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View Full Version : XXII: how much blame do you hang on Elway?


mwill07
02-03-2009, 06:40 PM
I'm on another message board arguing about SB XXII - the 42-10 loss to Washington. My antagonist is making the claim that the terrible 2nd quarter where the Broncos were outscored 35-0 was caused by Elways poor play putting pressure on the D.

That's not how I remember things - I remember a D who couldn't cover a bed. But, looking a the game log, Elway didn't do much to help the cause either.

I know - it's a terrible memory, but I think 21 years is enough time, plus those early SB losses only made XXXI and XXXII even sweeter so I think it's ok to talk about them. Tell me what you remember about this game, and how much blame Elway deserved.

Spider
02-03-2009, 06:49 PM
Dan ****ing Reeves . Timmy Smith , ****ing counter trey .........**** it , and screw you for bringing it up

Spider
02-03-2009, 06:52 PM
Doug Williams was finished after that SB , Timmy Smith lasted until 1990 from 87-90 ..... bull**** getting whipped by a bunch of flukes .. Dan ****ing Reeves fault

Bronco Bob
02-03-2009, 06:54 PM
We all sort of stopped watching after a while, too shocked and disgusted.
Started out pretty good, Denver moving the ball well. The Denver defense
forcing 3 and outs. But then it was like the hand of God was put on Williams
shoulder and Williams just started carving up the defense like a Thanksgiving
turkey. Every time he got the ball he was heaving it for a long touchdown.
And as usual, it was the usual Reeves offense, Sammy Winder for no gain,
Sammy Winder for no gain, Elway running for his life trying to make a 3rd and
long. At least that's how I remember it.

Spider
02-03-2009, 06:55 PM
How in the hell do you give up 35 points in 1 quarter ?

mwill07
02-03-2009, 06:59 PM
Doug Williams was finished after that SB , Timmy Smith lasted until 1990 from 87-90 ..... bull**** getting whipped by a bunch of flukes .. Dan ****ing Reeves fault

go back to the happy place - "This one's for John"....

Spider
02-03-2009, 07:00 PM
go back to the happy place - "This one's for John"....

now you got me hating the Redskins all over again ......and now the niners , Giants and Phill Simms ....... I knew I never should have clicked on this thread .....

TDmvp
02-03-2009, 07:01 PM
30 post rule...

mwill07
02-03-2009, 07:03 PM
here's the play-by-play (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/super/superbowl-xxii-plays.htm). I'm not posting the while thing because, well, it isn't suitable for the faint-of-heart. Viewer discretion applies.

Spider
02-03-2009, 07:03 PM
this one hurts cause we beat the redskins in the regular season , it was a close game .....elway was on that game ........then we lay the biggest egg ever in the SB ..... Danny ****ing Reeves = Chokster

mwill07
02-03-2009, 07:05 PM
30 post rule...

come on now...it's time for healing. It was 21 years ago. It's healthy to let it out.

Garcia Bronco
02-03-2009, 07:05 PM
The logic is flawed. At best Elwayand the offense could match what the Redskins output. But the truth is those hogs made holes so big that you could have drove a truck through them. Their defense owned us and their offensive line owned us further still.

phillybroncosnut
02-03-2009, 07:08 PM
That was a Doug Williams fumble while the Broncos held a 10-0 lead. We would have had the ball on I think the Skins 20 yardline. We get that ball, which was as obvious fumble as there ever was, and if we put another 7 up, I think we run away with that game.
The refs were so concerned with Williams injury, they totally blew the call.

Oh well.... This one's for John!

Wes Mantooth
02-03-2009, 07:10 PM
I ate mongolian buffet today. It was delicious.

Garcia Bronco
02-03-2009, 07:17 PM
That was a Doug Williams fumble while the Broncos held a 10-0 lead. We would have had the ball on I think the Skins 20 yardline. We get that ball, which was as obvious fumble as there ever was, and if we put another 7 up, I think we run away with that game.
The refs were so concerned with Williams injury, they totally blew the call.

Oh well.... This one's for John!


They blew the whistle. Sound like anything that happen recently?

Jason in LA
02-03-2009, 07:22 PM
Elway would have to throw five ints in the 2nd quarter to take the blame for that one. It's a silly argument. And it was like over 20 years ago. Who gives a ****?

Malcontent
02-03-2009, 07:24 PM
As a home town AZ Cardinal fan...2nd to Bronco fan(of course)would you have rather lost the way the Cards did Sunday...or blown out like Denver did. I was crushed at the loss on Sunday, and feel I would rather get 55'd to 10 instead of losing in the final freakin minute..!!

ZONA
02-03-2009, 07:29 PM
It's not really that hard to understand. Doug Williams simply got into a zone and Elway did not. Even great players don't play well some times and sometimes average players play great. It wasn't just those 2 guys either. The Redskins as a whole just turned it up and our guys didn't.

I look back at those years and I think every one of those teams we played were better then us.

What gets my goat still is that loss to Jacksonville. We were rolling and hot and I'm pretty sure we could have won it all that year also. We could have won 3 in a row.

Jason in LA
02-03-2009, 07:30 PM
here's the play-by-play (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/super/superbowl-xxii-plays.htm). I'm not posting the while thing because, well, it isn't suitable for the faint-of-heart. Viewer discretion applies.

Man, that's horrible.

None of those 35 points can be blamed on Elway. The Skins went the bulk of the field five times. Now the Broncos O didn't do much of anything. One good drive that ended in a missed FG. The Skins had some huge gains in that quarter. That's all on the defense.

Jason in LA
02-03-2009, 07:32 PM
As a home town AZ Cardinal fan...2nd to Bronco fan(of course)would you have rather lost the way the Cards did Sunday...or blown out like Denver did. I was crushed at the loss on Sunday, and feel I would rather get 55'd to 10 instead of losing in the final freakin minute..!!

You can never live down 55-10.

Malcontent
02-03-2009, 07:41 PM
You can never live down 55-10.

As a selfish fan I am having a harder time knowing the Cards "shoulda" won that game! As a Bronco fan..I beleive the Skins owned them that day....the stillers did not own the Cards on Sunday. Any other cards supporters here on the mane??

Rock Chalk
02-03-2009, 07:42 PM
You can never live down 55-10.

A ****ing men.

I lived in the god damn bay area when that happened.

I ****ing hate California.

Spider
02-03-2009, 07:42 PM
21 years and I am stil not over it ...... hell I still hate the Cowboys for SB 12

mwill07
02-03-2009, 07:44 PM
It's not really that hard to understand. Doug Williams simply got into a zone and Elway did not. Even great players don't play well some times and sometimes average players play great. It wasn't just those 2 guys either. The Redskins as a whole just turned it up and our guys didn't.

I look back at those years and I think every one of those teams we played were better then us.

What gets my goat still is that loss to Jacksonville. We were rolling and hot and I'm pretty sure we could have won it all that year also. We could have won 3 in a row.

Jax loss was terrible. I'm not sure if it was worse than XXII or not...during XXII I was in Jr High, and had to put up with typical raider fan crap.

eta: raider fan crap = picking on Bronco fan even though their team sucks. At my school, the only reason people were raider fans is they wanted to be the opposite of Bronco fans.

Killericon
02-03-2009, 07:45 PM
All's well that ends well, right?

Man-Goblin
02-03-2009, 07:55 PM
I wasn't that old, but I remember crying at halftime. I believe the Broncos were favored by 3 in that game; fitting because they would have won 10-7 sans the second quarter.

Crashman44b
02-03-2009, 08:11 PM
Come on, I could have ran for 200 yards againist our D that night. Elway wasnt to blame.

Los Broncos
02-03-2009, 09:26 PM
I didn't get over that loss for a long time, damn Reeves.

Crushaholic
02-03-2009, 10:35 PM
Elway was certainly not to blame for that loss...

azbroncfan
02-04-2009, 01:04 PM
Complete team loss. Offense couldn't keep the D off the field and the D couldn't stop last years Washington Huskies. Can't pinpoint that game on one player although that game showed how bad Ted Lilly was at S.

cutthemdown
02-04-2009, 01:10 PM
I remember Broncos not scoring early in the game when they had chances and then protection breaking down. That and Broncos couldn't stop the run after the half.

no-pseudo-fan
02-04-2009, 01:44 PM
Actually if you throw out that 2nd quarter, we win 10-7.

vancejohnson82
02-04-2009, 03:10 PM
the missed field goal in the beginning of the 2nd sealed the deal....

rout was on at that point

mwill07
02-04-2009, 06:18 PM
so here are some key elements from my debate:

Have you gone back and looked at the game logs? The reason those games were so lopsided was largely due to Elway's mistakes. In fact, most of them were close, or even had Denver ahead until Elway turned the ball over and/or failed to move the team.

I've done this analysis before and I'm not going to go through it again, but here's an example from the second quarter of Super Bowl XXII (Broncos-Redskins) after the aforementioned 1987 season. The Broncos entered the quarter up 10-0 with the ball, and left down 35-10.
...
(full play by play of Bronco posessions in that 2nd qtr)
...
So, yes, the defense played terribly in this quarter. But Elway went 5-14 for 73 yards and 2 INTs. That's not the defense putting pressure on the QB, that's the QB putting pressure on the defense. The run game was working fine, the passing was incompetent.


My response:
Let's talk about what happened in this game in the 2nd qtr up to the first int. By the time this happened, Elway was 2-10 for 33 yards - not good by any stretch of the imagination. Digging a little deeper, these 8 in completions included two dropped passes (including a shovel pass on 3rd and 5) and two passes batted down at the LOS (source). Half of these completions can not be solely pinned on Elway. If you want to fault the QB for a dropped shovel pass, I don't know what else I can say.

On the other side of the coin, Doug Williams went 6-7 for 192 yards and 3 TD's. Plus, Timmy Smith had 3 carries for 78 yards and a TD.

So - before a single turnover was committed, the D had given up 28 points in 4:37 TOP. If this isn't the clearest case of all time of a D putting pressure on a QB, I don't know what would be.
...

When you can provide evidence that Elway had anything to do with the defense, I'll paypal you a dollar. Show me how he was calling the defensive plays. Show me where he was in the defensive huddle. Show me Elway missing a tackle. Anything.


I think this arguement is going nowhere, but this wasn't the first time we've had this discussion and I'm sure it won't be the last time. What I need is a scapegoat. I need to know who the loss can be blamed on. Lilly? Castille? Defensive coordinator - Phillips?

Here's another point this fellow made:
For example, the idea that Denver had a run-based system is false. Elway was in the top 5 in pass attempts four times in his first 10 years, including being #1 in 1985; from 1985-1991 he was in the top 10 every year except 1989. In that phase, he was top 5 in passing yardage only 3 times, top 3 only once, and wasn't top 5 in passing TDs at all.

Umm, my recollection of Reeves system went like this:
(qtr 1-3)1st down: Winder up the middle. 2nd down: shovel pass. 3rd down: swing pass to Willhite. 4th down: punt.
(qtr 4) dang it, Elway get in there and make something happen.

How do you recall it working back in the day?