PDA

View Full Version : Marcus Thomas


KillerBronco#76
01-23-2009, 11:22 PM
So it seems that no one around here believes that Marcus Thomas can grow into a role in the 3-4? Im just wondering the reasoning and oppinions on this... (god i hate spelling and grammer some words you just can't sound out.)

personaly i'v seen nothing but improvement and have been very impressed by him In fact i believe he can be a starter for years to come, he still hasn't reached his talents peak. Do you guys not see the same things i am seeing? And what do you think makes him a liability to our team?

Natedog24
01-23-2009, 11:24 PM
I would think that Thomas would make a solid 3-4 DE. Its just that 3-4 DEs are a whole heck of a lot easier to find then finding that big NT that is cornerstone for your entire 3-4 Defense.

Popps
01-23-2009, 11:25 PM
I think he and Robertson end up end candidates in a 3-4. Both are on the small side for DTs and are very athletic. Robertson can definitely penetrate and disrupt. I'm not sure about Thomas, but he seems to hold his own off the snap.

I'm actually very intrigued to see how it would work out if we found a quality NT.

Rock Chalk
01-23-2009, 11:26 PM
Our defense is going to suck again next year. Its going to suck worse if we in fact do switch to the 3-4 off the bat.

Add in the brutality of our schedule and we are in for a long year.

KillerBronco#76
01-23-2009, 11:28 PM
Wouldn't you want someone smaller for your 3-4 DE say around the 270-280 range who still had a little bit more quickness or are you saying he has the quickness at 320 to play the position making him a kind of unique player at the position. Correct me if i'm wrong but not many 3-4 DE are over the 300 pound mark i don't believe.

Punisher
01-23-2009, 11:29 PM
I like thommy In the 4-3 but I think the nose tackle postion is to much for him right now.

Rock Chalk
01-23-2009, 11:30 PM
Thomas was a penetrating DT at florida. He has been asked to play a different role in the NFL. First with Bates and then with Slownuts. Whether he can convert to a 3-4 DE remains to be seen, but its doubtful we go full tilte to a 3-4 this next season anyway. Now if Nolan allows his DTs to penetrate, Thomas could very well shine, but from everything I read its going to be more like "Wait till the guy gets to you, then tackle him if you can".

KillerBronco#76
01-23-2009, 11:32 PM
Our defense is going to suck again next year. Its going to suck worse if we in fact do switch to the 3-4 off the bat.

Add in the brutality of our schedule and we are in for a long year.

No offense intended, but I don't think that answered a single question i asked, I asked for objective oppinions on marcus thomas' ability translated to the 3-4 not whether our defense would suck or not. So please people keep these types of comments to yourself unless backed by factual information or an objective oppinion not a generalized one.

Not to pick on you but thats the type of response im trying to avoid and the type of response that has been slowing degrading the discussions on this site for the last several years.( I can't say i havn't been a part of it either.) But there was a time when people asked good questions and received well thought out answers on this site.

TheDave
01-23-2009, 11:38 PM
I have absolutely no idea if Thomas's skill set will translate into a 3-4 DE. As alec said, he came into the league as a penetrating DT out of a 4-3. Unfortunately i think he was way too inconsistent at the point of attack for me to say he could control 2 gaps as a "Stack and Shed" DE in our front 3.


I'd be willing to see if it works but i have no idea if it will.

KillerBronco#76
01-23-2009, 11:42 PM
Thomas was a penetrating DT at florida. He has been asked to play a different role in the NFL. First with Bates and then with Slownuts. Whether he can convert to a 3-4 DE remains to be seen, but its doubtful we go full tilte to a 3-4 this next season anyway. Now if Nolan allows his DTs to penetrate, Thomas could very well shine, but from everything I read its going to be more like "Wait till the guy gets to you, then tackle him if you can".

Thank you, like i said i didn't mean to start an argument with that last post. Posted it before i saw this. But can't change it because well it is a good example of what im not looking for.

KillerBronco#76
01-23-2009, 11:49 PM
Have you guys seen him getting blown off the ball often? We've been playing a 2 gap read and react with our d-line correct? Would that not translate to be similar to a 3-4 scheme? In the 3-4 it is the linebackers with the 2 gap responsibility isn't it?

at least thats what i remember from highschool and college ball never played in the 4-3 primarily but used it a decent amount out of a base 3-4 played DE. Seemed like alot more stunting in the 3-4 and more one gap responisbility for the ends. the nose just seemed like he had to hold his ground against the center and if he was a good enough NT, against the Double team.

Also our d-line didn't appear to be our weak spot last year. They actually seemed to hold their own pretty well. It seemed more like the Linebackers missing their fills than anything else... especialy on counters LBs overpursued like crazy. Do you guys agree with this assumption? (and most the time when we got to the quarterback wasn't it our DT's Causing the havok?)

I just don't remember watching our d-line this last year and saying wow we are just getting dominated the line of scrimmage, mabey dumerville a few times but overall i thought our d-line held the line very well.

Which i guess is part of why I am puzzled at why everyone is acting like our best d-lineman doesn't exist...

TheDave
01-24-2009, 12:06 AM
Have you guys seen him getting blown off the ball often? We've been playing a 2 gap read and react with our d-line correct? Would that not translate to be similar to a 3-4 scheme? In the 3-4 it is the linebackers with the 2 gap responsibility isn't it?

at least thats what i remember from highschool and college ball never played in the 4-3 primarily but used it a decent amount out of a base 3-4 played DE. Seemed like alot more stunting in the 3-4 and more one gap responisbility for the ends. the nose just seemed like he had to hold his ground against the center and if he was a good enough NT, against the Double team.

Also our d-line didn't appear to be our weak spot last year. They actually seemed to hold their own pretty well. It seemed more like the Linebackers missing their fills than anything else... especialy on counters LBs overpursued like crazy. Do you guys agree with this assumption? (and most the time when we got to the quarterback wasn't it our DT's Causing the havok?)

I just don't remember watching our d-line this last year and saying wow we are just getting dominated the line of scrimmage, mabey dumerville a few times but overall i thought our d-line held the line very well.

Which i guess is part of why I am puzzled at why everyone is acting like our best d-lineman doesn't exist...

I felt he was inconsistent at the point. One play he held his ground the next he was blown off the ball. Just too young and too inconsistent for me to have much confidence in his ability to play DE.

As for our DLine not being the major problem... Lets just say I completely disagree. Especially at DE...

chrisp
01-24-2009, 12:09 AM
3-4 DEs tend to be very similar physical types to 4-3 DTs so I don't think there's any issue with Thomas' physique - however I would say that most people on this board seem to be in agreement that he would probably make a decent 3-4 DE anyway, I don't see a lot of people suggesting that he isn't at least worth a try.

One of the key issues with the 3-4 is going to be gap assignments however. I believe that San Diego are considered to play their 3-4 with one-gap assignments more in line with the 4-3, so although they have Jamal Williams who is the classic NT size and shape, the role their d-linemen play is more of the penetrating style. Given that we've just acquired San Diego's D-line coach, it wouldn't surprise me to see us adopt a similar style, particularly if we have to look to the draft for a true NT - it takes these guys a while to get up to speed after all.

One further point is that although most true Nose Tackles are short and stout with a low centre of gravity (possibly around 6-2 or less, 320lbs + ?) you don't have to be that type to play the position - if a player has the instincts and smarts to handle the gap assignments effectively, and enough strength and athleticism overall, they can be a little lighter and still get the job done. I believe that when Pittsburgh last won the superbowl, they did it with Casey hampton injured, and his backup Chris Hoke who played all through the playoffs just tips the scales at around 305.

I know that shanny's committment to undersized players often bordered on the ridiculous (Elvis at NT?) but it still remains true that you can be undersized at a particular position and still play it well if you're good enough.

KillerBronco#76
01-24-2009, 12:16 AM
I felt he was inconsistent at the point. One play he held his ground the next he was blown off the ball. Just too young and too inconsistent for me to have much confidence in his ability to play DE.

As for our DLine not being the major problem... Lets just say I completely disagree. Especially at DE...

please don't just say you disagree, tell me why you disagree. who did you see play poorly Because i don't know if i was watching a different game than everyone else but to me it didn't seem the our d-line was obviously getting dominated.
I saw a lot of line backer and saftey over pursuing. The only one not guilty of that which saw was larsen although slower seemed to lack the ability to over pursue and just attacked and tried to over power at the point of attack. That actually seemed to improve our defense tremendously untill they took him out, then webster began to over pursue like crazy.
Barrett took terrible angles many times thinking he was faster than he was.

But Thomas especially at least when i watched him showed the most promise out of anyone on our defense.

I guess im wondering why a 320 Pound human being is considered undersized to play the position? Especially when teams like Dallas doesn't have a lineman that weighs 320, vince wilfork is 325, and casey hampton is 325... the ladder seems to play nose tackle pretty well for their teams

TheDave
01-24-2009, 12:28 AM
please don't just say you disagree, tell me why you disagree. who did you see play poorly Because i don't know if i was watching a different game than everyone else but to me it didn't seem the our d-line was obviously getting dominated.
I saw a lot of line backer and saftey over pursuing. The only one not guilty of that which saw was larsen although slower seemed to lack the ability to over pursue and just attacked and tried to over power at the point of attack. That actually seemed to improve our defense tremendously untill they took him out, then webster began to over pursue like crazy.
Barrett took terrible angles many times thinking he was faster than he was.

But Thomas especially at least when i watched him showed the most promise out of anyone on our defense.

I guess im wondering why a 320 Pound human being is considered undersized to play the position?

Linebackers and safeties were over pursuing because holes 3-4 yards wide were being opened up on a fairly regular basis. More times than not it was one of our DE's getting blocked and staying blocked... But Thomas suffered his share of maulings.

Our defense as a whole was terrible... But the Dline offered VERY little when asked to pass rush and even less when playing the run. You just can't leave a 1st year Safety to cover 10-12 feet of open ground against NFL running backs and not expect them to win every battle.

BroncoMan4ever
01-24-2009, 12:58 AM
I think he and Robertson end up end candidates in a 3-4. Both are on the small side for DTs and are very athletic. Robertson can definitely penetrate and disrupt. I'm not sure about Thomas, but he seems to hold his own off the snap.

I'm actually very intrigued to see how it would work out if we found a quality NT.

actually, i think Thomas could become an elite DE in a 3-4. his best attributes have always been his athleticism and ability to penetrate. the problem has been that in both Bates and SLowik's "schemes" they made his primary duty to hold up the play. He was there to clog the lanes and force plays to the outside for our LB's to make a play. Were he allowed to play to his strengths he has the potential to become a Warren Sapp type of DT.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-24-2009, 02:25 AM
Give Marcus some blasters and he'll do anything you want.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5348/cocainelinesonamirror11gq8.jpg

eddie mac
01-24-2009, 02:27 AM
Thomas was a penetrating DT at florida. He has been asked to play a different role in the NFL. First with Bates and then with Slownuts. Whether he can convert to a 3-4 DE remains to be seen, but its doubtful we go full tilte to a 3-4 this next season anyway. Now if Nolan allows his DTs to penetrate, Thomas could very well shine, but from everything I read its going to be more like "Wait till the guy gets to you, then tackle him if you can".

That's exactly Nolan's long-term system, 1 gap penetrating line. Whether he can find the 3 or more players to accomplish that along the line within 1 offseason I've no idea. He couldn't do it as HC of the 9ers over 4 seasons. Then again during that time he was focusing on all 3 aspects of the game and then some and was drafting to rebuild an offense as well with 9 of his 12 early picks from 2005-2007 being used on that side of the ball.

He's done all he can so far to help his cause by hiring the best 1 gap DL teacher in the NFL in Runnels. A lot also depends on who reaches UFA in March and how much Bowlen gives McDaniels to invest in the roster this offseason.

SpringStein
01-24-2009, 04:03 AM
Wouldn't you want someone smaller for your 3-4 DE say around the 270-280 range who still had a little bit more quickness or are you saying he has the quickness at 320 to play the position making him a kind of unique player at the position. Correct me if i'm wrong but not many 3-4 DE are over the 300 pound mark i don't believe.

Both of the Pats DEs, Warren and Seymour, are just over 300.

backup qb
01-24-2009, 07:24 AM
I think we have to try Thomas at DE if the switch to 3-4 does indeed happen. I don't think we have any choice at this point. Granted, this is pre-free agency and pre-draft, but with his potential and the price we paid to move up to get him, we have to continue to attempt to maximize his abilities. If he doesn't stand out this year, then it's probably time to cut bait. Same goes for Jarvis and Crowder. I would love to see what he could do with a real D-line around him.

Jesterhole
01-24-2009, 07:28 AM
(god i hate spelling and grammer some words you just can't sound out.)

Get Google toolbar. It fits right into your web browser, and comes with a spell check that searches through any web forms you have up. Very handy, I use it all the time for posting.

gyldenlove
01-25-2009, 12:28 PM
Have you guys seen him getting blown off the ball often? We've been playing a 2 gap read and react with our d-line correct? Would that not translate to be similar to a 3-4 scheme? In the 3-4 it is the linebackers with the 2 gap responsibility isn't it?

at least thats what i remember from highschool and college ball never played in the 4-3 primarily but used it a decent amount out of a base 3-4 played DE. Seemed like alot more stunting in the 3-4 and more one gap responisbility for the ends. the nose just seemed like he had to hold his ground against the center and if he was a good enough NT, against the Double team.

Also our d-line didn't appear to be our weak spot last year. They actually seemed to hold their own pretty well. It seemed more like the Linebackers missing their fills than anything else... especialy on counters LBs overpursued like crazy. Do you guys agree with this assumption? (and most the time when we got to the quarterback wasn't it our DT's Causing the havok?)

I just don't remember watching our d-line this last year and saying wow we are just getting dominated the line of scrimmage, mabey dumerville a few times but overall i thought our d-line held the line very well.

Which i guess is part of why I am puzzled at why everyone is acting like our best d-lineman doesn't exist...

We played 1-gap read and react with Slowick.

The main difference between the 4-3 1-gap DT that Thomas played this year and the 3-4 2-gap DE he will be playing if we adobt the same defense the Patriots use is that he will have to hold his ground and fight off blockers rather than trying to penetrate and disrupt.

Thomas has good power and good quickness and he often faced double teams on the inside this season, so being the DE shouldn't be much of a mental change for him, especially if he can consistently absorb double blocks.

The norm right now in 3-4 systems is to have DE's who play at between 300 and 315 lbs. You don't really need quick guys, you need guys who won't be moved out of the way.

The Chargers play a 1-gap system with their DEs (the 3 gaps) and the outside linebackers cover 5-gaps and beyond. The Patriots play a 2-gap system with the NT taking the 1-gaps (common) and the DEs taking the 3 and 5 gaps, leaving the OLBs to drop into coverage and play the wide run.

Paladin
01-25-2009, 12:43 PM
Get Google toolbar. It fits right into your web browser, and comes with a spell check that searches through any web forms you have up. Very handy, I use it all the time for posting.

word

ZONA
01-25-2009, 01:12 PM
Our defense is going to suck again next year. Its going to suck worse if we in fact do switch to the 3-4 off the bat.

Add in the brutality of our schedule and we are in for a long year.

How can you suck worse then what we did last year? You switch or you don't switch, there is none of this, hybrid crap and there is no, we'll work our way into it. You do something or you don't do something. Period.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-25-2009, 02:40 PM
Get Google toolbar. It fits right into your web browser, and comes with a spell check that searches through any web forms you have up. Very handy, I use it all the time for posting.

Will it auto-correct "Dumerville" into "Dumervil" ?

cmhargrove
01-25-2009, 02:44 PM
Whatever happens with the team, Marcus is not in danger. He is on a "cheap" rookie deal and he has tons of potential. He has worked two schemes, and continues to improve (although he is inconsistent). Marcus Thomas will be a part of the picture next year, it's just a matter of what position.

The cuts, free agency, and draft will let us all know what type of defense they are really building. Until we see that unfold, we will all be guessing what happens to Marcus.

fido
01-25-2009, 02:51 PM
How can you suck worse then what we did last year? You switch or you don't switch, there is none of this, hybrid crap and there is no, we'll work our way into it. You do something or you don't do something. Period.

truth

azbroncfan
01-25-2009, 05:43 PM
I don't know why Peterson and Thomas can't lock down the DE's in the 3-4 if we make the switch. Peterson is more of a one gap player but he has good size and athleticism also. Now who can we get for the big fat slob in the middle?

rastaman
01-25-2009, 05:54 PM
Give Marcus some blasters and he'll do anything you want.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5348/cocainelinesonamirror11gq8.jpg

Thats a pretty cheap shot dude!!!

rastaman
01-25-2009, 05:59 PM
I don't know why Peterson and Thomas can't lock down the DE's in the 3-4 if we make the switch. Peterson is more of a one gap player but he has good size and athleticism also. Now who can we get for the big fat slob in the middle?

Well lets start with the NFL 2009 draft for prospects at NOSE TACKLE:

1. B.J. Raji, Boston College
2. Peria Jerry, Ole Miss
3. Sen'Derrick Marks*, Auburn
4. Evander "Ziggy" Hood, Missouri
5. Ricky Jean-Francois*, LSU
6. Fili Moala, USC
7. Ron Brace, Boston College
8. Jeff owens, Georgia
9. Terrance Taylor, Michigan
10. Vance Walker, Georgia Tech
11. Darryl Richard, Georgia Tech
12. Jarron Gilbert, San Jose State
13. John Gill, Northwestern
14. Alex Magee, Purdue
15. Rashaad Jackson, Clemson
16. Roy Miller, Texas
17. Demonte' Bolden, Tennessee
18. Mitch King, Iowa
19. Clinton McDonald, Memphis
20. Dorell Scott, Clemson
21. Marlon Favorite, LSU
22. George Hypolite, Colorado
23. Jeremy Navarre, Maryland
24. Will Johnson, Michigan
25. David Lindquist, Illinois
26. Corvey Irvin, Georgia
27. Rashaad Duncan, Penn
28. Myron Pryor, Kentucky
29. Mika Kane, California
30. Pernnell Booth, Oregon State

BroncoBuff
01-25-2009, 06:11 PM
I think he and Robertson end up end candidates in a 3-4. Both are on the small side for DTs and are very athletic. Robertson can definitely penetrate and disrupt. I'm not sure about Thomas, but he seems to hold his own off the snap.

Robertson is a sure bet for cap casualty, or at best a complete restructuring.

I agree about Marcus Thomas, though ... his skills set makes him tailor made for a 3-4 DE, as are Kenny Peterson and Ebenezer Ekuban. DE and CB might be the only four spots on defense that don't see new starters this year.

azbroncfan
01-25-2009, 06:19 PM
Well lets start with the NFL 2009 draft for prospects at NOSE TACKLE:

1. B.J. Raji, Boston College
2. Peria Jerry, Ole Miss
3. Sen'Derrick Marks*, Auburn
4. Evander "Ziggy" Hood, Missouri
5. Ricky Jean-Francois*, LSU
6. Fili Moala, USC
7. Ron Brace, Boston College
8. Jeff owens, Georgia
9. Terrance Taylor, Michigan
10. Vance Walker, Georgia Tech
11. Darryl Richard, Georgia Tech
12. Jarron Gilbert, San Jose State
13. John Gill, Northwestern
14. Alex Magee, Purdue
15. Rashaad Jackson, Clemson
16. Roy Miller, Texas
17. Demonte' Bolden, Tennessee
18. Mitch King, Iowa
19. Clinton McDonald, Memphis
20. Dorell Scott, Clemson
21. Marlon Favorite, LSU
22. George Hypolite, Colorado
23. Jeremy Navarre, Maryland
24. Will Johnson, Michigan
25. David Lindquist, Illinois
26. Corvey Irvin, Georgia
27. Rashaad Duncan, Penn
28. Myron Pryor, Kentucky
29. Mika Kane, California
30. Pernnell Booth, Oregon State


Raji so far looks like the only one who could step in and play right away. None of the rest right now look like they will be much of a NT in a 3-4.

cmhargrove
01-25-2009, 06:46 PM
Raji so far looks like the only one who could step in and play right away. None of the rest right now look like they will be much of a NT in a 3-4.

Man, that's way too early to tell. We should almost be looking at weights to see who is big enough to plug the middle. I bet at least 8 of those guys have to be 320 plus, that's our first criteria.

I know some think he is an underachiever, but you might look at a guy like Terrence Taylor from Michigan who is 320, a powerlifting champ, and a wrestling star. He may have a lot more to learn about playing NT, but the body type and toughness is already there.

rastaman
01-25-2009, 06:51 PM
Man, that's way too early to tell. We should almost be looking at weights to see who is big enough to plug the middle. I bet at least 8 of those guys have to be 320 plus, that's our first criteria.

I know some think he is an underachiever, but you might look at a guy like Terrence Taylor from Michigan who is 320, a powerlifting champ, and a wrestling star. He may have a lot more to learn about playing NT, but the body type and toughness is already there.

Wrestling star IMHO is a key indicator in terms of toughness, strength, quickness, and athleticism, when grading out a potential NT.

Broncos_OTM
01-25-2009, 07:10 PM
Wrestling star IMHO is a key indicator in terms of toughness, strength, quickness, and athleticism, when grading out a potential NT.

Aggreed being a all star wrestler should really help him. Would help with leverage and keeping people off him. i dont think hell be a starter but he might be a valuable backup

Willynowei
01-25-2009, 07:18 PM
LOL who coined the term two gap 3-4 DE? Cause its spreading like wild fire.

Marcus Thomas is one of the top 3 assets of our defense. Thats not saying much, but he's young, he's athletic, he's got a plenty big frame, fast hands and he's developing nicely.

In a 3-4, he could lose 15 pounds and play left end fine, so could Kenny Peterson.

Willynowei
01-25-2009, 08:10 PM
Have you guys seen him getting blown off the ball often? We've been playing a 2 gap read and react with our d-line correct? Would that not translate to be similar to a 3-4 scheme? In the 3-4 it is the linebackers with the 2 gap responsibility isn't it?

at least thats what i remember from highschool and college ball never played in the 4-3 primarily but used it a decent amount out of a base 3-4 played DE. Seemed like alot more stunting in the 3-4 and more one gap responisbility for the ends. the nose just seemed like he had to hold his ground against the center and if he was a good enough NT, against the Double team.

Also our d-line didn't appear to be our weak spot last year. They actually seemed to hold their own pretty well. It seemed more like the Linebackers missing their fills than anything else... especialy on counters LBs overpursued like crazy. Do you guys agree with this assumption? (and most the time when we got to the quarterback wasn't it our DT's Causing the havok?)

I just don't remember watching our d-line this last year and saying wow we are just getting dominated the line of scrimmage, mabey dumerville a few times but overall i thought our d-line held the line very well.

Which i guess is part of why I am puzzled at why everyone is acting like our best d-lineman doesn't exist...

3-4 Nose Tackles in the NFL can't just hold at the point of attack because NFL lineman are too big and athletic that the impact of them reaching your linebackers is disasterous; as in automatic touchdowns. Therefore, a NFL nose tackle has to either draw the double team, or if he's not doubled, he has disrupt the blocking scheme at the point of attack. I'm also pretty sure that in the NFL the ends take a wider alignment so that they can take an outside rush when there is no blitz to their side.

We didn't play 2-gap techniques in the middle this year, most of the time we had our guys playing odd techniques (1,3,5) and attacked the corresponding gap.

Our D-tackles were fairly stout this year, especially in the 1st quarter. Our ends however, had a lot of trouble holding at the point of attack and our biggest issue all year was the inside linebacker position.

I honestly think we could've finished the season near the middle of the pack in defense if Spencer Larsen started all 16 games for us.

montrose
01-25-2009, 10:10 PM
I'm not sold on Marcus as a 3-4 DE. Prototypical 3-4 DE's are often heavy guys with taller frames and most importantly - long arms to keep OL off of the LBs. I'm not so sure Marcus can do that. I wonder if it at this point it would be more efficient to have Marcus beef up so he could be our #2 and nickel NT which is a very important position in the 3-4. Either way I expect he'll have a roll in our new defense.

dekers
01-26-2009, 02:04 AM
I'm not sold on Marcus as a 3-4 DE. Prototypical 3-4 DE's are often heavy guys with taller frames and most importantly - long arms to keep OL off of the LBs. I'm not so sure Marcus can do that. I wonder if it at this point it would be more efficient to have Marcus beef up so he could be our #2 and nickel NT which is a very important position in the 3-4. Either way I expect he'll have a roll in our new defense.

What about CARLTON POWELL ? where will he fit in a 3-4 DE ?

BroncoMan4ever
01-26-2009, 02:33 AM
What about CARLTON POWELL ? where will he fit in a 3-4 DE ?

i think he is the guy we have put on 20lbs and be our #2 NT. his run stuffing skills would be a great asset

barryr
01-26-2009, 07:26 AM
I also suspect Thomas will have at least a role on this defense, if not start. Robertson will likely be gone. Crowder might have a shot. Moss will have to convert to OLB, assuming they go with a 3-4 that is. Dumervil probably won't be around though. I don't think he can make it as an OLB unless he comes in only on passing downs and role is just to pass rush and that's it. I don't see him able to cover down field.

Mediator12
01-26-2009, 08:11 AM
I am not sure where people think the DT's were adequate this year at all. The DT's were not able to keep their gap assignments well enough to evaluate the LB's and Safety's IMHO. Someone said it earlier, the gaps the DT's surrendered were HUGE for the NFL level and making a fill that much harder for the LB or safety.

Also, the DT's were marginalized out of their gaps way too often. That means they were unable to redirect the POA and force the play into the teeth of the defensive playcall. They were unable to force the ballcarrier to their help, especially when they were in the 8 in the box setups. That is what surrendered the big plays all year long. They made mental and physical errors that led to blown assignments that compromised a meager back seven in run support. A lot of people credit this to overrrunning the play, which did happen a lot, but forget that sometimes that is where the play is supposed to forced by the DL.

Thomas was the best of the group when he was on task, but he was also the most inconsistent of the group which means more often than not he was not on task in his assignment. He did get a good amount of Double teams, but he was not able to anchor and force when he did. No one expects him to make that play when doubled, just do not let them take you completely out of the play which happened entirely too often.

As for the whole first quarter thing, most NFL teams are dominant in the first quarter stopping the run. The NFL YPC drops a yard and a half in the first quarter alone. It is the ability to maintain and even dominate the LOS that I look for in DL play. This DL never dominated more than 2 quarters of a game and that was against Tampa last year with Griese. That was the only game they played at an NFL average the whole year up front. The rest were well below average.

Again, its not the talent level I question, there is talent. It is the execution of assignments. The players were not able to execute in the run defense. They certainly did not come close to executing in the passing game either. I just want to see some players on the DL who will defeat their players on the LOS and redirect the play to the strength of the playcall more often. I think Coaching philosophy and scheme were major issues the last 2 years. I want to see how the group is addressed in the off season. That will go a long way to seeing how a new independent staff views the problems.

Garcia Bronco
01-26-2009, 08:20 AM
I get tired of all this discussion about what we have and what we don't for a 3-4. When Bill the Cheat took over New England they cut just about everybody on the team and signed street free agents and built through the draft. Expect the same here.

Mediator12
01-26-2009, 08:38 AM
I get tired of all this discussion about what we have and what we don't for a 3-4. When Bill the Cheat took over New England they cut just about everybody on the team and signed street free agents and built through the draft. Expect the same here.

MIA did a lot of the very same thing when they transitioned last year to the 3-4. A lot of players on the open market in FA may be better suited to 3-4 than 4-3 and that is why they are let go. Their projection's never panned out for the team that drafted them.

This is where old draft scouting reports and pro personnel evaluations will come into play. People who are not as adept at 4-3 play will be available on the FA market. However, the number of teams looking for those players has increased since last year and it will make it that much harder to acquire them this year than last.

Man-Goblin
01-26-2009, 08:41 AM
I think, as of now, Green Bay and Denver are the only two teams making the switch this off season...no?

Mediator12
01-26-2009, 08:47 AM
I think, as of now, Green Bay and Denver are the only two teams making the switch this off season...no?

Yeah, but that is plus 2 to the already growing number of teams looking in the past. MIA is not anywhere near done looking and all the others will be looking to improve their situations as well.

oubronco
01-26-2009, 09:01 AM
Have you guys seen him getting blown off the ball often? We've been playing a 2 gap read and react with our d-line correct? Would that not translate to be similar to a 3-4 scheme? In the 3-4 it is the linebackers with the 2 gap responsibility isn't it?

at least thats what i remember from highschool and college ball never played in the 4-3 primarily but used it a decent amount out of a base 3-4 played DE. Seemed like alot more stunting in the 3-4 and more one gap responisbility for the ends. the nose just seemed like he had to hold his ground against the center and if he was a good enough NT, against the Double team.

Also our d-line didn't appear to be our weak spot last year. They actually seemed to hold their own pretty well. It seemed more like the Linebackers missing their fills than anything else... especialy on counters LBs overpursued like crazy. Do you guys agree with this assumption? (and most the time when we got to the quarterback wasn't it our DT's Causing the havok?)

I just don't remember watching our d-line this last year and saying wow we are just getting dominated the line of scrimmage, mabey dumerville a few times but overall i thought our d-line held the line very well.

Which i guess is part of why I am puzzled at why everyone is acting like our best d-lineman doesn't exist...

are fuggin kidding the D-line has sucked for years and years