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View Full Version : How the pats use their LB's from a pats fan


Broncos_OTM
02-14-2009, 01:15 PM
I want no credit in finding this i just thought it was interesting and thought i would pass it along.

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People forget that we tend to lump the Patriots LBs into the OLB/DE and the ILB category but there are really four separate and distinct profiles for each position. The Patriots can adapt but when considering drafting LBs, please think of what types they have ,and what types they need...

The ROLB is a pass rusher more than anything with a good but not great ability to turn the run. (think Colvin)

The Weak ILB or who plays next to the ROLB is the run stuffer position; (think Cox or TJ), he makes up for the ROLB's lesser run capability and usually stuffs the run tackle to tackle but he may cheat to helping the ROLB by shading in that direction.

The LILB or SILB (stronside ILB), is the combo coverage and run stuffing and inside blitz type of jack-of-all-trades and complete ILB, (think Phifer Bruschi prior 2005). He has lesser need to handle the run because the WILB and LOLB are so good at it, but he must be able to pick up the TE and backs crosssing from the usual strongside formation, hence the coverage aspect of his game.

Finally, there is the LOLB or strongside OLB/DE. This is the true "elephant" position. Since most teams line up their TE on this side and run in that direction they run at the LOLB. He must be able to play the run at him, turn the outside run in, and also be athletic enough to slow down a TE or back releasing into the pattern. And he must be a passrusher like the ROLB but probably with a more controlled power rush, rather than an an all-out speed rush. That is the toughest position candidate to find, as you want the prototype guy, big enough to stop the run, agile enough for some short diatance coverage/chucking, and yet power rush pass rushing. The Specifications call for a rare human being. The prototype is 6-5, (to block the passing lanes) 260+ pounds, 4.7 speed, athleticism, agility and pass rush skills. These types a few and far between. Willie Mcginest was drafted # 4 overall because they come along so infrequently. Others are Lawrence Taylor drafted #2, Andre Tippett, truly unique players. It will be every difficult to replace Willie. Of the three examples, only Tippett was drafted out of the first round, and he went at the very top of the second.

I 'd say the Patriots need and elephant or a LOLB, an WILB or two, and a ROLB, Bruschi is getting old so eventually they will need a SILB too. Four distincrt player types and they have but three proven ones on the roster now. Note that TBC rates as a ROLB candidate. Beisel is a potential SILB. Claridge ???

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/34174-linebacker-position-specifications.html

ayjackson
02-14-2009, 01:30 PM
I don't want to be a wet blanket here, but I don't think there's much to this. The BB defense is built around the concept that players' roles are interchangeable. The offense can't know who's rushing and who's dropping back into coverage on any given play. All LBs have to be solid against the run, the all must be able blitzers, and the all have to do a credible job in coverage. Naturally some LBs are better in different areas than others, but I highly doubt it's position-specific. We need three OLBs and three ILBs capable of playing whatever defense is called.

It seems like we're looking at the attributes at our current and recent former starters, and then making general blanket statements that this is what Belichick wants. That's confusing the cause with the effect. McGinest has been at OLB since Belichick's been here. Ditto Bruschi at ILB. How can we say Belichick prefers X at this position, when we've had one regular starter there?

This quote was a little further down. The thread is three years old now. I think if you look at the LBs in NE now, versatility is key. Adalius Thomas was the ROLB and Mike Vrabel the LOLB. They were there no matter what the O formation was (TE left or right). They are both strong pass rushers and both good run stoppers. They also have both played a lot of ILB in their careers. Mayo played almost every snap on defence at ILB and his role would change depending on down and distance. Bruschi and then Seau played down low on running downs, to the strong side of the formation.

Broncos_OTM
02-14-2009, 01:35 PM
With guys being capable blitzers wouldnt that make the Defense a zone blitz scheme?

2KBack
02-14-2009, 02:01 PM
i think it might be more useful to seek how Mike Nolan uses his linebackers

UberBroncoMan
02-14-2009, 02:14 PM
The prototype is 6-5, (to block the passing lanes) 260+ pounds, 4.7 speed, athleticism, agility and pass rush skills. These types a few and far between.

What's funny is that Jarvis Moss is 6-6, 265 and ran a 4.7... wouldn't it be nice if he turned out to fit this roll perfectly?

telluride
02-14-2009, 02:21 PM
What's funny is that Jarvis Moss is 6-6, 265 and ran a 4.7... wouldn't it be nice if he turned out to fit this roll perfectly?

Try 245lbs. And a weak 245 at that.

2KBack
02-14-2009, 03:18 PM
Try 245lbs. And a weak 245 at that.

there was a quote in an article near the ends of the season that he was near 260 now.

barryr
02-14-2009, 04:59 PM
In any 3-4 defense, the LB's are the ones who are typically going to get your QB pressures and sacks. The key is trying to confuse the OL as to who is coming and allowing free blitzers get to the QB.

El Minion
02-14-2009, 05:14 PM
I want no credit in finding this i just thought it was interesting and thought i would pass it along.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

People forget that we tend to lump the Patriots LBs into the OLB/DE and the ILB category but there are really four separate and distinct profiles for each position. The Patriots can adapt but when considering drafting LBs, please think of what types they have ,and what types they need...

The ROLB is a pass rusher more than anything with a good but not great ability to turn the run. (think Colvin)

The Weak ILB or who plays next to the ROLB is the run stuffer position; (think Cox or TJ), he makes up for the ROLB's lesser run capability and usually stuffs the run tackle to tackle but he may cheat to helping the ROLB by shading in that direction.

The LILB or SILB (stronside ILB), is the combo coverage and run stuffing and inside blitz type of jack-of-all-trades and complete ILB, (think Phifer Bruschi prior 2005). He has lesser need to handle the run because the WILB and LOLB are so good at it, but he must be able to pick up the TE and backs crosssing from the usual strongside formation, hence the coverage aspect of his game.

Finally, there is the LOLB or strongside OLB/DE. This is the true "elephant" position. Since most teams line up their TE on this side and run in that direction they run at the LOLB. He must be able to play the run at him, turn the outside run in, and also be athletic enough to slow down a TE or back releasing into the pattern. And he must be a passrusher like the ROLB but probably with a more controlled power rush, rather than an an all-out speed rush. That is the toughest position candidate to find, as you want the prototype guy, big enough to stop the run, agile enough for some short diatance coverage/chucking, and yet power rush pass rushing. The Specifications call for a rare human being. The prototype is 6-5, (to block the passing lanes) 260+ pounds, 4.7 speed, athleticism, agility and pass rush skills. These types a few and far between. Willie Mcginest was drafted # 4 overall because they come along so infrequently. Others are Lawrence Taylor drafted #2, Andre Tippett, truly unique players. It will be every difficult to replace Willie. Of the three examples, only Tippett was drafted out of the first round, and he went at the very top of the second.

I 'd say the Patriots need and elephant or a LOLB, an WILB or two, and a ROLB, Bruschi is getting old so eventually they will need a SILB too. Four distincrt player types and they have but three proven ones on the roster now. Note that TBC rates as a ROLB candidate. Beisel is a potential SILB. Claridge ???

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/34174-linebacker-position-specifications.html

IIRC, LT was a ROLB or weak-side LB, not L.OLB

Killericon
02-14-2009, 05:23 PM
I want this explanation from a 49ers fan.

oubronco
02-14-2009, 07:32 PM
WTF is up with the laughing B's

UberBroncoMan
02-14-2009, 08:37 PM
WTF is up with the laughing B's

They are called L OLB's in what he wrote and when you type L O L together it does LOL

watermock
02-14-2009, 10:04 PM
We are going to be worse on D than last year.

We have about 3 plasyers that fit.

UberBroncoMan
02-14-2009, 10:15 PM
We are going to be worse on D than last year.

We have about 3 plasyers that fit.

Do you remember our defense from last year?

I think we'll be better this coming year... after 2007 and 2008, I couldn't fathom us doing worse.

for LB's, Moss/Crowder - Woodyard/Williams - Larsen - Dumveril

Fits well.

For our NT Carlton Powell (we drafted him last year) could actually pull it off pretty well based on his past history.

I don't think we're as bad off as you'd think.

A healthy draft, some FA's and we'll be alright this year. Next year in FA/draft is where we should really see a big change.

Inkana7
02-14-2009, 10:17 PM
Mock's been pissy ever since Shanahan got fired.

snowspot66
02-15-2009, 07:21 AM
It's almost impossible to do worse than last year. Last year was a historically bad defense. Even if we had just a standard ****ty #32 defense we would have probably made the playoffs. We were that bad. We set historic lows for the franchise and for the league.

elsid13
02-15-2009, 07:30 AM
I want this explanation from a 49ers fan.

I did some research at 49er message boards (not a lot btw) and they were pretty hard on Nolan and his defense. Apparently he liked to mess with the defense and came up with some real crazy 5 nickle and dime package that didn't work. Plus he seemed to make the defense to complex for his team and when Samurai Mike took over he simplified the defense which help the entire team.

On side note Moss or Doom might Manny Larson role in Denver.

ayjackson
02-15-2009, 10:05 AM
I want this explanation from a 49ers fan.

Nolan was the head coach in SF. If it was his defence in SF, why wouldn't it be McD's defence here?

People seem to be ignorant to the fact that McDaniels spent his first 3-4 years in NE working with the defence. And people think Belichick is a defence guy, but he was the defacto offensive coordinator in McD's first year as OC. Josh has learnt everything in an organization where the Head Coach has his hands on everything. I'd bet he's the same way.

I think he hired Nolan, because he was the best fit from someone outside the Patriots organization to help build the defence that McD was most familiar with.

I'm sure Mike Nolan will have a lot of influence on decisions made, but McD got the job because he impressed Bowlen with his vision for the Broncos. I'm pretty sure that vision included defence.

Killericon
02-15-2009, 10:10 AM
Nolan was the head coach in SF. If it was his defence in SF, why wouldn't it be McD's defence here?

People seem to be ignorant to the fact that McDaniels spent his first 3-4 years in NE working with the defence. And people think Belichick is a defence guy, but he was the defacto offensive coordinator in McD's first year as OC. Josh has learnt everything in an organization where the Head Coach has his hands on everything. I'd bet he's the same way.

I think he hired Nolan, because he was the best fit from someone outside the Patriots organization to help build the defence that McD was most familiar with.

I'm sure Mike Nolan will have a lot of influence on decisions made, but McD got the job because he impressed Bowlen with his vision for the Broncos. I'm pretty sure that vision included defence.

You're probably right, but McDaniels has never RUN a defense. Meanwhile, that's what Nolan's job title is. I think that the defense will mainly be shaped by Mike Nolan.

elsid13
02-15-2009, 10:11 AM
Nolan was the head coach in SF. If it was his defence in SF, why wouldn't it be McD's defence here?

People seem to be ignorant to the fact that McDaniels spent his first 3-4 years in NE working with the defence. And people think Belichick is a defence guy, but he was the defacto offensive coordinator in McD's first year as OC. Josh has learnt everything in an organization where the Head Coach has his hands on everything. I'd bet he's the same way.

I think he hired Nolan, because he was the best fit from someone outside the Patriots organization to help build the defence that McD was most familiar with.

I'm sure Mike Nolan will have a lot of influence on decisions made, but McD got the job because he impressed Bowlen with his vision for the Broncos. I'm pretty sure that vision included defence.

All reports have Mckid teaching the coaches his offense system with him leaving the defense to Nolan and his staff. McDaniel most likely has idea what type of defense he wants but he letting Nolan implementing the strategy and scheme.

hades
02-15-2009, 10:18 AM
WTF is up with the laughing B's


That was the grade of the Denver LB's