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ZONA
02-21-2009, 01:10 AM
As more and more teams in the NFL are switching to the 3-4 defense, NT's are really going to become, if not already, a very highly sought after commodity. And it's not as if the college ranks are churning high quality NT's out every year either. The top 1 or 2 NT's will probably go in the top 10 every year moving forward IMO. Either the Broncos are gonna need to move up and get that top rated NT in the top 10 (maybe even top 5) or they will have to settle for that 2nd level guy and hope that he turns out to be the winning lottery ticket. We all hope the Broncos improve, and as they do, their draft order will only get lower. We're drafting 12 and this might be our best shot at moving up and getting a true top rated NT in the draft. The only other thing I can think of would be to trade our 1st round pick this year for a 1st and 3rd next year, giving us 2 picks in the first round next year and 2 in the 3rd. If you are holding one eye on the future, that doesn't sound like a bad deal. You give something up this year but you cash in next year. Not only does the extra pick allow you to move way up if you want to, or you could stay put and have 3 picks in the first two rounds and 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. That sounds sweet to me.

And you can forget signing a top rated NT in FA. If you think they are hard to come by in the draft, proven dominant NT's in the NFL will be locked up.

So, IMO, we move up now to get Raji or you trade our 1st or 2nd round pick for picks next year so that we can double up on our top picks and have alot of bargain room next year.

I think the dominant NT is they anchor point for our new defense. It's important we find a dominant NT in the next 2 years. So what is our best solution to achieve that?

SouthStndJunkie
02-21-2009, 01:16 AM
Denver would probably be best off signing a veteran stop gap NT to get by for a year or two....and then they need to take a few big boy 3-4 NT types on day two of the draft and hope to hit the jackpot with one of them.

Plenty of good NTs have been found in the mid-later rounds of the draft.

I realize the importantance of the NT in the 3-4....but we can't mortgage the future to move up and take Raji in the draft.

ZONA
02-21-2009, 01:38 AM
Denver would probably be best off signing a veteran stop gap NT to get by for a year or two....and then they need to take a few big boy 3-4 NT types on day two of the draft and hope to hit the jackpot with one of them.

Plenty of good NTs have been found in the mid-later rounds of the draft.

I realize the importantance of the NT in the 3-4....but we can't mortgage the future to move up and take Raji in the draft.


Well I wouldn't call moving up 5 spots (give or take a spot) mortgaging the future. We probably would only need to give up (of course our 1st this year) a 2nd round pick. Yeah, you lose that 2nd this year but you are getting your NT. If somebody said to me (and if I was the coach) that it was a guarantee that if we gave up our 1st and 2nd this year, we would land Raji, I would do it in a heart beat. 2nd round picks turning out to be starters is not an automatic thing. And can you give me the names of these "plenty" of good NT's drafted in the middle rounds in the past 2 years? I would hardly say there have been "plenty".

Your hoping to hit the jackpot with a later round NT. That's the whole point of this thread. That's called the Broncos need some luck if that's their plan. I have alot more confidence that Raji will turn out to be a good NT that I do some guy we snag in the 3rd or 4th round.

SouthStndJunkie
02-21-2009, 02:05 AM
Well I wouldn't call moving up 5 spots (give or take a spot) mortgaging the future. We probably would only need to give up (of course our 1st this year) a 2nd round pick. Yeah, you lose that 2nd this year but you are getting your NT. If somebody said to me (and if I was the coach) that it was a guarantee that if we gave up our 1st and 2nd this year, we would land Raji, I would do it in a heart beat. 2nd round picks turning out to be starters is not an automatic thing. And can you give me the names of these "plenty" of good NT's drafted in the middle rounds in the past 2 years? I would hardly say there have been "plenty".

Your hoping to hit the jackpot with a later round NT. That's the whole point of this thread. That's called the Broncos need some luck if that's their plan. I have alot more confidence that Raji will turn out to be a good NT that I do some guy we snag in the 3rd or 4th round.

You asked everyone for their best solution....so I gave you mine.

I think Raji could go as high as #4.

Would I like to have Raji....sure....but he could very well end up going in the top five.

Stand pat and if he falls into range at around 7 or 8, then you can start to think about trading up for him.

Not sure where I said that good NTs have been drafted in the later rounds....in the last 2 years.....I said that plenty of good ones have been found in the later rounds.

I am not going to get into a lengthy debate with you about this, you were seeking opinions, and I gave mine.

ScottXray
02-21-2009, 09:19 AM
You asked everyone for their best solution....so I gave you mine.

I think Raji could go as high as #4.

Would I like to have Raji....sure....but he could very well end up going in the top five.

Stand pat and if he falls into range at around 7 or 8, then you can start to think about trading up for him.

Not sure where I said that good NTs have been drafted in the later rounds....in the last 2 years.....I said that plenty of good ones have been found in the later rounds.

I am not going to get into a lengthy debate with you about this, you were seeking opinions, and I gave mine.


We have so MANY needs right now that moving up is not any way to go.

As far as Raji.....1st round picks (no matter Where they go ...top 5, top 10, bottom 10) are NOT guaranteed impact players. Jarvis Moss ring a bell?
How about 6th round picks...Terrell Davis, Tom Brady?

The draft is as much of a crap shoot as anything else. Save your picks and draft for your system as you can.

Gcver2ver3
02-21-2009, 09:53 AM
As more and more teams in the NFL are switching to the 3-4 defense, NT's are really going to become, if not already, a very highly sought after commodity. And it's not as if the college ranks are churning high quality NT's out every year either. The top 1 or 2 NT's will probably go in the top 10 every year moving forward IMO. Either the Broncos are gonna need to move up and get that top rated NT in the top 10 (maybe even top 5) or they will have to settle for that 2nd level guy and hope that he turns out to be the winning lottery ticket. We all hope the Broncos improve, and as they do, their draft order will only get lower. We're drafting 12 and this might be our best shot at moving up and getting a true top rated NT in the draft. The only other thing I can think of would be to trade our 1st round pick this year for a 1st and 3rd next year, giving us 2 picks in the first round next year and 2 in the 3rd. If you are holding one eye on the future, that doesn't sound like a bad deal. You give something up this year but you cash in next year. Not only does the extra pick allow you to move way up if you want to, or you could stay put and have 3 picks in the first two rounds and 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. That sounds sweet to me.

And you can forget signing a top rated NT in FA. If you think they are hard to come by in the draft, proven dominant NT's in the NFL will be locked up.

So, IMO, we move up now to get Raji or you trade our 1st or 2nd round pick for picks next year so that we can double up on our top picks and have alot of bargain room next year.

I think the dominant NT is they anchor point for our new defense. It's important we find a dominant NT in the next 2 years. So what is our best solution to achieve that?


First off...many aren't sold that Raji is a 3-4 NT to begin with...

He has the weight but not the height so MOVING UP to get him would be a big risk...

you don't have to draft top 10 to find a good NT...expect a Grady Jackson type to get us by while we develop some of our latter round drafted NTs....

you may not think so, but trading up 5 spots would be mortgaging our future...we have a lot of needs and moving up in the 1st round is costly...

we'll be okay standing pat at #12...or even moving down...

SoDak Bronco
02-21-2009, 09:57 AM
I think we stand pat, we can't afford to blow up our draft choices to move up for any one guy. Raji isn't a perfect NT space eater anyway. I hope we can get E brown or maybe Cushing at #12. If raji drops i'd be all for him coming to denver too.

SouthStndJunkie
02-21-2009, 10:12 AM
We have so MANY needs right now that moving up is not any way to go.

As far as Raji.....1st round picks (no matter Where they go ...top 5, top 10, bottom 10) are NOT guaranteed impact players. Jarvis Moss ring a bell?
How about 6th round picks...Terrell Davis, Tom Brady?

The draft is as much of a crap shoot as anything else. Save your picks and draft for your system as you can.

I agree....I like where we are sitting at 12.

My original point was that trading up to get Raji would cost too much....the only way it would even be feasible is if he dropped to the 8-9 range....even then, I am not all for it.

We need that second round pick this year. We need as many picks as we can get....especially after releasing all the players that we have in the last week.

illbroncsfn
02-21-2009, 11:21 AM
First off...many aren't sold that Raji is a 3-4 NT to begin with...

He has the weight but not the height so MOVING UP to get him would be a big risk...

you don't have to draft top 10 to find a good NT...expect a Grady Jackson type to get us by while we develop some of our latter round drafted NTs....

you may not think so, but trading up 5 spots would be mortgaging our future...we have a lot of needs and moving up in the 1st round is costly...

we'll be okay standing pat at #12...or even moving down...

I agree w/the prevailing opinion that Raji is much more of a penetrating UT than a NT in a 3-4- could he do it- yes, but that is not playing to his strengths.

If Nolan changes his typical 3-4 philosophy to a 1 gap penetrating style then Raji would be a great target.

Looking in the later rounds NT should be a target- I do fear Ron Brace as I believe he has a large bust factor...

cutthemdown
02-21-2009, 11:23 AM
Broncos do need some luck. A late round pick turning into a superstar would be great. Especially at a position like Linebacker or Dline.

BroncoMan4ever
02-21-2009, 11:37 AM
Raji is not a NT, people need to quit calling him one.

ZONA
02-21-2009, 12:08 PM
I agree w/the prevailing opinion that Raji is much more of a penetrating UT than a NT in a 3-4- could he do it- yes, but that is not playing to his strengths.

If Nolan changes his typical 3-4 philosophy to a 1 gap penetrating style then Raji would be a great target.

Looking in the later rounds NT should be a target- I do fear Ron Brace as I believe he has a large bust factor...

Well if you don't want a NT that can penetrate, I wouldn't even draft a NT then. Just sign the biggest slab of beef you find once the final rounds are over and just ask him to try and not get moved off the line.............sheesh.

I don't think Raji is the greatest NT since sliced bread either. The best NT prospect in the draft I do think he is (god, that sounded like Yoda). Hilarious!

I actually am wanting to double up on 1st rounds next year and adding an additional 2nd or 3rd pick this year, how ever that would work out. For example, if Detroit wanted our 12th this year, we would take their 1st next year as well as their 2nd this year. That would give us 2 second round picks (one of them just one pick from the last 1st rounder taken). I'm not entirely sure Detroit would go for something like that but sometimes teams want a certain guy and if that guy is still on the board at 12, you never know. It's not like it has never been done before. Anyway, I would love that scenario the best. We are truly rebuilding now and I would be willing to give a little now to cash in just one year later.

The Joker
02-21-2009, 12:20 PM
Next year's DT class is awesome.

I expect McCoy to be the first one taken, Cody could well be there when Denver drafts. Likely in a similiar position to where we are picking this year.

Even if not, there'll be great quality in that position next year.

I say we sign Fields or Watson as NT, and Grady Jackson on a one year deal to share the load. Next year we get our long term solution at the spot.

Carmelo15
02-21-2009, 02:10 PM
Gabe Watson if our best solution for NT. He'll cost us a 3rd rounder but it'll be well worth it in my opinion.

SonOfLe-loLang
02-21-2009, 03:47 PM
I wouldn't mind if Raji got caught smokin a doob or something so that he might drop to 12.

Tombstone RJ
02-21-2009, 04:05 PM
Well I wouldn't call moving up 5 spots (give or take a spot) mortgaging the future. We probably would only need to give up (of course our 1st this year) a 2nd round pick. Yeah, you lose that 2nd this year but you are getting your NT. If somebody said to me (and if I was the coach) that it was a guarantee that if we gave up our 1st and 2nd this year, we would land Raji, I would do it in a heart beat. 2nd round picks turning out to be starters is not an automatic thing. And can you give me the names of these "plenty" of good NT's drafted in the middle rounds in the past 2 years? I would hardly say there have been "plenty".

Your hoping to hit the jackpot with a later round NT. That's the whole point of this thread. That's called the Broncos need some luck if that's their plan. I have alot more confidence that Raji will turn out to be a good NT that I do some guy we snag in the 3rd or 4th round.

I agree. Broncos already have a late round possible NT in Powell. This defense needs to be built from the line back. Basic, fundamental talent up front to maximize the LBs speed and versitility. Combine that with two big safetys in Barrett and Woodyard and one shut down CB who can tackle in Bailey, then I think you got the makings of a hard nosed defense.

ayjackson
02-21-2009, 04:18 PM
Raji is not a NT, people need to quit calling him one.

He is what you make him. Are you saying he isn't strong enough to play the nose? Just because he played off nose in college, doesn't mean squat.

BroncoMan4ever
02-21-2009, 09:39 PM
Gabe Watson if our best solution for NT. He'll cost us a 3rd rounder but it'll be well worth it in my opinion.

i could live with that trade

lostknight
02-21-2009, 10:10 PM
I think the actual appreciable value of the 12 slot is great. Top fove you end up having insane contracts with variable ability. There is no doubt in my mind that the Broncos number 1 pick last year was the best pick for the money in the first round now. Our number two pick didn't turn out all that bad either.

strafen
02-21-2009, 10:49 PM
As more and more teams in the NFL are switching to the 3-4 defense, NT's are really going to become, if not already, a very highly sought after commodity. And it's not as if the college ranks are churning high quality NT's out every year either. The top 1 or 2 NT's will probably go in the top 10 every year moving forward IMO. Either the Broncos are gonna need to move up and get that top rated NT in the top 10 (maybe even top 5) or they will have to settle for that 2nd level guy and hope that he turns out to be the winning lottery ticket. We all hope the Broncos improve, and as they do, their draft order will only get lower. We're drafting 12 and this might be our best shot at moving up and getting a true top rated NT in the draft. The only other thing I can think of would be to trade our 1st round pick this year for a 1st and 3rd next year, giving us 2 picks in the first round next year and 2 in the 3rd. If you are holding one eye on the future, that doesn't sound like a bad deal. You give something up this year but you cash in next year. Not only does the extra pick allow you to move way up if you want to, or you could stay put and have 3 picks in the first two rounds and 5 picks in the first 3 rounds. That sounds sweet to me.

And you can forget signing a top rated NT in FA. If you think they are hard to come by in the draft, proven dominant NT's in the NFL will be locked up.

So, IMO, we move up now to get Raji or you trade our 1st or 2nd round pick for picks next year so that we can double up on our top picks and have alot of bargain room next year.

I think the dominant NT is they anchor point for our new defense. It's important we find a dominant NT in the next 2 years. So what is our best solution to achieve that?
That's true. I totally agree
We can get a LB and just about any player on defense from FA, but I think we have something special on Raji at #12 from the draft. He's the guy for the job 8')

ZONA
02-21-2009, 10:55 PM
I actually think the Broncos would only need to move up to pick 8 to snag Raji. Yeah that's top 10 but 8 isn't like it's even close to top 5 money. And I only think we would have to give up one pick to move up 4 spots (probably a 3rd). If we had to move up to top 5 then yeah, that might be too much because we probably would have to give up a 2nd plus the payout on the contract. I changed my tune on that. I would not go higher then 8 to snag Raji.

This is how I see it on draft day so we would need to move up to 8 to snag him in front of Greenbay.

1. Detroit Lions: Jason Smith, OT (Baylor)
2. St. Louis Rams: Eugene Monroe, OT (Virginia)
3. Kansas City Chiefs: Matt Stafford, QB (Georgia)
4.Seattle Seahawks: Michael Crabtree, WR (Texas Tech)
5. Cleveland Browns: Aaron Curry, OLB (Wake Forest)
6. Cincinnati Bengal: Andre Smith, OT (Alabama)
7. Oakland Raiders: Jeremy Maclin, WR (Missouri)
8. Jacksonville Jaguars: Michael Oher, OT (Ole’ Miss)
9. Green Bay Packers: BJ Raji, DT (Boston College)
10. San Francisco 49ers: Brian Orakpo, DE/OLB (Texas)
11. Buffalo Bills: Everette Brown, DE/OLB (Florida State)
12. Broncos pick

SoCalBronco
02-21-2009, 11:44 PM
Raji is not a NT, people need to quit calling him one.

People should not be so dismissive of Raji in this role. As Montrose has noted, Mike Nolan has often used an Under variation of the 3-4, where the NT is not playing head up on the center, but is rather shaded to the weakside, almost asking, by alignment to be doubled by the OC and LG in order to prevent penetration in the weakside A gap. In that respect, the disruptive talents of a B.J. Raji are not stunted as is the case with a usual 3-4 NT. It's not like he's asked to read, via the center's technique, to which side of the mid-line the play will be run to and then get into that A gap. He's certainly powerful enough to draw this double team in the weakside A gap and that would open things up for ILB's. I would feel confident that he would be used in this way and in other ways, within the 3-4. There are many ways one can effectively use a talented NT, other than to have him simply try to control both A gaps.

Even in the 3-4, Denver can make Raji a force to be reckoned with as a pass rusher against a weak center. Denver can shift both ends inside, over the guards, instead of the tackles, and obviously a shift would be made with the ILBs outside, to a position over the tackles rather than the guards, which would prevent the NT from being double teamed by any guard. This variation of the 34 is commonly known as 39.

It is very important that we get someone of Raji's caliber at the very heart of the defense. Not unlike a franchise QB, a big time NT is important. Like any team, Denver has only limited resources because of the salary cap. We are in a constant struggle to apportion resources in an efficient way. The question every team wrestles with is how to be great on both sides of the ball, with limited resources? Denver has already elected to apportion the lion's share of those resources on the offensive side of the ball. We cannot become a great defense, then, by virtue of infusing it with financial resources. So then, how can a great or good defense be made? Obviously, it would be true that as a general statement that we have to be lucky in the draft and our FA investments have to give good bang for the buck since we are restricted in that area with the offense having so much of the financial pie. Inherent in any plan of success for the defensive side of the ball in this situation where resources have been allocated this way is that the very few big contracts/ big draft investments that we can give to the defense have to be given to the pivot points of the defense, because it is only at these spots can they cover up the other weaknesses. It doesn't work in reverse. You give the few big resources you have to the pivot points and color in the rest of the defense with whatever you have left over. For the 3-4, it is at NT and OLB. We can cover up alot of problems in the secondary with pass rushing OLBs (look at Pittsburgh..quick..... name an elite DB on Pittsburgh not named Polamalu......thats what I thought) and we can cover up run weaknesses in the front seven with a dominant interior lineman. We can't say that with an ILB or S or CB or DE in this defensive style. A Rey Maualuga, even if he weren't as reckless and underachieving and overrated as he is, would not provide similar value to the defense as Raji would, just because it's not a pivot point for the defense. It's not what makes everything else go.

Broncos_OTM
02-21-2009, 11:54 PM
First off...many aren't sold that Raji is a 3-4 NT to begin with...

He has the weight but not the height so MOVING UP to get him would be a big risk...

you don't have to draft top 10 to find a good NT...expect a Grady Jackson type to get us by while we develop some of our latter round drafted NTs....

you may not think so, but trading up 5 spots would be mortgaging our future...we have a lot of needs and moving up in the 1st round is costly...

we'll be okay standing pat at #12...or even moving down...
Look at the average nose tackle in this league IN a 3-4 and youll see 6-1 is ok. The problem is he moveable. if he cant hold the line agaisnt 2 sometimes three guys then it would be a bad choice.

Tombstone RJ
02-22-2009, 02:39 PM
Was watching the combine on nfln and Mayock loves Raji and introduced Raji as a 3-4 delineman with the possibility to play in a 4-3 as well.

So, those who think Raji is not a 3-4 guy, needs to explain that to Mayock.

ZONA
02-22-2009, 08:28 PM
Look at the average nose tackle in this league IN a 3-4 and youll see 6-1 is ok. The problem is he moveable. if he cant hold the line agaisnt 2 sometimes three guys then it would be a bad choice.

Raji is hard to move. He is lower to the ground at 6-1 (not too short but not tall) and is strong. I think asking a NT to try and hold up against a double team is lagit but I think when you say 3 guys, that's going over board. Who in this league right now can stand there and not be moved while three 300+ pound strong linemen are pushing you back? Answer: Nobody. Even on most double teams you hope your NT can hold the point for a second or 2 before giving some ground. You know, offensive linemen in this league get paid too.

We'll see how it plays out. I see us having a real shot at him because I think KC is not going to draft another DL in the 1st since they did last year. They need a QB. If they pass on Raji, I see him falling all the way down to GB with the 9th pick. I would be on the phone right now with Jacksonville if I were Denver. Pick their brain and try and see what they might want in return before they are on the clock and getting nervous as the time winds down.