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Broncos_OTM
02-22-2009, 12:42 AM
INDIANAPOLIS — With free agency opening in four days, the Broncos have hired Keith Kidd to become their new pro scouting director.

Kidd was New England's assistant director of pro scouting from 2002-04, a period when Broncos coach Josh McDaniels was breaking in as a Patriots defensive coaching assistant.

Kidd is a scout through and through. He worked eight seasons (1991-98) with the Arizona Cardinals, then spent four seasons (1998-2001) as the Cleveland Browns' director of pro personnel. Since leaving the Pats, Kidd was a columnist for ESPN's Scout Inc.

The Broncos are not expected to add any more personnel to their scouting department until after the draft.

Keith Kidd
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Keith Kidd
Position(s) Assistant Director of Pro Scouting
College Eastern Kentucky
Team(s) as a coach/administrator
1991-1998

1999-2001

2002-2004 Arizona Cardinals
(Scout)
Cleveland Browns
(Director of Pro Personnel)
New England Patriots
(Assistant Director of Pro Scouting)
Keith Kidd is a columnist for ESPN.com and a National Football League scout for ESPN's scouting organization, Scouts, Inc. After graduating from Eastern Kentucky University, Kidd spent eight years in the scouting department of the Arizona Cardinals, before moving to the Cleveland Browns as their director of pro personnel from 1999 through 2001. He then spent three years with the New England Patriots as their assistant director of pro scouting prior to joining Scouts, Inc.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Kidd

montrose
02-22-2009, 12:49 AM
Seeing he was working for ESPN, I tried to find anything he wrote on the Broncos. and found some recent ESPN chats:

Tom (Cape Cod , Ma): Hey there, I was wondering what the broncos are going to do with their defense. I understand there switching ways and moving to 3-4, but are they going to go out and get players that will fit. I understand they have 30 mil under the cap. Thanks

Keith Kidd: Hey Tom, I look for the Broncos to take the best available player on the board, regardless of the position, at No. 12. However, defense, to me, is going to be a major area that this team has to address in the offseason.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24921
-----------------------
Timmy (Boston): Will Broncos keep Champ Bailey for long?

Keith Kidd: Great question. The question is where is his skill set today? In watching him, he still has a tremendous amount of talent. Also his medical, is he getting to the point in his career where he's starting to break down. He's still a very, very good player, however can he still play at the same level? He's had some injuries that concern me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24921
-----------------------
Ryan (America's Finest City): How many seasons does it take to completely overhaul and change the entire scheme of a defense like in Denver?

Keith Kidd: Great question. If you look at the Dolphins situation, they added 29 new players and they went from 1-15 to an AFC East division championship. It can be done. Teams are built on the defensive and offensive lines.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24679
-----------------------
Dave (Denver): What do you think of the Broncos hiring of McDaniels and his coaching hirings since?

SportsNation Keith Kidd: I love the move. I thought it was very aggressive for them to get one of the rising stars in the NFL. I can't wait to see this Denver offense under Jay Cutler in this system in the fall. But the Broncos need to address the defensive side, which they will.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24679

BroncoMan4ever
02-22-2009, 12:55 AM
since it looks as though he has been out of the game for about a few years now, i hope he has kept up in watching and evaluating players, or if he hasn't i hope he doesn't have much input in who we pick in this draft.

montrose
02-22-2009, 01:00 AM
since it looks as though he has been out of the game for about a few years now, i hope he has kept up in watching and evaluating players, or if he hasn't i hope he doesn't have much input in who we pick in this draft.

I'm sure he has been a bit while writing in the media. Then again, it was ESPN...

Broncos_OTM
02-22-2009, 01:03 AM
i liked montroses better. but i wont complain.:)

Broncos_OTM
02-22-2009, 01:04 AM
I'm sure he has been a bit while writing in the media. Then again, it was ESPN...

More specifically Scout.com

montrose
02-22-2009, 01:06 AM
i liked montroses better. but i wont complain.:)

?

Taco John
02-22-2009, 01:24 AM
He was working for ESPN?

I guess it beats PFT.

BroncoMan4ever
02-22-2009, 02:05 AM
He was working for ESPN?

I guess it beats PFT.

not by much.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:18 AM
Wonderful. Another Cheatriot. ::)

SonOfLe-loLang
02-22-2009, 02:23 AM
At least he understands football teams are built on the lines.

chickennob2
02-22-2009, 02:44 AM
Hiring a head of scouting halfway through the combine? Yikes

Broncos_OTM
02-22-2009, 03:17 AM
Hiring a head of scouting halfway through the combine? Yikes

Having no head of scouting for the combine... YIKESSS

thumpc
02-22-2009, 03:23 AM
Frank (South Dennis): Do you think Broncos Tony Scheffler will blossum into a Tony Gonzo type of TE. Scheffler has great hands and good speed, like Jason Witten. Will Tony Scheffler become a elite TE? Thank you

Keith Kidd: Yes, I do. I think you're going to be amazed at how this offense will be in Denver under Josh McDaniels and how he handles all the moving parts. Jay Cutler has a chance to be special before it's all said and done.

thumpc
02-22-2009, 03:27 AM
McD learns fast. Surround yourself with people that like you.

montrose
02-22-2009, 06:00 AM
For anyone who was wondering whose in charge, think this is a hint?

elsid13
02-22-2009, 06:31 AM
For anyone who was wondering whose in charge, think this is a hint?

I wonder what happens when Bowlen wakes up from his drunken stooper and realize that he NE west?

Broncos_OTM
02-22-2009, 07:27 AM
Well atleast it is modeled after a team that has had proven success. I mean if you want i am sure we could model ourselves after the Lions.

broncogary
02-22-2009, 07:48 AM
I wonder what happens when Bowlen wakes up from his drunken stooper and realize that he NE west?

Is a stooper like a reach-around?:P

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 08:08 AM
Keith "Joe" Kidd

23520

Combine Sheriff: Mr. Bowlen wants to see you over at the hotel.
Keith "Joe" Kidd: Who's Mr. Bowlen?
Combine Sheriff: He's the man that paid your fine to get you out of Scouts, Inc.
Keith "Joe" Kidd: Well, then he's alright with me.

cmhargrove
02-22-2009, 08:11 AM
Seeing he was working for ESPN, I tried to find anything he wrote on the Broncos. and found some recent ESPN chats:

Tom (Cape Cod , Ma): Hey there, I was wondering what the broncos are going to do with their defense. I understand there switching ways and moving to 3-4, but are they going to go out and get players that will fit. I understand they have 30 mil under the cap. Thanks

Keith Kidd: Hey Tom, I look for the Broncos to take the best available player on the board, regardless of the position, at No. 12. However, defense, to me, is going to be a major area that this team has to address in the offseason.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24921
-----------------------
Timmy (Boston): Will Broncos keep Champ Bailey for long?

Keith Kidd: Great question. The question is where is his skill set today? In watching him, he still has a tremendous amount of talent. Also his medical, is he getting to the point in his career where he's starting to break down. He's still a very, very good player, however can he still play at the same level? He's had some injuries that concern me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24921
-----------------------
Ryan (America's Finest City): How many seasons does it take to completely overhaul and change the entire scheme of a defense like in Denver?

Keith Kidd: Great question. If you look at the Dolphins situation, they added 29 new players and they went from 1-15 to an AFC East division championship. It can be done. Teams are built on the defensive and offensive lines.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24679
-----------------------
Dave (Denver): What do you think of the Broncos hiring of McDaniels and his coaching hirings since?

SportsNation Keith Kidd: I love the move. I thought it was very aggressive for them to get one of the rising stars in the NFL. I can't wait to see this Denver offense under Jay Cutler in this system in the fall. But the Broncos need to address the defensive side, which they will.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=24679

I like this guy already...

Pseudofool
02-22-2009, 08:17 AM
Part of scout's job is articulating his reports to the higher ups. That he's been writing for a couple years is a good sign if you ask me. He seems like a competent advocate of good idea.

cutthemdown
02-22-2009, 08:36 AM
I wonder what happens when Bowlen wakes up from his drunken stooper and realize that he NE west?

If he wakes up with a few superbowl trophies he will be fine. If not, well, not so much.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 09:41 AM
It's wonderful for him to talk about how great our offense is going to be... But nobody here has ever had any doubt about that. Cutler just broke a franchise record for yards thrown, and will probably claim many of the records that Elway left us with. Josh McDaniels isn't going to do anything special with this offense that we weren't already expecting out of Shanahan.

I'd rather hear this guy's thoughts about where our defense stands in relation to our switch to the 3-4, and the type of players he's looking to fill those roles.

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 09:58 AM
I wonder what happens when Bowlen wakes up from his drunken stooper and realize that he NE west?

Dude, relax.

Dove Valley is part of Douglas County, Colorado.

Douglas County was named after Stephen A. Douglas, born in Vermont.

Stephen A. Douglas was renowned for his inebriation.

So, what's the problem?

elsid13
02-22-2009, 10:01 AM
Is a stooper like a reach-around?:P

Yes but it involves a 15 inch aid plusing ding-dong and sand paper condom.

theAPAOps5
02-22-2009, 10:19 AM
Wonderful. Another Cheatriot. ::)

Might as well embrace it we will have a New England tie now. He was in college scouting though and not on the coaching staff. So he was on the road a lot and likely wasn't involved much in spy gate.

Popps
02-22-2009, 10:29 AM
I like this guy already...

Teams are built on the defensive and offensive lines.

:thumbsup:

theAPAOps5
02-22-2009, 10:32 AM
The more he speaks the more I love his philosophy. But that can get derailed with a bad draft and FA development as we all know oh so well. My McD like is increasing and am excited to see the draft and FA moves. This off season is exciting for the first time in a while. At least since Cutler but that didn't get exciting until draft day.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 10:36 AM
Anyone else worried. We were really getting into a great drafting groove last three years.

theAPAOps5
02-22-2009, 10:41 AM
Anyone else worried. We were really getting into a great drafting groove last three years.

Well great 3 out of 4 years and I am not worried as the groove was on offense which isn't the problem.

Pseudofool
02-22-2009, 10:42 AM
Anyone else worried. We were really getting into a great drafting groove last three years.

No. Our 2007 class looks like a lot of busts to me. We might be overvaluing last years draft considering that it was more often injury than talent that gave so many rookies playing time...

theAPAOps5
02-22-2009, 10:45 AM
No. Our 2007 class looks like a lot of busts to me. We might be overvaluing last years draft considering that it was more often injury than talent that gave so many rookies playing time...

Royal was a first round draft pick found in the second. Thats not overvalue. I also think that Larsen and Woodyard are going to be players. They just have to develop. So you have to give the Goodmans their due on those. But other than that their defense evaluation has been mediocre at best.

wolf754life
02-22-2009, 10:48 AM
Anyone else worried. We were really getting into a great drafting groove last three years.

Whaaaaaaaaaa, Whaaaaaaaaaa, I love the Goodmans and Shanahan, we can never evaluate talent again! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm scared, I don't think anyone else can identify talent!

you make me sick fanboy.

theAPAOps5
02-22-2009, 10:50 AM
Come on Wolf post something other than the exact same thing. Don't you have any ideas or thoughts other than what you have posted for 3 straight days.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 10:55 AM
Might as well embrace it we will have a New England tie now. He was in college scouting though and not on the coaching staff. So he was on the road a lot and likely wasn't involved much in spy gate.

I'm disgusted by the NE ties... I truly believe that team wouldn't have anywhere near as many wins if they had not been flagrantly and blatantly cheating. Cheating hurts the integrity of the sport and as much as I enjoy seeing the Broncos win, I cannot "embrace" the possibility of widespread suspicion that they're cheating to do it. I've been a football fan for a long time, but would be in danger of losing interest in the NFL entirely if "my" team turns into a bunch of cheaters like the Pats. Winning is everything in today's NFL... and in light of the "slap on the wrist" the league gave the Pats (pretty much trying to sweep the scandal under the carpet and divert attention elsewhere), it would be difficult to argue that the cheating wasn't well worth it to the entire Patriots organization.

Others may see it differently, but I want the Broncos to win because they're good; not because they're cheating.

Pseudofool
02-22-2009, 10:56 AM
Royal was a first round draft pick found in the second. Thats not overvalue. I also think that Larsen and Woodyard are going to be players. They just have to develop. So you have to give the Goodmans their due on those. But other than that their defense evaluation has been mediocre at best.Royal and Clady for were excellent picks, regardless of where. There's a lot of hype, here, about the latter half, so I had that in mind. I just don't know where players like Larsen and Woodyard fit in our new defense; nor how they would look in a defense that seemed to know what it was doing.

Pseudofool
02-22-2009, 11:00 AM
Josh McDaniels isn't going to do anything special with this offense that we weren't already expecting out of Shanahan.
I was excited about our offense, sure, but there were problems with us scoring, and McD's pushy-make-it-better attitude might give some of us hope about putting more points on the board.

UberBroncoMan
02-22-2009, 11:03 AM
I really don't disagree with anything this guy said... solid pickup for us.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 11:26 AM
Whaaaaaaaaaa, Whaaaaaaaaaa, I love the Goodmans and Shanahan, we can never evaluate talent again! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm scared, I don't think anyone else can identify talent!

you make me sick fanboy.


Do us all a favor and climb into one of these, then follow the instructions.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_j99VUrX25a4/SYplmR8SnUI/AAAAAAAAD68/W3Wf_VK6_-w/s320/barf_bag.jpg

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 11:37 AM
I'm disgusted by the NE ties... I truly believe that team wouldn't have anywhere near as many wins if they had not been flagrantly and blatantly cheating. Cheating hurts the integrity of the sport and as much as I enjoy seeing the Broncos win, I cannot "embrace" the possibility of widespread suspicion that they're cheating to do it. I've been a football fan for a long time, but would be in danger of losing interest in the NFL entirely if "my" team turns into a bunch of cheaters like the Pats. Winning is everything in today's NFL... and in light of the "slap on the wrist" the league gave the Pats (pretty much trying to sweep the scandal under the carpet and divert attention elsewhere), it would be difficult to argue that the cheating wasn't well worth it to the entire Patriots organization.

Others may see it differently, but I want the Broncos to win because they're good; not because they're cheating.

:blueflame

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 11:45 AM
I was excited about our offense, sure, but there were problems with us scoring, and McD's pushy-make-it-better attitude might give some of us hope about putting more points on the board.

More audibles, more options built in, more no-huddle hurry up... all these things I'm hopeful McD will bring with him. Jay is primed to move on to the next stage of development.

Hercules Rockefeller
02-22-2009, 11:47 AM
Do people even read the articles before they post?

Who the **** cares that they hired the head of their PRO player scouting department during the NFL Combine. Kidd isn't the one who would be scouting these guys anyway, he's the one who will be in charge of scouting free agents who fit the system.

Popps
02-22-2009, 12:06 PM
I've been a football fan for a long time, but would be in danger of losing interest in the NFL entirely if "my" team turns into a bunch of cheaters like the Pats..

Wow, what an odd way of positioning yourself against the new staff before they set foot in the door. I guess Taco's doing it, so you don't have any choice.
This feels very familiar.

The Denver Broncos were not only widely suspected of circumventing the salary cap, they were CAUGHT and penalized two separate times, both relating to the championship seasons. Penalties included losing draft picks.
Beyond that, Denver has been widely accused of cheating in various other ways ranging from using illegal supplements to illegal blocking to our linemen applying an illegal substance to their jerseys to make them slicker and harder to grasp. (Among others.)

Is it all true? Of course not. Is some of it? Maybe. Every organization has their secrets. Is that right? Of course not. We were caught cheating and we were punished. NE was caught cheating and they were punished.

I'd argue that finding ways to go around a salary cap for several years is more advantageous to a team than taping some team's practice.

So, maybe we should worry about cleaning up our own back yard before knocking on our neighbor's door, and certainly... the notion of assuming a new, young staff to be full of cheaters is just ridiculous and without any merit.

Popps
02-22-2009, 12:09 PM
Do people even read the articles before they post?

Who the **** cares that they hired the head of their PRO player scouting department during the NFL Combine. Kidd isn't the one who would be scouting these guys anyway, he's the one who will be in charge of scouting free agents who fit the system.

What you're seeing is positioning around here. A certain contingent wants this new staff to fail and we're seeing the early stages of them positioning themselves as such.

montrose
02-22-2009, 12:10 PM
Do people even read the articles before they post?

Who the **** cares that they hired the head of their PRO player scouting department during the NFL Combine. Kidd isn't the one who would be scouting these guys anyway, he's the one who will be in charge of scouting free agents who fit the system.

I heart you. And from the bit I've read of his from ESPN, he seems to be very competent. I like the hire.

UberBroncoMan
02-22-2009, 12:18 PM
I heart you. And from the bit I've read of his from ESPN, he seems to be very competent. I like the hire.

zowie!

ohiobronco2
02-22-2009, 12:24 PM
I heart you. And from the bit I've read of his from ESPN, he seems to be very competent. I like the hire.

http://www.impawards.com/2005/posters/brokeback_mountain_ver3.jpg

DBroncos4life
02-22-2009, 12:38 PM
I wonder what happens when Bowlen wakes up from his drunken stooper and realize that he NE west?

Yeah I know I sure would hate to be a fan of a team that is picked to play in the super bowl year in and year out like the Pats.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 12:42 PM
Wow, what an odd way of positioning yourself against the new staff before they set foot in the door. I guess Taco's doing it, so you don't have any choice.
This feels very familiar.

The Denver Broncos were not only widely suspected of circumventing the salary cap, they were CAUGHT and penalized two separate times, both relating to the championship seasons. Penalties included losing draft picks.
Beyond that, Denver has been widely accused of cheating in various other ways ranging from using illegal supplements to illegal blocking to our linemen applying an illegal substance to their jerseys to make them slicker and harder to grasp. (Among others.)

Is it all true? Of course not. Is some of it? Maybe. Every organization has their secrets. Is that right? Of course not. We were caught cheating and we were punished. NE was caught cheating and they were punished.

I'd argue that finding ways to go around a salary cap for several years is more advantageous to a team than taping some team's practice.

So, maybe we should worry about cleaning up our own back yard before knocking on our neighbor's door, and certainly... the notion of assuming a new, young staff to be full of cheaters is just ridiculous and without any merit.

Nothing the Broncos were ever accused of doing even comes close to approaching the magnitude of the Patriot cheating, Popps. My position is that I don't approve of cheating (because it compromises the integrity of the sport) and don't want my favorite team to do it. It's a difficult position to argue against, really.

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 12:43 PM
Anyone else worried. We were really getting into a great drafting groove last three years.

Overall, the last three years kind of stunk by Bronco standards. The last ten years stunk by Bronco standards. The Broncos should be right up there with Pittsburgh right now, IMO. I'm not happy with mediocrity. I guess I'm spoiled by all those AFC Titles won from 1977-1998.

Denver was in 1998 one of the most kickass franchises in the NFL. Since then we've been kind of an afterthought, a darkhorse candidate. Pisses me off. Bowlen finally woke up, I guess he got drunk and realized in a moment of drunken clarity, "Hey, Shanahan's an idiot!"

I have no argument with the housecleaning. Should have been done in 2001.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 12:46 PM
What you're seeing is positioning around here. A certain contingent wants this new staff to fail and we're seeing the early stages of them positioning themselves as such.

BS. No one here (barring the rival fans) wants the Broncos to fail.

elsid13
02-22-2009, 12:49 PM
BS. No one here wants the Broncos to fail.

Popps is attempting to revise history to make himself the hero of the epic battle he hopes happens in near future. One day he wants to sell the story for big money to a Hollywood studio.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 12:56 PM
What you're seeing is positioning around here. A certain contingent wants this new staff to fail and we're seeing the early stages of them positioning themselves as such.

I doubt ANYONE here really wants that. Me thinks you're reading into things too much here Popps. The only positioning I see is by people trying to pigeon hole people into positions just because we're all up in the air how and where things will play out.

Been a long time since we had this kind of shake up.

Paladin
02-22-2009, 12:57 PM
Well, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying.

It's a guy thing......

Actually, much ado about nothing right now.


Good hire. Need FAs.

BroncoBuff
02-22-2009, 01:05 PM
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4857/19414971.png
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2974074

Doesn't sound like he's Jim Goodman worthy. I wish Bowlen had waited 'til after the draft to can Goodman :(

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 01:07 PM
Yah, the Goodmans timing really caught me off guard out of EVERYTHING.

BroncoBuff
02-22-2009, 01:07 PM
BS. No one here (barring the rival fans) wants the Broncos to fail.

Co-sign on that. I dunno what you're thinking, Popps ... unless you're positioning yourself (as usual) anti-Taco and trying to paint his regret over the firing of Shanahan as some kind of anti-McDaniels sentiment.

cutthemdown
02-22-2009, 01:10 PM
I liked reading Scout.Com they had some good information. McDaniels needs scouting help hopefully this guy can bring that.

broncosteven
02-22-2009, 01:21 PM
It's wonderful for him to talk about how great our offense is going to be... But nobody here has ever had any doubt about that. Cutler just broke a franchise record for yards thrown, and will probably claim many of the records that Elway left us with. Josh McDaniels isn't going to do anything special with this offense that we weren't already expecting out of Shanahan.

I'd rather hear this guy's thoughts about where our defense stands in relation to our switch to the 3-4, and the type of players he's looking to fill those roles.

Rejoice, they are making changes at CB. Same thing Shanny did, I would rather see them bringing in DLine and LB's but I just posted all that in another thread.

CB I can't believe they are trying to address CB after cutting 2/3's of the D.

Popps
02-22-2009, 01:24 PM
Co-sign on that. I dunno what you're thinking, Popps ... unless you're positioning yourself (as usual) anti-Taco and trying to paint his regret over the firing of Shanahan as some kind of anti-McDaniels sentiment.

Look, my point is... you've got people blasting this staff before their ****ing foot is in the door. If it's not one complaint, it's another... and now seeds are being sewn to call our new coach a CHEATER?

As for Taco and I... check out our stances, politically. We're almost in lock-step with each other. So, this has nothing to do with him or wanting to disagree.

This is the same nonsense we saw when Plummer came to town... when Jay Cutler came to town and now McDaniels.

People decided people are failures before they've ever even done anything in Denver.

Now McD is a cheater? Give me a ****ing break. You can placate that nonsense if you want, but I never have and never will.

I'm excited about the new staff, optimistic and while I appreciated the old regime for what they did, I don't need to invent story-lines to try to bash the new crew before they've held so much as a single practice.

Popps
02-22-2009, 01:25 PM
Rejoice, they are making changes at CB. Same thing Shanny did, I would rather see them bringing in DLine and LB's but I just posted all that in another thread.

CB I can't believe they are trying to address CB after cutting 2/3's of the D.

Dude, did you read the ****ing article? The guy flat-out said you build a team through the lines.

It's also been widely speculated that we're interested in a number of linebackers and linemen.

Free agency hasn't even started yet.

Again, can we let the guy unpack his suitcase before we deem him a failure?

SoCalBronco
02-22-2009, 01:29 PM
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4857/19414971.png
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2974074

Doesn't sound like he's Jim Goodman worthy. I wish Bowlen had waited 'til after the draft to can Goodman :(

I am concerned about Kidd in the respect that he's been out of the league for 5 years now. He hasn't been hired by ANYONE for a long time. That's disturbing. I'm not a huge fan of hiring a columnist for ESPN as Pro Scouting Director. Hell, he isn't even the top scout at ESPN (McShay). The fact that he also presided over scouting for the Browns and Cardinals during their rather pathetic periods does not help Kidd's case either.

This looks an awful lot like sheer nepotism. He (McD) knew the guy at NE and boom....he's now the man. He hires coaches who share his same agent. Bowlen's words about bifurcating the office of the GM from the office of the HC ring hollow. Xanders is basically purely a cap guy. His former boss has criticized him on personnel grounds. This is not the type of hire that inspires confidence on the personnel side of things. We'll see who is hired on the College Scouting side, but I'm pretty underwhelmed.

It has gotten to the point where I don't trust Bowlen's judgement on anything. He contradicts himself. He appears to be doing things by the seat of his pants. First, Goodman isn't going anywhere and he's in charge and is praised for his personnel achievements and then boom, he's gone in favor of some numbers cruncher. Then we get some douche columnist HC's friend as Pro Scouting Director. It's clear that McDaniels is attempting to consolidate all the power into his hands.

This new administration has alot to prove. I'm very concerned about Bowlen as well. It's not a joke, anymore. I think he really does have an alcohol problem. I think its a real issue. It's not just something for laughs. I don't think he's firmly in command. I don't think he's on the ball. I don't trust him.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 01:32 PM
I've heard that McD beats up old ladies and steals kids candy. Doesn't bode well...

Popps
02-22-2009, 01:34 PM
This new administration has alot to prove. I'm very concerned about Bowlen as well. It's not a joke, anymore. I think he really does have an alcohol problem. I think its a real issue. It's not just something for laughs. I don't think he's firmly in command..

Lay out one piece of evidence to support that he's an alcoholic.

Even if he is (which I imagine many businessmen are) ... lay out the piece of evidence that he's got "no ccommand" of the team.

Looks to me like he's got TOTAL command.

Then, after you prove you have intimate details of his health and medical status, please proceed to proving that he was NOT drinking during our Superbowl championship period, as clearly... he must have just recently become an alcoholic.

Look forward to reading your proof.

BroncoBuff
02-22-2009, 01:35 PM
Now McD is a cheater? Give me a ****ing break. You can placate that nonsense if you want, but I never have and never will.Cheating? I must have missed that ... bring me up to speed please, nutshell at least ???

Popps
02-22-2009, 01:36 PM
I've heard that McD beats up old ladies and steals kids candy. Doesn't bode well...

The funny thing about your joke is, it's usually used for Brandon Marshall.

The difference is, Brandon actually DOES have some issues in his past, whereas people are just pulling things directly out of their asses about McDaniel.

He's the hottest coaching prospect in pro football and people here find a way to cry about bringing him in before the guy has sat his ass in his desk chair.

Popps
02-22-2009, 01:37 PM
Cheating? I must have missed that ... bring me up to speed please, nutshell at least ???

Oh yea.

Blueflame has (very sincere, I'm sure) concerns about us bringing in a staff full of cheaters.

You know, because the Broncos have such a spotless record in that regard, she's worried about our rep being tainted.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 01:45 PM
Look, my point is... you've got people blasting this staff before their ****ing foot is in the door. If it's not one complaint, it's another... and now seeds are being sewn to call our new coach a CHEATER?

As for Taco and I... check out our stances, politically. We're almost in lock-step with each other. So, this has nothing to do with him or wanting to disagree.

This is the same nonsense we saw when Plummer came to town... when Jay Cutler came to town and now McDaniels.

People decided people are failures before they've ever even done anything in Denver.

Now McD is a cheater? Give me a ****ing break. You can placate that nonsense if you want, but I never have and never will.

I'm excited about the new staff, optimistic and while I appreciated the old regime for what they did, I don't need to invent story-lines to try to bash the new crew before they've held so much as a single practice.

It is not my fault that McDaniels built his HC credibility while he was with a franchise that cheated in order to succeed. There's no spinning the fact that he was employed by the Patriots during the same timeframe that they were cheating (by definition, I believe that would technically make him a cheater...). While we do not yet know if he will bring with him the mindset that the end justifies the means like his old boss had... it's not unreasonable to express a hope that unlike Belicheat, he will follow league rules.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 01:48 PM
Oh yea.

Blueflame has (very sincere, I'm sure) concerns about us bringing in a staff full of cheaters.

You know, because the Broncos have such a spotless record in that regard, she's worried about our rep being tainted.

I don't like the Pats.... or their cheating. I do not want the Broncos to be like them (turn into New England West). Cheating is bad for the sport.

SoCalBronco
02-22-2009, 01:50 PM
Lay out one piece of evidence to support that he's an alcoholic.

Even if he is (which I imagine many businessmen are) ... lay out the piece of evidence that he's got "no ccommand" of the team.

Looks to me like he's got TOTAL command.

Then, after you prove you have intimate details of his health and medical status, please proceed to proving that he was NOT drinking during our Superbowl championship period, as clearly... he must have just recently become an alcoholic.

Look forward to reading your proof.

How do you explain his contradictory stances? He made it clear that he was happy with Goodman and what Goodman did for the drafts. He said he valued his input very much and would be relying on him a great deal (along with other trusted old hands, Ellis etc) and he took Goodman to interview the various HC prospects. It was made clear that Goodman and his crew would remain in charge in their area because they had done well. Even McD conceded this.

Then, he allows some kind of power play to happen and lets some numbers cruncher with scant personnel experience to take over, when it was clear that this wouldn't be the case. Why did he do an about face? What happened to the guy he said he valued and trusted so much?

He says he wants a power structure with a clear bifurcation of authority,he wants "change", but he allows his HC to hire men who coincidentally share the same agent and the Pro Scouting Director just happens to be a guy the HC knew in NE. Is there really a bifurcation of authority or is everything being consolidated in McD's hands?

You are asking me for proof and my response to you is simply Res Ipsa Loquitor.

BroncoBuff
02-22-2009, 01:51 PM
Ooooh, Belichick-gate.

Well, Josh must have been in the loop on that ... it was opponent's defensive signals being stolen, and Josh was calling plays, or close to it at the time. On the other hand, I'd hate to think he's tainted on that.

TheDave
02-22-2009, 01:52 PM
I don't like the Pats.... or their cheating. I do not want the Broncos to be like them (turn into New England West). Cheating is bad for the sport.

So tell me this... did you think our Offensive line "accidentally" bathed in silicone prior to our 97 playoff game in KC?

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 01:58 PM
Did anyone else know that McD owned a biz on the side?

http://www.spycamera.org/spy_cameras/lighter_camera.htm

I didn't know he smoked either.... :hitself:

http://www.spycamera.org/images/lighter_dvr.jpg

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:00 PM
It is not my fault that McDaniels built his HC credibility while he was with a franchise that cheated in order to succeed.

No, it's only your fault for supporting Shanahan while he did exactly the same.. or worse. So, your hypocrisy is the only thing you are at fault for.

There's no spinning the fact that he was employed by the Patriots during the same timeframe that they were cheating (by definition, I believe that would technically make him a cheater...).

That also makes a good portion of our organization cheaters, as well... including the owner.

While we do not yet know if he will bring with him.

Bring WHAT with him? His boss used a camera on a practice field. Bad, yes. (Also said to be fairly common... he just got caught.)

You make it sound as if there was something in the water in NE and McD became infected.

Iit's not unreasonable to express a hope that unlike Belicheat, he will follow league rules.

Again, it's only unreasonable because you didn't hold our prior cheating staff to the same standards. I never heard you decry our SB titles.

If your little act here was legit, you'd have no choice but to denounce Shanahan and the Broncos as cheaters and refuse to accept our championships. We were PROVEN to have cheated TWICE with major cap infractions, and were accused of cheating in more other ways than one could count.

Make up your mind. If you want to make believe about being offended by McD being on the same staff as Bill B., then go all the way with it.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:01 PM
So tell me this... did you think our Offensive line "accidentally" bathed in silicone prior to our 97 playoff game in KC?

I didn't approve of that either. However, that did not affect the outcome of the game, as it was removed early on.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:03 PM
Ooooh, Belichick-gate.

Well, Josh must have been in the loop on that ... it was opponent's defensive signals being stolen, and Josh was calling plays, or close to it at the time. On the other hand, I'd hate to think he's tainted on that.

Again, if he is he is.

Shanahan was tainted from top to bottom. He was the epitome of a guy who would do anything to win, including cheating.

It's documented.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:05 PM
I didn't approve of that either. However, that did not affect the outcome of the game, as it was removed early on.

Bull**** it was removed early on.

KC's D-line complained about this FOREVER.

Just like the chop-blocks... just like the salary cap infringements (which proved to be true)... and on and on.

Now you've got people claiming much of our team could have been on illegal supplements.

Go on, tell me how squeaky-clean we are and how much trouble sleeping you're having about McDaniels and his scandalous ways.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:06 PM
In 1998, the NFL fined Broncos coach Mike Shanahan $15,000 for failing to list quarterback John Elway on the Denver injury report despite the fact that Elway had ribs so sore they eventually prevented him from starting that week's game (Shanahan responded by listing 22 players on the next week's report, 20 of whom were labeled "probable").


oops!

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:09 PM
I didn't approve of that either. However, that did not affect the outcome of the game, as it was removed early on.



Look, the Pats got caught video taping signals, turned over the evidence, and then proceeded to score more points than any team in history. The next year McKid did one hell of a job with Cassel and no "video help"...

My point is everyone pushes the rules...I don't think this group of coaches is any more inclined to cheating than any other.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:09 PM
No, it's only your fault for supporting Shanahan while he did exactly the same.. or worse. So, your hypocrisy is the only thing you are at fault for.

Show me where Shanahan secretly taped opposing teams.

That also makes a good portion of our organization cheaters, as well... including the owner.

Nothing even close to what the Pats did.

Bring WHAT with him? His boss used a camera on a practice field. Bad, yes. (Also said to be fairly common... he just got caught.)

No, it wasn't a common practice and it was against league rules. And how long had he done it before it could be proven that he was?

You make it sound as if there was something in the water in NE and McD became infected.

I hope he wasn't.

Again, it's only unreasonable because you didn't hold our prior cheating staff to the same standards. I never heard you decry our SB titles.

If your little act here was legit, you'd have no choice but to denounce Shanahan and the Broncos as cheaters and refuse to accept our championships. We were PROVEN to have cheated TWICE with major cap infractions, and were accused of cheating in more other ways than one could count.

Make up your mind. If you want to make believe about being offended by McD being on the same staff as Bill B., then go all the way with it.

Dunno what your agenda is in trying to suggest that the two are comparable... they're not. Not even close.

SoCalBronco
02-22-2009, 02:09 PM
Again, if he is he is.

Shanahan was tainted from top to bottom. He was the epitome of a guy who would do anything to win, including cheating.

It's documented.

Good.

I have no problem with this. And I have no problem with McDaniels' connection to New England's nefarious ways. That doesn't bother me. It's irrelevant. All of my objections to McDaniels have been on other grounds. This is a cutthroat 2 billion dollar a year business, it isn't figure skating. Everyone works as hard as they can to gain a competitive advantage. I'm not going to fault Shanahan or McDaniels or Belichick for leaving no stone unturned in their preparation.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 02:11 PM
We were PROVEN to have cheated TWICE with major cap infractions, and were accused of cheating in more other ways than one could count.


I call B.S.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:11 PM
Look, the Pats got caught video taping signals, turned over the evidence, and then proceeded to score more points than any team in history. The next year McKid did one hell of a job with Cassel and no "video help"...

My point is everyone pushes the rules...I don't think this group of coaches is any more inclined to cheating than any other.

And we know they quit cheating because... Belicheat promised that they did? :spit: (I fully believe they're still cheating because there were essentially no repercussions for it).

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:12 PM
Good.

I have no problem with this. And I have no problem with McDaniels' connection to New England's nefarious ways. That doesn't bother me. It's irrelevant. All of my objections to McDaniels have been on other grounds. This is a cutthroat 2 billion dollar a year business, it isn't figure skating. Everyone works as hard as they can to gain a competitive advantage. I'm not going to fault Shanahan or McDaniels or Belichick for leaving no stone unturned in their preparation.

Thank God...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2007/11/14/2004013867.jpg

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:13 PM
In 1998, the NFL fined Broncos coach Mike Shanahan $15,000 for failing to list quarterback John Elway on the Denver injury report despite the fact that Elway had ribs so sore they eventually prevented him from starting that week's game (Shanahan responded by listing 22 players on the next week's report, 20 of whom were labeled "probable").


oops!

So? This is equal to illegally videotaping opponents' signals? (NOT)

SoCalBronco
02-22-2009, 02:13 PM
Thank God...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2007/11/14/2004013867.jpg

Ok...maybe figure skating was a bad choice. :)

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:13 PM
Show me where Shanahan secretly taped opposing teams.
.

I didn't say he did. One article came out that said he was and was recanted.
There's only rumor...and rumor is that many, many coaches have and DO currently use tape that's not permissible.


Dunno what your agenda is in trying to suggest that the two are comparable... they're not. Not even close.

Correct. Salary cap infringements are considerably worse.

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:14 PM
And we know they quit cheating because... Belicheat promised that they did? :spit: (I fully believe they're still cheating because there were essentially no repercussions for it).

Considering they no longer use signals to call defensive plays... video taping the sidelines doesn't do much anymore.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 02:15 PM
So? This is equal to illegally videotaping opponents' signals? (NOT)

apparently.... off on some distant planet far.....far....away.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:16 PM
So? This is equal to illegally videotaping opponents' signals? (NOT)

OOHHHHHH.... so you're cool with SOME cheating?

It's cool if we did a whole bunch of cheating ranging from...

-Major salary cap violations (twice) that ended up in just as severe penalty as New England's
-Illegal substances on jerseys
-Illegal use of the injury report
-Countless other allegations of cheating from around the league

You're TOTALLY cool with those things, but a camera is where you draw the line, huh?

ROFL!

Embarrassing. Just quit while you're way behind.

Ever heard the joke that ends with: "Hey everyone, look what I almost stepped in!"

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 02:16 PM
What you're seeing is positioning around here. A certain contingent wants this new staff to fail and we're seeing the early stages of them positioning themselves as such.

True.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:17 PM
apparently.... off on some distant planet far.....far....away.

Let's see, gaining a competitive advantage by manipulating a cap that other team's were adhering to, thus allowing more talented to be added at a lower paper-cost?

Yea, I'd say the ability to sign more talented free agents by ****ing with the rules helps just a wee-bit.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:17 PM
I call B.S.

Look it up, homie.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:17 PM
I didn't say he did. One article came out that said he was and was recanted.
There's only rumor...and rumor is that many, many coaches have and DO currently use tape that's not permissible.



Correct. Salary cap infringements are considerably worse.

So you have no proof of the claims you made. Hilarious!

Then why is it that the Pats lost a first rounder as discipline and we only lost a 3rd-rounder?

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:19 PM
Considering they no longer use signals to call defensive plays... video taping the sidelines doesn't do much anymore.

Which only means Belicheat will find other ways of cheating.

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:20 PM
Which only means Belicheat will find other ways of cheating.

OK, quick question... what does that have to do with McDaniels?

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:22 PM
OOHHHHHH.... so you're cool with SOME cheating?

It's cool if we did a whole bunch of cheating ranging from...

-Major salary cap violations (twice) that ended up in just as severe penalty as New England's
-Illegal substances on jerseys
-Illegal use of the injury report
-Countless other allegations of cheating from around the league

You're TOTALLY cool with those things, but a camera is where you draw the line, huh?

ROFL!

Embarrassing. Just quit while you're way behind.

Ever heard the joke that ends with: "Hey everyone, look what I almost stepped in!"

What part of "cheating is bad for the integrity of the sport" did you not get? I don't think that leaves any impression whatsoever that I'm "TOTALLY cool with those things"... you're just throwing stuff at the wall to see if something will stick. Here's your clue: It ain't me who's arguing that cheating is OK.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:23 PM
OK, quick question... what does that have to do with McDaniels?

Who did McDaniels work for? Oh, yeah. Belicheat.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:25 PM
OK, quick question... what does that have to do with McDaniels?

See, it's a bit like zombies. You can't let them get you or you become one, and then have no choice but to feed on non-zombie (non-cheater) types.

McD was in NE, hence... he must have been zombified.

BroncoBuff
02-22-2009, 02:26 PM
Correct. Salary cap infringements are considerably worse.
Not back then ... those violations, especially the Derek Loville back-loaded pay off the cap, were really just accounting violations, not on-field competitive violations like stealing defensive alignments.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:27 PM
See, it's a bit like zombies. You can't let them get you or you become one, and then have no choice but to feed on non-zombie (non-cheater) types.

McD was in NE, hence... he must have been zombified.

If the teacher/mentor is a cheater, then it's reasonable to wonder if the student learned how to cheat and get away with it.

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 02:27 PM
Nothing the Broncos were ever accused of doing even comes close to approaching the magnitude of the Patriot cheating, Popps. My position is that I don't approve of cheating (because it compromises the integrity of the sport) and don't want my favorite team to do it. It's a difficult position to argue against, really.

No argument from me. They got fined to the maximum, but people have forgot about the magnitude of their cheating. If you decide to keep reminding all of us about that year after year, that's fine with me. If you don't, I will. They cheated, and were unrepentant.

But, Kraft learned from the best, Vladimir Putin. Hilarious!

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2005/06/29/for_putin_its_a_gem_of_a_cultural_exchange/

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:28 PM
Who did McDaniels work for? Oh, yeah. Belicheat.

Come on... Really?

Lets give the kid a chance before we label him a cheater... especially when the only evidence we have is that his boss did it a few years ago.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:28 PM
What part of "cheating is bad for the integrity of the sport" did you not get? I don't think that leaves any impression whatsoever that I'm "TOTALLY cool with those things"... you're just throwing stuff at the wall to see if something will stick. Here's your clue: It ain't me who's arguing that cheating is OK.

Oh, I'm opposed to cheating. I'm just also opposed to blatant, embarrassing hypocrisy.

When you want to come clean, we're all here to listen. Go ahead... tell us that the Broncos were false-champions.

By your own words of concern, you either hate the Broncos championship team (and Shanahan and everyone who played and coached with him) ... or you like cheaters.

Belichik and Shanahan were BOTH caught and punished for major cheating infractions. The Broncos over the years have been caught and accused for as much cheating as New England.

So, please... denounce our championship team. I mean, you MUST hate all things Broncos from about 1994 on... right?

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:29 PM
Come on... Really?

Lets give the kid a chance before we label him a cheater... especially when the only evidence we have is that his boss did it a few years ago.

It's a total embarrassment. This is what I mean when I say you've got people playing make believe around here in order to position themselves against the new staff for no reason.

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:30 PM
See, it's a bit like zombies. You can't let them get you or you become one, and then have no choice but to feed on non-zombie (non-cheater) types.

McD was in NE, hence... he must have been zombified.

I'm starting to agree with you comment about people positioning themselves...

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 02:32 PM
Look it up, homie.

I don't need to. I've gone over it before. not worth it.

cap was new, teams were doing all sorts of things, didn't change outcome, commish went heavy handed, at the time teams like the Vikes were talking bankruptcy, blah....blah.... blah....

of course this equals a coach taping walkthroughs before the Super Bowl.

ok, whatever....

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:34 PM
If the teacher/mentor is a cheater, then it's reasonable to wonder if the student learned how to cheat and get away with it.

That's called guilt by association, and it's bull****.

Did Romeo Crennel cheat? Maybe he wasn't a great head coach. (Though he did improve his team.)

Wow, I wonder how Romeo was able to escape the heavy spell of Bill Belichick's cheating powers!

Hilarious!

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 02:35 PM
Popps is attempting to revise history to make himself the hero of the epic battle he hopes happens in near future. One day he wants to sell the story for big money to a Hollywood studio.

Yah, you, SoCal and Jason can fight it out for portraying Shanahan. So what's your sympathetic portrayal? Misunderstood genius?

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:36 PM
Come on... Really?

Lets give the kid a chance before we label him a cheater... especially when the only evidence we have is that his boss did it a few years ago.

True or false? He was a part of the Patriots' cheating.

SoCalBronco
02-22-2009, 02:36 PM
Popps, I don't think anyone here wants the new regime to fail, because that means that the team would also fail. I don't like the new regime. I find alot of fault with them, as do many people. I also don't trust and/or have any confidence in our owner, but that doesn't mean we are all secretly praying for them to fail.

It's clear that Bowlen is going to give these kids alot of leeway, i.e. 3-4 years worth of leeway. On the merits, they probably deserve at least one year's worth of a mulligan due to the state of the defense and also because of the 2009 schedule. Given that they'll be here for awhile no matter what, no one is hoping that they fail because that would mean that all of us would have to endure 3-4 years worth of sub .500 football. We want them to succeed. All of us do. That doesn't mean we like them, or that we think that they should be in the positon of power that they are, or even that we agree with the decisions they have made so far. But we do want them to succeed.

That doesn't mean they don't have alot to prove on a variety of fronts.

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:36 PM
It's a total embarrassment. This is what I mean when I say you've got people playing make believe around here in order to position themselves against the new staff for no reason.

This cheating by association thing is a ridiculous argument...

Hell I was as big a shanahan supporter as anyone here, but he is gone and it's time to move on. Don't get me wrong there are legitimate concerns being voiced on this thread... but the cheating concern is a stretch at the very least

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:37 PM
Oh, I'm opposed to cheating. I'm just also opposed to blatant, embarrassing hypocrisy.

When you want to come clean, we're all here to listen. Go ahead... tell us that the Broncos were false-champions.

By your own words of concern, you either hate the Broncos championship team (and Shanahan and everyone who played and coached with him) ... or you like cheaters.

Belichik and Shanahan were BOTH caught and punished for major cheating infractions. The Broncos over the years have been caught and accused for as much cheating as New England.

So, please... denounce our championship team. I mean, you MUST hate all things Broncos from about 1994 on... right?

You're doing enough denouncing for the both of us, Popps.

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:37 PM
True or false? He was a part of the Patriots' cheating.

I don't know... and neither do you.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 02:37 PM
Not back then ... those violations, especially the Derek Loville back-loaded pay off the cap, were really just accounting violations, not on-field competitive violations like stealing defensive alignments.

don't waste your breath. This will not be understood

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:38 PM
Not back then ... those violations, especially the Derek Loville back-loaded pay off the cap, were really just accounting violations, not on-field competitive violations like stealing defensive alignments.

The NFL has fined the Broncos $950,000 and stripped the team of a third-round draft pick in next year’s draft “for manipulating financial issues involving player salaries,” according to Bob Williamson of the DENVER POST. The NFL following a 20-month investigation said that the Broncos “circumvented the salary cap in part to help pay costs connected with the building of Invesco Field at Mile High.” NFL Exec VP/Labor Relations Harold Henderson: “The investigation resulted in the discovery of undisclosed agreements between the club and Broncos players during the same period (1996-98) pursuant to which various players agreed to defer certain compensation in exchange for a commitment to pay interest on the deferred amounts.” The Broncos were fined and stripped of a draft-pick in December R01 for violating guidelines under the NFL’s deferred compensation fund.


Really? Sure seems to me like creating an atmosphere where players can be paid under the table creates a bit of an advantage for a team. I wonder how many players they did this with and DIDN'T get caught?

It's a salary cap. You either respect it or you're a cheater.

We cheated.... and got caught twice.... who knows how many other infractions there were.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:38 PM
That's called guilt by association, and it's bull****.

Did Romeo Crennel cheat? Maybe he wasn't a great head coach. (Though he did improve his team.)

Wow, I wonder how Romeo was able to escape the heavy spell of Bill Belichick's cheating powers!

Hilarious!

So you're saying he was their OC and had nothing whatsoever to do with the cheating?

Hilarious! indeed...

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:40 PM
You're doing enough denouncing for the both of us, Popps.

Oh, I love the team. No one is prouder of this team than I am.

Sure, I wish they would have played by the rules, but I don't think that takes away what we accomplished, just like I believe NE is a top notch franchise, despite being caught with a camcorder in a practice field.

That's called being consistent.

What you're doing is called stinky bull****.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:41 PM
I don't know... and neither do you.

You really believe a member of the coaching staff was not a part of the cheating? Well, I suppose he could have been totally out of the loop, but if he was, one wonders just what he did to earn his paycheck.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:42 PM
So you're saying he was their OC and had nothing whatsoever to do with the cheating?

Hilarious! indeed...

Sorry, Blue... I must have missed Romeo's camera incident in Cleveland.

Since it's so funny, go ahead and post the link for me. I'll wait here.

Post me the link where Romeo C. was caught as a cheater as the Browns head coach. By your logic, he's guilty by association. So, he MUST have cheated in Cleveland.

Can't wait to read the article...

Taco John
02-22-2009, 02:42 PM
In 1998, the NFL fined Broncos coach Mike Shanahan $15,000 for failing to list quarterback John Elway on the Denver injury report despite the fact that Elway had ribs so sore they eventually prevented him from starting that week's game (Shanahan responded by listing 22 players on the next week's report, 20 of whom were labeled "probable").


oops!

You call that cheating?

That's moronic.

That's protecting your quarterback. We shouldn't have to advertise to the opponent that it's free rib shot on Elway week.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:43 PM
You really believe a member of the coaching staff was not a part of the cheating? Well, I suppose he could have been totally out of the loop, but if he was, one wonders just what he did to earn his paycheck.

Yea, you SUPPOSE is the problem. You're pulling this out of your ass and have no idea what you're talking about.

You're convicting McDaniels before he's stepped foot in Denver, and I just gave you example of Romeo Crennel leading a perfectly clean coaching campaign in Cleveland.

So, again... you're just full of ****.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 02:43 PM
True or false? He was a part of the Patriots' cheating.

How can you possibly know?

If someone working for a company steals, is ever employee tainted?? Of course not.

You seem to be trying to find reasons not to like McDaniel, give him a chance and stop applying 'guilt by association'. It's dead wrong!

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:46 PM
Oh, I love the team. No one is prouder of this team than I am.

Sure, I wish they would have played by the rules, but I don't think that takes away what we accomplished, just like I believe NE is a top notch franchise, despite being caught with a camcorder in a practice field.

That's called being consistent.

What you're doing is called stinky bull****.

Uh-huh. Sure.

Belicheat was a loser as a coach until he started cheating, y'know. Oh, I'm sorry.... "being caught with a camcorder on a practice field". And I'm sure it was the only time the innocent Belichick ever did that.

And I still... consistently... think cheating is detrimental to the integrity of the sport regardless of who does it. You can call that "stinky bull***" if you like, but it will remain the truth.

TheReverend
02-22-2009, 02:46 PM
WTF happened in this thread?!?!

Jesus...

skpac1001
02-22-2009, 02:47 PM
If your afraid of a "cheater" taint, its too late. I remember when the taping thing went down, the Bronco salary cap violations were brought up in every conversation about it. You may not think it qualifies as cheating, but the rest of the league did.

broncolife
02-22-2009, 02:48 PM
The NFL has fined the Broncos $950,000 and stripped the team of a third-round draft pick in next year’s draft “for manipulating financial issues involving player salaries,” according to Bob Williamson of the DENVER POST. The NFL following a 20-month investigation said that the Broncos “circumvented the salary cap in part to help pay costs connected with the building of Invesco Field at Mile High.” NFL Exec VP/Labor Relations Harold Henderson: “The investigation resulted in the discovery of undisclosed agreements between the club and Broncos players during the same period (1996-98) pursuant to which various players agreed to defer certain compensation in exchange for a commitment to pay interest on the deferred amounts.” The Broncos were fined and stripped of a draft-pick in December R01 for violating guidelines under the NFL’s deferred compensation fund.


Really? Sure seems to me like creating an atmosphere where players can be paid under the table creates a bit of an advantage for a team. I wonder how many players they did this with and DIDN'T get caught?

It's a salary cap. You either respect it or you're a cheater.

We cheated.... and got caught twice.... who knows how many other infractions there were.

So we circumvented the cap to help pay for a building. Damn we are monsters. That building obviously gave us the extra push to win our super bowls.::)

TheDave
02-22-2009, 02:49 PM
You really believe a member of the coaching staff was not a part of the cheating? Well, I suppose he could have been totally out of the loop, but if he was, one wonders just what he did to earn his paycheck.

Let me put it this way... I don't think he was/is any more of a "cheater" than Shanahan was/is.

Personally, I'm going to let this play out a little bit before i start hanging labels on the kid.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 02:50 PM
WTF happened in this thread?!?!

Jesus...

It got 'Blue-Flamed' ;D

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 02:50 PM
WTF happened in this thread?!?!

Jesus...
join the fun Rev!
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/21/international_pillow_fight_day_2.jpg

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:50 PM
So we circumvented the cap to help pay for a building. Damn we are monsters. That building obviously gave us the extra push to win our super bowls.::)

You're missing the point, junior.

We circumvented the cap to give ourselves a competitive advantage. Doesnt' matter what our reasoning was....

"Sorry your honor, I just robbed the liquor store to buy food...."

It's just as goddamned pathetic to condone our own cheating as it is for NE fans to do so.

It's even more ridiculous to call McDaniels a cheater before his ****ing foot is in the door. It's idiocy.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 02:51 PM
This is the same nonsense we saw when Plummer came to town... when Jay Cutler came to town and now McDaniels.





When Plummer came to town, he came in with pretty well universal good will. There was some initial apprehension about whether or not he would be the final solution given the fact that he was an Arizona retread, but people got over that once the preseason came around and he brought a lot of mobility to the backfield that was welcomed as refreshing.

It wasn't until after his midseason meltdown during his second year, capped off by terrible performances in the playoffs that anyone (namely me) started to question his ability to get it done in big games. Sadly, Plummer went on to prove these doubts as well founded.

Whatever doubts anybody has about jettisoning our superbowl winning iconic coach of 14 years in favor of a 32 year old kid, those doubts will materialize into hope come September, and from there, it will be up to McDaniels to show his quality.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:51 PM
If your afraid of a "cheater" taint, its too late. I remember when the taping thing went down, the Bronco salary cap violations were brought up in every conversation about it. You may not think it qualifies as cheating, but the rest of the league did.

We were punished just as harshly, and in TWO separate events.

(Aside from the other numerous accounts of us cheating the injury report, using illegal substances, etc.)

DBroncos4life
02-22-2009, 02:52 PM
I wonder what John Blake could do at the NFL level. My bad he did well at the NFL level with the Cowboys. He is the guy I want. :)

broncolife
02-22-2009, 02:52 PM
WTF happened in this thread?!?!

Jesus...

:threadjac

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:53 PM
Yea, you SUPPOSE is the problem. You're pulling this out of your ass and have no idea what you're talking about.

You're convicting McDaniels before he's stepped foot in Denver, and I just gave you example of Romeo Crennel leading a perfectly clean coaching campaign in Cleveland.

So, again... you're just full of ****.

I'm kinda assuming that if a team is cheating, that team's OC is probably aware of it. Romeo Crennel is irrelevant to this conversation.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:53 PM
When Plummer came to town, he came in with pretty well universal good will.

Plummer isn't the issue, though Blueflame was mad at him out of the gate because he pinched a girl's butt, yet she condoned Griese driving around town drunk, risking people's lives.


Whatever doubts anybody has about jettisoning our superbowl winning iconic coach of 14 years in favor of a 32 year old kid, those doubts will materialize into hope come September, and from there, it will be up to McDaniels to show his quality.

Agree.

Shanahan was a young head coach, too... at the time. Other young coaches have had success. (See this year.)

My issue is with calling him a cheater before he's done ANYTHING in Denver.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 02:55 PM
My issue is with calling him a cheater before he's done ANYTHING in Denver.

Let's run him out of town before he cheats.....or succeeds. ;D

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:55 PM
How can you possibly know?

If someone working for a company steals, is ever employee tainted?? Of course not.

You seem to be trying to find reasons not to like McDaniel, give him a chance and stop applying 'guilt by association'. It's dead wrong!

With all due respect, that's a flawed analogy.

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:56 PM
I'm kinda assuming that if a team is cheating, that team's OC is probably aware of it.

Maybe, maybe not... maybe he knows, but doesn't have control to stop it... maybe he's not fully aware... etc.

Point is, you just don't know. You have no clue. So, your speculation is silly.

Romeo Crennel is irrelevant to this conversation.

He's a coach that worked directly under Bill B. and yet, no cheating issues after leaving.

So, he's 100% relevant.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 02:56 PM
You're missing the point, junior.

We circumvented the cap to give ourselves a competitive advantage. Doesnt' matter what our reasoning was....

That's absolutely BS. We didn't circumvent the cap to give ourselves a competitive advantage. We didn't circumvent the cap at all. In fact, the NFL ruled exactly that we didn't gain a competitive advantage because the cap figures were the same - the payments for those figures were merely deferred due to Pat's money being tied up in the new construction deal.

The league's reason for fining us was that they didn't want teams to spend up to the cap, but defer the payments in fear of the financial risk involved for the league as a whole if a team operated in debt. So to ensure that the league operated on a credit only basis, they made it so the cap figures didn't count until the players actually received the payment. The rule wasn't actually even on the books before we attempted it.

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 02:56 PM
I am concerned about Kidd in the respect that he's been out of the league for 5 years now. He hasn't been hired by ANYONE for a long time. That's disturbing. I'm not a huge fan of hiring a columnist for ESPN as Pro Scouting Director. Hell, he isn't even the top scout at ESPN (McShay). The fact that he also presided over scouting for the Browns and Cardinals during their rather pathetic periods does not help Kidd's case either.

This looks an awful lot like sheer nepotism. He (McD) knew the guy at NE and boom....he's now the man. He hires coaches who share his same agent. Bowlen's words about bifurcating the office of the GM from the office of the HC ring hollow. Xanders is basically purely a cap guy. His former boss has criticized him on personnel grounds. This is not the type of hire that inspires confidence on the personnel side of things. We'll see who is hired on the College Scouting side, but I'm pretty underwhelmed.

It has gotten to the point where I don't trust Bowlen's judgement on anything. He contradicts himself. He appears to be doing things by the seat of his pants. First, Goodman isn't going anywhere and he's in charge and is praised for his personnel achievements and then boom, he's gone in favor of some numbers cruncher. Then we get some douche columnist HC's friend as Pro Scouting Director. It's clear that McDaniels is attempting to consolidate all the power into his hands.

This new administration has alot to prove. I'm very concerned about Bowlen as well. It's not a joke, anymore. I think he really does have an alcohol problem. I think its a real issue. It's not just something for laughs. I don't think he's firmly in command. I don't think he's on the ball. I don't trust him.

Before that you made some good points.

Bowlen wants a winner. Denver should be right up there with Pittsburgh right now. Bowlen knows he let the franchise down, and he wasn't going to continue with failures year after year. His sober appraisal of the Bronco situation obviously mandated a shakeup.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 02:57 PM
With all due respect, that's a flawed analogy.

You'll have to 'splain it to me. ;D

Popps
02-22-2009, 02:57 PM
With all due respect, that's a flawed analogy.

No, it's a proper analogy.

You hear of Bernie Madoff?

You understand that a good number of his traders had no idea it was a scam, right? They were PROVEN to be innocent.

Maybe McD knew, maybe he didn't... and maybe it was somewhere in between. We don't know, and you sure the **** don't know.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 02:58 PM
We were punished just as harshly, and in TWO separate events.

(Aside from the other numerous accounts of us cheating the injury report, using illegal substances, etc.)

Sure... losing a 3rd round pick is just the same as losing a first-rounder.

Hercules Rockefeller
02-22-2009, 02:58 PM
As TJ pointed out, the League said on both occasions that the Broncos never received a competitive advantge.

The reporting on both incidents was so shotty it's not even funny.

For a league that escalates punishment for each infraction, it should tell you something that Denver was fined the same thing the second time around too. The second case was just stupid, deferring money to pay for Invesco. Oooooooh, that's so terrible.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 03:02 PM
Plummer isn't the issue, though Blueflame was mad at him out of the gate because he pinched a girl's butt, yet she condoned Griese driving around town drunk, risking people's lives.



Agree.

Shanahan was a young head coach, too... at the time. Other young coaches have had success. (See this year.)

My issue is with calling him a cheater before he's done ANYTHING in Denver.

BTW, I was right about Plummer... he was what he was; an inconsistent QB who wasn't ever going to win a SB. Griese is totally irrelevant...but for the record, I think if one's going to drink, they shouldn't drive. And vice versa.

My concern is that he worked for a franchise that was cheating... I hope cheating is not a part of his playbook.

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:02 PM
Let's run him out of town before he cheats.....or succeeds. ;D


McCheater.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 03:02 PM
My issue is with calling him a cheater before he's done ANYTHING in Denver.


Well, I certainly don't think he's a cheater. Hell, the guy reminds me of one of my best friends from watching the interviews. It blows my mind that he's my age.

But in any case, I agree with you that he shouldn't be called a cheater. I don't think Belichick's sin reflects on him at all. And for that matter, if there was no rule, I don't blame Belichick at all - though I'll admit I didn't care enough about that ordeal to pay too much attention to it.

But what I do know is that it's faulty to say we circumvented the cap to win our Superbowls. That's not what happened at all. We deferred payment of two star players after coming to an agreement with those players, and counted their cap numbers for that season. It was creative accounting, to be sure - but that's the nature of a salary cap. They have since closed that loop hole, and if we did it now - THEN it could be considered cheating.

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:03 PM
BTW, I was right about Plummer..

No, you wanted to keep a loser (Greise) and instead, we went on to actually put winning seasons together.

But, let's stick to the topic of McCheater... K?

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 03:04 PM
Thank God...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2007/11/14/2004013867.jpg

Tonya Harding sure was playing all the cards she had available. I'd play strip poker with her.

Hercules Rockefeller
02-22-2009, 03:04 PM
But what I do know is that it's faulty to say we circumvented the cap to win our Superbowls. That's not what happened at all. We deferred payment of two star players after coming to an agreement with those players, and counted their cap numbers for that season. It was creative accounting, to be sure - but that's the nature of a salary cap. They have since closed that loop hole, and if we did it now - THEN it could be considered cheating.

To be nitpicky when I agree with everything else, it was 3 players, #7, #30, and #84 were involved. Everyone forgets Shannon since he was only owed about $1M when TD and Elway were owed about $22M combined.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 03:05 PM
Tonya Harding sure was playing all the cards she had available. I'd play strip poker with her.

Wear pads. ;D

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:05 PM
That's absolutely BS. We didn't circumvent the cap to give ourselves a competitive advantage.


We broke cap rules to provide ourselves more currency. Whether we used it for a stadium (some might consider an advantage!) or we used it to lure players in with under-the-table money, we still broke the rules of the game.

Hence, we were punished...

twice.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 03:05 PM
Tonya Harding sure was playing all the cards she had available. I'd play strip poker with her.


I wouldn't even want to shop at the same grocery store at the same time with Tonay Harding.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 03:07 PM
That's absolutely BS. We didn't circumvent the cap to give ourselves a competitive advantage. We didn't circumvent the cap at all. In fact, the NFL ruled exactly that we didn't gain a competitive advantage because the cap figures were the same - the payments for those figures were merely deferred due to Pat's money being tied up in the new construction deal.

The league's reason for fining us was that they didn't want teams to spend up to the cap, but defer the payments in fear of the financial risk involved for the league as a whole if a team operated in debt. So to ensure that the league operated on a credit only basis, they made it so the cap figures didn't count until the players actually received the payment. The rule wasn't actually even on the books before we attempted it.

Exactly... at that very moment the leauge was already worried about how the teams would shoulder the debt responsibilities if teams like the Vikes went under...let alone if they were defering debt to the future.

Some fans will never understand this

Hercules Rockefeller
02-22-2009, 03:08 PM
BTW, I was right about Plummer... he was what he was; an inconsistent QB who wasn't ever going to win a SB.

Congrats Nostradamus, you really went out on a limb with that one.

If anyone can call their shot, that would be me and TJ calling a QB pick in the 1st round of the '06 draft before the '05 draft had even taken place.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 03:10 PM
We broke cap rules to provide ourselves more currency.


We didn't even break the rules at the time. There weren't rules. What they said we broke at the time was in essence "the spirit" of the salary cap. It was an imperfect system with loopholes. We were penalized for finding the loopholes. We were penalized for innovating.

You know what happened? Other teams started to hire our salary cap gurus of the time. We lost some of our best resources to other teams. Eventually, they closed all the loopholes (almost all of them - I've always heard that the Broncos still had a few tricks up their sleeves that there was no way for the league to regulate against).


Whether we used it for a stadium (some might consider an advantage!) or we used it to lure players in with under-the-table money, we still broke the rules of the game.

Hence, we were punished...

twice.

You're just wrong. But take heart. Chiefs and Raiders fans see it your way, despite the facts.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 03:10 PM
Popps...was that a Zildjian SDBJZWB Black Wood Tip Jazz Drumstick you just chucked at me?

DBroncos4life
02-22-2009, 03:10 PM
I wouldn't even want to shop at the same grocery store at the same time with Tonay Harding.

I wouldn't even sleep with her with bobs wiener.

broncolife
02-22-2009, 03:11 PM
You're missing the point, junior.

We circumvented the cap to give ourselves a competitive advantage. Doesnt' matter what our reasoning was....

"Sorry your honor, I just robbed the liquor store to buy food...."

It's just as goddamned pathetic to condone our own cheating as it is for NE fans to do so.

It's even more ridiculous to call McDaniels a cheater before his ****ing foot is in the door. It's idiocy.

Paying for a building is not getting a competitive advantage. If I wasnt so lazy I would go look up all the links that say we didnt get a competitive advantage. If we would have signed more players instead of paying for a building then I would be with you on this.I dont think Mcdaniels is a cheater but he could be and I dont really care unless he gets caught:) Hes a Bronco now and I support him.

skpac1001
02-22-2009, 03:11 PM
The league's reason for fining us was that they didn't want teams to spend up to the cap, but defer the payments in fear of the financial risk involved for the league as a whole if a team operated in debt. So to ensure that the league operated on a credit only basis, they made it so the cap figures didn't count until the players actually received the payment. The rule wasn't actually even on the books before we attempted it.

That explains why they made a rule change but it doesn't explain why they fined us.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 03:13 PM
Congrats Nostradamus, you really went out on a limb with that one.

If anyone can call their shot, that would be me and TJ calling a QB pick in the 1st round of the '06 draft before the '05 draft had even taken place.

Yeah, well.... more than just a few here thought Plummer was the missing piece that would mean another Lombardi ... and Popps was one of them. LOL

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 03:14 PM
We didn't even break the rules at the time. There weren't rules. What they said we broke at the time was in essence "the spirit" of the salary cap. It was an imperfect system with loopholes. We were penalized for finding the loopholes. We were penalized for innovating.

You know what happened? Other teams started to hire our salary cap gurus of the time. We lost some of our best resources to other teams. Eventually, they closed all the loopholes (almost all of them - I've always heard that the Broncos still had a few tricks up their sleeves that there was no way for the league to regulate against).




You're just wrong. But take heart. Chiefs and Raiders fans see it your way, despite the facts.

Whoa... that's gonna leave a mark.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 03:15 PM
We didn't even break the rules at the time. There weren't rules. What they said we broke at the time was in essence "the spirit" of the salary cap. It was an imperfect system with loopholes. We were penalized for finding the loopholes. We were penalized for innovating.

You know what happened? Other teams started to hire our salary cap gurus of the time. We lost some of our best resources to other teams. Eventually, they closed all the loopholes (almost all of them - I've always heard that the Broncos still had a few tricks up their sleeves that there was no way for the league to regulate against).




You're just wrong. But take heart. Chiefs and Raiders fans see it your way, despite the facts.

Do we still have those old threads around arguing with fader fans about this? This is one of those topics we should archive under a special section called MYTHBUSTERS! for those times when such occasions arrise.

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:15 PM
Paying for a building is not getting a competitive advantage. .

Reeeeealy?

More money for ownership isn't a competitive advantage?

Hes a Bronco now and I support him.

Well, we agree on one thing.

Too bad some won't.

skpac1001
02-22-2009, 03:17 PM
Whoa... that's gonna leave a mark.

You don't think Raider and Chief fans now support your current position on McDaniels?

Kaylore
02-22-2009, 03:18 PM
I was trying to figure out how this got to page seven. I see now. ::)

For what it's worth I'm not jazzed about Kidd. There weren't any free agents the Patriots brought in between 2002-2004 that were that great and none of them are still on the team. Of course he was just an assistant, so there's that excuse, but I don't see what qualifies him to head a department. Being out of football and working for ESPN is a mark of dishonor, IMO.

We'll see, but if we start signing more losers I know who's going to be at fault.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 03:19 PM
Yeah, well.... more than just a few here thought Plummer was the missing piece that would mean another Lombardi ... and Popps was one of them. LOL

ok, I'll stand next to my bronco brother Popps and take a pie in the face for that one.

... then again, I think that way about many a flava-clown we get. A hopeless homer I am...

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 03:20 PM
You don't think Raider and Chief fans now support your current position on McDaniels?

I think everyone who isn't a Pats fan believes the Patriots cheated. I'd say that Raider and Chief fans probably do agree with my expressed hope that McD doesn't cheat like his boss did. For different reasons than mine, obviously.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 03:21 PM
You don't think Raider and Chief fans now support your current position on McDaniels?

In that case I just hope he cheats as good as his Sith Lord did then.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 03:22 PM
That explains why they made a rule change but it doesn't explain why they fined us.

The fact that they fined us was complete BS. But the NFL made their ruling, and the only thing we could do was take it.

There's no way that it's cheating for John Elway and Terrell Davis to say, "sure, we'll accept our payment a year later than it's due so that you can pay your contractors." It wasn't like they weren't being counted against the cap. They simply agreed to take their due money a year later.

But, like I say, the league didn't want to see teams like Detroit making these (what they called then) credit card deals, and not be able to pay a year later. So they fined us, and closed the loop hole.

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:23 PM
You're just wrong. But take heart. Chiefs and Raiders fans see it your way, despite the facts.

Shame part of Broncos' shine

By Mark Kiszla
Denver Post Staff Columnist

The diamonds in their Super Bowl rings still shine. But the NFL championships won by the Broncos have been tarnished.

After a 20-month investigation, the league ruled Thursday that Denver circumvented salary-cap rules from 1996-98, a crucial period in franchise history when the Broncos won back-to-back world titles and earned taxpayer approval for a new $400 million stadium.

The punishment for the Broncos was a fine of nearly $1 million and forfeiture of a third-round draft choice.

The shame of getting caught should be far greater.

While expressing contrition, franchise owner Pat Bowlen took zero responsibility for the embarrassing transgressions, and claimed the Broncos gained no competitive advantage by persuading players to defer salary at a time he was cash-strapped and pushing hard for construction of a stadium that would line his pockets with fresh money.

That's a cop-out by Bowlen. Denver cheated.


When the Broncos beat Green Bay and Atlanta to win championships in back-to-back seasons, Denver was the best team on the field. But there is also no way to sugarcoat the findings. Along the road to the Super Bowl, the Broncos broke accounting rules.

So why should any fan care?

In a league that prides itself on parity, the salary cap is the single most essential tool to ensure competitive balance.

Hear that ugly cackle? Somewhere, dirty Al Davis must be laughing.

Davis, who owns the Raiders, has long claimed both Denver and San Francisco cheated to win big in the 1990s.

"Those people broke the rules, they circumvented the cap, and they're owners and they cheated," he said in 2000.

Four years later, Davis has reason to feel validated and the Broncos have reason to feel shame. For the second time in three seasons, Denver has been cited for violation of league financial policies.

In essence, the Broncos surreptitiously asked players to defer salary with interest.

Quarterback John Elway and running back Terrell Davis, the two most valuable and expensive stars of the team's glory years, agreed to defer so much money the NFL deemed it unsound business.

If, as Bowlen maintains, his team did not benefit on the scoreboard by bending the rules, then why has the NFL twice hit Denver hard, imposing more than $1.9 million in penalties and stripping the Broncos of two draft picks since 2002?

Of course, this seems a small price to pay for the pleasure of hoisting the Lombardi Trophy and raking in the cash from Invesco Field at Mile High.

Fewer than 10 months after the Broncos upset the Packers in Super Bowl XXXII, taxpayers thanked Bowlen by approving a $300 million donation to a new playing facility in a landslide vote. Any voter who believes in fair competition might now wonder who was zooming whom.

This investigation takes nothing away from the bravery of Terrell Davis blindly running to a Super Bowl huddle, his heart beating strong while a migraine momentarily robbed him of sight. The hefty fines levied do not diminish the smile Elway wore as he walked away from football a winner in his final game.

But, as much as it pains me to admit, Al Davis does have a valid point. The Broncos did not win those championships entirely fair and square.

Nobody at NFL headquarters is asking Denver to return the Super Bowl rings. The Broncos, however, should send them back to the jeweler for a little more work.

Those gaudy rings are already loaded with 124 diamonds, 18-karat gold and the phrase "Back 2 Back."

One more item, however, needs to be added:

An asterisk.


Again, Taco... spin it how you want. Personally, I don't think it gave us any big advantage, just like I doubt NE needed a practice tape to beat people.

This isn't about the specifics of the Broncos cheating incidents, it's about whether or not we're innocent of them. (We're not... we've cheated and been caught multiple times.)

It's also about McDaniel and people deeming him a cheater before he's done a single thing in Denver.

Kaylore
02-22-2009, 03:25 PM
Kizla's hack piece, Popps? You seriously post and op-ed by dickwad Kizla and think you've one-upped everyone? That's as good as posting PFT.

By the way, the league gave Denver their third round pick back as a compensatory selection even though they didn't lose the free agents the year before to merit it. It was mostly a dog and pony show to shut up Al Davis. No competitive advantage was earned.

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:25 PM
But, like I say, the league didn't want to see teams like Detroit making these (what they called then) credit card deals, and not be able to pay a year later. So they fined us, and closed the loop hole.

So, we circumvented the system that was in place to benefit our cash-flow.

Cheating.

How about Shanahan's regular manipulation of the injury report, including his fines for playing games with Elway's injuries?

That was all in good fun, too? No advantage there?

How about our linemen dunking themselves in doughnut oil before games?

Harmless fun?

Taco John
02-22-2009, 03:27 PM
What you just bolded is what I just said. But there weren't rules in place at the time. The NFL just arbitrarily ruled against us due to "the spirit" of it, and then closed the loop holes.

I understand that when you're wrong, you don't admit it, and instead dig in further.

I don't see any more reason for me to participate in this particular discussion. I just wanted to get the truth on record.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 03:30 PM
I think Popps is just getting us all in BS debate shape for all the faider, chef fans who'll be slinging this same tripe later in the year.

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 03:32 PM
Ok Boys and Girls, good pillow fight... first round is on me!

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:33 PM
I understand that when you're wrong, you don't admit it, and instead dig in further.
.

Did the league award us draft picks as compensation for them incorrectly punishing us?

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. I'm just reporting news, boss. We were caught circumventing the cap... T W I C E, and the league punished us for it.

One doesn't circumvent a rule without one gaining SOME advantage.

Point is, in the eyes of the league... we were cheaters. Plain and simple.

----

Now, what do I think about it? I happen to agree with you. I think we bent rules on a regular basis. Did we ever bend too far? Look, probably so... but I think all great teams do. ALL great teams. Remember, there were more than just these two issues. We had other infractions and lord knows we were accused of everything in the book.

You're missing the big picture here, Taco. I'm not down on Shanahan or the organization for what we did, even if some of it pushed beyond limits. (And it probably did.)

What I'm opposed to is the imaginary farce being created around here by Blueflame that McDaniels is a cheater before he's done a single thing in Denver.

Kaylore
02-22-2009, 03:40 PM
What I'm opposed to is the imaginary farce being created around here by Blueflame that McDaniels is a cheater before he's done a single thing in Denver.

This is where the argument will be won, so just stick to this. Trying to equate some moral comparison between Bowlen trying to move things around to pay for his stadium (which gives a financial advantage, but not a competitive one and had he been stopped early would have only resulted in him doing some other kind of shifting, and no loss of players) and using video cameras to learn signals to beat other teams in a game are not at all comparable.

How about point out that the Patriots are not a product of cheating? They're a product of good drafting and good coaching. After the tapes were confiscated and destroyed they proceeded to win 18 straight games. They did cheat and it was wrong but I think it's a stretch for anyone to suggest that's all they are and that was the "secret" of their success.

It is just as ludicrous to think that anyone on that staff at the time in any fashion, related or not to the incident, is now sullied and their entire career and skill set are in question because of spygate. It's even more crazy to wring our hands over Josh McDaniels turning us all into cheaters (I mean seriously?).

theAPAOps5
02-22-2009, 03:41 PM
I wondered how this thread got to 8 pages on a Sunday. Then I saw TJ and Popps were flirting again! LOL

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:42 PM
It is just as ludicrous to think that anyone on that staff is now sullied their entire career because of spygate. It's even more crazy to wring our hands over Josh McDaniels turning us all into cheaters (I mean seriously?).

Precisely.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 03:44 PM
Point is, in the eyes of the league... we were cheaters. Plain and simple.




My final, final last word on the topic... You can't break rules that don't exist. There was a new system in place, and we were one of only like three teams who were out there pushing the boundaries to find loopholes. In our case, we needed to find the loopholes because Bowlen had all his money tied up in the new construction, and so he went to the teams two biggest icons and asked them if they'd defer their payments a year. They both agreed, so long as they received interest on those payments. They both counted against the cap that year. The combination of the interest (which wasn't counted against the cap) and the deferment is what got us into trouble. But the league itself ruled that we didn't gain a competitive advantage. They went so far as to issuing an official statement stating as much. And like Kaylore said, they eventually gave us draft compensation for the issue because of our appeals.

We didn't cheat the cap, because the rules didn't exist. But the NFL had to do something because they didn't want those loopholes to remain open, and to just simply close them would have still drawn protest from Al Davis because then we'd have been the only team who managed to exploit the loophole.

On the legitimacy of our Superbowls, I disagree with you and Kiszla.

But on the McDaniels issue, I agree with you. I don't consider him a cheater.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 03:45 PM
Did the league award us draft picks as compensation for them incorrectly punishing us?

I'm not saying I'm right or wrong. I'm just reporting news, boss. We were caught circumventing the cap... T W I C E, and the league punished us for it.

One doesn't circumvent a rule without one gaining SOME advantage.

Point is, in the eyes of the league... we were cheaters. Plain and simple.

----

Now, what do I think about it? I happen to agree with you. I think we bent rules on a regular basis. Did we ever bend too far? Look, probably so... but I think all great teams do. ALL great teams. Remember, there were more than just these two issues. We had other infractions and lord knows we were accused of everything in the book.

You're missing the big picture here, Taco. I'm not down on Shanahan or the organization for what we did, even if some of it pushed beyond limits. (And it probably did.)

What I'm opposed to is the imaginary farce being created around here by Blueflame that McDaniels is a cheater before he's done a single thing in Denver.

I just wish our new HC had been mentored by anyone but Belicheat and come from any franchise but the Cheatriots.

Popps
02-22-2009, 03:59 PM
M
On the legitimacy of our Superbowls, I disagree with you and Kiszla.
.

No, you disagree with Kiszla, perhaps. But, I've championed Shanahan and our Superbowls around here for years, Taco. You know that.

Don't be silly.

gyldenlove
02-22-2009, 04:34 PM
There are many forms of cheating, is it cheating if you put powder in your opponents eyes in chess so he can't see? there is no rule prohibiting it, but it is not exactly fair.

I think our super bowls were legit, we did not cheat in a way that gave us an advantage over the rest of the league on the field. We did bend the rules and we did work against the spirit of the rules just like most teams do (fudging injury reports, tampering, using fake noise on the stadium to make it harder for the away team and other similar things). The Patriots did the same, as do the Steelers and the Colts, even the Raiders and Lions.

McDaniels isn't a cheater any more or any less than any other coach in the league.

Br0nc0Buster
02-22-2009, 04:45 PM
There are many forms of cheating, is it cheating if you put powder in your opponents eyes in chess so he can't see? there is no rule prohibiting it, but it is not exactly fair.



Bad chess experience huh?

next time wear goggles

Tombstone RJ
02-22-2009, 05:18 PM
Oh, I love the team. No one is prouder of this team than I am.

Sure, I wish they would have played by the rules, but I don't think that takes away what we accomplished, just like I believe NE is a top notch franchise, despite being caught with a camcorder in a practice field.

That's called being consistent.

What you're doing is called stinky bull****.

I agree with posters who say that the Broncos infractions are no way in the same league as the Pat's infractions.

At most, the Broncos found a loophole, and exploited it. If anything, the NFL OVERREACTED in order to make a point.

Taco John
02-22-2009, 05:22 PM
No, you disagree with Kiszla, perhaps. But, I've championed Shanahan and our Superbowls around here for years, Taco. You know that.

Don't be silly.


Then I'm confused by your line of argumentation... But no matter. I wouldn't care to try to keep any Broncos fan from enjoying those wins - which is why I'm adamant about the facts of this issue - I don't believe that the facts support the notion that we "cheated the cap." I just wanted to refresh the arguments in support of this because if the facts aren't re-introduced, I think it's easy to lose sight of them in the face of the "well if you didn't do anything wrong, then why did the league fine you" line of reasoning that Raiders and Chiefs fans use to argue against our legitimacy.

Likewise, I don't consider McDaniels a cheater either. I don't believe in guilt by association in these matters.

Popps
02-22-2009, 05:23 PM
I agree with posters who say what the Broncos did fall to the same level of "cheating" as to what the Patriots did.

At most, the Broncos found a loophole, and exploited it. If anything, the NFL OVERREACTED in order to make a point.

I tend to agree, here... but the point still remains. We were disciplined on more than that particular issue. There were several proven and many accusations outside of that.

My point wasn't to denigrate the franchise, rather to point out the lunacy of calling McDaniel a cheater with nothing upon which to base it.

Tombstone RJ
02-22-2009, 05:26 PM
I tend to agree, here... but the point still remains. We were disciplined on more than that particular issue. There were several proven and many accusations outside of that.

My point wasn't to denigrate the franchise, rather to point out the lunacy of calling McDaniel a cheater with nothing upon which to base it.

I agree, its called sour grapes. The posters here who want to villify McD because well, he was there when it happened are probably alot of the same posters who still want Shanahan in Dove Valley.

elsid13
02-22-2009, 05:29 PM
This is where the argument will be won, so just stick to this. Trying to equate some moral comparison between Bowlen trying to move things around to pay for his stadium (which gives a financial advantage, but not a competitive one and had he been stopped early would have only resulted in him doing some other kind of shifting, and no loss of players) and using video cameras to learn signals to beat other teams in a game are not at all comparable.

How about point out that the Patriots are not a product of cheating? They're a product of good drafting and good coaching. After the tapes were confiscated and destroyed they proceeded to win 18 straight games. They did cheat and it was wrong but I think it's a stretch for anyone to suggest that's all they are and that was the "secret" of their success.

It is just as ludicrous to think that anyone on that staff at the time in any fashion, related or not to the incident, is now sullied and their entire career and skill set are in question because of spygate. It's even more crazy to wring our hands over Josh McDaniels turning us all into cheaters (I mean seriously?).

Look I have no problem with "cheating", it's competitive world and any advantage you can take is worth the chance at time. But let not give McKid a free pass. AS OC he would have been one of the coaches that would have had passed the information and used it. I am sure he regrets getting caught but right now he needs to prove to all of us that he has the ability to lead this organization to Super Bowl.

broncogary
02-22-2009, 05:29 PM
Hey, there's a new pissing contest just starting in Spider's new thread.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 05:32 PM
Hey, there's a new pissing contest just starting in Spider's new thread.

It won't stay on topic for long. ;D

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 05:34 PM
So to summarize, we're all happy with the Kidd hiring??

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 05:35 PM
I tend to agree, here... but the point still remains. We were disciplined on more than that particular issue. There were several proven and many accusations outside of that.

My point wasn't to denigrate the franchise, rather to point out the lunacy of calling McDaniel a cheater with nothing upon which to base it.

Spygate wasn't "nothing"... like it or not, McD was a part of a franchise (a member of a coaching staff) that was actively cheating. And again, all I'm saying is... hopefully the cheating ways stayed in NE and won't follow to Denver. I don't want the Broncos to be "Cheatriots v.2"....

eddie mac
02-22-2009, 05:36 PM
The fact that they fined us was complete BS. But the NFL made their ruling, and the only thing we could do was take it.

There's no way that it's cheating for John Elway and Terrell Davis to say, "sure, we'll accept our payment a year later than it's due so that you can pay your contractors." It wasn't like they weren't being counted against the cap. They simply agreed to take their due money a year later.

But, like I say, the league didn't want to see teams like Detroit making these (what they called then) credit card deals, and not be able to pay a year later. So they fined us, and closed the loop hole.

To what extent I dont know but Bowlen is still deferring salary according to a recent article from Legwold in RMN.

Apparently Bly walked away with a $3m cash payment owed to him from last year and Dan Graham's owed another $2m from 2007 or 2008. Both amounts have already been capitulated without being paid.

Maybe there's a maximum amount you're allowed to defer each season.

skpac1001
02-22-2009, 05:37 PM
Spygate wasn't "nothing"... like it or not, McD was a part of a franchise (a member of a coaching staff) that was actively cheating. And again, all I'm saying is... hopefully the cheating ways stayed in NE and won't follow to Denver. I don't want the Broncos to be "Cheatriots v.2"....

Maybe that's why Pat hired him, his "creative" new approaches. Luckily there the division is filling up with the former "Cheatriot" staff so they will watch each other.

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 05:38 PM
So to summarize, we're all happy with the Kidd hiring??

I'm not. He came from the Cheatriots.

skpac1001
02-22-2009, 05:40 PM
I'm not. He came from the Cheatriots.

I bet he tapes college practices. Just more cheater tactics.

Inkana7
02-22-2009, 05:45 PM
I'm not. He came from the Cheatriots.

They've won 3 championships and been in 4 this decade. This is a bad thing?

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 05:57 PM
I'm not. He came from the Cheatriots.

So............ are you still going to be a fan?? ;D

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 05:58 PM
They've won 3 championships and been in 4 this decade. This is a bad thing?

Depends on if you think cheating is OK or not, I suppose.

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 06:01 PM
True or false? He was a part of the Patriots' cheating.

Jeez they had to cheat. Vladimir Putin pocketed one of Krafts SB rings:

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2005/06/29/for_putin_its_a_gem_of_a_cultural_exchange/

Putin took the ring, Kraft was there looking like a toddler when the dog took binker. LOL

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 06:01 PM
So............ are you still going to be a fan?? ;D

Dunno why you'd even ask that... I'll always be a Broncos fan.That's never gonna change.

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 06:16 PM
I wouldn't even want to shop at the same grocery store at the same time with Tonay Harding.

Who's Tonay? And what do groceries have to do with it? It's just strip poker. One could always fold.

elsid13
02-22-2009, 06:19 PM
Thank God...

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2007/11/14/2004013867.jpg

Spider ~ I hit it

TheDave
02-22-2009, 06:23 PM
Spider ~ I hit it

I don't even think Spider would go where Galuli has gone...

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 06:23 PM
Dunno why you'd even ask that... I'll always be a Broncos fan.That's never gonna change.

Does your sense of humor take Sunday's off? :welcome:

Blueflame
02-22-2009, 06:25 PM
Does your sense of humor take Sunday's off? :welcome:

Sorry... forgot the smiley. :~ohyah!: (I did recognize that you weren't being serious ;))

elsid13
02-22-2009, 06:27 PM
I don't even think Spider would go where Galuli has gone...

Wanna bet???

TheDave
02-22-2009, 06:29 PM
No... No i don't. I'm just hoping that even Spider has some standards.

elsid13
02-22-2009, 06:32 PM
No... No i don't. I'm just hoping that even Spider has some standards.

I gave that hope long ago after I found out that he was willing to dual you for Bea Arthur phone number.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 06:32 PM
Sorry... forgot the smiley. :~ohyah!: (I did recognize that you weren't being serious ;))

;D

TheDave
02-22-2009, 06:33 PM
I gave that hope long ago after I found out that he was willing to dual you for Bea Arthur phone number.

Don't you be talking bad about Bea...

Dedhed
02-22-2009, 06:43 PM
No. Our 2007 class looks like a lot of busts to me. We might be overvaluing last years draft considering that it was more often injury than talent that gave so many rookies playing time...

I don't think its possible to overvalue finding a franchise left tackle. If the rest of the draft was a bust, it would still be a successful draft for that alone. Given we also landed Royal and several other players who look to have some upside you'd have to be a true fool to call the class a bunch of busts, not just a pseudofool.

bowtown
02-22-2009, 06:48 PM
I don't think its possible to overvalue finding a franchise left tackle. If the rest of the draft was a bust, it would still be a successful draft for that alone. Given we also landed Royal and several other players who look to have some upside you'd have to be a true fool to call the class a bunch of busts, not just a pseudofool.

pssst... wrong draft.

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 07:52 PM
So to summarize, we're all happy with the Kidd hiring??

Joe Kidd is the hero, I think we can all agree with that. Tonay Harding is the heroine. It was good drama. Joe and Tonay ride into the sunset, all is good in Dove Valley. Coo-coo.

DenverBrit
02-22-2009, 08:00 PM
Joe Kidd is the hero, I think we can all agree with that. Tonay Harding is the heroine. It was good drama. Joe and Tonay ride into the sunset, all is good in Dove Valley. Coo-coo.

http://www.jabandgrapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/sunset_nc.jpg

THE END

Bronco Yoda
02-22-2009, 08:31 PM
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Broncos_OTM
02-22-2009, 08:43 PM
Whaaaaaaaaaa, Whaaaaaaaaaa, I love the Goodmans and Shanahan, we can never evaluate talent again! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'm scared, I don't think anyone else can identify talent!

you make me sick fanboy.
You're quickly becoming near troll status as bob. if you havent surpassed it. You're right shanny isnt here anymore.. You let it die like people crying about him being gone. Why dont you do us all a favor and STFU

Broncos_OTM
02-22-2009, 11:46 PM
I'm not. He came from the Cheatriots.

Thing is we don't know EXACTLY who on the patriots cheated. That's a pretty wide brush to be painting with don't you think.

And since we are now the patriots west. would you please turn your broncos jersey in at the door on your way out

DenverBrit
02-23-2009, 06:46 AM
Ok, I had to 'fix' it first. ;D


Belichick misses some of old cheating gang
Posted: 02/23/2009 12:30:00 AM MST

INDIANAPOLIS — For NFL coaches and front-office executives, the annual NFL combine is as much a family reunion as it is a scouting event.

Hotel lobbies. Steakhouses. Coffee shops. All are popular places to run into friends and former colleagues.

After a tumultuous offseason in which 11 teams hired new head coaches, the landscape here is notably different, said New England coach Bill Belichick, who has the third-longest tenure of any active coach.

"It just doesn't seem right to not have people like Mike Shanahan and Jon Gruden, Brian Billick, Steve Mariucci, guys that I've coached against, and in some cases, not very well, not be head coaches in the National Football League," Belichick said.

Shanahan was fired Dec. 30, Gruden last month by Tampa Bay.

"Mike Shanahan is certainly a Hall of Fame coach, and I know I've got to be on the list of people that he'll thank because of all the games that have been scheduled against us he's done pretty well," Belichick said. "I know I haven't beaten him too many times, and I'm not disappointed to not have him on the schedule, believe me."

Thumbs up for Broncos' new coach.

While Belichick lamented the changing guard, he praised Denver's new coach, Josh McDaniels. Belichick hired McDaniels for an entry-level job in the Patriots' personnel department in 2001, and McDaniels eventually became Belichick's offensive coordinator before accepting his first head coaching job on Jan. 12.

"That's certainly a loss personally. I consider Josh a great friend, and certainly a great coach," Belichick said. "I'm sure that Josh will do a great job in Denver on all fronts."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_11762947

Merlin
02-23-2009, 07:02 AM
He is been out of scouting (I'm sorry but writing for a stupid media outlet does not equate to being in the professional end of the business) for FIVE years, and no one has seen value in hiring him...but we bring him in as our DIRECTOR of scouting. Makes sense.

Mediator12
02-23-2009, 07:07 AM
Hey Blue, Small question for you on Cheating and former coaches.

Kubiak is about to get pummeled by the NFL for CHEATING in offseason practices by playing with pads during a minicamp. Kubiak is a former Shanahan disciple and was the OC during those superbowls. Therefore, by your logic DEN is strongly tied to cheating practices. Does that mean DEN grows cheating HC's just like NE?

Northman
02-23-2009, 07:10 AM
This is where the argument will be won, so just stick to this. Trying to equate some moral comparison between Bowlen trying to move things around to pay for his stadium (which gives a financial advantage, but not a competitive one and had he been stopped early would have only resulted in him doing some other kind of shifting, and no loss of players) and using video cameras to learn signals to beat other teams in a game are not at all comparable.

How about point out that the Patriots are not a product of cheating? They're a product of good drafting and good coaching. After the tapes were confiscated and destroyed they proceeded to win 18 straight games. They did cheat and it was wrong but I think it's a stretch for anyone to suggest that's all they are and that was the "secret" of their success.

It is just as ludicrous to think that anyone on that staff at the time in any fashion, related or not to the incident, is now sullied and their entire career and skill set are in question because of spygate. It's even more crazy to wring our hands over Josh McDaniels turning us all into cheaters (I mean seriously?).

End Thread.

baja
02-23-2009, 07:22 AM
For anyone who was wondering whose in charge, think this is a hint?

Pat Bowlen, "This my team and I am taking it away from Mike Shanahan and giving it to Josh McDaniels. "

bowtown
02-23-2009, 07:24 AM
Pat Bowlen, "This my team and I am taking it away from Mike Shanahan and giving it to Josh McDaniels. "

Hilarious! Exactly.

Mediator12
02-23-2009, 07:55 AM
Here is the article on Kubiak:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=3885900


I am still waiting to hear what people have to say about Kubiak getting caught cheating and what that says about DEN's coaches. It is absolutely absurd to think DEN has not cheated or is above reproach for its past behavior or the behavior that its own former coaches continue to cheat.

And if anyone uses the severety argument, get off your high horse. Cheating is cheating. Most teams in the NFL also do what Kubiak does in Minicamp, however, its still Cheating because its against the CBA. Almost everyone has done it sometime, and you all ought to go look in the mirror before being so critical of people with anything but anecdotal or association evidence. Making arguments based on pure assumptions usually ends poorly because the burden of proof is unprovable. It is just an extension of how you feel, not of fact or logic.

montrose
02-23-2009, 08:06 AM
Pat Bowlen, "This my team and I am taking it away from Mike Shanahan and giving it to Josh McDaniels. "

For real. I don't think McDaniels has Shanny's "power" but Bowlen only knows one football operations model (with the exception of the Phillips stint) and I don't think it took long for Pat to prefer to entrust his franchise to McDaniels.

Look back at the Shanny-firing press conference and the thought of bringing in a GM hadn't even crossed his mind. It was about getting a coach. If he wanted a GM, he should've gotten Pioli. Pat hired McDaniels, figured he'd work with the Goodman's and his Assistant Coaches and once Coach Josh came in and said these guys have to go - Pat helped show them the door and give Coach Josh a GM and Director of Pro Personnel to assist him. While Pat may be running the show, Coach Josh is running the team.

Kaylore
02-23-2009, 08:18 AM
For real. I don't think McDaniels has Shanny's "power" but Bowlen only knows one football operations model (with the exception of the Phillips stint) and I don't think it took long for Pat to prefer to entrust his franchise to McDaniels.

Look back at the Shanny-firing press conference and the thought of bringing in a GM hadn't even crossed his mind. It was about getting a coach. If he wanted a GM, he should've gotten Pioli. Pat hired McDaniels, figured he'd work with the Goodman's and his Assistant Coaches and once Coach Josh came in and said these guys have to go - Pat helped show them the door and give Coach Josh a GM and Director of Pro Personnel to assist him. While Pat may be running the show, Coach Josh is running the team.

The only problem is both McDaniels and Xanders have said neither one reports to the other. I think it was more a case of Josh saying "Xanders is more on the same page as me than these other guys. Let's make him a GM." Bowlen didn't want a house divided at this stage and consented. Not to mention its been reported that part of the issue with the Goodman's came from Jeff. Basically Jeff was under-qualified scouts and other staff members weren't happy about it. Jeff wouldn't accept a limited role and was let go and Bowlen knew Jim wouldn't stay under those circumstances and he let him go too.

I think this is more about aligning the mindset of the front office with the coaching staff than about anything else. I don't believe McDaniels is "Shanahan part II."

montrose
02-23-2009, 08:21 AM
I don't believe McDaniels is "Shanahan part II."

I don't so either, that's a very extreme case. I do believe, however, McDaniels will be the chief person selecting who he wants on his team. Xanders and Kidd are there as support, and I think both will do a lot of work, but come draft day I believe it will be McDaniels final call. I just do not believe that Xanders is our Newsome, Pioli, Demitroff, etc.

Tombstone RJ
02-23-2009, 08:24 AM
For real. I don't think McDaniels has Shanny's "power" but Bowlen only knows one football operations model (with the exception of the Phillips stint) and I don't think it took long for Pat to prefer to entrust his franchise to McDaniels.

Look back at the Shanny-firing press conference and the thought of bringing in a GM hadn't even crossed his mind. It was about getting a coach. If he wanted a GM, he should've gotten Pioli. Pat hired McDaniels, figured he'd work with the Goodman's and his Assistant Coaches and once Coach Josh came in and said these guys have to go - Pat helped show them the door and give Coach Josh a GM and Director of Pro Personnel to assist him. While Pat may be running the show, Coach Josh is running the team.

Interesting take on the situation montrose. I think it will take Bowlen a while to wash the taste of Shanny out of his mouth, after all, they were/are close friends and colleages.

But, with the financial situation of the NFL and the USA as a whole, and of Bowlen's team in particular, I see Pat keeping a firmer grip on the team. Xanders is supposedly the GM, great. This should mean that he answers only to Bowlen.

I can see a round table type of management of football operations at Dove Valley where Bowlen, Xanders and McD make all the big decisions together. For example, where to hold training camp, which FAs to pursue, what direction they want the draft to take. Big decisions.

I can see Bowlen often saying in these meetings: "Listen guys, if you can't decide on which FA to bring in, then I'll decide, and trust me, you probably don't want that, so let's all get on the same page here and come to a decision...."

In other words, he's involved, but only and a mediator/consultant and final say, if necessary.

I know that's how I'd manage the team.

montrose
02-23-2009, 08:45 AM
Interesting take on the situation montrose. I think it will take Bowlen a while to wash the taste of Shanny out of his mouth, after all, they were/are close friends and colleages.

But, with the financial situation of the NFL and the USA as a whole, and of Bowlen's team in particular, I see Pat keeping a firmer grip on the team. Xanders is supposedly the GM, great. This should mean that he answers only to Bowlen.

I can see a round table type of management of football operations at Dove Valley where Bowlen, Xanders and McD make all the big decisions together. For example, where to hold training camp, which FAs to pursue, what direction they want the draft to take. Big decisions.

I can see Bowlen often saying in these meetings: "Listen guys, if you can't decide on which FA to bring in, then I'll decide, and trust me, you probably don't want that, so let's all get on the same page here and come to a decision...."

In other words, he's involved, but only and a mediator/consultant and final say, if necessary.

I know that's how I'd manage the team.

I guess none of us will know as we're not at Dove Valley. But I find it interesting that the Goodman's were instrumental in the hiring process, at the McDaniels-hiring press conference we're led to believe Jim is the de facto GM when Pat states he has no interest in hiring a GM, and then weeks before the draft the Goodman's are canned and a young former FSU LB and capologist is named GM. Then a guy from McDaniels former team who had been working for ESPN is brought in as the GM's #2. During the GM's less-than-flattering presser, he verbatim spews out the statement uttered by the new HC during his press conference and nearly every subsequent interview that the Broncos want "smart, tough football players that will play well under pressure."

I don't believe Coach Josh has, or will have, the title that Shanny held and the ability to hire/fire the F.O. guys. But I think Pat has more trust and entrusted more empowerment in his HC than his GM, opposed to teams like Baltimore, Atlanta, KC, and others that put the GM first. I'm not saying this is right or wrong. My personal preference was to get Pioli as GM and McDaniels or Morris as HC. Time is going to tell how this new regime does, but I don't for a second buy that Xanders and Kidd will be "shopping for the groceries" anymore than Sundquist did for Shanny.

Mediator12
02-23-2009, 08:53 AM
I think the whole arguments based on what a guy has done in the past are way off, since they are only part of the process. To say this guy felt this way about a player coming out, without asking him directly is just wrong. The organization as a whole makes the decisions to draft players. Just because an organization drafts a player, does not mean everyone was on board with it. I have heard about some intense arguments about players being drafted in the Draft rooms. Not everyone agrees, because that is the selection.

For example: A draft record for the Goodmans, from the Mane standpoint, is who the team selected during their time at the top. It seems logical, but they did not have final say on who DEN actually selected, so in theory they could have hated who was actually selected, but still reap the reputation benefits of "drafting" a supposedly good selection.

DEN has been extremely good on offense the last few years, but has been awful, plain awful at acquiring Defensive talent through the draft, trade, or FA since the 90's. Sure, they have found a few notable exceptional players in those 10 years like Al Wilson in the draft, Lynch in FA, and Bailey in the trade. However, that is only 3 players in several hundred transactions over that amount of time.

Names that most try not remember anymore of just DL like Daryl Gardener, Anton Palepoi, Kavika Pittman, Mario Fatefehi, Darius Holland, Ellis Johnson, Raylee Johnson, Marco Coleman, Luther Ellis, Lional Dalton, Sam Adams, Mike Myers, Dorsett Davis, Monsanto Pope, Simeon Rice, Demetrin Veal, Kenard Lang, Amon Gordon, Antwan Burton, Courtney Brown, and Alvin McKinley all arrived as stopgaps in the 2000's on the most miserable DL in the NFL for the decade. None of them went on to play anywhere in the NFL after they were released from the Broncos. McKinley and Rice were picked up by other teams and then discarded just as quickly. The only good players were allowed to leave in Pryce, Berry, and Hayward. Not that any of them were elite anymore, but they were unable to be retained as solid starters. That is a microcosm of how the defense was handled at the most important position. No continuity, no playmakers or even difference makers, and well below average talent outside of 2003 when they had three legit DE's, but no DT's to leverage them against.

I for one want to see what a new regime that at least recognizes that playing defense starts by winning battles up front looks like before saying they have no idea about getting talent to play defense. One thing is for sure, the previous regime was awful in acquiring the most important positions on a defense for a decade or so.

**Edit** Lional Dalton Did go on and play from DEN, but no one else from that list did.

DarkHorse30
02-23-2009, 08:59 AM
Kidd was an assistant director of Pro Scouting with NE from 2002-2004. If he had anything to do with bringing Harrison to NE in 2003, I'd say that was a pretty good get.

Tombstone RJ
02-23-2009, 09:01 AM
I guess none of us will know as we're not at Dove Valley. But I find it interesting that the Goodman's were instrumental in the hiring process, at the McDaniels-hiring press conference we're led to believe Jim is the de facto GM when Pat states he has no interest in hiring a GM, and then weeks before the draft the Goodman's are canned and a young former FSU LB and capologist is named GM. Then a guy from McDaniels former team who had been working for ESPN is brought in as the GM's #2. During the GM's less-than-flattering presser, he verbatim spews out the statement uttered by the new HC during his press conference and nearly every subsequent interview that the Broncos want "smart, tough football players that will play well under pressure."

I don't believe Coach Josh has, or will have, the title that Shanny held and the ability to hire/fire the F.O. guys. But I think Pat has more trust and entrusted more empowerment in his HC than his GM, opposed to teams like Baltimore, Atlanta, KC, and others that put the GM first. I'm not saying this is right or wrong. My personal preference was to get Pioli as GM and McDaniels or Morris as HC. Time is going to tell how this new regime does, but I don't for a second buy that Xanders and Kidd will be "shopping for the groceries" anymore than Sundquist did for Shanny.

Bowlen has to be very clear on the power structure of the team. If he's not, then chaos can insue.

If Xanders and McD are not sure who has final say on player personell, then Bowlen has not done his job, period.

There can be no mistake on who has final say. IMO, that person should be Xanders since he IS the GM. He should answer only to Bowlen and yes, Bowlen should be demanding in his expectations of Xanders.

The same can be said for McD. Bowlen should never get a timid or unsure answer from McD on why he called a certain play at a certain time in a game. Or why he wants training camp at UNC and not Dove Valley. These are decisions that McD should make.

Xanders is responsible for bringing in FAs. Bowlen should be able to questions Xanders on each and every FA he brings in, and on how he's structured that FAs contract.

On the flip side, Xanders should not have to answer these questions to McD. It's not McD's responsibility. McD should only be concerened with preparing the team he has for the upcoming season. He can't be expected to worry about who Xanders is pursuing and why.

The key is for both Xanders and McD to be on the same page at all times. This, perhaps, is why the Goodmans had to go. Xanders and McD should be in communication at all times. Their offices should be right next to each other. If McD has a question about a player that he wants to bring in, then he should be able to walk right into Xanders office and say "Hey dude, what do you think about this guy? Can we bring him in?" Then it's up to Xanders to say "Let me do some checking, I'll see what our cap situation is, and if we can make it work, I'll try to get him, but I can't guarentee you anything. Are you sure we NEED this player?" McD says "Yah, we need him. I've been looking at the tape of the guys we have, and I just think that this FA player is a better fit..."

That is a working relationship.

baja
02-23-2009, 09:03 AM
The above post #236 points out just how good an offensive mind Shanny is, to win at the level he won with the defenses he had really does make him a master mind on the O side too bad he was a dunce on the D & ST side.

montrose
02-23-2009, 09:48 AM
Bowlen has to be very clear on the power structure of the team. If he's not, then chaos can insue.

If Xanders and McD are not sure who has final say on player personell, then Bowlen has not done his job, period.

There can be no mistake on who has final say. IMO, that person should be Xanders since he IS the GM. He should answer only to Bowlen and yes, Bowlen should be demanding in his expectations of Xanders.

The same can be said for McD. Bowlen should never get a timid or unsure answer from McD on why he called a certain play at a certain time in a game. Or why he wants training camp at UNC and not Dove Valley. These are decisions that McD should make.

Xanders is responsible for bringing in FAs. Bowlen should be able to questions Xanders on each and every FA he brings in, and on how he's structured that FAs contract.

On the flip side, Xanders should not have to answer these questions to McD. It's not McD's responsibility. McD should only be concerened with preparing the team he has for the upcoming season. He can't be expected to worry about who Xanders is pursuing and why.

The key is for both Xanders and McD to be on the same page at all times. This, perhaps, is why the Goodmans had to go. Xanders and McD should be in communication at all times. Their offices should be right next to each other. If McD has a question about a player that he wants to bring in, then he should be able to walk right into Xanders office and say "Hey dude, what do you think about this guy? Can we bring him in?" Then it's up to Xanders to say "Let me do some checking, I'll see what our cap situation is, and if we can make it work, I'll try to get him, but I can't guarentee you anything. Are you sure we NEED this player?" McD says "Yah, we need him. I've been looking at the tape of the guys we have, and I just think that this FA player is a better fit..."

That is a working relationship.

I agree and would love for that to work out. Unfortunately that structure doesn't appear to be clearly explained according to McDaniels and Xanders somewhat blowing off questions about arguments in terms of picking a player. Saying "there won't be any ties" is unrealistic. There are going to come times when McDaniels wants a player than Xanders doesn't think they can afford. When Xanders sees a draft value that McDaniels doesn't want. What happens then? My money is that McDaniels will get his way 10 out of 10 times.

USMCBladerunner
02-23-2009, 10:04 AM
Whoa... that's gonna leave a mark.

One of many exhibits in this thread where you expose your inability to preventing your fanhood from affecting your rationality. You're seemingly ok with Shanny's cheating because you like him and associated him with the Broncos. McD is still a Patriot in your mind and their cheating is unacceptable. The severities of cheating aren't even close in your mind, but in reality they aren't very different at all. Cheating is cheating. At least Popps has the integrity to acknowledge this.

Being a hypocrit is ok, I guess, but your being so obstinent or obtuse as to not even acknowledge it is what is driving Popps out of his mind.

USMCBladerunner
02-23-2009, 10:07 AM
I think everyone who isn't a Pats fan believes the Patriots cheated. I'd say that Raider and Chief fans probably do agree with my expressed hope that McD doesn't cheat like his boss did. For different reasons than mine, obviously.

Even Pats fans KNOW that their team cheated. At least the ones that are capable of rational thinking about their football team. Not all the world applies the same double standards that you do.

Tombstone RJ
02-23-2009, 10:20 AM
I agree and would love for that to work out. Unfortunately that structure doesn't appear to be clearly explained according to McDaniels and Xanders somewhat blowing off questions about arguments in terms of picking a player. Saying "there won't be any ties" is unrealistic. There are going to come times when McDaniels wants a player than Xanders doesn't think they can afford. When Xanders sees a draft value that McDaniels doesn't want. What happens then? My money is that McDaniels will get his way 10 out of 10 times.

If that is the case, then Bowlen fails as an owner because he has not clearly identified the roles of his employees.

Let this be a paramount lesson to you. Bowlen needs to be clear, firm and fair in how he manages his team. If he's not, it's only a matter of time before someone else is fired, replaced or just becomes a pissed off employee.

Taco John
02-23-2009, 10:26 AM
I agree and would love for that to work out. Unfortunately that structure doesn't appear to be clearly explained according to McDaniels and Xanders somewhat blowing off questions about arguments in terms of picking a player. Saying "there won't be any ties" is unrealistic. There are going to come times when McDaniels wants a player than Xanders doesn't think they can afford. When Xanders sees a draft value that McDaniels doesn't want. What happens then? My money is that McDaniels will get his way 10 out of 10 times.



For my part, I think that you're absolutely right.

Mediator12
02-23-2009, 10:47 AM
If that is the case, then Bowlen fails as an owner because he has not clearly identified the roles of his employees.

Let this be a paramount lesson to you. Bowlen needs to be clear, firm and fair in how he manages his team. If he's not, it's only a matter of time before someone else is fired, replaced or just becomes a pissed off employee.

He may be perfectly clear behind closed doors. That people think the correct organizational structure is revealed to the media and the masses amazes me. No team really gives a job description to the people outside the organization. Now, some people will give a limited view when they are questioned and overstate or understate their actual roles, but the actual way things work is never truly revealed by the franchises. We get glimpses, but we never get to see the process from start to finish.

Bronco Yoda
02-23-2009, 11:13 AM
I get the feeling that Pat is letting things shift around a bit to see where things settle and work out best. It's apparent that Bowlen didn't have a master plan mapped out from soup to nuts first before firing Shanahan and FO. I don't see him drawing lines in the sand and telling these young professional you play here and you play over here and don't think about crossing this line here. Bowlen is use to running things as a partnership. It's going to take time for things to reorganize just so. Let's just hope it's not too much of a bumpy transition.

Popps
02-23-2009, 05:58 PM
He may be perfectly clear behind closed doors. That people think the correct organizational structure is revealed to the media and the masses amazes me. No team really gives a job description to the people outside the organization. Now, some people will give a limited view when they are questioned and overstate or understate their actual roles, but the actual way things work is never truly revealed by the franchises. We get glimpses, but we never get to see the process from start to finish.

Funny, I've made this exact point a couple times as of late. It's damned near impossible to assign credit or blame in a lot of these cases. In Shanahan's case, he was a common denominator for a long time.

Beyond that, critical analysis of front office, executive and scouting personnel isn't like looking at a tape of a running back and giving an opinion. It's a complex situation, particularly (like you said) when the structure itself truly isn't known to the public.

So, there's a lot of hot air blowing and gums flapping around here about the qualifications of our new staff, but it's all just that. Personally, I think Xanders was on our radar for a reason. I like McDaniel and I like Nolan.

As a young coach, I believe McDaniel will rely heavily on those around him. I actually believe Shanahan did a lot of that early on, but that's pure speculation, as well.

SoCalBronco
02-23-2009, 10:11 PM
I agree and would love for that to work out. Unfortunately that structure doesn't appear to be clearly explained according to McDaniels and Xanders somewhat blowing off questions about arguments in terms of picking a player. Saying "there won't be any ties" is unrealistic. There are going to come times when McDaniels wants a player than Xanders doesn't think they can afford. When Xanders sees a draft value that McDaniels doesn't want. What happens then? My money is that McDaniels will get his way 10 out of 10 times.

Indeed.

Bowlen has simply failed on many fronts in this respect. The structure that has been put in place strains even the outer boundaries of credulity. It apparently was not put together with much thought or foresight or planning.

It is almost as if Bowlen is shooting from the hip, not realizing the consequences of each action. The decisions that have been made do not seem to take into account a number of issues.

Initially, Bowlen asserted that he wanted a GM completely seperate from the HC. He decried concentration of power in the HC and spoke out in favor of "change". He also made it clear initially that he greatly valued the work Jim Goodman was doing on the personnel side. He took Mr. Goodman with him as one of his very few trusted "old hands" to interview coaches. He then abruptly fires him and elevates Xanders to GM. It's increasingly clear that McDaniels is simply trying to consolidate his power. Either Bowlen was misrepresenting what he wanted, or he simply is allowing it to happen.

There are substantial competency questions here. There is a cap guy at GM, NO ONE heading up the draft scouting area and the relative equivalent of Bob heading up the pro personnel side. This is not an arrangement that reflects even remote intelligence. It has been said that since Xanders has some experience in terms of talent evaluation (watching film, etc.) then he's alright to run the whole ship and speak as to talent. But its a huge stretch to say that merely because he has some personnel evaluation in his portfolio (its not the dominant item in the portfolio) than it makes it all better. There is something inherently vital about scouting "on the ground". This is something that he has NEVER done. He's never been at the schools, he's never had to talk to prospects and coaches and develop his instincts and his BS meter. There's something inherently important about going from place to place and going to practices and talking to people and enhancing your knowledge beyond simply the game tape. It's observing practice, its observing the player in how he reacts to certain things. These are things that Goodman knew and developed. These are things that are absolutely vital in the talent evaluation process. These are things that Xanders lacks.

There is no justification at all for this arrangement. I do not mind Xanders heading up the cap and contracts section of the FO. However, this does not mean that he's a wonder worker even there. As the Reverend pointed out yesterday, when we had a change in philosophy with regard to the cap, in the sense that we were going to be more prudent, more responsible, looking more for high-value bargains rather than big splashes, this occurred before Xanders arrived. He arrived after the draft and after the initial wave of FA when this new concept had already been applied. In any case, this isn't a huge problem. It's being elevated over others for no justifiable reason.

The bigger problem is that unlike other GMs who might be seriously deficient in one of the three main sections of the FO, he doesn't have trusty, proven deputies in the other two areas. On the Pro Personnel side, we have hired the near equivalent of Bob. We've hired some writer who has not had any meaningful employment in a football capacity in half a decade. This raises serious questions as to his competency, when he can't even get a job as an NFL scout! Now, because he apparently knows the HC from their days at NE (I thought there was going to be clear lines between the HC and FO?), not only is he going to be added to the scouting staff, but he is going to head up the pro personnel side. Consider this for a moment. We are hiring a guy STRAIGHT from ESPN who couldn't even get a job for FIVE years with ANYONE as simply a REGULAR scout, much less the DIRECTOR of PRO PERSONNEL and who had worked with Arizona and Cleveland in the capacity most similar to that which he will now be in when they were absolute ****. He's clearly unqualified. It's not even a close question. We biatched at Shanny's FA moves. Not only is this not an improvement, its a clear DECLINE FROM SHANNY AS A PERSONNEL GUY.

In many ways the current arrangement with regard to the college scouting side is even worse. There is currently NO ONE heading up that department. There is a void there. There's no one to guide Xanders. There's no one who can intelligently arbitrate among the various college scouts. The depth of Xanders's knowledge (or lack thereof) in this area and his lack of actual day to day scouting experience makes it hard for him to rationally choose one scout over another on a given issue. There's NO ONE THERE GUIDING THE SHIP. We are the ONLY TEAM IN THE LEAGUE WITH THIS PROBLEM. The draft is TWO MONTHS AWAY and there is a void there. There is NO scouting director. There's no trusty lieutenant to spoonfeed Xanders through his first draft. It is CRIMINAL that Bowlen allowed this situation to develop on the draft side and the FA side.

This is nothing less than a cluster****. This arrangement is haphazard and negligent. It's going to almost certainly bring harm....substantial harm to this team. It's not well thought out. Are they serious? We're going to have Bob running the FA side and have NO ONE steering the college scouting side with the draft approaching.

Even if Xanders is only a puppet to McDaniels (which I agree with you that he is), McDaniels suffers from the same problem so far as pro and college evaluations go. He is not qualified to make these determinations. He needs a trusty, proven, experienced and well rounded deputy on each side to assist him and its not there. It's not there for either of them, so it doesnt really matter whether either is in charge. They've put in place, and Bowlen has endorsed, a structure that invites failure. They are INVITING failure.

Bronco Yoda
02-23-2009, 11:52 PM
Maybe Pat's tired of holding the record of longest run without a top 10 pick in the draft.

Popps
02-24-2009, 12:04 AM
Xanders graduated from Florida State with a bachelor's degree in business management and a master's degree in business administration. He was on four bowl-winning teams with Bobby Bowden's Seminoles.

In 14 seasons in Atlanta, he worked with the Falcons in a variety of capacities, including player personnel, coaching, salary cap management, information technology and business management.

Doesn't sound like such a clueless hick to me.

A former player with a vast array of front office experience from the ground level on up?

No wonder Shanahan brought him in.