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cmhargrove
02-13-2009, 05:25 AM
Sounds like the conflict was happening more with the son of the "father-son" team from articles published today. The Denverpost says there was anxiety between the son (Jeff Goodman) and Xanders (read DP article).

Also, from the CBS Denver station, you can watch the clips where they say many doubted Jeff Goodman's ability to perform as "Assistant General Manager."

So. it looks like job conflicts lead to this "streamlining."

Bowlen had to decide to clear things up when there were several differing opinions. Organizationally, it is a good move, but time will tell if we miss Jim Goodman's scouting expertise.

Broncos shake up front office
By Lindsay H. Jones and Mike Klis
The Denver Post
POSTED: 02/13/2009 12:30:00 AM MST
UPDATED: 02/13/2009 12:56:11 AM MST


Brian Xanders (The Denver Post)
Pat Bowlen again has made a major change atop the Broncos organization.

Less than two months after Bowlen fired coach Mike Shanahan and hired Josh McDaniels, the team owner on Thursday appointed Brian Xanders as the team's sole general manager and fired Jim Goodman and Jeff Goodman.

The decision effectively disbands the three-man team that had been running the team's personnel department for the past year.

Jim Goodman had been the vice president of football operations and was in charge of player evaluation. Jeff Goodman, who is Jim's son, had shared the title of assistant general manager with Xanders for a year.

"Really, what I was interested in doing was resetting the way we do business around here," Bowlen said Thursday in a telephone interview. "Brian Xanders was what I considered a true general manager."

Xanders, 37, will be in charge of player personnel issues, including scouting and contract negotiations, though McDaniels will likely have the final say in selecting the roster. Bowlen said Xanders and McDaniels will independently report to him.

"We've really changed the complexion of this organization," Bowlen said. "I think it's going to help big-time."

Still, Thursday's moves were a surprise considering comments Bowlen and McDaniels made after the new coach was hired Jan. 12. At that time, Bowlen reiterated statements he made after Shanahan's firing that he didn't anticipate any changes in the personnel department, while McDaniels had said Jim Goodman would have the final say in personnel decisions.

Bowlen's decision surprised the Goodmans, who up until early Thursday afternoon were at work, evaluating players for free agency and the upcoming draft. Both father and son had represented the Broncos at the Senior Bowl in Alabama last month.

"I thank Mr. Bowlen for the opportunity he gave me," Jeff Goodman said Thursday evening. "I wish Brian and Josh the best of luck going forward. It's a class organization that will continue to have success in the future. I'm proud of what we've accomplished in the short period of time that I was here, made a lot of good relationships and look forward to seeing the Broncos have success in the future."

Bowlen said he knew the decision to streamline the personnel department, with Xanders at the top, would leave Jeff Goodman "disenfranchised."

Bowlen acknowledged some "anxiety" between Jeff Goodman and Xanders as they shared duties, and though Bowlen said there was no friction in their relationship, it was inevitable that the one not picked to be GM would have to leave.

"My decision was to pick Brian as the general manager, and once I did that I don't think Jeff felt — he didn't come out and say this — but he felt he should have moved on," Bowlen said. "I think he should move on to a different organization and become a general manager."

By going with Xanders, that also meant proceeding without Jim Goodman, who had been with the Broncos for 11 years. Bowlen said he didn't think Jim would be comfortable staying without Jeff.

"I don't think it would have worked," Bowlen said. "Knowing Jim for a long time, I have a great deal of respect for him. Jim is a top-notch guy who could run anybody's scouting department. And I felt he should be given that opportunity."

Xanders was hired last May as an assistant GM after spending 14 years with the Atlanta Falcons. His expertise is in the business side of personnel matters, especially in dealing with the salary cap and contract negotiations. Though Xanders does have experience in player evaluation, Bowlen said he expects to hire someone else — likely someone with prior connections to either Xanders or McDaniels — to be in charge of scouting.

"I am humbled by this opportunity and accept it as a great challenge on behalf of our fans, our community, Mr. Bowlen and the organization. I am excited to work together with Coach McDaniels and put our collective resources into winning football games," Xanders said in a statement released by the team.

This is the second overhaul of the Broncos' front office in less than a year after Shanahan fired former general manager Ted Sundquist on March 12.

cmhargrove
02-13-2009, 05:27 AM
Here are some good analysis clips from the sports dept at CBS4 Denver. They also shed a little insight:

http://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53173@kcnc.dayport.com

http://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53189@kcnc.dayport.com

http://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53190@kcnc.dayport.comhttp://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53190@kcnc.dayport.com

bowtown
02-13-2009, 05:32 AM
Xanders, 37, will be in charge of player personnel issues, including scouting and contract negotiations, though McDaniels will likely have the final say in selecting the roster. Bowlen said Xanders and McDaniels will independently report to him.

I'm sorry, what a I missing here?

Dedhed
02-13-2009, 05:34 AM
I'm sorry, what a I missing here?

Maybe that some coaches don't get the final say on player personnel?

bowtown
02-13-2009, 05:41 AM
Maybe that some coaches don't get the final say on player personnel?

Yes. I realize that, thank you. Yet one of the main reasons Bowlen gave for firing Shanahan is that he didn't want the head coach to have the final say anymore. He was taking back the power... thank God he so quickly decided to hand it right back over to a 32 year-old nobody.

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 06:14 AM
Here are some good analysis clips from the sports dept at CBS4 Denver. They also shed a little insight:

http://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53173@kcnc.dayport.com

http://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53189@kcnc.dayport.com

http://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53190@kcnc.dayport.comhttp://www.cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53190@kcnc.dayport.com

These reports give the situation some clarity.

Bowlen wants the best possible FO team.....Jeff Goodman was definitely a weak link whereas Xanders is well respected in the league.
Bowlen will get control of his team again, who can blame him?

Most here didn't like Shanhan's player evaluations so why would his FO office choices be any better??

The moves look like good business practices, but that won't stop the OMG!!! WTF!! crowd from melting down.

TonyR
02-13-2009, 06:22 AM
The moves look like good business practices, but that won't stop the OMG!!! WTF!! crowd from melting down.

I agree with you, DB, but the one legit concern is getting rid of your player personnel/talent eval core after the Senior Bowl and so close to FA. Unless they have another experienced player personnel/talent evaluation person(s) ready to step in this move is questionable in that regard. But overall, since we don't know the whole story, I'm not going to panic and I'm going to hope and trust that they know what they're doing!

cmhargrove
02-13-2009, 06:27 AM
This was taken from a RockuMountainNews Article published in 2008 after Sundquist was released. This outlined what each party actually did:

"What they do

The Broncos have a three-pronged power base that reports to coach Mike Shanahan.

* Jim Goodman, vice president of football operations/player personnel: In charge of pro and college scouting. Will dabble in pro scouting and negotiations, but main emphasis will be coordinating the college scouts and draft while making sure daily operations on the football side run smoothly.

* Jeff Goodman, assistant general manager: Oversees pro personnel department on a daily basis. Cross-checks and analyzes pro players. Frequently serves as point man on contract negotiations, including upcoming talks on draft-pick signings. In charge of Broncos' security detail.

* Brian Xanders, assistant general manager: Chief role is long- and short-term salary-cap management and cash management. Also handles contract negotiations with both Goodmans and Mike Bluem, the team's director of football administration. Contributor in player personnel."



It sounds like Jim Goodman was responsible for overseeing and "dabbling" in pro scouting, but he was mainly responsible for coordinating the scouts themselves.

Both Jeff G and Xanders were working with contracts and signings.

So, with the new power shakeup, it was the 30 year old Assistant GM (Jeff G) against the 37 year old Xanders.

Bowlen had to make a choice, that looks like common sense. Unfortunately, losing Jim Goodman could bite us, depending on how much "dabbling" he actually did.

On the DenverBroncos.com website, all our scouts are still listed (including the youngest Goodman - Tyler). If that crew is the same scouting crew we have used the past few years, I don't see what the main issue is. They will just be reporting to Xanders, rather than Jim Goodman.

We might all be over reacting a little.

The Joker
02-13-2009, 06:29 AM
Yes. I realize that, thank you. Yet one of the main reasons Bowlen gave for firing Shanahan is that he didn't want the head coach to have the final say anymore. He was taking back the power... thank God he so quickly decided to hand it right back over to a 32 year-old nobody.

The real reason is most likely that Bowlen thought that Shanahan was clueless when getting in players on defense, and knew that we could never reasonably expect to compete with Shanny ruling over everything.

But he's not going to come out and say that now is he?

Most likely he has more faith in McDaniels getting in the right guys on that side of the ball, so he's happy to let him run with it. Whether that faith is justified, only time will tell.

There's really no right or wrong way to do things, it's about finding a way that works. Bowlen is clearly intent on doing this, and it really could end up in complete disaster. Or, it could work a charm and set us up for years. There's really no way of knowing at this point, this time next year we'll know whether Pat's drunken escapades are justified or not.

cmhargrove
02-13-2009, 06:33 AM
The real reason is most likely that Bowlen thought that Shanahan was clueless when getting in players on defense, and knew that we could never reasonably expect to compete with Shanny ruling over everything.

But he's not going to come out and say that now is he?

Most likely he has more faith in McDaniels getting in the right guys on that side of the ball, so he's happy to let him run with it. Whether that faith is justified, only time will tell.

There's really no right or wrong way to do things, it's about finding a way that works. Bowlen is clearly intent on doing this, and it really could end up in complete disaster. Or, it could work a charm and set us up for years. There's really no way of knowing at this point, this time next year we'll know whether Pat's drunken escapades are justified or not.

I think it's becoming clearer with every new bit of information that this was just a conflict between two guys with overlapping jobs.

Remember that Shanny really built way too many managers into his organization. A couple years ago, we had "assistant head coaches" of offense and defense, and they weren't even the coordinators.

Shanny built way too many levels of management, and those are being taken apart. Organizationally, that is an excellent decision. The real question is - did we pick the right guy to be GM? Otherwise, the structural changes are very good for the Broncos.

You or I would have been lynched by stockholders for creating on organization with so many levels of overlapping duties and middle management.

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 06:44 AM
I think it's becoming clearer with every new bit of information that this was just a conflict between two guys with overlapping jobs.

Remember that Shanny really built way too many managers into his organization. A couple years ago, we had "assistant head coaches" of offense and defense, and they weren't even the coordinators.

Shanny built way too many levels of management, and those are being taken apart. Organizationally, that is an excellent decision. The real question is - did we pick the right guy to be GM? Otherwise, the structural changes are very good for the Broncos.

You or I would have been lynched by stockholders for creating on organization with so many levels of overlapping duties and middle management.

Exactly! Bowlen is a business man and simply said "enough!" Anyone who has owned or run a business would understand these moves.
It had become a clusterf@ck and the organizational chart no longer made sense.
Take back the reigns, reorganize and now we'll wait to see if the choices work out.

oubronco
02-13-2009, 07:03 AM
These reports give the situation some clarity.

Bowlen wants the best possible FO team.....Jeff Goodman was definitely a weak link whereas Xanders is well respected in the league.
Bowlen will get control of his team again, who can blame him?

Most here didn't like Shanhan's player evaluations so why would his FO office choices be any better??

The moves look like good business practices, but that won't stop the OMG!!! WTF!! crowd from melting down.

I believe it had more to do with the timing

cmhargrove
02-13-2009, 07:09 AM
I believe it had more to do with the timing

Imagine going into draft day with three competing voices.

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 07:14 AM
Bowlen's decision surprised the Goodmans, who up until early Thursday afternoon were at work, evaluating players for free agency and the upcoming draft. Both father and son had represented the Broncos at the Senior Bowl in Alabama last month.
Well that's just great. I hope we kept some of their notes.:flush:

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 07:15 AM
I believe it had more to do with the timing

When would the timing be right?

Not before McDaniels had been able to work with the Goodmans and Xanders.
It was going to take a little time to evaluate the working relationship.

The reports so far show that Bowlen made a decision as quickly as possible.
If the Goodmans had been fired along with Shanny, I can only imagine the meltdown on the mane.

Bowlen wouldn't just be a "drunk", he'd be on "crack/heroin/shrooms/opium" too! ;D

oubronco
02-13-2009, 07:19 AM
I was responding to your qoute about the OMG!!! WTF!! crowd from melting down

bowtown
02-13-2009, 07:21 AM
When would the timing be right?

Not before McDaniels had been able to work with the Goodmans and Xanders.
It was going to take a little time to evaluate the working relationship.

The reports so far show that Bowlen made a decision as quickly as possible.
If the Goodmans had been fired along with Shanny, I can only imagine the meltdown on the mane.

Bowlen wouldn't just be a "drunk", he'd be on "crack/heroin/shrooms/opium" too! ;D

Seriously? I don't think people would have melted down any more strongly if Bowlen had decided to just purge all of the old guard at once. It's mickey mouse KFC bull**** to be firing these guys weeks later.

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 07:30 AM
I was responding to your qoute about the OMG!!! WTF!! crowd from melting down

Which is why I asked... "when would the timing be right"? No biggie.

Rohirrim
02-13-2009, 07:31 AM
That's a shame. He was great in The Big Lebowski.

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 07:35 AM
Seriously? I don't think people would have melted down any more strongly if Bowlen had decided to just purge all of the old guard at once. It's mickey mouse KFC bull**** to be firing these guys weeks later.

We don't know what really happened. But one thing is becoming clear. Jeff Goodman had been promoted way above his ability.
The "Peter Principal" should have kicked in much earlier.

Peter Principal
In an organizational structure, the Peter Principle's practical application allows assessment of the potential of an employee for a promotion based on performance in the current job, i.e. members of a hierarchical organization eventually are promoted to their highest level of competence, after which further promotion raises them to incompetence.

oubronco
02-13-2009, 07:35 AM
Which is why I asked... "when would the timing be right"? No biggie.

Hell I don't know I'm just a country boy :wave:

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 07:39 AM
Hell I don't know I'm just a country boy :wave:

I'm not falling for it......I spent several years in OKC.



Witness protection program. ;D

Cool Breeze
02-13-2009, 08:13 AM
They got the wrong Goodman...

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMTUyMTM5ODQ1M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTYwMTQwNTM3._V1._ SX450_SY321_.jpg

oubronco
02-13-2009, 08:15 AM
I'm not falling for it......I spent several years in OKC.



Witness protection program. ;D

scratchin my head

tsiguy96
02-13-2009, 08:54 AM
to be fair, there are a LOT of people who think that the coach should have say over who is on his team. not 100% control, but a good say in it. i agree with them, regardless of who the coach is.

i think the GM/scouts should be there to supply information and help guide the process, make recommendations etc, but the coach should find the people he wnats to play in his system.

bronco militia
02-13-2009, 09:02 AM
FYI......Bowlen has never hired a GM to run his team

Taco John
02-13-2009, 09:07 AM
But one thing is becoming clear. Jeff Goodman had been promoted way above his ability.





On what are you basing this judgement?

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 09:19 AM
On what are you basing this judgement?

The word of the owner, but that's the one piece I agree with. I was a big fan of Jim but not Jeff. Maybe it's my natural suspicion of nepotism but he seemed like someone under-qualified for his position. I was willing to live with it because I knew the Goodman's came as a package. I definitely would not have been comfortable with Jeff as the GM, though I'm no more comfortable with Xanders. Suffice to say that I agree with the statement that Jeff Goodman wasn't ready.

Taco John
02-13-2009, 09:24 AM
The word of the owner, but that's the one piece I agree with. I was a big fan of Jim but not Jeff. Maybe it's my natural suspicion of nepotism but he seemed like someone under-qualified for his position. I was willing to live with it because I knew the Goodman's came as a package. I definitely would not have been comfortable with Jeff as the GM, though I'm no more comfortable with Xanders. Suffice to say that I agree with the statement that Jeff Goodman wasn't ready.



Maybe I'm missing something, but where is Bowlen saying anything about Jeff being promoted above his abilities?

For my part, I'm more upset about Jim being canned than Jeff, especially considering that Bowlen called him out during the press conference and used him as a symbol of stability in this time of transition. But I think saying that Jeff was over-promoted is a bit of a reach - especially considering the results that we got from the tandem.

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 09:34 AM
On what are you basing this judgement?

He was fired.

Seriously, he went from 2 years as a scouting assistant and then was made assistant GM.
This video comments on the head scratching in Dove valley when he was promoted.

http://cbs4denver.com/video/?id=53173@kcnc.dayport.com

rad
02-13-2009, 09:35 AM
This was taken from a RockuMountainNews Article published in 2008 after Sundquist was released. This outlined what each party actually did:

"What they do

The Broncos have a three-pronged power base that reports to coach Mike Shanahan.

* Jim Goodman, vice president of football operations/player personnel: In charge of pro and college scouting. Will dabble in pro scouting and negotiations, but main emphasis will be coordinating the college scouts and draft while making sure daily operations on the football side run smoothly.

* Jeff Goodman, assistant general manager: Oversees pro personnel department on a daily basis. Cross-checks and analyzes pro players. Frequently serves as point man on contract negotiations, including upcoming talks on draft-pick signings. In charge of Broncos' security detail.

* Brian Xanders, assistant general manager: Chief role is long- and short-term salary-cap management and cash management. Also handles contract negotiations with both Goodmans and Mike Bluem, the team's director of football administration. Contributor in player personnel."



It sounds like Jim Goodman was responsible for overseeing and "dabbling" in pro scouting, but he was mainly responsible for coordinating the scouts themselves.

Both Jeff G and Xanders were working with contracts and signings.

So, with the new power shakeup, it was the 30 year old Assistant GM (Jeff G) against the 37 year old Xanders.

Bowlen had to make a choice, that looks like common sense. Unfortunately, losing Jim Goodman could bite us, depending on how much "dabbling" he actually did.

On the DenverBroncos.com website, all our scouts are still listed (including the youngest Goodman - Tyler). If that crew is the same scouting crew we have used the past few years, I don't see what the main issue is. They will just be reporting to Xanders, rather than Jim Goodman.

We might all be over reacting a little.

So they kept the bean-counter for GM and canned the talent evaluators?

Brilliant.

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 09:41 AM
scratchin my head

When I lived in OK, I heard that comment often......from people who were anything but. "I'm just a country boy," was self-effacing or modest.

I was paying you a compliment.

I was often asked: What's a Brit doing in OKC of all places.....witness protection?? You had to be there. ;D

Broncos_OTM
02-13-2009, 09:43 AM
Yes. I realize that, thank you. Yet one of the main reasons Bowlen gave for firing Shanahan is that he didn't want the head coach to have the final say anymore. He was taking back the power... thank God he so quickly decided to hand it right back over to a 32 year-old nobody.

Weak dude. Bowlen is the GM ..MCD and Xanders both report to bowlen. on everything. and they will all make the decision. Bowlen is Jerry Jones. i mean GM

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 09:45 AM
Maybe I'm missing something, but where is Bowlen saying anything about Jeff being promoted above his abilities?
It's been reported on the radio and local news here that "people in the organization" felt he was not ready for his position. Also it appears there was a lot of strain between Jeff and McDaniels and Xanders. Bowlen is on record saying that Jeff would not have accepted Xanders working over him. If Jim wasn't a factor I would say kick Jeff to the curb without thinking but Jim is, again, part of the package. It's extremely unfortunate but you can have a house divided going into what is already a shaky start.

I don't know who they'll bring in to manage pro-scouting but I felt Jim was the answer and now he's gone. It remains to be seen if we threw the baby out with the bathwater but it's clear the situation would have been dicey at best and unworkable at worst had things not changed.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 09:48 AM
Golden Goose status report:

Killed.

UberBroncoMan
02-13-2009, 10:01 AM
I'm sorry, what a I missing here?

It's Shanahan + Sundquist 2.0

What did you expect lol

tsiguy96
02-13-2009, 10:02 AM
So they kept the bean-counter for GM and canned the talent evaluators?

Brilliant.

the talent evaluators are scouts, normally they would report to the GM, however in pat's model of ownership (as well as others) they allow the coach to pick the players based on the info the talent evaluators give them.

Broncos_OTM
02-13-2009, 10:05 AM
the talent evaluators are scouts, normally they would report to the GM, however in pat's model of ownership (as well as others) they allow the coach to pick the players based on the info the talent evaluators give them.
Bowlen said it. Mcdaniels will come to him for his wnats. Xanders will bring what he wants before bowlen and they all will decide. it is in black and white..

wolf754life
02-13-2009, 10:19 AM
Mike Shanahan = Fail

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 10:24 AM
Mike Shanahan = Fail

This isn't about Mike Shanahan dude...

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 10:27 AM
Mike Shanahan = Fail

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5439/boxkw2.jpg

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/362108.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C9486CAC28B24C7727F52 284831B75F48EF45

yerner
02-13-2009, 10:27 AM
Yeah, who does the scouting and draft picking now? I thought Jim Goodman was the main guy. That he worked on it year round?

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 10:28 AM
Yeah, who does the scouting and draft picking now? I thought Jim Goodman was the main guy. That he worked on it year round?

Apparently someone else they're going to hire. Yeah, I know. It's stupid.

montrose
02-13-2009, 10:33 AM
Apparently someone else they're going to hire. Yeah, I know. It's stupid.

Aren't we to believe it's Xanders?

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 10:34 AM
Aren't we to believe it's Xanders?

Not to run the scouting. They're going to either bring someone new in or promote.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 10:34 AM
Aren't we to believe it's Xanders?

That's like hiring an electrician to clean out your chimney...

montrose
02-13-2009, 10:37 AM
Not to run the scouting. They're going to either bring someone new in or promote.

You think they'll land someone in time to scout the draft assuming it's not Chris Trulove or Dave Bratten?

That's like hiring an electrician to clean out your chimney...

That's what I figured, to an extent. Although I have to hope that Xanders brings more to the table than being a cap guy.

Drek
02-13-2009, 10:38 AM
Yeah, who does the scouting and draft picking now? I thought Jim Goodman was the main guy. That he worked on it year round?

They'll probably hire someone shortly to oversee scouting, but the actual selections? Mostly McDaniels I'd say. Scouting departments work pretty much year round regardless though.

We're building a hierarchy just like the Patriots now. Bowlen isn't acting like Jerry Jones or Al Davis like some here have suggested, he's acting like Bob Kraft, who happens to be one of the fellow owners he's closest with.

In New England Belichick had final say but he had a GM with coaching and scouting experience who handled the day to day operations and financial management aspects of the job.

Now here McDaniels will have final say but his GM is a guy who has coaching and scouting experience as well has significant experience with contract negotiations and cap management.

I'd have preferred to see Jim Goodman given the GM role and let Xanders and Jeff Goodman stay in a second tier role, but the previous comment that Shanahan had built in too many layers of redundant middle management and oversight was very true, so you can somewhat see the need for further house cleaning.

Should make for an interesting draft, its McDaniels' show now though so lets see what he can do.

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 10:46 AM
You think they'll land someone in time to scout the draft assuming it's not Chris Trulove or Dave Bratten?
It would have to be one or the other unless they jack a Patriots or Chargers scout. It's the primary reason after the Goodman's were let go I was doing this:

http://www.iknowkungfoo.com/images/blog/facepalm.jpg

oubronco
02-13-2009, 10:50 AM
When I lived in OK, I heard that comment often......from people who were anything but. "I'm just a country boy," was self-effacing or modest.

I was paying you a compliment.

I was often asked: What's a Brit doing in OKC of all places.....witness protection?? You had to be there. ;D

No problem I know exactly what you mean I was raised in a small town where haulin hay and feeding cows was my Xbox or Playstation 2 and chasing girls and bonfires in the pasture with alot of beer and cowboy koolaid were what we did for fun

ZONA
02-13-2009, 11:09 AM
It's not like Xanders is a total bean counter and that's all he does. He played4 years at FSU and did some coaching as well. Add to that a masters degree in business management. You have a smart dude who also played and knows football, besides management.

Lets see how he does before we go off the deep end here.

I personally think this was a great move. Shanny was such a huge presence here for so long and when he left, I think cleaning out the rest was the smartest thing to do.

And we're not done yet, now it's onto the players. Cleaning out the trash is almost done. :strong:

theAPAOps5
02-13-2009, 11:11 AM
I definitely agree the timing on this sucked ass. Bowlen would have been better served to clean house all around when he fired Shanahan. Goodman just did a whole bunch of scouting for another team. Hopefully its someone who doesn't draft in front of us.

BroncoMan4ever
02-13-2009, 01:44 PM
Yes. I realize that, thank you. Yet one of the main reasons Bowlen gave for firing Shanahan is that he didn't want the head coach to have the final say anymore. He was taking back the power... thank God he so quickly decided to hand it right back over to a 32 year-old nobody.

he isn't letting McDaniels call the shots in every phase of the franchise like he did with Shanahan. the thing is, he isn't going to be like Jerry Jones or Al Davis, and stick his HC with a players he doesn't want or doesn't think will fit his system.

the way it is going to work, Xanders and McDaniels will go over players together that are in FA, on the roster, and in the draft and decide what they think of them and if they would like to get them, or let them go. Ultimately it will be up to McDaniels whether or not he thinks he can use the player or if the player will fit his system.

broncosteven
02-13-2009, 01:58 PM
Seriously? I don't think people would have melted down any more strongly if Bowlen had decided to just purge all of the old guard at once. It's mickey mouse KFC bull**** to be firing these guys weeks later.

I agree, make the cuts with in a week of Shanny's firing, not 2 months later.

BroncoMan4ever
02-13-2009, 02:40 PM
I agree, make the cuts with in a week of Shanny's firing, not 2 months later.

Bowlen was giving the front office a tryout to see which of them was best suited to become our GM.

we all assumed it would be Goodman, whether or not in title, but he was thought to be the acting GM, but it seems that Xanders was better at the job and was promoted.

it was time for a coaching change, and the best man of the front office in Bowlen's mind is now the GM.

i think it was a good move, because ultimately the Goodmans have been involved in some ****ty moves in recent history, Niko and Colbert come to mind immediately. just because they have had a few good drafts shouldn't ensure them a job on staff. that is how we ended up with Shanahan coaching us for probably 5-6 years longer tha n he should have. he brought some success and because of that Bowlen let him do what he wanted for longer than he should have.

now i was a Shanahan backer, but when the ax came down, i knew it was for the best and was a move that probably should have been done years ago.

better to dump the dead weight now, instead of let acrimony build amongst the front office and create turmoil in the franchise.

also, can we all just relax until after the draft or TC at the very least before we declare next season a lost cause?

people are forgetting we have a young offense capable of being the leagues best and a coach who will get the most out of them. We will be much improved next season, i have no doubt about that in my mind.

tsiguy96
02-13-2009, 03:55 PM
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/5439/boxkw2.jpg

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/362108.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C9486CAC28B24C7727F52 284831B75F48EF45

key part: JANUARY 26th, 1998

Killericon
02-13-2009, 04:01 PM
key part: JANUARY 26th, 1998

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6765/scoreia7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

broncosteven
02-13-2009, 04:23 PM
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/6765/scoreia7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Doesn't count, AFC Championships are too easy to get to.

TonyR
02-14-2009, 08:57 AM
Doesn't count, AFC Championships are too easy to get to.

Remind me again what happened in the AFCCG?

Broncos_OTM
02-14-2009, 11:14 AM
Doesn't count, AFC Championships are too easy to get to.

sorry but that is ignorant

tsiguy96
02-14-2009, 11:16 AM
sorry but that is ignorant

shanahan lovers need to get over it. i wish the guy as much luck as anyone here, but hes no longer the broncos coach. josh mcdaniels is, people need to accept and embrace that, he will be here hopefully for a very long time.

chrisp
02-15-2009, 12:55 AM
I was totally on board with all of the recent changes (I was in the 'playoff or bust for shanny in 09' camp) untill this one - I couldn't help but feel that the goodmans we're very much behind our recent drafting improvement.

I can understand how if Jeff wasn't getting the top job he wouldn;t have wanted to hang around, so with putting Xanders in charge we lose the Goodmans, but I'm concerned as hell as I don't think people like that grow on trees.

The only scope for hope comes from the following:

Maybe the Goodman's weren't all that: when your drafts have sucked for as long as ours have you're due a few good ones, and its not like our FA moves were ever up to much.

The various position coaches are responsible for many of the draft reccomendations and the like - if our new boys know what they're doing it will help offset any losses in the scouting departement

We still have the same scouts as far as I'm aware - these guys deserve some of the credit too!

Nonetheless I was looking forward to seeing what the Goodmans could do with next season's draft,

Traveler
02-15-2009, 04:41 AM
Goodman just did a whole bunch of scouting for another team.

Like most other organizations, I think any work done by the Goodmans(preparing for the combine, draft, and FA)for the Broncos stays with the team. I see firing the Goodmans similar to last year when Sunquist got canned.

OT: I will admit that after the draft is completed, I'd like Xanders to reorganize/replace the personnel in scouting department. Those are Shanahan folks too.

Rock Chalk
02-15-2009, 05:25 PM
Wait, why do we have to bring in another scouting guy?

JIM GOODMAN was a COORDINATOR of SCOUTS. We have scouts and player evaluators, Goodman was the head honcho but not he only one.

All Xanders has to do is promote one of the current Scouts to Eagle Scout and let the rest be Cub Scouts, and the problem is solved.

Do you people honestly believe that one person is responsible for all the player evaluations? Dont be ridiculous. There are thousands of players to scout and watch and see, no one person has enough time to do it.

Goodman probably wasnt responsible for all the great draft picks, in fact it may be possible that not a single one of our GREAT picks over the last few years was through Goodman's input, but from the collective scout body.

Why the **** do you people get so worked up over this?

Tombstone RJ
02-15-2009, 05:42 PM
Wait, why do we have to bring in another scouting guy?

JIM GOODMAN was a COORDINATOR of SCOUTS. We have scouts and player evaluators, Goodman was the head honcho but not he only one.

All Xanders has to do is promote one of the current Scouts to Eagle Scout and let the rest be Cub Scouts, and the problem is solved.

Do you people honestly believe that one person is responsible for all the player evaluations? Dont be ridiculous. There are thousands of players to scout and watch and see, no one person has enough time to do it.

Goodman probably wasnt responsible for all the great draft picks, in fact it may be possible that not a single one of our GREAT picks over the last few years was through Goodman's input, but from the collective scout body.

Why the **** do you people get so worked up over this?



'cause we're fans on a chat board?

SoCalBronco
02-15-2009, 10:47 PM
I have even less respect for Bowlen's ability to make well thought out and competent decisions than I did before, which I didn't think was possible.

BroncoBuff
02-15-2009, 11:14 PM
Goodman probably wasnt responsible for all the great draft picks, in fact it may be possible that not a single one of our GREAT picks over the last few years was through Goodman's input, but from the collective scout body.

Why the **** do you people get so worked up over this?
I wanna know why the **** you don't realize that even though Jim ****ing Goodman might not have made every single player evalution by hisown*ingself, that we did after all have our BEST ****ING DRAFTS EVER these past 3-4 years he's been in charge?!?!

WT* don't you get this?!

BroncoBuff
02-15-2009, 11:24 PM
I guess Rock Chalk Gayhawk doesn't mind drafting guys like George ***ing Foster, Willie ***ing Middlebrooks, Ian ***ing Gold, Paul ***ing Toviessi, Terry Rock-Chalk-State Pierce, Ashley ***ing Lelie, Deltha O-***ing-Neal, and Darius ****ing Watts.


As for ME, I want the guy who drafted Peyton ****ing Hillis, Brandon ****ing Marshall, Ryan ****ing Harris, Eddie ****ing Royal, Chris ****ing Kuper, Marcus ****ing Thomas, Spencer ****ing Larsen and Domenik ****ing Hixon and Elvis ***ing Presley.

BroncoBuff
02-15-2009, 11:26 PM
(Seriously, these last three drafts have been pure freaking genius)

Kaylore
02-15-2009, 11:31 PM
Wait, why do we have to bring in another scouting guy?

JIM GOODMAN was a COORDINATOR of SCOUTS. We have scouts and player evaluators, Goodman was the head honcho but not he only one.

All Xanders has to do is promote one of the current Scouts to Eagle Scout and let the rest be Cub Scouts, and the problem is solved.

Do you people honestly believe that one person is responsible for all the player evaluations? Dont be ridiculous. There are thousands of players to scout and watch and see, no one person has enough time to do it.

Goodman probably wasnt responsible for all the great draft picks, in fact it may be possible that not a single one of our GREAT picks over the last few years was through Goodman's input, but from the collective scout body.

Why the **** do you people get so worked up over this?

The actual picking process was taken over by the Goodman's going back the last few years. If it was all "the scouts" then why weren't we drafting a bunch of bad asses all those other years? We've changed our scouts very little especially in the last few years. So Alec, what magically made the last few drafts so good? Was it just dumb luck? Are we just the luckiest dudes ever lately and our scouting department really is just average because, per your explanation, they're the real ones behind it? I mean that would explain taking George Foster and Terry Pierce. If Goodman had absolutely nothing to do with any of it, then what magically made things change?

WolfpackGuy
02-16-2009, 07:16 AM
So who was actually responsible for drafting the players from 2006-2008?
I would think those people would be the ones you want to keep.

tsiguy96
02-16-2009, 07:20 AM
doom and gloom! its all over!!!!

TonyR
02-16-2009, 11:36 AM
Seriously, these last three drafts have been pure freaking genius

I don't know that I'd call 2007 "genius". Moss at 1 and Crowder at 2? And Thomas is still a question mark at 4. Ryan Harris saved the draft at 3 but those first two picks are still head scratchers and this defense clearly couldn't afford busts.

Hallside
02-16-2009, 11:39 AM
I don't know that I'd call 2007 "genius". Moss at 1 and Crowder at 2? And Thomas is still a question mark at 4. Ryan Harris saved the draft at 3 but those first two picks are still head scratchers and this defense clearly couldn't afford busts.

I think Harris' performance is strong enough to redeem that entire draft. Thomas was solid too. We already have 2 good starters from the draft. That's good. If one more develops, it's damn good.

That draft was also very important to our 2007 season. Sad as this is to say, imagine that year without Selvin Young. lol

BroncoBuff
02-16-2009, 12:47 PM
I don't know that I'd call 2007 "genius". Moss at 1 and Crowder at 2? And Thomas is still a question mark at 4. Ryan Harris saved the draft at 3 but those first two picks are still head scratchers and this defense clearly couldn't afford busts.
Of course we had just 4 picks ...

Tim Crowder - Almost a full-fledged bust. I think only a switch to the 3-defense, where he might find a spot better suited to his skills, can save him.
Jarvis Moss - Still too soon. He's a candidate for 3-4 WLB I think, and if he gets decent coaching he might excel there. But I agree he's gotta perform soon.
Ryan Harris - A decade long block of granite. Named to one All-Pro teams in this just his first full season.
Marcus Thomas - MT is another decade-long block of granite. And the consensus is he is well-suited to the 3-4 DE spot, so he can play in either defense.

I think two decade-long solid starters on the line is pretty good for four picks.

oubronco
02-16-2009, 12:57 PM
I guess Rock Chalk Gayhawk doesn't mind drafting guys like George ***ing Foster, Willie ***ing Middlebrooks, Ian ***ing Gold, Paul ***ing Toviessi, Terry Rock-Chalk-State Pierce, Ashley ***ing Lelie, Deltha O-***ing-Neal, and Darius ****ing Watts.


As for ME, I want the guy who drafted Peyton ****ing Hillis, Brandon ****ing Marshall, Ryan ****ing Harris, Eddie ****ing Royal, Chris ****ing Kuper, Marcus ****ing Thomas, Spencer ****ing Larsen and Domenik ****ing Hixon and Elvis ***ing Presley.

****ing a right !!!! ROFL!

BroncoBuff
02-16-2009, 12:59 PM
Of course we had just 4 picks ...

Tim Crowder - Almost a full-fledged bust. I think only a switch to the 3-defense, where he might find a spot better suited to his skills, can save him.
Jarvis Moss - Still too soon. He's a candidate for 3-4 WLB I think, and if he gets decent coaching he might excel there. But I agree he's gotta perform soon.
Ryan Harris - A decade long block of granite. Named to one All-Pro teams in this just his first full season.
Marcus Thomas - MT is another decade-long block of granite. And the consensus is he is well-suited to the 3-4 DE spot, so he can play in either defense.

I think two decade-long solid starters on the line is pretty good for four picks.


And remember this ... there are two picks Goodman made in the last three drafts that have gone on to excel elsewhere: Chris Myers and Domenik Hixon.

Weigmann was great this season of course, a Pro-Bowler. But there's not an informed Broncos fan with his wits about him that would turn down a Weigmann-for-Myers swap right now. In a thread yesterday, it was posted that the 26-year old Myers allowed zero sacks in 16 starts this year in Houston, and he makes less than 36-year old Weigmann will make when we re-sign him sometime in the next few weeks. Hixon's KR and recieving excellence has been greatly lamented around here, as he contributed in crunch-time to a Super Bowl winning Giants team in '07.

SO ... in the last three drafts, imo Jim Goodman has assembled an ENTIRE OFFENSE from scratch, an exciting, potent offense.

Here is "The Goodman Offense." His draft picks '06, '07, '08 in Blue:

Jay Cutler
Peyton Hillis
Ryan Torain
Selvin Young (CFA)

Daniel Graham
Tony Scheffler

Brandon Marshall
Eddie Royal
Brandon Stokley
Domenik Hixon

Ryan Clady
Ben Hamilton
Chris Myers
Chris Kuper
Ryan Harris


THAT'S amazing ... THAT'S genius. And THAT'S what I worry will be missing without Jim Goodman.

Kaylore
02-16-2009, 01:03 PM
To be fair, we used a third and a first to get Moss and we used a fourth, sixth, seventh and third round pick in '08 for Marcus Thomas. Then we used the second on Crowder and the third on Harris. That's a lot of picks for one great player and one average player. I would argue that the players selecting wasn't the problem so much as prudence in using the picks correctly.

jayman_37
02-16-2009, 01:23 PM
Has anyone heard how well Xanders actually evaluates talent? What are his qualifications and where has he worked in the personnel department. From what I have heard he has worked more with the contracts and things like that as opposed to setting up a big board. Anyone know?

Archer81
02-16-2009, 01:25 PM
And remember this ... there are two picks Goodman made in the last three drafts that have gone on to excel elsewhere: Chris Myers and Domenik Hixon.

Weigmann was great this season of course, a Pro-Bowler. But there's not an informed Broncos fan with his wits about him that would turn down a Weigmann-for-Myers swap right now. In a thread yesterday, it was posted that the 26-year old Myers allowed zero sacks in 16 starts this year in Houston, and he makes less than 36-year old Weigmann will make when we re-sign him sometime in the next few weeks. Hixon's KR and recieving excellence has been greatly lamented around here, as he contributed in crunch-time to a Super Bowl winning Giants team in '07.

SO ... in the last three drafts, imo Jim Goodman has assembled an ENTIRE OFFENSE from scratch, an exciting, potent offense.

Here is "The Goodman Offense." His draft picks '06, '07, '08 in Blue:

Jay Cutler
Peyton Hillis
Ryan Torain
Selvin Young (CFA)

Daniel Graham
Tony Scheffler

Brandon Marshall
Eddie Royal
Brandon Stokley
Domenik Hixon

Ryan Clady
Ben Hamilton
Chris Myers
Chris Kuper
Ryan Harris


THAT'S amazing ... THAT'S genius. And THAT'S what I worry will be missing without Jim Goodman.


All offense...


:Broncos:

TonyR
02-16-2009, 01:38 PM
I think two decade-long solid starters on the line is pretty good for four picks.

Are you that certain about Marcus Thomas? I think the reviews on him are mixed at best.

TonyR
02-16-2009, 01:40 PM
And remember this ... there are two picks Goodman made in the last three drafts that have gone on to excel elsewhere: Chris Myers and Domenik Hixon.


Agree, but if you're going to praise the FO for picking them you also have to fault the FO for letting them go. The Myers decision appears to have been a particularly poor one.

Domostick
02-16-2009, 01:41 PM
And remember this ... there are two picks Goodman made in the last three drafts that have gone on to excel elsewhere: Chris Myers and Domenik Hixon.

Weigmann was great this season of course, a Pro-Bowler. But there's not an informed Broncos fan with his wits about him that would turn down a Weigmann-for-Myers swap right now. In a thread yesterday, it was posted that the 26-year old Myers allowed zero sacks in 16 starts this year in Houston, and he makes less than 36-year old Weigmann will make when we re-sign him sometime in the next few weeks. Hixon's KR and recieving excellence has been greatly lamented around here, as he contributed in crunch-time to a Super Bowl winning Giants team in '07.

SO ... in the last three drafts, imo Jim Goodman has assembled an ENTIRE OFFENSE from scratch, an exciting, potent offense.


Here is "The Goodman Offense." His draft picks '06, '07, '08 in Blue:

Jay Cutler
Peyton Hillis
Ryan Torain
Selvin Young (CFA)

Daniel Graham
Tony Scheffler

Brandon Marshall
Eddie Royal
Brandon Stokley
Domenik Hixon

Ryan Clady
Ben Hamilton
Chris Myers
Chris Kuper
Ryan Harris


THAT'S amazing ... THAT'S genius. And THAT'S what I worry will be missing without Jim Goodman.

It's arguable who made the picks those years. Shanahan has a great eye for offensive talent and we still don't know was actually calling the shots. My guess is Shanahan was because he was vp of football operations.

BroncoBuff
02-16-2009, 05:49 PM
Are you that certain about Marcus Thomas? I think the reviews on him are mixed at best.
I haven't seen anything other than positives, but lemme know, seriously. I wanna read anything you got. He did come right in as a rookie - a rook who'd been completely out of the game for 10 months and must've felt pretty rotten - and played a ton of snaps right away. Sure, we had the worst DTs in the league, but he seemed to play pretty well ... mostly better than Amon Gordon and Sam Adams.


If you're going to praise the FO for picking them you also have to fault the FO for letting them go. The Myers decision appears to have been a particularly poor one.
Well, Shanahan made the choice on both, at least Hixon according to him. He said he thought Hixon would be safe on the practice squad. In fact he got very defensive about it at the time, as was his style about everything.

Plus it seemed to me that Shanahan and Sundquist did the trades, and Jim Goodman was the chief scout/college coordinator, and Jeff Goodman pro personnel coordinator.


It's arguable who made the picks those years. Shanahan has a great eye for offensive talent and we still don't know was actually calling the shots. My guess is Shanahan was because he was vp of football operations.
And I was grading just the draft picks ... because that's where Goodman was nominally in charge. Yes Shanahan made the final decision, but he's ALWAYS made the final decision, and yet the drafts sucked until Goodman was chief scout and had a seat at the table. You can't call that a coincidence.

Giving Shanahan credit for these last three genius drafts is too hard for me to swallow ... it strains credulity. We've seen enough of Shanahan's track record on draft day to be pretty sure he did not suddenly change from Goofus to Gallant in one year.


I'm a HUGE Jim Goodman fan ... does it show?

BroncoBuff
02-16-2009, 05:52 PM
To be fair, we used a third and a first to get Moss and we used a fourth, sixth, seventh and third round pick in '08 for Marcus Thomas. Then we used the second on Crowder and the third on Harris. That's a lot of picks for one great player and one average player. I would argue that the players selecting wasn't the problem so much as prudence in using the picks correctly.

Good point, but like I posted above, I think Shanahan/Sundquist were the traders, Goodman was the college/draft personnel coordinator or some such title. In my mind, he made the picks he was given by Shanny/Sundquist.

But it's especially hard to swallow the fact that we paid more to move up four spots from 21 to 17 for Jarvis Moss ... more than we paid to go four spots up from 15 to 11 for Cutler.

Ouch.