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View Full Version : dj says defensive players felt like "second class citizens"


tsiguy96
02-22-2009, 10:33 PM
muy interesante.
You want the good news or the bad news? Because, as we all know, when it comes to the Broncos' defense, the news is never all good.

OK then, the bad news it is. The Broncos' defense wasn't one of the worst in the NFL last season. It was the worst, the very worst, and nothing but the worst.

Numbers? You want numbers? The Broncos ranked 29th in overall defense. Now for the fine print: Their offense ranked second. The three teams below Denver in defense Seattle at No. 30, Kansas City at 31 and Detroit at 32 ranked 28th, 24th and 30th in offense.

One of the reasons those teams were so inept defensively was because their offenses were almost as bad. They seldom controlled the ball and left their defenses on the field too long to be effective. The Broncos? They didn't have those excuses. All they had was a troubling lack of talent.

Things got so ugly that a culture of failure developed in the locker room. But don't take my word for it. We take you to D.J. Williams, who admitted that he and his defensive teammates felt like "second-class citizens" compared to the offense.

Now for the good news. It took a coaching change and a major upheaval in the personnel department, but the Broncos finally are making moves that were every bit as inevitable as they were overdue.

If Mike Shanahan were in charge, Bob Slowik would have returned to oversee a defense with a handful of new starters. Instead, Josh McDaniels and his staff have gutted the defensive depth chart, dumping five starters in a matter of days.

The best news of all isn't that those marginal players are gone. It's that the powers that be at Dove Valley finally have quit rationalizing and begun acknowledging the depths of the team's problems.

Not that getting rid of all those starters is the answer. The answer can only come by replacing them with better players. That won't be easy, particularly in the short run, what with the purge having cost the Broncos millions in cap hits.

Since we live in the real world in this corner of the sports section, I dialed up an NFL player agent Wednesday to get his take on the Broncos' post-purge prospects for 2009.

"In a way, I appreciate what they're doing," he said. "In the long haul, they had to get that dead weight out of there. It's probably smart. They'll have brand new guys, so you know they won't have the pressure to win next season. It's like, 'Let's get rid of this mess on our hands and upgrade. Then we can win down the road."

As opposed to next season, when the Broncos' schedule includes Pittsburgh, New England, Dallas, Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Baltimore and the Giants.

Only time will tell if McDaniels will be a successful NFL head coach. But if so, it's going to be later, not sooner.

enjolras
02-22-2009, 10:39 PM
Didn't Champ say something to the same effect?

FireFly
02-22-2009, 11:22 PM
Well, the one thing I got from that and my glass is half empty perspective is the

"we can win down the road as opposed to next season"

I don't like the idea that they're given up on the coming season.

bpc
02-22-2009, 11:27 PM
2 things come to mind. There's the problem of lack of talent, and then the problem of lack of leadership.

Since Al Wilson left, nobody has been able to step in and fill his void. DJ has put up some nice production but is about as opposite a leader as there could be. Unfortunately we re-upped him to a huge deal and expectations are that he will fill that void and he can't.

We need to be very smart with our money and draft picks over the coming weeks and months. The leadership issue is one that needs to be rectified ASAP if the defense is to get better.

Popps
02-22-2009, 11:39 PM
Josh McDaniels and his staff have gutted the defensive depth chart, dumping five starters in a matter of days.

**** yea.

Mother**** yea!

Mother****in **** yea!!!!!!!!!

Broncobuddy7
02-22-2009, 11:46 PM
I hope that people don't lose their minds and ask for McDaniels head if the Broncos are a .500 team again next year. I agree... this "rebuilding" process may take some time.

SoCalBronco
02-22-2009, 11:50 PM
I hope that people don't lose their minds and ask for McDaniels head if the Broncos are a .500 team again next year. I agree... this "rebuilding" process may take some time.

Nobody is expecting anything next year. Even those of us that are less than enthralled with the staff and the FO recognize that no matter who was coaching the team next year, it was going to be difficult in light of the tremendous work that needed to be done on defense and the exceedingly difficult schedule.

I don't care for the regime, but they get a complete mulligan for 2009. It's unfair to expect them to do anything immediately given the challenges they are facing.

BroncoMan4ever
02-23-2009, 12:03 AM
i am not expecting a super bowl run and i know there are going to be snags, all i want to see to consider next season a positive even if we end at .500, is the team get better as the season goes, and show promise for the upcoming years. if we go 6-10 next season but the majority of our losses are by 7 or less, i will consider that a good year and a positive to build upon.

now i am not saying i wouldn't mind seeing us in the playoffs again, it has been too damn long to not be caring about football in january, it is time to get back to the playoffs, but i can live one more season without playoffs as long as the team is competing and not just rolling over or getting gutted every week.

Popps
02-23-2009, 12:05 AM
I hope that people don't lose their minds and ask for McDaniels head if the Broncos are a .500 team again next year. I agree... this "rebuilding" process may take some time.

Please.

People are going to be up his ass if we're not a playoff team THIS year. It's a given. Just read some of the posts around here. He's already been deemed a failure and a cheater, today alone.

This place will be melt-down central, almost guaranteed.

That said, there's also a good contingent of people around here who understand the move into the future... and who have realistic but optimistic expectations.

We'll get our first look into the overall game plan in about a week when FA starts.

Can't wait.

Broncobuddy7
02-23-2009, 01:56 AM
Please.

People are going to be up his ass if we're not a playoff team THIS year. It's a given. Just read some of the posts around here. He's already been deemed a failure and a cheater, today alone.

This place will be melt-down central, almost guaranteed.

That said, there's also a good contingent of people around here who understand the move into the future... and who have realistic but optimistic expectations.

We'll get our first look into the overall game plan in about a week when FA starts.

Can't wait.

Me either!

broncocalijohn
02-23-2009, 02:19 AM
2nd class citizens for a second and third rate job in 2008. WIth the schedule for 2009, going .500 would be pretty good. A new coach, new scheme and a lot of new faces will still be an uphill battle but at least we know that the top of the hill climb might be one year.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 04:32 AM
2 things come to mind. There's the problem of lack of talent, and then the problem of lack of leadership.

Since Al Wilson left, nobody has been able to step in and fill his void. DJ has put up some nice production but is about as opposite a leader as there could be. Unfortunately we re-upped him to a huge deal and expectations are that he will fill that void and he can't.

We need to be very smart with our money and draft picks over the coming weeks and months. The leadership issue is one that needs to be rectified ASAP if the defense is to get better.

Great post.

On the OP: They shouldn't have felt like second class citizens, they should've felt even worse. Like the Denver Broncos illegal immigrants.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 04:36 AM
Nobody is expecting anything next year. Even those of us that are less than enthralled with the staff and the FO recognize that no matter who was coaching the team next year, it was going to be difficult in light of the tremendous work that needed to be done on defense and the exceedingly difficult schedule.

I don't care for the regime, but they get a complete mulligan for 2009. It's unfair to expect them to do anything immediately given the challenges they are facing.

I'm less giving. We've had schedules look rough and turn out to be pretty easy. We've had schedules look simple and turn out to be very tough (last year, for example).

Many of those teams are consistently good, but the last time we were in that same schedule rotation, Den went 13-3 and one game out of the big dance with a host of horrid offensive players.

McDaniel's and Colonel Xanders want to win people over? Win the division now.

Spider
02-23-2009, 05:32 AM
We had a defense ?

Broncojef
02-23-2009, 05:38 AM
I hope that people don't lose their minds and ask for McDaniels head if the Broncos are a .500 team again next year. I agree... this "rebuilding" process may take some time.

Half the people here still wanted Shanny around after being embarrassed the last two years. If they can put up with that this staff should be easy to love.

spdirty
02-23-2009, 05:48 AM
Half the people here still wanted Shanny around after being embarrassed the last two years. If they can put up with that this staff should be easy to love.

...after they win 2 super bowls in their first 4 years. And, we do need to remember Mike Shanahan going 8-8 and being probably the most inconsistent team in the league his first year.

dbfan4life
02-23-2009, 05:56 AM
I don't get all the doom and gloom here most of the time. Our offense will be back full strength behind a proven system. We have all the weapons we need on that side of the ball sans a RB and maybe not even that if Torain and Hillis are back at full strength. There should be zero drop off on that side of the ball. Our defense sucked last year. Now McD has blown up the roster on that side of the ball. Even if he adds players that are marginally better than those that were there before, we're a better team. I don't expect playoffs next year but I fully expect us to be competitive with our offense keeping us in games while the D experience some growing pains. Again, I fail to see where anything that has been done this offseason makes us a worse team than we were last year. And for all intents and purposes, the offseason has really just started.

Northman
02-23-2009, 06:04 AM
Nobody is expecting anything next year. Even those of us that are less than enthralled with the staff and the FO recognize that no matter who was coaching the team next year, it was going to be difficult in light of the tremendous work that needed to be done on defense and the exceedingly difficult schedule.

I don't care for the regime, but they get a complete mulligan for 2009. It's unfair to expect them to do anything immediately given the challenges they are facing.


I am. He wasnt brought in to continue the mediocrity that Shanahan left behind. He is already purging the defense of the subpar players. Although i dont expect a SB i do expect a 8-8 or better record considering what we were at least able to do last year with that train wreck. The guy was brought in to win and improve. If you cant improve on 8-8 with a 29th ranked defense than there's a problem. Again, im not expecting SB but the offense is virtually already there aside from a decent RB. And if they are going to address some of the defense in FA than there's no reason not to expect a better season than last.

Northman
02-23-2009, 06:05 AM
I don't get all the doom and gloom here most of the time. Our offense will be back full strength behind a proven system. We have all the weapons we need on that side of the ball sans a RB and maybe not even that if Torain and Hillis are back at full strength. There should be zero drop off on that side of the ball. Our defense sucked last year. Now McD has blown up the roster on that side of the ball. Even if he adds players that are marginally better than those that were there before, we're a better team. I don't expect playoffs next year but I fully expect us to be competitive with our offense keeping us in games while the D experience some growing pains. Again, I fail to see where anything that has been done this offseason makes us a worse team than we were last year. And for all intents and purposes, the offseason has really just started.


Yep. :thumbsup:

Beantown Bronco
02-23-2009, 06:05 AM
Well, the one thing I got from that and my glass is half empty perspective is the

"we can win down the road as opposed to next season"

I don't like the idea that they're given up on the coming season.

Dude. You do realize that those quotes came from a random NFL player agent and NOT a Denver Bronco player, don't you?

Broncoman13
02-23-2009, 06:19 AM
2 things come to mind. There's the problem of lack of talent, and then the problem of lack of leadership.

Since Al Wilson left, nobody has been able to step in and fill his void. DJ has put up some nice production but is about as opposite a leader as there could be. Unfortunately we re-upped him to a huge deal and expectations are that he will fill that void and he can't.

We need to be very smart with our money and draft picks over the coming weeks and months. The leadership issue is one that needs to be rectified ASAP if the defense is to get better.

Great point as always. That is why guys like Ray Lewis and Al Wilson are so important to a defense. I don't know enough about Rey Maualuga to say whether he capable of that type of role. John Gruden was very high on Rey Rey which tells me all I need to know about the guy. He would bring the attitude and intensity and perhaps grow into that vocal leader... what do you know about him?

brncs_fan
02-23-2009, 06:31 AM
You want to be treated like NFL players?

Try playing like NFL players.

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 06:37 AM
What is this article from?

DenverBrit
02-23-2009, 06:39 AM
What is this article from?

ditto.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 06:41 AM
What is this article from?

Translation:

http://www.freewebs.com/hyrulianreligion/link_evo.jpg

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 06:44 AM
I don't get all the doom and gloom here most of the time. Our offense will be back full strength behind a proven system. We have all the weapons we need on that side of the ball sans a RB and maybe not even that if Torain and Hillis are back at full strength. There should be zero drop off on that side of the ball. Our defense sucked last year. Now McD has blown up the roster on that side of the ball. Even if he adds players that are marginally better than those that were there before, we're a better team. I don't expect playoffs next year but I fully expect us to be competitive with our offense keeping us in games while the D experience some growing pains. Again, I fail to see where anything that has been done this offseason makes us a worse team than we were last year. And for all intents and purposes, the offseason has really just started.

The offense is learning a new system. That means everyone will be starting over. Jay is in hitting the books early, but that doesn't mean the rest of them are too. There will be a drop off in production.

On defense everyone can cheer all they want for the starters getting cut. However people fail to realize we are left with the guys who weren't good enough to play in front of them. If we don't find some replacements it's going to be royally epic fail (though the coaching changes alone should be good enough to make some improvement.)

Finally there's the schedule. We have a brutal one and while the schedule always looks different after the season starts, it usually doesn't look that different. A few get better and a few get worse, but we have a whole slew of top teams, and at least half will probably still be good when we face them and clean our clocks when they come to town.

That said, it's ok. Transition is rough and we'll have higher picks at the end of a "throw away" year. It's win-win from an expectations standpoint. We should win 4-7 games. If we win more than six, it's a success especially if the team gets better as it goes along. If not, we met expectations and will have more high draft picks to try and replenish ourselves.

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 07:11 AM
The offense is learning a new system. That means everyone will be starting over. Jay is in hitting the books early, but that doesn't mean the rest of them are too. There will be a drop off in production.

On defense everyone can cheer all they want for the starters getting cut. However people fail to realize we are left with the guys who weren't good enough to play in front of them. If we don't find some replacements it's going to be royally epic fail (though the coaching changes alone should be good enough to make some improvement.)

Finally there's the schedule. We have a brutal one and while the schedule always looks different after the season starts, it usually doesn't look that different. A few get better and a few get worse, but we have a whole slew of top teams, and at least half will probably still be good when we face them and clean our clocks when they come to town.

That said, it's ok. Transition is rough and we'll have higher picks at the end of a "throw away" year. It's win-win from an expectations standpoint. We should win 4-7 games. If we win more than six, it's a success especially if the team gets better as it goes along. If not, we met expectations and will have more high draft picks to try and replenish ourselves.

the defensive "starters" who got cut dont start on 20+ other teams, as you will see when none are picked up or are signed to be backups. theres no reason tehy shouldnt get cut if they arent performing at all, which the worst defense in broncos history was not. it will be very, very hard for next years defense to perform worse. did you even watch bronco games this year? they allowed like 29 ppg this year, how do you not expect improvement?

Irish Stout
02-23-2009, 07:15 AM
The offense is learning a new system. That means everyone will be starting over. Jay is in hitting the books early, but that doesn't mean the rest of them are too. There will be a drop off in production.

On defense everyone can cheer all they want for the starters getting cut. However people fail to realize we are left with the guys who weren't good enough to play in front of them. If we don't find some replacements it's going to be royally epic fail (though the coaching changes alone should be good enough to make some improvement.)

You mean the guys who were left on the bench so an injured DJ and Champ could come back and suck it up in the final two games? You mean the guys who filled in for the majority of the D starters a little over halfway through the year and ended up giving us better results than the starters?

There are going to be growing pains and losing starters is going to effect the team. This is always the case. But some of the coaching decisions as to schemes and players last year were just so bad, its hard for most of us to see our D go anywhere but up... really where else can they go?

bpc
02-23-2009, 07:20 AM
Great point as always. That is why guys like Ray Lewis and Al Wilson are so important to a defense. I don't know enough about Rey Maualuga to say whether he capable of that type of role. John Gruden was very high on Rey Rey which tells me all I need to know about the guy. He would bring the attitude and intensity and perhaps grow into that vocal leader... what do you know about him?

Gruden has vocalized everything i've said about prospects on NFL network EXCEPT about Maualuga but I expected that. He loves him. I'm luke-warm on him. Rey looks like a Levar Arrington type to me. Put him in an established defense that has leaderships and structure, he'll most likely thrive. He's an explosive playmaker who is at his best when things around him are simplified. If he is allowed to run from point A to point B, he'll blow up anything along that way. Rey's problem is that he is slow to recognize things and when he has to read too many keys, he gets caught out of position. His strength greatly decreases when he's trapped in the phone booth with somebody, whether it be the offensive line or fullback. Two notable offensive linemen handled Maualuga in matchups, AQ Shipley and Adam Levitre. Especially in the Oregon State game, Rey was blown away and a freshman HB ran all over their defense.

If Maualuga goes to a defense like Baltimore, SD or NE... I think he is going to mesh right in and his role will be to do what he does best. Clean everything up. If he goes to a wasteland like Denver is right now, bare and thin on any kind of talent around him especially in the front, I think he's going to look and play like a bust early on.

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 07:27 AM
the defensive "starters" who got cut dont start on 20+ other teams, as you will see when none are picked up or are signed to be backups. theres no reason tehy shouldnt get cut if they arent performing at all, which the worst defense in broncos history was not. it will be very, very hard for next years defense to perform worse. did you even watch bronco games this year? they allowed like 29 ppg this year, how do you not expect improvement?

You're making all my points for me. They were terrible. They sucked. I totally agree. And now we have the guys that couldn't beat them out for starting positions!

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a197/bobknauer05/yay.jpg

You mean the guys who were left on the bench so an injured DJ and Champ could come back and suck it up in the final two games? You mean the guys who filled in for the majority of the D starters a little over halfway through the year and ended up giving us better results than the starters
DJ came back before he was ready and was playing very well before that. The new staff likes him too. Larsen and Woodyard were good, but Woodyard's size is a detriment in a 2-4. That leaves: all our crappy safeties and our crappy defensive line.

Yeah! They're going to be awesome!:flush:

epicSocialism4tw
02-23-2009, 07:31 AM
If Maualuga goes to a defense like Baltimore, SD or NE... I think he is going to mesh right in and his role will be to do what he does best. Clean everything up. If he goes to a wasteland like Denver is right now, bare and thin on any kind of talent around him especially in the front, I think he's going to look and play like a bust early on.

The same was said about Polamalu.

Not to say that any sort of equivalency should be established between the two, but the BBT need to invest in the defense like they havent in years, and high-intensity players like Maualaga would be encouraging place to start.

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 07:31 AM
You're making all my points for me. They were terrible. They sucked. I totally agree. And now we have the guys that couldn't beat them out for starting positions!


that would make sense if we were starting the season this week. considering we have 9 draft picks as well as them saying they will be aggressive in free agency, you have no point at all.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 07:34 AM
that would make sense if we were starting the season this week. considering we have 9 draft picks as well as them saying they will be aggressive in free agency, you have no point at all.

More good news:

We have 9 draft picks to be spent by a sports writer and a "capologist".

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 07:40 AM
More good news:

We have 9 draft picks to be spent by a sports writer and a "capologist".

even better big news: the sky is not falling. mcdaniels and nolan are not stupid and are capable of finding players to fit what they want to do, and the scouts that prepare that information for them are also not stupid or bowlen would not be employing them. sooo like i was saying, we have a LOT of defensive turnover coming, and it will only get better then last year.

montrose
02-23-2009, 07:50 AM
Rey's problem is that he is slow to recognize things and when he has to read too many keys, he gets caught out of position.

If this is the case, he won't be our pick. McDaniels, Nolan and Xanders want smart football players. If they're uncomfortable with his football IQ, they'll go in another direction.

If Maualuga goes to a defense like Baltimore, SD or NE... I think he is going to mesh right in and his role will be to do what he does best. Clean everything up. If he goes to a wasteland like Denver is right now, bare and thin on any kind of talent around him especially in the front, I think he's going to look and play like a bust early on.

That would really suck. If we take him I believe a big reason so will be to serve as our leader and heart, our new Al Wilson essentially. Mike Mayock has broken down enough flaws in his game that I'd be a bit worried drafting him that high if he lacked those leadership/heart qualities. For the record, I'm still on board with Cushing, I wouldn't mind a pass rusher because of their value although their bust-rate scares the hell out of me and I'm not even opposed to reaching a bit on Jackson.

Man the draft can't get here soon enough!

montrose
02-23-2009, 08:00 AM
More good news:

We have 9 draft picks to be spent by a sports writer and a "capologist".

Come on Rev, I think we all know who is going to be making these picks:

http://coloradosportsdesk.com/wp/wp-content/josh_mcdaniels.jpg

I don't buy this "new, lateral structure". Bowlen knows one football operational model. McDaniels may not have Shanahan's "power", but he's going to be the one making the football decisions. Xanders and Kidd will be his top consultants and money/cap guys (along with Bluem) - but I firmly believe McDaniels will be picking the talent.

http://web1.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Images/Top%20Stories/2009/xanders_elb_090212.jpg = http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/ted-sundquist2.png

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 08:01 AM
even better big news: the sky is not falling. mcdaniels and nolan are not stupid and are capable of finding players to fit what they want to do, and the scouts that prepare that information for them are also not stupid or bowlen would not be employing them. sooo like i was saying, we have a LOT of defensive turnover coming, and it will only get better then last year.

Nothing wrong with being hopeful, but we know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to this regime... and Nolan's personnel evaluation background isn't exactly all-world...

Mediator12
02-23-2009, 08:06 AM
If this is the case, he won't be our pick. McDaniels, Nolan and Xanders want smart football players. If they're uncomfortable with his football IQ, they'll go in another direction.



That would really suck. If we take him I believe a big reason so will be to serve as our leader and heart, our new Al Wilson essentially. Mike Mayock has broken down enough flaws in his game that I'd be a bit worried drafting him that high if he lacked those leadership/heart qualities. For the record, I'm still on board with Cushing, I wouldn't mind a pass rusher because of their value although their bust-rate scares the hell out of me and I'm not even opposed to reaching a bit on Jackson.

Man the draft can't get here soon enough!

Gruden's assessment of Maualuga was off the second he said he could drop and play coverage in Pete Carroll's defense. That was his major flaw at USC, he was not comfortable in coverage and was rarely asked to do so. He also was busy getting fired the week of the senior bowl when he should have seen him get worked over by weak ass TE's and RB's in coverage drills.

Combine that with having trouble reading keys and making the play when the DL does not protect him....That is enough for me to not want him @12, especially with the current rebuild of the DL.

montrose
02-23-2009, 08:13 AM
Gruden's assessment of Maualuga was off the second he said he could drop and play coverage in Pete Carroll's defense. That was his major flaw at USC, he was not comfortable in coverage and was rarely asked to do so. He also was busy getting fired the week of the senior bowl when he should have seen him get worked over by weak ass TE's and RB's in coverage drills.

Combine that with having trouble reading keys and making the play when the DL does not protect him....That is enough for me to not want him @12, especially with the current rebuild of the DL.

Who do you want Med?

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 08:14 AM
Gruden's assessment of Maualuga was off the second he said he could drop and play coverage in Pete Carroll's defense. That was his major flaw at USC, he was not comfortable in coverage and was rarely asked to do so. He also was busy getting fired the week of the senior bowl when he should have seen him get worked over by weak ass TE's and RB's in coverage drills.

Combine that with having trouble reading keys and making the play when the DL does not protect him....That is enough for me to not want him @12, especially with the current rebuild of the DL.

....yawn

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 08:26 AM
Come on Rev, I think we all know who is going to be making these picks:

http://coloradosportsdesk.com/wp/wp-content/josh_mcdaniels.jpg

I don't buy this "new, lateral structure". Bowlen knows one football operational model. McDaniels may not have Shanahan's "power", but he's going to be the one making the football decisions. Xanders and Kidd will be his top consultants and money/cap guys (along with Bluem) - but I firmly believe McDaniels will be picking the talent.

http://web1.denverbroncos.com/resources/custom/Images/Top%20Stories/2009/xanders_elb_090212.jpg = http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/ted-sundquist2.png

Is there any history of young coaches knowing how to pick players in the draft?

montrose
02-23-2009, 08:52 AM
Is there any history of young coaches knowing how to pick players in the draft?

Good question. I guess it depends on our definition of young.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 08:53 AM
Is there any history of young coaches knowing how to pick players in the draft?

Unfortunately, it's completely unprecedented in the modern era.

No 32 year old has been handed the keys to a billion dollar franchise with zero structure as far as checks and balances to his opinion.

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 08:58 AM
Unfortunately, it's completely unprecedented in the modern era.

No 32 year old has been handed the keys to a billion dollar franchise with zero structure as far as checks and balances to his opinion.

How about in any history? Has there even been a really young head coach or GM that has had a good draft? I'm including the seventies.

TonyR
02-23-2009, 09:00 AM
Is there any history of young coaches knowing how to pick players in the draft?

The McD/Xanders staff will be drafting using the same info the Goodman's would have been using. It's the same group of scouts. And if it makes you feel any better, or perhaps worse, the Goodman's don't exactly have a sterling reputation for drafting defensive talent or picking defensive FA's. I don't think I need to list all of the names from the past couple of years for you.

Mediator12
02-23-2009, 09:12 AM
Who do you want Med?

I have no idea at this point. I am still finalizing a lot of of the top players and 12 is a precarious spot to be in DEN's situation. This draft does not seem to fit the needs of this team switching to a 3-4 right away. It will be a lot closer to the draft before I think I can say who I would want. I do not even have a good speculative pick at this point, with that value.

Mediator12
02-23-2009, 09:18 AM
Is there any history of young coaches knowing how to pick players in the draft?

Impossible question to answer, as every organization is different and no one really knows as the organizational structures of these teams, much to our dismay, are not very public. In Den's case, the structure is definitely not known at this point, let alone understanding DEN's current organizational drafting structure. I know it changed several years back, but that has changed again as well with a new regime.

I could make a case for Mike Tomlin's last few drafts being productive, but we are talking about the franchise who has won the most SB's in history ;D I think the FO in PIT does pretty well whoever the coach would be. Same in INDY. Same in PHI.

TonyR
02-23-2009, 09:24 AM
In Den's case, the structure is definitely not known at this point, let alone understanding DEN's current organizational drafting structure.

It's funny but this is also true for the Shanny regime. The "good" picks of the last few years are credited to the Goodmans and, to a lesser extent, Shanahan himself. But the "bad" picks, particularly Moss and Crowder, and blamed on Bates. So who are we to believe was the ultimate decision maker? Whoever most conveniently fits one's argument?

Mediator12
02-23-2009, 09:24 AM
....yawn

I think I finally have this down to our real difference here. I think Maualuga is a Finishing piece of a defense. And you believe he can be a building or foundational piece that can be a team leader.

I am not buying Maualuga as a leader or building piece of a NFL defense like Al Wilson was in DEN or LEwis has been in BAL.

Los Broncos
02-23-2009, 09:27 AM
Dam, that is gut wrenching to read, the very worst!

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 09:47 AM
Nothing wrong with being hopeful, but we know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to this regime... and Nolan's personnel evaluation background isn't exactly all-world...

this regime is identical to every regime the broncos have had: the head coach makes the player decisions. he is helped by the people around him (like sundquist) but he is ultimately in charge of the players he will be coaching.

since we know absolutely nothing about HOW its going to pan out, why would someone be pessimistic and self fulfilling just to appease their ego if it doesnt? why not be optimistic, hope for the best for the team and be a real fan?

montrose
02-23-2009, 09:51 AM
since we know absolutely nothing about HOW its going to pan out, why would someone be pessimistic and self fulfilling just to appease their ego if it doesnt? why not be optimistic, hope for the best for the team and be a real fan?

Oh snap! :redpunch:

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 10:01 AM
this regime is identical to every regime the broncos have had: the head coach makes the player decisions. he is helped by the people around him (like sundquist) but he is ultimately in charge of the players he will be coaching.

since we know absolutely nothing about HOW its going to pan out, why would someone be pessimistic and self fulfilling just to appease their ego if it doesnt? why not be optimistic, hope for the best for the team and be a real fan?

That's especially funny considering I've stated several times I've giving them the benefit of the doubt and a chance, but that it looks very grim.

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 10:06 AM
That's especially funny considering I've stated several times I've giving them the benefit of the doubt and a chance, but that it looks very grim.

looks grim? after the defensive performance last year, EVERYTHING is looking up. it quite honestly CANT get worse then last year, the coaches would have to really try to make it worse.

the person leading the offense coached the best offense in NFL history and had matt cassel go 11-5, you really think the offense wont improve either?

if we went 8-8 with this "grim" team last year, how is it really going to get worse, when everything is looking up compared ot what happened last year?

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 10:08 AM
I think I finally have this down to our real difference here. I think Maualuga is a Finishing piece of a defense. And you believe he can be a building or foundational piece that can be a team leader.

I am not buying Maualuga as a leader or building piece of a NFL defense like Al Wilson was in DEN or LEwis has been in BAL.

I thought we finalized our fundamental difference of opinion over a year ago?

Also, just to clarify: Rey's a shining star (and I HATE USC players), while Raji is an UT. Maybe we can pull a Marcus Spears and take a 5 tech insanely early...?

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 10:09 AM
looks grim? after the defensive performance last year, EVERYTHING is looking up. it quite honestly CANT get worse then last year, the coaches would have to really try to make it worse.

the person leading the offense coached the best offense in NFL history and had matt cassel go 11-5, you really think the offense wont improve either?

if we went 8-8 with this "grim" team last year, how is it really going to get worse, when everything is looking up compared ot what happened last year?

Don't misinterpret me please.

I said the FO situation is grim.

And if you think 8-8 with the volume of injuries last year's team had was as bad as it gets, buckle up because you might get a dose of reality. I hope not.

bowtown
02-23-2009, 10:10 AM
looks grim? after the defensive performance last year, EVERYTHING is looking up. it quite honestly CANT get worse then last year, the coaches would have to really try to make it worse.

the person leading the offense coached the best offense in NFL history and had matt cassel go 11-5, you really think the offense wont improve either?

if we went 8-8 with this "grim" team last year, how is it really going to get worse, when everything is looking up compared ot what happened last year?

Quick little tidbit: Not everything is looking up from 8-8. Wish people would quit saying that. Things only looked up from 8-8 under Shanahan because we so infrequently dipped below it. With a new guard, there is no telling how big the right hand number could get... I'm hopefull for this team, but I'm tired of everyone saying there is nowhere to go but up.

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 10:31 AM
Quick little tidbit: Not everything is looking up from 8-8. Wish people would quit saying that. Things only looked up from 8-8 under Shanahan because we so infrequently dipped below it. With a new guard, there is no telling how big the right hand number could get... I'm hopefull for this team, but I'm tired of everyone saying there is nowhere to go but up.

1. do you foresee the offense getting worse?
2. do you foresee the defense getting worse?

you guys act like mcdaniels is picking up the lions or chiefs and trying to build them. this team had a very good offense already with the players having skillset that mcdaniels is very familiar with. nolan is much, much, much better then slowik, its not even comparable. you people see all the things that can go wrong with a new FO, me and others see everything that this team already has, and how little it needs to build on to be a competitor. if we had the 20th ranked D last year we would have won 2 more games. you really think nolan isnt capable of getting ATLEAST that, while mcdaniels perfects his spread with jay cutler and co?

bowtown
02-23-2009, 10:41 AM
1. do you foresee the offense getting worse?
2. do you foresee the defense getting worse?

you guys act like mcdaniels is picking up the lions or chiefs and trying to build them. this team had a very good offense already with the players having skillset that mcdaniels is very familiar with. nolan is much, much, much better then slowik, its not even comparable. you people see all the things that can go wrong with a new FO, me and others see everything that this team already has, and how little it needs to build on to be a competitor. if we had the 20th ranked D last year we would have won 2 more games. you really think nolan isnt capable of getting ATLEAST that, while mcdaniels perfects his spread with jay cutler and co?

I have absolutely no idea, but some of the decisions that have been made thus far have not instilled a lot of confidence in me. You say that all I see is what COULD go wrong with the FO, and what I'm saying is that I'm already seeing some questionalble moves.

I also don't know for sure that our offense is not going to get worse. You just fired the best offensive coach in the game. McDaniels may be a bright kid with good ideas, but will he be able to keep the offense moving forward? Just the fact that we are chagning schemes should probably make for some growing pains at first and a few setbacks.

As for the defense, yes, chances are they can't get worse, but who knows.

I really have no idea how this group is going to work together and if they are going to be able to adequittly fill our holes with the right guys. I really hope they will, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend that we can't still go down from here, and that things can not get worse. That's an optimism that only 12 spoiled years of Shanahan will get you.

Like I said, I'm hopeful for this team but I'm already seeing some things that are making me scratch my head and doubt.

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 10:42 AM
Don't misinterpret me please.

I said the FO situation is grim.

And if you think 8-8 with the volume of injuries last year's team had was as bad as it gets, buckle up because you might get a dose of reality. I hope not.

That's where I'm coming from. I feel good about the coaching staff and pessimistic about the front office.

Before I felt negative about the coaching staff but confident in the front office.

I would love to feel optimistic about both if there was any reason to be so. As it sits right now we have Xanders, who doesn't really scout players, doesn't evaluate talent and hasn't had any kind of experience or track record that he can do so. And we have Kidd, who was on a staff that brought in a bunch of garbage for the Patriots in free agency and then went to go work at ESPN for several years. He also raises the question of why so many teams passed him over until now. I'm not sold he "just loved ESPN sooooo much" that he wanted to stay. Then we have McDaniels who has no experience drafting and the passions of youth might lead him to make stupid choices in the draft. I have never heard of young coach having a successful draft.


The good news is we still have the bulk of our scouts in place. While the Goodmans made the call on many of the draft picks, they didn't get that information alone. The scouts and assistants in the front office were the ones breaking down film, assembling their workouts and putting things together in a package so the boys at the top could make the selections they needed to. If nothing else, the information we're providing Xanders and Mcdaniels will be accurate. On the defensive staff there's Nolan, whom I have total confidence in. He has experience as a coach and someone who works with a front office. He can identify and develop talent.

So it's not all bad. But there is more to be concerned about than excited about.

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 10:46 AM
1. do you foresee the offense getting worse?
Of course I do. They are learning a new system. You don't change systems and get better in production.
2. do you foresee the defense getting worse?
It might be a lateral move. I trust this staff to develop defensive talent, but they are scrapping the whole system for a new one and right now we have a team of guys who were not good enough to play in front of our garbage team. We might not be worse or even as bad, but it won't get that much better in one year after changing schemes.

TonyR
02-23-2009, 11:09 AM
I have never heard of young coach having a successful draft.


You make some good points and overall I agree for the most part but I'm not sold on this point. I don't know that age has anything to do with it. A coach making drafting decisions is only as good as those around him who are providing him the information. I don't know that you should assume that McD would be any worse than Shanahan at making draft choices if that's what you're doing.

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 11:13 AM
You make some good points and overall I agree for the most part but I'm not sold on this point. I don't know that age has anything to do with it. A coach making drafting decisions is only as good as those around him who are providing him the information. I don't know that you should assume that McD would be any worse than Shanahan at making draft choices if that's what you're doing.

It doesn't mean anything. It only means that if McDaniels has a successful draft he'll be the exception to the rule. Scouting and understanding players and how they fit in is something that experience can really help with. Someone who's seen a lot the good and bad signs can better anticipate how a prospect will turn out without getting blinded by the glitz of things like numbers.

Like I said, It doesn't mean anything, but it doesn't mean we have any reason to believe he'll be awesome. None of the people in charge of the draft have any track record, good or bad, of how to draft.

TonyR
02-23-2009, 11:14 AM
They are learning a new system. You don't change systems and get better in production.


I/we keep going back to these examples but I'm fairly certain that to some extent both Miami and Atlanta changed not only systems but personnel on both sides of the ball this past season. In both cases it worked out pretty well for the new coaches. A few years earlier a new staff took over in New Orleans and that team progressed significantly (Payton took a 3-13 team to 10-6 his first year). So there is plenty of evidence that coaching, scheme/system and player changes don't automatically result in a drop in production, and in fact we have some good evidence of just the opposite.

Beantown Bronco
02-23-2009, 11:20 AM
If Moss and Crowder truly were Bates picks, then I think that pretty much slams the door on the "you have to be older to draft well" line of thinking.

bowtown
02-23-2009, 11:23 AM
I/we keep going back to these examples but I'm fairly certain that to some extent both Miami and Atlanta changed not only systems but personnel on both sides of the ball this past season. In both cases it worked out pretty well for the new coaches. A few years earlier a new staff took over in New Orleans and that team progressed significantly (Payton took a 3-13 team to 10-6 his first year). So there is plenty of evidence that coaching, scheme/system and player changes don't automatically result in a drop in production, and in fact we have some good evidence of just the opposite.

But you are using teams with terrible offensive production under one regime, getting better in the next. That maybe the case with our defense, and I think we can expect to see some improvement there, but that's a little different than replacing one of the best offensive minds in football with new regime to run an already pretty explosive unit. I think you can expect to see a at least a little drop in that production, especially at first.

TonyR
02-23-2009, 11:28 AM
...but that's a little different than replacing one of the best offensive minds in football with new regime to run an already pretty explosive unit.

I don't completely disagree but at the same time you could argue that NE's offense was better than ours last season with their HOF QB not even on the field. McD may also be "one of the best offensive minds in football". We'll find out this season.

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 11:30 AM
I/we keep going back to these examples but I'm fairly certain that to some extent both Miami and Atlanta changed not only systems but personnel on both sides of the ball this past season. In both cases it worked out pretty well for the new coaches. A few years earlier a new staff took over in New Orleans and that team progressed significantly (Payton took a 3-13 team to 10-6 his first year). So there is plenty of evidence that coaching, scheme/system and player changes don't automatically result in a drop in production, and in fact we have some good evidence of just the opposite.

I'll give you the defense will probably improve, but the offense didn't finish number 2 in yards the year before. It was easier for the offenses of both teams to get better when it sucked balls the year before.

If Moss and Crowder truly were Bates picks, then I think that pretty much slams the door on the "you have to be older to draft well" line of thinking.
I don't think anyone is saying if you suck at evaluating talent then just getting older will make you able to do so.

montrose
02-23-2009, 11:36 AM
If Moss and Crowder truly were Bates picks, then I think that pretty much slams the door on the "you have to be older to draft well" line of thinking.

Mediator pointed out that it's a collaborative effort and we don't know if someone was entirely a "Shanny pick" or "Bates pick" or "Goodman pick". For all we know Goodman (who I recall reading was responsible for scouting for many of the southern players) may have championed Moss and Crowder. Goodman may have thought Moss was going to be the absolute sh*t. We weren't in the room so we really don't know.

But you are using teams with terrible offensive production under one regime, getting better in the next. That maybe the case with our defense, and I think we can expect to see some improvement there, but that's a little different than replacing one of the best offensive minds in football with new regime to run an already pretty explosive unit. I think you can expect to see a at least a little drop in that production, especially at first.

Some of these dramatic turnarounds are due in large part to major upgrades at QB:

Saints: Brooks to Brees
Dolphins: Lemon to Pennington
Falcons: Harrington/Leftwich/Redman to Ryan
Ravens: Boller to Flacco

We're not going to be getting that type of upgrade although I'm hopeful Jay will be more efficient and less turnover-prone under McDaniels. The reality is that we were an 8-8 team getting worse by the week with a Pro Bowl QB. You can look at it two ways:

1) Optimistic: QB is the hardest spot to find and we've already got that. We just need to get the defense a little better and fine tune the offense a bit and we'll be in great shape.

2) Pessimistic: Holy crap we had a Pro Bowl QB and still only finished 8-8 and got the tar kicked out of us late in the year! We have so much to fix!

bpc
02-23-2009, 11:36 AM
The same was said about Polamalu.

Not to say that any sort of equivalency should be established between the two, but the BBT need to invest in the defense like they havent in years, and high-intensity players like Maualaga would be encouraging place to start.

There's a difference between the two. Polumalu is mature, has a family and probably runs a sub 4.4 on the football field which cover his mistakes IF he makes them.

Maualuga comes off as immature, comes from a rough background and has short area quickness, DEFINITELY not long speed like Polumalu has.

Once again and Med has touched on this as well... Rey is not the guy you want to build a defense around. He clearly lacks the leadership skills needed to lift up a defense to another level. He isn't concentrated on stopping a defense on the field rather making the highlight reel play. They play different positions but the correlation can be made between Maualuga and a guy like Levar Arrington in terms of what they bring to the table. They are sort of free lance guys that make the big hit but in the theory of a 50-70 play game, they are going to have a lot of busts that the overall defense is going to pay for.

Tombstone RJ
02-23-2009, 11:42 AM
Mediator pointed out that it's a collaborative effort and we don't know if someone was entirely a "Shanny pick" or "Bates pick" or "Goodman pick". For all we know Goodman (who I recall reading was responsible for scouting for many of the southern players) may have championed Moss and Crowder. Goodman may have thought Moss was going to be the absolute sh*t. We weren't in the room so we really don't know.



Some of these dramatic turnarounds are due in large part to major upgrades at QB:

Saints: Brooks to Brees
Dolphins: Lemon to Pennington
Falcons: Harrington/Leftwich/Redman to Ryan
Ravens: Boller to Flacco

We're not going to be getting that type of upgrade although I'm hopeful Jay will be more efficient and less turnover-prone under McDaniels. The reality is that we were an 8-8 team getting worse by the week with a Pro Bowl QB. You can look at it two ways:

1) Optimistic: QB is the hardest spot to find and we've already got that. We just need to get the defense a little better and fine tune the offense a bit and we'll be in great shape.

2) Pessimistic: Holy crap we had a Pro Bowl QB and still only finished 8-8 and got the tar kicked out of us late in the year! We have so much to fix!

That'd be my opinion.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 11:47 AM
The good news is we still have the bulk of our scouts in place. While the Goodmans made the call on many of the draft picks, they didn't get that information alone. The scouts and assistants in the front office were the ones breaking down film, assembling their workouts and putting things together in a package so the boys at the top could make the selections they needed to. If nothing else, the information we're providing Xanders and Mcdaniels will be accurate. On the defensive staff there's Nolan, whom I have total confidence in. He has experience as a coach and someone who works with a front office. He can identify and develop talent.

So it's not all bad. But there is more to be concerned about than excited about.

Don't forget, they did actually the get information alone on every player that came from the southeast region...

vancejohnson82
02-23-2009, 11:48 AM
There's a difference between the two. Polumalu is mature, has a family and probably runs a sub 4.4 on the football field which cover his mistakes IF he makes them.

Maualuga comes off as immature, comes from a rough background and has short area quickness, DEFINITELY not long speed like Polumalu has.

Once again and Med has touched on this as well... Rey is not the guy you want to build a defense around. He clearly lacks the leadership skills needed to lift up a defense to another level. He isn't concentrated on stopping a defense on the field rather making the highlight reel play. They play different positions but the correlation can be made between Maualuga and a guy like Levar Arrington in terms of what they bring to the table. They are sort of free lance guys that make the big hit but in the theory of a 50-70 play game, they are going to have a lot of busts that the overall defense is going to pay for.

i disagree with the Arrington comparison....Arrington was a guy that NEVER understood the concept of team defense and refused to learn how to cover....even in zone schemes...

Rey, from what I've seen, has a much better understanding of the game and has a much better head on his shoulders....i think you may be a little prejudiced against this kid

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 11:53 AM
Omgz So Much Psu Hate Lately

vancejohnson82
02-23-2009, 12:02 PM
Omgz So Much Psu Hate Lately

haha....well, if it makes u feel any better I just watched a whole "Linebacker U" montage on Youtube..

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 12:05 PM
haha....well, if it makes u feel any better I just watched a whole "Linebacker U" montage on Youtube..

No it doesn't make me feel better about your libel against Lavar! Take it back! Without him, the movie "The Waterboy" never even happens!

montrose
02-23-2009, 12:14 PM
No it doesn't make me feel better about your libel against Lavar! Take it back! Without him, the movie "The Waterboy" never even happens!

The year I went to Penn State camp was the summer was right after Courtney and LaVar had went 1-2 in the draft. Coach Johnson and Coach Anderson had us work on a drill they called the "LaVar Drill" where he had to dive over sled bag and meet a smaller sled bag that was thrown up at the highest point. It was cool as hell but I was never anywhere athletic enough to use it in a game!

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 12:21 PM
The year I went to Penn State camp was the summer was right after Courtney and LaVar had went 1-2 in the draft. Coach Johnson and Coach Anderson had us work on a drill they called the "LaVar Drill" where he had to dive over sled bag and meet a smaller sled bag that was thrown up at the highest point. It was cool as hell but I was never anywhere athletic enough to use it in a game!

In highschool, Lavar jumped OVER the offensive and defensive lines, landed on his feet RUNNING, and took the hand off from the QB before the RB even got there, and ran it for a TD... un****ing real...

Beantown Bronco
02-23-2009, 12:23 PM
In highschool, Lavar jumped OVER the offensive and defensive lines, landed on his feet RUNNING, and took the hand off from the QB before the RB even got there, and ran it for a TD... un****ing real...

Odd. I thought all PSU LBs could do that.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 12:25 PM
Odd. I thought all PSU LBs could do that.

Only on days that end in "Y"

:)

vancejohnson82
02-23-2009, 12:27 PM
Only on days that end in "Y"

:)

they looked pretty good in the Rose Bowl this year.....

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 12:31 PM
they looked pretty good in the Rose Bowl this year.....

A pox on you.

Inkana7
02-23-2009, 01:11 PM
This thread is infinitely stupid.

vancejohnson82
02-23-2009, 01:24 PM
This thread is infinitely stupid.

How is this thread any different than any of the others up there today??

"Man Arrested for Fight at Arby's"
"Pro Shanahan Propoganda Thread"
"Anti-Shanahan Thread"
"We Will Suck This Year"
"We WIll be Good this Year"
"Let's Pick up Generic Free Agent Name A"
"Let's Pick up Generic Free Agent Name B"
"I got a Turtle"
"Who Would Win in a Fight...a Hippo or Wolverine"
"Who Wants a Turtle"
"I'm Getting Married"
"I'm Having a Baby"
"Spider is in BLAH BLAH Town USA"

Singling this thread out as the stupid one of the bunch is really taking a leap of faith

~Crash~
02-23-2009, 02:31 PM
I hope that people don't lose their minds and ask for McDaniels head if the Broncos are a .500 team again next year. I agree... this "rebuilding" process may take some time.oh there are some dick heads that will start up if he goes 12-1 starting out the gate

baja
02-23-2009, 02:34 PM
How is this thread any different than any of the others up there today??

"Man Arrested for Fight at Arby's"
"Pro Shanahan Propoganda Thread"
"Anti-Shanahan Thread"
"We Will Suck This Year"
"We WIll be Good this Year"
"Let's Pick up Generic Free Agent Name A"
"Let's Pick up Generic Free Agent Name B"
"I got a Turtle"
"Who Would Win in a Fight...a Hippo or Wolverine"
"Who Wants a Turtle"
"I'm Getting Married"
"I'm Having a Baby"
"Spider is in BLAH BLAH Town USA"

Singling this thread out as the stupid one of the bunch is really taking a leap of faith
:rofl: :rofl:

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 03:05 PM
How is this thread any different than any of the others up there today??

"Man Arrested for Fight at Arby's"
"Pro Shanahan Propoganda Thread"
"Anti-Shanahan Thread"
"We Will Suck This Year"
"We WIll be Good this Year"
"Let's Pick up Generic Free Agent Name A"
"Let's Pick up Generic Free Agent Name B"
"I got a Turtle"
"Who Would Win in a Fight...a Hippo or Wolverine"
"Who Wants a Turtle"
"I'm Getting Married"
"I'm Having a Baby"
"Spider is in BLAH BLAH Town USA"

Singling this thread out as the stupid one of the bunch is really taking a leap of faith

:thanku:

Inkana7
02-23-2009, 03:08 PM
How is this thread any different than any of the others up there today??

"Man Arrested for Fight at Arby's"
"Pro Shanahan Propoganda Thread"
"Anti-Shanahan Thread"
"We Will Suck This Year"
"We WIll be Good this Year"
"Let's Pick up Generic Free Agent Name A"
"Let's Pick up Generic Free Agent Name B"
"I got a Turtle"
"Who Would Win in a Fight...a Hippo or Wolverine"
"Who Wants a Turtle"
"I'm Getting Married"
"I'm Having a Baby"
"Spider is in BLAH BLAH Town USA"

Singling this thread out as the stupid one of the bunch is really taking a leap of faith

Excellent point. I especially love the "I got a Turtle" thread.

Popps
02-23-2009, 03:29 PM
"Spider is in BLAH BLAH Town USA"

LOL

Sorry Spider.

rubaiyat
02-23-2009, 03:34 PM
I am. He wasnt brought in to continue the mediocrity that Shanahan left behind. He is already purging the defense of the subpar players. Although i dont expect a SB i do expect a 8-8 or better record considering what we were at least able to do last year with that train wreck. The guy was brought in to win and improve. If you cant improve on 8-8 with a 29th ranked defense than there's a problem. Again, im not expecting SB but the offense is virtually already there aside from a decent RB. And if they are going to address some of the defense in FA than there's no reason not to expect a better season than last.

Not exactly the same, but didn't Shanny go 8-8 after Wade went 8-8?

bpc
02-23-2009, 03:43 PM
i disagree with the Arrington comparison....Arrington was a guy that NEVER understood the concept of team defense and refused to learn how to cover....even in zone schemes...

Rey, from what I've seen, has a much better understanding of the game and has a much better head on his shoulders....i think you may be a little prejudiced against this kid

What makes you think you know so much about his coverage abilities? Would you believe me if I told you absolutely one of the worst at reading play action passes? Because he is. It's horrendous. The guy gets balls deep into the OL as soon as he sees any sort of playfake. Then his poor 40 time comes into play because he can't get back out into coverage HENCE why people like Mayock and others have said he might be a 2 down linebacker.

Go back to the film my friend. That's basically the exact same comparison you just made to Arrington. Maybe Maualuga has more of a willingness to work in a coverage scheme, he just is slow at reading his keys which costs him and his unit in the long run.

I'm not prejudiced, I just see failure transpiring with him in certain situations. He's too boom or bust for me. His actual draft position should be somewhere from 20-35. Definitely NO WHERE NEAR 12.

bpc
02-23-2009, 04:21 PM
BTW, i'm not an anti-USC guy either. I think Cushing and Mathews and actually Maiavia are all very good prospects. In fact I have a lot more respect for the first two now. I think they held up a majority of the responsibilities which allowed Maualuga to free lance and make all the highlight reel plays that he did. Carroll built that defense like a funnel which was perfect for Rey except he still never got over 90 tackles if i'm not mistaken. That's pretty average for a defense built to make you look like a stud.

vancejohnson82
02-23-2009, 06:07 PM
BTW, i'm not an anti-USC guy either. I think Cushing and Mathews and actually Maiavia are all very good prospects. In fact I have a lot more respect for the first two now. I think they held up a majority of the responsibilities which allowed Maualuga to free lance and make all the highlight reel plays that he did. Carroll built that defense like a funnel which was perfect for Rey except he still never got over 90 tackles if i'm not mistaken. That's pretty average for a defense built to make you look like a stud.

I respect your opinion on the subject, don't take my challenging of your opinion as an affront or an insult...

The guy it sounds like you are comparing him to is Vernon Gholston...a guy who played amongst other pro prospects on an NFL style defense and maybe foudn himself out of his league in the NFL...

Arrington was a 3 time pro bowler and a 3 time All Pro....so he wasnt ALL bad...and on a defense like ours a guy like that coiudl bring some excitement....

seriously, if you are giving me the option to watch another year of these guys giving 12 yards cushions, giving up 7 yard first down runs and just playing uninspired..or giving me some guys who are flying around the field, making the occassional mistake, I'll take the guys like Rey Rey who are at least bringing some action to the table

bpc
02-23-2009, 07:24 PM
I meant no disrespect either. I just see Maualuga having trouble in certain situations. He's gonna need to go to a great team defense to really get the full-capability out of him. He has a high ceiling. No doubt. Some of the plays he makes are spectacular. We could be seeing him in the pro bowl just like Levar. I think we all know what the pro bowl is though. It's a popularity contest, has been for years. Can we call agree that Deltha never should have been there mutliple times? ha ha.

Anyways, I don't think Maualuga will be productive in Denver. Do I think he'll be good in some places like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, San Diego or New England? Yes, they have a lot of other talent around and he becomes like the 4th, 5th or 6th best playmaker on a team of them. In Denver he becomes vaulted up as our #1 or 2 guy and people will have a terrible feeling when he doesn't produce or pick up the defense like we all hope.

Dedhed
02-23-2009, 07:42 PM
...after they win 2 super bowls in their first 4 years. And, we do need to remember Mike Shanahan going 8-8 and being probably the most inconsistent team in the league his first year.

Shanahan inherited a much better football team than what McDaniels was just handed.

Archer81
02-23-2009, 07:44 PM
Shanahan inherited a much better football team than what McDaniels was just handed.


Team averaged 8-8 with Philips...McD is getting a team that averaged 8-8 last 3 seasons too...


:Broncos:

vancejohnson82
02-23-2009, 07:55 PM
I meant no disrespect either. I just see Maualuga having trouble in certain situations. He's gonna need to go to a great team defense to really get the full-capability out of him. He has a high ceiling. No doubt. Some of the plays he makes are spectacular. We could be seeing him in the pro bowl just like Levar. I think we all know what the pro bowl is though. It's a popularity contest, has been for years. Can we call agree that Deltha never should have been there mutliple times? ha ha.

Anyways, I don't think Maualuga will be productive in Denver. Do I think he'll be good in some places like Baltimore, Pittsburgh, San Diego or New England? Yes, they have a lot of other talent around and he becomes like the 4th, 5th or 6th best playmaker on a team of them. In Denver he becomes vaulted up as our #1 or 2 guy and people will have a terrible feeling when he doesn't produce or pick up the defense like we all hope.

fair enough...the last thing I woudl want is to end up with a Vernon Gholston type of pickup this year...as an organization we really cant afford to miss big on our first rounder this year...

in my opinion, this pick in the first round this year will have a lot of say on how we fare in this next phase of the Cutler era...

bpc
02-23-2009, 08:23 PM
We agree on that. This pick will need to have a huge impact on our team, just like Cutler and Clady at 11 and 12 most recently.

Personally unless a HUGE value falls into our laps, we need to trade back.

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 08:25 PM
We agree on that. This pick will need to have a huge impact on our team, just like Cutler and Clady at 11 and 12 most recently.

Personally unless a HUGE value falls into our laps, we need to trade back.

when you are LOOKING to trade back, you dont gain the value back. a team will offer something small to move forward. you need leverage in order to get a good deal to trade back. if a huge value falls into our laps, thats exactly what wed get.

bpc
02-23-2009, 08:36 PM
I'm willing to wait. This weekend's activities pretty much solidified that we'll be getting some great value falling. I could see Andre Smith falling to us. That will put a bunch of teams in decision mode if they really need a OT. Philly comes to mind.

While I can see Oakland jumping on Andre Smith, especially after they just dumped Kwame Harris, he could slide. Weirder things have happened.

I think Crabtree could slide too if he has a bad workout or leaves public opinion inconclusive at his pro day.

400HZ
02-23-2009, 08:47 PM
I'm willing to wait. This weekend's activities pretty much solidified that we'll be getting some great value falling. I could see Andre Smith falling to us. That will put a bunch of teams in decision mode if they really need a OT. Philly comes to mind.

While I can see Oakland jumping on Andre Smith, especially after they just dumped Kwame Harris, he could slide. Weirder things have happened.

I think Crabtree could slide too if he has a bad workout or leaves public opinion inconclusive at his pro day.

Andre Smith is going to free fall. Getting torched against Florida, getting suspended, showing up fat and out of shape, and then mysteriously disappearing before it's his turn at the combine. Eben Britton is probably ahead of him on alot of NFL boards now. Oher is for sure.

bpc
02-23-2009, 09:39 PM
I'm still not buying that. Just earliest this week it was leaked that Detroit was thinking about taking him 1st overall. Time and time again people have bought into prospects, even if they're head cases. If Pacman Jones can still get drafted into the top 10 after all the crap he did, Andre Smith is not going to drop that far off.

I'm fully expecting Crazy Al to pick him at #7.

Mediator12
02-24-2009, 06:42 AM
I'm still not buying that. Just earliest this week it was leaked that Detroit was thinking about taking him 1st overall. Time and time again people have bought into prospects, even if they're head cases. If Pacman Jones can still get drafted into the top 10 after all the crap he did, Andre Smith is not going to drop that far off.

I'm fully expecting Crazy Al to pick him at #7.

The thing is one guy falling a few spots in the first rearranges the whole draft board just as much as a team reaching to trade back up for a position of need like HOU did with Brown last year. Strange things happen that no one can account for, but they do have to plan a strategy to deal with ahead of time.

I could see someone dropping to 12 who should not be there talent wise and DEN getting a real deal to move back. 12 is a very precarious position right now in the draft, I do not think there are 10 top prospects out there, but teams overdraft QB and OT enough to make one of the top 10 slide to 12 pretty routinely. It happened with Cutler, Clady, and others. I really think they will get a shot at a trade if they position themselves properly. The biggest problem is everyone knows they do not need an OT or QB at that position. They need to make people believe WAS is going to take an OT that drops, and that is almost a given. I could see WAS move up to get one of the top OT's in front of DEN as well anticipating a run on OT this year.

It really depends on the final assessments after the staffs and scouts finish cross checking after the pro days. However, WAS needs DL and OT badly. That is a good scenario for DEN ;D

400HZ
02-24-2009, 07:38 AM
The thing is one guy falling a few spots in the first rearranges the whole draft board just as much as a team reaching to trade back up for a position of need like HOU did with Brown last year. Strange things happen that no one can account for, but they do have to plan a strategy to deal with ahead of time.

I could see someone dropping to 12 who should not be there talent wise and DEN getting a real deal to move back. 12 is a very precarious position right now in the draft, I do not think there are 10 top prospects out there, but teams overdraft QB and OT enough to make one of the top 10 slide to 12 pretty routinely. It happened with Cutler, Clady, and others. I really think they will get a shot at a trade if they position themselves properly. The biggest problem is everyone knows they do not need an OT or QB at that position. They need to make people believe WAS is going to take an OT that drops, and that is almost a given. I could see WAS move up to get one of the top OT's in front of DEN as well anticipating a run on OT this year.

It really depends on the final assessments after the staffs and scouts finish cross checking after the pro days. However, WAS needs DL and OT badly. That is a good scenario for DEN ;D

There are so many good tackles this year though that it really doesn't shake things up that much. Andre Smith is down, Michael Oher is back up. Jason Smith and Eugene Monroe remain on the top. What is really does is open the door for somebody like Eben Britton or William Beaty to work their way into the first round (if they haven't already.)

I think with free agency being so prohibitively expensive and with so little talent available, teams are going to play it alot safer with their top draft picks. There are going to be fewer projects and fewer boom or bust types getting picked on the first day. That's my own personal theory. A first round bust is more of a setback than ever before since there are reduced means of compensating for it.