Stimulus To Do More Damage Than Good?

[Smiling Assassin27]

Note the bolded parts of this article and tell us again why this bill MUST be passed.

CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul
Stephen Dinan (Contact)

President Obama's economic recovery package will actually hurt the economy more in the long run than if he were to do nothing, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.

CBO, the official scorekeepers for legislation, said the House and Senate bills will help in the short term but result in so much government debt that within a few years they would crowd out private investment, actually leading to a lower Gross Domestic Product over the next 10 years than if the government had done nothing.

CBO estimates that by 2019 the Senate legislation would reduce GDP by 0.1 percent to 0.3 percent on net. [The House bill] would have similar long-run effects, CBO said in a letter to Sen. Judd Gregg, New Hampshire Republican, who was tapped by Mr. Obama on Tuesday to be Commerce Secretary.

The House last week passed a bill totaling about $820 billion while the Senate is working on a proposal reaching about $900 billion in spending increases and tax cuts.

But Republicans and some moderate Democrats have balked at the size of the bill and at some of the spending items included in it, arguing they won't produce immediate jobs, which is the stated goal of the bill.

The budget office had previously estimated service the debt due to the new spending could add hundreds of millions of dollars to the cost of the bill -- forcing the crowd-out.

CBOs basic assumption is that, in the long run, each dollar of additional debt crowds out about a third of a dollars worth of private domestic capital, CBO said in its letter.

CBO said there is no crowding out in the short term, so the plan would succeed in boosting growth in 2009 and 2010.

The agency projected the Senate bill would produce between 1.4 percent and 4.1 percent higher growth in 2009 than if there was no action. For 2010, the plan would boost growth by 1.2 percent to 3.6 percent.

CBO did project the bill would create jobs, though by 2011 the effects would be minuscule.

[Spider]

I am trying to score a load from Ft .Carson Colorado to Limestone maine .... pays 7,900 ........

[Hotrod]

When do we get back to the barter system?

[cutthemdown]

The bill is too large that's for sure. I think a bunch of smaller bills, more streamlined at specific industries and projects would have been a better idea.

Congress makes things so big because they want to hide all the pork inside.

[Dukes]

It's obvious Obama is trying to get this passed as quickly as possible before more people find out it's just pork. Change indeed!

[barryr]

Just throw a bunch of money around and problems will solve themselves. That always works, according to the democrats anyway.

[Dukes]

Just throw a bunch of money around and problems will solve themselves. That always works, according to the democrats anyway.

Only if they are in control of the money and determine who gets what.

[Spider]

know this is probably a bad time since everyone is getting along and all ..... But would either of you 2 like to back up those statements ? with actual facts ......And then tell me how it differs from giving multi billion dollar corporations millions ? ....

[Hotrod]

Only if they are in control of the money and determine who gets what.

In all honesty both partys do this all to much

[Dukes]

In all honesty both partys do this all to much

I can't disagree with that.

[Spider]

In all honesty both partys do this all to much

i dont like it when you make sense ...... I almost feel guilty for all of them dodge jokes .... ok not really ;D

[TheDave]

Good God there are some stupid people on this board...

If the bill does boost GDP by up to 4.1% this year...

and by up to 3.6% in 2010...

and as much as 1.2& in 2011...

while only costing us as much as .3% in 2019...

then it is a net positive of 8.6%... and thats not taking into account TVM.


It's called math, everyone should try it from time to time.

[Hotrod]

Good God there are some stupid people on this board...

If the bill does boost GDP by up to 4.1% this year...

and by up to 3.6% in 2010...

and as much as 1.2& in 2011...

while only costing us as much as .3% in 2019...

then it is a net positive of 8.6%... and that not taking into account TVM.


It's called math, everyone should try it from time to time.

Can we get those numbers guaranteed???

[TheDave]

Can we get those numbers guaranteed???

no...

[Hotrod]

no...

were ****ed

[TheDave]

were ****ed


Oh were ****ed... were just slightly less ****ed with this bill than without.

[Spider]

Good God there are some stupid people on this board...

If the bill does boost GDP by up to 4.1% this year...

and by up to 3.6% in 2010...

and as much as 1.2& in 2011...

while only costing us as much as .3% in 2019...

then it is a net positive of 8.6%... and thats not taking into account TVM.


It's called math, everyone should try it from time to time.
ok I will try .....
2+2 divided by 12 , carry the 5 .... I got 144,378 ............;D

[TheDave]

ok I will try .....
2+2 divided by 12 , carry the 5 .... I got 144,378 ............;D


I believe that was your score for the basketball game during survivor...;D

[Spider]

I believe that was your score for the basketball game during survivor...;D

LOL , I know both teams shaved points to make me look bad

[epicSocialism4tw]

Good God there are some stupid people on this board...
.


You.

[epicSocialism4tw]

This is yet another example of Obama setting up his cronies with appropriations.

Obama is the new Dick Cheney...except Obama seems to have an affinity folks who cheat on their taxes, and Obama thinks that he can lie to your face and that you'll still place your "hope" for "change" in him.

[TheDave]

You.

It's cute the way you follow me from thread to thread...

[Paladin]

You boys need another point of view:

Yes, We Can
The GOP says the stimulus can't create jobs. They're wrong. Cutting the Unemployment Line Even in this economic chaos, some jobs remain recession resistant

By Daniel Gross
Newsweek; Feb 5, 2009

There are three options government can pursue when the economy goes south. First, the Fed can cut interest rates, buy up assets, and extend credit, all of which the central bank has already done. Second, Congress can cut taxes on businesses and consumers in the hope they will spend more. The first effort—last year's tax rebates—didn't have the intended effect since consumers used much of the windfall to pay down debt or save. The substantial tax cuts that will be part of the Obama stimulus package would likely have a similarly muted effect. Businesses and consumers, facing a tough credit environment and needing to repair their balance sheets, will likely use proceeds from the tax cuts to tide themselves over. The third option is for the government to directly purchase goods and services, to substitute the demand that consumers and businesses aren't providing.
The Washington remnant of the Republican Party—40 senators and 178 representatives—is all for Options 1 and 2, cheap money and tax cuts. But they're having great difficulty with Option 3. They have forgotten Richard Nixon's famous line that "we're all Keynesians now." To them, spending government funds to goose the economy is unacceptable, not just because of the possibility of poor execution —i.e., pork. No, many are rejecting it as a matter of principle. Even though several Republican governors are pleading for assistance in the form of federal spending, Washington Republicans are saying no.

Newly elected Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele laid down the party line on CNN: "Let's get this notion out of our heads that the government create jobs. Not in the history of mankind has the government ever created a job." Sen. Jim DeMint of South Carolina succinctly summed up his opposition: "We can't keep spending and borrowing to get us out of a recession." Sen. Kit Bond of Missouri concedes that some government spending—such as spending on highways—can create jobs but thinks that spending on mass transit or alternative-transit infrastructure isn't stimulative.

These claims are so peculiar that it's hard to know where to begin. Contrary to Steele's assertion, in the history of mankind, the government has in fact created many, many jobs (including the one he held for a few years: lieutenant governor of Maryland). Today, government accounts for 22.5 million of the nation's 135.5 million payroll jobs, or 16.6 percent. Those numbers include people who work for the federal, state, and local governments—doctors and nurses in public hospitals and teachers at elementary schools and public universities. Government also has created—and continues to create—all sorts of private-sector jobs, for defense contractors, the aerospace industry, medical-device makers, real estate companies, and construction firms. The economy of the Washington, D.C., area has boomed in recent decades not so much because the federal government has expanded its payrolls massively but because private government contractors have been thriving. As the Bureau of Labor Statistics notes, in January, "the large areas with the lowest jobless rates in December were Oklahoma City, Okla., and Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, D.C.-Va.-Md.-W.Va."—a capital city, and the capital city.

Contra DeMint, borrowing and spending are pretty much how the government has pulled itself out of every modern recession. And contrary to what Bond argues, mass transit can be plenty stimulative. (Here's a report from the New York Times on the economic impact of the Second Avenue subway project in Manhattan.) For an example of how a little spending on mass transit might save jobs, Bond could look a little closer to home. The New York Times reported Wednesday on how St. Louis' inability to fund its bus system means hundreds of employees will find it impossible to get to work. In the case of St. Louis, several million dollars might help save a few jobs. That sounds defensive. But in a period when Americans are losing jobs at a furious clip, when the economy is shrinking rapidly, when monetary policy is near exhaustion, and when tax cuts aren't likely to work as they do in ordinary times, the highest priority is simply to stop the downward spiral.

There's plenty of legitimate argument over the stimulus—too much, too little, not fast enough, too fast, the proper mix of tax cuts and spending. Alan Blinder's op-ed in the Wall Street Journal is an excellent guide to some of the debates. But the Republicans in Washington aren't reading Blinder. And it's almost impossible for the Obama team, or anybody else, to engage them in serious discussions. Virtually all the prominent Republican economists who were associated with the Bush administration in any way have fled Washington for the private sector or academia. Today, the congressional Republicans are taking their advice from Joe the Plumber.

[ak1971]

It's called math, everyone should try it from time to time.

Whats that? ....'Yes sir you have to take Credit Life on your loan'

[BroncoInferno]

You.

If you are against something, we can all rest assured that it is the right thing to do. You are the most ignorant, self-aggrandizing person on this board.

[Paladin]

Drama LLama is the star of the "dumb blonde" jokes.

[watermock]

Borowing against an already astronomical debt isn't a good idea, especially when the invitable inflation rears it head from the extra capital. Then, the fed starts charging what, like the Carter years, 22% prime rate? Now these are different times, in the 70's they actually tried, and achived the mortal wounding of American industry.

But hey, the fed made out like bandits. Imagine how the debt will explode with even 12% interest, it will double every 5 years, and we could be looking at not 13 trillion but an astounding 25 trilion in debt and posible stagflation as these "pimped up" jobs that won't be sustainable expire.

The myth of the "service economy is just that. We have to actually MAKE SOMETHING.I know this sends chills uo Al Gores spine in his private jet, but facts are facts, and what we will wind up is 3 million slackers, underworked, poorly skilled and clock watchers.

Unfortunately, Obamas not at all interested in any meaningfull nuclear or transportation infrastructure. If you look at the bill, think transportatin and a new smarter power grid are tiny minorities of the collosal pork bill.

An expanded war in Kyber pass with an enemy that Brezinski created (on of Obama's top advisors) is absolutely sensless.

Oil is still the new gold, and where our security intrests lay.

In addition, we will add more reglation, pushing ever more companies off our shores. hen are we going to punish China for it's incredible pollution, which is visible from space?

Meanwhile, WalMart is enoying a very good year as new stores pop up almost daily.

The Obama bounce will last maybe thru 2011, right abiut the time Iran takes Iraq.

Sorry, the Greatest depression is upon us, and this time, we cant spend our way out.

[watermock]

Someone from SD (not Dashle) said, "The average SD resident makes 30K, I find it wastefull folly to create 1.3m temporary jobs at 800k a pop."

[TheDave]

Whats that? ....'Yes sir you have to take Credit Life on your loan'

I wonder if you can go to hell for packing too much insurance on people... I should probably go to confession for that one f these days.

[watermock]

Car dealers always sell "Choak and croak". It's about 90% pure profit.

Hundai is offering it as a "favor". Like your credit isn't ruined before they take your car.

How about a no penalty for 3 months if your behind?

[watermock]

You should have insurance for what your worth, no more.

[epicSocialism4tw]

If you are against something, we can all rest assured that it is the right thing to do. You are the most ignorant, self-aggrandizing person on this board.


All of these insults and yet not one of you flaming dogmatic liberals can come up with any sort of semblance of an intellectual position on anything. Heck, you claim to be an athiest, are in reality an agnostic, and cant come up with a definition for either of them. Come up with some tuition money and get an education, man. Until then, you are best suited to clamp your pie hole shut and watch from the sidelines...like in the rest of your life.

[Spider]

All of these insults and yet not one of you flaming dogmatic liberals can come up with any sort of semblance of an intellectual position on anything. Heck, you claim to be an athiest, are in reality an agnostic, and cant come up with a definition for either of them. Come up with some tuition money and get an education, man. Until then, you are best suited to clamp your pie hole shut and watch from the sidelines...like in the rest of your life.

LOL we have came up with solid positions , we just learned along time ago , it went wasted .........

[BroncoInferno]

All of these insults and yet not one of you flaming dogmatic liberals can come up with any sort of semblance of an intellectual position on anything.

LOL What a laugh. You are constantly challenged to provide any semblance of evidence to suuport your inane positions, and do nothing but obfuscate and posture. The pseudo-intellectual personified.

Heck, you claim to be an athiest, are in reality an agnostic

Um, no. An agnostic claims it is impossible to know whether or not there is a god. I disagree. I say you can know based on the evidence provided by the theist. Since you theists have utterly failed to provide one shred of evidence, I conclude your god does not exist. If I'm not an atheist, I'm certainly not an agnostic either.

and cant come up with a definition for either of them.

How bout this:

a⋅the⋅ist
–noun
a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

ag⋅nos⋅tic
–noun
a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable

Maybe you're the one who needs to consult a dictionary.

Until then, you are best suited to clamp your pie hole shut and watch from the sidelines...like in the rest of your life.

What a Christ-like thing to say. I am sure the big guy is beaming with pride.

[epicSocialism4tw]

What a Christ-like thing to say. I am sure the big guy is beaming with pride.

What Christ would or would not advocate shouldnt be a concern of yours considering your agnatheism.

My personal philosophy is that sometimes a heavy hand is needed. Consider it a throat punch of encouragement.

[BroncoInferno]

What Christ would or would not advocate shouldnt be a concern of yours considering your agnatheism.

It should be a concern of yours, though. "Turn the other cheek" ring a bell?

My personal philosophy is that sometimes a heavy hand is needed.

That's a really heavy hand you've got there, Mr. Internet Tough Guy.

[epicSocialism4tw]

It should be a concern of yours, though. "Turn the other cheek" ring a bell?

Is that an agnatheists attempt at Biblical exegesis there?


That's a really heavy hand you've got there, Mr. Internet Tough Guy.

Hey, just calling a spade a spade. Its not my words that hurt, but as for the truth? Thats a bit different, now isnt it.

[defenseman]

no...

exactly.....the reason NOT to have "this" stimulus, no gaurantee, DON'T roll the dice......by the way, it's not working.....they'll get greedy and inflation will take out the lot of them...dman

[rastaman]

Republican leadership screwed this economy up over the last 8 years!! Now suddenly Republicans have great ideas???

Why didn't the Republicans step forward over 4 years ago to head of this disaster???

[watermock]

Greenspan said all was rosy.

I guess he put in some wrong variables in his computer model.

[rastaman]

Greenspan said all was rosy.

I guess he put in some wrong variables in his computer model.

Yep! The old goat should loose his citizenship.

[watermock]

The problem is Obama is bring in Volker, who destroyed the economy of the 70's with 22% prime rate, and Barney Frank, who both deied any problem, with Timothy Geithner, another import from the fed to become Treasury sec.

[rastaman]

Can't imagine a repeat of the 70's with 22% rate. After all, Obama wants an 8 year Presidency. Obama is no Jimmy Carter even though Carter was handed a bag flaming do-do when he took office just like Obama has inherited one big mess. Something tells me despite the Volker nomination, the Obama Admin. has a pragmatic outside the box game plan not to return to the high interest rate-recessionary period of the 70's, which denied Carter his 2nd term in office.

Of course the Republican Congress are hoping for just the opposite. They need the economy to revert back to a Jimmy Carter economy....b/c thats the shortest and surest way to regain majority in Congress as well as win the WH. Republican's will not care about the suffering amongst the citizens of this country with this strategy.....its all about their ideology and power.

Obama's plan to counter the Republican strategy....will be to expose, isolate, starve, and decimate what's left of the Republican Neo Cons and their failed agenda.

Its going to be interesting----thats for sure.

[BroncoInferno]

exactly.....the reason NOT to have "this" stimulus, no gaurantee, DON'T roll the dice......by the way, it's not working.....they'll get greedy and inflation will take out the lot of them...dman

It's a damn shame all you freakin' genius internet experts are not calling the shots. I am sure YOUR plan would do wonders Uhh By the way, good to hear from you dman. I figured they put you in the rubber room after Obama was elected.

[ak1971]

The problem is Obama is bring in Volker, who destroyed the economy of the 70's with 22% prime rate, and Barney Frank, who both deied any problem, with Timothy Geithner, another import from the fed to become Treasury sec.

my thoughts exactly.

[ak1971]

I wonder if you can go to hell for packing too much insurance on people... I should probably go to confession for that one f these days.

Yeah..I'm pretty sure I'm going to hell for my consumer finance days. I've got some crazy repo stories that are always fun to tell though.

[Spider]

my thoughts exactly.

then rethink .......... I dont know how old you are , but what happen and Mocks versions of what happened are 2 different things

[Meck77]

It's pretty simple whether the stimulus is good or night. It's good for those who will benefit and bad for those who'll face insane taxes. The immediate generation as a whole will benefit in the short run. Our kids? Well that's another story.

[cutthemdown]

It's pretty simple whether the stimulus is good or night. It's good for those who will benefit and bad for those who'll face insane taxes. The immediate generation as a whole will benefit in the short run. Our kids? Well that's another story.

It really is Bush's fault this time. Had he not been such a crappy leader and became so hated no way Obama could have won the election.

[rastaman]

It's pretty simple whether the stimulus is good or night. It's good for those who will benefit and bad for those who'll face insane taxes. The immediate generation as a whole will benefit in the short run. Our kids? Well that's another story.

Come on Meck have some faith! America can pay and produce its way out of this economic mess. From the minimum wage worker to the wealhiest 1% amonst us, we can pay off the national debt, balance the trade deficits, become the world leader in lending, bring back our manufacturing base, create renewable energy and the jobs that go along with them.

This could all be accomplished in a 10 or 12 year period! Then our kids (those born btwn 1995-present) would have a future and not be saddled with debt and a bleak futures.

However, the wealthiest elitist that own and run this country have so divided independent, moderates, republicans, and democrats voters. The average citizen earning btwn minimum wage to $150K annually need band together and figure this out chit out.

[Meck77]

Don't know where you live Rastaman but taxes are shooting through the ****ing roof in Colorado. This is only the beginning.

Car registrations going up. They are going to toll roads that were once free. Tobacco tax is up across the country. There is legislation for a fuel tax. There are bills making their way through our legislature to raise property taxes. Where does it end?

Pretty soon nobody will have any discretionary income at all!

[Spider]

It's pretty simple whether the stimulus is good or night. It's good for those who will benefit and bad for those who'll face insane taxes. The immediate generation as a whole will benefit in the short run. Our kids? Well that's another story.

i really shouldnt post this , cause dont know if it is true or not any more ,and i dont remember all of it , or how it works , but here is what I was told how debt works .........
Take GM , they build a car , as soon as that car is out of the assembly plant door , GM marks it down as a sale ....... That works for GM , but not the car lot selling the car, when the car doesnt sell , it gets put in the loss column ..... government works on budget , very similar to this they just use a different model of projection income , So while they go in debt wages , material etc , the debt isnt as big as we are led to believe ...... here let me put it like this meck ..... you build houses for a living ( The Dave may need to bail me out here ;D ) as soon as you are done , you mark the house sold in your books for x amount of dollars , before it hit the market , so the house sells for less then what you marked it down as ...... thats a loss on paper , but it still sold for more money then you have in, then you get the tax credit on the loss ..... o course there is alot more to it , and it isnt as flagrant as posted here , but this is cooking the books , and Government is excellent at it
thats cooking the books , everyone does it ........ i tried to explain this as best as I could

[Spider]

And this form of projection income is done in trucking ( big companies that can afford the accountants , lawyers etc ) Banking , just about anything .......

[cutthemdown]

Don't know where you live Rastaman but taxes are shooting through the ****ing roof in Colorado. This is only the beginning.

Car registrations going up. They are going to toll roads that were once free. Tobacco tax is up across the country. There is legislation for a fuel tax. There are bills making their way through our legislature to raise property taxes. Where does it end?

Pretty soon nobody will have any discretionary income at all!

MECK77 please report to the factory for reprogramming!!!!!!