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View Full Version : Time To Sack Up, Pat


epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 10:15 AM
There are solutions to the problem that this franchise has had for the past 10 years (really since the old Orange Crush days) that are out there and available for you to acquire. No longer should you sit idly by on your kiester and watch every good defensive line player in the league make their money and their contributions somewhere else.

Have you wondered why Pittsburgh has won superbowls under two different coaches with a marginal QB and a marginal RB? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about Tennessee? Why have they had success with a retread QB, a rookie RB, and a stable of mediocre WR's? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about last year's Giants? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about the Patriots? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.



Pat, your Denver Broncos franchise will remain mediocre until you yourself place priority in the defensive line. There is no excuse this year. The players are avaiable. The talent is there to finally make this bunch of underachievers competitive.

Northman
02-11-2009, 10:20 AM
Actually, their Oline wasnt that great this year in pass protection. Ben got beat up a lot this year in that dept. I expect the Steelers to address that more this year.

Kaylore
02-11-2009, 10:20 AM
Our offensive line has been a priority and it's awesome. I put the D-line woes on Shanahan and Sundquist - both of whom are gone. But I know that's going to change. The few defensive rookies we brought in last year were all good (for where they were taken). I think in a few drafts and the occasional free agent move we'll be ok. I finally have faith that we have the staff to draft and develop defensive players.

Flex Gunmetal
02-11-2009, 10:22 AM
Pittsburgh had better see the OL as a priority, seeing as they allowed 46(!) sacks.

snowspot66
02-11-2009, 10:23 AM
When does FA open up?

snowspot66
02-11-2009, 10:24 AM
Pittsburgh had better see the OL as a priority, seeing as they allowed 46(!) sacks.

Wow, damn near 3 a game...that's atrocious.

bronco militia
02-11-2009, 10:24 AM
Pat got involved in football operations once in 14 years: He fired Mike Shanahan

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 10:24 AM
Pittsburgh had better see the OL as a priority, seeing as they allowed 46(!) sacks.

Pittsburgh's run game is the focus of their line. Their focus is where it should be on both sides of the ball.

Flex Gunmetal
02-11-2009, 10:28 AM
Pittsburgh's run game is the focus of their line. Their focus is where it should be on both sides of the ball.

If they want destroy Bens career, than yes, their focus is where it should be.

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 10:29 AM
Our offensive line has been a priority and it's awesome. I put the D-line woes on Shanahan and Sundquist - both of whom are gone. But I know that's going to change. The few defensive rookies we brought in last year were all good (for where they were taken). I think in a few drafts and the occasional free agent move we'll be ok. I finally have faith that we have the staff to draft and develop defensive players.

I dont have any faith in the staff...save Turner and Dennison. The others we havent seen in Denver, so I dont see any reason as to why someone would put faith in them.

Pat signs the checks. He trusted Shanny to a fault, and I would expect that he be at least a little more involved with his 32 year old coach.

As for the defensive rookies...they sucked. Yeah, a couple of them may have shown that they can be counted on for a couple plays a game, but not a single one of them is the type of contributor that this defense needs. That atrocity we called a defense was probably the biggest disgrace that we have ever seen in orange and blue.

How can you have any faith in that?

gyldenlove
02-11-2009, 10:29 AM
There are solutions to the problem that this franchise has had for the past 10 years (really since the old Orange Crush days) that are out there and available for you to acquire. No longer should you sit idly by on your kiester and watch every good defensive line player in the league make their money and their contributions somewhere else.

Have you wondered why Pittsburgh has won superbowls under two different coaches with a marginal QB and a marginal RB? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about Tennessee? Why have they had success with a retread QB, a rookie RB, and a stable of mediocre WR's? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about last year's Giants? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about the Patriots? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.



Pat, your Denver Broncos franchise will remain mediocre until you yourself place priority in the defensive line. There is no excuse this year. The players are avaiable. The talent is there to finally make this bunch of underachievers competitive.

Tell that to their best offensive lineman Alan Faneca and Ben Roethlisberger who is in the top 5 for sacks taken over the last 2 years. Pittsburghs offensive line is being helped out by Roethlisberger, it is not the other way around. Look at the super bowl, Roethlisberger had to scramble around on multiplay plays to avoid being turned into a handbag.

SoDak Bronco
02-11-2009, 10:30 AM
fa begins 2\27

Flex Gunmetal
02-11-2009, 10:31 AM
Oh, and Parker isn't a marginal RB :)

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 10:31 AM
Tell that to their best offensive lineman Alan Faneca and Ben Roethlisberger who is in the top 5 for sacks taken over the last 2 years. Pittsburghs offensive line is being helped out by Roethlisberger, it is not the other way around. Look at the super bowl, Roethlisberger had to scramble around on multiplay plays to avoid being turned into a handbag.

Part of the reason thats the case is because Ben cant make a read and deliver the ball. He stands back there and waits for one of his guys to create an opening somewhere.

The dude just stands in the pocket like he's brain dead.

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 10:32 AM
fa begins 2\27

...and Broncos fans should begin applying pressure now.

AbileneBroncoFan
02-11-2009, 10:32 AM
There are solutions to the problem that this franchise has had for the past 10 years (really since the old Orange Crush days) that are out there and available for you to acquire. No longer should you sit idly by on your kiester and watch every good defensive line player in the league make their money and their contributions somewhere else.

Have you wondered why Pittsburgh has won superbowls under two different coaches with a marginal QB and a marginal RB? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

That marginal QB is on the fast track to the Hall of Fame. That marginal RB is better than any RB on our current roster.

What about Tennessee? Why have they had success with a retread QB, a rookie RB, and a stable of mediocre WR's? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

Again, that RB is better than any RB on our current roster. How many playoff games have they won with that retread QB?

What about last year's Giants? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

And they have consistency and depth on both. Our o-line is at or almost at that point. Our d-line simply does not have that kind of talent, so you are correct in that statement.

What about the Patriots? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

Again, they have consistency on both. Please show me the linemen on the Patriots that they signed to a massive contract as many want us to do with Haynesworth or Peppers. That is not the Patriot way, and hopefully will not be the McDaniels way. There will be good d-linemen available in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round picks of this draft. And next years. And the year after that. We are not going to magically have a Patriot-like defensive line 6 months after having the worst in the NFL, no matter who we sign. And of course, having number 12 on their side helps make them look good too.

Pat, your Denver Broncos franchise will remain mediocre until you yourself place priority in the defensive line. There is no excuse this year. The players are avaiable. The talent is there to finally make this bunch of underachievers competitive.

We had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL last year. If you want to improve the offense, we should improve the RB position. We have no playmakers out of the backfield. Someone who can go the distance any team, be it on a run up the middle, a toss outside, or (perhaps most importantly in our offense) on a screen or short pass will take us to another level. I'm sure the Hillis fan club is about to jump down my neck for saying this, but we will never be an offense like NE or IND if he is our primary back. We have superstars at QB, WR, LT, RT (Harris is a hoss), and TE if Scheff can ever actually play all 16 games (big if). If anyone here thinks Hillis is as good as Chris Johnson, Willie Parker, or Brandon Jacobs (the backs of the teams in this thread) you need to watch some more games. He is perfect for our FB/change of pace back. But we are handcuffing Jay and the receivers if we pass on a versatile player like a Chris Johnson in favor of Hillis. Give us a RB like that and we literally have a threat at every position on offense, from the slot WR to the FB.

As for the defense, we need good young talent and a good motivator/schemer to coach them up. I'm fine with signing Haynesworth or Peppers as long as we don't completely break the bank for them and as long as we don't abandon the notion that we need to add talent and depth on the d-line in the draft. The Giants d-line was not the best in the league because Tuck is so good. It was the best because every starter was good, and all of their backups were good i.e. they had good players on the field regardless of who was subbed in or out. Now that we have Nolan, I expect us to find quality players and stick with them. They won't be the best in the NFL next year, but we should start seeing steady improvement. That is all we can ask for at this time. Plus with our offense and just an improved defense (middle of the pack) we can make some serious noise.

Flex Gunmetal
02-11-2009, 10:33 AM
Part of the reason thats the case is because Ben cant make a read and deliver the ball. He stands back there and waits for one of his guys to create an opening somewhere.

The dude just stands in the pocket like he's brain dead.


Dude, Pittsburgh's OL is terrible at pass protection. They could have allowed 60+ sacks if Ben wasn't able to shake a tackle and evade rushers.

socalorado
02-11-2009, 10:33 AM
Tell that to their best offensive lineman Alan Faneca and Ben Roethlisberger who is in the top 5 for sacks taken over the last 2 years. Pittsburghs offensive line is being helped out by Roethlisberger, it is not the other way around. Look at the super bowl, Roethlisberger had to scramble around on multiplay plays to avoid being turned into a handbag.

DING! WINNER! We have a winner!

Kaylore
02-11-2009, 10:39 AM
I dont have any faith in the staff...save Turner and Dennison. The others we havent seen in Denver, so I dont see any reason as to why someone would put faith in them.
Oh the humanity! These coaches aren't coming out of a vacuum, Llama. Everyone one of them has experience. I'll agree McDaniels is unproven, but his record on offense is good and our offense doesn't suck. The entire defensive staff have all done their job before and been effective. I put faith in them because I've seen their work and its excellent.

Pat signs the checks. He trusted Shanny to a fault, and I would expect that he be at least a little more involved with his 32 year old coach.
The worst owners in the world are the ones who get involved by either A) telling their team not to spend too much, thus limiting what they can do, or B) Going Al Davis/Jerry Jones on them and pretending they are GM's. Pat Bowlen isn't a football mind. What is it you want him to "get involved with" that you think would work? Pat is doing what good leaders do: Hire good people and get out of their way.

As for the defensive rookies...they sucked. Yeah, a couple of them may have shown that they can be counted on for a couple plays a game, but not a single one of them is the type of contributor that this defense needs. Yeah Spencer Larson, Wesley Woodyard and Josh Barrett all suck. ::) Powell hasn't even had chance to play yet, Llama.

That atrocity we called a defense was probably the biggest disgrace that we have ever seen in orange and blue.

How can you have any faith in that?
What is it with you and your Waltonisms?

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 10:39 AM
We had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL last year. If you want to improve the offense, we should improve the RB position. We have no playmakers out of the backfield. Someone who can go the distance any team, be it on a run up the middle, a toss outside, or (perhaps most importantly in our offense) on a screen or short pass will take us to another level. I'm sure the Hillis fan club is about to jump down my neck for saying this, but we will never be an offense like NE or IND if he is our primary back. We have superstars at QB, WR, LT, RT (Harris is a hoss), and TE if Scheff can ever actually play all 16 games (big if). If anyone here thinks Hillis is as good as Chris Johnson, Willie Parker, or Brandon Jacobs (the backs of the teams in this thread) you need to watch some more games. He is perfect for our FB/change of pace back. But we are handcuffing Jay and the receivers if we pass on a versatile player like a Chris Johnson in favor of Hillis. Give us a RB like that and we literally have a threat at every position on offense, from the slot WR to the FB.

Our offense needs nothing save consistency and a little depth in a couple of places. It does not need a "star" running back. Those are made by offensive lines like the one we have.

As for the defense, we need good young talent and a good motivator/schemer to coach them up. I'm fine with signing Haynesworth or Peppers as long as we don't completely break the bank for them and as long as we don't abandon the notion that we need to add talent and depth on the d-line in the draft. The Giants d-line was not the best in the league because Tuck is so good. It was the best because every starter was good, and all of their backups were good i.e. they had good players on the field regardless of who was subbed in or out. Now that we have Nolan, I expect us to find quality players and stick with them. They won't be the best in the NFL next year, but we should start seeing steady improvement. That is all we can ask for at this time. Plus with our offense and just an improved defense (middle of the pack) we can make some serious noise.

I dont agree with your premise that all the defense needs is youth and coaching. As we have seen over the past two seasons, that can be a recipe for disaster. What the defense needs is legitimate playmakers in the front 7. Not just above-average guys like DJ Williams, but guys like Haynesworth and Peppers who can take over games by disrupting the other offense.

The defensive front 7 should be the focus of our draft and our free agent signings.

If it is not, then we can go ahead and declare McDaniels a fool.

TheReverend
02-11-2009, 10:41 AM
Llama,

What the hell are you talking about?

Pittsburgh, ****ty offensive line and only ONE defensive lineman drafted on the first day.

NE and NY CAN fit the point you're trying to make, but you might want to be clear that the focus should be on developing the players, because you can certainly argue that Denver has invested just as many resources or more than any of those teams.

Northman
02-11-2009, 10:45 AM
We had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL last year. If you want to improve the offense, we should improve the RB position. We have no playmakers out of the backfield. Someone who can go the distance any team, be it on a run up the middle, a toss outside, or (perhaps most importantly in our offense) on a screen or short pass will take us to another level. I'm sure the Hillis fan club is about to jump down my neck for saying this, but we will never be an offense like NE or IND if he is our primary back. We have superstars at QB, WR, LT, RT (Harris is a hoss), and TE if Scheff can ever actually play all 16 games (big if). If anyone here thinks Hillis is as good as Chris Johnson, Willie Parker, or Brandon Jacobs (the backs of the teams in this thread) you need to watch some more games. He is perfect for our FB/change of pace back. But we are handcuffing Jay and the receivers if we pass on a versatile player like a Chris Johnson in favor of Hillis. Give us a RB like that and we literally have a threat at every position on offense, from the slot WR to the FB.

As for the defense, we need good young talent and a good motivator/schemer to coach them up. I'm fine with signing Haynesworth or Peppers as long as we don't completely break the bank for them and as long as we don't abandon the notion that we need to add talent and depth on the d-line in the draft. The Giants d-line was not the best in the league because Tuck is so good. It was the best because every starter was good, and all of their backups were good i.e. they had good players on the field regardless of who was subbed in or out. Now that we have Nolan, I expect us to find quality players and stick with them. They won't be the best in the NFL next year, but we should start seeing steady improvement. That is all we can ask for at this time. Plus with our offense and just an improved defense (middle of the pack) we can make some serious noise.


Well said and on the money. ^5

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 10:47 AM
Oh the humanity! These coaches aren't coming out of a vacuum, Llama. Everyone one of them has experience. I'll agree McDaniels is unproven, but his record on offense is good and our offense doesn't suck. The entire defensive staff have all done their job before and been effective. I put faith in them because I've seen their work and its excellent.

Thats juvenile, dude. You have faith in them because you have "seen their work"? You mean...you have been in the locker room and in the office and have first hand information about how they will work here?

Nobody knows how this will work. Not a soul. Not Beilichik, not Bowlen, not McDaniels, not Shanny. To say that you believe that they will succeed without any record of head-coaching and managing success if lunacy.


Yeah Spencer Larson, Wesley Woodyard and Josh Barrett all suck. Powell hasn't even had chance to play yet, Llama.

They did suck. That was possibly the worst defense ever to play in Denver since the AFL-NFL merger.

All you have to do is look at the proof (I know that your into feel-good smiley faith put in 32-year old head coaches and all, but I prefer proof). This defense went down in flames over the second half of the season on a level that made the NFL record books. We went into the last third of the season having drawn a bead on the AFC West title and a trip to the playoffs. Everyone on this board was gulping the kool-aid. Then...an HISTORIC collapse worthy of shame.

Yeah...those players showed promise. Promise enough that they couldn't do anything to get the other offense off of the field. Ever.

Kaylore
02-11-2009, 10:52 AM
I seriously cannot talk to you, Llama. You are so far away from "getting it" it's not even worth it.

Seriously, does anyone here even know what DramaLlama is trying to advocate with this thread? Is he saying we should all be terrified that this team is going to fail? Is he saying he wants Pat Bowlen to start running the front office himself? I miss Slap...

AbileneBroncoFan
02-11-2009, 10:53 AM
Our offense needs nothing save consistency and a little depth in a couple of places. It does not need a "star" running back. Those are made by offensive lines like the one we have.

So Adrian Peterson is so good because their o-line is the best in the NFL? We don't necessarily "need" a Chris Johnson type back, but it sure would be nice. We haven't had a legit threat at RB since Portis was traded. He was the man that could take a 6 yard gain and make it 6 points from anywhere on the field. You can't say that about anyone we have now. And I know you aren't saying you wouldn't want that again. But I agree it is not our first priority unless someone just blows us away at the combine.

I dont agree with your premise that all the defense needs is youth and coaching. As we have seen over the past two seasons, that can be a recipe for disaster. What the defense needs is legitimate playmakers in the front 7. Not just above-average guys like DJ Williams, but guys like Haynesworth and Peppers who can take over games by disrupting the other offense.

The defensive front 7 should be the focus of our draft and our free agent signings.

If it is not, then we can go ahead and declare McDaniels a fool.

Name me the last high priced free agent the last 4 Super Bowl winners (Steelers, Giants, Colts, and Patriots) have signed. Plaxico is the only one I can think of, and look how that worked out for them. We do not have to sign Peppers or Haynesworth to build a good defense. That is a myth. The Patriots have let guys like Lawyer Milloy and Asante Samuel walk, and it doesn't stop them from winning. If you want to be consistently good over a long time, you MUST build primarily through the draft and not tie all of your money onto one guy (unless it's a superstar QB). I suppose we should declare Mike Shanahan a fool for trading up and drafting Jay Cutler, or taking Eddie Royal last year (I know people weren't happy at the time about that). We need to focus on the front 7, but not at the expense of taking an outstanding player at, say, RB or S.



Simple as that.

vancejohnson82
02-11-2009, 11:02 AM
Ben took a lot of sacks on his own accord....

he is a high risk QB who holds the ball until the last possible second and hopes to make a play out of the pocket...

their line was not as bad as the numbers depict

Kaylore
02-11-2009, 11:04 AM
Ben took a lot of sacks on his own accord....

he is a high risk QB who holds the ball until the last possible second and hopes to make a play out of the pocket...

their line was not as bad as the numbers depict

Yup. This is Ben's game. It wins him a lot of games, though.

gyldenlove
02-11-2009, 11:04 AM
Name me the last high priced free agent the last 4 Super Bowl winners (Steelers, Giants, Colts, and Patriots) have signed. Plaxico is the only one I can think of, and look how that worked out for them. We do not have to sign Peppers or Haynesworth to build a good defense. That is a myth. The Patriots have let guys like Lawyer Milloy and Asante Samuel walk, and it doesn't stop them from winning. If you want to be consistently good over a long time, you MUST build primarily through the draft and not tie all of your money onto one guy (unless it's a superstar QB). I suppose we should declare Mike Shanahan a fool for trading up and drafting Jay Cutler, or taking Eddie Royal last year (I know people weren't happy at the time about that). We need to focus on the front 7, but not at the expense of taking an outstanding player at, say, RB or S.

Adalius Thomas. The Patiots also traded for Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

Kaylore
02-11-2009, 11:06 AM
Adalius Thomas. The Patiots also traded for Randy Moss and Wes Welker.

Yes and how many Super Bowls did they win before and after they got those guys? I'm not saying they hurt, but that's not their bread and butter. You need guys that can do a job and do it well. You build a core group of guys like that and then you can get the splashy names.

Broncos_OTM
02-11-2009, 11:07 AM
He is correct as i see it. If i picked it up right he wants playmakers and veteran guys. I aggree that bowlen was very wise in his cutting mike off from the check book during the offseason for big money players that are not worth their pay checks. I'm sure we all know the list.

This team needs someone that will lead them into 'battle'. I am all up for signing Haynseworth. The dude is a monster and would make everyone around him better.

This D really was HORRIBLE, and needs to be overhauled. and as i see it we can do it through the draft and take a couple years. or we can add some veteran pieces that will accelerate the process.

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 11:07 AM
So Adrian Peterson is so good because their o-line is the best in the NFL? We don't necessarily "need" a Chris Johnson type back, but it sure would be nice. We haven't had a legit threat at RB since Portis was traded. He was the man that could take a 6 yard gain and make it 6 points from anywhere on the field. You can't say that about anyone we have now. And I know you aren't saying you wouldn't want that again. But I agree it is not our first priority unless someone just blows us away at the combine.

I think that Hillis and another back will work fine for the Broncos. Someone that could be drafted around the third round with decent speed and a nice, sound body type.


Name me the last high priced free agent the last 4 Super Bowl winners (Steelers, Giants, Colts, and Patriots) have signed.

They didnt have to sign them because they placed emphasis on those positions in the draft. The Giants already had Strahan, Tuck, and Umenyiora, but they still drafted another DE in round 1. Pittsburgh already had a stable of talent in the front 7, but they still drafted a DL (OLB in their system) in the first round in Woodley, who contributed to their success. The Colts and Patriots both drafted for those positions and augmented them with free-agent signings. You dont think that the Pats havent consistently added new top-tier talent to their front 7? They drafted NT's when they still had the best NT in the game. They brought in LB's when they were already stacked.

The issue is this...those teams have committed long-term to adding talent to those positions in early round of the draft and through free agency. The Denver Broncos have made no such commitment. It has been shown that over the past ten years that the Broncos do not place priority in the drafting or development of players on the DL, and that they do not place priority in making up for that mistake by adding quality free agents. Shanahan paid Coyer a service by supplying him with a couple of decent LB's in Gold and Williams to go along with Wilson, but he never took the DL seriously.

When you make the mistake of not continuing to rotate talent into your line, you end up having to spend to make up the difference. That is where Denver is. The players are available to fix those mistakes. Now is the time to do it, and it should be priority #1.

footstepsfrom#27
02-11-2009, 11:11 AM
Shanny is the reason this team has pushed D-line to the side and ignored it as a priority. I doubt Bowlen has much to do with that since Mike basically had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted to in terms of the players he wanted.

Broncos_OTM
02-11-2009, 11:13 AM
Yes and how many Super Bowls did they win before and after they got those guys? I'm not saying they hurt, but that's not their bread and butter. You need guys that can do a job and do it well. You build a core group of guys like that and then you can get the splashy names.

The culture of this Defense well to put it frankly a bunch of losers. With the media and just about everyone even their own teammates acknowlodgeing how bad they are. They have to change the culture. and well the first piece was bringing in a differant set of coaches and has been noted even amongst the fans a stiring of the air.

They also need to bring guys that are winners. You can change coaches a million times but if they dont have support from their peers. they are going to fail again. Just look at the culture of loseing amongst some of the teams.

Just my Two cents

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 11:14 AM
Shanny is the reason this team has pushed D-line to the side and ignored it as a priority. I doubt Bowlen has much to do with that since Mike basically had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted to in terms of the players he wanted.

I dont disagree with that. Hence the thread title referring to Pat Bowlen addressing the issue..."sacking up" to use a term appropriate for this board. ;D

Step up and adress what has been the downfall of this team for the past 10 seasons. Do something.

Broncos_OTM
02-11-2009, 11:18 AM
Shanny is the reason this team has pushed D-line to the side and ignored it as a priority. I doubt Bowlen has much to do with that since Mike basically had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted to in terms of the players he wanted.
To a degree i can see that. We will find out soon enough just how good our Personel Dpt is post shanny. i think its a tad bit early. i put alot of blame on Sundquist. remeber his blog reguarding the drafting of all players. i think shanny had a big impact on how we drafted but to say he did it all is just wrong

Kaylore
02-11-2009, 11:19 AM
The culture of this Defense well to put it frankly a bunch of losers. With the media and just about everyone even their own teammates acknowlodgeing how bad they are. They have to change the culture. and well the first piece was bringing in a differant set of coaches and has been noted even amongst the fans a stiring of the air.

They also need to bring guys that are winners. You can change coaches a million times but if they dont have support from their peers. they are going to fail again. Just look at the culture of loseing amongst some of the teams.

Just my Two cents

If you look historically at how that changes, it's usually not with a big name free agent. Usually it's getting the right players and then over time things change. Many small things changing are what make major culture changes occur. I'd rather have 11 above average smart guys that do their job than blow the bank looking for one star to save the team. That never works.

vancejohnson82
02-11-2009, 11:19 AM
i think one of the most telling instances happened when we let Reggie Hayward and Pryce go to free agency in back to back years...

Binkythefrog
02-11-2009, 11:20 AM
There are solutions to the problem that this franchise has had for the past 10 years (really since the old Orange Crush days) that are out there and available for you to acquire. No longer should you sit idly by on your kiester and watch every good defensive line player in the league make their money and their contributions somewhere else.

Have you wondered why Pittsburgh has won superbowls under two different coaches with a marginal QB and a marginal RB? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about Tennessee? Why have they had success with a retread QB, a rookie RB, and a stable of mediocre WR's? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about last year's Giants? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.

What about the Patriots? Reason #1 - they see their defensive front line as a priority. Reason #2 - they see their offensive line as a priority.



Pat, your Denver Broncos franchise will remain mediocre until you yourself place priority in the defensive line. There is no excuse this year. The players are avaiable. The talent is there to finally make this bunch of underachievers competitive.

This is definitely not Bowlen's fault. Everyone speaks highly of the organization and they treat people. When I compare Bowlen to owners like Jerry Jones, Dan Synder and Al Davis I think the Broncos have a good owner.

We should only look out for three things from an owner:

1. Committed to spend the money necessary to build a winning franchise (check)

2. Lets other people better at making football decisions (Goodman, McDaniels) makes those decisions without worry of having to deal with the politics of the front office. Shanny was originally ok during the Super Bowl years, it just looks like he didn't have goal or and overall strategy when approaching the defense, it just looked like he tried to fill gaps.

3. Committed to making the team accessible to fans in the Denver area through good PR, a website and other events (not in Denver much so I am not sure, but the Broncos seem to be accessible and seem to be involved in the community.)

I do agree though in that the Broncos need to develop an identity for their defense and find players to match that scheme, not try to apply a scheme to random players who may not fit together well as a defense.

epicSocialism4tw
02-11-2009, 11:24 AM
i think one of the most telling instances happened when we let Reggie Hayward and Pryce go to free agency in back to back years...

Yeah...as well as Bert Berry and players who have contributed elsewhere like Montae Reagor. Also telling was the off-loading of Gerard Warren, who would still be a successful rotation player here at DT.

I have always been interested in why Trevor Pryce was treated with such nonchalance by the coaches (mainly Shanahan...who Pryce called the "little man upstairs"), when he was clearly the only decent player on the line.

vancejohnson82
02-11-2009, 11:27 AM
Yeah...as well as Bert Berry and players who have contributed elsewhere like Montae Reagor. Also telling was the off-loading of Gerard Warren, who would still be a successful rotation player here at DT.

I have always been interested in why Trevor Pryce was treated with such nonchalance by the coaches (mainly Shanahan...who Pryce called the "little man upstairs"), when he was clearly the only decent player on the line.

I knew there was somebody else...Bert Berry was a HUGE loss....

it seemed like every time we had something good going on up front defensively, we would let them go the second they were up for contract re-negotiation...

even when we went with the whole Browncos thing, we got rid of the one guy who was contributing...

i was a Shanahan supporter all the way but his priorities were clearly not on DL

Broncos_OTM
02-11-2009, 11:29 AM
If you look historically at how that changes, it's usually not with a big name free agent. Usually it's getting the right players and then over time things change. Many small things changing are what make major culture changes occur. I'd rather have 11 above average smart guys that do their job than blow the bank looking for one star to save the team. That never works.
I'm sorry i guess i should have been more clear. Denver needs to add a star or two this offseason, as well as they need to hit on all their picks, or atleast a good percentage of them. Denver can draft well and it still could end up being a couple of years before we see a turnaround. So i think it is important to Draft well and bring in the right FA's and i think that AH could very well could be that guy.

I was pretty ticked off last year when we passed on Shaun Rogers last year and Kris Jenkins the past two years. Only to take Dewayne Robertson, and for what reason because he cost less in picks. It is my opinion but SR and KJ were HUGE for there team this year. and i think both guys made the pro bowl. Even I knew they were the right picks.

AbileneBroncoFan
02-11-2009, 11:30 AM
I think that Hillis and another back will work fine for the Broncos. Someone that could be drafted around the third round with decent speed and a nice, sound body type.




They didnt have to sign them because they placed emphasis on those positions in the draft. The Giants already had Strahan, Tuck, and Umenyiora, but they still drafted another DE in round 1. Pittsburgh already had a stable of talent in the front 7, but they still drafted a DL (OLB in their system) in the first round in Woodley, who contributed to their success. The Colts and Patriots both drafted for those positions and augmented them with free-agent signings. You dont think that the Pats havent consistently added new top-tier talent to their front 7? They drafted NT's when they still had the best NT in the game. They brought in LB's when they were already stacked.

The issue is this...those teams have committed long-term to adding talent to those positions in early round of the draft and through free agency. The Denver Broncos have made no such commitment. It has been shown that over the past ten years that the Broncos do not place priority in the drafting or development of players on the DL, and that they do not place priority in making up for that mistake by adding quality free agents. Shanahan paid Coyer a service by supplying him with a couple of decent LB's in Gold and Williams to go along with Wilson, but he never took the DL seriously.

When you make the mistake of not continuing to rotate talent into your line, you end up having to spend to make up the difference. That is where Denver is. The players are available to fix those mistakes. Now is the time to do it, and it should be priority #1.

I have no problem taking one in the 1st, but if for some reason Knowshon Moreno or LeSean McCoy really impress and shoot up to top 10 value, we need to seriously look at that as a possibility. Saying "we have to draft a DL at 12 no matter what" is foolish. At 12 I want the guy that will make an impact on our team for 12-15 years, regardless of what position he plays. If that is BJ Raji or Rey Maualuga, great. If that is a RB, great. If it's a safety, great. Corner, great. But what we cannot afford to do is take a DL for the sake of taking one and who turns into an average player, while watching the player taken at 13 be an all-pro for the next 10 years. Ashley Lelie over Ed Reed comes to mind.

Broncos_OTM
02-11-2009, 11:33 AM
i think one of the most telling instances happened when we let Reggie Hayward and Pryce go to free agency in back to back years...

Well I really didnt want to let pryce go, but i can see why Reggie Hayward

Since he left

2008 Jacksonville Jaguars 16 13 24 22 2 4.5 -- 3 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2007 Jacksonville Jaguars 12 10 18 15 3 3.5 -- 1 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2006 Jacksonville Jaguars 1 1 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2005 Jacksonville Jaguars 15 15 33 27 6 8.5 -- 6 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2004 Denver Broncos 16 15 43 31 12 10.5 -- 2 1 76 76.0 76 0 -- --
2003 Denver Broncos 16 2 27 23 4 8.5 -- 5 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2002 Denver Broncos 9 0 9 6 3 0.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2001 Denver Broncos 6 2 18 15 3 3.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
TOTAL 172 139 33 38.5 0 17 1 76 -- 76 0 0 0

I can imagine the complaints we would be hearing if he had stayed aboard and produced like this on the contract he was given. We will never know how well he would have played if he had stayed but we can see how well he did play when he left. And he had some REALLY good tackles to help take the load off of him in J Henderson and Stroud.

TheReverend
02-11-2009, 11:36 AM
Well I really didnt want to let pryce go, but i can see why Reggie Hayward

Since he left

2008 Jacksonville Jaguars 16 13 24 22 2 4.5 -- 3 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2007 Jacksonville Jaguars 12 10 18 15 3 3.5 -- 1 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2006 Jacksonville Jaguars 1 1 0 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2005 Jacksonville Jaguars 15 15 33 27 6 8.5 -- 6 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2004 Denver Broncos 16 15 43 31 12 10.5 -- 2 1 76 76.0 76 0 -- --
2003 Denver Broncos 16 2 27 23 4 8.5 -- 5 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2002 Denver Broncos 9 0 9 6 3 0.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
2001 Denver Broncos 6 2 18 15 3 3.0 -- 0 -- -- 0.0 -- -- -- --
TOTAL 172 139 33 38.5 0 17 1 76 -- 76 0 0 0

I can imagine the complaints we would be hearing if he had stayed aboard and produced like this on the contract he was given. We will never know how well he would have played if he had stayed but we can see how well he did play when he left. And he had some REALLY good tackles to help take the load off of him in J Henderson and Stroud.

CB was way better for cheaper. Unfortunately, he just broke.

socalorado
02-11-2009, 11:39 AM
I have no problem taking one in the 1st, but if for some reason Knowshon Moreno or LeSean McCoy really impress and shoot up to top 10 value, we need to seriously look at that as a possibility. Saying "we have to draft a DL at 12 no matter what" is foolish. At 12 I want the guy that will make an impact on our team for 12-15 years, regardless of what position he plays. If that is BJ Raji or Rey Maualuga, great. If that is a RB, great. If it's a safety, great. Corner, great. But what we cannot afford to do is take a DL for the sake of taking one and who turns into an average player, while watching the player taken at 13 be an all-pro for the next 10 years. Ashley Lelie over Ed Reed comes to mind.

I agree to some degree. This team's defense sucks. Just plain sucks bad. We all know this. No need to beat a dead horse.
To fix it will require a plan and i think Bowlen has put that plan into action with his boys. Nolan, MCD and the Goodmans.
I am not worried, nor should any of you.
DEN will solve this. I am just glad that the defense needs all the work and the offense is basically good.
I am of the opinion that DEN shoulds try to address all 3 levels of the defense in FA if possible.

Broncos_OTM
02-11-2009, 11:44 AM
CB was way better for cheaper. Unfortunately, he just broke.

Aggreed, Not to mention Trevor Pryce IMO forced Denver's hand in letting him go. He was injured two years previous and the year he did come back he had 4 sacks. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that Denver thought he was washed up. 9 years in the leauge and by numbers alone coupled by his injury just wasnt worth the money for the amount of production they assumed they were gonna get. Trevor went to Baltimore, and i am gonna go out on a limb here again with the attitude i am gonna show them. and produced something he woudlnt have done here. with the disputes and the way he felt he was being treated. and since his first year in baltimore 2.0 and 4.5 sacks.

I think Denver made the right Decision. they just failed at replaceing him. where i aggree that the Dline was neglected.

New England has had success at getting rid of players at just right time. but they put a high emphasis on replaceing them something we didnt do