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View Full Version : DJ Williams has surgery to fix rotator cuff


HEAV
01-27-2009, 05:16 AM
Broncos linebacker D.J. Williams is wearing a sling after he underwent surgery to repair a torn rotator cuff in his right shoulder last week.

Williams, the Broncos' first-round draft pick in 2004, will be out four to six weeks before he begins his normal training and full rehabilitation. Williams' best overall season may have been his first, when he played his natural weakside linebacker position and finished third in the NFL defensive player of the year balloting.

But Williams was switched to strongside linebacker in 2005 and middle linebacker in 2007, and went back to the weak side in 2008. The Broncos gave him a six-year, $32 million contract extension before the 2008 season, and after a terrific start, he was bothered by knee and shoulder problems.
Williams may have to make another position adjustment for the 2009 season as the Broncos' new coaching staff phases in a 3-4 defensive system.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 06:12 AM
defensive ROOKIE of the year. not player.

WolfpackGuy
01-27-2009, 06:15 AM
Why wasn't this surgery done a month ago?

Borks147
01-27-2009, 06:38 AM
defensive ROOKIE of the year. not player.

hahaha yeah key distinction

I thought he had finished 2nd after Vilma, who was second?

Kaylore
01-27-2009, 06:39 AM
His fastball is going to suffer.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 07:12 AM
His fastball is going to suffer.

Completely agree. He doesn't need that arm to try and run around blockers.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 07:13 AM
hahaha yeah key distinction

I thought he had finished 2nd after Vilma, who was second?

Dunta Robinson, if memory serves me correctly. Which is might not, but some rookie corner or some ****.

Garcia Bronco
01-27-2009, 07:15 AM
I swaer he should have been left off the field with an injury like that. I hope he gets better and has a place on the team next season.

socalorado
01-27-2009, 07:25 AM
I swaer he should have been left off the field with an injury like that. I hope he gets better and has a place on the team next season.

I got a feeling that DJ will re-negotiate his contract so he can be traded.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 07:36 AM
I got a feeling that DJ will re-negotiate his contract so he can be traded.

I got a feeling after surgery and an injury riddled season his compensation will be minimal so he will be happy to play where Mike Nolan tells him to :)

socalorado
01-27-2009, 07:51 AM
I got a feeling after surgery and an injury riddled season his compensation will be minimal so he will be happy to play where Mike Nolan tells him to :)

:thumbsup:

cutthemdown
01-27-2009, 07:59 AM
In all honesty not even DJ is safe. His play hasn't been special.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 08:29 AM
In all honesty not even DJ is safe. His play hasn't been special.

Thats part of the reason why he's not worth trading at the moment.

Cito Pelon
01-27-2009, 09:13 AM
Maybe the new staff can coach DJ up some. He's not much of an impact guy so far. 75 games, 6.5 sacks, 2 INT's, 6 FF's, 4.7 solo tackles per game. Hopefully his production increases.

OBF1
01-27-2009, 09:24 AM
I am fine with DJ smoking pot everyday

montrose
01-27-2009, 09:26 AM
Maybe the new staff can coach DJ up some. He's not much of an impact guy so far. 75 games, 6.5 sacks, 2 INT's, 6 FF's, 4.7 solo tackles per game. Hopefully his production increases.

I just want him back to how he was playing at WLB this season before being injured when he was the best 4-3 WLB in football. 9.625 tackles per game and 2.5 sacks.

HEAV
01-27-2009, 09:46 AM
But a solid fatty in front of him and lets see what he can do.

TheDave
01-27-2009, 10:10 AM
In all honesty not even DJ is safe. His play hasn't been special.

When you are the worst Defense in the league and make a significant run at some all time futility records... No one is safe. Including champ.

montrose
01-27-2009, 10:20 AM
But a solid fatty in front of him and lets see what he can do.

Word. Ray Lewis can be even worse at dancing with blockers than DJ. That's why Baltimore puts a premium on keeping him unblocked.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 10:36 AM
Word. Ray Lewis can be even worse at dancing with blockers than DJ. That's why Baltimore puts a premium on keeping him unblocked.

Not even remotely accurate. Between Adams/Siragusa and Kelly/Ngata, Ray was still the best linebacker in the league and extremely physical. Putting DJ anywhere near his league is completely ridiculous.

montrose
01-27-2009, 11:19 AM
Not even remotely accurate. Between Adams/Siragusa and Kelly/Ngata, Ray was still the best linebacker in the league and extremely physical. Putting DJ anywhere near his league is completely ridiculous.

I never put DJ in Ray's "league" in terms of a linebacker. But as someone who has watched a majority of the games in Ray Lewis' career, he has always had issues dancing with blockers. Alan Faneca even made reference to it a few years ago. I believe the question was, "Is Ray Lewis the toughest LB to block in the league?" and Faneca's response was something to the effect of "Well we get together twice a year for the waltz." Ray did less of this early in his career but as he's gotten older, he doesn't take blockers head on as much as he used to. With that, the Ravens has always been very smart about making Ray's ability to avoid blockers a top priority. I'm not sure what you're referring to as "between Adams/Siragusa and Kelly/Ngata". Kelly Gregg took over at NT when the Ravens moved to a 3-4 in 2002 following the departures of Adams and Siragusa. I'd be very intrigued to see how DJ would play with a solid DL in front of him to keep blockers off.

supermanhr9
01-27-2009, 11:31 AM
My cousin sold a TV to dj's mom, he said she was hot!

Beantown Bronco
01-27-2009, 11:33 AM
My cousin sold a TV to dj's mom, he said she was hot!

She is. I met her in Cabo.

theAPAOps5
01-27-2009, 11:36 AM
DJ isn't going anywhere. Unless its part of a package to bring in someone great.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 11:40 AM
I never put DJ in Ray's "league" in terms of a linebacker. But as someone who has watched a majority of the games in Ray Lewis' career, he has always had issues dancing with blockers. Alan Faneca even made reference to it a few years ago. I believe the question was, "Is Ray Lewis the toughest LB to block in the league?" and Faneca's response was something to the effect of "Well we get together twice a year for the waltz." Ray did less of this early in his career but as he's gotten older, he doesn't take blockers head on as much as he used to. With that, the Ravens has always been very smart about making Ray's ability to avoid blockers a top priority. I'm not sure what you're referring to as "between Adams/Siragusa and Kelly/Ngata". Kelly Gregg took over at NT when the Ravens moved to a 3-4 in 2002 following the departures of Adams and Siragusa. I'd be very intrigued to see how DJ would play with a solid DL in front of him to keep blockers off.

People refer to fighting as dancing sometimes too. What Ray does hitting Faneca in the mouth, and what DJ does, trying to run around blockers or being obliterated by ****ing Dielman of all people, are hardly comparable on any scale.

And you'll notice Kelly and Ngata are paired together, I hope? Kelly alone isn't and wasn't enough to keep an interior player clean, which is why Ray lobbied for another hog the year before they drafted Haloti. Pre-Haloti, Ray was still an animal despite fighting through 1-2 blockers on nearly every snap.

Where's DJ playing with a solid DL? At the weakside where he rarely gets touched anyways? Or is he back inside where he'll have to learn to play in SOME traffic regardless of what's in front of him.

You can find the biggest DJ homers on the board and all will admit he's no Al Wilson, and as much as I love, he also was no Ray Lewis.

socalorado
01-27-2009, 11:51 AM
People refer to fighting as dancing sometimes too. What Ray does hitting Faneca in the mouth, and what DJ does, trying to run around blockers or being obliterated by ****ing Dielman of all people, are hardly comparable on any scale.

And you'll notice Kelly and Ngata are paired together, I hope? Kelly alone isn't and wasn't enough to keep an interior player clean, which is why Ray lobbied for another hog the year before they drafted Haloti. Pre-Haloti, Ray was still an animal despite fighting through 1-2 blockers on nearly every snap.

Where's DJ playing with a solid DL? At the weakside where he rarely gets touched anyways? Or is he back inside where he'll have to learn to play in SOME traffic regardless of what's in front of him.

You can find the biggest DJ homers on the board and all will admit he's no Al Wilson, and as much as I love, he also was no Ray Lewis.


I just dont think DJ will be able to play ILB in the 3-4. Not only do you make good points, but he just isnt a thumper, looking for the contact when its needed. Ray has the ability to destroy opposing players whatever the situation, in a very short/small space, with little time to accelerate into the tackle. The only player that DEN has that can do this IMHO, is Larsen of all players. He needs little or no room to make a tackle and throttle someone. Rarely did he go backwards when making a play. Hes the best fit inside, and he is/was a rookie! What a pick! I'll say it right now, Larsen starts next year inside. Also, i watched Larsen take on and smack o-linemen during a game, then go and play FB with the offense.

montrose
01-27-2009, 11:54 AM
People refer to fighting as dancing sometimes too. What Ray does hitting Faneca in the mouth, and what DJ does, trying to run around blockers or being obliterated by ****ing Dielman of all people, are hardly comparable on any scale.

Complete over exaggeration. Ray Lewis doesn't, nor has he ever, "hit Faneca in the mouth". Also, all LBs are blown up by guys - it's the NFL. Ray Lewis has been pancaked and obliterated by OL and FBs far less accomplished than Dielman. Again, I'm not comparing Lewis to Williams in their abilities as a LB - the Broncos porous coaching staff prohibited me from ever making that comparison. However, making Williams out to be one who tippytoes around any blocker coming his way with a skirt on and Lewis out to be a wrecking ball looking to blow up OL every play is a completely over exaggeration.

And you'll notice Kelly and Ngata are paired together, I hope? Kelly alone isn't and wasn't enough to keep an interior player clean, which is why Ray lobbied for another hog the year before they drafted Haloti. Pre-Haloti, Ray was still an animal despite fighting through 1-2 blockers on nearly every snap.

Completely untrue. Gregg, Douglas and Weaver were very sound at occupying blockers for Lewis. In addition, Nolan's scheme was such that it allowed Lewis to make plays over the top with angles instead of taking guys head on. This was a big deal in Baltimore at the time as people were worrying that Lewis was going to wear down and he himself said that the new scheme was adding years to his career. The statement that he was fighting through 1-2 blockers on every play couldn't be more of a fabrication.

Where's DJ playing with a solid DL? At the weakside where he rarely gets touched anyways? Or is he back inside where he'll have to learn to play in SOME traffic regardless of what's in front of him.

At the same 3-4 WILB position under Nolan that Lewis played and I (along with a few other credible posters here on the Mane) have learned that the new coaching staff is excited to give him the opportunity to play. If we're playing a 4-3, it's a moot point anyhow as DJ was playing the position at an extremely high level prior to his injury anyhow. He'll obviously learn to be fighting through traffic - although I think you'll see his biggest improvement in pass coverage as Nolan's scheme is designed for it (I believe Lewis had 6 or 7 INT's) and Martindale has a track record of it as well. I'm confident that with a healthy shoulder and knee, better DL and improved coaching -DJ will be a very effective player next season.

You can find the biggest DJ homers on the board and all will admit he's no Al Wilson, and as much as I love, he also was no Ray Lewis.

He is no Al Wilson or Ray Lewis, this is true. He's not nearly the leader and not that type of player. This whole conversation began by me taking Lewis (the best LB of our era) and demonstrating that he has had difficulty dancing with blockers at times and that DJ can have a fine career with that as a weakness. Somehow this spun into a Lewis vs. Williams debate which it was never meant to be. They play different positions and are on different levels.

With that, I don't believe Williams gets the credit for as well as he played back at WLB this season prior to his injury playing with sub-par talent and a sub-sub par scheme after spending previous seasons being bounced around to different positions under poor coaches. Time will tell how he plays in this new scheme but I'm personally confident he will play very well.

socalorado
01-27-2009, 12:02 PM
Complete over exaggeration. Ray Lewis doesn't, nor has he ever, "hit Faneca in the mouth". Also, all LBs are blown up by guys - it's the NFL. Ray Lewis has been pancaked and obliterated by OL and FBs far less accomplished than Dielman. Again, I'm not comparing Lewis to Williams in their abilities as a LB - the Broncos porous coaching staff prohibited me from ever making that comparison. However, making Williams out to be one who tippytoes around any blocker coming his way with a skirt on and Lewis out to be a wrecking ball looking to blow up OL every play is a completely over exaggeration.



Completely untrue. Gregg, Douglas and Weaver were very sound at occupying blockers for Lewis. In addition, Nolan's scheme was such that it allowed Lewis to make plays over the top with angles instead of taking guys head on. This was a big deal in Baltimore at the time as people were worrying that Lewis was going to wear down and he himself said that the new scheme was adding years to his career. The statement that he was fighting through 1-2 blockers on every play couldn't be more of a fabrication.



At the same 3-4 WILB position under Nolan that Lewis played and I (along with a few other credible posters here on the Mane) have learned that the new coaching staff is excited to give him the opportunity to play. If we're playing a 4-3, it's a moot point anyhow as DJ was playing the position at an extremely high level prior to his injury anyhow. He'll obviously learn to be fighting through traffic - although I think you'll see his biggest improvement in pass coverage as Nolan's scheme is designed for it (I believe Lewis had 6 or 7 INT's) and Martindale has a track record of it as well. I'm confident that with a healthy shoulder and knee, better DL and improved coaching -DJ will be a very effective player next season.



He is no Al Wilson or Ray Lewis, this is true. He's not nearly the leader and not that type of player. This whole conversation began by me taking Lewis (the best LB of our era) and demonstrating that he has had difficulty dancing with blockers at times and that DJ can have a fine career with that as a weakness. Somehow this spun into a Lewis vs. Williams debate which it was never meant to be. They play different positions and are on different levels.

With that, I don't believe Williams gets the credit for as well as he played back at WLB this season prior to his injury playing with sub-par talent and a sub-sub par scheme after spending previous seasons being bounced around to different positions under poor coaches. Time will tell how he plays in this new scheme but I'm personally confident he will play very well.

Did NOLAN say he was excited to have DJ, or did McD say that?
Also, didnt he say he was excited to have WWIII as well?

NUB
01-27-2009, 12:02 PM
DJ was playing lights out at the start. I think he was even leading the league in tackles... But this injury has all the signs of what happened to Al Wilson and his sudden inability to wrap up anybody because his arms became so stocky and rigid at the shoulders.

montrose
01-27-2009, 12:14 PM
Did NOLAN say he was excited to have DJ, or did McD say that?
Also, didnt he say he was excited to have WWIII as well?

My understanding was that Josh and Nolan were very excited about DJ, Woodyard and Larsen. I've heard that from 3 really trusted sources (2 of them mentioned DJ and Woodyard, the other also mentioned Larsen).

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 12:23 PM
Complete over exaggeration. Ray Lewis doesn't, nor has he ever, "hit Faneca in the mouth". Also, all LBs are blown up by guys - it's the NFL. Ray Lewis has been pancaked and obliterated by OL and FBs far less accomplished than Dielman. Again, I'm not comparing Lewis to Williams in their abilities as a LB - the Broncos porous coaching staff prohibited me from ever making that comparison. However, making Williams out to be one who tippytoes around any blocker coming his way with a skirt on and Lewis out to be a wrecking ball looking to blow up OL every play is a completely over exaggeration.

One is a lock Hall of Famer, and one couldn't even crack the nickle package versus Ian Gold in his second and third years. It's not the coaching staff prohibiting you from making that comparison, it's the players inability to make a decisive play.

Completely untrue. Gregg, Douglas and Weaver were very sound at occupying blockers for Lewis. In addition, Nolan's scheme was such that it allowed Lewis to make plays over the top with angles instead of taking guys head on. This was a big deal in Baltimore at the time as people were worrying that Lewis was going to wear down and he himself said that the new scheme was adding years to his career. The statement that he was fighting through 1-2 blockers on every play couldn't be more of a fabrication.

That's why they were so excited to keep blockers off him by moving to a 4-6 in 2005?

www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/ravens/2005-06-26-lewis-46-defense_x.htm

"Playing last season in the 3-4 alignment of defensive coordinator Mike Nolan, who left to become head coach of the San Francisco 49ers, Lewis led the Ravens with 200 tackles and was selected to play in the Pro Bowl for a seventh time. But his effectiveness was dependent upon his ability to battle through the isolation blocks of opposing linemen. "

Allow me to clarify because you obviously missed something in your end-all be-all "following the Ravens"... 200 tackles battling through ISOs. You understand that right?

And more backup to my Ray fighting through blockers comment and lobbying for Ngata:

"Speaking to Comcast SportsNet in April, Lewis seemingly addressed what the Ravens needed in the upcoming draft by stating, "The question is, 'Are you going to let me do what I do? If not, then let me go.'" The Ravens drafted 340-pound defensive tackle Haloti Ngata in the first round to free up Lewis to make tackles, much in the way Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa did in the team's Super Bowl season. "

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/ravens/2006-06-07-lewis-comments_x.htm

At the same 3-4 WILB position under Nolan that Lewis played and I (along with a few other credible posters here on the Mane) have learned that the new coaching staff is excited to give him the opportunity to play. If we're playing a 4-3, it's a moot point anyhow as DJ was playing the position at an extremely high level prior to his injury anyhow. He'll obviously learn to be fighting through traffic - although I think you'll see his biggest improvement in pass coverage as Nolan's scheme is designed for it (I believe Lewis had 6 or 7 INT's) and Martindale has a track record of it as well. I'm confident that with a healthy shoulder and knee, better DL and improved coaching -DJ will be a very effective player next season.

Like socalorado already pointed out, he's already said he was excited about Woodyard, and NOT committed to a system. You're making assumptions on where you want him to play DJ.

Also, I thought he'd learn to fight through traffic when he played MLB too. Alas I was dead wrong, AND the mentality change that I'd also hoped for didn't arrive when he moved back outside.

He is no Al Wilson or Ray Lewis, this is true. He's not nearly the leader and not that type of player. This whole conversation began by me taking Lewis (the best LB of our era) and demonstrating that he has had difficulty dancing with blockers at times and that DJ can have a fine career with that as a weakness. Somehow this spun into a Lewis vs. Williams debate which it was never meant to be. They play different positions and are on different levels.

With that, I don't believe Williams gets the credit for as well as he played back at WLB this season prior to his injury playing with sub-par talent and a sub-sub par scheme after spending previous seasons being bounced around to different positions under poor coaches. Time will tell how he plays in this new scheme but I'm personally confident he will play very well.

If Williams wants the credit. Either make a ****ing play, or be a consistent factor. He's not some rookie. He needs to earn some modicum of respect. Wesley in a handful of games has done more for that vote of confidence.



Are you sure you followed the Ravens?

Bronx33
01-27-2009, 12:25 PM
defensive ROOKIE of the year. not player.


Exactly what i was thinking.

Bronx33
01-27-2009, 12:27 PM
In all honesty not even DJ is safe. His play hasn't been special.


It was pretty dang good until he got hurt.

montrose
01-27-2009, 12:40 PM
One is a lock Hall of Famer, and one couldn't even crack the nickle package versus Ian Gold in his second and third years. It's not the coaching staff prohibiting you from making that comparison, it's the players inability to make a decisive play.

I'm not sure how many times I need to keep retyping that I'm not trying to compare Lewis and Williams although you keep trying to go back to that argument. As far as not cracking the nickel package over Gold, I know you're not using our organization as a barometer for who is playing well because this is the same staff that elected to put an injured Williams on the field over the beloved Wesley Woodyard.

That's why they were so excited to keep blockers off him by moving to a 4-6 in 2005?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...-defense_x.htm

"Playing last season in the 3-4 alignment of defensive coordinator Mike Nolan, who left to become head coach of the San Francisco 49ers, Lewis led the Ravens with 200 tackles and was selected to play in the Pro Bowl for a seventh time. But his effectiveness was dependent upon his ability to battle through the isolation blocks of opposing linemen. "

Allow me to clarify because you obviously missed something in your end-all be-all "following the Ravens"... 200 tackles battling through ISOs. You understand that right?

And more backup to my Ray fighting through blockers comment and lobbying for Ngata:

"Speaking to Comcast SportsNet in April, Lewis seemingly addressed what the Ravens needed in the upcoming draft by stating, "The question is, 'Are you going to let me do what I do? If not, then let me go.'" The Ravens drafted 340-pound defensive tackle Haloti Ngata in the first round to free up Lewis to make tackles, much in the way Sam Adams and Tony Siragusa did in the team's Super Bowl season. "

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/footb...comments_x.htm


So we're using a reporter like Tom DiPace as the official clarification that Lewis was fighting through Iso's to get to 200 tackles? Ridiculous. Come'on Rev, you're better than that. While Lewis certainly faced more traffic than he did in 2000, thinking he was battling through multiple blocks on his way to those numbers is crazy. And I watched those games, Lewis did fight threw blockers - on occasion. But he also did a lot of dancing and as far as those crazy tackle numbers, nobody jumps on top of a pile like Ray Ray.

The comment about let me do what I do or let me go, I don't doubt Ray disliked playing in traffic. If anything, that just further solidifies my argument that he's a better player in space. Unless we go back and look at the game film, there's no way of clarifying what plays Lewis made fighting through blockers and which he didn't. I can only tell you that from watching plenty of the Ravens, it's his greatest weakness - but didn't stop him from being the best LB of our era.

Like socalorado already pointed out, he's already said he was excited about Woodyard, and NOT committed to a system. You're making assumptions on where you want him to play DJ.

See my previous post re:Williams, Woodyard and Larsen.

Also, I thought he'd learn to fight through traffic when he played MLB too. Alas I was dead wrong, AND the mentality change that I'd also hoped for didn't arrive when he moved back outside.

I'm interested to hear what you specifically wanted DJ to do back at WLB this season that he didn't do. I would've liked to see some FF's and INT's - but in general I was very happy with his play and I'm intrigued to hear what was frustrating you about his play.

If Williams wants the credit. Either make a ****ing play, or be a consistent factor. He's not some rookie. He needs to earn some modicum of respect. Wesley in a handful of games has done more for that vote of confidence.

Again, what more do you want to see from him than he showed you early in the season? I'm honestly interested to hear your opinion of what areas DJ struggled with so mightily back at WLB prior to injury.

Kaylore
01-27-2009, 12:54 PM
None of our linebackers are good at shedding blocks. He did bite on PA much less and was really attacking his gap assignments. Before injury DJ was playing really well in and in clutch situations too.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 12:54 PM
Headed home. Will find some time to respond to this soon. :)

montrose
01-27-2009, 01:01 PM
Headed home. Will find some time to respond to this soon. :)

Looking forward to it, although I have to head off to volunteer at the DWill Center. I'll be back on tonight.

None of our linebackers are good at shedding blocks. He did bite on PA much less and was really attacking his gap assignments. Before injury DJ was playing really well in and in clutch situations too.

The best poster on this site. You da man.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 02:40 PM
I'm not sure how many times I need to keep retyping that I'm not trying to compare Lewis and Williams although you keep trying to go back to that argument. As far as not cracking the nickel package over Gold, I know you're not using our organization as a barometer for who is playing well because this is the same staff that elected to put an injured Williams on the field over the beloved Wesley Woodyard.

Because you keep bringing up more examples comparing the two? I'd guess stopping that would a go a long ways towards stopping their comparisons?

Gold and Woodyard is a ridiculous standard to use.

A. Larry Coyer was an outstanding LBs coach turned DC who was TRYING to use DJ in the nickel and finally pulled him out of sheer frustration over mistakes in TC.
B. Did the staff TELL DJ to play, or did he say he was ready to go? I'd guess the former, but the point is we don't know.

So we're using a reporter like Tom DiPace as the official clarification that Lewis was fighting through Iso's to get to 200 tackles? Ridiculous. Come'on Rev, you're better than that. While Lewis certainly faced more traffic than he did in 2000, thinking he was battling through multiple blocks on his way to those numbers is crazy. And I watched those games, Lewis did fight threw blockers - on occasion. But he also did a lot of dancing and as far as those crazy tackle numbers, nobody jumps on top of a pile like Ray Ray.

I'm hardly using Tom DiPace as the official clarification on anything. But if you don't have any respect for his view or how I remember it playing out, so be it. Maybe Rex Ryan is good enough for you?

"We're excited about getting the bull's-eye off Ray Lewis," Rex Ryan said. "He doesn't need to be a nose guard this year. We should be in great shape against the running game. You don't have a blocker for Ray."

However, what I remember reinforced with an article from a credible news outlet of that time, and one of the best DC's in the game at that time versus what you remember over 4 years ago... well, what seems more accurate to you? Also, you would've been 20 at the time (not pulling a Popps, bare with me), which probably places you in college. Did you play? If so, weren't the majority of your Sundays travel time? When's all this Raven's analyzing coming into play?

But that's fine. I see you're already starting to backtrack on your dancing comparison. Another ten more posts and you'll be at a completely new opinion again.

The comment about let me do what I do or let me go, I don't doubt Ray disliked playing in traffic. If anything, that just further solidifies my argument that he's a better player in space. Unless we go back and look at the game film, there's no way of clarifying what plays Lewis made fighting through blockers and which he didn't. I can only tell you that from watching plenty of the Ravens, it's his greatest weakness - but didn't stop him from being the best LB of our era.

Uhhhh, that's your big take? He's better playing in space? Everyone on the field, on any team, at any level are better playing in space.

See my previous post re:Williams, Woodyard and Larsen.



I'm interested to hear what you specifically wanted DJ to do back at WLB this season that he didn't do. I would've liked to see some FF's and INT's - but in general I was very happy with his play and I'm intrigued to hear what was frustrating you about his play.

Again, what more do you want to see from him than he showed you early in the season? I'm honestly interested to hear your opinion of what areas DJ struggled with so mightily back at WLB prior to injury.

Missed reads as usual. Taking absurd drops to where he's not cutting off ANY passing lanes when the defense is playing zone. And versus the run, you can look at other 4-3 Wills, and that's what I want. DJs probably in the top half for 4-3 WLBs, but no where near the top. A guy like Bulluck that can take on a blocker at the line, engage him and scrape down the line shadowing the ball carrier, bouncing the play outside, and then shed him and make the tackle. ****, GOKUN made a play where he did that to TWO SEPERATE BLOCKERS! When was the last time you saw DJ do that? I'll let you use his entire career as a sample size. Hint? The answer is not a goddamn time.

And what else hasn't he done? He's a first round pick, with all the measurables and track speed in the world. He should be able to play anywhere in any system at a LB spot. He can't. He's a mouse. He SHOULD be a guy (especially at this point in his career) offensive coordinators game plan around, instead he's a guy our own defensive coordinator needs to game plan for.



Anything else?

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 02:42 PM
None of our linebackers are good at shedding blocks. He did bite on PA much less and was really attacking his gap assignments. Before injury DJ was playing really well in and in clutch situations too.

Absolutely, but none are getting accolades like DJ is from some "credible posters", have that kind of draft pedigree, AND his measurables.

As for in clutch situations, can you name one outside of the New Orleans stop? That's not a knock on him, I just honestly can't remember any others. And he had a god awful game against KC pre-injury.

BroncoMan4ever
01-27-2009, 05:54 PM
I swaer he should have been left off the field with an injury like that. I hope he gets better and has a place on the team next season.

i don't. Woodyard outperformed him and if he is given a fair shot in camp this upcoming season, DJ will become a way overpriced backup if we stay in the 4-3.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 05:55 PM
i don't. Woodyard outperformed him and if he is given a fair shot in camp this upcoming season, DJ will become a way overpriced backup if we stay in the 4-3.

...and like I called, we should. For this season, at least.

montrose
01-27-2009, 06:23 PM
Because you keep bringing up more examples comparing the two? I'd guess stopping that would a go a long ways towards stopping their comparisons?

I believe you're the one who keeps trying to compare the two. I simply used Lewis as a reference for one of Williams' weaknesses. You decided to run with this for whatever reason. To keep things simply, I will never bring up Ray Lewis' name for the rest of this thread.

Gold and Woodyard is a ridiculous standard to use.

A. Larry Coyer was an outstanding LBs coach turned DC who was TRYING to use DJ in the nickel and finally pulled him out of sheer frustration over mistakes in TC.
B. Did the staff TELL DJ to play, or did he say he was ready to go? I'd guess the former, but the point is we don't know.

Do you have exact evidence that Coyer was TRYING to use DJ in the nickel? Because I attend camp every year and remember Wilson and Gold practicing in the nickel from day one. Resigning Gold was a big part of "the plan". In terms of this year, regardless of whether DJ was told to play or said he was ready, the coaching staff determined they'd rather DJ be on the field, injured, than Woodyard, healthy. My point here, since obviously I have to spell it out, is that our past staff/FO is the last place to look for credible defensive personnel evaluations.

I'm hardly using Tom DiPace as the official clarification on anything. But if you don't have any respect for his view or how I remember it playing out, so be it. Maybe Rex Ryan is good enough for you?

"We're excited about getting the bull's-eye off Ray Lewis," Rex Ryan said. "He doesn't need to be a nose guard this year. We should be in great shape against the running game. You don't have a blocker for Ray."

I'm sure Ryan would use that seeing he was coming off a year in which Ray was injured. I'm not saying Ray didn't have to take on blockers. I'm calling your assertion that he was "fighting through 1-2 blockers on every tackle" to be an exaggeration.

However, what I remember reinforced with an article from a credible news outlet of that time, and one of the best DC's in the game at that time versus what you remember over 4 years ago... well, what seems more accurate to you?

Again, I'm not telling you that Ray wasn't fighting off blockers. I'm saying that your "fighting through 1-2 blockers on every tackle" was a major over exaggeration.

Also, you would've been 20 at the time (not pulling a Popps, bare with me), which probably places you in college. Did you play? If so, weren't the majority of your Sundays travel time? When's all this Raven's analyzing coming into play?

Our games were on Saturday actually and we played in the OAC - never traveling into Sundays. My Ravens analysis came not only from living in Baltimore, but our defense was actually studying quite a bit of the Ravens defense at the time. After I was injured, I was an Asst. LB Coach and we specifically broke down film on the Ravens often. Our LB coach who I respect and admire greatly (and funny enough he actually coached McDaniels at JCU) took me through the art of playing and coaching the position.

But that's fine. I see you're already starting to backtrack on your dancing comparison. Another ten more posts and you'll be at a completely new opinion again.

I'm not back tracking at all and won't be back to a new opinion at all. Ray Lewis dances with blockers. He can be even worse at it than DJ. You'll never change my mind on this.

Everyone on the field, on any team, at any level are better playing in space.

This statement discredits your football credibility so much Rev. Several, several, players struggle playing in space.

Missed reads as usual. Taking absurd drops to where he's not cutting off ANY passing lanes when the defense is playing zone. And versus the run, you can look at other 4-3 Wills, and that's what I want.

This coming from the guy who loves Wesley Woodyard? Geese Louise...

DJs probably in the top half for 4-3 WLBs, but no where near the top. A guy like Bulluck that can take on a blocker at the line, engage him and scrape down the line shadowing the ball carrier, bouncing the play outside, and then shed him and make the tackle. ****, GOKUN made a play where he did that to TWO SEPERATE BLOCKERS! When was the last time you saw DJ do that? I'll let you use his entire career as a sample size. Hint? The answer is not a goddamn time.

Bulluck is certainly a more physical type of player than DJ, and I'd personally take Bulluck over him. With that, saying DJ isn't near the top of WLB's is ridiculous. The guy was all over the field before being injured, in the top 5 in the league in tackles. SI named him to their All-Mid Season Team and he received heavy praise from notable personnel-turned-media men Floyd Reese and Pat Kirwan. I have no idea who GOKUN is but if you're referring to Chris Gocong, I haven't seen enough of the Eagles to make an educated comment.

And what else hasn't he done? He's a first round pick, with all the measurables and track speed in the world. He should be able to play anywhere in any system at a LB spot. He can't. He's a mouse. He SHOULD be a guy (especially at this point in his career) offensive coordinators game plan around, instead he's a guy our own defensive coordinator needs to game plan for.

Geese, did he kick your dog or something? Honestly, I've never seen such a credible and respected poster take such a strong and relatively (this is a key word Rev) unfounded stance against a player respected by what you later deemed "credible posters" as well as local Denver media and several, previously mentioned experts. I realize he may not be what you were hoping for when he was drafted, but damn bro. I'm personally disappointed with what Jay Cutler's done so far but I'm not going to discredit his accomplishments and skills.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 06:44 PM
I believe you're the one who keeps trying to compare the two. I simply used Lewis as a reference for one of Williams' weaknesses. You decided to run with this for whatever reason. To keep things simply, I will never bring up Ray Lewis' name for the rest of this thread.

Well, then you're welcome to scroll back and see who brings it up in the first place and then who takes every measure (with zero factual evidence other than, "Dude I totally watch the Ravens and seriously, man, that is not what happened" versus quotes from National Newspapers and Defensive Coordinators... so yeah, you keep working your amateur hour angle. Seems to working for you quite well

Do you have exact evidence that Coyer was TRYING to use DJ in the nickel? Because I attend camp every year and remember Wilson and Gold practicing in the nickel from day one. Resigning Gold was a big part of "the plan". In terms of this year, regardless of whether DJ was told to play or said he was ready, the coaching staff determined they'd rather DJ be on the field, injured, than Woodyard, healthy. My point here, since obviously I have to spell it out, is that our past staff/FO is the last place to look for credible defensive personnel evaluations.

In fact, I do. I'll never go to the lengths to illuminate or harm trust, but there are a handful of people here who are well aware of what I'm talking about.

Per the rest of your paragraph, it's complete dog**** and 110% supposition. Like everything you've said here. Zero facts.

PS. Our "past staff" is the same staff that will be doing personnel evaluations for draft/FA, so good job.



I'm sure Ryan would use that seeing he was coming off a year in which Ray was injured. I'm not saying Ray didn't have to take on blockers. I'm calling your assertion that he was "fighting through 1-2 blockers on every tackle" to be an exaggeration.

I thought you were done bringing up Ray? :)

He missed one game due to injury and still had 146 tackles as Rex Ryan describes playing half nose, but according to you, he's a dancer on the level of DJ Williams, right? Good analysis

Again, I'm not telling you that Ray wasn't fighting off blockers. I'm saying that your "fighting through 1-2 blockers on every tackle" was a major over exaggeration.

You know how ISO plays work, right? Or am I, the writer, Rex Ryan, and Brian Billick all absurdly wrong and your recollection trumps us all?

Our games were on Saturday actually and we played in the OAC - never traveling into Sundays. My Ravens analysis came not only from living in Baltimore, but our defense was actually studying quite a bit of the Ravens defense at the time. After I was injured, I was an Asst. LB Coach and we specifically broke down film on the Ravens often. Our LB coach who I respect and admire greatly (and funny enough he actually coached McDaniels at JCU) took me through the art of playing and coaching the position.


Durrrrrrrrrr. I'm aware colleges play primarily on Saturdays, but where I come from, Sunday is a travel home day. That's pretty standard.

I'm going to guess you were a lineman. If I had to be more specific, I'd say offensive. If I had to make a sheer stab in the dark, I'd say a guard. Am I right? If I'm wrong, and you're a DL, I'm gonna have to roll with a stunt specialist DT for pass downs.


I'm not back tracking at all and won't be back to a new opinion at all. Ray Lewis dances with blockers. He can be even worse at it than DJ. You'll never change my mind on this.

Then something is significantly wrong with you. Maybe a trip to the optometrist is in order?

The comment about let me do what I do or let me go, I don't doubt Ray disliked playing in traffic. If anything, that just further solidifies my argument that he's a better player in space. Unless we go back and look at the game film, there's no way of clarifying what plays Lewis made fighting through blockers and which he didn't. I can only tell you that from watching plenty of the Ravens, it's his greatest weakness - but didn't stop him from being the best LB of our era.



This statement discredits your football credibility so much Rev. Several, several, players struggle playing in space.

Oh yeah, so many players find it a lot easier to make a play with someone up their ass, than free. You really nailed me there!

See my previous post re:Williams, Woodyard and Larsen.



This coming from the guy who loves Wesley Woodyard? Geese Louise...

I love how you haven't refuted any of it

Bulluck is certainly a more physical type of player than DJ, and I'd personally take Bulluck over him. With that, saying DJ isn't near the top of WLB's is ridiculous. The guy was all over the field before being injured, in the top 5 in the league in tackles. SI named him to their All-Mid Season Team and he received heavy praise from notable personnel-turned-media men Floyd Reese and Pat Kirwan. I have no idea who GOKUN is but if you're referring to Chris Gocong, I haven't seen enough of the Eagles to make an educated comment.

Ah, praise from personnel men that are so great they don't work in the league anymore! I'm sold.

Tell me this... name all the 4-3 Wills that you think DJ is better than... not in the same league. Better. If you can come up with 10, color me impressed.

Geese, did he kick your dog or something? Honestly, I've never seen such a credible and respected poster take such a strong and relatively (this is a key word Rev) unfounded stance against a player respected by what you later deemed "credible posters" as well as local Denver media and several, previously mentioned experts. I realize he may not be what you were hoping for when he was drafted, but damn bro.

Unfounded? I'd say every post you've made during this off-season that has generally made me avoid your threads for their sheer volume of incorrect information, and the steep decline in respect level I've had for you really speaks volumes for me, personally, but so be it.

Like I said. Name 10 4-3 Wills DJ is better than.



Though I'd rather not touch your individual points on the whole for their large inconsistencies, something about your mannerisms of late certainly make me want to, so here.

PS. You're a credit to humanity for your work at the D-Will center tonight.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 06:54 PM
Btw, comparing DJ's accomplishments on D, and Cutler's on the Offensive side of the ball, are laughable at best.

montrose
01-27-2009, 07:26 PM
Well, then you're welcome to scroll back and see who brings it up in the first place and then who takes every measure (with zero factual evidence other than, "Dude I totally watch the Ravens and seriously, man, that is not what happened" versus quotes from National Newspapers and Defensive Coordinators... so yeah, you keep working your amateur hour angle. Seems to working for you quite well

The fact you used the sentence "Dude I totally watch the Ravens and seriously, man, that is not what happened,” I find to be personally insulting and refuse to dignify it with a response. Don’t try to spin this to be my word vs. National Newspapers and Defensive Coordinators. While I may try to read between the lines, in regards to this specific argument – my previously asserted statement remains however I am no longer discussing Ray Lewis in this thread.

In fact, I do. I'll never go to the lengths to illuminate or harm trust, but there are a handful of people here who are well aware of what I'm talking about.

I’ll trust your credibility and say point Rev.

Per the rest of your paragraph, it's complete dog**** and 110% supposition. Like everything you've said here. Zero facts.

How is what I’m saying in this particular paragraph supposition? DJ Williams was clearly still injured and was on the field while Wesley Woodyard was on the bench. Williams does not have the pull to put himself on the field while injured. For whatever reason (one I strongly disagree with as I think defensive injuries should be worked back in slowly), the coaches deemed Williams needed to be on the field.

PS. Our "pass staff" is the same staff that will be doing personnel evaluations for draft/FA, so good job.

Did I ever say I was happy these guys would be making our current defensive personnel decisions? These are the same guys who drafted Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder.

I thought you were done bringing up Ray?

I said the rest of the thread, not that post.

He missed one game due to injury and still had 146 tackles as Rex Ryan describes playing half nose, but according to you, he's a dancer on the level of DJ Williams, right? Good analysis.

Well Williams had 141 playing inside in front of a revolving door of DT’s that included Sam Adams, Amon Gordon and Antwon Burton. Does this mean DJ doesn’t dance?

You know how ISO plays work, right? Or am I, the writer, Rex Ryan, and Brian Billick all absurdly wrong and your recollection trumps us all

Yes I know how an Isolation play works. And again, you’re trying to spin this as me directly against the word of said parties. I don’t know where Billick came into this. I never refuted what Ryan said, just read between the lines. I do think the writer embellished a bit. But if we’re going to go with writers as credible experts, every Denver-writer was in love with DJ this season.

Durrrrrrrrrr. I'm aware colleges play primarily on Saturdays, but where I come from, Sunday is a travel home day. That's pretty standard.

I'm going to guess you were a lineman. If I had to be more specific, I'd say offensive. If I had to make a sheer stab in the dark, I'd say a guard. Am I right? If I'm wrong, and you're a DL, I'm gonna have to roll with a stunt specialist DT for pass downs.

I’m not sure if this was intended to be an insult. For the record, I played SOLB.

Then something is significantly wrong with you. Maybe a trip to the optometrist is in order?

I’m not going to respond to insults.

Oh yeah, so many players find it a lot easier to make a play with someone up their ass, than free. You really nailed me there!

I never said with someone up their ass, but some players are better suited to play within a controlled environment at the LOS and between the hashes. Edgerton Hartwell comes to mind.

I love how you haven't refuted any of it

Per the missed reads, I’m sure he does miss some reads – moving around position to position in scheme after scheme doesn’t help that. Did you ever consider his “absurd drops” may have had something to do with the coaching seeing the great Wesley Woodyard did the exact same thing?

Ah, praise from personnel men that are so great they don't work in the league anymore! I'm sold.

You and I have never worked in the league (to my knowledge) so I’ll take their words over ours.

Tell me this... name all the 4-3 Wills that you think DJ is better than... not in the same league. Better. If you can come up with 10, color me impressed.

1) Scott Shanle
2) Pina Tinoisamoa
3) Hunter Hillenmeyer
4) Brandon Chillar
5) Michael Boley
6) Justin Durant
7) Ernie Sims
8) Chase Blackburn
9) Thomas Davis
10) Rocky McIntosh
11) Wesley Woodyard – Just for good measure

Unfounded?

I said relatively unfounded. Relatively was italicized and preceded by a note in parentheses to make certain you were made aware of it. Apparently you were not.

I'd say every post you've made during this off-season that has generally made me avoid your threads for their sheer volume of incorrect information, and the steep decline in respect level I've had for you really speaks volumes for me, personally, but so be it.

If you want to disagree with my posts, that’s fine. I’m no football expert and am wrong a great deal of the time. But the statement “sheer volume of incorrect information” implies to me that I should bow down to your football acumen yet I have no idea from where it’s founded. If you choose to respect me less, that’s fine too, I just ask you limit the insults.

Like I said. Name 10 4-3 Wills DJ is better than.

See above.

Though I'd rather not touch your individual points on the whole for their large inconsistencies, something about your mannerisms of late certainly make me want to, so here.

Again, this statement implies to me that your assertions are “right” and mine are “wrong”. As far as my mannerisms, I have no idea to what you’re referring. Again, I just ask that you refrain from the insults. We’re Broncos fans here and I recognize that we all want what’s best for the team. While we may disagree in how to get there, there’s no reason to attack one another personally. I enjoy debating football issues but have no desire to get into any more name calling or indirect insults on the internet with a poster that I largely respect.
Btw, comparing DJ's accomplishments on D, and Cutler's on the Offensive side of the ball, are laughable at best.

Again, it was not a comparison between the accomplishments of the two (why do you keep doing that?) but rather showing an example that just because someone doesn’t meet your initial expectations doesn’t make them a failure. I was hoping for a lot more from Cutler at this point, but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize him for what he is – a QB on the rise who with some slight tinkering could be one of (if not the best) QB in the league. Just the same as DJ, who quite honestly I’m also disappointed with as I was hoping he’d be a big-time playmaking LB. While the position shuffling and coaching changes surely didn’t help, I’ve recognized at this point what he is – a very good WLB.

PS. You're a credit to humanity for your work at the D-Will center tonight.

Thanks. I volunteer there every week.

TheReverend
01-27-2009, 08:09 PM
The fact you used the sentence "Dude I totally watch the Ravens and seriously, man, that is not what happened,” I find to be personally insulting and refuse to dignify it with a response. Don’t try to spin this to be my word vs. National Newspapers and Defensive Coordinators. While I may try to read between the lines, in regards to this specific argument – my previously asserted statement remains however I am no longer discussing Ray Lewis in this thread.

k

I’ll trust your credibility and say point Rev.



How is what I’m saying in this particular paragraph supposition? DJ Williams was clearly still injured and was on the field while Wesley Woodyard was on the bench. Williams does not have the pull to put himself on the field while injured. For whatever reason (one I strongly disagree with as I think defensive injuries should be worked back in slowly), the coaches deemed Williams needed to be on the field.

Not what I was talking about, re-read please. It's all Montrose opinion and nothing else

Did I ever say I was happy these guys would be making our current defensive personnel decisions? These are the same guys who drafted Jarvis Moss and Tim Crowder.

Patience is a virtue. Neither were my favorite picks, but both can still pan out.

I said the rest of the thread, not that post.



Well Williams had 141 playing inside in front of a revolving door of DT’s that included Sam Adams, Amon Gordon and Antwon Burton. Does this mean DJ doesn’t dance?

Right, and when you factor in that ONE is a perennial DPOY candidate that is constantly being game planned against, and the other was in a funnel system that turned Nick Barnett into a stat stud, then you discern all you need to from that numbers, now can't you?

Yes I know how an Isolation play works. And again, you’re trying to spin this as me directly against the word of said parties. I don’t know where Billick came into this. I never refuted what Ryan said, just read between the lines. I do think the writer embellished a bit. But if we’re going to go with writers as credible experts, every Denver-writer was in love with DJ this season.

I know you do. And I can pull as many Billick quotes as you'd like if you want. Google Billick 46 or Billick Ray Lewis if you want on your free time.

I’m not sure if this was intended to be an insult. For the record, I played SOLB.

Nope, no insult. Just some buzzwords you use are pretty exclusive to OL. If you say you played SOLB, I'll take your word for it

I’m not going to respond to insults.



I never said with someone up their ass, but some players are better suited to play within a controlled environment at the LOS and between the hashes. Edgerton Hartwell comes to mind.

Ed Hartwell? Are you talking about his injury plagued seasons in Atl and Cinci that are probably directly attributed to his pounding in Baltimore?

Per the missed reads, I’m sure he does miss some reads – moving around position to position in scheme after scheme doesn’t help that. Did you ever consider his “absurd drops” may have had something to do with the coaching seeing the great Wesley Woodyard did the exact same thing?

Show me the plays where Wesley is 15-20 yards down field in a zone? That's not coaching, that's mental retardation

You and I have never worked in the league (to my knowledge) so I’ll take their words over ours.



1) Scott Shanle
2) Pina Tinoisamoa
3) Hunter Hillenmeyer
4) Brandon Chillar
5) Michael Boley
6) Justin Durant
7) Ernie Sims
8) Chase Blackburn
9) Thomas Davis
10) Rocky McIntosh
11) Wesley Woodyard – Just for good measure

Nice to know you needed back ups to find 10. Good for you. DJ for perennial all-pro! Also, beyond the back-ups you listed, Hillenmeyer and Boley are both SLBs, to WLB studs Briggs and Brooking.

So, looking at your list from an ACCURATE perspective, you have 6 WLBs that DJ's better than (and someone can EASILY contend that Ernie Sims, Thomas Davis and Rocky McIntosh are at least "on his level"--but I'll give you benefit of the doubt), so out of roughly 20+ teams, you have DJ dramatically in the bottom half?

Another funny point, you called DJ "the best WLB in the league" on page 1 of the thread, and then recently said you "prefer Bulluck"... so wtf is going on, Montrose?


I said relatively unfounded. Relatively was italicized and preceded by a note in parentheses to make certain you were made aware of it. Apparently you were not.

I see. So unfounded is a completely conditional word?

If you want to disagree with my posts, that’s fine. I’m no football expert and am wrong a great deal of the time. But the statement “sheer volume of incorrect information” implies to me that I should bow down to your football acumen yet I have no idea from where it’s founded. If you choose to respect me less, that’s fine too, I just ask you limit the insults.

yawn

See above.



Again, this statement implies to me that your assertions are “right” and mine are “wrong”. As far as my mannerisms, I have no idea to what you’re referring. Again, I just ask that you refrain from the insults. We’re Broncos fans here and I recognize that we all want what’s best for the team. While we may disagree in how to get there, there’s no reason to attack one another personally. I enjoy debating football issues but have no desire to get into any more name calling or indirect insults on the internet with a poster that I largely respect.

Absurd accusations help diminish these.

Again, it was not a comparison between the accomplishments of the two (why do you keep doing that?) but rather showing an example that just because someone doesn’t meet your initial expectations doesn’t make them a failure. I was hoping for a lot more from Cutler at this point, but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognize him for what he is – a QB on the rise who with some slight tinkering could be one of (if not the best) QB in the league. Just the same as DJ, who quite honestly I’m also disappointed with as I was hoping he’d be a big-time playmaking LB. While the position shuffling and coaching changes surely didn’t help, I’ve recognized at this point what he is – a very good WLB.

Why does the position shuffling affect him so poorly when there's so many learning opportunities available to him by this experience?

Why does an UDFA come in and not only provide a seamless transition, but BETTER play?

DJ is far from the root of our problem, but he's just as far from being the ANSWER to the problem.


Thanks. I volunteer there every week.

You should be commended for your volunteer work.

montrose
01-27-2009, 08:48 PM
Not what I was talking about, re-read please. It's all Montrose opinion and nothing else

There’s nothing else for me to say here so I wont. Agree to disagree.

Patience is a virtue. Neither were my favorite picks, but both can still pan out.

I hope they do but I’m not optimistic.

Right, and when you factor in that ONE is a perennial DPOY candidate that is constantly being game planned against, and the other was in a funnel system that turned Nick Barnett into a stat stud, then you discern all you need to from that numbers, now can't you?

Yes I can. I was merely pointing out that just because I guy has great numbers doesn’t mean he has no weaknesses. DJ was average at best in 2007 at MLB, but had a strong statistical season. A guy may pile up tackles every season, but that doesn’t mean he’s without flaws in his game.

I know you do. And I can pull as many Billick quotes as you'd like if you want. Google Billick 46 or Billick Ray Lewis if you want on your free time.

Living in Baltimore for over a decade, I’ve heard enough of Brian Billick in my lifetime. The funny thing is (and this is completely unrelated to your statements), I don’t recall the Ravens running a ton of the 46 after they spent so much time hyping it. It was part of their defense, but it wasn’t like they made a huge wholesale switch.

Nope, no insult. Just some buzzwords you use are pretty exclusive to OL. If you say you played SOLB, I'll take your word for it

I had to learn a lot of the OL playbook as our coaches wanted us well-versed on each side of the ball and once I got into coaching, I had to learn pretty much all of it. Our SOLB was pretty similar to a DE though. I had extremely limited pass coverage responsibilities and was mostly responsible for outside contain.

Ed Hartwell? Are you talking about his injury plagued seasons in Atl and Cinci that are probably directly attributed to his pounding in Baltimore?
Well we can’t be for certain if that is what directly attributed to the injuries but Hartwell was always a guy who flourished in traffic and wasn’t at his best playing in space. I’ve been a bit worried as to how Larsen may look in space as well – although I admittedly haven’t broken down enough of his tape to come up with a general conclusion.

Show me the plays where Wesley is 15-20 yards down field in a zone? That's not coaching, that's mental retardation

DJ was 15-20 yards down field in a zone? I honestly don’t remember that and if you can point it out I’ll have no response. Woodyard did find himself a bit too deep in zone coverage often, although I chalked a lot of that up to Slowik.

Nice to know you needed back ups to find 10. Good for you. DJ for perennial all-pro! Also, beyond the back-ups you listed, Hillenmeyer and Boley are both SLBs, to WLB studs Briggs and Brooking.

I was in a rush and skimmed through a list of LB’s by weight. Not thorough at all on my part. I haven’t seen enough film of all of the league’s WLB’s to necessarily rank them but I’ve instead bowed to guys like Kirwan and Reese who know a lot more about football than me.

Another funny point, you called DJ "the best WLB in the league" on page 1 of the thread, and then recently said you "prefer Bulluck"... so wtf is going on, Montrose?

I felt DJ was playing the WLB position (taking into account porous coaching and supporting cast) better than anyone in the league at that time but Bulluck’s consistency and leadership make him the best in the league to me.

I see. So unfounded is a completely conditional word?

No, but the reason I said relatively is that for someone who I know has demonstrated a ton of football knowledge – some of your DJ ascertions have seem unfounded to me, relative to the outstanding posts you make regarding other players.

yawn

Well it is late back east.

Absurd accusations help diminish these.

Absurd in your opinion. I believe some of your accusations have been a bit puzzling as well.


Why does the position shuffling affect him so poorly when there's so many learning opportunities available to him by this experience?

Because he’s never had the opportunity to get to where things are natural. I’m sure he’s picked up a lot of knowledge from those opportunities, but I don’t see how switching positions each year is contusive to playing well at one spot/

Why does an UDFA come in and not only provide a seamless transition, but BETTER play?

Again, your opinion. I suppose we’ll see what the new coaches think and if DJ is on the bench watching Woodyard play – I’ll be rendered speechless.

DJ is far from the root of our problem, but he's just as far from being the ANSWER to the problem.

I never said DJ was the answer to anything Rev. I simply think he’s a good football player. He’s not dominant, not a guy to gameplan around or a leader to boot. The answer to the problem is the DL, the MLB and the S positions.

You should be commended for your volunteer work.

It’s no big deal. I help kids read and do their homework. As a few guys here on the board know, I was really shaken up by D-Will’s death and it’s kind of way for me to deal with it.

SoCalBronco
01-27-2009, 09:35 PM
Sigh.

The problem with Rev's arguments is that its hypocritical to be ragging on DJ as a guy who doesn't do anything when he IS ALREADY ON RECORD AS ADMITTING THAT DJ was having a pro bowl year. It is true that he isn't an interception machine, but he was racking up a large number of TFL or tackles right at the LOS this season. That's what you want from your WLB.

What does it say when we see that despite missing 5 games and in reality not being himself for actually 8 games, that DJ still led the entire team in TFL, with 3 more than the two players who finished 2nd. What does that tell you? It strains credulity when I see people criticizing him when you have guys in the scouting community in our league believe is a very good player. It has been noted in a number of articles in addition to highly respected reports from PFW Whispers etc. how well he was playing before he got hurt.

There's really very little to discuss here. It's almost like people got happy that he got hurt so that his play could decline so that they could find a reason to criticize him since he was being roundly praised by everyone prior to that. I'd suggest you try to play with a lingering knee injury that robs you of your greatest asset, your burst in pursuit and to top it off, a shoulder injury that makes it more difficult for you to tackle. It would appear that the haters would like us to believe that despite being a top notch tackler, he somehow forgot how to tackle at midseason.

I strongly recommend for any "doubter" to tackle a freight train 230 pound RB with a bum shoulder and then report back to me as to the level of your success.

It's really strange. It's VERY strange what people here do to this guy. The guy is a great soldier despite all the bad things he's been subjected to here, he's a first class person, he shies away from the limelight, he isnt a flavor clown despite many people expecting him to be based on where he comes from, he volunteers alot of assistance to the young WW when he has to step in for him (WW's words not mine) and plays at a high level when he is healthy and plays where he should be and then even plays through pain rather than malingering on the sidelines and people have a problem with it. It suggests that there are serious issues that people have to deal with re: themselves.

mr007
01-27-2009, 10:09 PM
I really think the biggest issue with DJ is he simply doesn't seem to be the smartest guy on the football field. Personally, I think he's just a slow learner, and the adjustments to the different positions has set him back a bit to where he should be in his career. I honestly think he's going to turn out to be a pro-bowl caliber linebacker with some consistency on D, he just has some evolving to do and unfortunately it's coming at a slow pace.

Popps
01-27-2009, 10:11 PM
Absolutely, but none are getting accolades like DJ is from some "credible posters", have that kind of draft pedigree, AND his measurables.

As for in clutch situations, can you name one outside of the New Orleans stop? That's not a knock on him, I just honestly can't remember any others. And he had a god awful game against KC pre-injury.

But, he led the league in tackles at one point!!!

That always means a guy's awesome!

Popps
01-27-2009, 10:19 PM
Sigh.

The problem with Rev's arguments is that its hypocritical to be ragging on DJ as a guy who doesn't do anything when he IS ALREADY ON RECORD AS ADMITTING THAT DJ was having a pro bowl year.

For me personally (and I know you were talking about someone else)... I had said that he might be getting good enough to get a Pro Bowl look.

There WAS a stretch of games where he looked like a factor, though still not a Pro Bowl player just yet. Again, tackle numbers don't mean enough in and of themselves.

SoCal, we know you like the guy. He's simply not a play-maker. He's a chaser. He's fast. He's fine... but he's a non-issue in big games. Put him in the right situations and he can chase and tackle pretty well, clearly. But, no amount of arguing is going to turn him into a difference-maker.

Furthermore, 3-4 LBs have to be nasty, play-making mother****ers... not the chasers that Shanahan was in love with. (Ian Gold, etc.) We need big, nasty, mean, pass-rushing mother****ers. Sorry... DJ isn't anything close to that. He's a more efficient version of Boss Bailey.

Of course, at least DJ can usually stay on the field and can tackle when he picks the right place to run to. Boss Bailey is a disaster.

As I said, it's no coincidence that a huge portion of Broncos fans want to see more of Woodyard.

Hear anyone calling for more Karl Paymah if Champ was out and came back? (Etc.) You think if Cutler was out and returned from injury, we'd be having debates about keeping Ramsey in there?

DJ sat down and most people saw no drop-off and many saw an improvement at the position. The LBs absolutely improved in general without DJ/Webster. So, perhaps it was a coincidence, but it's NOT a coincidence that there is so much disagreement over this issue.

DJ hasn't asserted himself as a big-time play-maker. He's paid a ton, and people want ass-kickers out there. Fans are just calling it like they see it, SoCal.

Cito Pelon
01-27-2009, 10:57 PM
But, he led the league in tackles at one point!!!

That always means a guy's awesome!

These guys are playing slap and tickle, with all due respect.

BroncoMan4ever
01-27-2009, 11:26 PM
...and like I called, we should. For this season, at least.

i'd like to see us remain a 4-3 but as the season goes on maybe begin to incorporate the 3-4 a little and over this and next offseason invest picks into guys who can play both 3-4 and 4-3 defenses so we can transition into a 3-4 in a year or 2.

Florida_Bronco
01-28-2009, 12:08 AM
Sigh.

The problem with Rev's arguments is that its hypocritical to be ragging on DJ as a guy who doesn't do anything when he IS ALREADY ON RECORD AS ADMITTING THAT DJ was having a pro bowl year. It is true that he isn't an interception machine, but he was racking up a large number of TFL or tackles right at the LOS this season. That's what you want from your WLB.

What does it say when we see that despite missing 5 games and in reality not being himself for actually 8 games, that DJ still led the entire team in TFL, with 3 more than the two players who finished 2nd. What does that tell you? It strains credulity when I see people criticizing him when you have guys in the scouting community in our league believe is a very good player. It has been noted in a number of articles in addition to highly respected reports from PFW Whispers etc. how well he was playing before he got hurt.

There's really very little to discuss here. It's almost like people got happy that he got hurt so that his play could decline so that they could find a reason to criticize him since he was being roundly praised by everyone prior to that. I'd suggest you try to play with a lingering knee injury that robs you of your greatest asset, your burst in pursuit and to top it off, a shoulder injury that makes it more difficult for you to tackle. It would appear that the haters would like us to believe that despite being a top notch tackler, he somehow forgot how to tackle at midseason.

I strongly recommend for any "doubter" to tackle a freight train 230 pound RB with a bum shoulder and then report back to me as to the level of your success.

It's really strange. It's VERY strange what people here do to this guy. The guy is a great soldier despite all the bad things he's been subjected to here, he's a first class person, he shies away from the limelight, he isnt a flavor clown despite many people expecting him to be based on where he comes from, he volunteers alot of assistance to the young WW when he has to step in for him (WW's words not mine) and plays at a high level when he is healthy and plays where he should be and then even plays through pain rather than malingering on the sidelines and people have a problem with it. It suggests that there are serious issues that people have to deal with re: themselves.

Great post.

cutthemdown
01-28-2009, 12:14 AM
Dj doesnt stink, but likewise he's not that great.

IMO he will look better and better if we can just get him some help. He's more a role player in a linebacking corp not an anchor. He's not Al Wilson. He's not Romonowski. He's not Mecklenburgh. You can't build around him, you build with him.

Broncos need playmakers who have a nasty atitude. You get 3-4 of those and your average players can start making plays just by good coaching.

That's why our coordinaters have been struggling. Not enough studs to position to help your role players make plays. It really is that simple.

One yr I helped coach a pop warner team. Our guys really were struggling until we got a couple really good players. Once some really good players become the focal point, players who previoulsy did nothing started making plays.

I know that is a long stretch from NFL but the theory is the same.

Atwater His Ass
01-28-2009, 01:00 AM
SoCal nailed it once again.

The bandwagoning about certain players and ideas on this board based on no actual football criteria/knowledge is just mind boggling.

TheReverend
01-28-2009, 04:09 AM
Sigh.

The problem with Rev's arguments is that its hypocritical to be ragging on DJ as a guy who doesn't do anything when he IS ALREADY ON RECORD AS ADMITTING THAT DJ was having a pro bowl year. It is true that he isn't an interception machine, but he was racking up a large number of TFL or tackles right at the LOS this season. That's what you want from your WLB.

What does it say when we see that despite missing 5 games and in reality not being himself for actually 8 games, that DJ still led the entire team in TFL, with 3 more than the two players who finished 2nd. What does that tell you? It strains credulity when I see people criticizing him when you have guys in the scouting community in our league believe is a very good player. It has been noted in a number of articles in addition to highly respected reports from PFW Whispers etc. how well he was playing before he got hurt.

There's really very little to discuss here. It's almost like people got happy that he got hurt so that his play could decline so that they could find a reason to criticize him since he was being roundly praised by everyone prior to that. I'd suggest you try to play with a lingering knee injury that robs you of your greatest asset, your burst in pursuit and to top it off, a shoulder injury that makes it more difficult for you to tackle. It would appear that the haters would like us to believe that despite being a top notch tackler, he somehow forgot how to tackle at midseason.

I strongly recommend for any "doubter" to tackle a freight train 230 pound RB with a bum shoulder and then report back to me as to the level of your success.

It's really strange. It's VERY strange what people here do to this guy. The guy is a great soldier despite all the bad things he's been subjected to here, he's a first class person, he shies away from the limelight, he isnt a flavor clown despite many people expecting him to be based on where he comes from, he volunteers alot of assistance to the young WW when he has to step in for him (WW's words not mine) and plays at a high level when he is healthy and plays where he should be and then even plays through pain rather than malingering on the sidelines and people have a problem with it. It suggests that there are serious issues that people have to deal with re: themselves.

You're confusing the issue, Mike. No one's saying DJ is a bad player and especially no worse than our other "starting" LBs, but he's got many holes in his game still and most aggravating for me is he certainly dances around blocks... STILL

Also, yes I have said DJ was having a good year before the injury, and I also had an EXTREMELY critical post of his horrid play in the first KC game long before his injury, was never a Wesley Woodyard "fanboy", etc.

Can you find some of the argument to poke some holes in? DJ being a dancer was what I've said, and that one I'm sure you'll agree with.