Obama Sides With Bush in Spy Case

[Garcia Bronco]

Obama Sides With Bush in Spy Case

By David Kravets January 22, 2009 | 4:32:47 PMCategories: Surveillance
The Obama administration fell in line with the Bush administration Thursday when it urged a federal judge to set aside a ruling in a closely watched spy case weighing whether a U.S. president may bypass Congress and establish a program of eavesdropping on Americans without warrants.

In a filing in San Francisco federal court, President Barack Obama adopted the same position as his predecessor. With just hours left in office, President George W. Bush late Monday asked U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker to stay enforcement of an important Jan. 5 ruling admitting key evidence into the case.

Thursday's filing by the Obama administration marked the first time it officially lodged a court document in the lawsuit asking the courts to rule on the constitutionality of the Bush administration's warrantless-eavesdropping program. The former president approved the wiretaps in the aftermath of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

"The Government's position remains that this case should be stayed," the Obama administration wrote (.pdf) in a filing that for the first time made clear the new president was on board with the Bush administration's reasoning in this case.

The government wants to appeal Walker's decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, a legal maneuver requiring Judge Walker's approval. A hearing in Walker's courtroom is set for Friday.

The legal brouhaha concerns Walker's decision to admit as evidence a classified document allegedly showing that two American lawyers for a now-defunct Saudi charity were electronically eavesdropped on without warrants by the Bush administration in 2004.

The lawyers — Wendell Belew and Asim Ghafoo — sued the Bush administration after the U.S. Treasury Department accidentally released the Top Secret memo to them. At one point, the courts had ordered the document, which has never been made public, returned and removed from the case.



The document's admission to the case is central for the two former lawyers of the Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation charity to acquire legal standing so they may challenge the constitutionality of the warrantless-eavesdropping program Bush publicly acknowledged in 2005.

The Friday hearing is needed, because disputes with pretrial decisions generally require the trial judge to permit an appeal.

The Obama administration is also siding with the former administration in its legal defense of July legislation that immunizes the nation's telecommunications companies from lawsuits accusing them of complicitity in Bush's eavesdropping program, according to testimony last week by incoming Attorney General Eric Holder.

That immunity legislation, which Obama voted for when he was a U.S. senator from Illinois, was included in a broader spy package that granted the government wide-ranging, warrantless eavesdropping powers on Americans' electronic communications.

A decision on the constitutionality of the immunity legislation is pending before Judge Walker in a separate case brought by the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2009/01/obama-sides-wit.html#previouspost

[barryr]

But it was wrong when Bush did it.

[El Guapo]

re

[cutthemdown]

I remember telling people that Obama wouldn't do anything to lessen the power of his office. Of course he wants to be able to eavesdrop on potential terrorists without a warrant. The ends justify the means when it comes to this saving American lives.

It will up to the CIA and the justice dept to make sure it's used within the spirit of Obamas message of tolerance and rights.

[Spider]

I still dont like it , I dont have a problem with eaves dropping on people over seas or people with Visas over here , but not American citizens

[spdirty]

good.

[Crushaholic]

I still dont like it , I dont have a problem with eaves dropping on people over seas or people with Visas over here , but not American citizens

The 9/11 hijackers supposedly were American citizens. You just never know who wants to do harm to other Americans...

[Spider]

The 9/11 hijackers supposedly were American citizens. You just never know who wants to do harm to other Americans...

No they had Visas , some of them had even expired ..... None of them became citizens .See this is what gets me , how people can forget , we already have laws to protect ourselfs , just not enforced ....why cause people forget ...... 19 people armed with Box cutters , everyone of them on a Visa ........so instead of enforcing Visa laws , we run out and make a bunch of new ones to make ourselfs feel better ...... ****ing pathetic

[kappys]

The great difficulty I always had with it was how the information is going to be used and if it would be admissible for cases other than terrorism or treason. I still don't know the answer but if information from warrantelss wire taps were restricted to court cases involving those two entities(and possibly RICO type cases) I wouldn't have a huge problem with it.

[Garcia Bronco]

The great difficulty I always had with it was how the information is going to be used and if it would be admissible for cases other than terrorism or treason. I still don't know the answer but if information from warrantelss wire taps were restricted to court cases involving those two entities(and possibly RICO type cases) I wouldn't have a huge problem with it.

The should just have a faster warrant process. One by which an officer can call a judge sitting in a call center(:)). I mean really, put their asses in a cubical with a headset. :)

[Dukes]

Amazing how your beliefs on a matter change when you find out the truth.

[BABronco]

its amazing what people will say to other people to try to convince them what they believe just to get into office

[rastaman]

So will conservatives still have the same attitude about the spy-surveillance issue should Obama spy and surveil his political opponents they Bush conducted the warrantless wire taps and spying?????

I'd personally like to see a return of the FISA courts and laws, regardless of how the President is residing in the WH.

[barryr]

So will conservatives still have the same attitude about the spy-surveillance issue should Obama spy and surveil his political opponents they Bush conducted the warrantless wire taps and spying?????

I'd personally like to see a return of the FISA courts and laws, regardless of how the President is residing in the WH.


Question is would you go along with Obama doing that?

[rastaman]

Question is would you go along with Obama doing that?

Absolutely not! The gov't shouldn't spy on any American citizen period. This is why its a slippery slope. Its unfortunate we the voters can't seem to come together to look out for our best interest regardless of party affiliation.

This country needs to return to the FISA Court Laws......plain and simple.

[barryr]

Absolutely not! The gov't shouldn't spy on any American citizen period. This is why its a slippery slope. Its unfortunate we the voters can't seem to come together to look out for our best interest regardless of party affiliation.

This country needs to return to the FISA Court Laws......plain and simple.


Political opponents or people who are communicating to those known to belong to terror groups? You really don't see a difference here?

[rastaman]

Political opponents or people who are communicating to those known to belong to terror groups? You really don't see a difference here?

Oh there's a difference here! The point is no sitting President should have the blanket power to spy and surveil its citizens just based on a hunch and with no mechanism to distinguish or oversight with what really is going on.

[Dukes]

Oh there's a difference here! The point is no sitting President should have the blanket power to spy and surveil its citizens just based on a hunch and with no mechanism to distinguish or oversight with what really is going on.

The intelligence community don't base their operations on a "hunch". They actually have facts and real intelligence to back their operations.

[barryr]

Oh there's a difference here! The point is no sitting President should have the blanket power to spy and surveil its citizens just based on a hunch and with no mechanism to distinguish or oversight with what really is going on.

On a hunch? If that's all our intelligence has in defending against terrorism, then we are in more trouble than I thought.

[rastaman]

On a hunch? If that's all our intelligence has in defending against terrorism, then we are in more trouble than I thought.

Point is we don't know today whether or not what type of orders Bush gave his intelligence agencies to spy on Americans of whom Bush felt were his political enemies or who were speaking out with dissent against his Admin.

Once again, re-establishing the FISA court will provide transparency.

[TDmvp]

The gov't shouldn't spy on any American citizen period.

Why ? , Just don't do anything illegal and you don't have much to worry about .
And even if you are doing things illegal don't worry about it unless it has to do with a bomb or something like that ...

[BABronco]

Why ? , Just don't do anything illegal and you don't have much to worry about .
And even if you are doing things illegal don't worry about it unless it has to do with a bomb or something like that ...

Its called invasion of privacy. Once you give your privacy away you have little to nothing left to lose.

[TDmvp]

Its called invasion of privacy. Once you give your privacy away you have little to nothing left to lose.




who cares that a computer scans phone calls looking for key words ...
Don't say Bomb , Jihad and attack on the phone over and over and you don't have anything to worry about ... It is a algorithm not a real person sitting there listening to everything we say .

Jeez it's not 1950 , stuff has to change to keep up with the times.
And if you consider this a invasion of privacy you are in for a shock cause it is only going to get worse. From cams on every corner on streets , to google street view , to everyone on the planet just about having a video cam with them at all times on their phone , to being able to stalk people down online and find everything from SS# , address and phone # .

Privacy is a illusion ....
really always has been ...

[Fedaykin]

But it was wrong when Bush did it.

No, it's still wrong.

Your arrogant presumption of how others would view is very telling of your complete inability to acknowledge that many people who support Obama do not see him as infallible.

[BABronco]

who cares that a computer scans phone calls looking for key words ...
Don't say Bomb , Jihad and attack on the phone over and over and you don't have anything to worry about ... It is a algorithm not a real person sitting there listening to everything we say .

Privacy is a illusion ....
really always has been ...

This is where it starts. Why allow a monster to be born when after too long that monster is outta control?

[Dukes]

Its called invasion of privacy. Once you give your privacy away you have little to nothing left to lose.

Is that any different than local, state and federal agencies placing video cameras every other block on public streets? Haven't heard anyone crying about that lately. No matter where you go someone is likely watching.

[BABronco]

Is that any different than local, state and federal agencies placing video cameras every other block on public streets? Haven't heard anyone crying about that lately. No matter where you go someone is likely watching.

I really hate that too. This is part of the reason crime in london has gone up.

[cutthemdown]

No, it's still wrong.

Your arrogant presumption of how others would view is very telling of your complete inability to acknowledge that many people who support Obama do not see him as infallible.

I told people Obama would still do this type of thing and most of the Obama supporters felt he wouldn't. When Bush did stuff like this people were up in arms saying he was a dictator and destroying the Constitution.

I support the wire taps for anyone who talks a lot overseas. I talk to my friend who works for a big American company in Singapore. If they want to listen go ahead we dont talk about crimes. We talk about his day, my day, when he's coming home to visit, how the wife is etc. Listen up if you want as long as you are doing it because you are trying to catch terrorists.

We need to appoint law enforcement who wont abuse the power, and have oversight to make sure they aren't.

[cutthemdown]

IMO you have an internal affairs that go over all the wire taps. If an agent is found to b abusing the wiretaps you fire him. People want to keep jobs so they won't do it. In other words you eavesdrop on the eavesdroppers.

I have faith we have enough good honest Americans, who love their country, to get this done right. Sure we will have abuse, there always is, the important thing is to have a mechanism in place to uncover abuse.

[cutthemdown]

Is that any different than local, state and federal agencies placing video cameras every other block on public streets? Haven't heard anyone crying about that lately. No matter where you go someone is likely watching.

I hate the red light cameras. IMO they don't cut down on accidents and are only for producing revenue.

[ElwayMD]

who cares that a computer scans phone calls looking for key words ...
Don't say Bomb , Jihad and attack on the phone over and over and you don't have anything to worry about ... It is a algorithm not a real person sitting there listening to everything we say .

Jeez it's not 1950 , stuff has to change to keep up with the times.
And if you consider this a invasion of privacy you are in for a shock cause it is only going to get worse. From cams on every corner on streets , to google street view , to everyone on the planet just about having a video cam with them at all times on their phone , to being able to stalk people down online and find everything from SS# , address and phone # .

Privacy is a illusion ....
really always has been ...


Very true...you walk down the street in any metropolitan area and you are more than likely being watched. You have a data card to get into your building at work and they are tracking your movements. We live in a world where everything we do can be monitored. People need to stop acting like the government is tuning into every phone call we make. The intelligence community first does investigations into who they should be targeting with tapping into phone conversations. They don't just do it "willy-nilly". Seems logical that we would want to track the correspondence of "persons of interest" especially when they are making a bunch of international phone calls to known terrorist nations.

[Dukes]

I hate the red light cameras. IMO they don't cut down on accidents and are only for producing revenue.

I'll have to look but I read somewhere that a study was done and found red light cameras actually cause a deficiency in ticket revenue. It's much easier for those cycle cops to catch speeders.

[rastaman]

Why ? , Just don't do anything illegal and you don't have much to worry about .
And even if you are doing things illegal don't worry about it unless it has to do with a bomb or something like that ...

You can't blindly assume that just b/c an Admin. claims a person or population are doing things illegally you automatically believe them. This is the reason the FISA court gives/gave an Admin or Bush Admin, the power to wire tap and surveil, however, the Bush Admin. would have had to comeback later and inform the FISA court exactly what happened. This way it keeps any requesting Administration honest with their request. Whats so hard about that!!!

[Bronco Bob]

Why ? , Just don't do anything illegal and you don't have much to worry about .


So you are fine with the police coming into your house on a random
basis without a warrant just to check around and make sure you
aren't doing anything illegal, because you would never do anything
illegal.


If not how is this all that much different?

[La Caspa Del Diablo]

This is tyranny. Don't let the government brain wash you into giving up your Constitutional rights in exchange for a false sense of security.

I believe the people should have the power and the means to overthrow their government. The Founding Fathers did it, why can't we?

I don't advocate or push for violence, but the people should have the right to form their own revolutionary militias if Big Brother gets out of hand. I don't want to revolt violently, but I want the option just in case.

[cutthemdown]

This is tyranny. Don't let the government brain wash you into giving up your Constitutional rights in exchange for a false sense of security.

I believe the people should have the power and the means to overthrow their government. The Founding Fathers did it, why can't we?

I don't advocate or push for violence, but the people should have the right to form their own revolutionary militias if Big Brother gets out of hand. I don't want to revolt violently, but I want the option just in case.

dude any revolt would be crushed before you could say George Washington.

There is no right to revolt in the constitution. Only way for a revolt to be legal is to win.

[La Caspa Del Diablo]

dude any revolt would be crushed before you could say George Washington.

No doubt. There's no way your message could get across to a large populace that would be needed to excute a successful revolt. It would be difficult to tell 10 people of your plan to revolt without one of them going to the Feds.

There is no right to revolt in the constitution. Only way for a revolt to be legal is to win.

And you can't win a revolt when the government strips you of your guns and monitors all of your telecommunication activities without warrants.

My fear is people will be stripped of so many of their liberties, they will be powerless. Rats in a cage. Who wants to live in a world where the government tracks your location every where you go?

[Meck77]

So it begins......

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4201/bushbamajj9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[TDmvp]

So it begins......

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4201/bushbamajj9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Now that is just spooky ... stop it . heheh ... Ha!
Hilarious!

[ElwayMD]

So it begins......

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4201/bushbamajj9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Good lord...they look too similar!

[The Lone Bolt]

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4201/bushbamajj9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Changification you can believe in!