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View Full Version : My case for Brian Cushing at #12


montrose
02-16-2009, 11:20 AM
http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2008/07-27/rosebowltlp02m_300.jpg
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2009&id=24453&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl draft%2fdraft%2ftracker%2fplayer%3fdraftyear%3d200 9%26id%3d24453

I've been somewhat stuck on going with Rey Maualuga or B.J. Raji, but after doing some research on this year's crop I'm now putting my vote in for Brian Cushing as our pick at #12. Now, I have not seen any of these players actually play, and am basing much of this off the various reports I've read, so please keep that in mind. Anyhow, here's my case for "Cush":

The SLB position is a very important one in Mike Nolan's defense
Per my thread on Nolan's 30-front (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=76570), I believe the SOLB position is the most important of the four linebacker spots in Nolan's scheme. Cushing could step right in and theoretically fill that need for years. From what I've read, he's not only a sound tackler, but very solid in coverage which is vital at the SOLB spot.

He's versatile
This is a big plus considering we're very likely looking at a hybrid system for this coming season. From what I've gathered, he's played DE, OLB and ILB but is best fit as a true SLB, a sure position of need. That versatility reminds me of Mike Vrabel, something that should speak to Josh McDaniels.

He's smart and tough
At least according to the reports I've read, he should fit right in as a McDaniels/Nolan-type defender. You can't play the number of positions he did without having a high football IQ, and the bit I've read speaks to him as a tough player who is a sound tackler who always finds himself in the right position and is an underrated pass rusher.

He's from a winning program that produces quality NFL players.
Sometimes this can be overrated, by I think it's a plus worth mentioning.

There isn't a NT worth selecting at #12
I suppose Raji could play the spot, but it's not what he does best. His build and talents don't best serve that spot. In addition, I doubt Raji will even make it to #12.

Denver can get by for a season with ILB's already on the roster, they can't at SLB.
While it may not be the long-term solution, I believe DJ Williams and Spencer Larsen could fit the bill at least for this season. Seeing I expect some type of hybrid, we could go with Dumervil, Williams, Larsen and Cushing in the 3-4; Williams, Larsen and Cushing in the 4-3; and Williams and Cushing in the nickel. Now, if Xanders, McDaniels and Nolan believe Maualuga is their guy - I've got no problem taking him. But I do believe that at least for this season, we could get by with Williams and Larsen. We don't have a guy to fill that SLB role on the roster right now. Boss Bailey has some of those skills, but he's not a natural fit and with his injury history and cap number it's doubtful he'll be back anyway. There isn't a guy on the roster with the necessary skills to play this very important position.

Outlook
I think Cushing could be an exact-model of the "New Denver Broncos-type of defender." He fits a need and can help in many different roles. If the Broncos can find a capable NT in round 2 and sign a guy like Mike Wright, they would have an immediate upgrade in both their 4-3 and 3-4 alignments.

no-pseudo-fan
02-16-2009, 11:24 AM
Injury concerns is my only thing with Cushing.

Kaylore
02-16-2009, 11:26 AM
Do you think 12 is a bit high for him?

socalorado
02-16-2009, 11:27 AM
What if DEN were able to trade back with PHIL?
#21 B.CUSHING
#28 C.MATTHEWS
#48 R.BRACE

3-4 LBs
SAM B.CUSHING
MIKE S. LARSEN
WILL DJ WILLIAMS
JACK C.MATTHEWS

TheReverend
02-16-2009, 11:30 AM
Cushing's peaked.

montrose
02-16-2009, 11:30 AM
Do you think 12 is a bit high for him?

Possibly, although I've seen mocks that have him going to us at #12. If we could move down a few spots and still get him plus another pick - that'd be great. With that, Pat Kirwan and Tim Ryan have been hearing that draft picks are holding an even higher value this year than normal because of the fear of the future labor deal. Obviously if there's a run on tackles in the top 10 and a lot of high value guys fall to us at #12 we could try to move back but I'd have no issue at all taking him at that spot.

Hallside
02-16-2009, 11:33 AM
I'd be totally ok with this if we could trade back a bit and get some value. If we pick him at #12, we may be getting a really good football player, but, at this point, it looks like we'd have left some considerable value on the table. After the combine, who knows?

Senior Bowl reports were pretty glowing about Cushing, with many saying he was the best linebacker there.

socalorado
02-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Cushing's peaked.

Yeah, his "peak" performance to me was the ROSE BOWL. :welcome:

montrose
02-16-2009, 11:35 AM
Cushing's peaked.

How so Rev? Again, I based most of what I wrote on reports so if you've seen him please elaborate. Thanks in advance.

TheReverend
02-16-2009, 11:35 AM
Yeah, his "peak" performance to me was the ROSE BOWL. :welcome:

I'm probably moving back to California at the end of this year.

In that case, you're gonna die.

TheReverend
02-16-2009, 11:39 AM
How so Rev? Again, I based most of what I wrote on reports so if you've seen him please elaborate. Thanks in advance.

I love his tackling ability. He's got something rare there where most players go for the knockout shot, Cushing's got the discipline to break down before the ball carrier and then attack into the break.

That being said, he's not very explosive. In coverage, he's a hook zone player at best. Sure he can get coached on some little things, like throwing his elbow into his turns, but a lot of that required athleticism isn't coached.

He's a guy I'm anxious to watch at the combine where these issues and doubts I have on him can be isolated and shown. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll know next week.

First round pick, not a game changer.

socalorado
02-16-2009, 11:41 AM
I'm probably moving back to California at the end of this year.

In that case, you're gonna die.

;D

Rohirrim
02-16-2009, 11:43 AM
Cushing has been at the top of my wish list all along. He's a great tackler, aggressive, and yet smart. I think the main benefit to Cushing would be that he's been Pete Carroll's field general. DJ (for one) could really use that.

Montrose, you should also be aware, there is a strong anti-USC bias among many posters on this board. Just an FYI. ;D

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 11:47 AM
http://www.pe.com/imagesdaily/2008/07-27/rosebowltlp02m_300.jpg
http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/tracker/player?draftyear=2009&id=24453&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl draft%2fdraft%2ftracker%2fplayer%3fdraftyear%3d200 9%26id%3d24453

I've been somewhat stuck on going with Rey Maualuga or B.J. Raji, but after doing some research on this year's crop I'm now putting my vote in for Brian Cushing as our pick at #12. Now, I have not seen any of these players actually play, and am basing much of this off the various reports I've read, so please keep that in mind. Anyhow, here's my case for "Cush":

The SLB position is a very important one in Mike Nolan's defense
Per my thread on Nolan's 30-front (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=76570), I believe the SOLB position is the most important of the four linebacker spots in Nolan's scheme. Cushing could step right in and theoretically fill that need for years. From what I've read, he's not only a sound tackler, but very solid in coverage which is vital at the SOLB spot.

He's versatile
This is a big plus considering we're very likely looking at a hybrid system for this coming season. From what I've gathered, he's played DE, OLB and ILB but is best fit as a true SLB, a sure position of need. That versatility reminds me of Mike Vrabel, something that should speak to Josh McDaniels.

He's smart and tough
At least according to the reports I've read, he should fit right in as a McDaniels/Nolan-type defender. You can't play the number of positions he did without having a high football IQ, and the bit I've read speaks to him as a tough player who is a sound tackler who always finds himself in the right position and is an underrated pass rusher.

He's from a winning program that produces quality NFL players.
Sometimes this can be overrated, by I think it's a plus worth mentioning.

There isn't a NT worth selecting at #12
I suppose Raji could play the spot, but it's not what he does best. His build and talents don't best serve that spot. In addition, I doubt Raji will even make it to #12.

Denver can get by for a season with ILB's already on the roster, they can't at SLB.
While it may not be the long-term solution, I believe DJ Williams and Spencer Larsen could fit the bill at least for this season. Seeing I expect some type of hybrid, we could go with Dumervil, Williams, Larsen and Cushing in the 3-4; Williams, Larsen and Cushing in the 4-3; and Williams and Cushing in the nickel. Now, if Xanders, McDaniels and Nolan believe Maualuga is their guy - I've got no problem taking him. But I do believe that at least for this season, we could get by with Williams and Larsen. We don't have a guy to fill that SLB role on the roster right now. Boss Bailey has some of those skills, but he's not a natural fit and with his injury history and cap number it's doubtful he'll be back anyway. There isn't a guy on the roster with the necessary skills to play this very important position.

Outlook
I think Cushing could be an exact-model of the "New Denver Broncos-type of defender." He fits a need and can help in many different roles. If the Broncos can find a capable NT in round 2 and sign a guy like Mike Wright, they would have an immediate upgrade in both their 4-3 and 3-4 alignments.

I really like Cush.. But you have to contend with his injuries. which scare the bajesus out of me. i think one was a knee. he is defiently a guy that can play SOLB and SLB. which you are right is crucial. There is also *from what i have heard* steriod issues. true or not the broncos better check into his injury history and the steriod issue. if they check back clean i am alright with it. Normally i think you dont want to take a SLB early in the draft but in a 3-4 SOLB is a huge need which is hard to fill

montrose
02-16-2009, 11:47 AM
I love his tackling ability. He's got something rare there where most players go for the knockout shot, Cushing's got the discipline to break down before the ball carrier and then attack into the break.

That being said, he's not very explosive. In coverage, he's a hook zone player at best. Sure he can get coached on some little things, like throwing his elbow into his turns, but a lot of that required athleticism isn't coached.

He's a guy I'm anxious to watch at the combine where these issues and doubts I have on him can be isolated and shown. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll know next week.

First round pick, not a game changer.

This is pretty on point with what I pictured from reading reports. I am also interested at seeing him at the combine. One difference from my reports and your post is his athleticism, I didn't find any reports calling the guy a freak - but it did make him out to be a relatively athletic dude. Hopefully Martindale's success coaching LB's in coverage, along with Phifer's knowledge of the system can help him improve his skills.

I didn't see the guy as a game changer, but someonw who could be a solid member of the unit for years to come. A safe pick if you will, as I don't think we can afford to miss on this pick. Again, I'm cool with Maulauga as well - but I think SLB is a bigger need than MLB at least for this season.

Mediator12
02-16-2009, 11:49 AM
How so Rev? Again, I based most of what I wrote on reports so if you've seen him please elaborate. Thanks in advance.

Most scouts are saying that Cushing has reached his ceiling already and will not be any better than he is right now. It makes him safe in a way as you know what you are getting. However, you want a player that has a better ceiling in the #12 spot of the draft than what Cushing is offering there. Someone that can get to the next level as a pro and be a perennial pro bowl prospect versus just a very good Sam.

It is also a very poor value to draft a SAM that high, even in the 3-4. Lots of Athletes that can be better suited to OLB than DE in this draft and Clint Simtim or Larry English would be excellent options there much later.

Finally, he does have a huge medical rap sheet that will discourage using that high of a selection on most draft boards. The frequency of the injuries are more concerning than the type's. He plays really physically tough and leaves himself open to getting hurt.

TheReverend
02-16-2009, 11:50 AM
This is pretty on point with what I pictured from reading reports. I am also interested at seeing him at the combine. One difference from my reports and your post is his athleticism, I didn't find any reports calling the guy a freak - but it did make him out to be a relatively athletic dude. Hopefully Martindale's success coaching LB's in coverage, along with Phifer's knowledge of the system can help him improve his skills.

I didn't see the guy as a game changer, but someonw who could be a solid member of the unit for years to come. A safe pick if you will, as I don't think we can afford to miss on this pick. Again, I'm cool with Maulauga as well - but I think SLB is a bigger need than MLB at least for this season.

I don't read reports until April, so it's all just imo.

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 11:50 AM
What if DEN were able to trade back with PHIL?
#21 B.CUSHING
#28 C.MATTHEWS
#48 R.BRACE

3-4 LBs
SAM B.CUSHING
MIKE S. LARSEN
WILL DJ WILLIAMS
JACK C.MATTHEWS
i like Clay. I think we owe it to ourselves and doom to make sure he cant play the position. he is cheap. and if he doesnt work then we dont have to re-sign him. the Jack linebacker spot is usually pretty deep on talent in most drafts.

Also with moss that is another guy that i jsut want to see what he can do. we might have players in these two but i think we need to kick the tires on these guys before we throw em in the dumpster.

*if* we trade down. Im happy with Cush and the top rated S or best RB on the board.

TheReverend
02-16-2009, 11:51 AM
Cushing has been at the top of my wish list all along. He's a great tackler, aggressive, and yet smart. I think the main benefit to Cushing would be that he's been Pete Carroll's field general. DJ (for one) could really use that.

Montrose, you should also be aware, there is a strong anti-USC bias among many posters on this board. Just an FYI. ;D

As well there should be, just an FYI ;D

socalorado
02-16-2009, 11:56 AM
i like Clay. I think we owe it to ourselves and doom to make sure he cant play the position. he is cheap. and if he doesnt work then we dont have to re-sign him. the Jack linebacker spot is usually pretty deep on talent in most drafts.

Also with moss that is another guy that i jsut want to see what he can do. we might have players in these two but i think we need to kick the tires on these guys before we throw em in the dumpster.

*if* we trade down. Im happy with Cush and the top rated S or best RB on the board.

Oh thats the homer mock, man!

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 11:57 AM
Call me Captin Homer.

Born again Hooligan only to be king again! yo.

Rohirrim
02-16-2009, 11:57 AM
I see Cushing as more of an ILB in the NFL. Move him inside with DJ, where he can call the plays and stuff the run.

socalorado
02-16-2009, 12:02 PM
Call me Captin Homer.

Born again Hooligan only to be king again! yo.

I still think it would be kinda sweet to have two super high energy, tackling machine, motors out there on the outside making plays.
And yes, Cushing could be moved inside no problem. He is very versatile.
Mike Vrabel isnt the most athletic guy on the field, but he has good athletic ability, very smart and very versatile.
#12 is sorta the "twilight zone spot"

montrose
02-16-2009, 12:04 PM
Most scouts are saying that Cushing has reached his ceiling already and will not be any better than he is right now. It makes him safe in a way as you know what you are getting.

I think that's a reason I was drawn to him. That and the fact the SLB spot is so important in Nolan's 30-front and we don't have anyone close to playing it.

However, you want a player that has a better ceiling in the #12 spot of the draft than what Cushing is offering there. Someone that can get to the next level as a pro and be a perennial pro bowl prospect versus just a very good Sam.

I do agree, I think I've just been a bit scared off by the huge defensive misses under the Shanhan/Goodman regime. I suppose I should have more confidence in our new leadership, I'm simply petrified at the thought that our 1st round pick will completely bust like Moss, Middlebrooks, etc.

It is also a very poor value to draft a SAM that high, even in the 3-4. Lots of Athletes that can be better suited to OLB than DE in this draft and Clint Simtim or Larry English would be excellent options there much later.

I do agree that it's a huge reach of value, again I'm one that might want to lean towards a safer pick here. I don't think we can go wrong with either USC LB.

Finally, he does have a huge medical rap sheet that will discourage using that high of a selection on most draft boards. The frequency of the injuries are more concerning than the type's. He plays really physically tough and leaves himself open to getting hurt.

This I was not aware of but damn I love the thought of bringing in a tough football player. It sounds to me like no one would have a problem if we could move down, pick up an extra pick and still get him but an issue of value at #12. I guess we'll have to see how the combine shakes out.

As well there should be, just an FYI ;D

Hilarious!

Mediator12
02-16-2009, 12:05 PM
I see Cushing as more of an ILB in the NFL. Move him inside with DJ, where he can call the plays and stuff the run.

I think that is where he has the most value as well. He could play the nickel very well, better than Rey, and Blitz like a banshee. If they envision him as an ILB in a 3-4 I would be less opposed to selecting him there, but his injury history really needs to be checked thoroughly.

TheReverend
02-16-2009, 12:09 PM
I think that is where he has the most value as well. He could play the nickel very well, better than Rey, and Blitz like a banshee. If they envision him as an ILB in a 3-4 I would be less opposed to selecting him there, but his injury history really needs to be checked thoroughly.

Wanna throw him in on the Raji bet then?

Mediator12
02-16-2009, 12:11 PM
Wanna throw him in on the Raji bet then?

I don't know, I actually get a choice this time Hilarious!

TheReverend
02-16-2009, 12:14 PM
I don't know, I actually get a choice this time Hilarious!

Strong point.

I'm revoking your rights to decide and I'll selectively bring up whatever circumstances result in me winning.

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 12:14 PM
I'm with you Montrose i am a bit gun shy myself.. more like shell shoked ahha

elsid13
02-16-2009, 12:18 PM
Solid pick but not someone I want at 12. I kinda hoping Denver either trades down or has the opperunity to pick Jenkins to play FS/CB.

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 12:20 PM
Solid pick but not someone I want at 12. I kinda hoping Denver either trades down or has the opperunity to pick Jenkins to play FS/CB.

Although i like Jenkins at CB. I am afraid to try him at FS. he is a afraid of contact. and reacts slowly to it at cb in the run game.

Hallside
02-16-2009, 12:21 PM
If Raji, Orakpo, and Brown are all off the board at 12, which looks quite likely, Cushing could actually be a nice combo of need and value. To my mind his only real competition at 12 in this scenario is Rey. Cushing's stock and Rey's are converging rapidly.

montrose
02-16-2009, 12:23 PM
I think that is where he has the most value as well. He could play the nickel very well, better than Rey, and Blitz like a banshee. If they envision him as an ILB in a 3-4 I would be less opposed to selecting him there, but his injury history really needs to be checked thoroughly.

Considering we're likely looking at a hybrid, wouldn't that increase Cush's value? He'd be a 3-down player for us, which I'm not sure if Rey is at this point. Part of my deal is that I really like Larsen as a 2-down player at ILB, and considering McDaniels endorsement and (according to someone I trust) Xanders leading the charge to get DJ resigned last summer - DJ looks safe. Cushing seems like a really natural fit to me. The injury history scares the crap out of me though. Maybe we luck out and a guy like Raji falls and we can use him as leverage to move down a few spots, still grab Cushing and then use our extra pick on a DL or S.

socalorado
02-16-2009, 12:23 PM
His injury history is really not in his kness if i remember correctly , but his shoulder and his ankle. He dislocated his shoulder in 2005. Seems to have fully recovered. He also had a ankle injury in 2007 which hampered him at times during the season. Thats it. I dont think there really has been any other issues i can think of. I may be wrong though.
He played early on at USC as a SAM and then his sophmore season as a stand up DE in a hybrid 3-4 "elephant" defense. He really played well there, but he seems more a true LB prospect. Then he was moved to SAM for good, but has played inside at times.

lex
02-16-2009, 12:32 PM
No way. Not at 12.

socalorado
02-16-2009, 12:34 PM
Cushing has a sculpted body with just 6 percent body fat, a result of fanatical workouts and the five meals a day he has designed by a nutritionist and delivered to him.
Former USC defensive back Terrell Thomas, now with the Giants, called Cushing's work ethic "top of the line."
"He feels he is the toughest SOB out there," Thomas said. "He feels nobody can block him. Once he gets one hit, he gets stronger and stronger. That is a mentality I loved about him."
But nothing has come easy. Cushing has had surgery on his shoulder, left knee and both ankles. And his cut physique has fueled rumors of steroid use.
The whispers began in high school, when Cushing was an All-American at Bergen Catholic and nearly single-handedly led the Crusaders to the 2004 Non-Public Group 4 title.
Then came the shoulder dislocation, which cost him five games as a freshman. He had surgery four days after USC lost to Texas in the national championship game. Photos taken shortly after the surgery showed a loss of definition, leading to a flurry of steroid accusations blazing across the Internet.
Those rumors still linger, even among pro scouts, despite Cushing's repeated denials.
"He would never put anything in his body that might hurt him," Frank Cushing said. "That's his temple."
Then came the incident in April 2006 when the police arrived at his off-campus apartment to arrest his then-roommate, quarterback Mark Sanchez.
They handcuffed Cushing and put him in the back of a squad car while cameras rolled. The footage was shown nationally, despite Cushing never being a part of the investigation and never being arrested.
"It was tough," Cushing said of his freshman year. "It was a lot of thinking about how I'm going to come back from this, and 'How did this happen?' But I got through it. I knew I would."
Cushing rebounded as a sophomore, becoming a second-team All-PAC 10 defensive end and earning the Rose Bowl Defensive MVP. He rebounded again this season, becoming a Lombardi Award semifinalist after being hobbled his junior year by a severely sprained ankle. (The award is given to the nation's top lineman or linebacker in Division I.)
There's nothing on the field that he fears. But he admits he will be anxious on draft day, waiting to hear his name called.
"I'll be mad every time someone is picked ahead of me," Cushing said. "That's just how I am."

http://www.northjersey.com/sports/No_bed_of_roses_for_Cushing.html?c=y&page=2
<!--startclickprintinclude--><!--endclickprintinclude--><!-- End of the main story body. -->

Hallside
02-16-2009, 12:35 PM
No way. Not at 12.

If Raji, Orakpo, and Brown are all off the board at 12, whom do you propose we draft?

Rey and Cushing are at a similar level in my eyes.

socalorado
02-16-2009, 12:36 PM
If Raji, Orakpo, and Brown are all off the board at 12, whom do you propose we draft?

Rey and Cushing are at a similar level in my eyes.

Oh boy! Here it comes!

BroncoMan4ever
02-16-2009, 12:42 PM
12 is a reach for Cushing. i like him but at 12 that is at least 10 slots higher than he should go.

cmhargrove
02-16-2009, 12:49 PM
If Raji, Orakpo, and Brown are all off the board at 12, whom do you propose we draft?

Rey and Cushing are at a similar level in my eyes.

In this order (depending upon availability):
1. Curry - can play ILB or OLB
2. Jenkins - we can release Bly
3. Knowshon Moreno - game changer at TB
4. Tyson Jackson - top notch D-line talent, draws constant double teams, he's a prototypical, natural position 3-4 DE.
5. Maualuga - strong interior run-stopper. Strongest interior blitzer available.
6. Crabtree - game changer, would give us the "greatest show on turf" with Marshall and Royal.
7. Maclin - ditto.

I would put these choices ahead of Cushing at #12 (with Raji, Orakpo, and Brown off the board). I think we can find a SOLB at a lesser price (if we don't already have one on the roster).

Hallside
02-16-2009, 01:11 PM
In this order (depending upon availability):
1. Curry - can play ILB or OLB
2. Jenkins - we can release Bly
3. Knowshon Moreno - game changer at TB
4. Tyson Jackson - top notch D-line talent, draws constant double teams, he's a prototypical, natural position 3-4 DE.
5. Maualuga - strong interior run-stopper. Strongest interior blitzer available.
6. Crabtree - game changer, would give us the "greatest show on turf" with Marshall and Royal.
7. Maclin - ditto.

I would put these choices ahead of Cushing at #12 (with Raji, Orakpo, and Brown off the board). I think we can find a SOLB at a lesser price (if we don't already have one on the roster).

I'd say Curry, Jenkins and Crabtree are extremely likely to be off the board at 12, though I'd take them there if I could obviously.

So that really cuts your list to: Moreno, Jackson, Rey, and Maclin (who might also be gone).

Moreno I'd be ok with, but I like other RBs better. Jackson is as big a reach as Cushing (though I also like him as a prospect). Maclin, I would strongly consider, but it's tough not to defer to D when it's close.

PRBronco
02-16-2009, 01:25 PM
My stance on Cushing is the same as it was for Taylor Mays, sure he looks awesome, and has shiny measurables, but where's the production? I know, blablabla defence loaded with stars. I actually like the guy as a player, but there's a huge risk of looking like an idiot spending the 12th overall pick on a player with 178 tackles in his whole college career.

Wesley Woodyard had that many in one game, true story.

bap454
02-16-2009, 01:28 PM
Cushing's peaked.

By most accounts Cushing was among the more impressive linebackers throughout the week of practice at the Senior Bowl. Rather than focusing on his athleticism and instincts on the field, however, scouts in the stands were buzzing about reports that Cushing spends thousands of dollars a month on nutritional supplements. While no one is claiming Cushing's supplements should be confused with illegal steroids, it does raise questions about how maxed out Cushing might be -- questions that could push the All-American down the board considering the top-end talent this year at linebacker.------As per CBS Sportsline.

While he is good ... by most accounts what you see now is what you get. No thanks at twelve. End of story.

cmhargrove
02-16-2009, 01:34 PM
I'd say Curry, Jenkins and Crabtree are extremely likely to be off the board at 12, though I'd take them there if I could obviously.

So that really cuts your list to: Moreno, Jackson, Rey, and Maclin (who might also be gone).

Moreno I'd be ok with, but I like other RBs better. Jackson is as big a reach as Cushing (though I also like him as a prospect). Maclin, I would strongly consider, but it's tough not to defer to D when it's close.

My main reason for liking Tyson Jackson at #12 (if our other guys are gone) is that he is already NFL ready at his position and looks better than any option on our roster. Right now, he looks like the most NFL ready 3-4 end in the entire draft.

No real change of position / technique.
He's already the right height/weight - not counting on "possible growth."
He competed very well in arguably the toughest conference in college football.
His position is really in our highest area of need (3 interior D-line spots).

I'd be fine with Cushing if Nolan thinks he's the guy, he's just not my idea of a worthy 12 pick.

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 01:51 PM
Hey montrose i found a good article on Sport illistrated.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/09/08/cushing.usc/

montrose
02-16-2009, 02:00 PM
Hey montrose i found a good article on Sport illistrated.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/09/08/cushing.usc/

Sounds like this dude brings the nasty. He and Larsen could be the Bash Brothers!

socalorado
02-16-2009, 02:02 PM
Hey montrose i found a good article on Sport illistrated.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/the_bonus/09/08/cushing.usc/

Not to sound like a homer, but its good to see a player articulate the pro press/fans ideology of the player.
"I really believe it's almost the American point of view now where people build people up just to see them fail. As records are made to be broken, heroes are made to fall. Love turns into jealousy."

"I hear the injury-prone thing and that's because they have nothing else to knock," he says

skpac1001
02-16-2009, 02:10 PM
Although i like Jenkins at CB. I am afraid to try him at FS. he is a afraid of contact. and reacts slowly to it at cb in the run game.

Not saying your wrong (I haven't really paid attention to Jenkins) but are you sure about this? Some scouting reports were making it sound like he was strong in run support.

Kaylore
02-16-2009, 02:40 PM
Not saying your wrong (I haven't really paid attention to Jenkins) but are you sure about this? Some scouting reports were making it sound like he was strong in run support.

If we took Jenkins at 12, I'd love it.

Elway777
02-16-2009, 02:41 PM
If cushing make it to the 2 round then draft him. I leaning toward Everette Brown or Rey Rey with the 12 pick. Maybe Cushing fall in draft because of injury history and the Broncos trades up to get him in second round.

socalorado
02-16-2009, 02:50 PM
If cushing make it to the 2 round then draft him. I leaning toward Everette Brown or Rey Rey with the 12 pick. Maybe Cushing fall in draft because of injury history and the Broncos trades up to get him in second round.

I just heard that REY REY is not going to do the positional drills at the combine. Just a rumor.

Kaylore
02-16-2009, 02:51 PM
I just heard that REY REY is not going to do the positional drills at the combine. Just a rumor.

That's the other thing I hate about USC players. They never do the drills. They show up, get weighed and then leave.

socalorado
02-16-2009, 02:52 PM
That's the other thing I hate about USC players. They never do the drills. They show up, get weighed and then leave.

SI.com's Tony Pauline expects USC MLB Rey Maualuga to skip the position workouts at next week's NFL Combine.

I dont know where he got this info, so it could just be BS, but i would be suprised if he didnt do them.

Rohirrim
02-16-2009, 03:38 PM
Cushing reminds of Romanowski more and more, every time I hear more about him. This guy plays the game with a fury. I don't see how any Bronco fan wouldn't want a guy like him in our front seven.

illbroncsfn
02-16-2009, 03:48 PM
Cushing reminds of Romanowski more and more, every time I hear more about him. This guy plays the game with a fury. I don't see how any Bronco fan wouldn't want a guy like him in our front seven.

great comparison- don't want Cushing at #12 unless he really is Romo...

socalorado
02-16-2009, 03:52 PM
great comparison- don't want Cushing at #12 unless he really is Romo...

He really is ROMO.
No really, he is!! I swear! On the REV's favorite coach, JoPa's grave! He really, really is ROMO! No lie! ;)

lex
02-16-2009, 05:02 PM
great comparison- don't want Cushing at #12 unless he really is Romo...

Even with the benefit of looking back and knowing how good Romo was, I still wouldnt use the 12th on him.

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 05:09 PM
Rey Rey wont work out at the combine. but he will most likely do the USC pro day.

lex
02-16-2009, 05:22 PM
If Raji, Orakpo, and Brown are all off the board at 12, whom do you propose we draft?

Rey and Cushing are at a similar level in my eyes.


It doesnt matter. If go back in time to 2000 with the benefit of knowing how good Brady was going to be, would you take him in the 1st round? Would you take him in the 1st even though every other team (without knowing how his career unfolded) would not take him before the 5th? I wouldnt. Id probably take him in the 5th...4th at the soonest if I got nervous.

Id take BPA. Its hard to answer your question without more information. Im not averse to trading down but I am averse to getting worked in a trade where we move down.

goldengopher1976
02-16-2009, 07:59 PM
Cushing reminds of Romanowski more and more, every time I hear more about him. This guy plays the game with a fury. I don't see how any Bronco fan wouldn't want a guy like him in our front seven.

I don't feel like looking it up, but I made this comparison a few weeks back in another thread. The comparison gets even more similar with the news that Cushing pumps himself full of supplements. Now all he needs is a Hyperbaric chamber and he'll be the second coming of Romo.

I wouldn't be disappointed with him @ 12, and would love him if we were able to trade down and get him.

montrose
02-16-2009, 10:46 PM
I don't know if Cushing will be the guy know that it looks like Boss may be back. We'll have to see.

s0phr0syne
02-17-2009, 09:36 AM
Montrose, I'm really glad you started this thread.

The last couple of weeks, I've been thinking that Cushing appears to be the best of the USC LBs. However, as many people have pointed out, taking him at 12 is considered a "reach"--I don't know what the hell that even means. It's not a reach when you're confident that you're getting a player. Drafting for potential is how you get players like Michael Huff, Jarvis Moss, and Vernon Davis--they're all "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" players.

One thing I do not understand is why people seem to undervalue SLB or SOLB prospects?

From what I understand, SAMs need to be able to shed blocks and attack the run, cover tight ends as they release downfield, and occasionally blitz the QB. Basically, the SAM, again from what I understand, has the most diverse responsibilities of all the LBs, and for that reason requires the most diverse skill set.

While it seems like a Weakside player needs to have all the athleticism in the world to rove around and get more freelancing in, the Strongside players need to have higher football IQ and maintain their discipline.

Again, this whole rant is based on my understanding, which clearly could be flawed. But if what I'm saying is true, it seems like finding a SLB or SOLB is the hardest task, and it's what we've lacked.

So, drafting Cushing in the 1st rnd (he's not going to last until the 2nd) could be the best decision for us, if other concerns (injury history) don't raise any red flags. We're uncertain about Boss's status, and Cushing provides us with a player that can step in at SOLB day one (like you said montrose), and if Boss comes back fully healthy, Cushing gives us a valuable reserve and potential WOLB (you said he's played DE before, right?).

socalorado
02-17-2009, 09:47 AM
Montrose, I'm really glad you started this thread.

The last couple of weeks, I've been thinking that Cushing appears to be the best of the USC LBs. However, as many people have pointed out, taking him at 12 is considered a "reach"--I don't know what the hell that even means. It's not a reach when you're confident that you're getting a player. Drafting for potential is how you get players like Michael Huff, Jarvis Moss, and Vernon Davis--they're all "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" players.

One thing I do not understand is why people seem to undervalue SLB or SOLB prospects?

From what I understand, SAMs need to be able to shed blocks and attack the run, cover tight ends as they release downfield, and occasionally blitz the QB. Basically, the SAM, again from what I understand, has the diverse responsibilities of all the LBs, and for that reason requires the most diverse skill set.

While it seems like a Weakside player needs to have all the athleticism in the world to rove around and get more freelancing in, the Strongside players need to have higher football IQ and maintain their discipline.

Again, this whole rant is based on my understanding, which clearly could be flawed. But if what I'm saying is true, it seems like finding a SLB or SOLB is the hardest task, and it's what we've lacked.

So, drafting Cushing in the 1st rnd (he's not going to last until the 2nd) could be the best decision for us, if other concerns (injury history) don't raise any red flags. We're uncertain about Boss's status, and Cushing provides us with a player that can step in at SOLB day one (like you said montrose), and if Boss comes back fully healthy, Cushing gives us a valuable reserve and potential WOLB (you said he's played DE before, right?).

I think alot of the "reach" crap will end after the combine, for a # of players. Always happens. Also, if Boss was to come back and be fully healthy and considered to be productive in Nolans hybrid, then Cushing just moves inside where he can play as well.

montrose
02-17-2009, 10:17 AM
Montrose, I'm really glad you started this thread.

Thanks!

The last couple of weeks, I've been thinking that Cushing appears to be the best of the USC LBs.

I've began hearing that from some of the "experts" who were at the Senior Bowl practices. I'm not ready to anoint one better than the other, although I do think Cushing may be a better fit for us in the immediate future.

However, as many people have pointed out, taking him at 12 is considered a "reach"--I don't know what the hell that even means. It's not a reach when you're confident that you're getting a player. Drafting for potential is how you get players like Michael Huff, Jarvis Moss, and Vernon Davis--they're all "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" players.

Every case is different. If you could get the same player later, than it was a reach. The best teams draft the best possible player at that spot. Now if Cushing is not the best player on the board at #12, he shouldn't be taken. With that, I'm sensing a Jerod Mayo-like ascension (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=67584 - I got major clowned on this last year) for Cushing that may make him a more reasonable value at #12. The reason, at least according to Pat Kirwan, is that with uncertainty about the future of the labor deal has made "sure things" a higher value than in the past - especially on defense seeing that Mayo and Willis have been the past two DROYs and were regarded as well-polished coming out.

One thing I do not understand is why people seem to undervalue SLB or SOLB prospects?

For one, a lot of teams take their SAM off the field on 3rd downs. Also, they're not your pass-rushers which drives up their value.

From what I understand, SAMs need to be able to shed blocks and attack the run, cover tight ends as they release downfield, and occasionally blitz the QB. Basically, the SAM, again from what I understand, has the diverse responsibilities of all the LBs, and for that reason requires the most diverse skill set.

This is true. Interestingly diverse skill sets don't necessarily drive up the value of your position. I'd make the argument that the three positions requiring the most versatile skill set are TE, SOLB and S - not coincidentally three of the lowest valued positions in football. It seems as though the NFL powers-that-be value extremely solid specific skills opposed to a jack-of-all-trades. I'll never understand that considering the impact a guy like Troy Polamalu can have, but my guess is that if you surveyed NFL execs they'd rank the value of positions into an order similar to this: 1) Quarterback 2) Pass Rusher (DE/OLB) 3) Left Tackle 4) Defensive Tackle 5) Middle Linebacker 6) Cornerback 7) Wide Receiver 8) Outside Linebacker (Non-pass rusher) 9) Running Back 10) Safety 11) Right Tackle 12) Tight End 13) Defensive End (Non-pass rusher) 14) Center/Guard.

While it seems like a Weakside player needs to have all the athleticism in the world to rove around and get more freelancing in, the Strongside players need to have higher football IQ and maintain their discipline.

I'd absolutely agree, which is why I still can't get over Nate Webster being our SAM in 2007.

Again, this whole rant is based on my understanding, which clearly could be flawed. But if what I'm saying is true, it seems like finding a SLB or SOLB is the hardest task, and it's what we've lacked.

I don't know if it's the hardest, but I think finding a solid player there is important. It doesn't seem like there are too many explosive SAMs out there. I could speculate because there just isn't the money out there for it. Looking back, a guy like Romo was a great SAM. He was explosive, made tons of plays and had a high Football IQ. Those guys are hard to find. Most teams are willing to settle for a 1st and 2nd down guy who can make the tackle, is okay in coverage and finds himself in the right position. My argument is that Nolan's 30-front asks a lot of the SAM, which is why Adalius Thomas was such a valuable member of their unit.

So, drafting Cushing in the 1st rnd (he's not going to last until the 2nd) could be the best decision for us, if other concerns (injury history) don't raise any red flags.

I agree, but the injury thing has to be cleared.

We're uncertain about Boss's status, and Cushing provides us with a player that can step in at SOLB day one (like you said montrose), and if Boss comes back fully healthy, Cushing gives us a valuable reserve and potential WOLB (you said he's played DE before, right?).

If Boss is gone Cushing starts at SOLB from day one. If Boss is here they could compete, or Cushing could play one of the ILB spots. His versatility makes him very valuable to a defense that needs a lot of help - although I don't think he's what we'll need at WOLB as that guy is a near exclusive pass-rusher in Nolan's scheme.

TheReverend
02-17-2009, 10:43 AM
Every case is different. If you could get the same player later, than it was a reach. The best teams draft the best possible player at that spot. Now if Cushing is not the best player on the board at #12, he shouldn't be taken. With that, I'm sensing a Jerod Mayo-like ascension (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=67584 - I got major clowned on this last year) for Cushing that may make him a more reasonable value at #12. The reason, at least according to Pat Kirwan, is that with uncertainty about the future of the labor deal has made "sure things" a higher value than in the past - especially on defense seeing that Mayo and Willis have been the past two DROYs and were regarded as well-polished coming out.

?

You got "clowned" because your selections for Denver made them sick and rightfully so, though you definitely nailed the targeted positions. Regardless, not a single person in that thread criticized you for your Jerod Mayo position.

montrose
02-17-2009, 11:32 AM
You got "clowned" because your selections for Denver made them sick and rightfully so, though you definitely nailed the targeted positions.

Remember, I did the draft based on who I thought would be taken, not necessarily who was the best pick (which I'm glad we took).

Regardless, not a single person in that thread criticized you for your Jerod Mayo position.

Bro you should've seen my PM Inbox.

TheReverend
02-17-2009, 11:38 AM
Remember, I did the draft based on who I thought would be taken, not necessarily who was the best pick (which I'm glad we took).



Bro you should've seen my PM Inbox.

Hopefully the hate messages were towards Desean and not Mayo going at 10. That thread is from mid april when Mayo had already established himself at the top half of the first round.

montrose
02-17-2009, 11:44 AM
Hopefully the hate messages were towards Desean and not Mayo going at 10. That thread is from mid april when Mayo had already established himself at the top half of the first round.

It was kind of a combo of both. I wouldn't call them hate messages, it's just that a lot of people still weren't buying Mayo as a top 10 pick. I had been pimping him as a guy I liked at #12 and the reaction I was getting is pretty similar to thinking about Cushing at #12 right now.

lex
02-17-2009, 12:19 PM
Thanks!



I've began hearing that from some of the "experts" who were at the Senior Bowl practices. I'm not ready to anoint one better than the other, although I do think Cushing may be a better fit for us in the immediate future.



Every case is different. If you could get the same player later, than it was a reach. The best teams draft the best possible player at that spot. Now if Cushing is not the best player on the board at #12, he shouldn't be taken. With that, I'm sensing a Jerod Mayo-like ascension (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=67584 - I got major clowned on this last year) for Cushing that may make him a more reasonable value at #12. The reason, at least according to Pat Kirwan, is that with uncertainty about the future of the labor deal has made "sure things" a higher value than in the past - especially on defense seeing that Mayo and Willis have been the past two DROYs and were regarded as well-polished coming out.



For one, a lot of teams take their SAM off the field on 3rd downs. Also, they're not your pass-rushers which drives up their value.



This is true. Interestingly diverse skill sets don't necessarily drive up the value of your position. I'd make the argument that the three positions requiring the most versatile skill set are TE, SOLB and S - not coincidentally three of the lowest valued positions in football. It seems as though the NFL powers-that-be value extremely solid specific skills opposed to a jack-of-all-trades. I'll never understand that considering the impact a guy like Troy Polamalu can have, but my guess is that if you surveyed NFL execs they'd rank the value of positions into an order similar to this: 1) Quarterback 2) Pass Rusher (DE/OLB) 3) Left Tackle 4) Defensive Tackle 5) Middle Linebacker 6) Cornerback 7) Wide Receiver 8) Outside Linebacker (Non-pass rusher) 9) Running Back 10) Safety 11) Right Tackle 12) Tight End 13) Defensive End (Non-pass rusher) 14) Center/Guard.



I'd absolutely agree, which is why I still can't get over Nate Webster being our SAM in 2007.



I don't know if it's the hardest, but I think finding a solid player there is important. It doesn't seem like there are too many explosive SAMs out there. I could speculate because there just isn't the money out there for it. Looking back, a guy like Romo was a great SAM. He was explosive, made tons of plays and had a high Football IQ. Those guys are hard to find. Most teams are willing to settle for a 1st and 2nd down guy who can make the tackle, is okay in coverage and finds himself in the right position. My argument is that Nolan's 30-front asks a lot of the SAM, which is why Adalius Thomas was such a valuable member of their unit.



I agree, but the injury thing has to be cleared.



If Boss is gone Cushing starts at SOLB from day one. If Boss is here they could compete, or Cushing could play one of the ILB spots. His versatility makes him very valuable to a defense that needs a lot of help - although I don't think he's what we'll need at WOLB as that guy is a near exclusive pass-rusher in Nolan's scheme.

Its not just that. Its also about impact and availability of a comparable player later. If, say, you have a WR and a SOLB at 12. Lets say there are SOLBs you could get in the 2nd who are comparable to what youre considering at 12. Meanwhile, lets say the drop off after the WR you are considering at 12 is huge. In that sense it makes more sense to take the WR. And also, lets say in that same scenario, by drafting a WR, you are more going to get a player that has greater impact than a SOLB based on the way the team usese the two positions schematically.

Elway777
02-17-2009, 04:11 PM
With Cushings injury history I would rather take Conner Barwin in the second or 3 round. Barwin could be exellent in coverage being a former Te. The Broncos take Rey Rey or Everette Brown with the 12 pick.

illbroncsfn
02-19-2009, 09:27 AM
currently Cushing is not the #12 VALUE type pick, this could all change after the combine. One thing for sure about B.Cushing is that he is a TRUE FOOTBALL PLAYER- which I believe is what the new regime of broncos brass is looking for....

Elway777
02-19-2009, 10:13 AM
currently Cushing is not the #12 VALUE type pick, this could all change after the combine. One thing for sure about B.Cushing is that he is a TRUE FOOTBALL PLAYER- which I believe is what the new regime of broncos brass is looking for.... If Cushing has a great combine then I might trade down to 20 or 21 then draft him. I don't see any way I would use the 12 pick on him with his history of injury.

Requiem
02-19-2009, 10:25 AM
I'd be dead if we took Cushing at #12.

FireFly
02-19-2009, 11:12 PM
Lots can change between now and the draft, but as things stand right now, I'd be fine with this pick at #12.

Like alot of people I'd rather see us drop back but this'd be fine if we didn't. :thumbsup: