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montrose
01-26-2009, 11:16 AM
http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/26/news/economy/job_cuts/index.htm

Bloody Monday: More than 50,000 jobs lost
Six companies announce massive job cuts in a scary start to the week.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- The final week of January began with a bloodbath for the job market, as more than 50,000 more cuts were announced on Monday alone.

At least six companies from manufacturing and service industries announced cost-cutting initiatives that included slashing thousands of jobs.

About 170,000 job cuts have been announced so far this year, according to company reports. Nearly 2.6 million jobs were lost over 2008, the highest yearly job-loss total since 1945.

"It's all about the consumer, and the consumer's been hit hard," said Robert Brusca, chief economist at Fact and Opinion Economics. "It's a vicious circle as weakness begets layoffs, which beget more spending weakness."

Construction machinery manufacturer Caterpillar (CAT, Fortune 500) said Monday it will cut 20,000 jobs amid a "very challenging global business environment." The company had already planned to cut 15,000 workers since the fourth quarter of 2008, but added another 5,000, bringing the total to 20,000.

Sprint Nextel Corp. (S, Fortune 500) will cut a total of about 8,000 jobs by March 31, the company said in a release. The telecommunications company's plan is to reduce internal and external labor costs by about $1.2 billion on an annual basis.

Home Depot (HD, Fortune 500), the world's largest home improvement retailer, announced Monday it will eliminate its EXPO design center business and cut 7,000 associates, or approximately 2% of the company's total workforce. The company blamed a lack of demand for big ticket design and decor projects.

Dutch financial group ING said Monday it will take a 2008 loss of $1.3 billion and cut 7,000 jobs. The company could not comment on where the cuts would take place. ING employs around 130,000 people across 50 countries.

Pfizer (PFE, Fortune 500) said in an earnings report it would cut 10% of its staff of 81,900 and close five of its manufacturing plants. The drugmaker recently announced that it was cutting up to 8% of its research staff, or up to 800 jobs. The company already cut 4,700 jobs in 2008.

Deere& Co. (DE, Fortune 500) , the world's top farm-equipment maker, said it would cut nearly 700 jobs between factories in Brazil and Iowa.

The job cuts across sectors didn't surprise Brusca, as nearly all are weak, he said.

"The services sector is shedding jobs at a horrific pace, because that's where most of the jobs are," Brusca said. "When the consumer is in tough shape it's hard for business to do well, because it all depends on consumption or investments."
Continuing the scary trend

The cuts mark a horrific start to the week, and a brutal start to 2009. In the previous week, around 40,000 cuts were announced across multiple industries.

Wednesday, in particular, was littered with a slew of job cuts: BHP Billiton, Clear Channel Communications, Intel, Rohm and Haas Co., UAL Corp. and Williams-Sonoma all announced job cuts totaling over 27,000 positions.

Also last week, Time Warner Inc.'s Warner Bros. Entertainment said it would cut about 800 jobs, or 10% of its worldwide staff in the upcoming weeks, while Microsoft unveiled its plan to cut up to 5,000 jobs - 5.5% of its global workforce.
Outlook: A recovery in sight?

Brusca said he agreed with many economists' predictions that the recession will end after the second quarter of 2009. Americans might feel the job market start to bounce back a bit sooner than expected, he said.

"These recessions are like geometry," Brusca said. "It looks like we'll have a V-shaped cycle, in that we're going into this with very sharp losses. This intense-phase recession will probably recover fairly quickly, with the job market coming out it at the same angle it came in."

In the short term, the economy and the job market are in trouble, Brusca said. But "it doesn't look like the bottom is falling out of the economy," he said.

And there's a silver lining to the gloomy clouds over America's economy.

"The good news is it's so bad right now that we will have a definite, noticeable recovery when it comes," Brusca said. "We're getting a lot of adjustment out of the way early." To top of page

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 11:17 AM
Obama will fix everything.

Hotrod
01-26-2009, 11:18 AM
Obama will fix everything.

Everything is free now I dont understand why anyone would want a job anyway ;)

crush17
01-26-2009, 11:18 AM
Sprint Nextel Corp. (S, Fortune 500) will cut a total of about 8,000 jobs by March 31, the company said in a release. The telecommunications company's plan is to reduce internal and external labor costs by about $1.2 billion on an annual basis.

Cross your fingers for me guys.
Its not a good day here. :(

theAPAOps5
01-26-2009, 11:19 AM
Edited out....

Sorry I didn't mean to joke right after you posted that crush17. I hope all goes ok for you.

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 11:19 AM
Cross your fingers for me guys.
Its not a good day here. :(

I think we're all on shaky ground. But my luck and prayers go out to you.

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:21 AM
Cross your fingers for me guys.
Its not a good day here. :(

Good luck. You are in my prayers.

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:23 AM
Cross your fingers for me guys.
Its not a good day here. :(

What do you do for them? Sales?

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:24 AM
Obama will fix everything.

I knew everyone would blame him the minute he got in office...even if its a backhanded, sarcastic quote. He never claimed to be a cure all and i, personally, think its virtually impossible to see an upswing befoere trhe last quarter of 2010. (and thats if the stimulus works). But this bipartisan plan (full of tax cuts) wont work as well as it could.

More job losses and foreclosures to come! Free Market Rocks!

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:25 AM
Cross your fingers for me guys.
Its not a good day here. :(

Good luck!

SoDak Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:33 AM
I knew everyone would blame him the minute he got in office...even if its a backhanded, sarcastic quote. He never claimed to be a cure all and i, personally, think its virtually impossible to see an upswing befoere trhe last quarter of 2010. (and thats if the stimulus works). But this bipartisan plan (full of tax cuts) wont work as well as it could.

More job losses and foreclosures to come! Free Market Rocks!

Free Market does Rock, it has served us pretty well over the past century. Some U.S. Companies have gotten to Fat and need to trim down and be more effiicient to be competitive. I was just laid off a few weeks ago, but have landed on my feet and am back doing my thing. Plenty of jobs out there, you just need to be willing and able to market yourself.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:34 AM
Free Market does Rock, it has served us pretty well over the past century. Some U.S. Companies have gotten to Fat and need to trim down and be more effiicient to be competitive. I was just laid off a few weeks ago, but have landed on my feet and am back doing my thing. Plenty of jobs out there, you just need to be willing and able to market yourself.

well plenty of jobs out there sure, but its not as easy as you just made it sound (though that is fantastic that you got another job). A regulated free market can def work...but humans by nature are greedy scum, so ... well, you start getting some corruption when its not being watched.

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 11:35 AM
I knew everyone would blame him the minute he got in office...even if its a backhanded, sarcastic quote. He never claimed to be a cure all and i, personally, think its virtually impossible to see an upswing befoere trhe last quarter of 2010. (and thats if the stimulus works). But this bipartisan plan (full of tax cuts) wont work as well as it could.

More job losses and foreclosures to come! Free Market Rocks!

LOL Are you saying you want to stand in bread lines like in communist Russia? Hilarious! Even the Chinese are going free market. Get over it.

Tombstone RJ
01-26-2009, 11:36 AM
I knew everyone would blame him the minute he got in office...even if its a backhanded, sarcastic quote. He never claimed to be a cure all and i, personally, think its virtually impossible to see an upswing befoere trhe last quarter of 2010. (and thats if the stimulus works). But this bipartisan plan (full of tax cuts) wont work as well as it could.

More job losses and foreclosures to come! Free Market Rocks!

Dude, the moment he was elected the stock market crashed further. No one is blaming Obama for this economic downturn, but some people believe his policies will hinder the economy even more.

The Free Market does Rock, and if you don't recognize this, go to China!

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:37 AM
LOL Are you saying you want to stand in bread lines like in communist Russia? Hilarious! Even the Chinese are going free market. Get over it.

Dude, why does everyone always go to the other extreme. And china institutes free market elements into their government (they were never really communist anyway, more or less got tagged with that moniker). America should acheive the healthy balance of free market economics with a regulating body overseeing it. I'm obviously going to lean more to the socialist side because of my personal ideals, but its deregulation that got us into this mess. There's a happy medium to be had. Im sure we can all agree on that

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:39 AM
Dude, the moment he was elected the stock market crashed further. No one is blaming Obama for this economic downturn, but some people believe his policies will hinder the economy even more.

The Free Market does Rock, and if you don't recognize this, go to China!

HE HASNT EVEN DONE ANYTHING YET!!!! The day to day market fluctuation has zero to do with him. Zero. Look at long term growth or lack there of before we judge it. Plus, no matter what he does, the economy is going to spin further downward...its the reality of the housing bubble and current banking crisis. I really do with they'd just nationalize these suckers for a few months and sell it to new owners

LordHelmchen
01-26-2009, 11:39 AM
Cross your fingers for me guys.
Its not a good day here. :(

good luck!
The company I work for just announced work reduction for everyone by 20%, so that nobody gets laid off for now. I fear that it's only delaying the inevitable.

BroncoFanatic
01-26-2009, 11:40 AM
So, according to Pelosi, Reid, Obama, and Bernake, if we spend more money, we'll prosper? Cool, I need to run home and wrack up some more credit card bills

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:41 AM
(and thats if the stimulus works).

And it won't. You can't spend your way out of debt. It's failed Bush policy and it will be a failed Obama policy.

Hotrod
01-26-2009, 11:42 AM
HE HASNT EVEN DONE ANYTHING YET!!!! The day to day market fluctuation has zero to do with him. Zero. Look at long term growth or lack there of before we judge it. Plus, no matter what he does, the economy is going to spin further downward...its the reality of the housing bubble and current banking crisis. I really do with they'd just nationalize these suckers for a few months and sell it to new owners

He has done plenty of damage. His socialistic platform/agenda has investors/CEO's etc shaking their heads.

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:44 AM
well plenty of jobs out there sure, but its not as easy as you just made it sound (though that is fantastic that you got another job). A regulated free market can def work...but humans by nature are greedy scum, so ... well, you start getting some corruption when its not being watched.

We have a regulated free market and have had a regulated free market. See that's the problem...government got involved in the first place.

And I'll also add that anytime I have been laid off I have found a job each time within 30 days. It IS all about your skill set and how you market yourself.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:44 AM
So, according to Pelosi, Reid, Obama, and Bernake, if we spend more money, we'll prosper? Cool, I need to run home and wrack up some more credit card bills

Normally, when youre in a recession it helps to lower the interest rate and that has cleared things up in the past. Problem is, the interest rate, as of now, is effectively zero, so its time for other options. We learned from hoover that cutting spending and raising taxes just further spirals the economy downward. So, enter government stimulus. Injecting money into the economy (by creating jobs in the public sector..infrastucture etc) is a way to get money back in people's pockets to create jobs and fortify the middle class. If that works, in theory it should, the middle class will start spending again, therefore giving the economy a boost. A lot of the stimulus is also coming in the way of tax cuts, though i dont think that works so much because people tend to save that money and not spend it.

So yes, desperate times call for desperate measures. If we do nothing, the situation will only get worse.

(all this is in theory by the way...the last time we were in this predicament, the thing that officially got us out was a little public works program otherwise known as ww2)

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:44 AM
He has done plenty of damage. His socialistic platform/agenda has investors/CEO's etc shaking their heads.

Christ, you are naive. Go back to reading Bill Kristol or something.

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:45 AM
LOL Are you saying you want to stand in bread lines like in communist Russia? Hilarious! Even the Chinese are going free market. Get over it.

That's what the socialist/Communists don't get. Even the models for their religion has failed and are going free market.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:46 AM
We have a regulated free market and have had a regulated free market. See that's the problem...government got involved in the first place.

And I'll also add that anytime I have been laid off I have found a job each time within 30 days. It IS all about your skill set and how you market yourself.


Too involved? Without regulation you'd have 50 really rich people and a lot of poor people. An unregulated free market will swing to the poles. And when the pole swings in the way of depression, it would cause revolution. The happy medium is the best option..it worked better with greater regulation.

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 11:47 AM
A lot of the stimulus is also coming in the way of tax cuts, though i dont think that works so much because people tend to save that money and not spend it.

Are you joking? Americans do many things, but saving money is not one of them and fewer and fewer Americans are doing it. Excess income predominantly goes toward debt reduction and spending.

Spider
01-26-2009, 11:47 AM
:rofl: yeah it is all Obama and Clintons fault ......... Poor Dubya did all he could .....Hilarious! some of you people are pretty ****ing stupid .......

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:47 AM
HE HASNT EVEN DONE ANYTHING YET!!!!

Not true. He's launched missles into Pakistan, created funding for over seas abortion, and closed Gitmo detention center(a year from now).

Hotrod
01-26-2009, 11:47 AM
Christ, you are naive. Go back to reading Bill Kristol or something.

Why because I call a spade a spade???

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:47 AM
That's what the socialist/Communists don't get. Even the models for their religion has failed and are going free market.

Oh jeez, 1) true communism has never been tried (though even as a socialist i know it could never work. There are plenty of socialist democracies in europe where the standard of living is quite high. The fact that we are the richest country in the world but cant give our citizens affordable healthcare is a joke

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:49 AM
Not true. He's launched missles into Pakistan, created funding for over seas abortion, and closed Gitmo detention center(a year from now).

No, i meant in the economics sector...obviously they have discussed the stimulus, but nothing has been passed. I've liked when he's done thus far with closing gitmo, looks like they will regulate emissions in the auto industry too...good stuff so far. But i do think a war in afghanistan will be throwing money into a black hole. I dont agree with that.

lifeafter elway
01-26-2009, 11:49 AM
Pretty widespread layoffs here too - I work for MediaNews - the company that owns the Denver Post.

So far 2 out of 8 in our department, but many more coming I am sure. In the last 6 months, probably 40 or so just at my paper.

good luck to everyone out there "on the bubble"

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:49 AM
Too involved? Without regulation you'd have 50 really rich people and a lot of poor people. An unregulated free market will swing to the poles. And when the pole swings in the way of depression, it would cause revolution. The happy medium is the best option..it worked better with greater regulation.

Nope because governemnt got involved with things it should keep it's nose out of is the problem.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:50 AM
Are you joking? Americans do many things, but saving money is not one of them and fewer and fewer Americans are doing it. Excess income predominantly goes toward debt reduction and spending.

We had this huge argument in another thread, but in times of economic crisis, americans spend less out of fear (plenty of stats to back this up). That stimulus check we all got? Most people just pocketed it. it did nothing (probably because it mainly went to people who dont need it)

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:51 AM
Nope because governemnt got involved with things it should keep it's nose out of is the problem.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one..per usual

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 11:52 AM
No, i meant in the economics sector...obviously they have discussed the stimulus, but nothing has been passed. I've liked when he's done thus far with closing gitmo, looks like they will regulate emissions in the auto industry too...good stuff so far. But i do think a war in afghanistan will be throwing money into a black hole. I dont agree with that.

The stimlus package? Have you read what's in that? Infrasture is an investment. Tennis courts, Golf courses, and baseball fields? Not-so-much. You can't spend your way out of debt. It's insane. Government just needs to stop for a while and get control of our currency. We are so far in the red that it's not even funny. All this stimlus package is going to do is work over a printing press.

WolfpackGuy
01-26-2009, 11:57 AM
The talking heads need to quit talking.
That would be a huge help.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 11:57 AM
The stimlus package? Have you read what's in that? Infrasture is an investment. Tennis cours, Gold course, and baseball fields? Not-so-much. You can't spend your way out of debt. It's insane. Government just needs to stop for a while and get control of our currency. We are so far in the red that it's not even funny. All this stimlus package is going to do is work over a printing press.

Ummm, you think its ALL going to golf courses? Dude, read it closer. And talk to Keynes about stimuluses not working? You know what happens if the government does nothing? Ask Herbert Hoover. Ask the Japanese government. Stimulus is only theory right now because its never REALLY been tried. The new deal was working slowly until roosevelt was convinced to balance the budget (why, i dont know). Doing nothing will result in lots more lost jobs. Rebuilding infrastucture, the energy grid, new energy (which i think is the next boom) is a smart investment. I agree earmarks should be left out, but i suppose thats the reality of government (though obama has claimed he'd like an earmarkless bill)

Spider
01-26-2009, 11:59 AM
LOL 2.8 million Jobs lost in 2008 alone on Bushs watch .... now all of the sudden Bush is out of office 50 K jobs loss and you people go ape **** , begging people to pray for you and your job ........ Hilarious! , I find it funny cause no matter what you cant fix stupid

Hotrod
01-26-2009, 11:59 AM
http://www.dontclickthis.whatingods.name/resist-cupcakes.gif

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 12:03 PM
The talking heads need to quit talking.
That would be a huge help.

agreed there as well.

Rohirrim
01-26-2009, 12:05 PM
We're ****ed.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 12:06 PM
We're ****ed.

Yeah, probably...well at least for a while

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 12:07 PM
LOL 2.8 million Jobs lost in 2008 alone on Bushs watch .... now all of the sudden Bush is out of office 50 K jobs loss and you people go ape **** , begging people to pray for you and your job ........ Hilarious! , I find it funny cause no matter what you cant fix stupid

Actually Bush took over during a recession as well. He was able to cycle out of it. Let's see how Obama does.

Spider
01-26-2009, 12:09 PM
Actually Bush took over during a recession as well. He was able to cycle out of it. Let's see how Obama does.

Nothing like this .......... this would be like repairing a leaky Faucet vs re plumbing an entire house

Archer81
01-26-2009, 12:10 PM
I knew everyone would blame him the minute he got in office...even if its a backhanded, sarcastic quote. He never claimed to be a cure all and i, personally, think its virtually impossible to see an upswing befoere trhe last quarter of 2010. (and thats if the stimulus works). But this bipartisan plan (full of tax cuts) wont work as well as it could.

More job losses and foreclosures to come! Free Market Rocks!


Cry louder, I am sure that will fix it.


:Broncos:

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 12:12 PM
Nothing like this .......... this would be like repairing a leaky Faucet vs re plumbing an entire house

exactly...bush took over during a slight economic downturn when there was a HUGE surplus. Obama has taken over during the worst economic crisis since the depression. and the "Bush Boom" is quite misleading. Sure, a bunch of rich people got richer, but median income pretty much stayed the same.

broncocalijohn
01-26-2009, 12:14 PM
Ummm, you think its ALL going to golf courses? Dude, read it closer. And talk to Keynes about stimuluses not working? You know what happens if the government does nothing? Ask Herbert Hoover. Ask the Japanese government. Stimulus is only theory right now because its never REALLY been tried. The new deal was working slowly until roosevelt was convinced to balance the budget (why, i dont know). Doing nothing will result in lots more lost jobs. Rebuilding infrastucture, the energy grid, new energy (which i think is the next boom) is a smart investment. I agree earmarks should be left out, but i suppose thats the reality of government (though obama has claimed he'd like an earmarkless bill)

Ask Roosevelt if spending money worked in the 30s. You have already admitted in the Politic forum that WW2 got us out of the depression. Unemployment stayed pretty much the same but we had huge debt. How can Hoover's plan be compared when he was out of office soon after the Crash of 29. The new Deal was working slowly? Is that supposed to be a positive after how much unemployment and debt was accumulating? The new deal was pretty much a failure and the good on it was we got federal projects done at 1930s prices instead of 1940s and early 50s prices. The stimulus package of today has a ton of earmarks that look similar to what the budget is any given year. Anything that will cost companies now like your emissions hype will be detrimental to those companies and to the economy. Best way for a stimulus plan to work is give back tax money to those paying into and do it with vouchers or at least no more than 50% can pay debts. The banks already screwed the first stimulus by hourding the money they received. We cant screw up the second time around. This is going to get uglier than today. Anyone younger than our great grandparents and grandparents havent learned why they are such cheapos. They went through some of the worst times since the South was crumpled in the Civil War. Now we might be going through the same scenario. Good luck!

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 12:15 PM
Nothing like this .......... this would be like repairing a leaky Faucet vs re plumbing an entire house
Yeah like right as the recession hit our country was attacked and got shut down for four days. That's easy, though. Every President has to deal with that.

Beantown Bronco
01-26-2009, 12:15 PM
We had this huge argument in another thread, but in times of economic crisis, americans spend less out of fear (plenty of stats to back this up). That stimulus check we all got? Most people just pocketed it. it did nothing (probably because it mainly went to people who dont need it)

Actually, that debate we had in the other thread conclusively showed the opposite.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 12:16 PM
Yeah like right as the recession hit our country was attacked and got shut down for four days. That's easy, though. Every President has to deal with that.

How anyone, even conservatives, continue to defend that man is beyond me.

Taco John
01-26-2009, 12:17 PM
More job losses and foreclosures to come! Free Market Rocks!



The free market is why anybody has a job in the first place.

It sure beats communism.

broncocalijohn
01-26-2009, 12:20 PM
Nothing like this .......... this would be like repairing a leaky Faucet vs re plumbing an entire house

I agree on this. Recessions can last a few quarters but this is widespread in every region and will last for years. This goes back to Clinton with the housing market, Greenspan being completely blind about it and speed up with Bush presidency. Add the supposeded regulators the last 10 years and you get this mess. Amazing the crash of 29 happened based on borrowing against their stock up to 90% (and why you can only borrow up to 1/2 of your value now), but loans were being given out at 100% and more of a purchase price on a home. In the 20s, we were talking thousands on average, where the housing blitz was based on no down and hundred of thousands of dollars borrowed. The sub prime market still has loans that havent matured to their skyrocket monthly payment just yet. That comes later this year. Enjoy!

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 12:21 PM
Ask Roosevelt if spending money worked in the 30s. You have already admitted in the Politic forum that WW2 got us out of the depression. Unemployment stayed pretty much the same but we had huge debt. How can Hoover's plan be compared when he was out of office soon after the Crash of 29. The new Deal was working slowly? Is that supposed to be a positive after how much unemployment and debt was accumulating? The new deal was pretty much a failure and the good on it was we got federal projects done at 1930s prices instead of 1940s and early 50s prices. The stimulus package of today has a ton of earmarks that look similar to what the budget is any given year. Anything that will cost companies now like your emissions hype will be detrimental to those companies and to the economy. Best way for a stimulus plan to work is give back tax money to those paying into and do it with vouchers or at least no more than 50% can pay debts. The banks already screwed the first stimulus by hourding the money they received. We cant screw up the second time around. This is going to get uglier than today. Anyone younger than our great grandparents and grandparents havent learned why they are such cheapos. They went through some of the worst times since the South was crumpled in the Civil War. Now we might be going through the same scenario. Good luck!

We've already, as you said, discussed the new deal ad nauseum, but to call it a failure is a bit nearsighted since its effects (especially infrastucture were still enjoyed later on in history). World War 2 was the stimulus we needed (a public works project!) but the new deal was ruined when they...gasp, stopped spending.

I'm not sure the answer of how a stimulus should work (ill leave that to economists...though im sure "biparitisan whatever will **** it up). But a stimulus is needed. Doing nothing will just create a bigger hole. Nationalizing the banks seems like a good start to ensure lending trust and to clear out bad debt in an effort to make them solvent..then sell em to new owners once they are. I agree with your take on the first stimulus. I'd like to see this second one really concentrate on spending in the public sector, especially nee energy which i believe is our next great economic frontier.

Dudeskey
01-26-2009, 12:21 PM
I'm still hoping the ANALysts are right, that the second half of this year will start looking up.

BroncoBuff
01-26-2009, 12:21 PM
Obama will fix everything.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves ... rather than foist unrealistic expectations on Obama, let's be real about what happened:
2000: George Bush inherited near record-low unemployment rates and the largest budget surplus in U.S history.

2008: Bush and the all-GOP Congress (all GOP 2001-2007) left us the largest budget deficit in U.S. history, an economic meltdown and the highest unemployment rates in 30 years.

So let's keep perspective about the catastrophic levels of incompetence the past eight years .... and not blithely expect Obama to fix things overnight. There is an incredible amount of damage here, and he needs time to work on it.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 12:23 PM
I'm still hoping the ANALysts are right, that the second half of this year will start looking up.

Probably not. Which analysts are even saing that....second half of 2010 maybe

BroncoLifer
01-26-2009, 12:25 PM
Ummm, you think its ALL going to golf courses? Dude, read it closer. And talk to Keynes about stimuluses not working? You know what happens if the government does nothing? Ask Herbert Hoover. Ask the Japanese government. Stimulus is only theory right now because its never REALLY been tried. The new deal was working slowly until roosevelt was convinced to balance the budget (why, i dont know). Doing nothing will result in lots more lost jobs. )

1.) Had Hoover done nothing the crisis would have solved itself -- just like all of the other sharp yet brief "Panics" of the 1800s and early 1900s. Instead, Hoover foolishly raised taxes in an effort to balance the budget, and, he and the Congress joined in a global trade war which made things very much worse.

2.) Outside of Marx, I can't think of a single economist who has suffered a worse decline in reputation of the last 50 years than Keynes. Quoting him is very 1950s or 60s.

3.) Roosevelt's New Deal prolonged and deepened the Great Depression, something that has become increasingly clear over time. Be happy, very happy, that the Supreme Court gutted his NRA -- unless of course you think that Soviet-style central planning is the way to go.

4.) Doing nothing will indeed cost more jobs. And then the business cycle will fairly quickly run its course and those jobs (and more) will be restored when the economy inevitably expands. Artificially propping up jobs is foolish in the long run because doing so unnaturally preserves costs and inefficiency to the detriment of the entire enterprise. So said an economist who time has shown knew what he was talking about, Adam Smith.

BroncoBuff
01-26-2009, 12:25 PM
Probably not. Which analysts are even saing that....second half of 2010 maybe

The analyst quoted in that article said it.

I'm not so optimistic, though ... the guy in the article called this a "Classic 'V' curve recession," but yesterday on Stephanopoulus, Nobel Laureate economist Paul Krugman said it's more of an 'L' curve recession ...

Dudeskey
01-26-2009, 12:27 PM
Probably not. Which analysts are even saing that....second half of 2010 maybe

Bloomberg mainly.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 12:43 PM
1.) Had Hoover done nothing the crisis would have solved itself -- just like all of the other sharp yet brief "Panics" of the 1800s and early 1900s. Instead, Hoover foolishly raised taxes in an effort to balance the budget, and, he and the Congress joined in a global trade war which made things very much worse.

2.) Outside of Marx, I can't think of a single economist who has suffered a worse decline in reputation of the last 50 years than Keynes. Quoting him is very 1950s or 60s.

3.) Roosevelt's New Deal prolonged and deepened the Great Depression, something that has become increasingly clear over time. Be happy, very happy, that the Supreme Court gutted his NRA -- unless of course you think that Soviet-style central planning is the way to go.

4.) Doing nothing will indeed cost more jobs. And then the business cycle will fairly quickly run its course and those jobs (and more) will be restored when the economy inevitably expands. Artificially propping up jobs is foolish in the long run because doing so unnaturally preserves costs and inefficiency to the detriment of the entire enterprise. So said an economist who time has shown knew what he was talking about, Adam Smith.


You must work for FOX news! That was straight out of the right wing conservative playbook!

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 12:44 PM
The analyst quoted in that article said it.

I'm not so optimistic, though ... the guy in the article called this a "Classic 'V' curve recession," but yesterday on Stephanopoulus, Nobel Laureate economist Paul Krugman said it's more of an 'L' curve recession ...

As W*GS knows, i bow to the king that is Krugman:)

WolfpackGuy
01-26-2009, 12:48 PM
So do we blame Bush or blame Clinton?
Most if not all administrations' policies aren't felt until the succeeding years.

BroncoBuff
01-26-2009, 12:48 PM
Yeah like right as the recession hit our country was attacked and got shut down for four days. That's easy, though. Every President has to deal with that.

Yes, we were headed into recession when he took office, and yes 9/11 happened. On his watch.

But that recession lifted, and in fact we had some sustained economic growth through the mid 00s, so blaming 9/11 and that recession for what we're experiencing now strains credulity to say the least. What we needed from Bush was a tough Reagan like check on Congressional spending ... like when Reagan slammed that budget down on the table. Instead we got rubber-stamp George who allowed the GOP Congress to spend us into economic oblivion.

I'm surprised there's anybody left defending Bush on substance ... the book is closed, and he was nothing less than a catastrophically awful president. I'm a Democrat, but I can easily concede that Carter was a bad president ... so I can't understand how Republicans defend this oaf ... you had both houses of Congess from 2001 to 2007. There's no Democrats in sight to blame.

BroncoLifer
01-26-2009, 12:49 PM
You must work for FOX news! That was straight out of the right wing conservative playbook!


Do you have any substantive rebuttal, or just that ad hominen?

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 12:53 PM
Do you have any substantive rebuttal, or just that ad hominen?

The reason for my curt response is that i've dicussed this till i'm blue in the face and don't feel like doing it again because, 1) its just the contrarian opinion, 2) You're not going to agree with it anyway, 3) i'm just gonna get worked up and I don't feel like it right now.

BroncoLifer
01-26-2009, 12:54 PM
The reason for my curt response is that i've dicussed this till i'm blue in the face and don't feel like doing it again because, 1) its just the contrarian opinion, 2) You're not going to agree with it anyway, 3) i'm just gonna get worked up and I don't feel like it right now.

Fair enough. Some other time maybe.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:01 PM
Fair enough. Some other time maybe.

Gladly!

Spider
01-26-2009, 01:06 PM
I agree on this. Recessions can last a few quarters but this is widespread in every region and will last for years. This goes back to Clinton with the housing market, Greenspan being completely blind about it and speed up with Bush presidency. Add the supposeded regulators the last 10 years and you get this mess. Amazing the crash of 29 happened based on borrowing against their stock up to 90% (and why you can only borrow up to 1/2 of your value now), but loans were being given out at 100% and more of a purchase price on a home. In the 20s, we were talking thousands on average, where the housing blitz was based on no down and hundred of thousands of dollars borrowed. The sub prime market still has loans that havent matured to their skyrocket monthly payment just yet. That comes later this year. Enjoy!

Hilarious! i knew it , it was all Clinton and Obama , while Brave little Dubya did what he could to weather the storm ........ lets just say you got a warped sense view of History .... Personaly I dont think you are stupid like some of these other fools, but you are scape goatin this mess ........

barryr
01-26-2009, 01:10 PM
Bush's fault. Oh yeah, doesn't work anymore.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:16 PM
Actually, that debate we had in the other thread conclusively showed the opposite.

Then you're remembering incorrectly. The only contrarian opinion was that they were "not spent yet"...which i think is a load of BS considering retail sales are down exponentially.

Pseudofool
01-26-2009, 01:19 PM
LOL Are you saying you want to stand in bread lines like in communist Russia? Hilarious! Even the Chinese are going free market. Get over it.The alternative being offered by the Repubs is what exactly? Tax cuts? Bwahahaha. I don't see how that is going to create a single job. The free market was propagated on credit, and now the credit-chickens have come home to roast. The 'free market' was always unsustainable it was a question of a how long.

BTW, the Chinese also spend trillions and trillions on infrastructure.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:21 PM
The alternative being offered by the Repubs is what exactly? Tax cuts? Bwahahaha. I don't see how that is going to create a single job. The free market was propagated on credit, and now the credit-chickens have come home to roast. The 'free market' was always unsustainable it was a question of a how long.

BTW, the Chinese also spend trillions and trillions on infrastructure.

Exactly. Not to mention the chinese support a population over a billion people. If you multiply the american population by 4, our landscape would look quite different as well. Why this never comes up when discussing china is a mystery.

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 01:21 PM
Let's not get ahead of ourselves ... rather than foist unrealistic expectations on Obama, let's be real about what happened:
2000: George Bush inherited near record-low unemployment rates and the largest budget surplus in U.S history.

2008: Bush and the all-GOP Congress (all GOP 2001-2007) left us the largest budget deficit in U.S. history, an economic meltdown and the highest unemployment rates in 30 years.

So let's keep perspective about the catastrophic levels of incompetence the past eight years .... and not blithely expect Obama to fix things overnight. There is an incredible amount of damage here, and he needs time to work on it.
Nothing like some good post-hoc

Not to mention the ol' "well Bush messed it up so bad it will take a reallllllly long time to fix it" myth.

Get ready to hear this for awhile, folks. When the socialist policies keep failing they'll be ringing this bell 'til the cows come home.

rugbythug
01-26-2009, 01:23 PM
This I don't get.

Big Companies are the Devil we need Regulation!!

So instead of having Big Companies with lots of power we trade that for a Big Gov't with lots of Power. How is that even remotely better? I get that People are scum. But it is the same people that are scum in the Gov't. At least with Big Companies they do not have the power of A) Taxes B) Emminent Domain. I can Avoid Wal-Mart I can not avoid Washington. This is why I will always defer to More Free Market and Less Regulation. True Monoplies not withstanding.

Beantown Bronco
01-26-2009, 01:23 PM
Then you're remembering incorrectly. The only contrarian opinion was that they were "not spent yet"...which i think is a load of BS considering retail sales are down exponentially.

No. I'm remembering right.

The article that was cited stated that "10-20 percent" of the stimulus checks were spent by consumers immediately. The other 80 percent was split between people paying down existing debt and some others choosing to either save it or wait a month or two before deciding what to do with it.

That does not support the argument that people "tended to save" their checks.

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 01:24 PM
The alternative being offered by the Repubs is what exactly? Tax cuts? Bwahahaha. I don't see how that is going to create a single job. The free market was propagated on credit, and now the credit-chickens have come home to roast. The 'free market' was always unsustainable it was a question of a how long.

BTW, the Chinese also spend trillions and trillions on infrastructure.

How about taking away all the government spending and getting out of peoples' way? Bush gave you guys what you wanted. He inflated the government more than Clinton. Every single branch of government grew under Bush. Tax cuts don't work if you don't reduce spending.

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 01:25 PM
No. I'm remembering right.

The article that was cited stated that "10-20 percent" of the stimulus checks were spent by consumers immediately. The other 80 percent was split between people paying down existing debt and some others choosing to either save it or wait a month or two before deciding what to do with it.

That does not support the argument that people "tended to save" their checks.

Studies have shown that people spend the same percentage of their income on merchandise even when their income changes.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:25 PM
Nothing like some good post-hoc

Not to mention the ol' "well Bush messed it up so bad it will take a reallllllly long time to fix it" myth.

Get ready to hear this for awhile, folks. When the socialist policies keep failing they'll be ringing this bell 'til the cows come home.

Dude, its TRUE! If McCain had been elected, we all would have said the same thing. This is not new news, we knew the economy was in the crapper and it would take a while to get out of it.

Bush messed it up, this is clear and most conservative pundits agree with this!!!!

And trust me, there isnt that much socialism goin on here.

rugbythug
01-26-2009, 01:25 PM
The alternative being offered by the Repubs is what exactly? Tax cuts? Bwahahaha. I don't see how that is going to create a single job. The free market was propagated on credit, and now the credit-chickens have come home to roast. The 'free market' was always unsustainable it was a question of a how long.

BTW, the Chinese also spend trillions and trillions on infrastructure.

You work for the Gov't. Otherwise you would see how tax cuts create jobs.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:27 PM
You work for the Gov't. Otherwise you would see how tax cuts create jobs.

Like all those jobs bush created through his?

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:29 PM
How about taking away all the government spending and getting out of peoples' way? Bush gave you guys what you wanted. He inflated the government more than Clinton. Every single branch of government grew under Bush. Tax cuts don't work if you don't reduce spending.

Trust me, bush didnt give us the government progressives want. Its insane to even suggest that.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:30 PM
No. I'm remembering right.

The article that was cited stated that "10-20 percent" of the stimulus checks were spent by consumers immediately. The other 80 percent was split between people paying down existing debt and some others choosing to either save it or wait a month or two before deciding what to do with it.

That does not support the argument that people "tended to save" their checks.

A month or two? Its been several and its shown no boost in the economy. Also, giving 600 bucks to people who make 70 grand was pointless. If you gave it all to poor people who need to spend it, perhaps it would have made a dent. I never thought this would ever work anyway.

rugbythug
01-26-2009, 01:30 PM
Like all those jobs bush created through his?

My company brought on another employee during that time period. More Profitability makes it easier to take on more risk.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:31 PM
My company brought on another employee during that time period. More Profitability makes it easier to take on more risk.

Whats your point

Kaylore
01-26-2009, 01:32 PM
If you gave it all to poor people who need to spend it, perhaps it would have made a dent.

Uhh

Archer81
01-26-2009, 01:34 PM
Like all those jobs bush created through his?


What fantasy land do you live in?


:Broncos:

Beantown Bronco
01-26-2009, 01:36 PM
A month or two? Its been several and its shown no boost in the economy. Also, giving 600 bucks to people who make 70 grand was pointless. If you gave it all to poor people who need to spend it, perhaps it would have made a dent. I never thought this would ever work anyway.

Trust me, I'm with you. The money by and large didn't go into retail. I just had a problem with the original person in that thread who cited the article, when they obviously didn't read it.

The author misleadingly said that 80% "saved" their checks. What wasn't apparent without reading the whole thing was that the 80% figure included those who spent their money on credit cards, gas for cars, and all the other personal utility bills that have doubled in the last year. And the 80% included folks that either hadn't decided what to do with the checks yet and those who hadn't received their checks yet (the article was written before two of the 8 IRS check mailings went out).

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:41 PM
What fantasy land do you live in?


:Broncos:

I was being sarcastic

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 01:42 PM
Trust me, I'm with you. The money by and large didn't go into retail. I just had a problem with the original person in that thread who cited the article, when they obviously didn't read it.

The author misleadingly said that 80% "saved" their checks. What wasn't apparent without reading the whole thing was that the 80% figure included those who spent their money on credit cards, gas for cars, and all the other personal utility bills that have doubled in the last year. And the 80% included folks that either hadn't decided what to do with the checks yet and those who hadn't received their checks yet (the article was written before two of the 8 IRS check mailings went out).

Ok, lets then just agree it doesnt work:)

montrose
01-26-2009, 01:48 PM
Update, the number is up to 68k laid off today.

BroncoBuff
01-26-2009, 02:08 PM
Get ready to hear this for awhile, folks. When the socialist policies keep failing they'll be ringing this bell 'til the cows come home.

"Get ready" ... really Khan? That's not being a good patriotc American imo. Judging our new president and insulting his policies after just 6 days is imo not being a good America. I certainly never did that to W.

Plus ... as we all know, Bush's policies failed already. Every one of them.

Bush had his chance, and 90% of Americans gave him his chance. But he failed miserably in every way. Now let's give the new guy a chance without insults like that.


Noto mention the ol' "well Bush messed it up so bad it will take a reallllllly long time to fix it" myth.

"Myth?" Which part of that is myth? Bush's presidency was a catastrophic failure on every concievable front, including terror, and the MYTH that he is "tough on terror." Here are the facts that prove Bush is WEAK on terror:

9/11 happened on Bush's watch = Bush is weak on terror

Hasn't caught bin-Laden in 7 years = Bush is weak on terror

Los Broncos
01-26-2009, 02:09 PM
Things at my company are no joke at the moment.

Things have tightened up a lot, had the day off today, needed a recharge.

BroncoBuff
01-26-2009, 02:17 PM
So do we blame Bush or blame Clinton?
Most if not all administrations' policies aren't felt until the succeeding years.

Most foreign policy, defense and budget deficits are judged right away, and Bush was a catastrophic failure in all these areas. Especially permitting 6 years of all-GOP Congress to take us from the largest budget SURPLUS in U.S. history to - in less than six years - the largest budget DEFICIT in U.S. history. That can be, and must be, judged immediately.

And I am not saying that as a partisan ... I loved when Ronald Reagan slammed down the budget on the table, and when he vetoed several budgets. Too bad W lacked the courage to be fiscally responsible. The massive budget deficits he rubber-stamped into law contribute a great deal to the current meltdfown.


The housing bubble though - that started well before Bush became president. He did mandate policies to help "every American" buy a home, and those policies led to a radically downturn in FHA mortgage standards (sub-prime, no income-verification mortgages that led to massive bundling of the exploding of these mortgages into securities that failed and caused the failure). But these programs are not Bush's fault. His policies of government incentives to encourage home ownership were nothing new. Clinton, Barney Frank and many Democrats encouraged home ownership, too.

rugbythug
01-26-2009, 02:20 PM
Whats your point

Mathematically:

\rho = \frac{m}{V}

Tombstone RJ
01-26-2009, 02:37 PM
The housing bubble though - that started well before Bush became president. He did mandate policies to help "every American" buy a home, and those policies led to a radically downturn in FHA mortgage standards (sub-prime, no income-verification mortgages that led to massive bundling of the exploding of these mortgages into securities that failed and caused the failure). But these programs are not Bush's fault. His policies of government incentives to encourage home ownership were nothing new. Clinton, Barney Frank and many Democrats encouraged home ownership, too.

This was a Clinton policy no? That is, forcing Fanny and Freddy to loan money to lower income, higher risk borrowers. Or, am I wrong on this?

SonOfLe-loLang
01-26-2009, 02:41 PM
This was a Clinton policy no? That is, forcing Fanny and Freddy to loan money to lower income, higher risk borrowers. Or, am I wrong on this?

Fanny and Freddie's to loan the money was a reaction to it already happening in the private sector...if i recall. Bad business practice all around

mhgaffney
01-26-2009, 03:03 PM
He (Obama) has done plenty of damage. His socialistic platform/agenda has investors/CEO's etc shaking their heads.

Duh...

Are you kidding me?

You can thank Wall Street for the "socialistic agenda." This was their idea -- not Obama's. Barack merely signed on to get the big campaign contributions from the banksters that allowed him to stage a massive TV propaganda effort -- and beat McCain. It was pure self interest on his part.

But the idea of bailing out Wall Street started with the banksters. This was socialism for the rich -- and meanwhile, bread lines and soup kitchens for the rest of us.

I for one spoke out against it. So did the American people -- but the US is now so corrupt that the people's will did not matter. We have descended into a swamp of corruption and evil.

The banksters merely tacked on enough pork to get sufficient votes to prevail in Congress. The bail out was the biggest giveaway in world history -- and the consequences are only now beginning to be felt and understood by larger numbers of people.

But you will not help the situation by pointing fingers at a boogie man. You need to understand who is responsible.

MHG

Hotrod
01-26-2009, 03:11 PM
Duh...

Are you kidding me?

You can thank Wall Street for the "socialistic agenda." This was their idea -- not Obama's. Barack merely signed on to get the big campaign contributions from the banksters that allowed him to stage a massive TV propaganda effort -- and beat McCain. It was pure self interest on his part.

But the idea of bailing out Wall Street started with the banksters. This was socialism for the rich -- and meanwhile, bread lines and soup kitchens for the rest of us.

I for one spoke out against it. So did the American people -- but the US is now so corrupt that the people's will did not matter. We have descended into a swamp of corruption and evil.

The banksters merely tacked on enough pork to get sufficient votes to prevail in Congress. The bail out was the biggest giveaway in world history -- and the consequences are only now beginning to be felt and understood by larger numbers of people.

But you will not help the situation by pointing fingers at a boogie man. You need to understand who is responsible.

MHG


You also spoke out in the WRP forum about how the Jews forced Bush to plant something called a "mini-nuke" into the twin towers.

Lets just get the facts out there for everyone..........mmmk

http://www.stickergiant.com/Merchant2/imgs/125/hss252_125.gif?code=125.gif

TUG
01-26-2009, 03:23 PM
Back on the topic of layoffs how many Maners are currently laid off?

NYBronco
01-26-2009, 03:30 PM
Back on the topic of layoffs how many Maners are currently laid off?

Chubbuck, Idaho? I'm a 94 graduate at ISU. Pocatello is a great place to live.

Not laid off...

watermock
01-26-2009, 03:49 PM
Unless a new form of energy is found, this country will go into a depression, along with the rest of the world.

The de-leveraging isn't even 50% done, and we're pringting money faster than ww2.

watermock
01-26-2009, 03:52 PM
.) Doing nothing will indeed cost more jobs. And then the business cycle will fairly quickly run its course and those jobs (and more) will be restored when the economy inevitably expands. Artificially propping up jobs is foolish in the long run because doing so unnaturally preserves costs and inefficiency to the detriment of the entire enterprise. So said an economist who time has shown knew what he was talking about, Adam Smith.




Stimulus worked because we wern't in debt, and needed infrastructure.

OBF1
01-26-2009, 11:02 PM
You go Obama :thumbs:

I think he is going to cure world hunger tomorrow

cutthemdown
01-27-2009, 01:43 AM
I know some pretty talented guys that got axed but it was mostly because they went for big money instead of a stable company. They will find jobs because they have good skills.

For the regular joes that have gotten laid off it's a good time to think about more education. Even a little something extra in your field could help. For instance an electrician could get his welders license. Or a computer guy could go get another certification etc. Secretaries can take more computer classes and so on and so on.

For people in bix for themselves it's a good time to cut costs everywhere you can and save as much as possible.

Hopefully Obama comes through on his pledge for a national service where young people can work for the good of the country and pay off college at same time. That's one hell of an idea I hope he stick with it.

Broncojef
01-27-2009, 05:54 AM
Hopefully Obama comes through on his pledge for a national service where young people can work for the good of the country and pay off college at same time. That's one hell of an idea I hope he stick with it.

We've had it since Vietnam its called the GI bill and millions have participated over the years in the program. That Obama wants some green army to serve under him and cut into the volunteer service we currently have is head scratching. We need less government programs and need to tighten our belts. When is the last time any of you had such bad money troubles you turned to your wife and said "what we really need to do is spend more money". Its ludacris, these morons will keep the bail outs coming, print more money and then wonder why we have hyper inflation and a worthless dollar in a few years.

Broncos_OTM
01-27-2009, 06:20 AM
Yes, we were headed into recession when he took office, and yes 9/11 happened. On his watch.

But that recession lifted, and in fact we had some sustained economic growth through the mid 00s, so blaming 9/11 and that recession for what we're experiencing now strains credulity to say the least. What we needed from Bush was a tough Reagan like check on Congressional spending ... like when Reagan slammed that budget down on the table. Instead we got rubber-stamp George who allowed the GOP Congress to spend us into economic oblivion.

I'm surprised there's anybody left defending Bush on substance ... the book is closed, and he was nothing less than a catastrophically awful president. I'm a Democrat, but I can easily concede that Carter was a bad president ... so I can't understand how Republicans defend this oaf ... you had both houses of Congess from 2001 to 2007. There's no Democrats in sight to blame.
That is the problem with americans. they defend their party way to much. I wish ross perot would have been president

Beantown Bronco
01-27-2009, 06:22 AM
Hopefully Obama comes through on his pledge for a national service where young people can work for the good of the country and pay off college at same time. That's one hell of an idea I hope he stick with it.

Anyone ever see the Robert Redford movie "Lions for Lambs"? They propose a similar system where you have a choice of services you'd "enlist" in for one full year in between your junior and senior years of high school. Two domestic options and one overseas. Pretty solid ideas IMO.

Broncos_OTM
01-27-2009, 06:27 AM
Duh...

Are you kidding me?

You can thank Wall Street for the "socialistic agenda." This was their idea -- not Obama's. Barack merely signed on to get the big campaign contributions from the banksters that allowed him to stage a massive TV propaganda effort -- and beat McCain. It was pure self interest on his part.

But the idea of bailing out Wall Street started with the banksters. This was socialism for the rich -- and meanwhile, bread lines and soup kitchens for the rest of us.

I for one spoke out against it. So did the American people -- but the US is now so corrupt that the people's will did not matter. We have descended into a swamp of corruption and evil.

The banksters merely tacked on enough pork to get sufficient votes to prevail in Congress. The bail out was the biggest giveaway in world history -- and the consequences are only now beginning to be felt and understood by larger numbers of people.

But you will not help the situation by pointing fingers at a boogie man. You need to understand who is responsible.

MHG

A friggin man

Broncojef
01-27-2009, 06:28 AM
Stimulus worked because we wern't in debt, and needed infrastructure.

Throughout the reelection process Obama ran on a campaign of higher taxes for big business and cutting the taxes of people not paying in a cent. At the same time we have been printing money, giving it to institutions that have failed and hoping the same people that got us into this mess can regulate and monitor us out of the troubles they caused. People are then outraged when to entreprenuers and men of industry cut their business models and lay people off. All the smart guys get it they see whats coming and this is only the beginning. What we really need to do is cut taxes on those trying to create jobs, get rid of the regulation and encourage investing in America through getting rid of capitol gains. Unfortunately the powers now in charge see spending our way out of this mess as a solution and thats just not reality.

Broncos_OTM
01-27-2009, 06:30 AM
"Get ready" ... really Khan? That's not being a good patriotc American imo. Judging our new president and insulting his policies after just 6 days is imo not being a good America. I certainly never did that to W.

Plus ... as we all know, Bush's policies failed already. Every one of them.

Bush had his chance, and 90% of Americans gave him his chance. But he failed miserably in every way. Now let's give the new guy a chance without insults like that.




"Myth?" Which part of that is myth? Bush's presidency was a catastrophic failure on every concievable front, including terror, and the MYTH that he is "tough on terror." Here are the facts that prove Bush is WEAK on terror:

9/11 happened on Bush's watch = Bush is weak on terror

Hasn't caught bin-Laden in 7 years = Bush is weak on terror
You think bush thought all this stuff up on his own. Blame the folks that are around bush.. blame congress. Cripes sake

Broncojef
01-27-2009, 06:30 AM
That is the problem with americans. they defend their party way to much. I wish ross perot would have been president

There are too many Democrats and Republicans and not enough Americans. Both parties are equally inept and corrupt IMO.

Garcia Bronco
01-27-2009, 07:12 AM
Ummm, you think its ALL going to golf courses? Dude, read it closer. And talk to Keynes about stimuluses not working? You know what happens if the government does nothing? Ask Herbert Hoover. Ask the Japanese government. Stimulus is only theory right now because its never REALLY been tried. The new deal was working slowly until roosevelt was convinced to balance the budget (why, i dont know). Doing nothing will result in lots more lost jobs. Rebuilding infrastucture, the energy grid, new energy (which i think is the next boom) is a smart investment. I agree earmarks should be left out, but i suppose thats the reality of government (though obama has claimed he'd like an earmarkless bill)

That it goes to SOME golf Course and SOME tennis courts is the problem. Like I said, I consider most infrastructure projects investments. We could get into the fact that the states contract out many of these jobs and sign backdoor deals with cronies, but that's another topic. If we continue to spend and increase taxes we'll be longer in the hole than if we just didn't spend at all.

TonyR
01-27-2009, 07:40 AM
There are too many Democrats and Republicans and not enough Americans. Both parties are equally inept and corrupt IMO.

Very true. This is not Clinton's mess or Bush's mess or Obama's mess, this is America's mess. This problem was not created specifically by Clinton's policies or Bush's policies and won't be worsened or solved specifically by Obama's policies. All you people pointing fingers need to stop because there is a lot of blame to go around. The current economic crisis is profound and the issue isn't Republicans vs. Democrats. Those of you who are ready to pile on Obama are beyond ridiculous.

TonyR
01-27-2009, 07:44 AM
I know some pretty talented guys that got axed but it was mostly because they went for big money instead of a stable company. They will find jobs because they have good skills.


In the long term this may be true, but in the short to medium term having skills may not do you much good. If you work in the financial services industry, for example, there is very little hiring going on. Even skilled people who have lost their jobs in many financial services jobs are going to be on the street for quite a while, and if they do find work it will very likely be at compensation levels well below what they were making previously. And I'm sure this is true in many industries, but since I work in the FSA that's what I'm most tuned in to. It's a gross oversimplification to assume that being skilled right now is going to keep you employed.

cutthemdown
01-27-2009, 07:49 AM
We've had it since Vietnam its called the GI bill and millions have participated over the years in the program. That Obama wants some green army to serve under him and cut into the volunteer service we currently have is head scratching. We need less government programs and need to tighten our belts. When is the last time any of you had such bad money troubles you turned to your wife and said "what we really need to do is spend more money". Its ludacris, these morons will keep the bail outs coming, print more money and then wonder why we have hyper inflation and a worthless dollar in a few years.

I think there is a big difference between the military and what Obama is proposing. Don't worry there will be plenty of boys that want to shoot and kill.

The national service would be shorter, maybe even only a yr, and only used to pay for part of college and do something good for Americans.

By educating Americans they will be more productive. It's investing in the future IMO and you can't go wrong.

cutthemdown
01-27-2009, 07:53 AM
In the long term this may be true, but in the short to medium term having skills may not do you much good. If you work in the financial services industry, for example, there is very little hiring going on. Even skilled people who have lost their jobs in many financial services jobs are going to be on the street for quite a while, and if they do find work it will very likely be at compensation levels well below what they were making previously. And I'm sure this is true in many industries, but since I work in the FSA that's what I'm most tuned in to. It's a gross oversimplification to assume that being skilled right now is going to keep you employed.

I do know some guys who were doing loans that are now out of work. They were smart though they knew they wouldn't be pulling down 100-120 grand a yr for long. They saved and both are now going back to school to be radiation therapist. I guess it takes 2 yrs and pays like 50-70 grand a yr. Tons of jobs also.

True if you are depending on getting a job in the financial services industry, and need that to live on, you are in trouble.

Life is all about planning and being smart.

Pseudofool
01-27-2009, 08:04 AM
Everything will be fine:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28869549/
http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/ArtAndPhoto-Fronts/TODAY/090126/090127-snuggies-hsmall-120a.widec.jpg

Beantown Bronco
01-27-2009, 08:12 AM
One of my friends (lawyer) who was recently laid off confirmed that for every opening currently available for lawyers in and around Boston, the hiring firm/company is receiving upwards of 50 resumes......and that's after they weed out those who are clearly unqualified.

Cito Pelon
01-27-2009, 08:13 AM
Free Market does Rock, it has served us pretty well over the past century. Some U.S. Companies have gotten to Fat and need to trim down and be more effiicient to be competitive. I was just laid off a few weeks ago, but have landed on my feet and am back doing my thing. Plenty of jobs out there, you just need to be willing and able to market yourself.

Actually, Federal intervention (regulation, New Deal, antitrust legislation, Keynesian economics) is what has "served us pretty well" over the past century.

Where we've gotten into trouble is deregulation, supply-side economics, and too much "Free market." What that does is introduce volatility into the economy.

Requiem
01-27-2009, 08:17 AM
This sort of news just breaks my heart. I'm lucky that I have a job that at least gets me enough money to pay my bills and bank in around 200 a month to save and there are hard working people who are qualified to work who are out there suffering. Heck, my mom was out of work for about 8 months -- and just got a job the other day and she ain't making much -- but at least she's able to get 36 hours or so a week.

My heartfelt sorry goes out to all those on this board who have lost their jobs or has had a family member lose theirs. I can only hope for the best in all of your cases.

I guess reading stuff like this makes me feel how lucky I am.

El Guapo
01-27-2009, 08:20 AM
hopey, hopey, change, change.

I'm on thin ice as well. . .

cutthemdown
01-27-2009, 08:22 AM
One of my friends (lawyer) who was recently laid off confirmed that for every opening currently available for lawyers in and around Boston, the hiring firm/company is receiving upwards of 50 resumes......and that's after they weed out those who are clearly unqualified.

yeah but it's the same 50 lawyers trying to get each job..... Besides who cares about lawyers? I mean i do but besides me.

Meck77
01-27-2009, 08:25 AM
One of my friends (lawyer) who was recently laid off confirmed that for every opening currently available for lawyers in and around Boston, the hiring firm/company is receiving upwards of 50 resumes......and that's after they weed out those who are clearly unqualified.

So there is a benefit to this recession. Ok ok I'm kidding. Lawyers are people too.

Cito Pelon
01-27-2009, 08:28 AM
well plenty of jobs out there sure, but its not as easy as you just made it sound (though that is fantastic that you got another job). A regulated free market can def work...but humans by nature are greedy scum, so ... well, you start getting some corruption when its not being watched.

Yes, a regulated free-market economy is the best course of action.

Beantown Bronco
01-27-2009, 08:30 AM
yeah but it's the same 50 lawyers trying to get each job..... Besides who cares about lawyers? I mean i do but besides me.

I'll go out on a limb and say that Dom and SoCal do. We seem to have a fairly significant representation of law firm folks here.

Since the late summer/early fall, lawyer layoffs in firms in and around Boston have been averaging about 100 or so per month. It's certainly not the "same 50."

WolfpackGuy
01-27-2009, 08:41 AM
"Greed is good" - Gordon Gekko

TonyR
01-27-2009, 08:47 AM
The volume of bank/brokerage employees on the street in the NYC area has to be a staggering number. Between Lehman, Bear Stearns, Citi, BofA, JPMChase, Merril, etc. we're talking thousands and thousands of layoffs, many of them very highly compensated positions. And now they're all competing for scarce employment in the same market. Can't be pretty, and it's going to get worse before it gets better. Unemployment is currently at a 16 year high of 7.2%, and many analysts think it could top 10%.

Garcia Bronco
01-27-2009, 08:48 AM
I hate me a lawyer, until I need one. :)

Dudeskey
01-27-2009, 10:36 AM
I hate me a lawyer, until I need one. :)

Man ain't that the truth

HooptyHoops
01-27-2009, 10:39 AM
Man ain't that the truth

and even if you need one, you still may hate hate them...been there, done that!!

TheDave
01-27-2009, 10:41 AM
My fear is there are going to be a lot more bloody mondays for the next few months...

Spider
01-27-2009, 10:43 AM
i have to love lawyers .. one got me out of a serious felony ......
well got it reduced down to a lesser felony ;D ......
but here is the odd part , people say you cant go to Canada with a felony ........Wrong you can you just have to write a letter asking for a hearing, pay 250.00 or more depending on the felony and all is forgiven .........

Cito Pelon
01-27-2009, 11:01 AM
Throughout the reelection process Obama ran on a campaign of higher taxes for big business and cutting the taxes of people not paying in a cent. At the same time we have been printing money, giving it to institutions that have failed and hoping the same people that got us into this mess can regulate and monitor us out of the troubles they caused. People are then outraged when to entreprenuers and men of industry cut their business models and lay people off. All the smart guys get it they see whats coming and this is only the beginning. What we really need to do is cut taxes on those trying to create jobs, get rid of the regulation and encourage investing in America through getting rid of capitol gains. Unfortunately the powers now in charge see spending our way out of this mess as a solution and thats just not reality.

Not true.

Cito Pelon
01-27-2009, 11:36 AM
I saw the former head of Lehman transferred title of his Florida mansion to his wife for $100. Trying to hide those assets. That's good in a way, that means they're scared of prosecution to recoup some of their assets. I'm all for prosecution.

TUG
01-27-2009, 03:31 PM
I have been layed off for about a month now, but in my industry it happens. We hope to have a busy spring once the weather turns but you never know especially with the dependence on finance for alot of our jobs. In the Boise area the news isn't as promising on the construction front but there are areas around like Salt Lake City and places in Wyoming that look to have an upswing in the next few weeks.

tonngo0
01-27-2009, 06:08 PM
I think you all gave too much credit and too much blame to the government. It is all started with coporate greeds. I think those CEO/officer should be prosicute. Too many white collar crimes go unpunish. If the guy mislead everyone and rake in the money and transfer all his assets to family member then the asset is safe. I think we should have a law that can go after those assets that family member brought with their hard earned money then you eliminate most of the crooks on wall street.

Right now, I don't think Bush's team or Obama's team know what to do with the problem. For Bush, last time he did a stimulus check and it worked, let try that again, well this time it failed. Obama now is throwing money into hiring more worker like back in the WWII era and hope it gets us out. I don't think it going to work either since the government does not work effience enough. I know quite a few that work for the Department of Transportation that waste time on a weekday and so they can come in on the weekend work and get paid for overtime. So a 1 day job end up being a 7 days job with 2 days of overtime. This is what Obama's need to clean up.

Unless Americans need to take accountablities for themselve otherwise nothing will change.

Broncos4tw
01-27-2009, 09:16 PM
The Senator who has an actual clue about what's going on, and why these bailouts are a 'bad idea' is Ron Paul. Pity he didn't run for President. Here he is trying to talk sense into the hardheaded economists at MSNBC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k92fTDReHg

Like the point he makes about the automotive industries. They say: You wouldn't bail them out?" He says that good ol' fashioned Capitalism is what is needed. Actual investors. The 'experts' said 'well no one is going to do that.' Who which he replies in a nutshell... why then if it's a bad investment, is our government throwing millions of dollars at them... with us as taxpayers footing the bill? It makes no sense.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-27-2009, 09:37 PM
The Senator who has an actual clue about what's going on, and why these bailouts are a 'bad idea' is Ron Paul. Pity he didn't run for President. Here he is trying to talk sense into the hardheaded economists at MSNBC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k92fTDReHg

Like the point he makes about the automotive industries. They say: You wouldn't bail them out?" He says that good ol' fashioned Capitalism is what is needed. Actual investors. The 'experts' said 'well no one is going to do that.' Who which he replies in a nutshell... why then if it's a bad investment, is our government throwing millions of dollars at them... with us as taxpayers footing the bill? It makes no sense.

Ugh and hear i thought I wouldnt have to listen to Paulin libertarian BS again:)