about worm holes and the like....Einstein was working on parallel Unis and the like 60 yrs ago...maybe a huge breakthrough is due.

Rohirrim
02-25-2009, 06:44 PM
Thats how I play. It never fails though, I always get stuck on a continent with the Aztec, and within 5 turns of meeting them, we are at war.


:Broncos:

That's why I never put the Celts in my game. They declare war and then never stop coming. It gets annoying. I also only go for domination victories.

gyldenlove
02-25-2009, 07:10 PM
The big bang model does not allow enough time to generate intelligent life. You can't do it in a mere 15 billion years.

The astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle crunched the numbers on this years ago -- and they do not lie.

You need lots more time -- hundreds of billions of years at least.

My own persinal view is that the big bang is a crock of **** -- is laughable. The universe probably had no beginning. (This is the Hindu view.) It's been around forever. So, given unlimited time sure anything can happen.

MHG

If the universe has been around for ever, how come Humanity has only existed in any form for less than 200 million years? If we had forever it doesn't make sense that the last 200 million years have been so important.

Hoyle of course made multiple mistakes, his whole idea is based on the notion that life as we know it today started in one reaction. That is of course absurd, as it has been shown in experiments that you can form basic organic molecules with nothing but water, oxygen, carbon dioxide and lightning, from that, reactions to create ever more complex molecules happen easily.

There are good reasons why Hoyle never published his work in a scientific journal, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Anyone can write a book full of unsubstantiated claims.

Rohirrim
02-25-2009, 07:36 PM
I think the universe is breathing. It expands to its limit and then contracts to an unimaginable density and then bang, it begins to expand again. If the Big Bang is true, then wouldn't the most advanced civilizations be be out on the edge of the universe, among the quasars, while the most rudimentary life is closer to the original center?

Archer81
02-25-2009, 07:45 PM
That's why I never put the Celts in my game. They declare war and then never stop coming. It gets annoying. I also only go for domination victories.


I used a game version of the real earth map, and was the Americans. It stuck me on the Indian subcontinent between the Japanese, Mongols and Russians in Asia with me, The Zulu and Carthaginians in Africa, British, French and Romans in Europe, Aztecs and Iraqois in North America, Maya and Celts in South America. That was interesting, because I had a very finite source of iron, and had to go to war with the Japanese for resources or lose the game, and it ended up being a series of 4 wars to completely conquer the Japanese. I conquered the entire Globe. Was sweet.

:Broncos:

broncosteven
02-25-2009, 07:52 PM
I think the universe is breathing. It expands to its limit and then contracts to an unimaginable density and then bang, it begins to expand again. If the Big Bang is true, then wouldn't the most advanced civilizations be be out on the edge of the universe, among the quasars, while the most rudimentary life is closer to the original center?


Think of ripples in a pond, the 1st ripple is still there even as more ripples continue to grow. The 1st ripple does not expand out to the edge or there would only be 1 ripple.

Archer81
02-25-2009, 07:54 PM
Think of ripples in a pond, the 1st ripple is still there even as more ripples continue to grow. The 1st ripple does not expand out to the edge or there would only be 1 ripple.


Now...as the stone sinks through the water, displacing it, it would also cause ripple effects underneath the surface, possibly altering other realities...


:Broncos:

broncosteven
02-25-2009, 07:56 PM
Now...as the stone sinks through the water, displacing it, it would also cause ripple effects underneath the surface, possibly altering other realities...


:Broncos:

Then I decide to be a god and jump into the pool ****ing up all the ripples. Bow to me you sin laden ripples!

Archer81
02-25-2009, 07:58 PM
Then I decide to be a god and jump into the pool ****ing up all the ripples. Bow to me you sin laden ripples!


How do you go to bed and wake up dead? You go to bed alive but wake up dead, because you were alive when you went to the bed...DAMN...THATS SOME 4TH DIMENSIONAL ****...


:Broncos:

Bronx33
02-25-2009, 07:59 PM
Unfortunately oakland was formed in our solar system.

Archer81
02-25-2009, 08:01 PM
Unfortunately oakland was formed in our solar system.


You know there is a reality where Oakland is Denver and Denver is Oakland...with an orange and blue skeletor at Castle Greyskull...




:Broncos:

Bronx33
02-25-2009, 08:03 PM
You know there is a reality where Oakland is Denver and Denver is Oakland...with an orange and blue skeletor at Castle Greyskull...




:Broncos:

poppycock!

Archer81
02-25-2009, 08:07 PM
poppycock!


I know. Alternate universes would suck.


:Broncos:

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2009, 08:19 PM
I know. Alternate universes would suck.


:Broncos:

I bet in the other universe the other you is thinking "I wonder what I would be like if I was gay?"

Archer81
02-25-2009, 08:22 PM
I bet in the other universe the other you is thinking "I wonder what I would be like if I was gay?"




I know...simple bastard. He should get smacked in the head, hard.


:Broncos:

gyldenlove
02-25-2009, 08:22 PM
There is no universe where Bobo isn't a tubby douche.

Br0nc0Buster
02-25-2009, 08:36 PM
There is no universe where Bobo isn't a tubby douche.

He simply chooses twinkies instead of cupcakes.

Oh and he lives in his dad's basement in that universe as well(I have heard people mention that he lives in his moms basement, so that is my source here)

OrangeRising
02-26-2009, 12:10 AM
How anyone can say we can't extrapolate anything with only one example obviously has forgotten their basic algebra. Solving for two and three unknowns is a simple mathematical formula. When given a single known example, probabilities are endless. The idea we're alone in this vast expanse is just silly or closed minded for a reason.

alkemical
02-26-2009, 06:31 AM
The only way I think its possible that intelligent life exists in our galaxy is if there is no scientific way possible to travel faster than or skirt around the light speed barrier. In which case, humanity is doomed, there is no escape. There will come a time when our planet does not exist and without a method of travelling through the galaxy at extra-luminous means, we will die along with it.

If it IS possible, we would have most certainly encountered some sign of of their existence since it would not take long for a species to populate the whole of the galaxy if that technology were available to them, including our own planet.

Consider if you gave a species 10 years to colonize each world, and say 1 in 1000 stars had a habitable planet (which seems rather high to me), it would only take 100 million years or so for the entire galaxy to be colonized. Given that our own galaxy was formed when the first galaxies formed (or near to it), say 12 billion years ago, thats a mear 1/120th of the time the galaxy has existed. You can take extinction out of the equation since that species populations litterally hundreds of thousands of worlds.

So, either its not possible for any civilization to warp space or travel faster than light, or we are alone...at least in this galaxy. JMO.


Your view is only as good as the tools you use.

This isn't an indictment against you, it's a statement as a whole.

JJG
02-26-2009, 09:29 AM
That is of course absurd, as it has been shown in experiments that you can form basic organic molecules with nothing but water, oxygen, carbon dioxide and lightning, from that, reactions to create ever more complex molecules happen easily.

Correct me if Im wrong, but no one yet has been able to synthesize a protocell using basic components which would have the necessary properties of life. The theory of Abiogenesis is still pretty incomplete.

Br0nc0Buster
02-26-2009, 09:53 AM
Correct me if Im wrong, but no one yet has been able to synthesize a protocell using basic components which would have the necessary properties of life. The theory of Abiogenesis is still pretty incomplete.

First it isnt a theory
Second, organic material has been created out of gases(it was done in the 50s)

And also they are able to create living material out of nonliving material
They did it with bacteria I believe

I am pretty sure they have already shown it is possible for abiogenesis to occur.

Peoples Champ
02-26-2009, 09:59 AM
I think I have played on this Computer created synthetic galaxy, I was playing Halo.

alkemical
02-26-2009, 10:00 AM
http://importantshock.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/fractal-wrongness.jpg

JJG
02-26-2009, 10:42 AM
First it isnt a theory
Second, organic material has been created out of gases(it was done in the 50s)

And also they are able to create living material out of nonliving material
They did it with bacteria I believe

I am pretty sure they have already shown it is possible for abiogenesis to occur.

your refering to the miller-urey experiment correct?

simple organic materials were produced (amino acids), but it was far from a complete living biological system. It has not shown the exact sequence of chemical events that lead to the first nucliec acids necessary for life.

I havent heard of the bacteria experiment, care to elaborate?

abiogenesis is still reletively new, and there are several hypothesis out there, none which are completely accepted as far as I know. Granted, Im no scientist, but I do find it interesting.

Tombstone RJ
02-26-2009, 10:58 AM
We are not alone. The thought of this being true gives me a weird paradigm shift, probabaly similar to what people felt when Galileo told them the Earth was not the center of the solar system. It seems to me one of our cultural pinnacles in Judeo-Christian thought that there is one God and one people. Now it appears there may be one God, but many people, or whatnot. ;D

Researchers at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland constructed a computer model to create a synthetic galaxy with billions of stars and planets. They then studied how life evolved under various conditions in this virtual world, using a supercomputer to crunch the results.

In a paper published recently in the International Journal of Astrobiology, the researchers concluded that based on what they saw, at least 361 intelligent civilizations have emerged in the Milky Way since its creation, and as many as 38,000 may have formed.

Duncan Forgan, a doctoral candidate at the university who led the study, said he was surprised by the hardiness of life on these other worlds.

"The computer model takes into account what we refer to as resetting or extinction events. The classic example is the asteroid impact that may have wiped out the dinosaurs," Forgan said.

"I half-expected these events to disallow the rise of intelligence, and yet civilizations seemed to flourish."
http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/02/25/galaxy.planets.kepler/index.html

I've got a serious question here folks:

Why the hell doesn't the Obama Administration use a super computer to help understand the possibilities of different stimulus packages?

I've been thinking about this for a while.

Why, why??

Why not use a super computer to calculate all the possibilities of where money should be spent in order to create jobs, and where money should be saved?

Why just throw together a big document like the House/Senate did, with a bunch of crap that you don't know whether it will work or not?

Why not instead use the power of a super computer to calculate all the possible ramifications of spending and saving and where to put the money?

Certainly a super computer can calculate millions of different variables and show different possible conclusions.

Rohirrim
02-26-2009, 11:37 AM
I've got a serious question here folks:

Why the hell doesn't the Obama Administration use a super computer to help understand the possibilities of different stimulus packages?

I've been thinking about this for a while.

Why, why??

Why not use a super computer to calculate all the possibilities of where money should be spent in order to create jobs, and where money should be saved?

Why just throw together a big document like the House/Senate did, with a bunch of crap that you don't know whether it will work or not?

Why not instead use the power of a super computer to calculate all the possible ramifications of spending and saving and where to put the money?

Certainly a super computer can calculate millions of different variables and show different possible conclusions.

I think that's an excellent idea. :thumbs:

Rohirrim
02-26-2009, 11:40 AM
your refering to the miller-urey experiment correct?

simple organic materials were produced (amino acids), but it was far from a complete living biological system. It has not shown the exact sequence of chemical events that lead to the first nucliec acids necessary for life.

I havent heard of the bacteria experiment, care to elaborate?

abiogenesis is still reletively new, and there are several hypothesis out there, none which are completely accepted as far as I know. Granted, Im no scientist, but I do find it interesting.

I read one interesting theory. Scientists discovered bacterial life in the granite of a mine more than a thousand feet underground. These things could have survived when the surface of the Earth was entirely molten. It was hypothesized that if organisms could live there, they could live in the icy rocks flying through space we call "comets." That still doesn't answer how life started, but it might answer how it could propagate through the universe.

alkemical
02-26-2009, 11:47 AM
I read one interesting theory. Scientists discovered bacterial life in the granite of a mine more than a thousand feet underground. These things could have survived when the surface of the Earth was entirely molten. It was hypothesized that if organisms could live there, they could live in the icy rocks flying through space we call "comets." That still doesn't answer how life started, but it might answer how it could propagate through the universe.

RNA has been reported in comet dust, etc.

RNA, is very interesting. IF RNA landed in a pool of amino acids......

bowtown
02-26-2009, 11:57 AM
I've got a serious question here folks:

Why the hell doesn't the Obama Administration use a super computer to help understand the possibilities of different stimulus packages?

I've been thinking about this for a while.

Why, why??

Why not use a super computer to calculate all the possibilities of where money should be spent in order to create jobs, and where money should be saved?

Why just throw together a big document like the House/Senate did, with a bunch of crap that you don't know whether it will work or not?

Why not instead use the power of a super computer to calculate all the possible ramifications of spending and saving and where to put the money?

Certainly a super computer can calculate millions of different variables and show different possible conclusions.


Well I think that there are just too many variables. With physics you have a concrete base set of rules that you are assuming everything operates by that you can plug into the computer as your model and then bounce things off of it. With economics there really is no set of rules. Too many little things can cause huge changes and the variables and behaviors of people from situation to situation are almost impossible to predict with any sort of accuracy. What works well in one situation could very well have the reverse effect in another. That's why, to a certain extent you have so many people who completely disagree with each other on the right way to fix it. No one can really be sure. The best you can do is to pick the philosophy you think fits best for the situation you are dealing with and try it out.

JJG
02-26-2009, 11:58 AM
I read one interesting theory. Scientists discovered bacterial life in the granite of a mine more than a thousand feet underground. These things could have survived when the surface of the Earth was entirely molten. It was hypothesized that if organisms could live there, they could live in the icy rocks flying through space we call "comets." That still doesn't answer how life started, but it might answer how it could propagate through the universe.

yes, I believe we have found amino acids in comets. Organic compounds are not all that unusual in outerspace and comets do a good job of protecting the inner layers from uv light or solar evaporation.

Archer81
02-26-2009, 11:59 AM
I've got a serious question here folks:

Why the hell doesn't the Obama Administration use a super computer to help understand the possibilities of different stimulus packages?

I've been thinking about this for a while.

Why, why??

Why not use a super computer to calculate all the possibilities of where money should be spent in order to create jobs, and where money should be saved?

Why just throw together a big document like the House/Senate did, with a bunch of crap that you don't know whether it will work or not?

Why not instead use the power of a super computer to calculate all the possible ramifications of spending and saving and where to put the money?

Certainly a super computer can calculate millions of different variables and show different possible conclusions.



That would take time, and as we know, we cant wait long enough for the geniuses in DC to read a bill they created in the first place, so how can we wait the week or so it would take a super computer to run through every conceivable scenario? WE ARE IN CRISIS! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!


:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
02-26-2009, 12:00 PM
I think that's an excellent idea. :thumbs:

Why don't they do this?

Hell, Obama has already stated the economy is so bad it's a National Security issue.

So I say go to the NSA and use one of there many computers to start calculating variables and how it would effect the US and world economy.

Why the hell not?

Rohirrim
02-26-2009, 12:37 PM
Why don't they do this?

Hell, Obama has already stated the economy is so bad it's a National Security issue.

So I say go to the NSA and use one of there many computers to start calculating variables and how it would effect the US and world economy.

Why the hell not?

It appears to me that Obama is going with what has worked in the past: Job creation. Like I heard one economist say, if you took all the planes, tanks and ships America produced in WWII and tossed them into the ocean, the effect would have been no different. It was all those jobs that ended The Depression.

bowtown
02-26-2009, 12:45 PM
Why don't they do this?

Hell, Obama has already stated the economy is so bad it's a National Security issue.

So I say go to the NSA and use one of there many computers to start calculating variables and how it would effect the US and world economy.

Why the hell not?

Again, how can you test things on a model, if you can't agree what the model should look like? For example, how did we get out of the Great Depression? Depends on who you ask. Some believe it was due to FDRs New Deal, most think it was the war or a combination of the two. If it was the war then why? Was it because of other economies failing, was it because of the spending? Does today's economy even work the same as it did back then? We operate on a much more global scale now. For the last few decades it was widely believed that the economy could be kept in check with interest rates. Well, a few months ago that theory basically hit a brick wall. So you see, if there aren’t really any agreed upon absolutes or rules to the economy then it is almost impossible to predict how investing and spending is going to react in any given circumstance. Some economists will say we are in the lurch for one reason, while others will tell you it is a different cause. So it doesn't matter how many variables you throw at it, the results are going to be unreliable. Whatever model one side comes up with is going to be disputed by the other side as being wrong in its original premises.

broncosteven
02-26-2009, 01:17 PM
It appears to me that Obama is going with what has worked in the past: Job creation. Like I heard one economist say, if you took all the planes, tanks and ships America produced in WWII and tossed them into the ocean, the effect would have been no different. It was all those jobs that ended The Depression.

There were many components. It is one thing to put people to work but I am too old and not healthy enough to pour concrete for our Autobahns, I mean highways.

If we invade Canada after our infrastructure is in place, negotiate a treaty with Mexico only to invade them for their oil I will know for sure where he got his plan.

alkemical
02-26-2009, 01:20 PM
It appears to me that Obama is going with what has worked in the past: Job creation. Like I heard one economist say, if you took all the planes, tanks and ships America produced in WWII and tossed them into the ocean, the effect would have been no different. It was all those jobs that ended The Depression.

Now you understand the genius of my presidential solution to a war with mexico. ;)

broncosteven
02-26-2009, 01:22 PM
Now you understand the genius of my presidential solution to a war with mexico. ;)

Canada is really the sudetenland, I mean homeland, for many American brothers. It needs to be liberated.

alkemical
02-26-2009, 01:23 PM
That's in my plan too.....

Trust me, the only caveat is....

that i need about 50million people to die on the N/A continent. So i need a good bloody turf war on the southern border

Rohirrim
02-26-2009, 01:39 PM
There were many components. It is one thing to put people to work but I am too old and not healthy enough to pour concrete for our Autobahns, I mean highways.

If we invade Canada after our infrastructure is in place, negotiate a treaty with Mexico only to invade them for their oil. I will know for sure where he got his plan.

Julius Caesar?

broncosteven
02-26-2009, 01:45 PM
Julius Caesar?

Your 1,945ish years off.

Rohirrim
02-26-2009, 01:50 PM
Only on the Mane could a thread go from talking about life in the universe to invading Mexico in four pages. Hilarious!

broncosteven
02-26-2009, 01:53 PM
That's in my plan too.....

Trust me, the only caveat is....

that i need about 50million people to die on the N/A continent. So i need a good bloody turf war on the southern border

Can I be your Panzer, I mean Armored Division General?

My plan would be to sweep in from the Galvaston side of TX and sweep quickly towards Acapulco cutting off Mexico City from the rest of the country with rapid advancing force of armored and airborne divisions.

After we cut the head off we can push southward. May need an amphibian landings from the east at Cancun to help with 2nd front pressing west.

Will need to take Panama canal that same day but that is your Navy's issue.

Once we have Mexico we can land on Venezulea for their oil.

alkemical
02-26-2009, 01:59 PM
Can I be your Panzer, I mean Armored Division General?

My plan would be to sweep in from the Galvaston side of TX and sweep quickly towards Acapulco cutting off Mexico City from the rest of the country with rapid advancing force of armored and airborne divisions.

After we cut the head off we can push southward. May need an amphibian landings from the east at Cancun to help with 2nd front pressing west.

Will need to take Panama canal that same day but that is your Navy's issue.

Once we have Mexico we can land on Venezulea for their oil.


See, i'm glad someone else gets it.

Rohirrim
02-26-2009, 01:59 PM
If this was a CIV game I would have invaded Mexico a long time ago. ;D

alkemical
02-26-2009, 02:01 PM
If this was a CIV game I would have invaded Mexico a long time ago. ;D

Look, after Mexico is conquered and stable, then we just announce canada is ours - then we create meximericanada - move to the amero - and boom - all our problems are solved...

We might need an economic disaster to push people into it though....

broncosteven
02-26-2009, 02:07 PM
Look, after Mexico is conquered and stable, then we just announce canada is ours - then we create meximericanada - move to the amero - and boom - all our problems are solved...

We might need an economic disaster to push people into it though....

Why did Manifest destiny only go west? What about north and south?

We need to control Venezuwhatsitspelt oil though for all this to work. We sell cheap to rest of South America and then decide if we need to annex their resources.

alkemical
02-26-2009, 02:14 PM
Why did Manifest destiny only go west? What about north and south?

We need to control Venezuwhatsitspelt oil though for all this to work. We sell cheap to rest of South America and then decide if we need to annex their resources.

Maybe they had bad maps...


I'm alright with Venezuela.

Rohirrim
02-26-2009, 02:45 PM
They made a mistake when they took the name for this continent, America, from the mapmaker's name, Amerigo Vespucci. It should have been Vespucciland. ;D

gyldenlove
02-26-2009, 03:00 PM
They made a mistake when they took the name for this continent, America, from the mapmaker's name, Amerigo Vespucci. It should have been Vespucciland. ;D

I absolutely agree.

watermock
02-26-2009, 03:15 PM
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Archer81
02-26-2009, 04:16 PM
They made a mistake when they took the name for this continent, America, from the mapmaker's name, Amerigo Vespucci. It should have been Vespucciland. ;D



United States of Vespucciland? Uhh...


:Broncos:

Archer81
02-26-2009, 04:21 PM
Can I be your Panzer, I mean Armored Division General?

My plan would be to sweep in from the Galvaston side of TX and sweep quickly towards Acapulco cutting off Mexico City from the rest of the country with rapid advancing force of armored and airborne divisions.

After we cut the head off we can push southward. May need an amphibian landings from the east at Cancun to help with 2nd front pressing west.

Will need to take Panama canal that same day but that is your Navy's issue.

Once we have Mexico we can land on Venezulea for their oil.



No no no. All wrong. You stage it so it seems elements of the Mexican army attacked US border patrol agents, then in a "lightning move" send armored infantry units into Mexico while firebombing every population center you run into; meanwhile stonewalling the media to ensure total domination of the narative. Then, when the uberaggressive mexican fascists have been conquered, you set up a commission for the integration of the US and Mexican nations, as is the will of the conquered people, setting the stage for the conquest of a ripe central america and passive Canada...moo ha ha ha...:thanku:


:Broncos:

Durango
02-26-2009, 04:22 PM
There were those who believed we should be named New Britain, or after the break-up, the United States of New Britain.

It was even proposed in the Continental Congress.

Archer81
02-26-2009, 04:24 PM
Why did Manifest destiny only go west? What about north and south?

We need to control Venezuwhatsitspelt oil though for all this to work. We sell cheap to rest of South America and then decide if we need to annex their resources.


We have gone after Canada three seperate times in our history, each time being beat by the British, twice in war, once at the conference table (54-40 or fight). We conquered Mexico, but did not want Mexico proper...you know, it being filled with spanish speaking Catholics...cant have that in an Anglo Protestant dominated country...if the US conqured JUST to conquer, Western hemisphere would look alot friggin different.


:Broncos:

Tombstone RJ
02-26-2009, 04:24 PM
Well I think that there are just too many variables. With physics you have a concrete base set of rules that you are assuming everything operates by that you can plug into the computer as your model and then bounce things off of it. With economics there really is no set of rules. Too many little things can cause huge changes and the variables and behaviors of people from situation to situation are almost impossible to predict with any sort of accuracy. What works well in one situation could very well have the reverse effect in another. That's why, to a certain extent you have so many people who completely disagree with each other on the right way to fix it. No one can really be sure. The best you can do is to pick the philosophy you think fits best for the situation you are dealing with and try it out.

Sorry, I missed this post so I did not comment on it. However, I think your point is extremely valid.

Yah, I know there are so many variables that its almost impossible to plug the data into the computer and ask it to more or less play out a scenario. Also, you are correct in that there is no constant on which to base the calculations. Everything is shifting, and how does a computer calculate or predict human being's responses?

All I know is that there are some incredibly powerful computers out there that make like, hundreds of millions of calculations per second. My other contention is that everything is based on numbers and that includes economic condition and parameters like money, stock market data, resources like raw materials, basic accounting principles, etc... it's all numbers. Heck, there's a valid argument that everything in the cosmos/universe is based on numbers, everything.

So, why not plug some numbers into a software that is kinda like that game where you build a city and let the computer program project the future? That is, a software has to be developed to keep the numbers in perspective and give the computer a goal to reach.

Why not I say? :wiggle:

Where's TheDave?

Old Dude
02-26-2009, 04:32 PM
Unfortunately oakland was formed in our solar system.

Yeah but I think the thread was mainly talking about intelligent life.

Br0nc0Buster
02-27-2009, 10:31 AM
your refering to the miller-urey experiment correct?

simple organic materials were produced (amino acids), but it was far from a complete living biological system. It has not shown the exact sequence of chemical events that lead to the first nucliec acids necessary for life.

I havent heard of the bacteria experiment, care to elaborate?

abiogenesis is still reletively new, and there are several hypothesis out there, none which are completely accepted as far as I know. Granted, Im no scientist, but I do find it interesting.

Yes I was referring to the Urey experiment in the 50s for the creation of organic material.
In "The Selfish Gene" Dawkins explains the process that could of occured for the creation of replicators
I dont remember all of it, but he made it sound like it was unlikely to occur, but given the age of the universe and how many planets are in it, it was bound to happen at least a few times.

If you want me to specifically quote him I can get my book, or you can like check it out from a library and read it yourself.

As far as the bacteria stuff, this isnt the specific article I read, but I think this is something similar to what I was talking about

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299857,00.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-11-13-new-life-usat_x.htm

And in this one I think they created a virus, now if a virus is a live I am not sure, but it does reproduce