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View Full Version : What the Hell happend to our CAP!?!?!?


UberBroncoMan
02-13-2009, 11:41 AM
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/feb/12/legwold-nfl-housecleaning-begins/

Anyone??? WTF happened???

Who the heck made the chart a while back that said we had $37 or so million in free cap.

Why does this say Colbert counts against our cap? I thought the Seahawks took his contract in FULL. I also thought Henry was off our cap after last year...

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 11:43 AM
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/feb/12/legwold-nfl-housecleaning-begins/

Anyone??? WTF happened???

Who the heck made the chart a while back that said we had $37 or so million in free cap.

Why does this say Colbert counts against our cap? I thought the Seahawks took his contract in FULL. I also thought Henry was off our cap after last year...

I think the article is pretty clear. You just have to understand it.

UberBroncoMan
02-13-2009, 11:45 AM
I think the article is pretty clear. You just have to understand it.

What? That we need to dump Robertson? Based on past articles it said we'd have around $46 mill once we dumped Robertson.

TonyR
02-13-2009, 11:46 AM
Now you see in black and white a major reason why Shanny had to go. And the Goodmans were also complicit.

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 11:46 AM
What? That we need to dump Robertson?

Yep

Taco John
02-13-2009, 11:47 AM
Now you see in black and white a major reason why Shanny had to go. And the Goodmans were also complicit.


::)

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 11:48 AM
Now you see in black and white a major reason why Shanny had to go. And the Goodmans were also complicit.

Uh, now this is a strange post. Actually, I'd say Shanny and Co. did a pretty good job structuring most of the contracts.

However, it is apparent that you hate Shanny, so we'll just agree to disagree.:thumbsup:

TonyR
02-13-2009, 11:49 AM
I think the article is pretty clear. You just have to understand it.

Yes, it's very clear that our track record in FA is abysmal. Niko and Colbert last year are unacceptable mistakes, particularly when coupled with Manuel and McCree on top of the disasters of prior years (most relevant now being Travis Henry).

TonyR
02-13-2009, 11:50 AM
Uh, now this is a strange post. Actually, I'd say Shanny and Co. did a pretty good job structuring most of the contracts.

However, it is apparent that you hate Shanny, so we'll just agree to disagree.

Yes, those Colbert and Niko contracts were huge successes, particularly when you consider the fact that we outbid only ourselves.

AbileneBroncoFan
02-13-2009, 11:51 AM
Uh, now this is a strange post. Actually, I'd say Shanny and Co. did a pretty good job structuring most of the contracts.

However, it is apparent that you hate Shanny, so we'll just agree to disagree.:thumbsup:

Not as good as the NE staff. Hopefully we will make personnel decisions similar to how they have. Hopefully.

UberBroncoMan
02-13-2009, 11:52 AM
I just want to know how the hell it was slated that we were so high in free Cap before this article... I mean we were the 3rd best team in cap situation.

MplsBronco
02-13-2009, 11:53 AM
Now you see in black and white a major reason why Shanny had to go. And the Goodmans were also complicit.

Exactly, and people have their panties in a bunch because the Broncos are making changes. Changes that need to happen for the sake of the franchise. Shanny and Co were running this team into the ground.

TonyR
02-13-2009, 11:55 AM
TEAM-BY-TEAM CAP NUMBERS
Posted by Mike Florio on February 11, 2009, 12:25 p.m. EST
We’ve gotten our mitts on the current team-by-team salary figures for 2009.

But while the 2009 salary cap will be $124 million, keep in mind that some teams’ limits will go up based on “likely to be earned” incentives from 2008 that weren’t reached, and thus carry over to 2009.

Likewise, a given team’s cap limit could be reduced based on “not likely to be earned” incentives that were reached in 2008, and thus must be accounted for against the 2009 cap.

Whatever the specific limit applicable to a given team, all teams must be in compliance with it by the close of business on February 26, 2009.

The current list by team, rounded to the nearest million, appears after the jump.


Cardinals: $84 million.

Falcons: $101 million.

Ravens: $104 million.

Bills: $98 million.

Panthers: $108 million.

Bears: $104 million.

Bengals: $95 million.

Browns: $113 million.

Cowboys: $121 million.

Broncos: $107 million.

Lions: $85 million.

Packers: $95 million.

Texans: $101 million.

Colts: $128 million.

Jaguars: $110 million.

Chiefs: $86 million.

Dolphins: $101 million.

Vikings: $105 million.

Patriots: $119 millon.

Saints: $130 million.

Giants: $112 million.

Jets: $125 million.

Raiders: $116 million.

Eagles: $93 million.

Steelers: $105 million.

Chargers: $107 million.

49ers: $111 million.

Seahawks: $103 million.

Rams: $109 million.

Buccaneers: $86 million.

Titans: $93 million.

Redskins: $131 million.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/02/11/team-by-team-cap-numbers/

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 11:56 AM
Yes, it's very clear that our track record in FA is abysmal. Niko and Colbert last year are unacceptable mistakes, particularly when coupled with Manuel and McCree on top of the disasters of prior years (most relevant now being Travis Henry).

I thought this thread was about cap space, not nit picking FA choices. Your going off on a tangent that just demonstrates your preoccupation with Shanahan.

elsid13
02-13-2009, 11:58 AM
Not as good as the NE staff. Hopefully we will make personnel decisions similar to how they have. Hopefully.

Actually according to this http://www.patscap.com/ which is this board (http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/) Eddie Mac

According to my figures the Patriots' 2009 cap figure is $123,062,338 with 50 signed or tendered players. The 2009 salary cap has been reported to be $123,000,000. I am projecting that the Patriots' 2009 adjusted cap will be $127,000,000. So I have the Pats under their adjusted cap by about $3.9 million. Please note that my numbers do NOT include the cap impact of expected tenders to the Patriots' ERFAs and RFAs or the escalators that may been reached by Logan Mankins, Billy Yates, David Thomas, Ryan O'Callaghan, Ross Hochstein, or LeKevin Smith. My numbers presume that Stephen Gostkowski has reached his escalator and that Jarvis Green has done enough to have earn his 2009 roster bonuses. My numbers also presume that when Ellis Hobbs, Ben Watson, Vince Wilfork, and Nick Kaczur reached their escalators for the 2008 season that they also increased their 2009 salaries by at least the same amount. There is a good chance the aforementioned quartet have earned more.
DISCLAIMERS - My numbers are a snapshot in time. Things will change between the as of date and a future date.

elsid13
02-13-2009, 12:01 PM
I just want to know how the hell it was slated that we were so high in free Cap before this article... I mean we were the 3rd best team in cap situation.

Eddie Mac has the number and he usually really close. He project us at 29M under before restructuring or releases. The RMN article is still claiming the 14M Robinson number which when Eddie Mac called them on it they retracted in email but not in print

TonyR
02-13-2009, 12:01 PM
I thought this thread was about cap space, not nit picking FA choices. Your going off on a tangent that just demonstrates your preoccupation with Shanahan.

Please see post #13. Also, to me it's fairly obvious that players whose bad contracts eat up cap space are very relevant in any discussion about cap space. The OP linked to an article that mentioned these same players and issues. Please follow along and stop being so sensitive about Mikey Mastermind.

bombquixote
02-13-2009, 12:03 PM
$10 mil after the first round of cuts, with several big money contracts on players that will either renegotiate or be cut is not that bad. We'll have close to $35 mil to work with when all is said and done. Or at least that's the rough number I wrangled out of this article. We're fine, moneywise.

montrose
02-13-2009, 12:06 PM
So, given all that, the Broncos are expected to opt for some short-term pain by releasing players they don't believe are giving them the value they want and simply living with the "dead money" - charges on the cap for players no longer on the roster.

This is what I thought would happen. We take advantage of our cap space by purging the contracts of guys who don't fit the new era of Broncos football. Immediate players who pop into my head are Robertson, Niko, Winborn, Boss, Manual and Engelberger. Other names I wouldn't be shocked at all to see let go include Moss, Crowder, Bly, Stokley, Graham and Hamilton. I could also see Champ and/or Dumervil moved in a trade.

This isn't to speak negatively of all the players listed above, but simply the fact that we are looking at a complete new regime who will be looking for different types of players and have no attachment to any of the guys on the current roster. To have the cap space the Broncos do, and considering we're making a clean break into a new era, this is time to take the dead-cap money hits and free ourselves for the future.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 12:12 PM
Yes, those Colbert and Niko contracts were huge successes, particularly when you consider the fact that we outbid only ourselves.

Yeah, they really broke the bank on those two.......

AbileneBroncoFan
02-13-2009, 12:15 PM
Actually according to this http://www.patscap.com/ which is this board (http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/) Eddie Mac

According to my figures the Patriots' 2009 cap figure is $123,062,338 with 50 signed or tendered players. The 2009 salary cap has been reported to be $123,000,000. I am projecting that the Patriots' 2009 adjusted cap will be $127,000,000. So I have the Pats under their adjusted cap by about $3.9 million. Please note that my numbers do NOT include the cap impact of expected tenders to the Patriots' ERFAs and RFAs or the escalators that may been reached by Logan Mankins, Billy Yates, David Thomas, Ryan O'Callaghan, Ross Hochstein, or LeKevin Smith. My numbers presume that Stephen Gostkowski has reached his escalator and that Jarvis Green has done enough to have earn his 2009 roster bonuses. My numbers also presume that when Ellis Hobbs, Ben Watson, Vince Wilfork, and Nick Kaczur reached their escalators for the 2008 season that they also increased their 2009 salaries by at least the same amount. There is a good chance the aforementioned quartet have earned more.
DISCLAIMERS - My numbers are a snapshot in time. Things will change between the as of date and a future date.

If that is our cap situation after we have gone to 4 Super Bowls in 7 years and won 3 of them, then I'll be ok with that. The fact is, they don't go out dumping $80 million dollars on one free agent, and they aren't afraid to tell a player asking for too much money to piss off. They also draft extremely well and always have young guys step up and play well enough for them to keep on winning.

elsid13
02-13-2009, 12:20 PM
If that is our cap situation after we have gone to 4 Super Bowls in 7 years and won 3 of them, then I'll be ok with that. The fact is, they don't go out dumping $80 million dollars on one free agent, and they aren't afraid to tell a player asking for too much money to piss off. They also draft extremely well and always have young guys step up and play well enough for them to keep on winning.

Not really. The Pats have very little depth. The LB are aging rapidly, they have no youth at WR, and only one young RB (Maroney). The secondary isn't very good either age wise.

theAPAOps5
02-13-2009, 12:20 PM
Yeah, they really broke the bank on those two.......

I know right! He is talking like they were getting top 10 pick type contracts! LOL

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 12:24 PM
I know right! He is talking like they were getting top 10 pick type contracts! LOL

Had we not signed them, we'd have enough money to go out and grab a different scrub!

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 12:27 PM
Pos. Player 2009 cap figure
DT Dewayne Robertson $16,000,000
CB Champ Bailey $13,668,525
LB D.J. Williams $11,634,500
CB Dre' Bly $6,800,000
TE Daniel Graham $6,650,000
G Ben Hamilton $4,484,000
LB Boss Bailey $3,855,000
WR Brandon Stokley $3,785,416
RB *Travis Henry $3,600,000
LB Niko Koutouvides $3,061,666
QB Jay Cutler $2,712,500
LB Jamie Winborn $2,250,000
DE John Engelberger $2,185,000
T Ryan Clady $2,141,250
DE Jarvis Moss $1,900,000
WR *Keary Colbert $1,666,667
C Casey Wiegmann $1,350,000
S Marquand Manuel $1,333,333

Henry and Colbert. That's just ugly.

Also Manuel, Winborn, Engleberger, Koutouvides, Boss Bailey, Bly and Dewayne are all probably gone.

Popps
02-13-2009, 12:35 PM
Pos. Player 2009 cap figure
DT Dewayne Robertson $16,000,000
CB Champ Bailey $13,668,525
LB D.J. Williams $11,634,500
CB Dre' Bly $6,800,000
TE Daniel Graham $6,650,000
G Ben Hamilton $4,484,000
LB Boss Bailey $3,855,000
WR Brandon Stokley $3,785,416
RB *Travis Henry $3,600,000
LB Niko Koutouvides $3,061,666
QB Jay Cutler $2,712,500
LB Jamie Winborn $2,250,000
DE John Engelberger $2,185,000
T Ryan Clady $2,141,250
DE Jarvis Moss $1,900,000
WR *Keary Colbert $1,666,667
C Casey Wiegmann $1,350,000
S Marquand Manuel $1,333,333

Henry and Colbert. That's just ugly.

Also Manuel, Winborn, Engleberger, Koutouvides, Boss Bailey, Bly and Dewayne are all probably gone.

LB Niko Koutouvides $3,061,666

WR *Keary Colbert $1,666,667

S Marquand Manuel $1,333,333

DE John Engelberger $2,185,000

DE Jarvis Moss $1,900,000

RB *Travis Henry $3,600,000

LB Boss Bailey $3,855,000


Sweet, feathery Christ.

... and I'm supposed to be crying a river because the guys responsible for this are leaving town?

Hotrod
02-13-2009, 12:37 PM
LB Niko Koutouvides $3,061,666

WR *Keary Colbert $1,666,667

S Marquand Manuel $1,333,333

DE John Engelberger $2,185,000

DE Jarvis Moss $1,900,000

RB *Travis Henry $3,600,000

LB Boss Bailey $3,855,000


Sweet, feathery Christ.

... and I'm supposed to be crying a river because the guys responsible for this are leaving town?


That is ugly

eddie mac
02-13-2009, 12:44 PM
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2009/feb/12/legwold-nfl-housecleaning-begins/

Anyone??? WTF happened???

Who the heck made the chart a while back that said we had $37 or so million in free cap.

Why does this say Colbert counts against our cap? I thought the Seahawks took his contract in FULL. I also thought Henry was off our cap after last year...

The caproom is irrelevant as is that Robertson figure of $16m because not $1 of it is guaranteed. He wont see 25% of that money.

I'll update my thread when a mod can change it so it can be edited.

eddie mac
02-13-2009, 12:48 PM
That cap number of DJ's also makes it look like the majority of his guarantees are hitting in the first year. That is good in terms of the long-term aspect of $$ but not good for fans looking big FA's in here this offseason.

There's also the fact Pat has $10m to set aside for coaches who've already left the building and another $5m in payments deferred for Bly and Graham.

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 12:49 PM
Also remember $1,000,000, while a lot of actual money, is a pittance against the cap for a player. If you divided up the cap $ amount per player amongst all 53 players, it's about $2,390,000 per player.

TonyR
02-13-2009, 12:58 PM
Henry and Colbert. That's just ugly.


Don't tell Rev and Apa. They apparantly find these low $ millions to be insignificant. That or they just enjoy breaking my balls. Maybe both.

Rohirrim
02-13-2009, 12:59 PM
Mike deserved to get fired just for the Henry deal. :oyvey:

eddie mac
02-13-2009, 12:59 PM
Pos. Player 2009 cap figure
DT Dewayne Robertson $16,000,000
CB Champ Bailey $13,668,525
LB D.J. Williams $11,634,500
CB Dre' Bly $6,800,000
TE Daniel Graham $6,650,000
G Ben Hamilton $4,484,000
LB Boss Bailey $3,855,000
WR Brandon Stokley $3,785,416
RB *Travis Henry $3,600,000
LB Niko Koutouvides $3,061,666
QB Jay Cutler $2,712,500
LB Jamie Winborn $2,250,000
DE John Engelberger $2,185,000
T Ryan Clady $2,141,250
DE Jarvis Moss $1,900,000
WR *Keary Colbert $1,666,667
C Casey Wiegmann $1,350,000
S Marquand Manuel $1,333,333

Henry and Colbert. That's just ugly.

Also Manuel, Winborn, Engleberger, Koutouvides, Boss Bailey, Bly and Dewayne are all probably gone.


Compared to the $30m in dead cap room last year it's a remarkable improvement. At present we only have about $6m in dead cap room for 09. I anticipate that figure wont go much above $10m when all is said and done.

TonyR
02-13-2009, 01:00 PM
That is ugly

Yes, and imagine being Pat Bowlen writing those checks totalling $17.5 million for this garbage. Good times. And you wonder why he's pulling the trigger and barely flinching.

theAPAOps5
02-13-2009, 01:25 PM
Don't tell Rev and Apa. They apparantly find these low $ millions to be insignificant. That or they just enjoy breaking my balls. Maybe both.


By now you should know that is what I am doing.

gyldenlove
02-13-2009, 01:31 PM
Remember the salary cap for us is about 127 million, add to that Robertsons wildly incorrect salary cap number and we are in pretty good shape without cutting anyone.

SportinOne
02-13-2009, 01:31 PM
Whatever..

It doesn't matter either way. We are not signing Peppers or Haynesworth, so we might as well invest in rookies. Build from within, that's what you do.

bpc
02-13-2009, 01:50 PM
Whatever..

It doesn't matter either way. We are not signing Peppers or Haynesworth, so we might as well invest in rookies. Build from within, that's what you do.

Unless you have gaping holes at 2 safety spots, 1 CB spot, 2 or 3 of the LB spots in a 3-4 defense, spots on the defensive line for NT's and DE/DT's along with no proven HB in our offense per say.

I'm okay passing up defensive linemen this FA period. I find it hard to dole out money to guys that will just be taking up blocks. Their ego's will be too big and they most likely will be getting paid too much for what they are doing. There are a handful of players in the secondary and at the LB level that I think we should go after though. If we are smart, that is what we should do. Use the draft to stock up on front 7 players in our defense and just understand, we're probably a year away from having a major NT prospect. Maybe that comes from the draft next season, maybe in free agency with a guy like Vince Woolfork.

We need to take steps to solidify this team and even at 107 million, that puts 18 million under the salary cap. We can easily land some targets with that amount. If they are counting Roberson's deal, we should have even more room to play with.

Bowlen said all of his moves were directed at winning a super bowl now. Firing Shanahan, hiring McNugget, building a new stadium so he had revenue to pay these guys to come to Denver. Now it's time to put up or shut up. If we have room to bring in solutions to our problems, we need to do it. If not, Pat is just paying lip service to us all and is not actually concerned with winning super bowls RIGHT now.

CEH
02-13-2009, 04:14 PM
What happened to our cap? Nothing happened because no one knows what the true number was to begin with. Only Xanders.

Funny how 7 of the top 10 are either defensive or dead money.
Pretty ugly .

I suspect this year will be about the draft and cleansing the system of the garbage the Goodmans and Shanahan brought in via FA/trade

Think 7 out of 10 in Indy or New Orlean is defense?
Think 7 out of 10 in Balt or Tenn is offense?

This is so out of whack

peacepipe
02-13-2009, 04:26 PM
That cap number of DJ's also makes it look like the majority of his guarantees are hitting in the first year. That is good in terms of the long-term aspect of $$ but not good for fans looking big FA's in here this offseason.

There's also the fact Pat has $10m to set aside for coaches who've already left the building and another $5m in payments deferred for Bly and Graham.coaches salary are niether here nor there due to the fact they don't count for or against the cap. Coaches salaries have no bareing on the cap.

eddie mac
02-13-2009, 04:33 PM
coaches salary are niether here nor there due to the fact they don't count for or against the cap. Coaches salaries have no bareing on the cap.

Yes but they certainly have a bearing on Bowlen's cash flow and the planned expenditure on the team for 2009 and that's the important thing nowadays. The salary cap doesn't mean a thing anymore.

More and more teams outside the big markets who are feeling the credit pinch will now tend to go the way of the Buffalo Bills i.e cash to cap.

Looks like Denver are going that way too with DJ's heavily frontloaded new contract with over $11.5m of $32m total hitting in the first year of 5.

ZONA
02-14-2009, 12:13 PM
Henry and Colbert. That's just ugly.

Also Manuel, Winborn, Engleberger, Koutouvides, Boss Bailey, Bly and Dewayne are all probably gone.


I can live with keeping Winborn and Bly if we have to keep some of these guys. But I would for sure cut Boss, Manuel and Niko as soon as possible. Robertson probably too but I think he can actually produce given the right coaches and defense. Even Berger Boy could stand to be a rotation guy.

Henry was the worst signing in years.

We've just made some pathetic defensive signings over the past 5 years. From the Browncos to Boss to tweedle dee and tweedle dum (Manuel & Mcree) to Niko. That is just horrific. These guys shouldn't be in the NFL let alone on the Broncos.

Dedhed
02-14-2009, 02:28 PM
I know right! He is talking like they were getting top 10 pick type contracts! LOLUm, Niko's cap # > Cutler's cap #

oubronco
02-14-2009, 03:09 PM
Broncos' free agents not drawing much interest
By Dan Parr
Feb. 14, 2009

The Broncos have 11 players who will become free agents Feb. 27, but the team is in no hurry to re-sign any of them, we hear. Team insiders say there are no high-priority players in the bunch, and it’s conceivable that none of them will be back with the team for the 2009 season. The soon-to-be free agents include mostly past-their-prime veterans and a few younger players who have had mostly nondescript careers. A few of them, including RB Michael Pittman and MLB Nate Webster, could end up back with the Broncos on short-term, low-risk deals late in the spring if no other team shows any interest and Denver still has some spending money left over. Head coach Josh McDaniels’ club will be well below the cap this offseason, and sources say they expect the team to go after at least one high-priced free agent.

Kaylore
02-14-2009, 06:27 PM
Broncos' free agents not drawing much interest
By Dan Parr
Feb. 14, 2009

The Broncos have 11 players who will become free agents Feb. 27, but the team is in no hurry to re-sign any of them, we hear. Team insiders say there are no high-priority players in the bunch, and it’s conceivable that none of them will be back with the team for the 2009 season. The soon-to-be free agents include mostly past-their-prime veterans and a few younger players who have had mostly nondescript careers. A few of them, including RB Michael Pittman and MLB Nate Webster, could end up back with the Broncos on short-term, low-risk deals late in the spring if no other team shows any interest and Denver still has some spending money left over. Head coach Josh McDaniels’ club will be well below the cap this offseason, and sources say they expect the team to go after at least one high-priced free agent.
Interesting. Where did you get this little tidbit?

SpringStein
02-14-2009, 06:58 PM
Interesting. Where did you get this little tidbit?

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+West/Denver/WWHI/2009/wwhi021409.htm

Inkana7
02-14-2009, 09:39 PM
"The Way We Hear It" is usually pretty informed.

BroncoBuff
02-14-2009, 11:01 PM
If he is at all suited to a 3-4, I think we should give Boss one more pre-season to show something.

Broncoman13
02-15-2009, 03:23 AM
Pos. Player 2009 cap figure
DT Dewayne Robertson $16,000,000
CB Champ Bailey $13,668,525
LB D.J. Williams $11,634,500
CB Dre' Bly $6,800,000
TE Daniel Graham $6,650,000
G Ben Hamilton $4,484,000
LB Boss Bailey $3,855,000
WR Brandon Stokley $3,785,416
RB *Travis Henry $3,600,000
LB Niko Koutouvides $3,061,666
QB Jay Cutler $2,712,500
LB Jamie Winborn $2,250,000
DE John Engelberger $2,185,000
T Ryan Clady $2,141,250
DE Jarvis Moss $1,900,000
WR *Keary Colbert $1,666,667
C Casey Wiegmann $1,350,000
S Marquand Manuel $1,333,333

Henry and Colbert. That's just ugly.

Also Manuel, Winborn, Engleberger, Koutouvides, Boss Bailey, Bly and Dewayne are all probably gone.



Robertson, Bly, Graham, Boss, Niko, Winborn, Engleberger combine for right around $40m! Not saying we don't need any of those guys and who knows how much they count against the cap if they are released... but that is a lot of money for players that either don't quite fit the new plan or don't stand out in terms of general on-field play.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-15-2009, 07:22 AM
Yeah, they really broke the bank on those two.......

They gave $7million to a guy who couldn't get on the field when every starting linebacker was out with injury.

So, yes, I'd say that's to be considered "breaking the bank."

We also gave a pretty good signing bonus to a 5th string WR while bidding against ourselves for the rights to get him. Genius.

TheElusiveKyleOrton
02-15-2009, 07:25 AM
LB Niko Koutouvides $3,061,666

WR *Keary Colbert $1,666,667

S Marquand Manuel $1,333,333

DE John Engelberger $2,185,000

DE Jarvis Moss $1,900,000

RB *Travis Henry $3,600,000

LB Boss Bailey $3,855,000


Sweet, feathery Christ.

... and I'm supposed to be crying a river because the guys responsible for this are leaving town?

I could see us giving Boss and Moss a stay of execution. Especially with Moss, I don't think you drop a first round pick, who you've already invested so much in, until you're absolutely certain that he won't work out.

The guy has been a beast in the past, and he's still young. Hopefully he can turn it around here.

eddie mac
02-15-2009, 10:27 AM
Robertson, Bly, Graham, Boss, Niko, Winborn, Engleberger combine for right around $40m! Not saying we don't need any of those guys and who knows how much they count against the cap if they are released... but that is a lot of money for players that either don't quite fit the new plan or don't stand out in terms of general on-field play.

Summary

Robertson=$0m accelerates=$16m saved
Bly=$9.45m accelerates=$2.65m lost
Graham=$9.75m accelerates=$3.1m lost
Boss=$3.44m accelerates=$400k gained
Koutouvides=$1.33m accelerates=$1.7m gained
Winborn=$0m accelerates=$2.25m gained
Engelberger=$500k accelerates=$1.685m gained

So in summary if we traded/released all the players listed above we'd increase our caproom by approx $16.36m.

More importantly we'd increase our cash kitty for 2009 by over $32m.

There would then be $24.4m of further dead cap space on our books for 2009 but as Legwold already said on RMN with a system change and underperforming players the Broncos wont have any issues about leaving dead room on the cap in 09 in order to restock their depth chart.

Elway777
02-15-2009, 11:02 AM
Summary

Robertson=$0m accelerates=$16m saved
Bly=$9.45m accelerates=$2.65m lost
Graham=$9.75m accelerates=$3.1m lost
Boss=$3.44m accelerates=$400k gained
Koutouvides=$1.33m accelerates=$1.7m gained
Winborn=$0m accelerates=$2.25m gained
Engelberger=$500k accelerates=$1.685m gained

So in summary if we traded/released all the players listed above we'd increase our caproom by approx $16.36m.

More importantly we'd increase our cash kitty for 2009 by over $32m.

There would then be $24.4m of further dead cap space on our books for 2009 but as Legwold already said on RMN with a system change and underperforming players the Broncos wont have any issues about leaving dead room on the cap in 09 in order to restock their depth chart. No way the Broncos cut Graham. Graham is like having 3 offensive tackles. I also think Winborn stay as a special teams ace.I also think Bly stays for at least one more year. If the Broncos are 27 million in cap space then after cuts it should be about 47 million.

CEH
02-15-2009, 11:28 AM
The guy I'm interested in is BHam at $4.4 MM. Is he really worth that much?
Not knowing how Lick graded out so if I had to guess he might end up at the top of my cut list along with Engleberger, Niko, Winborn (he's already been released by Nolan once ). Those 4 alone + a Bly /DRob restructure would save us ~10-12MM which I'd rather allocate to a big time defensive FA who has already established himself as a difference maker.
Boss I believe had microfracture surgery so I'd work out an injury settlement with him. He can't stay healthy so we need to cut our losses with him right now. Champ knows his brother is a tissue paper athlete so no problems there

TonyR
02-15-2009, 11:31 AM
No way the Broncos cut Graham.

Maybe. But his $6.65 million cap number might dictate either a restructure or cut. He's a bit of a luxury otherwise.

Inkana7
02-15-2009, 11:32 AM
Graham is not a luxury. He's an essential part of the offense.

TonyR
02-15-2009, 12:16 PM
Graham is not a luxury.

You show me a team with a blocking TE anywhere close to $6.65M against their cap and I'll agree with you.

UberBroncoMan
02-15-2009, 12:33 PM
You show me a team with a blocking TE anywhere close to $6.65M against their cap and I'll agree with you.

He showed in college (and this year) that he can catch... the man was a huge receiving threat in college and only just this year (during the 2nd half) was he finally given a chance to show what he could do. Guys are quoted as saying they hate trying to tackle the guy... remember Cleavland?

He's everything you want in a TE... not Shannon Sharpe/Tony Gonzalez level, but he's damn good.

Inkana7
02-15-2009, 01:00 PM
You show me a team with a blocking TE anywhere close to $6.65M against their cap and I'll agree with you.

He was a huge asset in the passing game in the 2nd half this year. He's not just a blocking TE.

gyldenlove
02-15-2009, 01:22 PM
Why take huge cap hits this year when you can cut people for free in 2010?

If you are going to have 10 million in dead money in 2009 when there is no cap in 2010 and thus no penalty for cutting players who are getting into backloaded money, you are just not thinking right.

It makes sense to keep both Graham and Bly this year if they are willing to take marginal pay cuts, it will be cheaper in cap room anyway and if they are willing to leave some cash on the table they can stay. By having high salaries this year they give themselves better options next year anyway as the 20% raise cap comes into play during an uncapped year.

BroncoBuff
02-15-2009, 01:29 PM
He showed in college (and this year) that he can catch... the man was a huge receiving threat in college and only just this year (during the 2nd half) was he finally given a chance to show what he could do. Guys are quoted as saying they hate trying to tackle the guy... remember Cleavland?

He's everything you want in a TE... not Shannon Sharpe/Tony Gonzalez level, but he's damn good.

Exactly. Just because we choose not to throw much to him does not mean he's not a recieving threat. He caught 5 TDs in the first 6 games from Tom Brady in 2004. He'd be a first down conversion-machine if we used him like a Mark Bavaro - in the middle of the field. He might be our best red zone reciever, too.

TonyR
02-15-2009, 01:38 PM
It makes sense to keep both Graham and Bly this year if they are willing to take marginal pay cuts, it will be cheaper in cap room anyway and if they are willing to leave some cash on the table they can stay. By having high salaries this year they give themselves better options next year anyway as the 20% raise cap comes into play during an uncapped year.

I agree with this. People think I'm saying Graham isn't good which isn't at all what I'm saying. I'm saying he has too high of a cap number this year, the 5th highest on the team. What I think doesn't matter, but my hunch is the team will look long and hard at that cap number and very possibly ask him to restructure, and if he won't then they'll consider letting him go.

Popcorn Sutton
02-15-2009, 01:57 PM
You show me a team with a blocking TE anywhere close to $6.65M against their cap and I'll agree with you.

Let me get this straight. An offensive tackle who's only responsibility is to stay in and "block" is worth of 6-8 million per year but Daniel Graham who has proven he can block with the best tackles in the league and is a respectable receiver is way overpaid?

eddie mac
02-15-2009, 03:02 PM
Dead cap room is only relevant to teams who are close to the cap or are about to make a major push in free agency and need the available caproom.

The only reason Denver will be cutting any of the players I've mentioned in the list is due to one or both of 2 reasons.

1. Their production doesn't equal their cash cost in 2009 (Cap hit is irrelevant)

2. They dont fit the system.

eddie mac
02-15-2009, 03:10 PM
No way the Broncos cut Graham. Graham is like having 3 offensive tackles. I also think Winborn stay as a special teams ace.I also think Bly stays for at least one more year. If the Broncos are 27 million in cap space then after cuts it should be about 47 million.

Where have I said the Broncos will cut Graham or indeed I want them to do so. I was simply answering a request from another poster on the financial implications if such moves were made.

BTW 777 the Broncos have nowhere near $27m in cap space at present and wont touch $40m this year.

We have approximately $14m as we speak (top 51 salaries) which would increase to $30m with Robertson's release.

There is another $5m in cash owed to Dre Bly ($3m) and Dan Graham ($2m) in deferred payments but I've no idea whether those payments were already accounted for capwise in 2007 or 2008.

The $4.117m we made from Green's unearned incentives will most likely be taken up via incentives reached by Cutler, Marshall, Dumervil, Kuper and Scheffler.

nickademus
02-15-2009, 03:52 PM
So Eddie you are saying we should be around 30 mil right? I am not sure what happened to your old thread with all of the cap info on it but I wish that would get fixed it was the best source for this type of info.

theAPAOps5
02-15-2009, 04:00 PM
Graham is not a luxury. He's an essential part of the offense.

Graham is one of my favorite Broncos and I tend to stand up for him but he is not nearly as important or as essential a part of this new system compared to what he was in Shanahans system. Remember he left New Englands system and they didn't make any run to keep him. Our Tackles are playing at Pro-bowl levels now so Graham has lost some of his value.

That said a great blocking TE is a great thing to have on your side. And remember he earned this team some crucial first downs with clutch catches. But I fear he may be moved if it really comes down to signing a key player on Defense and they need more cap room.

elsid13
02-15-2009, 04:38 PM
Graham is one of my favorite Broncos and I tend to stand up for him but he is not nearly as important or as essential a part of this new system compared to what he was in Shanahans system. Remember he left New Englands system and they didn't make any run to keep him. Our Tackles are playing at Pro-bowl levels now so Graham has lost some of his value.

That said a great blocking TE is a great thing to have on your side. And remember he earned this team some crucial first downs with clutch catches. But I fear he may be moved if it really comes down to signing a key player on Defense and they need more cap room.

Actually NE did put a similiar offer on the table for him, but Denver put more money up front in signing bonus. And according to the Globe Graham was on the field over 80% of the time for NE

The story
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/07/15/timing_pattern_misfired/

eddie mac
02-15-2009, 05:08 PM
So Eddie you are saying we should be around 30 mil right? I am not sure what happened to your old thread with all of the cap info on it but I wish that would get fixed it was the best source for this type of info.

There's a new one stickied at the top of the front page albeit some info on it needs to be updated but for some reason I cannot edit the initial post. Waiting on a Mod to fix that for me, then it'll be updated to inc Legwold's info.

Inkana7
02-15-2009, 05:14 PM
Graham is one of my favorite Broncos and I tend to stand up for him but he is not nearly as important or as essential a part of this new system compared to what he was in Shanahans system. Remember he left New Englands system and they didn't make any run to keep him. Our Tackles are playing at Pro-bowl levels now so Graham has lost some of his value.

That said a great blocking TE is a great thing to have on your side. And remember he earned this team some crucial first downs with clutch catches. But I fear he may be moved if it really comes down to signing a key player on Defense and they need more cap room.

Getting rid of Graham would be a big mistake. Part of the reason why we're Top-3 in the NFL in rushing left or right end is Graham. He ragdolls DEs in the run game, and has been an awesome red zone threat. Why get rid of a valuable piece of the offense like that? Utility guys have places too. Look at what happened to our D when Sam Brandon got hurt.

TonyR
02-15-2009, 05:22 PM
But I fear he may be moved if it really comes down to signing a key player on Defense and they need more cap room.

I agree Apa. People say Tomlinson isn't worth his $8+ million cap hit in SD but Graham is worth $6+ million? I like him too but we have other needs and letting him go would certainly be understandable. Ben Watson only had 22 catches in McD's offense last year, I'm not sure he puts that much value in a TE, especially when we also have Scheff.

Inkana7
02-15-2009, 05:27 PM
Ben Watson had 49 catches in 2006 with McDaniels. He had 36 in 07 with 6 TDs. Ben Watson has regressed since he ran down Bailey. He doesn't look fast, fluid or natrual catching the ball. Graham and Scheffler do. I don't know where this notion that McDaniels doesn't use the TE comes from.

Tombstone RJ
02-15-2009, 05:29 PM
Graham isn't part of the problem...

Hercules Rockefeller
02-15-2009, 05:40 PM
Graham isn't part of the problem...

No he's not, but there will be extra cap room if they let him go. I mean, just think about it, more cap room that they aren't going to use all of anyway. He does his job well, but c'mon, it's more cap room. Imagine if they could trade him for a draft pick like a 4th, all the draftniks will get their little draft pick chubbies and we can hear all about how a 4th round pick COULD be better than Dan Graham.

DBroncos4life
02-15-2009, 05:43 PM
No he's not, but there will be extra cap room if they let him go. I mean, just think about it, more cap room that they aren't going to use all of anyway. He does his job well, but c'mon, it's more cap room. Imagine if they could trade him for a draft pick like a 4th, all the draftniks will get their little draft pick chubbies and we can hear all about how a 4th round pick COULD be better than Dan Graham.

Bowlen could cut everyone one just think of the cap room then.

Tombstone RJ
02-15-2009, 05:43 PM
No he's not, but there will be extra cap room if they let him go. I mean, just think about it, more cap room that they aren't going to use all of anyway. He does his job well, but c'mon, it's more cap room. Imagine if they could trade him for a draft pick like a 4th, all the draftniks will get their little draft pick chubbies and we can hear all about how a 4th round pick COULD be better than Dan Graham.

Well, now that you put it in those terms...Hilarious!

DBroncos4life
02-15-2009, 05:58 PM
Well, now that you put it in those terms...Hilarious!

well everyone wants to cut this guy and cut that guy to save cap room. What the hell are we going to do with all of it?

TonyR
02-15-2009, 09:34 PM
well everyone wants to cut this guy and cut that guy to save cap room. What the hell are we going to do with all of it?

Funny, but I haven't noticed ANYONE in this thread say they "want" him to be cut. What I have seen is some people suggest he might be cut and that they're smart enough to understand why if it happens.

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 03:55 AM
Getting rid of Graham would be a big mistake. Part of the reason why we're Top-3 in the NFL in rushing left or right end is Graham. He ragdolls DEs in the run game, and has been an awesome red zone threat. Why get rid of a valuable piece of the offense like that? Utility guys have places too. Look at what happened to our D when Sam Brandon got hurt.
I am glad sam brandon is no longer on this team. Women beaters have no place on my broncos team.. lol...

Broncos_OTM
02-16-2009, 03:57 AM
i also think we need to keep ben hamilton another year at the least. along with graham we want to make sure clady will keep working and not have a sophmore slump and one thing that could aid to not having that is sticking with something familiar to him

montrose
02-16-2009, 06:19 AM
I could see us giving Boss and Moss a stay of execution. Especially with Moss, I don't think you drop a first round pick, who you've already invested so much in, until you're absolutely certain that he won't work out.

The guy has been a beast in the past, and he's still young. Hopefully he can turn it around here.

Welcome to case 101 of new Coaching/F.O. regime - they didn't invest a 1st rounder in Moss, they didn't invest time in working with him so they have no reason to keep him around if he won't produce in their system. Seeing we'll eventually be making the move to Nolan's 30-front, unless Moss makes huge strides as an OLB - I expect him to be gone. This example is one why I'm a bit happy to see the Goodman's gone. Nothing personnel to them, but now every player is evaluated evenly, I just wish we would've done it before the Senior Bowl for scouting reasons.

There would then be $24.4m of further dead cap space on our books for 2009 but as Legwold already said on RMN with a system change and underperforming players the Broncos wont have any issues about leaving dead room on the cap in 09 in order to restock their depth chart.

I've speculated this would happen for a while now. In a year of making a clean break from Shanahan/Goodman, and with the cap room to do it, this is the time to make a clean break from the guys who wont be around here long-term. Bowlen wasn't going to go outspend anyone anyhow, so why not get the process of rebuilding going right now?

No way the Broncos cut Graham. Graham is like having 3 offensive tackles. I also think Winborn stay as a special teams ace.I also think Bly stays for at least one more year. If the Broncos are 27 million in cap space then after cuts it should be about 47 million.

I think Graham will stay but wouldn't be shocked if he's gone. Winborn is toast, Nolan ran him out of San Francisco and he is the exact opposite of the type of player Nolan, McDaniels and Xanders want on defense - smart and hard-nosed. I'd like to see Bly kept around but on a rebuilding team there's no reason to pay that kind of money for an aging #2 CB.

The guy I'm interested in is BHam at $4.4 MM. Is he really worth that much?

I expect him to be back as he played well under Dennison who is staying, but keep in mind that me might not be an ideal LG to McDaniels and Xanders because of his size although he could transition to C after Wiegmann's retirement with Lichtensteiger or someone else coming in at LG.

Graham is not a luxury. He's an essential part of the offense.

He was essential to Shanahan's offense, we don't know how critical he would be to McDaniels' offense although I think he could be a big element.

He was a huge asset in the passing game in the 2nd half this year. He's not just a blocking TE.

I agree, the key is you've got to get Graham involved early. If you don't throw to him all game, then throw him one and he drops it - what did you think would happen, he's been playing OT all game. However as the OT's got better and he was getting out in the passing game earlier, he showed he's a very good all-round TE. In fact, considering his blocking is the probably the best in football, he runs really good routes, can make the big catch if involved in the offense as stated earlier and is considered one of - if not the - leader of the offense; I think Graham is one of the best TE's in football. I hope we can find a place for him in the offense.

Actually NE did put a similiar offer on the table for him, but Denver put more money up front in signing bonus. And according to the Globe Graham was on the field over 80% of the time for NE

The story
http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2007/07/15/timing_pattern_misfired/

I didn't see the part about Graham being on the field that much for the Pats, but I believe it. He was a captain for them as well. Honestly I wouldn't be shocked at all if Stokley was gone versus Graham. Graham is younger, more versatile and knows the offense. McDaniels could split out Scheffler as his 3rd WR and really play some formation games with defenses while Graham serves as his TE. Because the 2 TE and 3 WR formations are big in his offense, having those guys would provide great flexibility. With Stokley, he's aging and has a somewhat high cap number. In addition, with Royal presumably having the Wes Welker-role, I'm not so sure where Stokley might fit in. Not to say he will be gone, but I think Graham has a better chance of sticking than Stoke.

elsid13
02-16-2009, 07:03 AM
The 80% was another article. I will have to find it again.

For the offense I see Denver playing more like New Orleans then New England. Both those teams use a similar scheme as it basis.

Dos Rios
02-16-2009, 07:32 AM
I didn't see the part about Graham being on the field that much for the Pats, but I believe it. He was a captain for them as well. Honestly I wouldn't be shocked at all if Stokley was gone versus Graham. Graham is younger, more versatile and knows the offense. McDaniels could split out Scheffler as his 3rd WR and really play some formation games with defenses while Graham serves as his TE. Because the 2 TE and 3 WR formations are big in his offense, having those guys would provide great flexibility. With Stokley, he's aging and has a somewhat high cap number. In addition, with Royal presumably having the Wes Welker-role, I'm not so sure where Stokley might fit in. Not to say he will be gone, but I think Graham has a better chance of sticking than Stoke.[/QUOTE]

Leadership is why Graham is a must-keep. Lack of leaders has haunted this team for the last several years as Wilson, Smith, Nalen, Burns, etc. left the field. People love the offense, but the best players are now Cutler, Marshall and Clady - each still growing into the roles of leader. Who has been the locker room Rod Smith of this offense the last couple years? My understanding is Graham. It's even more acute on the o-line, where Nalen was the undisputed leader for over a decade. Hamilton, when around, helps ease the transition, but Graham's position as the 6th o-lineman has given Kuper, Clady, Harris an everyday example of a hardworking NFL vet.

And the guy went to school in CO. Look at the love Billups gets with the Nuggets right now for his leadership and roots. Graham is as good at his job on the field as Billups on the court, and gives the same intangibles to the team.

I wish this team had about 10 more Dan Grahams. Leaders are worth their weight in gold.