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mtnbucman
01-31-2009, 04:11 PM
Sorry to take you back to what may be bad memories, but I was wondering if any of you could help clear up some confusion we're having as Bucs fans. As you probably know, Jim Bates was hired to take Kiffin's place, well actually it was Morris' for 2 weeks before he was promoted.

Was Bates scheme actually used in the regular season while he was there or did Slowik change it ? I know that the D had a hard time adjusting in the pre-season......was that because they had the wrong personnel or because the players didn't buy into Bates system ?

Reason I'm asking is the folks down in Tampa are trying to figure out if the existing DTs are going to work in his system or not. The line of thinking down there is that you need bigger DTs (325+). The Bucs have traditionally used undersized tackles in the 280-300lb range and most of the DTs on the roster don't have the skill set to penetrate as they only had about 2 or 3 sacks combined this season. They may re-sign Ryan Sims (315) and they just signed Dre Moore (310lbs) to a futures contract after being on the PS in '08.

IIRC, you guys had Adams, Kennedy, Gordon & McKinley in TC, Warren was traded to the Raiders and the Broncos drafted Marcus Thomas who was more of a one gap/ 3 technique guy (UT). Adams didn't seem to get much playing time same as Gordon. Was Gordon even used inside that year?

Anyway, seems Bates likes to funnel everything back to center and the DTs don't penetrate but are there to take away the run up the middle, yet the Broncos seemed to keep more DTs that were 300lbs and under that season.

Did they scrap Bates scheme and when was it that he got that "promotion" from d-coordinator to assistant head coach ? Did they still use his scheme with the smaller tackles ? What was the timing of these events ?

I know that's a lot of questions, but hopefully some of you can help out.

Thanks in advance everyone.

^mtn^

SonOfLe-loLang
01-31-2009, 04:16 PM
Gordon actually started for us that year and sucked. In fact, the entire ill-equipped defense sucked. Apparently it requires larger tackles to eat space inside, though none of us would know from watching Broncos games:) It was scrapped halfway through the season, if i recall correctly.

TheReverend
01-31-2009, 05:10 PM
He knows other defenses, but don't be surprised if you target some hogs in FA and the draft. He's a genius and if Raheem gives him the time, TB can continue it's tradition as a great defensive football team.

snowspot66
01-31-2009, 05:12 PM
Don't be surprised if you suck for a year or two though until the right guys are there.

Inkana7
01-31-2009, 05:39 PM
You guys will need to transition from your Cover-2 type D-Tackles to much bigger space eaters.

You'll pretty much suck huge balls until you do.

Killericon
01-31-2009, 05:41 PM
He had to use Sam Adams. Bates never got a fair shake here. Even a world class chef can't make a good meal out of crap.

mtnbucman
01-31-2009, 05:42 PM
Gordon actually started for us that year and sucked. In fact, the entire ill-equipped defense sucked. Apparently it requires larger tackles to eat space inside, though none of us would know from watching Broncos games:) It was scrapped halfway through the season, if i recall correctly.

That's part of why there's some confusion.

Wow, that's funny they scrapped it mid-season.

mtnbucman
01-31-2009, 05:45 PM
He knows other defenses, but don't be surprised if you target some hogs in FA and the draft. He's a genius and if Raheem gives him the time, TB can continue it's tradition as a great defensive football team.

Monte was a defensive genius as well, so it'll be nice to continue the 12 year trend.

Sounds like Jim likes to blitz more.

gyldenlove
01-31-2009, 05:45 PM
Bates runs 2-gap DTs which allows the defensive ends to line up in the 7-gap, they just have to play contain and are allowed to rush wide.

We tried to run that system, but our tackles weren't up to the task so our defensive ends had to help out inside which defeated the purpose of lining up wide. Bates is a really good DC if you have good players, but he is not the guy you want if you are lacking talent.

Inkana7
01-31-2009, 05:46 PM
That's part of why there's some confusion.

Wow, that's funny they scrapped it mid-season.

That's up for debate. Some say it was, some say it wasn't. The core Jim Bates defense was scrapped after the Bye, but he continued the defensive playcalling.

We sucked with it no matter what. Our D this year was statistically worse, but last year we just got killed by long drives, which is due to every team getting 6 yards a carry with ease.

TheReverend
01-31-2009, 05:48 PM
Monte was a defensive genius as well, so it'll be nice to continue the 12 year trend.

Sounds like Jim likes to blitz more.

Not particularly. You can take a look at Tennessee's defense and watch a Jim Bates blueprint in their base package.

mtnbucman
01-31-2009, 05:51 PM
You guys will need to transition from your Cover-2 type D-Tackles to much bigger space eaters.

You'll pretty much suck huge balls until you do.

Were teams blowing up your DTs ?

mtnbucman
01-31-2009, 06:00 PM
Bates runs 2-gap DTs which allows the defensive ends to line up in the 7-gap, they just have to play contain and are allowed to rush wide.

We tried to run that system, but our tackles weren't up to the task so our defensive ends had to help out inside which defeated the purpose of lining up wide. Bates is a really good DC if you have good players, but he is not the guy you want if you are lacking talent.

The Bucs have some decent DEs but yeah, that defeats the purpose of having pass rushing ends.

There is plenty of speed at the OLB position and if I understand his system correctly they're supposed to cut off the sidelines and redirect the runner towards the middle of the field.

Was this the season that DJ was having troubles ?

Inkana7
01-31-2009, 06:02 PM
Were teams blowing up your DTs ?

Let me put it this way. It was like watching 11 vs. 9 in the run game. If your DTs aren't up to the task, the your run D gets shredded.

Inkana7
01-31-2009, 06:03 PM
The Bucs have some decent DEs but yeah, that defeats the purpose of having pass rushing ends.

There is plenty of speed at the OLB position and if I understand his system correctly they're supposed to cut off the sidelines and redirect the runner towards the middle of the field.

Was this the season that DJ was having troubles ?

You guys are set at every position but DT. Your DTs go about 290, right? That's not going to cut it.

DJ struggled for the most part because he was moved to MLB. He had his moments where he played really well, but he looked lost a lot of the time. Ruud should have 150+ tackles in this system.

snowspot66
01-31-2009, 06:05 PM
The Bucs have some decent DEs but yeah, that defeats the purpose of having pass rushing ends.

There is plenty of speed at the OLB position and if I understand his system correctly they're supposed to cut off the sidelines and redirect the runner towards the middle of the field.

Was this the season that DJ was having troubles ?

He was in the middle that season.

mtnbucman
01-31-2009, 06:36 PM
You guys are set at every position but DT. Your DTs go about 290, right? That's not going to cut it.

DJ struggled for the most part because he was moved to MLB. He had his moments where he played really well, but he looked lost a lot of the time. Ruud should have 150+ tackles in this system.

That's what I hear, if ran correctly the MLB gets alot of action.

Yeah Hovan is about 300, Haye 285 and then for depth there's Sims 315 and Wilkerson 290 would jump in at UT on some passing downs.

But I've heard Bates plays bump and run, yet I also heard he doesn't leave guys out on an island either ? If they indeed play bump & run, Barber won't cut it and will probably have to come in only on nickel packages. Talib will be fine in man but P-Buc may not cut it either....he may not be re-signed.

Monte disguised alot as cover 2, but was playing more cover 3 as well as some 4 the last few years. He added different twists but they didn't play as much man to man and didn't blitz much. Not much cover 2 at all.

Even though the secondary was top 5 last two seasons, there wasn't much of a pass rush and the DBs were in coverage too long.

P-Buc & Barber got exposed this season. Barber had mixed results.......I guess that's what happens when you start to lose a step but your smarts can still get you some big plays.

Inkana7
01-31-2009, 06:40 PM
That's what I hear, if ran correctly the MLB gets alot of action.

Yeah Hovan is about 300, Haye 285 and then for depth there's Sims 315 and Wilkerson 290 would jump in at UT on some passing downs.

But I've heard Bates plays bump and run, yet I also heard he doesn't leave guys out on an island either ? If they indeed play bump & run, Barber won't cut it and will probably have to come in only on nickel packages. Talib will be fine in man but P-Buc may not cut it either....he may not be re-signed.

Monte disguised alot as cover 2, but was playing more cover 3 as well as some 4 the last few years. He added different twists but they didn't play as much man to man and didn't blitz much. Not much cover 2 at all.

Even though the secondary was top 5 last two seasons, there wasn't much of a pass rush and the DBs were in coverage too long.

P-Buc & Barber got exposed this season. Barber had mixed results.......I guess that's what happens when you start to lose a step but your smarts can still get you some big plays.
I wouldn't worry about your DBs. Bates does a good job stopping the pass. He used a lot of man with a good deal of Cover 2 looks as well. Having a Safety corps as good as Tampa's is a very good thing. Bates can turn Gaines Adams into a player.

Just be concerned about the center of your D.

mtnbucman
01-31-2009, 06:54 PM
Sounds good, but why did the Broncos let their big boys go ? Was Warren really that much of a locker room problem ? Or was part of because he pretty hefty contract ?

Inkana7
01-31-2009, 07:08 PM
Sounds good, but why did the Broncos let their big boys go ? Was Warren really that much of a locker room problem ? Or was part of because he pretty hefty contract ?

He didn't fit the system, I guess. Or he was lazy. I don't know. I just know I wish he were still here.

mtnbucman
01-31-2009, 08:16 PM
He didn't fit the system, I guess. Or he was lazy. I don't know. I just know I wish he were still here.

And to trade him within the division for peanuts ........I'm still trying to figure that one out.

Inkana7
01-31-2009, 08:20 PM
And to trade him within the division for peanuts ........I'm still trying to figure that one out.

We got a 5th rounder they got a bit player. I'd say we won.

Drek
02-01-2009, 01:16 AM
And to trade him within the division for peanuts ........I'm still trying to figure that one out.

It was pretty simple really. Gerard Warren thinks he's a modern day Warren Sapp. When Cleveland was switching to a 3-4 he wanted out because he didn't want to take up blockers. So he came here and basically played horribly inconsistent football. When Bates came in and wanted disciplined gap containment from his DTs Warren wasn't game and so he was sent packing.

The 5th was pretty solid compensation in my opinion, for a guy who rarely seems to give full effort and thinks he knows best how he should be used, not the coaching staff.

Bates was hired as an Asst. HC from day one here with Slowik as the DC. I think more than a few people have drawn the conclusion that Shanahan was quick with the trigger because he wanted his pal Slowik to be completely in charge of the defense. We ran something similar to Bates' standard D for basically the first half of the season, then some bastard child amalgamation of his system and whatever the hell you'd call the crap Slowik considers a "scheme" from there on out.

Basically, Bates showed up and didn't get immediate results. A lot of that is probably on Bates but the lack of opportunity given to him falls squarely at Shanahan's feet and the suck that has been our D the last few years lands pretty squarely on Slowik as well.

He could be a very good addition for the Bucs. But I also wouldn't expect him to come in and make wholesale changes to a defense that not only has been working for the last decade plus, but also the same defense that your new HC spent a lot of time coaching.

Something like cover 2 shells with Bates' DL schemes mixed in is more along the lines of what I'd expect. I think Raheem Morris is going to be a good coach in this league given a little time to get his feet wet, and he'll make the right calls to best utilize the talent on his defense.

BroncoMan4ever
02-01-2009, 01:52 AM
Bates runs 2-gap DTs which allows the defensive ends to line up in the 7-gap, they just have to play contain and are allowed to rush wide.

We tried to run that system, but our tackles weren't up to the task so our defensive ends had to help out inside which defeated the purpose of lining up wide. Bates is a really good DC if you have good players, but he is not the guy you want if you are lacking talent.

exactly, he will make talent look better, but if you are rebuilding a defense he isn't the guy you want. also, the Bucs current DT's aren't the big space eaters to clog up the middle and allow the DE's to rush wide. So it will not surprise me to see the Tampa D take a stap or 2 back while he gets his system and players in place.

mtnbucman
02-01-2009, 12:03 PM
Thanks everyone, appreciate all the input. Hope to hear more perspective.

Drek, the D has been working, or should I say it was working up until December when Hovan & Haye were injured. Haye really wasn't healthy all season and it showed in the stat colunm - 0 sacks, L/Y 6 sacks. But they were able to compensate thru the first 12 games of the season. They got killed on the ground by Carolina, San Diego & Oakland.
The D fell apart in an unusual fashion in the 4th quarter of those games.

The Bucs have no depth in the middle and even the starters are suspect. DTs are definitely at a premium these days.

elsid13
02-01-2009, 12:12 PM
If I was Buc fans I would be a little worried. You have a system that been extremely successful and spread through out the league. In Bates you have guy that has system that been installed in a number of places (MIA, GB and Denver) that was quickly dismantled in couple of years. As Crybaby Rivers stated that the reads aren't very difficult because it is very basic defense.

mtnbucman
02-01-2009, 12:45 PM
If I was Buc fans I would be a little worried. You have a system that been extremely successful and spread through out the league. In Bates you have guy that has system that been installed in a number of places (MIA, GB and Denver) that was quickly dismantled in couple of years. As Crybaby Rivers stated that the reads aren't very difficult because it is very basic defense.

The Tampa 2 has been used for 12 years now and even Barber said that it's time to try something new because the league has figured it out.

I have to say though, Monte did a great job of tweeking it over the years, but one of the problems is with many teams adopting the Tampa 2, it makes it harder to find the right players in the draft. It used to be easy to find small, fast LBs & zone corners. Even Ss could be picked up in rounds 4-7. The caveat was getting a good UT like Sapp.

mtnbucman
02-01-2009, 06:17 PM
exactly, he will make talent look better, but if you are rebuilding a defense he isn't the guy you want. also, the Bucs current DT's aren't the big space eaters to clog up the middle and allow the DE's to rush wide. So it will not surprise me to see the Tampa D take a stap or 2 back while he gets his system and players in place.

I sure hope they're not going to rebuild. Brooks & Barber are close as are Hovan & Carter. We're hoping he can work with what's in place and just try and add some talent at DT.

mtnbucman
02-02-2009, 08:47 AM
ttt

Kaylore
02-02-2009, 09:12 AM
Here's my take.

Bob Slowik was brought in to coach the secondary, which he did quite well, within the framework Larry Coyer's exceptional defense. Despite having little to work with up front (we had guys starting that are out of the league right now), the Broncos never enjoyed a better defense than they did under Coyer in the last decade.

After we lost the AFCCG in 2006 largely because Jake Plummer turned the ball over four times, Shanahan drafted Cutler to groom to replace him and maybe push Plummer to work harder the way Brees emerged after Rivers was drafted. Plummer went into the tank and Matt Lepsis our left tackle was lost for the season to a knee injury. The offense was horrible and the Defense was pretty much winning all our games for us that year. Plummer continued to worsen and when AL Wilson and other starters on defense were lost to injury the dam broke and we started getting killed.

Plummer was benched in favor of Cutler. Jay had a rough start but the offense did improve by four points a game with him and about 70 more yards. The last game of the year we missed the playoffs because of turnovers and allowing the Niners to drive down the field in overtime taking us out of the playoffs.

At the end of the season most people felt that we needed a better front four and a replacement for our decimated linebacking corps. A few thought Coyer needed to be fired (they were stupid for thinking so). Shanahan fired Coyer, promoted his friend Bob Slowik, and hired Jim Bates.

***My opinion***
I think during the time Slowik was here he was probably trying to get the players and upper coaching staff to turn on Coyer. I think he tried to manipulate what was going on to get Coyer fired so he could take over. I don't have any evidence but It's just what I suspect.

When Bates came he saw the horrible defensive line he had to work with and the task fell on Shanahan and Ted Sundquist to get some players that fit the Bates system. They started trying to trade for scrubs that couldn't play. We tried to trade with Miami for their defensive lineman and he never showed up to either team's headquarters. We traded for Jimmy Kennedy for a draft pick and he didn't even make it out of camp. A total waste.

Early in the year it became clear that we didn't have the defensive line to run Bates scheme. The result was one of the worst rushing defense's in recent memory for the Broncos. Teams ran at will against us. Mid-season they decided to change what they were doing to shore up the run-defense and presumably more of Slowik's scheme was utilized. The rush defense never improved, though we did have some good moments (like beating the Steelers on MNF).

At the end of the year Bates was let go in favor of Bob Slowik. Bates is a good coach who never had the front line to work with. He puts a premium on stopping third downs and stopping the pass but its at the expense of defending the run. Even his "good" defenses were somewhat weaker against the rush. In a passing league this isn't such a bad thing.

***More opinion***
I'm of the opinion that Bates was probably undermined by a poor defensive line and by Slowik the same way Coyer was, and his stint here was never given a chance to get off the ground. But that's just my opinion. I think you guys should have promoted Coyer but he's in Indy now. With some solid defensive tackles you should be able to execute his scheme effectively.

Cito Pelon
02-02-2009, 01:43 PM
Sorry to take you back to what may be bad memories, but I was wondering if any of you could help clear up some confusion we're having as Bucs fans. As you probably know, Jim Bates was hired to take Kiffin's place, well actually it was Morris' for 2 weeks before he was promoted.

Was Bates scheme actually used in the regular season while he was there or did Slowik change it ? I know that the D had a hard time adjusting in the pre-season......was that because they had the wrong personnel or because the players didn't buy into Bates system ?

Reason I'm asking is the folks down in Tampa are trying to figure out if the existing DTs are going to work in his system or not. The line of thinking down there is that you need bigger DTs (325+). The Bucs have traditionally used undersized tackles in the 280-300lb range and most of the DTs on the roster don't have the skill set to penetrate as they only had about 2 or 3 sacks combined this season. They may re-sign Ryan Sims (315) and they just signed Dre Moore (310lbs) to a futures contract after being on the PS in '08.

IIRC, you guys had Adams, Kennedy, Gordon & McKinley in TC, Warren was traded to the Raiders and the Broncos drafted Marcus Thomas who was more of a one gap/ 3 technique guy (UT). Adams didn't seem to get much playing time same as Gordon. Was Gordon even used inside that year?

Anyway, seems Bates likes to funnel everything back to center and the DTs don't penetrate but are there to take away the run up the middle, yet the Broncos seemed to keep more DTs that were 300lbs and under that season.

Did they scrap Bates scheme and when was it that he got that "promotion" from d-coordinator to assistant head coach ? Did they still use his scheme with the smaller tackles ? What was the timing of these events ?

I know that's a lot of questions, but hopefully some of you can help out.

Thanks in advance everyone.

^mtn^

IIRC, Bates' ideal D is exactly like you guys had in your SB year. If the guys you have now can fit that bill, he'll keep them.

OTOH, even if he can't find guys that fit that bill, he'll still run the same base D over and over and over. Which is probably why he's been out of the NFL for two out of the past three years.

Unless that old dog has learned some new tricks, which is possible I guess.

When he was here in Denver he tried to remake the D personnel and when that didn't work out he just kept trying to plug in new people that could make his system work instead of adjusting to the personnel he had to try to win games.

mtnbucman
02-02-2009, 11:29 PM
Here's my take.

Bob Slowik was brought in to coach the secondary, which he did quite well, within the framework Larry Coyer's exceptional defense. Despite having little to work with up front (we had guys starting that are out of the league right now), the Broncos never enjoyed a better defense than they did under Coyer in the last decade.

After we lost the AFCCG in 2006 largely because Jake Plummer turned the ball over four times, Shanahan drafted Cutler to groom to replace him and maybe push Plummer to work harder the way Brees emerged after Rivers was drafted. Plummer went into the tank and Matt Lepsis our left tackle was lost for the season to a knee injury. The offense was horrible and the Defense was pretty much winning all our games for us that year. Plummer continued to worsen and when AL Wilson and other starters on defense were lost to injury the dam broke and we started getting killed.

Plummer was benched in favor of Cutler. Jay had a rough start but the offense did improve by four points a game with him and about 70 more yards. The last game of the year we missed the playoffs because of turnovers and allowing the Niners to drive down the field in overtime taking us out of the playoffs.

At the end of the season most people felt that we needed a better front four and a replacement for our decimated linebacking corps. A few thought Coyer needed to be fired (they were stupid for thinking so). Shanahan fired Coyer, promoted his friend Bob Slowik, and hired Jim Bates.

***My opinion***
I think during the time Slowik was here he was probably trying to get the players and upper coaching staff to turn on Coyer. I think he tried to manipulate what was going on to get Coyer fired so he could take over. I don't have any evidence but It's just what I suspect.

When Bates came he saw the horrible defensive line he had to work with and the task fell on Shanahan and Ted Sundquist to get some players that fit the Bates system. They started trying to trade for scrubs that couldn't play. We tried to trade with Miami for their defensive lineman and he never showed up to either team's headquarters. We traded for Jimmy Kennedy for a draft pick and he didn't even make it out of camp. A total waste.

Early in the year it became clear that we didn't have the defensive line to run Bates scheme. The result was one of the worst rushing defense's in recent memory for the Broncos. Teams ran at will against us. Mid-season they decided to change what they were doing to shore up the run-defense and presumably more of Slowik's scheme was utilized. The rush defense never improved, though we did have some good moments (like beating the Steelers on MNF).

At the end of the year Bates was let go in favor of Bob Slowik. Bates is a good coach who never had the front line to work with. He puts a premium on stopping third downs and stopping the pass but its at the expense of defending the run. Even his "good" defenses were somewhat weaker against the rush. In a passing league this isn't such a bad thing.

***More opinion***
I'm of the opinion that Bates was probably undermined by a poor defensive line and by Slowik the same way Coyer was, and his stint here was never given a chance to get off the ground. But that's just my opinion. I think you guys should have promoted Coyer but he's in Indy now. With some solid defensive tackles you should be able to execute his scheme effectively.

Interesting take on Slowik.......first time I've heard that.

Interesting too about Coyer. They weren't too high on him down in Tampa, especially after Gruden was canned.

chrisp
02-03-2009, 05:52 AM
***My opinion***
I think during the time Slowik was here he was probably trying to get the players and upper coaching staff to turn on Coyer. I think he tried to manipulate what was going on to get Coyer fired so he could take over. I don't have any evidence but It's just what I suspect.

When Bates came he saw the horrible defensive line he had to work with and the task fell on Shanahan and Ted Sundquist to get some players that fit the Bates system. They started trying to trade for scrubs that couldn't play. We tried to trade with Miami for their defensive lineman and he never showed up to either team's headquarters. We traded for Jimmy Kennedy for a draft pick and he didn't even make it out of camp. A total waste.

Early in the year it became clear that we didn't have the defensive line to run Bates scheme. The result was one of the worst rushing defense's in recent memory for the Broncos. Teams ran at will against us. Mid-season they decided to change what they were doing to shore up the run-defense and presumably more of Slowik's scheme was utilized. The rush defense never improved, though we did have some good moments (like beating the Steelers on MNF).

At the end of the year Bates was let go in favor of Bob Slowik. Bates is a good coach who never had the front line to work with. He puts a premium on stopping third downs and stopping the pass but its at the expense of defending the run. Even his "good" defenses were somewhat weaker against the rush. In a passing league this isn't such a bad thing.

***More opinion***
I'm of the opinion that Bates was probably undermined by a poor defensive line and by Slowik the same way Coyer was, and his stint here was never given a chance to get off the ground. But that's just my opinion. I think you guys should have promoted Coyer but he's in Indy now. With some solid defensive tackles you should be able to execute his scheme effectively.

I agree that Coyer should never have been fired, but I think the decision had more to do with Shanny's admiration for Slowik (which predated his arrival I feel) and hair-trigger temperment than any machiavellian campaigning by Mr Slo.

basically I feel that Slowik was very much a 'scheme' guy who would devise nice complex and elaborate schemes but who wasn't necesarily a very good teacher, and wasn't too good at breaking it down so that his guys could understand the fundamentals - not a good teacher in other words.

Bates seemed in hindsight to be on a bit of a hiding to nothing - Shanny probably wanted to put Slowik in charge, but didn't feel he was a big enough 'name' to replace the admired Coyer, so he brought in bates as a figurehead. Bates wanted to run HIS defense though, and tried to do that, resulting in disaster when the front office failed to support him effectively in his quest for the players he needed.

Having said that, the kind of players that he needed are the kind that are hard to find, and the one thing I would criticise Bates for is for trying to fit the scheme to the players rather than the other way around.

We'll probably never know if he had another scheme to try or any kind of plan that might have turned the defence around - he wasn't given a fair chance, but he still tried to field a defense that he didn't have the players for. He HAS to take some responsibility for that, and these has to be question marks about how flexible he can be if he hasn' got the kind of players he needs.