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TheReverend
02-13-2009, 05:28 AM
Should the Gutless Drunk thread be stickied until Pat can pass a thorough mental health exam?

Yea or nay?

BroncoInSkinland
02-13-2009, 06:04 AM
I went with no. It should be stickied until these "organizational moves" prove to be at all useful. I am not jumping all over Bowlen and calling him Al Davis, but at the same time I am not looking at the Broncos with orange tinted glasses right now. We have a very easy line to evaluate these moves, 8-8. If next season we have a winning football team, good moves. If not, then not so much. At the time I thought the Shanahan move was boneheaded, but not neccesarily catastrophic. I have the same feeling about the Goodmans, the recent drafts make me wonder why this happened, but maybe there is a plan. I will wait and see, but the gutless thread should be stickied until it is clear if these moves had an overall plan or if Bowlen got so scared by a 3 game skid that he **** the bed. At the very least it will isolate all the bitching into one central location.

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 08:27 AM
Bowlen went from the 'best owner in sports' to a "gutless drunk". Why??

Because he decided to try and win more than one playoff game each decade??

He's a good franchise owner who is trying to get his team back on track.

People get scared of change, melt down and then stupidly lash out.

Rohirrim
02-13-2009, 08:30 AM
Bowlen went from the 'best owner in sports' to a "gutless drunk". Why??

Because he decided to try and win more than one playoff game each decade??

He's a good franchise owner who is trying to get his team back on track.

People get scared of change, melt down and then stupidly lash out.

What? You mean here on the Mane? When has that ever happened? :wiggle:

DenverBrit
02-13-2009, 08:41 AM
What? You mean here on the Mane? When has that ever happened? :wiggle:

Hang on, I'll try and find a thread. Ha!

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 09:08 AM
We finally got someone who knows what they're doing in the draft and he cans them a week before the combine. Yeah, I'm not terribly shocked people are upset.

rugbythug
02-13-2009, 09:44 AM
I don't get the Gutless part. Gutless was the fords with millen. Bowlen is the antigutless.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 09:51 AM
I only regret not making this public...

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 10:06 AM
I only regret not making this public...

I'm ashamed of you.

baja
02-13-2009, 10:15 AM
We finally got someone who knows what they're doing in the draft and he cans them a week before the combine. Yeah, I'm not terribly shocked people are upset.

Truth is you nor anyone else here know exactly who is responsible for our recent great drafts. Your concerns are based on speculation.

In order for the arguments you guys are making to be valid Bowlen would have to be a total idiot and he clearly is not. If Bowlen is guilty of anything it is being overly loyal.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 10:17 AM
I'm ashamed of you.

Haven't I punished myself enough?!?!?!?!

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 10:19 AM
Truth is you nor anyone else here know exactly who is responsible for our recent great drafts. Your concerns are based on speculation.

In order for the arguments you guys are making to be valid Bowlen would have to be a total idiot and he clearly is not. If Bowlen is guilty of anything it is being overly loyal.

Well, Shanahan did go out of his way to credit the Goodmans solely for it instead of taking any of the credit for himself, so that's a pretty good indicator.

But one thing's for sure, it sure as **** wasn't Xanders responsible for the great drafts!

Taco John
02-13-2009, 10:20 AM
Truth is you nor anyone else here know exactly who is responsible for our recent great drafts. Your concerns are based on speculation.


There's always reading...

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 10:34 AM
Royal was Shanahan's guy. The Goodman's only made him restrain himself from trading up to into the first to get him. Clady was sort of a gift. They said no one in the room thought he would last past KC because of how high they rated him. The rest is probably the Goodman's. I guess we'll find out pretty quick how good McDaniels/Xanders is at evaluating talent. I'm not optimistic.

baja
02-13-2009, 10:43 AM
There's always reading...


Part of the fun of following an NFL team is speculating on all the off season moves that is why most of us are here 365 days a year but if you think you can come with an informed opinion on the inner workings of the front office of an NFL team you are mistaken.

We are all major fans but we will never be able to "read" in public publications detailed enough information to make an informed decision about the real workings of the FO.

Popps
02-13-2009, 10:47 AM
Again, most of our big hits in the draft have been #1 or #2 picks. Clady/Cutler were high on all draft boards.

Hillis was a great steal at the end of the draft.
Marshall was a nice pick at 119. Harris a good round 3 pick.

But, we've struck out entirely on defense, including a first/second round pick.

So, again... it's not like we've just sent Bill Walsh packing, here. The goodmans showed some promise and made some nice picks, and some not so nice picks. We're three years into .500 football.

I'm only going to spend so much energy crying about their departure. Let's see how things play out, and then we can all have a big weep-session if they flail.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 10:56 AM
Again, most of our big hits in the draft have been #1 or #2 picks. Clady/Cutler were high on all draft boards.

Hillis was a great steal at the end of the draft.
Marshall was a nice pick at 119. Harris a good round 3 pick.

But, we've struck out entirely on defense, including a first/second round pick.

So, again... it's not like we've just sent Bill Walsh packing, here. The goodmans showed some promise and made some nice picks, and some not so nice picks. We're three years into .500 football.

I'm only going to spend so much energy crying about their departure. Let's see how things play out, and then we can all have a big weep-session if they flail.

What?

Harris played as well as Clady as a 3rd rounder.
Marshall's our only home grown pro bowl starter since Portis
Kuper was amazing last season
Elvis, Hillis, Woodyard, Thomas... and maybe Barrett, Larsen, Powell, etc

How do you get most are from the first two rounds?

watermock
02-13-2009, 11:12 AM
I think Bowlen screwed the pooch.

wolf754life
02-13-2009, 11:14 AM
Rev, come on man....

one afc west title in 10 yrs?

one playoff win 10 yrs?

why not shake it up?

you need to let go of shanahan, its over.

the worst defense in team history since 1960 something?

good grief sir!

Popps
02-13-2009, 11:14 AM
There's always reading...

As Kaylore pointed out with his example of Eddie Royal... we really have no idea what went on behind the scenes. You can read, and assume you're getting the whole story, if you'd like. Not always a good practice, though.

Personally, I think Shanahan's stink was all over these drafts... which is why the offensive picks worked out great and we still haven't drafted a Pro Bowl defender in 10 ****in' years.

Popps
02-13-2009, 11:17 AM
What?

Harris played as well as Clady as a 3rd rounder.
Marshall's our only home grown pro bowl starter since Portis
Kuper was amazing last season
Elvis, Hillis, Woodyard, Thomas... and maybe Barrett, Larsen, Powell, etc

How do you get most are from the first two rounds?

O.K... taking linemen in the middle rounds and having them work out is...

A. A brand new thing that the Goodmans started.

B. Something Shanahan has done his entire career.

As for Harris, I mentioned him as a solid player where he was taken. Same for some of the young guys like Woodyard. Hillis was a steal where he was taken.

But, take away Cutler and Clady, and what do we have? Those were top 12 picks.

Again, they've done fine. I'm just not sold that they're the end-all just yet.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 11:17 AM
Rev, come on man....

one afc west title in 10 yrs?

one playoff win 10 yrs?

why not shake it up?

you need to let go of shanahan, its over.

the worst defense in team history since 1960 something?

good grief sir!

Right. I let go of Shanahan.

And Bowlen let go of the best thing to happen to our draft process in Bronco history.

This is an entirely seperate issue and until McDaniel's proves to be an incredible talent evaluator on the same level as Jim Goodman, it's a step backward.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 11:21 AM
O.K... taking linemen in the middle rounds and having them work out is...

A. A brand new thing that the Goodmans started.

B. Something Shanahan has done his entire career.

As for Harris, I mentioned him as a solid player where he was taken. Same for some of the young guys like Woodyard. Hillis was a steal where he was taken.

But, take away Cutler and Clady, and what do we have? Those were top 12 picks.

Again, they've done fine. I'm just not sold that they're the end-all just yet.


What the hell are you smoking?!?

Hillis was a steal in the seventh, but Woodyard's only a solid player as an UDFA?!

And take away Cutler and Clady and what do we have?

Hmmm, let's see: How about eleven ****ing starters in 3 years of drafts (and probably more this year), one of which was a pro-bowl starter, and another two who should've been. That's an unheard of hit rate.

Taco John
02-13-2009, 11:25 AM
As Kaylore pointed out with his example of Eddie Royal... we really have no idea what went on behind the scenes.

Funny. I personally thought Kaylore's example proved the opposite. We can learn a lot about how the team operates, and get a good intuitive feel for the operation by reading the reports. Is it perfect knowledge? No. But it's enough by which to do some of our own analysis by. Otherwise, what's the point of it?


Personally, I think Shanahan's stink was all over these drafts... which is why the offensive picks worked out great and we still haven't drafted a Pro Bowl defender in 10 ****in' years.

The recent drafts are very offense heavy drafts. This is why we're not seeing breakout defenders out of them - because WRs, RBs, QBs, TEs, Gs, and Cs don't get too many reps on that side of the ball.

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 11:29 AM
What the hell are you smoking?!?

Hillis was a steal in the seventh, but Woodyard's only a solid player as an UDFA?!

And take away Cutler and Clady and what do we have?

Hmmm, let's see: How about eleven ****ing starters in 3 years of drafts (and probably more this year), one of which was a pro-bowl starter, and another two who should've been. That's an unheard of hit rate.

And yet, no playoff wins. Ironic, ain't it.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 11:32 AM
And yet, no playoff wins. Ironic, ain't it.

Well let's see... 3 years of drafts means they're all under 25, so no, in fact, you'd probably expect a lot worse than missing the playoffs by a hair. The natural progression from game experience and another off-season alone should be leaps and bounds for these guys.

montrose
02-13-2009, 11:43 AM
It should be stickied regardless of a comprehensive mental health exam for Pat.

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 11:55 AM
Well let's see... 3 years of drafts means they're all under 25, so no, in fact, you'd probably expect a lot worse than missing the playoffs by a hair. The natural progression from game experience and another off-season alone should be leaps and bounds for these guys.

I know Rev. I wanted the Broncos to win, BADLY! In fact, go back to my posts during the last 3 games of this season, and just look at how I was sure, damn sure, this team was destined for the playoffs.

I wanted it so bad, I was basically delusional.

But this team pissed down it's leg. It crapped it's pants. It zigged when it should have zagged. It layed down and died when it should have risen up and started swinging. It melted in the face of adversity. It snatched defeat from the jaws of victory... I could go on but you get the point...

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 12:04 PM
I know Rev. I wanted the Broncos to win, BADLY! In fact, go back to my posts during the last 3 games of this season, and just look at how I was sure, damn sure, this team was destined for the playoffs.

I wanted it so bad, I was basically delusional.

But this team pissed down it's leg. It crapped it's pants. It zigged when it should have zagged. It layed down and died when it should have risen up and started swinging. It melted in the face of adversity. It snatched defeat from the jaws of victory... I could go on but you get the point...

Buddy...

I'm doing my damndest to make whatever correllation you're tying that to the Goodman's drafting... and I just can't see where specifically you're making it.

Clarify please.

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 12:21 PM
Buddy...

I'm doing my damndest to make whatever correllation you're tying that to the Goodman's drafting... and I just can't see where specifically you're making it.

Clarify please.

Ok,

Unless I'm off base, I think your saying: "this team is loaded with talent, thanks to the Goodmans and more or less, Mike Shanahan, for letting the Goodmans do their job. After all, the last three drafts have been fantastic."

I think that is basically your point.

My point is that yes, this team has talent. But that talent is worthless without leadership. This team had every opportunity to get to the playoffs but it basically gave up. That tells me that all the talent in the world means nothing if there is not one common goal: to win.

Were the Goodmans the reason the Broncos won or lost on Sunday? No. They played a part in putting this team together, but that is it. They are replacable, as is Shanahan.

I've never been so disappointed in a Broncos team as I was this past season. Talk about a melt down of epic proportions. Shanahan had to go. Period.

If Bowlen feels that the front office needs revamping, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Afterall, I can't get much worse than losing the division with 3 games to go, and only having to win ONE of those games to make the playoffs, in a real bad division.

I'm sorry, but that sucks azzzzzzzzzzzzz.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 12:33 PM
Ok,

Unless I'm off base, I think your saying: "this team is loaded with talent, thanks to the Goodmans and more or less, Mike Shanahan, for letting the Goodmans do their job. After all, the last three drafts have been fantastic."

I think that is basically your point.

My point is that yes, this team has talent. But that talent is worthless without leadership. This team had every opportunity to get to the playoffs but it basically gave up. That tells me that all the talent in the world means nothing if there is not one common goal: to win.

Were the Goodmans the reason the Broncos won or lost on Sunday? No. They played a part in putting this team together, but that is it. They are replacable, as is Shanahan.

I've never been so disappointed in a Broncos team as I was this past season. Talk about a melt down of epic proportions. Shanahan had to go. Period.

If Bowlen feels that the front office needs revamping, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Afterall, I can't get much worse than losing the division with 3 games to go, and only having to win ONE of those games to make the playoffs, in a real bad division.

I'm sorry, but that sucks azzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Well we can discuss injuries, we can discuss some of the Goodman defenders coming back OFF the field for that stretch, we can discuss youth and inconsistency, but all of that is moot.

Can you find one team that drafted more successfully than Denver the past three years while Jim was running the draft?

That's the point. There's 31 teams. Find ONE.

Majik
02-13-2009, 12:38 PM
Gutless for growing tired of being stuck in mediocrity for nearly a decade????

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 12:40 PM
Well we can discuss injuries, we can discuss some of the Goodman defenders coming back OFF the field for that stretch, we can discuss youth and inconsistency, but all of that is moot.

Can you find one team that drafted more successfully than Denver the past three years while Jim was running the draft?

That's the point. There's 31 teams. Find ONE.

First, I want to say that the 2001 New England Patriots had a huge amount of injuries (perhaps more than this Broncos team) and still won the SB. Also, Shanahan would be the first one to tell you Rev, that injuries are a weak excuse for not winning 'cause every team has them.

As for the Goodmans, we can just agree to disagree. But I am skeptical about this new regime at Dove Valley, as are you. My only advice is "lets wait and see."

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 12:43 PM
First, I want to say that the 2001 New England Patriots had a huge amount of injuries (perhaps more than this Broncos team) and still won the SB. Also, Shanahan would be the first one to tell you Rev, that injuries are a weak excuse for not winning 'cause every team has them.

As for the Goodmans, we can just agree to disagree. But I am skeptical about this new regime at Dove Valley, as are you. My only advice is "lets wait and see."

The 2001 Patriots weren't a 25 year old football team. But either way, I've said many times in this one discussion that this discussion has nothing to do with Mike Shanahan. Please rewind one month to any thread, as I've hashed out that argument 10,000x and have no wish to revisit it yet again.

Tombstone RJ
02-13-2009, 01:14 PM
The 2001 Patriots weren't a 25 year old football team. But either way, I've said many times in this one discussion that this discussion has nothing to do with Mike Shanahan. Please rewind one month to any thread, as I've hashed out that argument 10,000x and have no wish to revisit it yet again.

Understood.

Popps
02-13-2009, 01:20 PM
Funny. I personally thought Kaylore's example proved the opposite. We can learn a lot about how the team operates, and get a good intuitive feel for the operation by reading the reports. Is it perfect knowledge? No. But it's enough by which to do some of our own analysis by. Otherwise, what's the point of it?.

There's certainly a point, but most speculation around the team over the past decade has been that Shanahan ran the org. with an iron fist. It seems to me that people sort of take liberty with their arguments when it suits them.

When people want to defend Shanahan, they blame personnel... but now we're complaining because the personnel people are being replaced.

I think Baja's point was simply that with all the speculation about how much control Shanahan had... we still don't really know who called the shots.

Yes, we can educate ourselves and speculate... but no one outside of the employ of the organization knows for sure.

Popps
02-13-2009, 01:26 PM
What the hell are you smoking?!?

Hillis was a steal in the seventh.

Right, in fact.. I think those were my exact words. (Great pick, steal, etc.) I probably posted that three times today, alone.



And take away Cutler and Clady and what do we have?

Hmmm, let's see: How about eleven ****ing starters in 3 years of drafts (and probably more this year), one of which was a pro-bowl starter, and another two who should've been. That's an unheard of hit rate.

That would be impressive if we hadn't had such embarrassing results in free agency. I can't imagine many teams have been worse than us in the FA market over the last decade, but particularly in the past few years.

So, if you can't sign anyone... that one leaves the players you drafted to start.

Again, we've taken some nice players on offense... and have pretty much screwed the pooch on defense. Not horrible, not stellar. Hence, I see no need to panic.

The team has been mediocre most of the past decade and particularly embarrassing the past three seasons. So, change shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

Kaylore
02-13-2009, 01:36 PM
We've drafted mostly offensive players the last three years and hit on more than half. We haven't even seen what a "true" defensive heavy draft Jim Goodman could have landed us. I disagree that our defensive drafts have been horrible. The problem is our offense fell apart and we had to fix that first and then the defense finally was exposed when Coyer's genius couldn't hide the flaws any longer. I suspect Jim Goodman would have landed some nice prospects on defense. Now we might suck at drafting for both sides of the ball. At least Xanders will be able to negotiate some nice contracts. :-[

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 01:37 PM
Right, in fact.. I think those were my exact words. (Great pick, steal, etc.) I probably posted that three times today, alone.

Perspective Popps. I know what you said, and was comparing that to how you viewed Woodyard based on where he was taken. You actually cut out a a sentence of that section for what...?

Really some comprehension would be nice. Hillis was a steal and so was WWIII. But that's really just semantics.

That would be impressive if we hadn't had such embarrassing results in free agency. I can't imagine many teams have been worse than us in the FA market over the last decade, but particularly in the past few years.

So, if you can't sign anyone... that one leaves the players you drafted to start.

Again, we've taken some nice players on offense... and have pretty much screwed the pooch on defense. Not horrible, not stellar. Hence, I see no need to panic.

The team has been mediocre most of the past decade and particularly embarrassing the past three seasons. So, change shouldn't come as a shock to anyone.

Really, where's the FA crisis? Graham's been great. Henry's problems were pretty out of left field and he PLAYED great before injury. And everyone else has been dirt cheap.

tsiguy96
02-13-2009, 01:41 PM
it doesnt matter if none of this turns out, im glad bowlen made a move to try and correct the team as it wasnt getting better as the years progressed.

TheReverend
02-13-2009, 01:42 PM
Right, in fact.. I think those were my exact words. (Great pick, steal, etc.) I probably posted that three times today, alone.

Wow. After re-reading my original post... you really went out of your way to create some non-sense.

Original post:

Hillis was a steal in the seventh, but Woodyard's only a solid player as an UDFA?!

Popps edit, completely eliminating the blatantly obvious comparison:

Hillis was a steal in the seventh.

You even had to change the punctuation to eliminate the comparison...

Popps
02-13-2009, 04:48 PM
Really some comprehension would be nice. Hillis was a steal and so was

I agree. I said Hillis was a steal several times and yet you chose to tell me like it was breaking news. So, true... paying closer attention would probably help.


Really, where's the FA crisis? Graham's been great. Henry's problems were pretty out of left field and he PLAYED great before injury. And everyone else has been dirt cheap.

:rofl:

Wow. I haven't seen a lot of people take up for the merits of the Travis Henry experience. But, I'm glad it worked for you. I guess dumping a boatload of money on a guy that's probably in prison right now WAS a great idea.

So, let's recap... we got a very high-priced blocking tight end, a guy in prison and no one else worth mentioning in the past few years.

My bad. That front office was tearing it up.

:thumbs:

baja
02-13-2009, 05:17 PM
First, I want to say that the 2001 New England Patriots had a huge amount of injuries (perhaps more than this Broncos team) and still won the SB. Also, Shanahan would be the first one to tell you Rev, that injuries are a weak excuse for not winning 'cause every team has them.

As for the Goodmans, we can just agree to disagree. But <b>I am skeptical about this new regime at Dove Valley, as are you. My only advice is "lets wait and see."

But that is no fun at all, lets go ballistic about a situation we know absolutely nothing about, now that's OM fun right there.

Popps
02-13-2009, 05:19 PM
But that is no fun at all, lets go ballistic about a situation we know absolutely nothing about, now that's OM fun right there.

http://www.zillowblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/panic-button.jpg

Meck77
02-13-2009, 08:20 PM
You don't become a successful NFL team owner without rolling the dice.

Ramble on Mr. Bowlen.....Ramble on........

I'm in the market for old Broncos jerseys and hats if anyone has had enough!

broncosteven
02-13-2009, 08:34 PM
Gutless for growing tired of being stuck in mediocrity for nearly a decade????

I consider an appearance in the 2005 AFC Championship game anything but Mediocre. The last 3 years were mediocre.

It's Bowlen's team, Should change the name to the Denver Bowlens that way the players and coaches will really know who calls the shots. Kinda like Cleveland Browns...oh wait Paul Brown was the HC...

Either Pat has made the right moves and we win it all in a couple years or this is the biggest set of mistakes since Wanny was made a HC...TWICE!

Popps
02-13-2009, 11:30 PM
I'm in the market for old Broncos jerseys and hats if anyone has had enough!

:spit: Hilarious!

TheReverend
02-14-2009, 10:08 AM
I agree. I said Hillis was a steal several times and yet you chose to tell me like it was breaking news. So, true... paying closer attention would probably help.

No, Popps. I wasn't telling you anything with the Hillis statement. If you could read you'd understand that. You even went out of your way to make it seem like I was telling you something about Hillis when I'm actually asking you a question.

There's really no chance you're this oblivious is there?

:rofl:

Wow. I haven't seen a lot of people take up for the merits of the Travis Henry experience. But, I'm glad it worked for you. I guess dumping a boatload of money on a guy that's probably in prison right now WAS a great idea.

So, let's recap... we got a very high-priced blocking tight end, a guy in prison and no one else worth mentioning in the past few years.

My bad. That front office was tearing it up.

:thumbs:

Once again, perspective, Popps.

No one is claiming Henry was a good move IN HINDSIGHT, but you couldn't swing a stick without hearing praises for the signing all over the board and in the media because it was such a perfect fit beforehand.

Did things go down hill fast, yup! But that's life.

Graham is worth every penny, and as for "no one else worth mentioning in the past few years", that's because every other signing was on the cheap and HAS lead to some great contributions by guys like CB or Casey Weigman more recently.

Who would you have picked up instead? I'll even let you use hindsight.