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TheReverend
01-30-2009, 12:20 PM
I know this isn't a BB forum, but I know of at least a few people here that take working out seriously, so was wondering if anyone here has taken prohormones after plateauing in the gym.

Since the precursor cutdown took away my andro, I played with Methyl 1 Test, which was nice but quickly banned (I think?), Methyl 1 D XL which actually worked pretty damn well for just being a DHEA chemical, and Mass FX. Ordering some Havoc after reading some rave reviews.

Anyone else take PHs? Anyone more knowledgeable that can school us all up?

Ninjatime
01-30-2009, 12:22 PM
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1122/549238813_c6d24b0f45.jpg?v=0

TheReverend
01-30-2009, 12:32 PM
Solid addition. Thanks...

Smiling Assassin27
01-30-2009, 12:50 PM
Buying prohormones is banned in America, no? I was under the impression that prohormones WERE precursors. I guess there are some like Superdrol but I can't recall seeing any good reviews. You may have already seen this read:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/topicoftheweek14.htm

TheReverend
01-30-2009, 12:54 PM
Buying prohormones is banned in America, no? I was under the impression that prohormones WERE precursors. I guess there are some like Superdrol but I can't recall seeing any good reviews. You may have already seen this read:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/topicoftheweek14.htm

Naaaaaaaaaaa.

My understanding of it is they targeted the precursors that were just missing one of the steroid compounds but it would get added into your system when the chemical hit your liver.

Smiling Assassin27
01-30-2009, 01:02 PM
Naaaaaaaaaaa.

My understanding of it is they targeted the precursors that were just missing one of the steroid compounds but it would get added into your system when the chemical hit your liver.

The Devil's always in the details..:~ohyah!:

TheReverend
01-30-2009, 01:10 PM
The Devil's always in the details..:~ohyah!:

The funny thing is, the FDA's crack down on precursors has made them so difficult to find (hypothetically speaking) that it's easier to just get steroids (hypothetically speaking). Kinda defeats the purpose, no?

TheDave
01-30-2009, 11:40 PM
They are a waste of time Rev... way to many drawbacks. Most of them aromitize into estrogen just as easily as testosterone. Not real good for muscle growth.

Stick to a good protein/creatine/glutamine stack and you should get 90% of whatever a ph would of done... minus the bitchtits.

Finger Roll
02-05-2009, 07:06 PM
I cycled with 17hd. Which is some plant that improves testosteroine levels

Finger Roll
02-05-2009, 07:08 PM
trying using kettlebells. They helped me

TheReverend
02-19-2009, 08:40 AM
They are a waste of time Rev... way to many drawbacks. Most of them aromitize into estrogen just as easily as testosterone. Not real good for muscle growth.

Stick to a good protein/creatine/glutamine stack and you should get 90% of whatever a ph would of done... minus the b****boobies.

I'm 1.5 weeks into a 4 week 30/30/30/30 cycle of Havoc RPN. Gone up 10 lbs in that time period and over 20 lbs in every excercise.

Haven't experienced ANY negative side effects (hair loss, acne, gyno, etc), but I've been smart with liver protection, diet, dosing, etc.

We'll see how I finish over the next few weeks and if it all stays after my post cycle therapy.

Aside from the absurd strength gains, this stuff makes me feel 15 again, and I've completely worn out several girls, and I'll probably need a new keyboard at home Hilarious! Also, it brings a different... feeling to you. Not a high but more... alpha male? Hard to explain and that might just be a placebo effect.

I'll keep updated and am willing to post before/after pics if anyone thinks I'm bull****ting.

Malcontent
02-19-2009, 12:18 PM
I'm 1.5 weeks into a 4 week 30/30/30/30 cycle of Havoc RPN. Gone up 10 lbs in that time period and over 20 lbs in every excercise.

Haven't experienced ANY negative side effects (hair loss, acne, gyno, etc), but I've been smart with liver protection, diet, dosing, etc.

We'll see how I finish over the next few weeks and if it all stays after my post cycle therapy.

Aside from the absurd strength gains, this stuff makes me feel 15 again, and I've completely worn out several girls, and I'll probably need a new keyboard at home Hilarious! Also, it brings a different... feeling to you. Not a high but more... alpha male? Hard to explain and that might just be a placebo effect.

I'll keep updated and am willing to post before/after pics if anyone thinks I'm bull****ting.

New keyboard=Roid Rage?

skpac1001
02-19-2009, 12:22 PM
I'm 1.5 weeks into a 4 week 30/30/30/30 cycle of Havoc RPN. Gone up 10 lbs in that time period and over 20 lbs in every excercise.

Haven't experienced ANY negative side effects (hair loss, acne, gyno, etc), but I've been smart with liver protection, diet, dosing, etc.

We'll see how I finish over the next few weeks and if it all stays after my post cycle therapy.

Aside from the absurd strength gains, this stuff makes me feel 15 again, and I've completely worn out several girls, and I'll probably need a new keyboard at home Hilarious! Also, it brings a different... feeling to you. Not a high but more... alpha male? Hard to explain and that might just be a placebo effect.

I'll keep updated and am willing to post before/after pics if anyone thinks I'm bull****ting.

Crap. That would be good results for 1.5 weeks on Test. You have been working out for a while before using them, right? I may have to get in on this.

TheReverend
02-19-2009, 12:23 PM
New keyboard=Roid Rage?

No no, it's a sentence talking about how my sex drive is like I'm 15 again and I've worn out several girls.

Now using context clues... :thumbs:

TheReverend
02-19-2009, 12:27 PM
Crap. That would be good results for 1.5 weeks on Test. You have been working out for a while before using them, right? I may have to get in on this.

Yeah, I worked out for bulk for football from 15-20, and peaked at 192. No amount of diet could get me past my plateau.

In the Marine Corps, it's all overtraining for endurance so my weight slipped to 165-175, but I could pump out 42 pull ups (no kipping).

I got lazy for a year after that but got back into the gym hard a year and a half ago with my diet straight for optimal protein synthesis and caloric intake.

Might want to wait until I finish so I can give a comprehensive report on it, but so far everything's going great... and this is with bum knees that force me to sub leg presses for squats (the bread and butter of work outs).

skpac1001
02-19-2009, 12:35 PM
Yeah, I worked out for bulk for football from 15-20, and peaked at 192. No amount of diet could get me past my plateau.

In the Marine Corps, it's all overtraining for endurance so my weight slipped to 165-175, but I could pump out 42 pull ups (no kipping).

I got lazy for a year after that but got back into the gym hard a year and a half ago with my diet straight for optimal protein synthesis and caloric intake.

Might want to wait until I finish so I can give a comprehensive report on it, but so far everything's going great... and this is with bum knees that force me to sub leg presses for squats (the bread and butter of work outs).

Yes, please keep us updated as you go.

42 pull ups, no kipping. That is crazy. I was pretty damn happy hitting 20 while kipping the hell out of every one. Were you a rock climber or something? Most people don't bother training their back seriously.

TheReverend
02-19-2009, 01:00 PM
Yes, please keep us updated as you go.

42 pull ups, no kipping. That is crazy. I was pretty damn happy hitting 20 while kipping the hell out of every one. Were you a rock climber or something? Most people don't bother training their back seriously.

Haha, no **** and it was still a long ways off from the MCRD record. I think it was directly related from working out so long and hard and being strong for 190 and then dropping down to 160 at the time.

Edit: I do them underhand too. Supposed to be harder to sustain but much easier for me.

skpac1001
02-19-2009, 01:49 PM
Haha, no **** and it was still a long ways off from the MCRD record. I think it was directly related from working out so long and hard and being strong for 190 and then dropping down to 160 at the time.

Edit: I do them underhand too. Supposed to be harder to sustain but much easier for me.

Parris Island or San Diego? High pull-up counts at Parris Island are less impressive since your really just trying to stay away from the sand fleas.

TheReverend
02-19-2009, 02:40 PM
Parris Island or San Diego? High pull-up counts at Parris Island are less impressive since your really just trying to stay away from the sand fleas.

Hollywood 8')

HILife
02-19-2009, 03:04 PM
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1122/549238813_c6d24b0f45.jpg?v=0

LOL LOL LOL LOL

HILife
02-19-2009, 03:20 PM
I know this isn't a BB forum, but I know of at least a few people here that take working out seriously, so was wondering if anyone here has taken prohormones after plateauing in the gym.

Since the precursor cutdown took away my andro, I played with Methyl 1 Test, which was nice but quickly banned (I think?), Methyl 1 D XL which actually worked pretty damn well for just being a DHEA chemical, and Mass FX. Ordering some Havoc after reading some rave reviews.

Anyone else take PHs? Anyone more knowledgeable that can school us all up?

I've toyed with the idea of picking up somehting like that at GNC. I hear they really do some amazing things, but I'm really worried about the side effects which is why I never used them. I just stick to my protien shakes. I've taken Creatine before back in my senior year of high school with protien shakes and my numbers went up Alot in a few months. I think I went up 50lbs on my bench in like 3 months.

My squats and deadlifts made an even bigger jump. I think my final numbers before I stopped working out where 275 bench, 395 squats (had bad knees so couldn't do alot, but I was doing 10reps of 3 sets with atleast 630 on the leg press) and 495 deadlifts. I use to entry the high school power lifting compitations and did pretty well in my weight class at 196.

Unfortantly I got lazy after that and stopped working out and lost everything I gainned. several years later I'm back to working out only now I put alot of bad weight on. Hope to get back the strength I use to have and then go past that. If possible I would like to get a 350 bench, although I don't know if I have the genetics to get that high.

HILife
02-19-2009, 03:26 PM
I know this isn't a BB forum, but I know of at least a few people here that take working out seriously, so was wondering if anyone here has taken prohormones after plateauing in the gym.

Since the precursor cutdown took away my andro, I played with Methyl 1 Test, which was nice but quickly banned (I think?), Methyl 1 D XL which actually worked pretty damn well for just being a DHEA chemical, and Mass FX. Ordering some Havoc after reading some rave reviews.

Anyone else take PHs? Anyone more knowledgeable that can school us all up?

What kind of workout do you do? Do you have a certain nutrition plan you follow. I'm try adjust my plan, which is pretty much go to the gym, workout, take a protien shake, go home. Not the best plan.

TheReverend
02-19-2009, 04:20 PM
What kind of workout do you do? Do you have a certain nutrition plan you follow. I'm try adjust my plan, which is pretty much go to the gym, workout, take a protien shake, go home. Not the best plan.

I've tried the Ronnie Coleman, Rippetoe, and all the 6 day work outs, but what seems to have worked best for me over time is a pretty simple 3 day 5x5... though I've added more the past couple weeks because I'm not feeling overtrained at all from Havoc.

Monday:
Leg Press 5x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Straight bar curls 3x8
Chest flies 3x8

Wednesday:
Incline Bench 5x5
Lat Pull downs (underhand) 5x5
Leg Extensions and curls 3x8 (each)

Friday:
Deadlifts 1x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Straight bar curls 3x8
Chest flies 3x8

Diet:
Tuna Salad Breakfast Daily
Lunch 1 is usually a fatty meal along with high proteins and carbs
Lunch 2 is high protein and complex carbs 60-90 minutes pre workout
Immediately after work out is a whey protein shake
Dinner 1 High protein and high carb meal
Dinner 2 Usually seafood... and usually a few servings of shrimp coctail
Pre-sleep another whey protein shake

Also take multi-vitamins twice a day... probably piss most of it out, but it's pretty much become ritual.

I'd recommend hitting up this place:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com

Tons of people way more knowledgeable than me (professional nutritionists, body builders, power lifters, athletes, and some smokin hot fitness model girls) and nearly an infinite amount of resources on every topic.

HILife
02-20-2009, 05:48 PM
I've tried the Ronnie Coleman, Rippetoe, and all the 6 day work outs, but what seems to have worked best for me over time is a pretty simple 3 day 5x5... though I've added more the past couple weeks because I'm not feeling overtrained at all from Havoc.

Monday:
Leg Press 5x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Straight bar curls 3x8
Chest flies 3x8

Wednesday:
Incline Bench 5x5
Lat Pull downs (underhand) 5x5
Leg Extensions and curls 3x8 (each)

Friday:
Deadlifts 1x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Straight bar curls 3x8
Chest flies 3x8

Diet:
Tuna Salad Breakfast Daily
Lunch 1 is usually a fatty meal along with high proteins and carbs
Lunch 2 is high protein and complex carbs 60-90 minutes pre workout
Immediately after work out is a whey protein shake
Dinner 1 High protein and high carb meal
Dinner 2 Usually seafood... and usually a few servings of shrimp coctail
Pre-sleep another whey protein shake

Also take multi-vitamins twice a day... probably piss most of it out, but it's pretty much become ritual.

I'd recommend hitting up this place:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com

Tons of people way more knowledgeable than me (professional nutritionists, body builders, power lifters, athletes, and some smokin hot fitness model girls) and nearly an infinite amount of resources on every topic.

Thanks for the info and the site. I will check it out.

TheDave
02-20-2009, 07:01 PM
I'm 1.5 weeks into a 4 week 30/30/30/30 cycle of Havoc RPN. Gone up 10 lbs in that time period and over 20 lbs in every excercise.

Haven't experienced ANY negative side effects (hair loss, acne, gyno, etc), but I've been smart with liver protection, diet, dosing, etc.

We'll see how I finish over the next few weeks and if it all stays after my post cycle therapy.

Aside from the absurd strength gains, this stuff makes me feel 15 again, and I've completely worn out several girls, and I'll probably need a new keyboard at home Hilarious! Also, it brings a different... feeling to you. Not a high but more... alpha male? Hard to explain and that might just be a placebo effect.

I'll keep updated and am willing to post before/after pics if anyone thinks I'm bull****ting.

Glad to hear it is working for you... just don't come cryin' to me if you start lactating in the next few months. ;)

TheReverend
02-22-2009, 01:59 PM
Glad to hear it is working for you... just don't come cryin' to me if you start lactating in the next few months. ;)

Lol.

Btw, I'll be damned. I replied to your OP in this thread weeks ago, but I guess it never took. Summary of what I wrote "Smart with diet, liver protection and PCT, blah, blah, blah"

SureShot
02-22-2009, 03:55 PM
I've tried the Ronnie Coleman, Rippetoe, and all the 6 day work outs, but what seems to have worked best for me over time is a pretty simple 3 day 5x5... though I've added more the past couple weeks because I'm not feeling overtrained at all from Havoc.

Monday:
Leg Press 5x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Straight bar curls 3x8
Chest flies 3x8

Wednesday:
Incline Bench 5x5
Lat Pull downs (underhand) 5x5
Leg Extensions and curls 3x8 (each)

Friday:
Deadlifts 1x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Straight bar curls 3x8
Chest flies 3x8

Diet:
Tuna Salad Breakfast Daily
Lunch 1 is usually a fatty meal along with high proteins and carbs
Lunch 2 is high protein and complex carbs 60-90 minutes pre workout
Immediately after work out is a whey protein shake
Dinner 1 High protein and high carb meal
Dinner 2 Usually seafood... and usually a few servings of shrimp coctail
Pre-sleep another whey protein shake

Also take multi-vitamins twice a day... probably piss most of it out, but it's pretty much become ritual.

I'd recommend hitting up this place:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com

Tons of people way more knowledgeable than me (professional nutritionists, body builders, power lifters, athletes, and some smokin hot fitness model girls) and nearly an infinite amount of resources on every topic.

Any reason why you mix upper and lower body on the same day?

TheReverend
02-22-2009, 03:59 PM
Any reason why you mix upper and lower body on the same day?

I've read reports that you release a lot more testosterone and have better muscle growth if you trigger all your muscle groups in one day, unless you're a juicer, in which case, the six day, muscle group specific work out is superior.

Is it true? No clue. But I, personally, think I've had better results from doing it this way.

crazyhorse
02-22-2009, 05:12 PM
Worn out several girls?

Understand that any weight gain you see will be in some part due to all the bull**** you're retaining.

TheReverend
02-22-2009, 05:16 PM
Worn out several girls?

Understand that any weight gain you see will be in some part due to all the bull**** you're retaining.

You read the part that I was willing to post pics when done, right? And not like I have any alterior motives preventing me from posting and strength losses that may come when I'm on my PCT.

SureShot
02-22-2009, 05:22 PM
You read the part that I was willing to post pics when done, right? And not like I have any alterior motives preventing me from posting and strength losses that may come when I'm on my PCT.

I would rather see you post pics of the girls. The last thing we need is you and mr 007 having a pose off.!Booya!

TheReverend
02-22-2009, 05:45 PM
I would rather see you post pics of the girls. The last thing we need is you and mr 007 having a pose off.!Booya!

I tried that once.

TJ was not pleased.

skpac1001
02-22-2009, 06:54 PM
I've read reports that you release a lot more testosterone and have better muscle growth if you trigger all your muscle groups in one day, unless you're a juicer, in which case, the six day, muscle group specific work out is superior.

Is it true? No clue. But I, personally, think I've had better results from doing it this way.

I'm doing Rippetoe now (did westside before) and I am getting better results since stopping bodypart splits also. What made you switch from Rippetoe?

TheReverend
02-22-2009, 07:18 PM
I'm doing Rippetoe now (did westside before) and I am getting better results since stopping bodypart splits also. What made you switch from Rippetoe?

I love the 5x5 (think that's from Starr..?). Other than that, what I do pretty much IS Rippetoe's other than not rotating workout A and B all the time, and keeping deadlifts static for Fridays. Only other changes are a couple added isolation lifts and incline on wednesdays. It's been more effective for me personally, but I'd suggest sticking to his and making any fine tuning that might work better for you personally.

Liebs
02-22-2009, 08:16 PM
try m-drol or p-plex which are superdrol and phera phlex clones

TheDave
02-22-2009, 08:34 PM
try m-drol or p-plex which are superdrol and phera phlex clones

Jesus... you do realize that a straight dianabol / test cypionate stack would be less harmful to your liver than that ****.

Seriously folks this pro-hormone stuff is crap of the highest order. Do the leg work and find a Dr who will perscribe the real stuff if your really that far along in your training.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 04:38 AM
try m-drol or p-plex which are superdrol and phera phlex clones

Superdrol scares me, honestly. I've read way too many journals where people can barely make it to the gym from the lethargy and internal pain.

Have you cycled it? What was your experience?

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 04:39 AM
Jesus... you do realize that a straight dianabol / test cypionate stack would be less harmful to your liver than that ****.

Seriously folks this pro-hormone stuff is crap of the highest order. Do the leg work and find a Dr who will perscribe the real stuff if your really that far along in your training.

You caught the word "or", right? No sarcasm, just making sure you meant each individually was more harmful

TheDave
02-23-2009, 09:18 AM
You caught the word "or", right? No sarcasm, just making sure you meant each individually was more harmful

Absolutely... This new group of prohormones were nothing more than precursors to an extremely weak HIGHLY androgenic steroid. Excellent for adding water weight, growing mammaries, and beating the hell out of your liver.

If anyone is real serious about training there are SEVERAL safer more effective options to gaining muscle mass... and yes that includes prescription anabolics.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 09:40 AM
Absolutely... This new group of prohormones were nothing more than precursors to an extremely weak HIGHLY androgenic steroid. Excellent for adding water weight, growing mammaries, and beating the hell out of your liver.

If anyone is real serious about training there are SEVERAL safer more effective options to gaining muscle mass... and yes that includes prescription anabolics.

Hmmmm... I've read a LOT of really great things about superdrol's effectiveness, just too many extreme sides for me to consider using it.

TheDave
02-23-2009, 12:36 PM
Hmmmm... I've read a LOT of really great things about superdrol's effectiveness, just too many extreme sides for me to consider using it.

I'd be willing to bet you've read a lot of anecdotal evidence from different people on message boards...

Reason I'm saying that is that I've never seen any "Real" studies that show any real world lasting effects of them. Usually we see a slight increase in strength and weigh over placebo only to see it magically vanish about 10 days later. That's typical of highly androgenic steroids that pack massive amounts of water weight on an individual and then the body returns to stasis after the drugs half-life is surpassed.

The reason why a high androgen like dianabol works over these pro hormones is for a number of reasons. First you can take them significantly longer. 2nd they have a very high protein sparing side effect combined with an increase in your nitrogen balance. Finally most people take significantly more of dianabol as compared to any pro-hormone because of the side-effects.

Like i said earlier they are a waste of money... IMO

Liebs
02-23-2009, 12:48 PM
All I can tell you is that it (superdrol) works. You definetly need to have your support supps on point. Often people get bloodwork done after as well.
A more mild compound that also works (not as dramatic) is Havoc or epistane. Stack it with propadrol.

I suggest Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support, look it up.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 06:23 PM
All I can tell you is that it (superdrol) works. You definetly need to have your support supps on point. Often people get bloodwork done after as well.
A more mild compound that also works (not as dramatic) is Havoc or epistane. Stack it with propadrol.

I suggest Anabolic Innovations Cycle Support, look it up.

I'm over half-way through a 30/30/30/30 cycle of Havoc right now, actually.

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 06:26 PM
I'd be willing to bet you've read a lot of anecdotal evidence from different people on message boards...

Reason I'm saying that is that I've never seen any "Real" studies that show any real world lasting effects of them. Usually we see a slight increase in strength and weigh over placebo only to see it magically vanish about 10 days later. That's typical of highly androgenic steroids that pack massive amounts of water weight on an individual and then the body returns to stasis after the drugs half-life is surpassed.

The reason why a high androgen like dianabol works over these pro hormones is for a number of reasons. First you can take them significantly longer. 2nd they have a very high protein sparing side effect combined with an increase in your nitrogen balance. Finally most people take significantly more of dianabol as compared to any pro-hormone because of the side-effects.

Like i said earlier they are a waste of money... IMO

I understand exactly what you're saying. I personally had a lot of great experiences with precursors before they got banned, and am currently getting great strength gains off of Havoc which is mild compared to something like Superdrol that lieb suggested. The strength gains alone are enough to make me doubt it's water weight.

Regardless, as I've said, I'll be very open about any strength loss I'll experience after my cycles up, or any water weight I shed.

I do CERTAINLY agree that people need to be careful and educated about what they're taking, though.

rugbythug
02-23-2009, 06:31 PM
Why even use Pro-Hormones. They are more expensive and More dangerous than the real thing. You had better not be drinking any while using since your already taxing the crap out of your liver. Just do a straight test only cycle you will get better results and live longer. Plus it would be way cheaper. Trust me it is not worth it. I was on bodybuilding boards for 5 years before I came here. At one point I started keeping a tally of dead posters. After I actually wrote it down I stopped doing anything. Yeah I am fat and weak anymore, but I will see my kids grow up.

rugbythug
02-23-2009, 06:32 PM
I understand exactly what you're saying. I personally had a lot of great experiences with precursors before they got banned, and am currently getting great strength gains off of Havoc which is mild compared to something like Superdrol that lieb suggested. The strength gains alone are enough to make me doubt it's water weight.

Regardless, as I've said, I'll be very open about any strength loss I'll experience after my cycles up, or any water weight I shed.

I do CERTAINLY agree that people need to be careful and educated about what they're taking, though.

Water makes you strong

rugbythug
02-23-2009, 06:37 PM
Just for your knowledge I read a study using sled dogs they gave him as little as 5 mg stanalozal (SP) and noticed significant reduction in test levels. What this means to you. Even small amounts of Pro-Hormones can throw off your test levels, these will take longer to come back than they do to cut out. So make sure you are using something to bind with estrogen. Although when you do that you are really going to mess up your HDL/LDL levels. So be careful

Spider
02-23-2009, 06:39 PM
meh ....... you want muscle ? you want strength .. get a job working in the fields , bucking 90 pound hay bails for 12 hours a day 6 days a week , for 1 st , 2 nd , 3 rd , and some times 4 th cut will put some **** in you , digging post holes , shoveling feed bunks ....Silage season will work you into the ground , harvest ......it aint like lifting weights , I promise you that ........there is a difference in lifting weights and lifting counter weights for a john Deere tractor .......

rugbythug
02-23-2009, 06:41 PM
meh ....... you want muscle ? you want strength .. get a job working in the fields , bucking 90 pound hay bails for 12 hours a day 6 days a week , for 1 st , 2 nd , 3 rd , and some times 4 th cut will put some **** in you , digging post holes , shoveling feed bunks ....Silage season will work you into the ground , harvest ......it aint like lifting weights , I promise you that ........there is a difference in lifting weights and lifting counter weights for a john Deere tractor .......

Had one, they don't pay good. And while you get strong your beach muscles don't look as good.

Spider
02-23-2009, 07:02 PM
Had one, they don't pay good. And while you get strong your beach muscles don't look as good.

;D I dont think I look that bad for my age

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 07:45 PM
meh ....... you want muscle ? you want strength .. get a job working in the fields , bucking 90 pound hay bails for 12 hours a day 6 days a week , for 1 st , 2 nd , 3 rd , and some times 4 th cut will put some **** in you , digging post holes , shoveling feed bunks ....Silage season will work you into the ground , harvest ......it aint like lifting weights , I promise you that ........there is a difference in lifting weights and lifting counter weights for a john Deere tractor .......

Jesus Christ, please gtfo of this thread.

Spider
02-23-2009, 07:48 PM
Jesus Christ, please gtfo of this thread.

No need to call me jesus , though I am close

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 07:54 PM
Why even use Pro-Hormones. They are more expensive and More dangerous than the real thing. You had better not be drinking any while using since your already taxing the crap out of your liver. Just do a straight test only cycle you will get better results and live longer. Plus it would be way cheaper. Trust me it is not worth it. I was on bodybuilding boards for 5 years before I came here. At one point I started keeping a tally of dead posters. After I actually wrote it down I stopped doing anything. Yeah I am fat and weak anymore, but I will see my kids grow up.

I have to admit, I have a hard time believing that. You've also refrained from posting what they were cycling, and what their supps were. Comparing what ever might kill a person to a cycle of epi is probably a larger exaggeration than comparing a pond to the ocean...

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 07:55 PM
No need to call me jesus , though I am close

Spider, I asked nicely. I will beg if necessary.

TheDave
02-23-2009, 07:56 PM
I understand exactly what you're saying. I personally had a lot of great experiences with precursors before they got banned, and am currently getting great strength gains off of Havoc which is mild compared to something like Superdrol that lieb suggested. The strength gains alone are enough to make me doubt it's water weight.

Regardless, as I've said, I'll be very open about any strength loss I'll experience after my cycles up, or any water weight I shed.

I do CERTAINLY agree that people need to be careful and educated about what they're taking, though.

Boss if you want to keep using them, by all means do so. The fact that they help motivate you to get in the gym makes them worthwhile to a degree. As for the gains you feel every double blind placebo controlled study i've read says it is about 90% in your head. The fact is prohormones only raise serum test levels for extremely short periods of time, usually a couple of hours. Back when the germans first began experimenting with andro they made a nasal spray out of it to be used every 3 hours and/or imediately before their competition. Even with a significantly better dilivery system they found the results to be insignificant.

JMO but the real suplemnts that work for muscle gain are creatine / Glutamine / protien (whey & soy) / and there is some research behind the use of HMB & ZMA. Obviously this all depends on the rest of your diet being up to snuff.

But thats just my opinion...

Spider
02-23-2009, 07:57 PM
Spider, I asked nicely. I will beg if necessary.

Alright ..........but remember there is no substitute for hard Manual labor ....

TheReverend
02-23-2009, 08:02 PM
Boss if you want to keep using them, by all means do so. The fact that they help motivate you to get in the gym makes them worthwhile to a degree. As for the gains you feel every double blind placebo controlled study i've read says it is about 90% in your head. The fact is prohormones only raise serum test levels for extremely short periods of time, usually a couple of hours. Back when the germans first began experimenting with andro they made a nasal spray out of it to be used every 3 hours and/or imediately before their competition.

JMO but the real suplemnts that work for muscle gain are creatine / Glutamine / protien (whey & soy) / and there is some research behind the use of HMB & ZMA. Obviously this all depends on the rest of your diet being up to snuff.

But thats just my opinion...

Thanks for replying again. As you're well aware of by this point in our posting relationship, I have much love for your opinion. As I'm sure you're also well aware of, I DO love my opinion more than anyone else's.

The point of this thread wasn't just to advocate what I'm doing at the moment. It was precisely for responses like yours AND liebs. The more experiences or background information shared the better.

...and I WOULD be much more willing to believe it was some sort of placebo effect if it weren't to dramatic strength AND weight gain and noticeable body change after little over two weeks. Not only have I gotten over my bench plateau, I'm ****ing killin it right now.

I don't feel comfortable with stronger PH's, and I'm not willing to take legitimate steroids. Maybe it's some hypocrisy, but so be it.

Regardless, I WILL keep this thread updated and honest. One week and 5 days left, and then PCT.

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 08:08 PM
Boss if you want to keep using them, by all means do so. The fact that they help motivate you to get in the gym makes them worthwhile to a degree. As for the gains you feel every double blind placebo controlled study i've read says it is about 90% in your head. The fact is prohormones only raise serum test levels for extremely short periods of time, usually a couple of hours. Back when the germans first began experimenting with andro they made a nasal spray out of it to be used every 3 hours and/or imediately before their competition. Even with a significantly better dilivery system they found the results to be insignificant.

JMO but the real suplemnts that work for muscle gain are creatine / Glutamine / protien (whey & soy) / and there is some research behind the use of HMB & ZMA. Obviously this all depends on the rest of your diet being up to snuff.

But thats just my opinion...

the research is there for HMB, but for practicality purposes its not. youll spend a TON on the **** before seeing real results,the studies used something like 3g per day while most supplements of it have 1/3 that or less.

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 08:11 PM
anyways, im caught in a conundrum of trying to do olympic lifting, bodybuilding while still keeping my deadlift up. i need to decide whats best for me for looks, and more importantly for my internship. getting my degree in exercise science and im trying to do my internship at athletesperformance
http://www.athletesperformance.com

its going to be highly competitive, and i have the ability to do all 3 types of lifting but i cant decide which gives me the best advantage as far as being very proficient in, im thinking olympic lifting (which is very fun btw)

then its off to (hopefully) texas for grad school in sports science and nutrition :D

TheDave
02-23-2009, 08:14 PM
the research is there for HMB, but for practicality purposes its not. youll spend a TON on the **** before seeing real results,the studies used something like 3g per day while most supplements of it have 1/3 that or less.

Intersting, by any chance do you have any links to those studies? I had not paid attention to the dosage levels versus what typical supplements contained.

tsiguy96
02-23-2009, 08:21 PM
here ya go:

http://www.bodybuildingweb.net/blog/does-hmb-work/

whats interesting is eastern tennessee has possibly the greatest powerlifting researcher of all time, mike stone, so you know the study is legit.

TheReverend
02-24-2009, 07:17 AM
here ya go:

http://www.bodybuildingweb.net/blog/does-hmb-work/

whats interesting is eastern tennessee has possibly the greatest powerlifting researcher of all time, mike stone, so you know the study is legit.

Interesting side note:

Leucine is amazing at curing shingles. Somehow I got hit with that nasty ****er at the end of October.

TheReverend
02-24-2009, 07:35 AM
anyways, im caught in a conundrum of trying to do olympic lifting, bodybuilding while still keeping my deadlift up. i need to decide whats best for me for looks, and more importantly for my internship. getting my degree in exercise science and im trying to do my internship at athletesperformance
http://www.athletesperformance.com

its going to be highly competitive, and i have the ability to do all 3 types of lifting but i cant decide which gives me the best advantage as far as being very proficient in, im thinking olympic lifting (which is very fun btw)

then its off to (hopefully) texas for grad school in sports science and nutrition :D

Maybe you could just set up a rotation of 3 months each?

It will obviously mess up your gains, but it will probably give you a very solid foundation for your career path, or until you can specificy what precisely you want to be doing.

Just because this is curious to me, what's your body weight and bench? No need for a ORM, highest set by 5, 4, or 3 will do if that's the most accurate.

rugbythug
02-24-2009, 12:54 PM
I have to admit, I have a hard time believing that. You've also refrained from posting what they were cycling, and what their supps were. Comparing what ever might kill a person to a cycle of epi is probably a larger exaggeration than comparing a pond to the ocean...

I was into hard core bodybuilding. Most died of Heart attacks and Kidney Problems. A few odd ball cancers and then OD's on Rec Drugs.

I have no idea what they were on at any one time that is beside the point. Steroids do not kill you like Rec Drugs. -Other than DNP.

They kill you slowly. Imagine getting a brand new car, one day you decide you know what premium is nice but how much faster can I go with Jet Fuel. This is steroids.

Precursers are no safer. They are actually less so. At least I know what is in a vial of test-Unless you get it from Mexico. You have no idea what is actually in what you are taking. Nor what it does. If anyone did it would not be legal.

I have paid to consult with both Doggcrapp and skip. If you don't know who that is, than you are a noob.

TheReverend
02-24-2009, 01:30 PM
I was into hard core bodybuilding. Most died of Heart attacks and Kidney Problems. A few odd ball cancers and then OD's on Rec Drugs.

I have no idea what they were on at any one time that is beside the point. Steroids do not kill you like Rec Drugs. -Other than DNP.

They kill you slowly. Imagine getting a brand new car, one day you decide you know what premium is nice but how much faster can I go with Jet Fuel. This is steroids.

Precursers are no safer. They are actually less so. At least I know what is in a vial of test-Unless you get it from Mexico. You have no idea what is actually in what you are taking. Nor what it does. If anyone did it would not be legal.

I have paid to consult with both Doggcrapp and skip. If you don't know who that is, than you are a noob.

Agree on most of your accounts. Which is exactly why I expressed my confusion on why you took such a hardline stance on a cycle of epi. So my previous post stands. Address or don't, that's up to you.

rugbythug
02-24-2009, 02:32 PM
EPO I know- epi I do not know what that is. I think pro hormones are bad because.

1. They work -barely
2. The sides are as bad or worse than actual steroids. With out actually working.
3. They are unregulated and can put whatever they want in them. You know like Starcapps putting a Diuretic in there formula or putting in a little d-boll in the first batch to get a good review.
4. When you increase your androgen levels your negative feedback loop will kick in. This will lower your natural test levels to compensate. Unless you are increasing well over your normal levels and keeping it up for 60+ days you will not come out ahead.

TheReverend
02-24-2009, 04:11 PM
EPO I know- epi I do not know what that is. I think pro hormones are bad because.

1. They work -barely
2. The sides are as bad or worse than actual steroids. With out actually working.
3. They are unregulated and can put whatever they want in them. You know like Starcapps putting a Diuretic in there formula or putting in a little d-boll in the first batch to get a good review.
4. When you increase your androgen levels your negative feedback loop will kick in. This will lower your natural test levels to compensate. Unless you are increasing well over your normal levels and keeping it up for 60+ days you will not come out ahead.

I, once again, agree with the majority of your post. Point four IS what PCTs are for, though.

Regardless, here's a great thread for you to read if you are curious about epistane/havoc. 92 pages of science and anecdotal evidence. Some good, some bad, and an unbiased discussion on the whole.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1399921

I think we both can 110% agree that people shouldn't buy ANY drugs for bodily consumption without thoroughly researching it and knowing both the positive AND negative outcomes.

tsiguy96
02-24-2009, 04:42 PM
Maybe you could just set up a rotation of 3 months each?

It will obviously mess up your gains, but it will probably give you a very solid foundation for your career path, or until you can specificy what precisely you want to be doing.

Just because this is curious to me, what's your body weight and bench? No need for a ORM, highest set by 5, 4, or 3 will do if that's the most accurate.

i think im gonna continue with powerlifting with a bit of olympic lifting to keep form. getting big comes with getting strong - not so much the other way around.

my 1rm is about 295, bw 215. i suck at bench, went about 3 months without much of it because of only olympic lifting. trying to get up to 335 before the end of the year.

rugbythug
02-24-2009, 04:42 PM
I, once again, agree with the majority of your post. Point four IS what PCTs are for, though.

Regardless, here's a great thread for you to read if you are curious about epistane/havoc. 92 pages of science and anecdotal evidence. Some good, some bad, and an unbiased discussion on the whole.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=1399921

I think we both can 110% agree that people shouldn't buy ANY drugs for bodily consumption without thoroughly researching it and knowing both the positive AND negative outcomes.

2 years after the last of anything test levels are around 270. or the same as your avg 70 year old. multiple clomid runs

rugbythug
02-24-2009, 04:45 PM
i think im gonna continue with powerlifting with a bit of olympic lifting to keep form. getting big comes with getting strong - not so much the other way around.

my 1rm is about 295, bw 215. i suck at bench, went about 3 months without much of it because of only olympic lifting. trying to get up to 335 before the end of the year.

my best was 355.

TheDave
02-24-2009, 04:58 PM
ugh... I get the creeps even reading peoples max @ bench.

15 years ago i was benching 405 for sets of 3 (by far the strongest i ever was). Well, a couple of years later i was just going through my workout prepping a to do a set of 315 for 6-8... i got as far as 5 when I tore my pec. I can still remember that sound like it was yesterday.

imagine tearing a wet wash cloth in half... ehhhh

now pardon me while i go sit in a corner and think about my happy place.

TheReverend
02-24-2009, 05:00 PM
ugh... I get the creeps even reading peoples max @ bench.

15 years ago i was benching 405 for sets of 3 (by far the strongest i ever was). Well, a couple of years later i was just going through my workout prepping a to do a set of 315 for 6-8... i got as far as 5 when I tore my pec. I can still remember that sound like it was yesterday.

imagine tearing a wet wash cloth in half... ehhhh

now pardon me while i go sit in a corner and think about my happy place.

Jesus Christ... on every account.

TheDave
02-24-2009, 05:03 PM
Jesus Christ... on every account.

Yeah... sad thing is that freaked me out so bad i've never benched more than 225 since.

God i'm a puss ;D

TheReverend
02-24-2009, 05:18 PM
Yeah... sad thing is that freaked me out so bad i've never benched more than 225 since.

God i'm a puss ;D

Hopefully you're repping that at least 5 times or I'll have to agree despite your bad experience :)

TheDave
02-24-2009, 05:26 PM
Hopefully you're repping that at least 5 times or I'll have to agree despite your bad experience :)

Actually about 5 years ago i went to using only dumbbells (except squats)... Added a decent amount of bulk because of all the stabilizing muscles that are active during compoound movements. Haven't had an injury since

I'm not nearly as strong as I was but i've been able to maintain between 225-230 with a sub 15% bf. One of these days i'm going to put all this chem education to use and get up to 275... cut :thumbs:

TheReverend
02-24-2009, 06:19 PM
Actually about 5 years ago i went to using only dumbbells (except squats)... Added a decent amount of bulk because of all the stabilizing muscles that are active during compoound movements. Haven't had an injury since

I'm not nearly as strong as I was but i've been able to maintain between 225-230 with a sub 15% bf. One of these days i'm going to put all this chem education to use and get up to 275... cut :thumbs:

So I see you understand obsession

skpac1001
02-24-2009, 06:53 PM
2 years after the last of anything test levels are around 270. or the same as your avg 70 year old. multiple clomid runs

Damn. Is it inching back up at all or is that where its gonna stay?

rugbythug
02-24-2009, 09:21 PM
Damn. Is it inching back up at all or is that where its gonna stay?

Don't know, It may inch up but it will probably never be "normal". I could walk into a doc's office and get hormone therapy. But I never will, I have done an about face on that. Kind of like the lady in Row VS Wade.

TheReverend
02-26-2009, 06:57 AM
Okay, first real negative side effect to report.

Almost 3 weeks in, and I've got a case of the back pumps. I really gotta accept personally responsibility for this.

A. Didn't have Taurine in my cycle support
B. Wasn't drinking enough water
C. I'm a dipper, compounding problem B.

So, if you're considering using a good PH, learn from my mistake and drink water and be even smarter with your cycle supp because back pumps pretty much ruin your life for a few days.

Will keep updating

rugbythug
02-26-2009, 07:26 AM
Okay, first real negative side effect to report.

Almost 3 weeks in, and I've got a case of the back pumps. I really gotta accept personally responsibility for this.

A. Didn't have Taurine in my cycle support
B. Wasn't drinking enough water
C. I'm a dipper, compounding problem B.

So, if you're considering using a good PH, learn from my mistake and drink water and be even smarter with your cycle supp because back pumps pretty much ruin your life for a few days.

Will keep updating

Fina is killer for Back and Shin Pumps

TheReverend
02-26-2009, 07:56 AM
Fina is killer for Back and Shin Pumps

Figures that I do nothing just about EVERY day at work, and when this springs up I got **** to do all over.

Liebs
02-26-2009, 02:18 PM
To "TheDave"

There is no way in hell that some of these items are creating a placebo effect. Superdrol, (we will stick to this example) is in fact a designer steroid. There is nothing placebo like about it. If you work out for a few years, you natually reach a plateau of weight and strength ability. These supplements push you past that at an unreal rate. There is nothing placebo about putting on 20 lbs in 3 weeks while decreasing bodyfat and being able to lift amounts you never thought possible.

That's why these substances are banned in sports.

also, comparing supps like creatine and glutamine to a designer steroid is laughable.

Liebs
02-26-2009, 02:26 PM
Thanks for replying again. As you're well aware of by this point in our posting relationship, I have much love for your opinion. As I'm sure you're also well aware of, I DO love my opinion more than anyone else's.

The point of this thread wasn't just to advocate what I'm doing at the moment. It was precisely for responses like yours AND liebs. The more experiences or background information shared the better.

...and I WOULD be much more willing to believe it was some sort of placebo effect if it weren't to dramatic strength AND weight gain and noticeable body change after little over two weeks. Not only have I gotten over my bench plateau, I'm ****ing killin it right now.

I don't feel comfortable with stronger PH's, and I'm not willing to take legitimate steroids. Maybe it's some hypocrisy, but so be it.

Regardless, I WILL keep this thread updated and honest. One week and 5 days left, and then PCT.


Bro, we both know there is no placebo effect. I'll provide an example: On an occasion in the past I was benching 225x3, and it was a struggle. About 10 days on a certain product purchased straight from bodybuilding.com, I'm 13 lbs heavier and benching 225x12. Is my mind pushing this weight? Absolutely not.

All the supps TheDave has mentioned are solid, they're great in fact (except HMB that's garbage), but we both know there is no comparison when speaking exclusively about results.

TheDave
02-26-2009, 02:35 PM
To "TheDave"

There is no way in hell that some of these items are creating a placebo effect. Superdrol, (we will stick to this example) is in fact a designer steroid. There is nothing placebo like about it. If you work out for a few years, you natually reach a plateau of weight and strength ability. These supplements push you past that at an unreal rate. There is nothing placebo about putting on 20 lbs in 3 weeks while decreasing bodyfat and being able to lift amounts you never thought possible.

That's why these substances are banned in sports.

also, comparing supps like creatine and glutamine to a designer steroid is laughable.

Are you ****ing kidding me?

This "designer" steroid (known as 2a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-1)is a derivative of Drostanolone. Drostanolone by itself is crap. It's a dirivative of DHT and has little to know ability to convert to estrogen... unfortunately all that changes in it's conversion to "Superdrol". In this form it is nothing more than a heavyweight androgen and 95% of it is destroyed in the liver. Tell you what figure out a way to take it via the mucosal membrane for about 6 weeks and then i would be willing to place it at the bottom of the steroid list. Until then its COMPLETE crap.

As for your "20 lbs in three weeks" I could do that with creatine and sodium intake in 7-10 days... for about $10.

The only reason i get ****ty about these kind of things is because there are real chemicals out there with real research behind them that will pack on 10x the muscle with few if any of the consequences. Do the research, take a chem class or two, and find a Dr. that shares your opinion's... You will blow by your goals and live a lot longer.

Liebs
02-26-2009, 02:52 PM
Are you ****ing kidding me?

This "designer" steroid (known as 2a,17a-dimethyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-androstan-3-1)is a derivative of Drostanolone. Drostanolone by itself is crap. It's a dirivative of DHT and has little to know ability to convert to estrogen... unfortunately all that changes in it's conversion to "Superdrol". In this form it is nothing more than a heavyweight androgen and 95% of it is destroyed in the liver. Tell you what figure out a way to take it via the mucosal membrane for about 6 weeks and then i would be willing to place it at the bottom of the steroid list. Until then its COMPLETE crap.

As for your "20 lbs in three weeks" I could do that with creatine and sodium intake in 7-10 days... for about $10.

The only reason i get ****ty about these kind of things is because there are real chemicals out there with real research behind them that will pack on 10x the muscle with few if any of the consequences. Do the research, take a chem class or two, and find a Dr. that shares your opinion's... You will blow by your goals and live a lot longer.

I'm not going to get into a chemistry debate with you. That's not my field. You want to talk stats or programming, then I can act like an ass like you. I already have a master's so I'll pass on the chem classes. I'm not debating how the drug is used by the body, its composition, its chemical make up, et cetera. I'm saying it's not a placebo effect, that is all. Keep it friendly.

As for upping your sodium and taking creatine to gain 20 lbs in 3 weeks, we both know that's horse****, please....everything you said was respectable until that.

TheDave
02-26-2009, 03:24 PM
I'm not going to get into a chemistry debate with you. That's not my field. You want to talk stats or programming, then I can act like an ass like you. I already have a master's so I'll pass on the chem classes. I'm not debating how the drug is used by the body, its composition, its chemical make up, et cetera. I'm saying it's not a placebo effect, that is all. Keep it friendly.

As for upping your sodium and taking creatine to gain 20 lbs in 3 weeks, we both know that's horse****, please....everything you said was respectable until that.

I act like an ass because this is how people get hurt... You admittedly have no idea what you are talking about, but have no problem pushing a dangerous drug based on your "results". This **** you are boasting about is extremely dangerous to your liver and if someone is dumb enough to take more of it and/or stay on it too long they could easily do permanent damage. Sorry if that gets my haggles up...

As for your opinion on the "placebo effect". I've been involved in university studies where people getting injected with vegetable oil attained 30% of the results of people taking test cypionate... because they thought they were on juice.

Are your results 100% placebo... no, but every study i have read says they are at least 70% fake. For someone who is struggling with 225 you don't need chemicals to break through your plateau you need to learn more and train more... you are a LONG ways from needing "designer steroids" to take the next step.

TheDave
02-26-2009, 03:48 PM
As for upping your sodium and taking creatine to gain 20 lbs in 3 weeks, we both know that's horse****, please....everything you said was respectable until that.

http://www.musclebuildingreviews.com/articles/gain-25-pounds-week.html

Here's a little account of someone who did just that (since you won't believe my account)

How I Gained 25 Pounds in One Week

This is a story of how I personally went from 192 pounds to 217 pounds in bodyweight in only 7 days. Learn every little secret technique I used to accomplish this mind-blowing weight gain.

It started as a challenge to myself. If I took all the knowledge I had about weight gain and put it to work all at once, how much weight could I add to myself in one week? What would my upper limit be? I had some vacation time coming up where I could do nothing but eat, sleep and train so I decided to do it. This is my story...

I knew from the start that this weight gain certainly wouldn't be all muscle. In fact, it's impossible to gain that much weight in muscle in only one week (unless you're a baby elephant!). I was going to gain a combination of muscle, water and most likely some fat as well. That rapid of a weight gain, however, was going to force a lot of nutrients into my muscles quickly, resulting in some permanent muscle gains.

To start my maximal weight gain adventure, I first had to set myself up for it by dieting down. Why diet down to gain weight? Your body adapts most rapidly to extreme changes in environment. I knew I wanted to gain weight quickly, therefore I had to first subject myself to a restricted-calorie diet. When I would reverse my goals and begin to feed myself again, my body would react by rapidly sucking up every available calorie and holding onto it.

To further set myself up, the diet I went on was a two-week carbohydrate-restricted plan, much like the Atkins Diet. For two weeks, I ate less than 30 grams of carbs per day, sticking to meats, eggs, cheese and vegetables. This cleared out all the glycogen I had stored in my body as well as reducing the amount of water I was carrying (water attaches itself to carbs in your body - when you clear out the carbs, several pounds or more of water will be flushed out with it). It was kind of like squeezing out a sponge - you can fit more water into a sponge that's been squeezed totally dry than a sponge that's already moist.

It's important to note that I didn't restrict my water intake at all. That will give you exactly the wrong effect. If you restrict your water intake while dieting, your body will actually hold onto more water. If you give your body plenty of water, it will have no reason to hold onto every drop you give it and will flush it out regularly.

For training during this phase, I did three high-intensity cardio sessions per week for about 20 minutes each. This cardio was extremely tough and designed to burn as many calories as possible as quickly as possible. This would make my body extremely hungry for nutrients and ready to absorb as much as possible. I did high-volume, high-rep weight training (12 to 15 reps per set), 6 sessions per week with very short rest periods to further set up this effect.

After 2 weeks of this training and dieting, I was ready to start my weight gain. On Saturday evening, after my final training session for the week, I weighed in at 192 pounds.


On Sunday morning, I woke up and immediately took my first serving of creatine and glutamine. My focus on this day was to eat as much as possible, load up on creatine and glutamine and drink as much water as possible. Both of these supplements are excellent for forcing water into the muscles. Taking creatine alone can result in a 5 to 10 pound increase in weight over the loading phase of 5 days. To further maximize this effect, I had been off creatine for 3 months prior to this.

I took 4 servings of creatine and glutamine this day, along with eating as much as I could (for example, eggs, oatmeal, meats, potatoes, fruits, rice, etc.) and drinking buckets of water. I would continue loading creatine for the next 4 days, taking glutamine only after each workout from then on rather than with my creatine loading. I would start my weight training program on Monday. I was going to be doing a very demanding program, doing 12 total-body training sessions over the next 6 days.

My theory with doing multiple total-body training sessions is this: every single bodypart was going to get as much breakdown and stimulation as possible to maximize the amount of nutrients being taken up over my whole body. I would do more sets for the larger parts like chest, back and thighs and fewer sets for the other smaller parts. Every part would get worked twice a day for six days straight. This type of training is not appropriate for a long-term program as it would rapidly lead to overtraining in a matter of weeks. This was a one-week shot for me and I was putting everything into it.

After taking my creatine, I made breakfast, which consisted of 10 eggs and a bowl of oatmeal that would feed a family of 4. For flavor, I mixed in some fruit yogurt. To gain weight effectively, you really need to eat big.

I got to the gym for my first session that day and weighed myself. I had gained 10 pounds in the first day. Not a bad start! All that eating, drinking water and supplementation was paying off. My body was extremely primed for gaining.

My training session lasted about 45 minutes, during which I worked every bodypart. After the workout, I immediately took a mixture of whey protein (40 grams), creatine (5 grams), glutamine (10 grams) and Tang (sugary powdered drink mix) as well as some vitamins and minerals (multi-vitamin, calcium, magnesium, vitamin C, and an anti-oxidant). It's critical to provide your body with nutrients and raw materials to rebuild with as quickly as possible after training otherwise your body will just be breaking itself down.

I got home and set to work making lunch, which consisted of 2 large chicken breasts and a big bucket of spaghetti and meat sauce. Several hours later, I had a couple of cans of tuna, a sandwich and some ice cream. Please note, these meals are just samples of what I ate and not specifically what you should eat.

All during the day and evening, I was constantly drinking water. When I say constantly, I mean I got up every 10 to 15 minutes and drank a full glass of water over the course of the whole day. I was very well-hydrated, which is extremely important for weight gain. If your muscles don't have enough water, they simply can't grow.

My evening training session was also a total-body workout. At this point, my body was so flooded with carbs and water from having come off a low-carb diet, everything I did was giving my muscles an incredible pump. I was focusing on heavy weights for sets of 6 to 10 reps during my sessions and stretching out thoroughly after.

After the workout, I had another supplement and vitamin mix then went home. I had 4 eggs and a bowl of cereal for a post-workout meal, then a protein shake right before bed. I mixed up a protein shake and set it beside my bed so if, in the middle of the night, I woke up, I could drink a protein shake. This would provide extra calories and protein and reduce the amount of time I went without food during the night. And believe me, with the amount of water I was drinking during the day and during my training, waking up during the night was a given!

I repeated this type of schedule over the next days, continuing with my creatine loading, food loading and water loading. By the end of the second day, I had gained 15 pounds of bodyweight. By the end of the third day, I was up 18 pounds.

When I finished my creatine loading after the fifth day, I began taking a protein shake first thing in the morning instead. Taking protein immediately upon waking is the best way to start the day. It instantly reverses the catabolic state your body is in after fasting during sleep.

My training was going well and my body was sucking up everything I was putting into it. My strength gains were rapid and my fat gains were actually quite minimal. I was in the home stretch now. On Saturday afternoon, I went over to a friend's house and had a huge meal of Shepherd's Pie, which is basically a big pile of ground beef, potatoes and corn. Great weight gain food.

I went to the gym that night for my final training session of my weight gain week and tipped the scales at 217 pounds. In only one week, to give you an idea of the amazing strength and size gains I got, I was able to increase the amount of weight I could bench press for 8 reps by 30 pounds and I had added a full inch to my arms.

The best part is, this rapid weight gain was excellent for stretching the fascia of my muscles, giving them more room to grow (see link below for more information on fascia and stretching the fascia for increased muscle growth), leading to permanent gains in muscle size and potential muscle size.

Using all the knowledge and techniques (and appetite) for weight gain at my disposal, I had gained 25 pounds of bodyweight in only one week!

HILife
02-27-2009, 07:11 AM
Wow!! That is A LOT of food. I'd get sick after day 3 or 4.

skpac1001
02-27-2009, 07:54 AM
I can see this guys follow up article... "How I lost 25 lbs during my cutting week!"

zdoor
02-27-2009, 05:51 PM
Even with the best real stuff you're not putting on 25lbs in 3 weeks. You can add water weight but know way you're adding muscle at that rate....

And personally I think the risks of ph are not worth the gains. You may as well do a real cycle. The risks are the same.

That said if using the supplements helps you focus, stay consistent and make gains, it's worthwhile...

TheReverend
02-28-2009, 08:49 AM
Forgot to update this.

Ended the cycle 9 days early. The back pumps were pretty bad and had my daughter coming over full-time while her mother goes to Italy. Would've been the height of irresponsibility to keep going.

Anyways, the PCT is on, and I'll keep updated end results and any strength losses that might come when this works out of my system fully.

TheReverend
02-28-2009, 08:50 PM
Damn this is worse than I remembered.

Anyone got a better remedy other than chugging water, taking taurine, and eating bananas?

TheDave
03-01-2009, 10:09 PM
Damn this is worse than I remembered.

Anyone got a better remedy other than chugging water, taking taurine, and eating bananas?

If you think the problem is water based... try an over the counter diuretic. Additionally try alternating between heat and ice 15 minutes each session for as much as possible. The basic constriction and expansion that accompanies this might help quicken the process.

If it continues much longer you may want to have it checked out just to make sure that it isn't anything structural.

TheReverend
03-02-2009, 05:40 AM
If you think the problem is water based... try an over the counter diuretic. Additionally try alternating between heat and ice 15 minutes each session for as much as possible. The basic constriction and expansion that accompanies this might help quicken the process.

If it continues much longer you may want to have it checked out just to make sure that it isn't anything structural.

What's your take on what they are, to begin with?

I've read that they're:

A. Pumped lower back muscles, filled with so much water that they squeeze your kidneys.

B. Increased blood flow trying to force it's way to your kidneys causing the pain.

Never any definitive answers. Would a diuretic even help for either case? Never read about that for alleviation.

TheDave
03-03-2009, 10:21 AM
What's your take on what they are, to begin with?

I've read that they're:

A. Pumped lower back muscles, filled with so much water that they squeeze your kidneys.

B. Increased blood flow trying to force it's way to your kidneys causing the pain.

Never any definitive answers. Would a diuretic even help for either case? Never read about that for alleviation.

I've never gotten a clear definition of what the ailment actually is... but i wouldn't think it has anything to do with increased "blood flow" to the kidneys. On the other hand if it did have anything to do with an over inflated muscle due to H20 then a diuretic is the ticket.

TheReverend
03-06-2009, 07:48 AM
I've never gotten a clear definition of what the ailment actually is... but i wouldn't think it has anything to do with increased "blood flow" to the kidneys. On the other hand if it did have anything to do with an over inflated muscle due to H20 then a diuretic is the ticket.

Didn't try the diuretic. By the time you'd posted this, I was feeling worlds better. Regardless, those were the worst back pumps I've had to date.

Anyways, I'm one week into PCT and thought a quick update would be appropriate.

Weight: The initial 10 lb burst I gained, has tailed off, and I've shed 2 of it. I don't blame water weight, however. The back pumps really crippled my diet there for a week, so I've been forced to eat about half my normal volume and would attribute the mild weight loss to that rather draining.

Strength: Absolutely no strength loss. Back pumps have inhibited me from doing SLDLs, and my knees don't let me squat, but I can give bench stats.

I do a 60, 70, 80, 90, 100% 5x5 flat bench routine. Pre Havoc I would do 185, 205, 225, 235, 255 for my sets. A few weeks later and I do 205, 225, 245, 265, 275.

One bit of irritation is recovery time. My muscles were healing up fast enough to enable my 3 day full body routine. Now, I'm going to be forced to switch to a 4 day pushes/pulls splits. I also expect my diet to be a major culprit with this situation.

Sex Drive: Can't say yet. It's dropped off a cliff, but I've also had my daughter for the past week, so there's no time for girls or porn until her mother gets back from Italy.

Doing 2.5 more full weeks of PCT, and then starting my cut.

I, personally, loved this product. The back pumps were horrid, but pretty much self-inflicted. I may give it another go this summer considering I bought the **** bulk for when it gets banned.

TheReverend
03-20-2009, 06:37 PM
Bro, we both know there is no placebo effect. I'll provide an example: On an occasion in the past I was benching 225x3, and it was a struggle. About 10 days on a certain product purchased straight from bodybuilding.com, I'm 13 lbs heavier and benching 225x12. Is my mind pushing this weight? Absolutely not.

All the supps TheDave has mentioned are solid, they're great in fact (except HMB that's garbage), but we both know there is no comparison when speaking exclusively about results.

I never noticed this post. Sorry Liebs!

Considering you've cycled superdrol, you probably could've given me some solid direction on the worst back pumps I've ever had!

mr007
03-20-2009, 07:34 PM
Monday:
Leg Press 5x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Straight bar curls 3x8
Chest flies 3x8

Wednesday:
Incline Bench 5x5
Lat Pull downs (underhand) 5x5
Leg Extensions and curls 3x8 (each)

Friday:
Deadlifts 1x5
Flat Bench 5x5
Military Press 5x5
Seated Rows 5x5
Straight bar curls 3x8
Chest flies 3x8


Hey Rev, I really think this workout is a bit counter productive, especially considering a 3-day routine (not sure if you're still doing this).

The problem I see with this is you're likely under developing some of your muscle groups through overworking others. I do 3 days a week of weights but each muscle group is distinctly separated perfoming compound sets (Chest/Back, Bis/Tris/Calves, Shoulders/Legs) and that has given me the best results. If you're interested let me know and I'll PM ya a pretty sick routine.

TheReverend
03-20-2009, 07:46 PM
Hey Rev, I really think this workout is a bit counter productive, especially considering a 3-day routine (not sure if you're still doing this).

The problem I see with this is you're likely under developing some of your muscle groups through overworking others. I do 3 days a week of weights but each muscle group is distinctly separated perfoming compound sets (Chest/Back, Bis/Tris/Calves, Shoulders/Legs) and that has given me the best results. If you're interested let me know and I'll PM ya a pretty sick routine.

That was a modified version of my normal routine for my Havoc cycle when my testosterone levels were high enough to avoid concern of over-training on this program.

I'm starting a cut tomorrow (flying out some great pussy from California in 2 weeks that I want to be in perfect shape for), so not sure if I can give your routine a test run.

But regardless, PM it or post it up. Never hurts to look at the very least.

mr007
03-20-2009, 08:27 PM
That was a modified version of my normal routine for my Havoc cycle when my testosterone levels were high enough to avoid concern of over-training on this program.

I'm starting a cut tomorrow (flying out some great p***Y from California in 2 weeks that I want to be in perfect shape for), so not sure if I can give your routine a test run.

But regardless, PM it or post it up. Never hurts to look at the very least.

Posting it is just as good as others might want to see it too.

So here's my routine (obviously some variations to keep the body guessing):

Day1: Chest/Back - All exercises compound sets (compound set means one exercise immediately followed by the other if you don't know).

Flat bench (barbell or dumbbells) and Bent Over Rows:
4-6 reps, cut weight in half, until exhaustion x 3 (Bench drop weight, bench exhaust, rows drop weight, rows exhaust, no rest until next set - same for all)

Incline bench (barbell or dumbbells) and Lat Pulls:
Same as above

Flies (dumbbell, machine, cables) and seated rows:
6-8 reps for first set - rest same

Decline bench and upper back pulls or rows (machine):
12-15 reps compound, no dropping weight. 3rd set of decline bench do a burnout on the last rep (let it go down as slow as possible)

Day2 Bis/Tris/Calves:

Same concept as day 1 - Compound sets

Standing Curls and Close Grip Press:

5-7 reps on the heavier set.

Incline Bench Concentration Curls and Skull Crushers::

5-7 reps again, I do the skull crushers on an incline as flat bench crushers are really bad for your elbows.

Dumbbell curls and Extensions:

I do this against a standing tricep extension machine for back support. Same as above

Rope Curls and Extensions:

I'll use a cable crossover machine for these, put the cable to the bottom for the rope curls and put it about 2/3rds the way up for the extensions. On the extensions I'll pull the cable overhead and step out, bend over, and perform the extensions (awesome tri workout). Same reps as above.

Burnouts:

Take a 30 lb or so barbell and let it go down as slowly as possible (2 minutes ish). Throw it back up with your leg and repeat. For triceps take a 15lbish dumbbell and do as many standing high extensions as you can. Only 2 sets on the burnouts.

Calves:

I do seated and standing calves if your gym has the machines. 10-12 reps and half the weight on the standing. The seated 12-14 reps and 3 sets of each. On the 3rd set of the seated, strip all but 2 45 plates and burn.

Day3 Shoulders/Legs: I try to keep weight below my shoulders for legs since it's better for your back. I've also found it to be more challenging and rewarding.

Exercise ball wall squats, dumbbell front shoulder lifts:

For this I take an exercise ball, put it against the wall to support my back, and pick up dumbbells for squats. 8-10 reps, half it, same routine.

Seated Leg Curls, rear delts (machine or dumbbells with incline bench)

8-10 reps again same as above.

Leg extensions, dumbbell military press

Same as above

Dumbbell lunges, shoulder shrugs

For the lunges I'll take the heavier weight and put it on one side of the gym (far enough to get about 5 reps per leg) and go across, drop them, pick up the lighter weight and go the other direction. For shoulders 6-8 reps the first heavy set of shrugs, then the same routine.

ABS: - I do abs with every workout. Most of my ab workouts hanging upside down on a bar from a squat rack with weights and doing dragon flags from a workout ball (harder than a bench).


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TheReverend
03-21-2009, 05:14 AM
All exercises compound sets (compound set means one exercise immediately followed by the other if you don't know).


This quote and the following work out look very similar to volume training programs. Do you do pulse timing between sets that's fairly standard with Volume Training programs?

mr007
03-21-2009, 10:58 AM
This quote and the following work out look very similar to volume training programs. Do you do pulse timing between sets that's fairly standard with Volume Training programs?

I don't do any pulse timing. The volume training programs I know about advocate 20+ sets per muscle group and while you're dropping weight during the set, I consider the heavy and weight drop one set and more of a high intensity workout than volume training. I'm admittedly not an expert on the specific regimens, I just have my years of experience and trying many programs and going with what has worked best for my body.

TheReverend
03-21-2009, 11:02 AM
I don't do any pulse timing. The volume training programs I know about advocate 20+ sets per muscle group and while you're dropping weight during the set, I consider the heavy and weight drop one set and more of a high intensity workout than volume training. I'm admittedly not an expert on the specific regimens, I just have my years of experience and trying many programs and going with what has worked best for my body.

And that's what counts.

I've already bookmarked your workout, and cut and pasted it into a word document. After my cut I'll give it a few week trial, or when I get sick of my usual routine. Thanks again.

TheReverend
04-23-2009, 06:19 AM
Cut is all done, gearing up for another cycle of Havoc to start on Mondays. Hopefully some better preparation will prevent the back pumps from coming back.

Was going to start this week but considering the draft is this weekend, I'll be drinking and didn't want to accidentally kill myself.

worm
04-23-2009, 06:27 AM
Was going to start this week but considering the draft is this weekend, I'll be drinking and didn't want to accidentally kill myself.

Safety first! :thumbsup: Accidentally killing yourself would be a bad day.

BroncoBuff
04-24-2009, 01:00 AM
The funny thing is, the FDA's crack down on precursors has made them so difficult to find (hypothetically speaking) that it's easier to just get steroids (hypothetically speaking). Kinda defeats the purpose, no?

Sad part is that steroids are not really dangerous ... Armen Ketayin did a lengthy report on Gumbels' (or Costas's) HBO show a couple years back. It's all a fear thing ... just like marijuana.

Free society my ass.

I used to take androstendione, but it was banned. Creatine is pretty good though.

BroncoBuff
04-24-2009, 01:05 AM
Stick to a good protein/creatine/glutamine stack .


Details? I've been out of it for awhile, but I'm headed back in ... I buy protein powder and creatine powder, drink the shakes right after the workout.

But I do my cardio AFTER lifting, as it should be from all I've read. SHould I drink the shake BEFORE the bike/elliptical? I'm on oit 2-30 minutes, and I;ve read you have to drink the stuff right away after lifting.



PLUS ... I have an inflameed bursa sac in my right shoulder, supposedly (it was a quick informal diagnosis). The pain is kinda dull and feels like it's in the inside - deep in the middle of the shoulder socket. It does NOT get better with rest, and chest flys are the most painful process with it.

Any input?

TheReverend
04-24-2009, 06:40 AM
Details? I've been out of it for awhile, but I'm headed back in ... I buy protein powder and creatine powder, drink the shakes right after the workout.

But I do my cardio AFTER lifting, as it should be from all I've read. SHould I drink the shake BEFORE the bike/elliptical? I'm on oit 2-30 minutes, and I;ve read you have to drink the stuff right away after lifting.



PLUS ... I have an inflameed bursa sac in my right shoulder, supposedly (it was a quick informal diagnosis). The pain is kinda dull and feels like it's in the inside - deep in the middle of the shoulder socket. It does NOT get better with rest, and chest flys are the most painful process with it.

Any input?


You don't HAVE to drink it right after lifting, but it will provide better protein synthesis immediately after.

Broncoman13
05-22-2009, 05:37 AM
Rev, you still taking the Havoc? How are you doing with it now?

TheReverend
05-22-2009, 08:29 AM
Rev, you still taking the Havoc? How are you doing with it now?

Yup, I'm 3 weeks and 5 days into a 5 week cycle.

Couldn't say enough good things about this. In fact, I've even been able to add enough extra muscle to my quads and lower back that I've been able to start doing squats and deadlifts again.

Bob's your Information Minister
05-23-2009, 05:01 PM
If I ever want to form a genetically-modified superhero task force, I'm tabbing Reverend.

TheReverend
06-05-2009, 01:51 PM
Well I've been done with it for almost a week now and couldn't be happier.

I did a 5 week cycle dosing 30/30/40/40/50 (even though this is a mild supplement, do not try this dosing unless you've used hormones or steroids before and your liver support is in line and you can stop drinking for 5 weeks). Set new personal records in every lift and built enough muscle around injuries that I can do squats and deads again.

I've got a Caribbean cruise in mid July, so I'm cutting for the next month and a half. Bought "Yellow Bullet" (ephedra, caffeine, green tea mix) to make the process a little quicker... took it for first time this morning and got my ass kicked. Almost passed out multiple times at the gym... no wonder that **** got banned. Lol, learned my lesson and only taking it when I'm done with gym/cardio from here out.

TheReverend
06-05-2009, 01:54 PM
Disappointed that the lighting makes the vascularity and size worse than reality, but here's my end of cycle photo.

http://bodyspace.bodybuilding.com/img/user_images/growable/2009/05/30/20330732/profilepic/13vRTPBDBEExtQ86vA2UVIHUiVxv1413.jpeg

Goal is now to drop to 9% bf until end of summer.

mr007
06-05-2009, 03:33 PM
Lose the love handles!!

TheReverend
06-05-2009, 03:44 PM
Lose the love handles!!

:rofl:

I know, right? I did mention that I'm cutting now...

Broncoman13
06-06-2009, 08:24 AM
Love handles is what I have to get rid of!!! Other than that, just cut up a little bit. Thoughts/suggestions?

TheReverend
06-06-2009, 09:27 AM
Love handles is what I have to get rid of!!! Other than that, just cut up a little bit. Thoughts/suggestions?

10% workout/90% diet, imo

Avoid all processed foods, healthy fats (natty PB, eggs, olive oil, etc) try and only eat complex carbs in the AM, or right after workout, etc.

I'm 210 in that picture after 5 weeks of 6k-7k calories. In seven weeks I'll drop to 190 hoping for 15 lbs of fat lost, and only 5 of muscle... pretty realistic.

Everyone has a diff way, but I'll do it this way:

Avoid making too big a calorie deficit. I adjust my macros to 40% protein/40% carbs/20% fats, personally. Aiming for 1-2 lbs of fat loss a week helps preserve muscle, but I have to shoot for 2-3 because this bulk went too well to stop early.

Broncoman13
06-07-2009, 08:29 AM
You have a diet that you're following? Or are you just winging it with a "what you know" type of diet? Also, what did you decide to take post cycle?

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 12:21 PM
You have a diet that you're following? Or are you just winging it with a "what you know" type of diet? Also, what did you decide to take post cycle?

Just some OTR AI (over the counter estrogen blocker). My dosing was high so I got a SERM to keep on hand just in case problems arise. Also still taking my cycle support until it runs out.

Sample diet:

Wake up 4 eggs, whole wheat bread. One Yellow Bullet pill and multivitamin

Usually meatballs 96% lean meat (or equivalent Protein Meal), Veggies

Usually can of Tuna (or equivalent Protein Meal), Veggies

Post workout shake: 1 scoop Whey, 1/2 cup oats in water

Usually 8 oz of chicken (or equivalent Protein Meal)

1.5 scoop whey in water, sleep

Broncoman13
06-07-2009, 01:03 PM
Yellow Bullet keeping you up at night?

Any side affects from the PH?

TheReverend
06-07-2009, 01:18 PM
Yellow Bullet keeping you up at night?

No, but it might be different for you. I know a lot of people that take 2 a day, but I can be playing a Princess board game with my daughter and feel like I'm doing cardio, so I listen to my body and only use one for now.

Any side affects from the PH?

Only lethargy. No acne, no hair loss, no back pumps (avoid creatine on it), moods fine, libido normal some days stronger others.

TheReverend
06-16-2009, 06:11 PM
I've redone all my maxes this week so far.

Now, this is mid-cut. Anyone who's done bulks and then cuts (which should be a good chunk of people who've posted in this thread) should be well aware that you aren't at your strongest when you've transitioned from roughly 7k calories to 3.

However, I didn't think doing my maxes and recording them during my bulk was fair because technically havoc is a mild steroid.

Anyways, the results (paranoid about injury with 1RM so it's reps converted, will show):

Bench: 285 x 4 (1RM equivalent : 320)
Squats (New!): 295 x 6 (1RM equivalent : 332)
Deads (New!): 315 x 2 (1RM equivalent : 325)

Yes, I've gotten all the "You bench what you squat? You should walk on your hands!" jokes before. Nothing new will come of you re-telling them, thank you.

Btw, cut is going insanely fast. Should be at goal 2-3 weeks early.

TheReverend
06-16-2009, 06:13 PM
Oh, the point of me posting maxes was more to say how pleased I am with this product.

Also, I want to remind EVERYONE that it should only be used if you've plateaued naturally and have your diet nearly perfected, and have the discipline to quit drinking, take proper support supplements, and eat properly while on it.

I've gotten PMs from several people that are interested but simply aren't ready due to the above paragraph.

mr007
06-17-2009, 02:06 PM
Bench: 285 x 4 (1RM equivalent : 320)
Squats (New!): 295 x 6 (1RM equivalent : 332)


:spit:

Just kiddin man! Where do you get the 1RM equivalent from? I'm curious since I never really max out.

mr007
06-17-2009, 02:27 PM
Edit: Never mind, did a google search and figured it out. Pretty cool, never heard of that before... it seems pretty accurate.

BroncoBuff
06-17-2009, 03:34 PM
I don't do any pulse timing. The volume training programs I know about advocate 20+ sets per muscle group and while you're dropping weight during the set, I consider the heavy and weight drop one set and more of a high intensity workout than volume training. I'm admittedly not an expert on the specific regimens, I just have my years of experience and trying many programs and going with what has worked best for my body.
I thought you were supposed to INCREASE weights with each set of reps? ???

mr007
06-17-2009, 03:53 PM
I thought you were supposed to INCREASE weights with each set of reps? ???

That's not how I workout :strong:

TheReverend
06-17-2009, 03:56 PM
Edit: Never mind, did a google search and figured it out. Pretty cool, never heard of that before... it seems pretty accurate.

It seems to be inconsistent depending on what you use.

Register at bodybuilding.com and use theirs. I trust that the most.

TheReverend
06-17-2009, 04:09 PM
I thought you were supposed to INCREASE weights with each set of reps? ???

I think the purpose of that is to warm your muscles up with ramping weight to your work sets. I usually do a 5x5 that's 60, 70, 80, 90, 100%, and honestly the first two sets are a joke, the last three are the only ones I consider "work sets".

Regardless, mr007, to my knowledge, does more volume and much less rest. Also, how he does it effects different muscle fibers, and it'll ramp metabolism through the roof.