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brncs_fan
02-20-2009, 03:30 PM
Broncos plan to move Moss to linebacker

Defensive end Jarvis Moss will be taking a couple of steps back.

Now that the Broncos will use more of a 3-4 defensive alignment, Moss, the Broncos' first-round pick in the 2007 draft, has learned he'll be moving to outside linebacker in Mike Nolan's new scheme.

"They feel like it could be good for Jarvis, because he hasn't put on the weight you would expect a defensive end to have. And he's athletic enough to do it," Moss' agent, Pat Dye Jr., said Friday. "My sense is he'll be an outside linebacker and a big pass-rusher primarily."

The team previously had alerted Elvis Dumervil to the possibility of making the transition from a down lineman to a stand-up defender.

Moss has vowed to add 10 pounds this offseason while working with a nutritionist and strength coaches in Gainesville, Fla. But he has had difficulty moving north of the 255 pounds he carried at season's end.

The key challenge for Moss in his new position will be proving he can backpedal and turn in coverage. He has dropped periodically in zone-blitz situations in the past.

"We actually did some of that before the draft because the 3-4 teams obviously didn't see him as a defensive end in a 3-4 scheme," Dye said. "So the 3-4 teams put him through linebacker drills and he did fine.

"He's plenty athletic. My hope was at this point he'd weigh 265-270 and be a prototypical defensive end, but that hasn't happened. So this could kind of be a rebirth for him."

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/feb/20/bronocs-plan-move-moss-linebacker/

DarkHorse
02-20-2009, 03:33 PM
This just indicates that he's on borrowed time with this team. If he doesn't display an ability to play OLB he'll be gone as he's provided the team with nothing at Defensive End.

wolf754life
02-20-2009, 03:38 PM
bust-o-han, goodmans signed off on him and tim "clam chowder" crowder.

BroncoMan4ever
02-20-2009, 03:42 PM
Elvis is going to beat him out for the OLB spot and Moss will be looking for work next offseason.

colonelbeef
02-20-2009, 03:43 PM
bust-o-han, goodmans signed off on him and tim "clam chowder" crowder.

what are your thoughts on Cutler, Marshall, Dumervil, Sheffler, Kuper, Hillis, Torain, Royal, Clady, Larsen, and Barrett?

snowspot66
02-20-2009, 03:46 PM
Wolf give it a ****ing rest.

Dedhed
02-20-2009, 03:48 PM
OLB in a 3-4 is Moss' best chance. He's got a better chance of slimming down to be more athletic than he does at bulking up to try and hold the point.

They may not work out, but I'm a fan of both Moss and Dumervil as 3-4 OLBs.

Archer81
02-20-2009, 03:48 PM
bust-o-han, goodmans signed off on him and tim "clam chowder" crowder.


You have problems man. Shanahan is gone. Grow up.


:Broncos:

snowspot66
02-20-2009, 03:50 PM
Moss is under contract for a few more years. May as well give him a shot.

dbfan4life
02-20-2009, 03:50 PM
Wolf give it a ****ing rest.

I know. He bitched when Shanny was here and is still bitching now that he's gone!

elsid13
02-20-2009, 03:55 PM
So the LB corp could be Doom(Woodyard), Williams, Larson, Moss (Bailey)

(Passing Downs)

Popps
02-20-2009, 03:59 PM
Moss looks like a failed experiment. I'm not really sure why he'd pan out at LB in a 3/4. He's got no pass-rush moves at all. He's half the pass-rusher Elvis is.

That said, it's worth a shot. Throw him in there during camp and see if anything sparks. If not, get this guy out of my face.

HEAV
02-20-2009, 04:00 PM
Moss and Doom playing OLB with Bailey and DJ @ inside... Holy F**K we are going to need 3 solid D-lineman form the draft/Free agency.

skpac1001
02-20-2009, 04:04 PM
I actually like Moss at LB much more then I ever did at 4-3 DE. I wouldn't be surprised if he is better in space and against the run then Doom at LB.

telluride
02-20-2009, 04:07 PM
"They feel like it could be good for Jarvis, because he hasn't put on the weight you would expect a defensive end to have. And he's athletic enough to do it," Moss' agent, Pat Dye Jr., said Friday.

Well, why the f*&k not? The guy knows he has to get bigger to get better, and he simply decides not to. Worse, the training staff doesn't do anything about it. I swear we should have bounced the entire weight and training and medical staff this offseason, while we were cleaning house.

DenverBrit
02-20-2009, 04:08 PM
bust-o-han, goodmans signed off on him and tim "clam chowder" crowder.

Stop b#tching, Moss was a Bates pick.

telluride
02-20-2009, 04:08 PM
Sigh. Okay, I have that out of my system now.

BroncoInferno
02-20-2009, 04:09 PM
Well, why the f*&k not? The guy knows he has to get bigger to get better, and he simply decides not to.

No, he has worked hard to put on weight. The fact is some people simply have trouble packing on weight, the same as there are some who have trouble keeping it off.

Worse, the training staff doesn't do anything about it. I swear we should have bounced the entire weight and training and medical staff this offseason, while we were cleaning house.

Because Jarvis Moss didn't pack weight, most likely due to physiological reasons?

TheDave
02-20-2009, 04:11 PM
Duh... Did anyone actually think he could play DE in a 3-4?

PRBronco
02-20-2009, 04:19 PM
I'm expecting Moss to get some picks this year, the QB won't see him since he essentially disappears when viewed from the side.

Ba dum cha!

BroncoInferno
02-20-2009, 04:21 PM
I'm expecting Moss to get some picks this year, the QB won't see him since he essentially disappears when viewed from the side.

Ba dum cha!

He'll be the first player in history with double digit sacks and double digit INTs in the same season ;D

DomCasual
02-20-2009, 04:21 PM
Well, as long as his agent says he'll have no problems with it...::)

CoBear23
02-20-2009, 04:24 PM
Although I'm not sold that Moss can play OLB in a 3-4 he is a much better fit than trying to fit Dumervil back there. Doom looked lost when he was asked to drop back in zone coverage last year, he also lacks the speed and stamina needed to play at a consistent level at that position.

The Joker
02-20-2009, 04:27 PM
Let him and Elvis battle it out in camp to play JACK , hopefully one steps up.

I like DJ and Larsen in the middle.

We need a SOLB though.

And some safeties.

And a corner.

Defensive line, too.

http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/Kinnear.jpg

PRBronco
02-20-2009, 04:27 PM
Although I'm not sold that Moss can play OLB in a 3-4 he is a much better fit than trying to fit Dumervil back there. Doom looked lost when he was asked to drop back in zone coverage last year, he also lacks the speed and stamina needed to play at a consistent level at that position.

Yeah, I'm a firm believer that if there was even a sliver of hope for Elvis as a 3-4 OLB, someone would have scooped him and his 20 sacks (or whatever he had as a senior) up long before we took him in the 5th.

BroncoInferno
02-20-2009, 04:29 PM
Yeah, I'm a firm believer that if there was even a sliver of hope for Elvis as a 3-4 OLB, someone would have scooped him and his 20 sacks (or whatever he had as a senior) up long before we took him in the 5th.

What does that prove? No 3-4 team drafted James Harrison at all.

Inkana7
02-20-2009, 04:30 PM
If he plays anywhere in this D, it's at OLB. Hopefully he can make something of it, I always had a soft spot for Moss.

chrisp
02-20-2009, 04:38 PM
ALL of our defensive ends took a massive step backwards this year. It was such a uniform regression accross the board that I'm not entirely prepared to believe it was all down to individuals and nothing to do with the apalling coaching.

Not to say that Moss and Crowder in particular don't have the 'bust' label hanging over their heads - I think they both have to show us all something next year or they could be done, but I don't think its utterly unreasonable to hope that they will.

I would expect all three of Moss, Crowder and Dumervil to be moved to OLB. One of the three should take to it at the very least!

BroncoMan4ever
02-20-2009, 04:45 PM
Let him and Elvis battle it out in camp to play JACK , hopefully one steps up.

I like DJ and Larsen in the middle.

We need a SOLB though.

And some safeties.

And a corner.

Defensive line, too.

http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/Smileys/Lots_O_Smileys/Kinnear.jpg

i just got sad with this post.

on a different note. where the hell is Woodyard going to play. he seems too light to play any of the LB positions in a 3-4, and supposedly McDaniels and Nolan have him in their plans for the defense. i can't think of where he will fit in.

broncofan7
02-20-2009, 04:53 PM
Moss= Woodley
Doom= Harrison

SUPERBOWL!

sigh......

montrose
02-20-2009, 04:53 PM
I expect him to be given a look at WOLB behind Dumervil and if he can't make the transition he'll be gone. He could be worked in as a backup at SOLB as well seeing he showed a little bit of ability containing the outside.

Garcia Bronco
02-20-2009, 05:05 PM
have you guys considered Moss' pro nuts have not droped yet?

BroncoInferno
02-20-2009, 05:07 PM
have you guys considered Moss' pro nuts have not droped yet?

People have no patience these day. There are countless examples of players who did not do much there first two seasons and then became quality players.

Garcia Bronco
02-20-2009, 05:23 PM
People have no patience these day. There are countless examples of players who did not do much there first two seasons and then became quality players.

You are absolutely right. That's why we have players leave here and have success elsewhere. There is just no patience.

Kaylore
02-20-2009, 05:25 PM
Moss might bust, but at least with this coaching staff I can be certain if he does get cut it's because he isn't a pro-calibre player and not because our defensive staff can't develop him.

Arkansas Bronco
02-20-2009, 05:25 PM
I actually like Moss at LB much more then I ever did at 4-3 DE. I wouldn't be surprised if he is better in space and against the run then Doom at LB.

I agree I think this is the best move for him Doom is far better with his hands but Moss is more athletic. I always hated us taking him for a DE cause I didnt think he could do it but I do think he could play OLB (hopefully strong side) in a 3-4.

nickademus
02-20-2009, 05:38 PM
Elvis is going to beat him out for the OLB spot and Moss will be looking for work next offseason.

I doubt it what will most likely happen is he will get his shot and Elvis will get traded before the draft for additional picks.

BroncoMan4ever
02-20-2009, 05:43 PM
I doubt it what will most likely happen is he will get his shot and Elvis will get traded before the draft for additional picks.

if we trade Elvis i will be very surprised. he is the only person on the roster who has shown the capablity of being able to rush the passer, and if we leave the rush LB spot to Moss by default, because Doom isn't there to keep his starting job, we are ****ed.

socalorado
02-20-2009, 05:53 PM
Moss might bust, but at least with this coaching staff I can be certain if he does get cut it's because he isn't a pro-calibre player and not because our defensive staff can't develop him.

Yeah, DREK convinced me to give Moss another year before i say he really is a bust. Hes been through too many coaches and schemes to just give up on him. He was listed during his draft as a player that could be very productive as a OLB in a 3-4, so this is his year, if NOLAN cant get this kid to be productinve and show signs of serious improvement, then NO ONE CAN.

bpc
02-20-2009, 05:58 PM
Why? That's the value of the 3-4. Value falls round after round.

James Harrison = UDFA.

Nuff said.

bpc
02-20-2009, 05:59 PM
Yeah, I'm a firm believer that if there was even a sliver of hope for Elvis as a 3-4 OLB, someone would have scooped him and his 20 sacks (or whatever he had as a senior) up long before we took him in the 5th.

Why? That's the value of the 3-4. Value falls round after round.

James Harrison = UDFA.

Nuff said.

Natedog24
02-20-2009, 06:01 PM
I'm very curious to see how Denver's former DE's work out at OLB. Isn't Moss faster then Dumervil, I think Moss could be a better OLB then Doom.

PRBronco
02-20-2009, 06:13 PM
Why? That's the value of the 3-4. Value falls round after round.

James Harrison = UDFA.

Nuff said.

I don't think I'm following you here, please elaborate?

DBroncos4life
02-20-2009, 06:18 PM
Or we could skip a risk and trade for peppers :)

Punisher
02-20-2009, 06:18 PM
yes!

wolf754life
02-20-2009, 06:29 PM
shanahan was right to draft this great player and to give up a premium third round selection.

in mike we trusted, and in mike we failed.

The Joker
02-20-2009, 06:34 PM
shanahan was right to draft this great player and to give up a premium third round selection.

in mike we trusted, and in mike we failed.

I can only hope you keep posting stuff like this to wind people up.

If so, fair enough.

If not, you're a truly pathetic excuse for a fan.

wolf754life
02-20-2009, 06:37 PM
I can only hope you keep posting stuff like this to wind people up.

If so, fair enough.

If not, you're a truly pathetic excuse for a fan.

you don't think it winds me up when i check the board and all I see is fanboys bitching and moaning about shanahan and his glory days?

you don't think winds me up when we have the worst, most gutless defense and inept special teams and horrible coaching/front office and these tools defend it and call our new coach, our owner, and our new front office people out even though they haven't done anything yet.

its getting old watching the whole board act like 6th graders.

Shanny had you all brainwashed, its really sad, well pat woke up and pat shook it up! deal with reality you fan boy slugs........

DBroncos4life
02-20-2009, 06:37 PM
I can only hope you keep posting stuff like this to wind people up.

If so, fair enough.

If not, you're a truly pathetic excuse for a fan.

The worst thing ever happen to this thing was Mike getting fired. He has this offseason to play his little game with then poof he is history.

wolf754life
02-20-2009, 06:39 PM
The worst thing ever happen to this thing was Mike getting fired. He has this offseason to play his little game with then poof he is history.

way to come strong, great opinion, your the man.

orange crusher
02-20-2009, 06:39 PM
on a different note. where the hell is Woodyard going to play. he seems too light to play any of the LB positions in a 3-4, and supposedly McDaniels and Nolan have him in their plans for the defense. i can't think of where he will fit in.

DJ & Larsen seem to be the popular choices for MLB (from our current roster), but I believe Woodyard would also be in the mix.

BroncoMan4ever
02-20-2009, 06:43 PM
you don't think it winds me up when i check the board and all I see is fanboys b****ing and moaning about shanahan and his glory days?

you don't think winds me up when we have the worst, most gutless defense and inept special teams and horrible coaching/front office and these tools defend it and call our new coach, our owner, and our new front office people out even though they haven't done anything yet.

its getting old watching the whole board act like 6th graders.

Shanny had you all brainwashed, its really sad, well pat woke up and pat shook it up! deal with reality you fan boy slugs........

so your points were valid 2 months ago when he was still a coach for us. but now McDaniels is here and still YOU bitch and moan abotu Shanahan. outside of the first week after Mike was fired there really hasn't been much talk about how things would be better with him, and you tend to be the only one who brings him up in every post

Florida_Bronco
02-20-2009, 06:52 PM
i just got sad with this post.

on a different note. where the hell is Woodyard going to play. he seems too light to play any of the LB positions in a 3-4, and supposedly McDaniels and Nolan have him in their plans for the defense. i can't think of where he will fit in.

He will probably play WOLB or be DJ's backup at WILB.

The Joker
02-20-2009, 06:52 PM
you don't think it winds me up when i check the board and all I see is fanboys b****ing and moaning about shanahan and his glory days?

you don't think winds me up when we have the worst, most gutless defense and inept special teams and horrible coaching/front office and these tools defend it and call our new coach, our owner, and our new front office people out even though they haven't done anything yet.

its getting old watching the whole board act like 6th graders.

Shanny had you all brainwashed, its really sad, well pat woke up and pat shook it up! deal with reality you fan boy slugs........

I actually was happy to see him ago, the SD game and the insistence on keeping Slowik was the final nail in his decline.

But what I don't get is that you've gotten your wish, he's gone and the team is moving in another direction.

Why so do you still feel the need to attack Shanahan?

The man won 2 Superbowls in his time here, so I just don't see how it's possible for any fan to carry on such a hateful campaign against a man that led the franchise to the greatest successes its ever had.

Sure we've been average for a decade, and the last 3 years really sucked. But 2 Superbowls in 15 years is pretty damn impressive when looked at as a whole, and McDaniels or any coach that comes after him will be lucky to match that.

He may have lost the plot his last few years, and yes his defenses were painful to watch and made me curse him a number of times. But in a year or two when we remember Shanahan it'll be for the good he brought us in his time here. Or at least it should be.

Basically what I'm saying is have some ****ing respect for what the man did for your football team, rather than pissing on his memory with every post you make.

BroncoMan4ever
02-20-2009, 07:22 PM
He will probably play WOLB or be DJ's backup at WILB.

thank you, i was worried they were going to continue trying to turn him into a Safety

lex
02-20-2009, 07:56 PM
Theres just too much up in the air right now. Slowik was such a horrid DC. You have a 6'5 long and lean DE going out of a 4 pt stance. Doom has a lower center of gravity. Uncoiling isnt as much of an issue for him. I dont know if "uncoiling" was Moss' problem but I wouldnt dismiss it. Slowik had his philosophy and his reasoning is universally accepted as flawless, which is why a HOF coach was fired. I look forward to seeing both of these guys playing upright, OR, at the very least, not in a 4 pt stance. Maybe all the kvetching about or DLine will resolve itself by making that line into OLBs? That would mean we need Dline though.

Inkana7
02-20-2009, 07:58 PM
The reason why Moss hasn't done anything of note so far is that he hasn't been taught one single pass rush move. Just a bull rush. My middle school line coach taught us at least 5 moves, from what I can remember. Jarvis hasn't even had that kind of coaching.

lex
02-20-2009, 08:00 PM
The reason why Moss hasn't done anything of note so far is that he hasn't been taught one single pass rush move. Just a bull rush. My middle school line coach taught us at least 5 moves, from what I can remember. Jarvis hasn't even had that kind of coaching.

Is that why youre so good at grabbing another man's genitals?

socalorado
02-20-2009, 08:01 PM
Is that why youre so good at grabbing another man's genitals?

Changing the subject...

Who are you going to be watching closely at the combine?

ohiobronco2
02-20-2009, 08:07 PM
have you guys considered Moss' pro nuts have not droped yet?

To light a fire under him, I say we put him in a cage match with an ape. Any self defense techniques you want to throw Moss's way.

ohiobronco2
02-20-2009, 08:09 PM
you don't think it winds me up when i check the board and all I see is fanboys b****ing and moaning about shanahan and his glory days?

you don't think winds me up when we have the worst, most gutless defense and inept special teams and horrible coaching/front office and these tools defend it and call our new coach, our owner, and our new front office people out even though they haven't done anything yet.

its getting old watching the whole board act like 6th graders.

Shanny had you all brainwashed, its really sad, well pat woke up and pat shook it up! deal with reality you fan boy slugs........

Will you please cover yourself in gasoline and drive off a cliff.

lex
02-20-2009, 08:10 PM
Changing the subject...

Who are you going to be watching closely at the combine?

Im curious to see what a couple of RBs run...thats always the case. Do you know what Ive come to like as much as anything? Its the guys who choose not to make a go of it at the combine and then all the subsequent kvetching. I think sometimes its a bitch move by the player but its also sometimes just a lot of bitching by the talking heads.

But all in all, I dont think theres a lot to tell from the combine this year. Moreno and McCoy are expected to run in the 4.4s. Wells may run in the 4.4s or the 4.5s even thought he has good game speed.

I guess maybe James Davis is a guy worth watching after a dismal showing at the senior bowl. Mark my words, if he runs a slow time, someone here will start spinning a slow 40 time, a dismal showing at the senior bowl, and a horrid senior season as being a blessing.

BroncoMan4ever
02-20-2009, 09:09 PM
I actually was happy to see him ago, the SD game and the insistence on keeping Slowik was the final nail in his decline.

But what I don't get is that you've gotten your wish, he's gone and the team is moving in another direction.

Why so do you still feel the need to attack Shanahan?

The man won 2 Superbowls in his time here, so I just don't see how it's possible for any fan to carry on such a hateful campaign against a man that led the franchise to the greatest successes its ever had.

Sure we've been average for a decade, and the last 3 years really sucked. But 2 Superbowls in 15 years is pretty damn impressive when looked at as a whole, and McDaniels or any coach that comes after him will be lucky to match that.

He may have lost the plot his last few years, and yes his defenses were painful to watch and made me curse him a number of times. But in a year or two when we remember Shanahan it'll be for the good he brought us in his time here. Or at least it should be.

Basically what I'm saying is have some ****ing respect for what the man did for your football team, rather than pissing on his memory with every post you make.


i agree. he was the best coach in Denver history, and more than likely McDaniels isn't going to us 2 super bowl wins in the next few years. but it was time to move on. so once again i think Mike for his contributions and wish him well in his next job.

ZONA
02-20-2009, 09:51 PM
Yeah, I'm a firm believer that if there was even a sliver of hope for Elvis as a 3-4 OLB, someone would have scooped him and his 20 sacks (or whatever he had as a senior) up long before we took him in the 5th.

you mean sorta like how TD should have been scooped up before the 7th, and Marshall in the 5th, and.......... okay, well you get the point.

Kaylore
02-20-2009, 10:06 PM
Yeah, DREK convinced me to give Moss another year before i say he really is a bust. Hes been through too many coaches and schemes to just give up on him. He was listed during his draft as a player that could be very productive as a OLB in a 3-4, so this is his year, if NOLAN cant get this kid to be productinve and show signs of serious improvement, then NO ONE CAN.

He could be like Simon Fletcher. They both have the same build and Fletcher took three years to get his sea legs. Who knows?

Atlas
02-20-2009, 11:23 PM
bust-o-han, goodmans signed off on him and tim "clam chowder" crowder.

The Goodman's drafted him and crowder because they fit Bates' system. The Goodman's had no idea that Bates' system would be trashed at the half way point of the first season.

Bigdawg26
02-21-2009, 08:27 AM
I think Doom is going to be the best fit out of all the linebackers at OLB because it reminds me of woodley with his long arms and pass rushing skills. DJ also would be a good fit at MLB/ WLB in the 4-3. I'm not to sure about Boss where he fits but i guess its worth a shot. Moss is a toss up I was a moss supporter but i'm having my doubts about this. I would love to draft Rey Maya out of USC to be the other MLB. And Get a NT in the second or Gabe Watson and pick up Sean Jones and Gabril Wilson in the Free Agency along with a coner and 3-4 DE.
Translation= We need big FA splash cause we need alot of help!!!!

ludo21
02-21-2009, 08:39 AM
Homer Alert!:

Im predicting 6+ sacks from Moss this season

400HZ
02-21-2009, 08:51 AM
He will probably play WOLB or be DJ's backup at WILB.

You might want to watch a 3-4 defense play sometime.

JCMElway
02-21-2009, 08:53 AM
Doom to free safety!

Arkie
02-21-2009, 09:25 AM
Shanahan's time here is over. Let it be. Most fans view it as the greatest era in Broncos football, but everybody has their own opinion on what it was. Wolf, grow some security, man. It's time to turn the page.

SoDak Bronco
02-21-2009, 09:29 AM
Moss needs to eat some lard

azbroncfan
02-21-2009, 09:40 AM
Moss looks like a failed experiment. I'm not really sure why he'd pan out at LB in a 3/4. He's got no pass-rush moves at all. He's half the pass-rusher Elvis is.

.

It's kind of like throwing S%^T at the wall and seeing if it sticks. I agree he has shown little pass rushing ability. Soon Florida Bronco will be here telling us how we are wrong and it was all the coaches poor teaching and he is LT type game changing abilities. At least we don't have to watch Engelberger anymore and I hope you cheers a few beers down like I did after his departure.

Cito Pelon
02-21-2009, 09:42 AM
Moss still has potential in the NFL. He'll be playing in the league for another 8 yrs. He's not a total scrub. He can play adequately in a 4-3, we've seen that already, he tries and is coachable. If the current staff thinks he is workable at 3-4 LB, that's fine with me. If it doesn't work out, I bet he gets picked up by another team fast.

Crowder seems like he can function as a 3-4 DE, we'll see. Both of these guys and also Dumervil, DJ, Woodyard, maybe the new coaching staff can make a better whole out of the parts than the last two years.

theAPAOps5
02-21-2009, 09:45 AM
Moss still has potential in the NFL. He'll be playing in the league for another 8 yrs. He's not a total scrub. He can play adequately in a 4-3, we've seen that already, he tries and is coachable. If the current staff thinks he is workable at 3-4 LB, that's fine with me. If it doesn't work out, I bet he gets picked up by another team fast.

Crowder seems like he can function as a 3-4 DE, we'll see. Both of these guys and also Dumervil, DJ, Woodyard, maybe the new coaching staff can make a better whole out of the parts than the last two years.

I also want to see what these guys can do with an actual line coach. Not the joke that faked it for so many years here.

TheReverend
02-21-2009, 09:49 AM
The reason why Moss hasn't done anything of note so far is that he hasn't been taught one single pass rush move. Just a bull rush. My middle school line coach taught us at least 5 moves, from what I can remember. Jarvis hasn't even had that kind of coaching.

Can you name them? Because that many don't even really exist.

Spin, rip, swim, bullrush, and then variations based on attack points, unless you're counting the ever technical "run around him"? And most of the time the bullrush is just a preceding move to one of the other three...

montrose
02-21-2009, 09:59 AM
Can you name them? Because that many don't even really exist.

1) Bull
2) Rip
3) Swim
4) Club
5) Spin
6) L&R

TheReverend
02-21-2009, 10:36 AM
1) Bull
2) Rip
3) Swim
4) Club
5) Spin
6) L&R

A club is an engagement technique... a precursor to a swim or rip. I really wouldn't consider that a "pass rushing move" by any stretch of it's meaning. Clarify your meaning on L&R please?

ayjackson
02-21-2009, 10:42 AM
1) Bull
2) Rip
3) Swim
4) Club
5) Spin
6) L&R

What about the reach-around?

ayjackson
02-21-2009, 10:45 AM
Woodyard is a good fit at WILB, but won't see much action with DJ there. He'll probably be our nickel LB, like Guyton in NE, or Burnett in Dallas.
Bailey could have a shot too, if he's around.

montrose
02-21-2009, 10:48 AM
A club is an engagement technique... a precursor to a swim or rip. I really wouldn't consider that a "pass rushing move" by any stretch of it's meaning.

Reggie White may disagree with your statement, but I understand your point.

Clarify your meaning on L&R please?

Lockout and release.

TheReverend
02-21-2009, 11:05 AM
Reggie White may disagree with your statement, but I understand your point.

I hope so. Otherwise, should we be including headbutts? Or seperating shoulder dips from rips?

Lockout and release.

And you really feel that's not a slight variation of a bullrush?

montrose
02-21-2009, 11:17 AM
In my film assessment of Larsen in the Atlanta game, I did notice two plays in which Jarvis was lined up in a stand-up OLB position and took some screenshots to illustrate. The quality is not great, my computer is seven years old - sorry guys.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/430/jarvisblitz.jpg

Looking at the first play, Jarvis is standing up in a 7-technique at the WOLB spot. As you see in the shot #2, Jarvis is speed rushing the OT. I was surprised at his athleticism in turning his hips as illustrated in shot #3. By shot #4, Jarvis had beaten the LT and forced Matt Ryan to step up (as seen in the last shot) and make a shorter, hurried pass that was short on 3rd down. Obviously this was only one play, but Jarvis did demonstrate some athleticism and hip movement. His problem I've noticed is that once he's locked on, it's over. Why in the world the coaches decided to have him firing into OL out of a 4-point stance so often baffles me.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9378/jarviscoverage.jpg

Now the next shot is Jarvis dropping into coverage. Jarvis is again lined up in a 7-technique at the WOLB spot. This time, after his right influence step, he bailed into coverage about 10 yards as seen in shots #2 and #3. I was again impressed with his ability to backpedal as well as his hips when initially turning and breaking down. In shot #4, you can see Jarvis closing in on the receiver (Jarious Norwood) and in shot #5 was very quickly able to square up in position for the tackle. Up to this point, he looked great. Our problem comes at shot #6 as Jarvis broke down to soon as crumpled to the ground instead of engaging and attacking the RB. He should've exploded through the RB's torso, shooting his arms and hips through the tackle. Instead he not only took a side to the right which gave the back an easy decision of where to go, but was falling down before the back ever needed to engage, allowing the back to make an easy move past him for a gain as seen in the last shot.

I think Jarvis has the athletic ability to be at the least a serviceable backup at the WOLB spot, and he's shown in the past some ability to contain the run which could allow him to be a SOLB in nickle situations where he wouldn't be counted on to defend TEs. It will take a lot of work to get his tackling in open space to improve, but I wanted to show a few illustrations of how he looked last year with extremely limited experience at the position and I think we can all speculate without the best coaching.

montrose
02-21-2009, 11:22 AM
I hope so. Otherwise, should we be including headbutts? Or seperating shoulder dips from rips?

I think we need to bring the headbutt back. That would own. All of these moves are variations of other moves, but they should be taught. I think that's what Ink was referring to. Sure they're variations, but Jarvis hasn't even shown them. From the times I attended camp, I never saw Burney working with him on any of them. Instead I heard a lot of, "Come on Jarvis!" "You gotta be there Jarvis!" When they went to individual, they mostly worked on pad level and exploding out of their four point stances. No moves, at least to what I saw.

And you really feel that's not a slight variation of a bullrush?

It's a variation but the word slight is subjective.

TheReverend
02-21-2009, 11:29 AM
I think we need to bring the headbutt back. That would own. All of these moves are variations of other moves, but they should be taught. I think that's what Ink was referring to. Sure they're variations, but Jarvis hasn't even shown them. From the times I attended camp, I never saw Burney working with him on any of them. Instead I heard a lot of, "Come on Jarvis!" "You gotta be there Jarvis!" When they went to individual, they mostly worked on pad level and exploding out of their four point stances. No moves, at least to what I saw.

Honestly, they're probably moves he should have already mastered by the time he hit the pro-game. Coaching at this point should be more about using them in tandem with other fundamental moves, which shoulders to attack and what leverage tipping point to execute. But if Burney wasn't even capable of teaching fundamentals then he deserves to be gone.

It's a variation but the word slight is subjective.

Subjective as it pertains to the pass rush? Locking out and releasing is significantly more common in playing the run and in read fronts, and on passing downs is nearly exactly the same things as a bullrush...

thumpc
02-21-2009, 11:32 AM
Few LBs would have tackled Norwood in that much space.

montrose
02-21-2009, 11:39 AM
Honestly, they're probably moves he should have already mastered by the time he hit the pro-game. Coaching at this point should be more about using them in tandem with other fundamental moves, which shoulders to attack and what leverage tipping point to execute. But if Burney wasn't even capable of teaching fundamentals then he deserves to be gone.

I agree, but we all knew he was really raw coming out Florida. That was his wrap. You'd think they'd work on it with him. Maybe they did and he's such a pot-head it never stuck? I can only vouch for the many camp practices I attended the last two years in which I never saw them working on moves with any of the DEs. Engelberger worked on more of them by himself before practice than I saw any of the other DEs doing all camp.

Subjective as it pertains to the pass rush? Locking out and releasing is significantly more common in playing the run and in read fronts, and on passing downs is nearly exactly the same things as a bullrush...

It is more common in run and read fronts, however it can be used - particularly at the middle/high school levels Ink was referring to - as a pass rush move. I'm not sure it'd be the exact same thing on a passing down if we're going to use the Broncos as examples. Engelberger and Moss tried bull-rushing OTs straight back into collapsing the pocket. When I refer to the L&R, I think more of a quick-striking move, at least that's what Larry Johnson Sr. taught me at Penn State Camp. Punch and lockup then quickly release as the OT is stunned from the punch. Again, very popular move at the adolescent levels.

Few LBs would have tackled Norwood in that much space.

While that might be true, he didn't give himself much of a chance. It's not like Norwood shook him to the ground or blew by him. They were evenly squared up, a testament to Jarvis' athleticism, and Jarvis crumpled to the ground before Norwood even made a move. The same problem could've happened with any RB or WR. It's going to take time.

chickennob2
02-21-2009, 11:48 AM
Yeah, I feel like Jarvis has tons of athletic ability, he just needs some damn coaching. Hopefully this staff can give him that.

Beantown Bronco
02-21-2009, 11:49 AM
You are absolutely right. That's why we have players leave here and have success elsewhere. There is just no patience.

Name one such player (not named Hixon).

azbroncfan
02-21-2009, 12:47 PM
1) Bull
2) Rip
3) Swim
4) Club
5) Spin
6) L&R

If you ask John Engelberger there is also the engage the opponent and then...

1. Salsa
2. SLowdance
3. Waltz
4. Polka
5. Swingdance
6. Linedance
8. bump and grind

Florida_Bronco
02-21-2009, 01:06 PM
Name one such player (not named Hixon).

Tory James
Desmond Clark

Kaylore
02-21-2009, 01:13 PM
They used Jarvis as Joker in a 3-4 against Indy and it actually gave Manning problems until they made half-tome adjustments. He has shown the ability to play linebacker, or at least linebacker style assignments, and be effective.

TheReverend
02-21-2009, 01:14 PM
I agree, but we all knew he was really raw coming out Florida. That was his wrap. You'd think they'd work on it with him. Maybe they did and he's such a pot-head it never stuck? I can only vouch for the many camp practices I attended the last two years in which I never saw them working on moves with any of the DEs. Engelberger worked on more of them by himself before practice than I saw any of the other DEs doing all camp.

I doubt that's the case...

From games, I think it might be a case of him not having much playing time to be able to set the opposing lineman up for counter moves, but then again if you say he's been the same in practice... who knows?

It is more common in run and read fronts, however it can be used - particularly at the middle/high school levels Ink was referring to - as a pass rush move. I'm not sure it'd be the exact same thing on a passing down if we're going to use the Broncos as examples. Engelberger and Moss tried bull-rushing OTs straight back into collapsing the pocket. When I refer to the L&R, I think more of a quick-striking move, at least that's what Larry Johnson Sr. taught me at Penn State Camp. Punch and lockup then quickly release as the OT is stunned from the punch. Again, very popular move at the adolescent levels.

Think you're missing the point. Read your bolded sentence, and then what comes after the release? An actual pass rush move, right?

Inkana7
02-21-2009, 04:39 PM
Can you name them? Because that many don't even really exist.

Spin, rip, swim, bullrush, and then variations based on attack points, unless you're counting the ever technical "run around him"? And most of the time the bullrush is just a preceding move to one of the other three...

I was really just throwing a number out there, but let's see what I can remember:

1) Bull rush
2) Swim
3) Spin
4) Rip
5) This one might be the Lockout and Release, I'm not sure, but essentially, you grab hold of the OL's jersey, push him away from you, and then pull him into you, swimming over him. My coach called it the Push and Pull. Pretty damn effective in Middle School

skpac1001
02-21-2009, 04:52 PM
The reason why Moss hasn't done anything of note so far is that he hasn't been taught one single pass rush move. Just a bull rush. My middle school line coach taught us at least 5 moves, from what I can remember. Jarvis hasn't even had that kind of coaching.

I would be amazed if he hasn't been shown just about every move 50 times over throughout his career. He just hasn't integrated them into his game, and I would guess the reason why is up till now he didn't need them, he could rely on athleticism and beat guys outright. Maybe a good coach can help him strip and then rebuild his game, but its still up to him to translate it onto the field.

Inkana7
02-21-2009, 05:02 PM
I would be amazed if he hasn't been shown just about every move 50 times over throughout his career. He just hasn't integrated them into his game, and I would guess the reason why is up till now he didn't need them, he could rely on athleticism and beat guys outright. Maybe a good coach can help him strip and then rebuild his game, but its still up to him to translate it onto the field.

It wasn't just Moss. The entire line suffered from the same lack of coaching. Didn't Marcus Thomas say something to the effect that all he's allowed to do/has been taught to do was bull rush?

skpac1001
02-21-2009, 05:08 PM
It wasn't just Moss. The entire line suffered from the same lack of coaching. Didn't Marcus Thomas say something to the effect that all he's allowed to do/has been taught to do was bull rush?

Damn, what the hell were the coaches doing? I don't know what level they started playing at but you would think they would have a good coach at some level.

gyldenlove
02-21-2009, 05:30 PM
If you ask John Engelberger there is also the engage the opponent and then...

1. Salsa
2. SLowdance
3. Waltz
4. Polka
5. Swingdance
6. Linedance
8. bump and grind


You completely forget his favourite move, the "stand around and stare menacingly".

Inkana7
02-21-2009, 05:38 PM
In my film assessment of Larsen in the Atlanta game, I did notice two plays in which Jarvis was lined up in a stand-up OLB position and took some screenshots to illustrate. The quality is not great, my computer is seven years old - sorry guys.

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/430/jarvisblitz.jpg

Looking at the first play, Jarvis is standing up in a 7-technique at the WOLB spot. As you see in the shot #2, Jarvis is speed rushing the OT. I was surprised at his athleticism in turning his hips as illustrated in shot #3. By shot #4, Jarvis had beaten the LT and forced Matt Ryan to step up (as seen in the last shot) and make a shorter, hurried pass that was short on 3rd down. Obviously this was only one play, but Jarvis did demonstrate some athleticism and hip movement. His problem I've noticed is that once he's locked on, it's over. Why in the world the coaches decided to have him firing into OL out of a 4-point stance so often baffles me.

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9378/jarviscoverage.jpg

Now the next shot is Jarvis dropping into coverage. Jarvis is again lined up in a 7-technique at the WOLB spot. This time, after his right influence step, he bailed into coverage about 10 yards as seen in shots #2 and #3. I was again impressed with his ability to backpedal as well as his hips when initially turning and breaking down. In shot #4, you can see Jarvis closing in on the receiver (Jarious Norwood) and in shot #5 was very quickly able to square up in position for the tackle. Up to this point, he looked great. Our problem comes at shot #6 as Jarvis broke down to soon as crumpled to the ground instead of engaging and attacking the RB. He should've exploded through the RB's torso, shooting his arms and hips through the tackle. Instead he not only took a side to the right which gave the back an easy decision of where to go, but was falling down before the back ever needed to engage, allowing the back to make an easy move past him for a gain as seen in the last shot.

I think Jarvis has the athletic ability to be at the least a serviceable backup at the WOLB spot, and he's shown in the past some ability to contain the run which could allow him to be a SOLB in nickle situations where he wouldn't be counted on to defend TEs. It will take a lot of work to get his tackling in open space to improve, but I wanted to show a few illustrations of how he looked last year with extremely limited experience at the position and I think we can all speculate without the best coaching.
Great breakdown, montrose.

They also lined up Jarvis at OLB for the Cleveland game. Mind checking that out?

SoCalBronco
02-21-2009, 05:51 PM
Moss to McDonald's might be his next move.

Inkana7
02-21-2009, 05:53 PM
Moss to McDonald's might be his next move.

I'll give him another year. His failure so far is two pronged. His inability to gain weight has failed him, but so has the coaching, or lack thereof, he's gotten here.

Florida_Bronco
02-21-2009, 06:01 PM
Moss to McDonald's might be his next move.

Why do you have such hatred for Moss? ???

Inkana7
02-21-2009, 06:09 PM
Why do you have such hatred for Moss? ???

He probably chose the Gators over the 'Canes.

BroncoMan4ever
02-21-2009, 09:40 PM
Homer Alert!:

Im predicting 6+ sacks from Moss this season

i predict he is on the list of final cuts to get the roster down to 53

montrose
02-21-2009, 10:14 PM
I doubt that's the case...

Probably, although that Sirius interview a year sure didn't help.

From games, I think it might be a case of him not having much playing time to be able to set the opposing lineman up for counter moves, but then again if you say he's been the same in practice... who knows?

The funny thing is that a lot of the practices I attended, he looked good. Almost dominant. However, that was again using his 4-point stance, firing into OTs. And he was schooling guys like Pears; although he did get the best of Harris quite a bit early in camp - Harris looked like complete crap most of the time. I can't believe the improvement he made from then to the season.

Think you're missing the point. Read your bolded sentence, and then what comes after the release? An actual pass rush move, right?

Well I suppose we could classify it as the run around although I've always thought of it as it's own move. Oh well, I guess it really doesn't matter too much.

They also lined up Jarvis at OLB for the Cleveland game. Mind checking that out?

Sure, I'm still working on the Atlanta game but I'll do Cleveland next. I've caught two more instances of Jarvis playing WOLB, but both times he dropped into coverage and he was uninvolved in the play. I'm watching Atlanta mostly to breakdown Larsen, once that's done I'm check out Jarvis against Cleveland. I'm also looking forward to breaking down the Oakland debacle and I'll let you know what I find out. After that, it's on to watching the entire Pats and 49ers seasons to get a better feel for our new staff. NFL Game Rewind is a beautiful thing for just 5 bucks.

I'll give him another year. His failure so far is two pronged. His inability to gain weight has failed him, but so has the coaching, or lack thereof, he's gotten here.

I'm certain the coaching hasn't helped, but at this point the "investment" is over. There's a new regime in town and if they don't think he can contribute this year, he's gone. He actually projects to being a better all-round WOLB than Dumervil in my opinion, but Nolan's past schemes have used that spot as a near exclusive pass-rusher and Dumervil is more accomplished in that area. Who knows, maybe he really takes to the position and becomes a stud? If we don't draft an Orakpo/Brown/Maybin type - maybe Moss is a 1st and 2nd down WOLB who slides over to SOLB with Dumervil coming on 3rd downs at WOLB? Or perhaps Dumervil's pass-rushing fits exactly what they want to do and Moss is simply his backup? Or maybe Moss comes in for Boss at SOLB on 3rd downs? Or maybe Moss starts at SOLB? Or Moss may not even be on the team. I'm sure there will be a ton of mixing and matching. Just remember that Nolan's past scheme have shown that one of the OLBs is a more accomplished pass rusher while the other is a more well-rounded SLB. Obviously he and McDaniels will tailor a bit to their players, but that's the way Nolan's coached in the past.

BroncoBuff
02-21-2009, 10:43 PM
I'll give him another year. His failure so far is two pronged. His inability to gain weight has failed him, but so has the coaching, or lack thereof, he's gotten here.
Agree on both ... plus with an entirely new position, I'm starting from scratch with Jarvis now.

Tim Crowder on the other hand ... a healthy deactivation 10 or more games ... with OUR DEs? He's basically done.

SouthStndJunkie
02-21-2009, 10:51 PM
I am giving Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder a clean slate this year with the new coaching staff and new defensive scheme.

If they don't do much this year, then I will officially label them as busts....but I am going into 2009 with an open mind in regards to those two.

NFLBRONCO
02-21-2009, 11:04 PM
I am giving Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder a clean slate this year with the new coaching staff and new defensive scheme.

If they don't do much this year, then I will officially label them as busts....but I am going into 2009 with an open mind in regards to those two.

I agree Junkman

OrangeRising
02-21-2009, 11:24 PM
I just can't understand the situation with Tim Crowder. Of the two drat picks, Moss and Crowder, it seemed Crowder was the one making great progress. He seemed to be an average, or even below average pass rusher, but a very good run stopper. And then nothing. Inactive all those games while Moss flailed about. I agree with those people saying they start with a clean slate starting now. It just seems too weird both of these athletic, talented guys would be total flops the way it looks right now.

montrose
02-22-2009, 09:08 AM
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5913/jarviscontain.jpg

Still working on the Atlanta game, I found a good example of Jarvis demonstrating his ability to contain. It didn't come out of a stand-up OLB spot, but rather Jacob Burney's beloved 4-point stance. As you can see shots #1 and #2, Jarvis is engaged with the RT and manages not to be hooked. I couldn't capture this with a screen shot, but between the two shots Jarvis locks out his arms very well creating distance from the RT. By shot #3, he's moving laterally with the RT, maintaining his outside contain. At that point, he's accomplished most of his job by containing the outside to force the back up inside. As you can see in shot #4, Michael Turner decides to take the ball outside anyway and challenge Moss. Jarvis used his athletic ability and long frame to make a great tackle for a only a 1 yard gain. For as much is made of Jarvis' lighter framer, he actually has pretty good technique against the run and from what I've caught thus far - is rarely dominated in the run game. My biggest pet peeve has come on the pass rush when he's just bull rushing OTs out of a 4-point stance every play. The bit I've watched of him thus far has me encouraged that will better coaching, he's at least got a chance. The guy is a good athlete.

nickademus
02-22-2009, 09:32 AM
Moss really had about a year and a half of collge expierence before he was drafted he lost a year to a staff infection. there was a big piece on ESPiN a few years ago talking about the lack of pass rush specialists in the NFL. It was basicly talking about the Giants DL and all of the moves they used compaired to the rest of the league. They covered some of the all time great pass rushers and asked them why they thought no one could rush the passer like they used to in the NFL and the bottom line was no one taught the techniques anymore and that most DLmen come out of college poorly prepaired for the NFL.

Cito Pelon
02-22-2009, 12:23 PM
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5913/jarviscontain.jpg

Still working on the Atlanta game, I found a good example of Jarvis demonstrating his ability to contain. It didn't come out of a stand-up OLB spot, but rather Jacob Burney's beloved 4-point stance. As you can see shots #1 and #2, Jarvis is engaged with the RT and manages not to be hooked. I couldn't capture this with a screen shot, but between the two shots Jarvis locks out his arms very well creating distance from the RT. By shot #3, he's moving laterally with the RT, maintaining his outside contain. At that point, he's accomplished most of his job by containing the outside to force the back up inside. As you can see in shot #4, Michael Turner decides to take the ball outside anyway and challenge Moss. Jarvis used his athletic ability and long frame to make a great tackle for a only a 1 yard gain. For as much is made of Jarvis' lighter framer, he actually has pretty good technique against the run and from what I've caught thus far - is rarely dominated in the run game. My biggest pet peeve has come on the pass rush when he's just bull rushing OTs out of a 4-point stance every play. The bit I've watched of him thus far has me encouraged that will better coaching, he's at least got a chance. The guy is a good athlete.

Sure, Moss isn't a total loser, he has some ability. He's not much of an attacker though, kind of passive. Elvis is an attacker. We'll see how these holdovers pan out. Moss, if he wants to be an OLB in the 3-4 he'll have to attack the QB more decisively than what I've seen from him so far.

It was interesting to see you post that Moss looked like a gangbuster in practice. Dude has to translate that to gameday, I guess.

Br0nc0Buster
02-22-2009, 12:35 PM
Why do you have such hatred for Moss? ???

I dont know if hates Moss so much as just pointing out the obvious

And that is that he is in fact quite horrible

Rock Chalk
02-22-2009, 04:21 PM
I dont know what makes anyone think Doom can play OLB. He can't cover for ****, certainly isnt fast enough to stick with a TE or RB out of the backfield. He'd be a situational OLB at best in a 3-4 like he is a situational 4-3 DE.

Moss...I dont know. He's faster than Doom and taller so he may be a better fit there but I don't know if he has the footwork to drop back in coverage. I think he is probably athletically gifted enough so hopefully our coaching staff isnt full of a bunch of morons like the last coaching staff was and can get something out of him.

The Joker
02-22-2009, 04:32 PM
I dont know what makes anyone think Doom can play OLB. He can't cover for ****, certainly isnt fast enough to stick with a TE or RB out of the backfield. He'd be a situational OLB at best in a 3-4 like he is a situational 4-3 DE.

Moss...I dont know. He's faster than Doom and taller so he may be a better fit there but I don't know if he has the footwork to drop back in coverage. I think he is probably athletically gifted enough so hopefully our coaching staff isnt full of a bunch of morons like the last coaching staff was and can get something out of him.

Dumervil has never been anything other than a situational guy, and never will be to be quite frank.

Lunacy that he was ever starting for us. Not only is he a total liability against the run, but he gets worn down and becomes less effective on passing downs as a result.

I hope the coaching staff uses him exclusively on passing downs next year, keep him fresh and he'll get near 10 sacks again and give us some pressure on 3rd downs. Trying to get anything more from him by having him on the field all game is counter-productive.

Find someone else to compete with Moss as the starting WOLB. I'm hopeful that Moss can make the transition, but a proven alternative is essential in case he sucks.

DBroncos4life
02-22-2009, 04:57 PM
I dont know what makes anyone think Doom can play OLB. He can't cover for ****, certainly isnt fast enough to stick with a TE or RB out of the backfield. He'd be a situational OLB at best in a 3-4 like he is a situational 4-3 DE.

Moss...I dont know. He's faster than Doom and taller so he may be a better fit there but I don't know if he has the footwork to drop back in coverage. I think he is probably athletically gifted enough so hopefully our coaching staff isnt full of a bunch of morons like the last coaching staff was and can get something out of him.

I think its because he is a very good pass rusher. Personally I think he is a better athlete then James Harrison. Parys Haralson was drafted by Nolan I believe or atleast started at ROLB at San Fran under Nolan. He is 6 foot 255. Not much bigger then Doom at all. Parys Haralson ran a 4.8 in the 40 at the combine, Doom ran a 4.75 Both Haralson and Doom played DE in collage and both where viewed as DEs that would be moved to OLB in a 3-4. I still believe Doom can be a 9 to 10 sack player a year out of the OLB position.

Parys Haralson is getting better as well he lead SF in sacks this year.

~Crash~
02-22-2009, 07:43 PM
Shanahan's time here is over. Let it be. Most fans view it as the greatest era in Broncos football, but everybody has their own opinion on what it was. Wolf, grow some security, man. It's time to turn the page.

put him on ignore and would you guys not quote the ****er. by week 3 he will be pissing and moaning about firing mckid