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View Full Version : We won't be switching to a 3-4


TheReverend
01-20-2009, 06:04 AM
It just doesn't make sense. We have enough holes on the defensive side of the ball without purposely creating more. Nolan's a smart guy who will recognize this and has extensive experience in a 4-3 system.

I DO see Denver potentially building a hybrid like Clancy Pendergast is doing in Arizona for this season and maybe the next while we try to amass the talent for a 3-4 in a year or two.

Reasons:
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4. Thomas and Robertson on the ends (which may very well stunt their actual talents), DJ and Wesley (which may also not work considering DJ's tendency to dance and Wesley's size), MAYBE Larsen and MAYBE Powell as a rotational end.

-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.

-Where do we find the NT? It sure as hell isn't Raji, and we'll need TWO quality players at that spot with NONE available through FA.

-FA: At best we could manage to purchase two quality 3-4 players. Potentially Chris Canty, Suggs, Scott, and Ray Lewis could hit the market, but at minimum two will probably be resigned. Even if we can land two, it doesn't go far enough towards the needs Denver would have in a 3-4. The money would be better spent on current O players extensions, OJ Atogwe and possibly a run at one of the premier DL.

cmhargrove
01-20-2009, 06:10 AM
It just doesn't make sense. We have enough holes on the defensive side of the ball without purposely creating more. Nolan's a smart guy who will recognize this and has extensive experience in a 4-3 system.

I DO see Denver potentially building a hybrid like Clancy Pendergast is doing in Arizona for this season and maybe the next while we try to amass the talent for a 3-4 in a year or two.

Reasons:
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4. Thomas and Robertson on the ends (which may very well stunt their actual talents), DJ and Wesley (which may also not work considering DJ's tendency to dance and Wesley's size), MAYBE Larsen and MAYBE Powell as a rotational end.

-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.

-Where do we find the NT? It sure as hell isn't Raji, and we'll need TWO quality players at that spot with NONE available through FA.

-FA: At best we could manage to purchase two quality 3-4 players. Potentially Chris Canty, Suggs, Scott, and Ray Lewis could hit the market, but at minimum two will probably be resigned. Even if we can land two, it doesn't go far enough towards the needs Denver would have in a 3-4. The money would be better spent on current O players extensions, OJ Atogwe and possibly a run at one of the premier DL.

I think the hybrid 4-3 might be the best road for us anyway. However, I hope the "talent evaluation" going on right now is still brutal. There are many of these guys that didn't deserve to be Broncos this year and they should be gone.

Find some huge DT's to train for a year or two, get a bona-fide pass rusher, get a huge DE sized SAM (like Suggs), and a Safety. This team can be fixed and the hybrid 4-3 is still a very flexible scheme.

I'm not as concerned with the scheme right now, I am really concerned about the talent level of the players. We could go a long way to fixing that this offseason.

cmhargrove
01-20-2009, 06:12 AM
I think the hybrid 4-3 might be the best road for us anyway. However, I hope the "talent evaluation" going on right now is still brutal. There are many of these guys that didn't deserve to be Broncos this year and they should be gone.

Find some huge DT's to train for a year or two, get a bona-fide pass rusher, get a huge DE sized SAM (like Suggs), and a Safety. This team can be fixed and the hybrid 4-3 is still a very flexible scheme.

I'm not as concerned with the scheme right now, I am really concerned about the talent level of the players. We could go a long way to fixing that this offseason.

I change that remark. The skill of the D-line sucked balls last year. I mean horrible. They didn't work well as a unit, and consistently lost their one on one battles.

Also, getting rid of the Slowik cushion will help us get off the field on third down, and help my blood pressure tremendously.

socalorado
01-20-2009, 06:13 AM
It just doesn't make sense. We have enough holes on the defensive side of the ball without purposely creating more. Nolan's a smart guy who will recognize this and has extensive experience in a 4-3 system.

I DO see Denver potentially building a hybrid like Clancy Pendergast is doing in Arizona for this season and maybe the next while we try to amass the talent for a 3-4 in a year or two.

Reasons:
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4. Thomas and Robertson on the ends (which may very well stunt their actual talents), DJ and Wesley (which may also not work considering DJ's tendency to dance and Wesley's size), MAYBE Larsen and MAYBE Powell as a rotational end.

-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.

-Where do we find the NT? It sure as hell isn't Raji, and we'll need TWO quality players at that spot with NONE available through FA.

-FA: At best we could manage to purchase two quality 3-4 players. Potentially Chris Canty, Suggs, Scott, and Ray Lewis could hit the market, but at minimum two will probably be resigned. Even if we can land two, it doesn't go far enough towards the needs Denver would have in a 3-4. The money would be better spent on current O players extensions, OJ Atogwe and possibly a run at one of the premier DL.

DEN could still run a hybrid 3-4/4-3 if they were aggressive in FA, and then traded back in the draft to aquire more picks. They could still stay at #12 and still do it.
Its possible. I think how often DEN is in the 3-4 will depend on how many quality players they aquire to run it the offseason.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 06:16 AM
I change that remark. The skill of the D-line sucked balls last year. I mean horrible. They didn't work well as a unit, and consistently lost their one on one battles.

Also, getting rid of the Slowik cushion will help us get off the field on third down, and help my blood pressure tremendously.

Sealing up Atogwe, taking a stud MLB in the first round, and then addressing depth at DE, and the secondary could go a LONG ways.

Pay for Atogwe. Extend Brandon and Kuper. See what you have left to at least test the waters with Peppers or Haynesworth.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 06:18 AM
DEN could still run a hybrid 3-4/4-3 if they were aggressive in FA, and then traded back in the draft to aquire more picks. They could still stay at #12 and still do it.
Its possible. I think how often DEN is in the 3-4 will depend on how many quality players they aquire to run it the offseason.

I just suggested they take a stab at a hybrid! Just not this past seasons "hybrid" where they're actually running both schemes with a bunch of half-retarded players.

Trading back with our top pick (only #12, I'm in favor of trading back after round one) is something I don't like this season, despite how deep the draft will be.

Man-Goblin
01-20-2009, 06:19 AM
I heard on the radio yesterday that Bill Parcells stuck with a 4-3 in Dallas for two whole seasons after taking the job at Dallas because it took that long to amass the personel needed to switch to the 3-4.

So, unless one subscribes to the "It can't be any worse!" philosophy, a switch in one season is probably unrealistic.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 06:25 AM
I heard on the radio yesterday that Bill Parcells stuck with a 4-3 in Dallas for two whole seasons after taking the job at Dallas because it took that long to amass the personel needed to switch to the 3-4.

So, unless one subscribes to the "It can't be any worse!" philosophy, a switch in one season is probably unrealistic.

It would be a defeatist attitude, and keep the weight on Jay's shoulders that everyone is currently crucifying him for.

mwill07
01-20-2009, 06:30 AM
...
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4.
...
-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.
...



-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 4-3.

-we have a gaping hole at safety regardless of what happens with the front 7.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 06:35 AM
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 4-3.

-we have a gaping hole at safety regardless of what happens with the front 7.

Agree, but you obviously missed the point... so I'll make it as clear as possible:

The Point: Shifting to a 3-4 WOULD require extra resources that could inhibit Denver from landing a good safety.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 06:44 AM
From the other thread, wanted to link this in fairness:

From PFWeekly

Jan. 15, 2009 By Dan Parr

Broncos' McDaniels, Nolan prepare for 3-4 shift on defense


With Mike Nolan locked in as head coach Josh McDaniels’ defensive coordinator, the Broncos will shift completely to a 3-4 defense next season after experimenting with it in a limited capacity in 2008. Although McDaniels, the former Patriots O-coordinator, isn’t experienced in coaching defense, he plans to be heavily involved in that side of things. Sources in Denver say it won’t be a case of Nolan serving as a defensive “head coach” while McDaniels, 32, stays out of his way. There are some questions about the feasibility of a quick transition from a 4-3 to 3-4 in Denver since a massive overhaul in personnel usually is necessitated by a change in schemes. In the Broncos’ case, though, regardless of scheme, sweeping changes were necessary well before McDaniels and Nolan came to town. Denver was ranked 29th in defense last season, and sources say a rebuilding effort is overdue.

socalorado
01-20-2009, 06:46 AM
I just suggested they take a stab at a hybrid! Just not this past seasons "hybrid" where they're actually running both schemes with a bunch of half-retarded players.
Agree. but if they were agressive in FA, it is possible to cure some of those issues.
Trading back with our top pick (only #12, I'm in favor of trading back after round one) is something I don't like this season, despite how deep the draft will be.

So if DEN traded back with PHIL for 2 #1s, it would be a bad thing?

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 06:51 AM
So if DEN traded back with PHIL for 2 #1s, it would be a bad thing?

Pre combine and workouts, I think Spikes, Cushing and Rey will all be top 15 picks. Trading back and getting an extra first, but having to settle for Laurinities (if HE'S even still available)... well I'm not in love with that idea.

ludo21
01-20-2009, 06:54 AM
spikes didnt come out....

I hope we acquire the right guys then switch to the 3-4.. I am homer enough to think that we have a bunch of good guys on D, we just need the right coaching and 1 more guy at each level.

socalorado
01-20-2009, 06:57 AM
Pre combine and workouts, I think Spikes, Cushing and Rey will all be top 15 picks. Trading back and getting an extra first, but having to settle for Laurinities (if HE'S even still available)... well I'm not in love with that idea.

Spikes is not coming out this year. Hes going back to FLA. I know, this really sucks. Now i am glad Dirty Sanchez is coming out, cause he will fill a spot ahead of #12, hopefully.......possibly.........maybe.

And i am not in love with trading back, but i think Cushing would be there, just outta needs of other teams.
Even if DEN didnt trade, back i think DEN is going to be very aggressive this offseason, just a hunch, i have no proof, but if the regime change is any indication that the team needs to get better, then Bowlen wont waste time in FA pissing and moaning over contract squabbles. I think if DEN wants Atogwe and Suggs, then they will just go get them, and make a splash in FA. Also, i think Nolan will have a big say in aquiring defensive talent from other teams, like SF or Balt.
Sorta like DEN has two coaches working towards fixing this issue.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 07:00 AM
Spikes is not coming out this year. Hes going back to FLA. I know, this really sucks. Now i am glad Dirty Sanchez is coming out, cause he will fill a spot ahead of #12, hopefully.......possibly.........maybe.

And i am not in love with trading back, but i think Cushing would be there, just outta needs of other teams.
Even if DEN didnt trade, back i think DEN is going to be very aggressive this offseason, just a hunch, i have no proof, but if the regime change is any indication that the team needs to get better, then Bowlen wont waste time in FA pissing and moaning over contract squabbles. I think if DEN wants Atogwe and Suggs, then they will just go get them, and make a splash in FA. Also, i think Nolan will have a big say in aquiring defensive talent from other teams, like SF or Balt.
Sorta like DEN has two coaches working towards fixing this issue.

Thanks to you and Ludo for the news on Spikes. I thought that was such a lock that there was no chance he'd stay like Mays. Well, that makes me sick and makes that #12 more valuable, imo.

Who knows though... over the next 3 months we'll have a LOT more risers and sliders.

Have you seen SF's FA list? Unless Singletary hits some cuts, it looks pretty devoid of talent.

lex
01-20-2009, 07:09 AM
McDaniels said he wanted to pick something and be consistent with it. And since Nolan and he have a background in the 3-4 more than the 4-3, a move makes sense.

socalorado
01-20-2009, 07:15 AM
Thanks to you and Ludo for the news on Spikes. I thought that was such a lock that there was no chance he'd stay like Mays. Well, that makes me sick and makes that #12 more valuable, imo.

Who knows though... over the next 3 months we'll have a LOT more risers and sliders.

Have you seen SF's FA list? Unless Singletary hits some cuts, it looks pretty devoid of talent.

Well, NT Ronald Fields could be a player that Nolan bring over for a 4th or 5th draft pick along with some talent from another team, like Chis Canty or Shaun Cody, and suddenly DEN has some players who can play the 3-4 for the D-line, and didnt require breaking the bank over.
You know, if DEN had one good NT, then the transition from there isnt so difficult.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 07:23 AM
Well, NT Ronald Fields could be a player that Nolan bring over for a 4th or 5th draft pick along with some talent from another team, like Chis Canty or Shaun Cody, and suddenly DEN has some players who can play the 3-4 for the D-line, and didnt require breaking the bank over.
You know, if DEN had one good NT, then the transition from there isnt so difficult.

And does this interfere with landing Otogwe? How closer are we to having a decent LB unit? Does this end up potentially costing us Brandon Marshall or Chris Kuper?

socalorado
01-20-2009, 07:34 AM
And does this interfere with landing Otogwe? How closer are we to having a decent LB unit? Does this end up potentially costing us Brandon Marshall or Chris Kuper?

I dont think these players who would come via a pick and a cheap FA contract, would hamper DEN with still having enough FA money to go after Atogwe and Suggs. I asked Eddie Mac for a official # as to how much DEN has to spend in FA, but so far it varies between 30 and 41 MIL.
I think the LBs get solved with what DEN has right now and 1 or 2 drafted players.
yeah i guess next years FAs could play into the picture.
Bowlen has an "Accounting Dept." right!?!

I think actually DEN could run a pretty solid hybrid with a solid draft and FA.
I dont think it will be top 10, but i was always just figuring they were going for a 14-15 ranking, this coming year, and get better, over the course of the next couple drafts. Just my thought on the matter.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 07:39 AM
I dont think these players who would come via a pick and a cheap FA contract, would hamper DEN with still having enough FA money to go after Atogwe and Suggs. I asked Eddie Mac for a official # as to how much DEN has to spend in FA, but so far it varies between 30 and 41 MIL.
I think the LBs get solved with what DEN has right now and 1 or 2 drafted players.
yeah i guess next years FAs could play into the picture.
Bowlen has an "Accounting Dept." right!?!

I think actually DEN could run a pretty solid hybrid with a solid draft and FA.
I dont think it will be top 10, but i was always just figuring they were going for a 14-15 ranking, this coming year, and get better, over the course of the next couple drafts. Just my thought on the matter.

So you want Canty and an experimental nose, AND Otogwe and Suggs, a chunk for the rookie pool, and think we'd still have the money to be able to give the deserved extensions to Brandon and Kuper?

socalorado
01-20-2009, 07:47 AM
So you want Canty and an experimental nose, AND Otogwe and Suggs, a chunk for the rookie pool, and think we'd still have the money to be able to give the deserved extensions to Brandon and Kuper?

1st, lets turn the frown upside down, em kay?
Quick question before i dig myself into this hole any further :rofl: , can DEN "franchise" Marshall next year? Just askin..

Also, what is the official FA amount of $$ DEN has to spend?

Broncoman13
01-20-2009, 07:56 AM
Sealing up Atogwe, taking a stud MLB in the first round, and then addressing depth at DE, and the secondary could go a LONG ways.

Pay for Atogwe. Extend Brandon and Kuper. See what you have left to at least test the waters with Peppers or Haynesworth.

This is probably the best bet. I haven't seen a lot of Raji so I don't know what the fuss is about. What don't you like about him?

Atogwe is key for us. Get somebody in at safety that can play the ball and it will help us tremendously. Get some guys that can bring some pressure and he'll be that much better. He has played quite well in St. Louis and they don't have much of a pass rush either. Seems like he is the real deal which leads me to wonder why the Rams would let him hit the open market?

alkemical
01-20-2009, 08:03 AM
say no to peppers

TonyR
01-20-2009, 08:04 AM
Everybody keeps talking about Suggs but I think the chances of landing him are remote. Most likely the Ravens let Ray Lewis go and keep the other two LB's, particularly in light of the story that the Cowboys are ready to make a run at him.

COWBOYS POISED TO MAKE A RUN AT RAY?
Posted by Mike Florio on January 20, 2009, 8:14 a.m. EST
We raised the possibility last year, when the brother of Ravens linebacker Ray Lewis signed a free-agent contract after the draft with the Dallas Cowboys.

Though Keon Lattimore didn’t stick in Texas, the fact remains that the Cowboys apparently want Lewis. (Lattimore, by the way, finished the 2008 season on the Jaguars’ practice squad.)

According to Mike Preston of the Baltimore Sun, there’s a rumor that the Cowboys are very interested in the veteran linebacker. The oddly-specific speculation is that the Cowboys are willing to give Lewis a three-year deal worth $27 million to $30 million, with $25 million guaranteed.

It would be a wise move for any team to chase Lewis. He is a natural leader, and he gets those around him to play with the same passion he possesses, regardless of injury or illness.

Since the Cowboys lack any real leadership from their current coaching staff, they need it wherever they can get it.

They’d get it from Lewis.

And we’d pay more money than the face value of a Super Bowl ticket to see the first “discussion” between Lewis and receiver Terrell Owens regarding the way things are now going to happen in Dallas.

That said, the Ravens surely won’t give up Lewis without a fight. They’ll be trying to sign him to a new deal, and they can always use the franchise tag to keep him in place.

But Lewis might be ready to move on. He had been clamoring for a new deal from time to time over the past four years; now that he has completed what the team had always described as his retirement deal, maybe he’ll want to retire from the Ravens and get paid big money by someone else.

Someone like the Cowboys.

Of course, it technically would be tampering for the Cowboys to contact Lewis directly before the start of the free agency period or to deliberately leak the intended contract offer in order to throw a wrench (or a knife) into the Ravens’ attempt to re-sign Lewis. But there’s a big difference between the stuff that technically is tampering and the stuff that actually results in a finding that tampering has occurred.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/20/cowboys-poised-to-make-a-run-at-ray/

Kaylore
01-20-2009, 08:13 AM
I think we will change. Nolan likes to work with what he has and he's not totally against 4-3. However I think they'll bite the bullet and got to a 3-4 even though our defense will still suck. The hope is they will get better as the year goes on and in a few years they will have added enough pieces to make it work. We'll need patience.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 08:13 AM
This is probably the best bet. I haven't seen a lot of Raji so I don't know what the fuss is about. What don't you like about him?

Atogwe is key for us. Get somebody in at safety that can play the ball and it will help us tremendously. Get some guys that can bring some pressure and he'll be that much better. He has played quite well in St. Louis and they don't have much of a pass rush either. Seems like he is the real deal which leads me to wonder why the Rams would let him hit the open market?

1. Raji is very big.
2. Raji is also relatively short and has tiny arms.

Point 1 looks good initially, but point 2 says he can't play the nose. Now he needs to prove he can be explosive enough to play UT and just be a big undertackle like Sed Ellis last year. He CAN take double teams, but he doesn't stand up particularly well against them at the college level, so I think he'll get rolled the **** up in the pros. We'll see. He's got opportunities to prove me wrong.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 08:16 AM
1st, lets turn the frown upside down, em kay?
Quick question before i dig myself into this hole any further :rofl: , can DEN "franchise" Marshall next year? Just askin..

Also, what is the official FA amount of $$ DEN has to spend?

If we go on that spending spree, I'd doubt it! You'd have to ask Eddie or Herc where they could project the cap space for next years team.

One good bit of news is unless a new CBA comes out, he'll still be stuck with Denver next season. If one DOES come out, making the tag feasible, it will probably be at least $13 million after new deals get done for players like Andre Johnson, maybe an extension for Calvin, and you can be SURE Anquan gets a premier contract THIS year. Most likely WITH arizona, but if not, somewhere else (cough, philly, cough)

Mediator12
01-20-2009, 08:16 AM
I am really surprised anyone thinks Otogwe will leave STL with Spagnuolo taking over. I would not be surprsed if they franchise him as Safety's have a low Cap hit for Franchise tag.

Another thing is the uncapped year after this one will make extending players extremely perilous if they are due to be UFA's in an uncapped year. FA will be very different than it has been unless they sign an extension for the CBA before it happens. A player like Peppers already asking out and not wanting to stay will hurt the current team from keeping other FA's unless they let him go.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 08:17 AM
I think we will change. Nolan likes to work with what he has and he's not totally against 4-3. However I think they'll bite the bullet and got to a 3-4 even though our defense will still suck. The hope is they will get better as the year goes on and in a few years they will have added enough pieces to make it work. We'll need patience.

Or is Nolan smart enough to patch this team together and start aquiring some versatile smart players that fit both, and then make the shift when it's more prudent?

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 08:18 AM
I am really surprised anyone thinks Otogwe will leave STL with Spagnuolo taking over. I would not be surprsed if they franchise him as Safety's have a low Cap hit for Franchise tag.

Another thing is the uncapped year after this one will make extending players extremely perilous if they are due to be UFA's in an uncapped year. FA will be very different than it has been unless they sign an extension for the CBA before it happens. A player like Peppers already asking out and not wanting to stay will hurt the current team from keeping other FA's unless they let him go.

I can dream. I like him more than Phillips and with Morris getting the job I think it's certain he stays in TB.

Mediator12
01-20-2009, 08:19 AM
Or is Nolan smart enough to patch this team together and start aquiring some versatile smart players that fit both, and then make the shift when it's more prudent?

Smart versatile Players in DEN ???

What is this you speak of ;D

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 08:21 AM
Smart versatile Players in DEN ???

What is this you speak of ;D

Are you asking for a DJ Williams rant? Don't make me do it!... again

MagicHef
01-20-2009, 08:24 AM
1. Raji is very big.
2. Raji is also relatively short and has tiny arms.

Point 1 looks good initially, but point 2 says he can't play the nose. Now he needs to prove he can be explosive enough to play UT and just be a big undertackle like Sed Ellis last year. He CAN take double teams, but he doesn't stand up particularly well against them at the college level, so I think he'll get rolled the **** up in the pros. We'll see. He's got opportunities to prove me wrong.

What do you think of Ron Brace?

montrose
01-20-2009, 08:54 AM
One thing to keep in mind about Nolan's 3-4 is that in Baltimore it was a hybrid 3-4. His DL had Kelly Gregg as NT, and Anthony Weaver and Marques Douglas at the DE spots. His OLB's were Peter Boulware and Adalius Thomas while his ILB's were Ray Lewis and Edgerton Hartwell.

Nolan would have one of his OLB's (generally Boulware) shift over to a standing 7 technique (outside the weakside OT) and occasionally have Boulware put his hand down into a 3 point stance. Thomas would play a position somewhat like an SLB in a 4-3 - playing the strong-side of the field, jamming TE's and trying to spill the running game to the inside. Lewis and Hartwell played the inside, with Hartwell (the slightly bigger player) playing the SILB spot to stuff the run while Lewis played WILB, giving angles to move sideline-to-sideline and run a lot of plays down while letting him make plays in the passing game (6 INT's I believe).

I think Nolan can play a similar system here as we begin transitioning our personnel. I think Marcus Thomas can play one of the DE spots with Crowder or Peterson (if resigned) possibly backing up the other but we'll probably need to find 2 DE's and 2 NT's. At the LB spots, I can see Doom and Moss competing at Boulware's old position. Elvis will need a lot of work on playing in space, but we can zone coverages to mask his weaknesses. At the other outside position (in this case Adalius Thomas), I could see Boss competing there although I'd expect someone to be brought in to compete at that spot. If he were able to stay healthy, I actually think Boss could be a decent fit in Nolan's scheme at SOLB. He's got above-average pass-coverage skills and has always been pretty good at keeping contain. The problem is he can't stay on the field.

At the inside spots, I think DJ would be a solid fit at the WILB (Lewis) position. He'll never be as natural at it as he was back at WLB in the 4-3 early this season, but he does have many of the skills necessary to play the position and with the right coaching and a solid NT - I'd expect him to be among league leaders in tackles again this year. The SILB (Hartwell) is a one I just don't see us currently having on our roster. I suppose Larsen would be the best fit to play the position however I'd hope we can find a bigger, physical MLB to play that spot like Rey Maualuga.

The guys I'm not sure about in this 3-4 would be Woodyard who I suppose could backup DJ at the WILB spot, Larsen who I'd see as the reserve at SILB and Winborn who Nolan cut from SF previously but if he were to stay I suppose he'd be a reserve SOLB.

Br0nc0Buster
01-20-2009, 09:02 AM
Oh we are switching to a 3-4, but until we acquire the right personal, we may run a hybrid.

But I expect our FO to start aquiring players via the draft and FA that fit a 3-4

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 09:23 AM
What do you think of Ron Brace?

I'm at least a month away from getting deeper. I've only started looking at potential linemen on both sides.

TonyR
01-20-2009, 09:35 AM
More competition for 3-4 players.

PACKERS TO MOVE TO A 3-4
Posted by Mike Florio on January 20, 2009, 11:50 a.m. EST
With defensive coordinator Dom Capers joining the Green Bay Packers, coach Mike McCarthy says that the team will be making the potentially radical change from a 4-3 alignment to the 3-4.

“It gives you the ability to utilize your personnel, the flexibility,” McCarthy said, per the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinal. “[It] doesn’t mean we won’t line up in a four-man front. We’ll move in and out of both four-man and three-man fronts.”

But that’s what most 3-4 teams do. On running downs, the defense uses three linemen and four linebackers. On passing downs, one of the linebackers lines up as a defensive end in a four-man front.

And so for the current defensive ends — Cullen Jenkins and Aaron Kampman — the question will be whether they become one of the “3″, or one of the “4″.

Since Kampman weight considerably less then Jenkins, Kampman is more likely to become a linebacker.

Typically, defensive ends in a 3-4 set become anonymous, since the primary job is to tie up offensive linemen so that the linebackers can get to the ball. But for Richard Seymour of the Patriots, few traditional defensive ends have become stars in a 3-4 front.

As to players who are in a two-point stance for traditional rushing downs and a three-point starting position on passing downs, the possibility of praise and Pro Bowls and big money awaits.

The other thing that the Packers will need right away is a big, fat nose tackle who can clog the middle of the line. Whether one of their current 4-3 tackles can make the same kind of transition that Shaun Rogers and Kris Jenkins successfully accomplished for the Browns and Jets, respectively, in 2008 remains to be seen.

From the standpoint of the Packers’ competition, a 3-4 alignment could give the other NFC North teams fits since they all use, and are accustomed to seeing, 4-3 formations. That said, the Packers will also have to develop a solid scout team defense or their offense will soon have trouble preparing to face their 4-3 foes.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/20/packers-to-move-to-a-3-4/

Drek
01-20-2009, 10:17 AM
A couple things:

1. I'm all for getting Atogwe, but for that to happen the Rams need to let him walk first. Tagging a safety isn't expensive so there is no guarantee they won't just do that or resign him long term.

2. Getting an NT isn't impossible work. Teams do it all the time. Might not be a stand out our first season in the 3-4 but it can and has been done. You can't name options as easily because it isn't a glamour position.

Gabe Watson is a RFA this year and has done a very good job against strong competition as a rotational NT. AZ might put a big tender on him or they might not. He was a 4th round pick, if they tender him at that level he's an easy steal in my opinion. If they tendered him at a 2nd rounder I'd probably still steal him, but just wait to officially sign the deal until after the draft.

Ron Fields is a UFA and was Nolan's DT this season in SF.

And there are a host of fringe types who have good size and youth on their side. Some coaching and we might find a decent NT out of that mix.

We can find an option for NT if we want to go 3-4.

Fedaykin
01-20-2009, 10:22 AM
We tried a hybrid scheme early this season. It was an unmitigated disaster. If they do choose this route they will be going down the same path of the last decade, which is not being committed to building a reputable defense but trying band aid solutions.

If they choose that route, please let them be more successful than Slowik...

bronco militia
01-20-2009, 10:27 AM
We tried a hybrid scheme early this season. It was an unmitigated disaster. If they do choose this route they will be going down the same path of the last decade, which is not being committed to building a reputable defense but trying band aid solutions.

If they choose that route, please let them be more successful than Slowik...

they ran a 'hybrid' 4-4 by putting a LB at SS against Carolina and got killed...they also ran the 3-4 against the Pats and got killed.


I think the hybrid defense we are talkign about is the version the Pats run.

cmhargrove
01-20-2009, 10:31 AM
We tried a hybrid scheme early this season. It was an unmitigated disaster. If they do choose this route they will be going down the same path of the last decade, which is not being committed to building a reputable defense but trying band aid solutions.

If they choose that route, please let them be more successful than Slowik...

There were three issues with our hybrid scheme this year.

1) the talent of the players themselves.
2) A nitwit DC that couldn't scheme his way out of a paper bag.
3) the talent of the players themselves.

A hybrid isn't necessarily a band-aid if you get the right players to begin with.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 10:33 AM
A couple things:

1. I'm all for getting Atogwe, but for that to happen the Rams need to let him walk first. Tagging a safety isn't expensive so there is no guarantee they won't just do that or resign him long term.

2. Getting an NT isn't impossible work. Teams do it all the time. Might not be a stand out our first season in the 3-4 but it can and has been done. You can't name options as easily because it isn't a glamour position.

Gabe Watson is a RFA this year and has done a very good job against strong competition as a rotational NT. AZ might put a big tender on him or they might not. He was a 4th round pick, if they tender him at that level he's an easy steal in my opinion. If they tendered him at a 2nd rounder I'd probably still steal him, but just wait to officially sign the deal until after the draft.

Ron Fields is a UFA and was Nolan's DT this season in SF.

And there are a host of fringe types who have good size and youth on their side. Some coaching and we might find a decent NT out of that mix.

We can find an option for NT if we want to go 3-4.

1. Med already brought this up.

2. If you think Otogwe is unattainable as an UFA, what makes you think Denver would have a shot at Watson in RFA? Especially when it's a 3rd year player with about a season and a half of starting experience and the only player above him on the depth chart is an 11 year vet? Watson is going nowhere unless Denver wants to get gouged in compensation.

As far as fields goes... fields Sucks. With a capital "S".

Pursuing a legitimate nose IS possible, like you say (although no one said it was impossible...) but it will definitely take away from resources that could be better spent addressing issues at safety and the DL before hitting MLB with the #12 pick.

HEAV
01-20-2009, 10:38 AM
I want the 3-4. More versatile with pressure, keeps the offense thinking.

Broncos ran a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 in 08, so I can see it being 3-4 all the way in 09.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 10:40 AM
I want the 3-4. More versatile with pressure, keeps the offense thinking.

Broncos ran a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 in 08, so I can see it being 3-4 all the way in 09.

I want the 3-4, too. I just don't think it's ready to happen.

no-pseudo-fan
01-20-2009, 10:49 AM
If we draft or acquire a huge DT then we are switching to the 3-4. I do not like Rey at 12, I think he is overrated. We might trade back, get an additional 2nd or 3rd.

montrose
01-20-2009, 10:49 AM
I want the 3-4, too. I just don't think it's ready to happen.

One might argue with our players the 4-3 isn't too ready to happen either...

no-pseudo-fan
01-20-2009, 10:52 AM
We need to turn into a tougher team on Defense. I thought Larsen brought that when he was in the game. If it is a 3-4, that is fine. Raji or Perry in the 1st, possibly trading down for the latter. Rashard Jennings in the 2nd, and Clay Matthews in the 3rd.

BroncoBuff
01-20-2009, 10:55 AM
Everybody keeps talking about Suggs but I think the chances of landing him are remote. Most likely the Ravens let Ray Lewis go and keep the other two LB's, particularly in light of the story that the Cowboys are ready to make a run at him.Yes, and Suggs would cost even more than Ray-Ray ... he would have to be our highest paid player. Same for Hayneworth. Personally, I prefer giving Elvis, Moss and even Crowder every chance to play that Jack-WLB in the 3-4 ... pay Oshiomoghu Atogwe or Jermaine Phillips or Will Allen, becase safeties demand less $$$ infree agency.

The important move to me is we draft this babyfaced-knucklehead in Round 1 ... he's the next Albert Haynseworth anyway: http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/449bb79ad5_bc08022008.jpg

By all accounts he destroyed the competition in the first Senior Bowl practices yesterday ...

socalorado
01-20-2009, 10:56 AM
1. Med already brought this up.

2. If you think Otogwe is unattainable as an UFA, what makes you think Denver would have a shot at Watson in RFA? Especially when it's a 3rd year player with about a season and a half of starting experience and the only player above him on the depth chart is an 11 year vet? Watson is going nowhere unless Denver wants to get gouged in compensation.
1st If STL tags OJ Atogwe, then CB Ron Bartell walks. Hes also a UFA, and was easily a bright spot on STLs defense. He had 57 tackles, 3 picks. 2nd to OJ, but hes a young, playmaking CB, who would get top $$ if he takes offers.
He has really impresesed on a otherwise crappy team that is going through a transition. So its still too early to tell. A quality CB is really hard to come by. I think even more so than a quality FS. But thats just my opnion on the matter.
As far as fields goes... fields Sucks. With a capital "S".
Hmm.

Pursuing a legitimate nose IS possible, like you say (although no one said it was impossible...) but it will definitely take away from resources that could be better spent addressing issues at safety and the DL before hitting MLB with the #12 pick.

I would rather go MLB or DE (Sintim) with #12, and go after Brace or Dorell Scott in the 2nd or 3rd.

BroncoBuff
01-20-2009, 11:03 AM
According to the Baltimore Sun, it looks like the Ravens are gonna fight the Cowboys to keep Ray-Ray, and they're gonna re-sign Suggs, too.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2771/91793975ig7.jpg
They might let Bart Scott go, but he's their 3-4 Will LB, so he's not really an option because that's the position DJ Williams projects to.


As far as safeties go, Will Allen or Sean Jones are options, too.

socalorado
01-20-2009, 11:06 AM
According to the Baltimore Sun, it looks like the Ravens are gonna fight the Cowboys to keep Ray-Ray, and they're gonna re-sign Suggs, too.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2771/91793975ig7.jpg
They might let Bart Scott go, but he's their 3-4 Will LB, so he's not really an option because that's the position DJ Williams projects to.


As far as safeties go, Will Allen or Sean Jones are options, too.

Balt cant keep all of those guys, so yeah, i see Scott walking. Dawan Landry is a RFA, so i dont know if they cant just tender an offer. They might just let Dawan go, considering that Leonard played as well as he did.

BroncoBuff
01-20-2009, 11:12 AM
I thought about Dawan, but we'd have to give up picks for him. Plus his brother will always overshadow him. I really wanted Laron in that draft, but hey - Jarvis is cool, too ... :oyvey:


I was among the first on the Atogwe bandwagon ... although Will Allen or Jermaine Phillips - both of Tampa and both UFAs - would be good too. Or maybe Sean Jones. Jermaine will demand more than his true value, though.

BroncoBuff
01-20-2009, 11:14 AM
http://multimedia.heraldinteractive.com/images/449bb79ad5_bc08022008.jpg

This is the guy ... let's start getting used to him now. He has the run-stuffing skill or Haynesworth, and the penetrating quickness (potential) of Warren Sapp. He might be a Top 10 pick, but I'm hoping we move up somehow to get him.

eddie mac
01-20-2009, 11:21 AM
I would rather go MLB or DE (Sintim) with #12, and go after Brace or Dorell Scott in the 2nd or 3rd.

If we draft him in the first round I'll need a new television. Same goes for that overrated USC (Ali Highsmith clone) dancing MLB.

montrose
01-20-2009, 11:23 AM
Balt cant keep all of those guys, so yeah, i see Scott walking. Dawan Landry is a RFA, so i dont know if they cant just tender an offer. They might just let Dawan go, considering that Leonard played as well as he did.

Baltimore is so good and drafting and developing defensive talent, they've been able to let guys go and bring in new ones without missing a beat.

alkemical
01-20-2009, 11:29 AM
Baltimore is so good and drafting and developing defensive talent, they've been able to let guys go and bring in new ones without missing a beat.

Yep, they had anthony weaver, then it was adalius thomas, boulware, etc.

no-pseudo-fan
01-20-2009, 11:38 AM
Baltimore is so good and drafting and developing defensive talent, they've been able to let guys go and bring in new ones without missing a beat.

maybe it is the system. Our RB's look great in our system, but when they move on, not so hot. maybe we should look at what they are doing to get these guys.

DivineLegion
01-20-2009, 11:39 AM
The Dolphins made a switch to the 3-4 in one year by landing Jason Ferguson in FA.

alkemical
01-20-2009, 11:40 AM
maybe it is the system. Our RB's look great in our system, but when they move on, not so hot. maybe we should look at what they are doing to get these guys.

Some of it the system, the other part is they draft and develop players. They made some good FA signings too. Mason, Rolle, etc.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 11:41 AM
I would rather go MLB or DE (Sintim) with #12, and go after Brace or Dorell Scott in the 2nd or 3rd.

That's a good plan all the way around.

socalorado
01-20-2009, 11:41 AM
If we draft him in the first round I'll need a new television. Same goes for that overrated USC (Ali Highsmith clone) dancing MLB.

Poor guy.....
Hey, hows this look to you before the draft? And how would you guys add in you drafted players to complete the line-up?
Lets say hypothetcally this is where DEN is at prior to the draft.


WOLB: DJ Williams
ILB: Bart Scott
ILB: Spencer Larsen
SOLB: Jarvis Moss/Elvis Dumervil (Whoever wins the TC battle)
Backups: Wesley Woodyard at WOLB
CB: Champ Bailey
SS: Josh Barrett
FS: OJ Atogewe or James Sanders (humor me)
CB: Dre Bly

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 11:43 AM
According to the Baltimore Sun, it looks like the Ravens are gonna fight the Cowboys to keep Ray-Ray, and they're gonna re-sign Suggs, too.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2771/91793975ig7.jpg
They might let Bart Scott go, but he's their 3-4 Will LB, so he's not really an option because that's the position DJ Williams projects to.


As far as safeties go, Will Allen or Sean Jones are options, too.

Scott will leave.

Suggs WILL be the first priority. He had two sacks against Pitt with only one functional arm. That's a man. Ray is talking to try and leverage for money, but he IS the Ravens. He'd never Brett Favre them.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 11:45 AM
Yep, they had anthony weaver, then it was adalius thomas, boulware, etc.

Part of it is the system and coaching, but the biggest part is that Balt has maintained a core of massively talented players, and one in particular that also demands excellence on every play and even every practice snap.

mr007
01-20-2009, 11:46 AM
Poor guy.....
Hey, hows this look to you before the draft? And how would you guys add in you drafted players to complete the line-up?
Lets say hypothetcally this is where DEN is at prior to the draft.


WOLB: DJ Williams
ILB: Bart Scott
ILB: Spencer Larsen
SOLB: Jarvis Moss/Elvis Dumervil (Whoever wins the TC battle)
Backups: Wesley Woodyard at WOLB
CB: Champ Bailey
SS: Josh Barrett
FS: OJ Atogewe or James Sanders (humor me)
CB: Dre Bly

How in the hell are Jarvis Moss or Dumervil going to be covering Tight Ends?

DJ needs to be WILB, we draft SILB, see if Dumervil or Moss can somehow handle WOLB (it'd be awesome if WW could put on some weight and compete). Keep Boss at SOLB and bring in someone from the draft to compete.

I agree on picking up a safety in FA and who the hell knows about the dline.

DivineLegion
01-20-2009, 11:46 AM
Poor guy.....
Hey, hows this look to you before the draft? And how would you guys add in you drafted players to complete the line-up?
Lets say hypothetcally this is where DEN is at prior to the draft.


WOLB: DJ Williams
ILB: Bart Scott
ILB: Spencer Larsen
SOLB: Jarvis Moss/Elvis Dumervil (Whoever wins the TC battle)
Backups: Wesley Woodyard at WOLB
CB: Champ Bailey
SS: Josh Barrett
FS: OJ Atogewe or James Sanders (humor me)
CB: Dre Bly

Dude Atogewe isent going anywhere. Spagnulo needs safteys to run Jim Johnsons Defense and Atogewe is to good to let walk.

alkemical
01-20-2009, 11:47 AM
Part of it is the system and coaching, but the biggest part is that Balt has maintained a core of massively talented players, and one in particular that also demands excellence on every play and even every practice snap.

Oh i know (see above). Talent always is the bottom line. You can come up with so many schemes or systems. But you still need the horses to run it.

montrose
01-20-2009, 11:49 AM
Yep, they had anthony weaver, then it was adalius thomas, boulware, etc.

Those aren't exact comparisons. Since their move to the 3-4 in 2003 under Nolan: Suggs took over for Boulware; Jarrett Johnson took over for Adalus Thomas, Bart Scott took over Edgerton Hartwell and Jim Leonard replaced Dawan Landry who took over for Will Demps. They've had some moves on the DL as well that went from Weaver and Marques Douglas to Johnson and Pryce until they got Douglas back this year.

maybe it is the system. Our RB's look great in our system, but when they move on, not so hot. maybe we should look at what they are doing to get these guys.

A lot of it is the system but more of it is their positional coaching. Ozzie Newsome's philosophy is that he looks for athletes that his coaches can mold into their type of defensive player. They had a backup TE playing OLB last week, that's just one example.

DJ needs to be WILB, we draft MILB, see if Dumervil or Moss can somehow handle WOLB (it'd be awesome if WW could put on some weight and compete). Keep Boss at SOLB and bring in someone from the draft to compete.


Based on my time watching Nolan's defenses, this is a very possible scenario. I can see Doom and Moss competing at the WOLB spot with Boss on the SOLB spot (assuming he's not hurt which is a huge assumption). DJ is a good fit for the WILB position but we'll need more of a thumper at the SILB spot.

alkemical
01-20-2009, 11:56 AM
Those aren't exact comparisons. Since their move to the 3-4 in 2003 under Nolan: Suggs took over for Boulware; Jarrett Johnson took over for Adalus Thomas, Bart Scott took over Edgerton Hartwell and Jim Leonard replaced Dawan Landry who took over for Will Demps. They've had some moves on the DL as well that went from Weaver and Marques Douglas to Johnson and Pryce until they got Douglas back this year.



A lot of it is the system but more of it is their positional coaching. Ozzie Newsome's philosophy is that he looks for athletes that his coaches can mold into their type of defensive player. They had a backup TE playing OLB last week, that's just one example.



Based on my time watching Nolan's defenses, this is a very possible scenario. I can see Doom and Moss competing at the WOLB spot with Boss on the SOLB spot (assuming he's not hurt which is a huge assumption). DJ is a good fit for the WILB position but we'll need more of a thumper at the SILB spot.


I was illustrating how they had good talent, that fit the scheme that they were able to adapt, draft and let guys walk who would have cost to much. I don't disagree with you - i'm just clarifying my use of those examples.

TonyR
01-20-2009, 11:58 AM
Baltimore is so good and drafting and developing defensive talent, they've been able to let guys go and bring in new ones without missing a beat.

Very similar story in Pittsburgh.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 12:03 PM
Very similar story in Pittsburgh.

Another team that's been able to keep a stable core while letting pricey FAs walk.

TonyR
01-20-2009, 12:04 PM
Dude Atogewe isent going anywhere.

I agree, probably not. Plus we're not the only team looking to upgrade at S and LB. For example, I just read that the chargers want an upgrade for Clinton Hart.

montrose
01-20-2009, 12:52 PM
I was illustrating how they had good talent, that fit the scheme that they were able to adapt, draft and let guys walk who would have cost to much. I don't disagree with you - i'm just clarifying my use of those examples.

I hear you man, I just wanted to brag about my knowledge of the Ravens. LOL. I suppose I should take something from having to live there for a decade.

~Crash~
01-20-2009, 12:52 PM
It just doesn't make sense. We have enough holes on the defensive side of the ball without purposely creating more. Nolan's a smart guy who will recognize this and has extensive experience in a 4-3 system.

I DO see Denver potentially building a hybrid like Clancy Pendergast is doing in Arizona for this season and maybe the next while we try to amass the talent for a 3-4 in a year or two.

Reasons:
-I think potentially we only have a handful of front seven players that COULD succeed in a 3-4. Thomas and Robertson on the ends (which may very well stunt their actual talents), DJ and Wesley (which may also not work considering DJ's tendency to dance and Wesley's size), MAYBE Larsen and MAYBE Powell as a rotational end.

-Trying to address all these scheme shift needs could leave a gaping hole at safety.

-Where do we find the NT? It sure as hell isn't Raji, and we'll need TWO quality players at that spot with NONE available through FA.

-FA: At best we could manage to purchase two quality 3-4 players. Potentially Chris Canty, Suggs, Scott, and Ray Lewis could hit the market, but at minimum two will probably be resigned. Even if we can land two, it doesn't go far enough towards the needs Denver would have in a 3-4. The money would be better spent on current O players extensions, OJ Atogwe and possibly a run at one of the premier DL.

Not to be a smart ass but we have a great big hole in the middle of the D no matter what system you run. :thumbsup:

3-4 let's you get away with 6'2'' pass rushers easy to find dime a dozen and turns high octane O's into average . look who knocks out Indy each year .

~Crash~
01-20-2009, 12:55 PM
The Steelers have let how many big names go and still stayed competive !!!!

Drek
01-20-2009, 01:12 PM
1. Med already brought this up.

Yep, I'd started my post before I saw his.

2. If you think Otogwe is unattainable as an UFA, what makes you think Denver would have a shot at Watson in RFA? Especially when it's a 3rd year player with about a season and a half of starting experience and the only player above him on the depth chart is an 11 year vet? Watson is going nowhere unless Denver wants to get gouged in compensation.
Depends how much money they want to commit to Watson, and he's been a rotational player, not a starter the last year and a half.

Why did the Dolphins let Wes Welker go? Guys get tagged at a certain value as RFAs. If the Cards don't give Watson a 1st round tender I think we could find a way to sign him and be happy with the cost (like an '09 2nd rounder).

As far as fields goes... fields Sucks. With a capital "S".
Not great but as a veteran stop gap in rotation with a more talented rookie? Its tolerable. And even if we stay in the 4-3 we need a legitimate NT to pair with our UT, we don't have that and its just as hard to fill as a 3-4 NT will be in this current FA crop.

Pursuing a legitimate nose IS possible, like you say (although no one said it was impossible...) but it will definitely take away from resources that could be better spent addressing issues at safety and the DL before hitting MLB with the #12 pick.
Its all about what the FO and coaching staff considers more pressing issues. If they really want to play a 3-4 do you really think they'll let having to pay a high price for a quality NT stop them? I mean you got to coach to your talent but at this point we don't really have much talent in the front seven to coach to period.

I'm very willing to just trust the new staff's decisions on the defensive front seven. If they think BJ Raji is the next Haloti Ngata then cool by me. If they think Maualuga is the next great LB to vie with Beason and Willis then again, I'm on board.

Nolan has done more than enough with linebackers at every stop he's been to get my unquestioned support in that area until he proves otherwise. McDaniels spent time on the defensive side of the ball in NE when they were putting together their current all world DL of Warren, Wilfork, and Seymour so I think he understands the importance of a great DL regardless of the front. They haven't done anything yet for me to want to question their decisions in that regard so I'm just looking forward to the draft and FA with optimism. Maybe we already have a FA steal target for NT, you never know until after the fact.

gyldenlove
01-20-2009, 01:22 PM
I hate the word hybrid. The Toyota Prius that has the same build quality and ride comfort as a port-a-loo rolling down a hill. The problem is that it is not a good car, it is slow, poorly build, it is not comfortable to drive, it doesn't handle well and it is ugly, on the other hand it is it will save the environment right? no, because it uses nickel batteries a Prius does more damage to the environment over its lifetime than a midsize SUV, it also suffers from battery memory loss, making it less effecient as the years go and when you want to get rid of it, it is hugely expensive to dispose of the batteries propperly, but at least it is cheap, but not really, you can get a VW Polo bluemotion for much less, and it will have better mileage, as will the new Civic hybrid, and if you drive like a normal person as will a lot of compact diesels.

The problem with a hybrid is that they are not good enough to compete as a pure product. The Prius is clearly an inferior driving machine and is also inferior as a way to save the environment, the only real value it has is as a signal that you care, and thus as a way to get loads of rampant California eco-mentalist tail.

The same with a hybrid defense, the problem is that if you run a hybrid it is usualy because you are not good enough to run a 4-3 or 3-4, that only works if you are playing against a team of rampant Californian eco-mentalists - in other words a team that is befuddled by the unpredictability and are unable to see beyond what is facing them and realize that the defense really isn't that good.

Of course with a hybrid defense you can sign or draft any player, however as we have seen the problem arises that you end up missing key ingredients. For instance we right now have no stout runstopping DT or a big everydown DE, or a MLB who can quarterback the defense, or a good cover safety. For a defense to work, you need to make sure you have a plan, you need to be able to identify what type of player you need, what skillset you need to complement the current lineup.

On offense we have been good at that, we have found players who all fit into the same system, we don't have a runningback who relies on the offensive line holding up while the back dances around trying to find a good hole.

Fusionfrontman
01-20-2009, 01:35 PM
I hate the word hybrid. The Toyota Prius that has the same build quality and ride comfort as a port-a-loo rolling down a hill. The problem is that it is not a good car, it is slow, poorly build, it is not comfortable to drive, it doesn't handle well and it is ugly, on the other hand it is it will save the environment right? no, because it uses nickel batteries a Prius does more damage to the environment over its lifetime than a midsize SUV, it also suffers from battery memory loss, making it less effecient as the years go and when you want to get rid of it, it is hugely expensive to dispose of the batteries propperly, but at least it is cheap, but not really, you can get a VW Polo bluemotion for much less, and it will have better mileage, as will the new Civic hybrid, and if you drive like a normal person as will a lot of compact diesels.

The problem with a hybrid is that they are not good enough to compete as a pure product. The Prius is clearly an inferior driving machine and is also inferior as a way to save the environment, the only real value it has is as a signal that you care, and thus as a way to get loads of rampant California eco-mentalist tail.

The same with a hybrid defense, the problem is that if you run a hybrid it is usualy because you are not good enough to run a 4-3 or 3-4, that only works if you are playing against a team of rampant Californian eco-mentalists - in other words a team that is befuddled by the unpredictability and are unable to see beyond what is facing them and realize that the defense really isn't that good.

Of course with a hybrid defense you can sign or draft any player, however as we have seen the problem arises that you end up missing key ingredients. For instance we right now have no stout runstopping DT or a big everydown DE, or a MLB who can quarterback the defense, or a good cover safety. For a defense to work, you need to make sure you have a plan, you need to be able to identify what type of player you need, what skillset you need to complement the current lineup.

On offense we have been good at that, we have found players who all fit into the same system, we don't have a runningback who relies on the offensive line holding up while the back dances around trying to find a good hole.

Great post. I like it a lot. 3-4///4-3.... as long as our D IMPROVES I am happy. Someone else here said they trust the coaching staff. I agree with that. We'll see come draft, FA, TC, Pre-season and then judge. New coaches means new things, duh, but I am not going to question any moves yet until they are proved to be stupid moves.

However, if we do something stupid like not pay Marshall, Sheff, Kuper....then I'm going to pull my hair out

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 02:34 PM
Yep, I'd started my post before I saw his.


Depends how much money they want to commit to Watson, and he's been a rotational player, not a starter the last year and a half.

That's why I said he has a year and a half of starting experience. He started every game last season and 5 his rookie year. You are partially right, he was a rotational player THIS season.

Why did the Dolphins let Wes Welker go? Guys get tagged at a certain value as RFAs. If the Cards don't give Watson a 1st round tender I think we could find a way to sign him and be happy with the cost (like an '09 2nd rounder).

They might very well tender him to a 2nd or 3rd, and though he's solid, he's not worth that compensation. Remember what Shaun Rogers cost? He happens to be a top 3 NT. Watsons a good player, but nowhere NEAR that level.

Not great but as a veteran stop gap in rotation with a more talented rookie? Its tolerable. And even if we stay in the 4-3 we need a legitimate NT to pair with our UT, we don't have that and its just as hard to fill as a 3-4 NT will be in this current FA crop.

Where are we getting the rookie if we're giving up a 2nd (as per your plan above) for someone you're now calling "stop gap"? Are we devoting all of day one to a stop gap RFA and a flat out bust in Raji?


Its all about what the FO and coaching staff considers more pressing issues. If they really want to play a 3-4 do you really think they'll let having to pay a high price for a quality NT stop them? I mean you got to coach to your talent but at this point we don't really have much talent in the front seven to coach to period.

Not particularly, but you have to show me the quality NT

I'm very willing to just trust the new staff's decisions on the defensive front seven. If they think BJ Raji is the next Haloti Ngata then cool by me. If they think Maualuga is the next great LB to vie with Beason and Willis then again, I'm on board.

Agree, but if they take Raji for a 3-4 nose, they should have their nuts popped off in a vise.

Nolan has done more than enough with linebackers at every stop he's been to get my unquestioned support in that area until he proves otherwise. McDaniels spent time on the defensive side of the ball in NE when they were putting together their current all world DL of Warren, Wilfork, and Seymour so I think he understands the importance of a great DL regardless of the front. They haven't done anything yet for me to want to question their decisions in that regard so I'm just looking forward to the draft and FA with optimism. Maybe we already have a FA steal target for NT, you never know until after the fact.

See above. And, yes, we can play maybe's all day. I'm saying, "I don't think we go to a 3-4 this year" and stating why.

OABB
01-20-2009, 02:34 PM
from the post:


If the Broncos are going to learn how to play the 3-4 defense, they better get some coaches who can teach it.

Wayne Nunnely can not only coach the 3-4, he guided the vaunted defensive line of the rival San Diego Chargers for the past 12 years.

In what has to be considered an AFC West coaching coup, the Broncos signed Nunnely to a two-year contract Tuesday to become their new defensive line coach.

"It's a change that I felt I needed to do at this stage of my career," said Nunnely, 56. "I've had a great 12 years here with the Chargers through three or four different head coaches and a number of coordinators and I just felt like I needed a new challenge, a new environment."

After coaching such natural 3-4 linemen as noseguard Jamal Williams, tackle Luis Castillo and end Igor Olshansky with the Chargers in recent years, Nunnely's challenge with the Broncos will be to both find new D-line personal, and teach alternate techniques to existing players who are accustomed to playing in the 4-3 defense.

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

SouthStndJunkie
01-20-2009, 02:35 PM
from the post:


If the Broncos are going to learn how to play the 3-4 defense, they better get some coaches who can teach it.

Wayne Nunnely can not only coach the 3-4, he guided the vaunted defensive line of the rival San Diego Chargers for the past 12 years.

In what has to be considered an AFC West coaching coup, the Broncos signed Nunnely to a two-year contract Tuesday to become their new defensive line coach.

"It's a change that I felt I needed to do at this stage of my career," said Nunnely, 56. "I've had a great 12 years here with the Chargers through three or four different head coaches and a number of coordinators and I just felt like I needed a new challenge, a new environment."

After coaching such natural 3-4 linemen as noseguard Jamal Williams, tackle Luis Castillo and end Igor Olshansky with the Chargers in recent years, Nunnely's challenge with the Broncos will be to both find new D-line personal, and teach alternate techniques to existing players who are accustomed to playing in the 4-3 defense.

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

Sweet....that is a great addition to the coaching staff.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 02:37 PM
from the post:


If the Broncos are going to learn how to play the 3-4 defense, they better get some coaches who can teach it.

Wayne Nunnely can not only coach the 3-4, he guided the vaunted defensive line of the rival San Diego Chargers for the past 12 years.

In what has to be considered an AFC West coaching coup, the Broncos signed Nunnely to a two-year contract Tuesday to become their new defensive line coach.

"It's a change that I felt I needed to do at this stage of my career," said Nunnely, 56. "I've had a great 12 years here with the Chargers through three or four different head coaches and a number of coordinators and I just felt like I needed a new challenge, a new environment."

After coaching such natural 3-4 linemen as noseguard Jamal Williams, tackle Luis Castillo and end Igor Olshansky with the Chargers in recent years, Nunnely's challenge with the Broncos will be to both find new D-line personal, and teach alternate techniques to existing players who are accustomed to playing in the 4-3 defense.

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

Why do I love all the defensive hires and loathe (for the most part) the offensive ones?

socalorado
01-20-2009, 02:41 PM
Why do I love all the defensive hires and loathe (for the most part) the offensive ones?

So does this change your opinion of DEN going to a 3-4, or no?

wolf754life
01-20-2009, 02:52 PM
rev argument = epic fail

here comes the 3 - 4 fanboy!

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 02:57 PM
So does this change your opinion of DEN going to a 3-4, or no?

Not particularly. This is another great coach. I feel the same way about Nolan. They're both considered 3-4 guys but they've got nearly just as much experience in the 4-3. I REALLY think they'll take at least a season acquiring the proper talent and fits before making the shift. We'll see, though, they may very well do it.

Like McDaniel's said, they'll finalize that decision after FA and the draft, I just don't think they'll be able to acquire the players necessary to do it properly and have a respectable amount of depth.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 02:58 PM
rev argument = epic fail

here comes the 3 - 4 fanboy!

It's Jan 20th... aren't you overdue to flip flop on the coach?

wolf754life
01-20-2009, 03:03 PM
rev keep enlightening us with your profound takes..........

you sir a mad genius!

reps to you

BroncoBuff
01-20-2009, 03:04 PM
Dude ... could you be more irritating?

no-pseudo-fan
01-20-2009, 03:05 PM
Why do I love all the defensive hires and loathe (for the most part) the offensive ones?

The Offensive Hire was McD. With Turner and Dennison back, everything else on offense is window dressing

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 03:16 PM
rev keep enlightening us with your profound takes..........

you sir a mad genius!

reps to you

I'd love to stay and play with you, but vagina awaits. Good evening to you good sir. Hope you still like McDaniels in the morning. I'll be back on 7am EST if you'd like to continue your riveting end of the discussion.

TheReverend
01-20-2009, 03:19 PM
Real quick... Wolf's rep comment was legitimately funny and with a good point, so I wanted to share it in fairness's sake:

"great call, certainly not the time to switch the defense with all new coaches and 30th ranking in the league, lets wait, change is bad on defense."

Legitimate point, but as I've stated and as a I think Man-Goblin made a parallel with Parcells in Dallas, we CAN be patient and take our time acquiring a foundation of talent first, instead of hoping.

SureShot
01-20-2009, 03:20 PM
Dude ... could you be more irritating?

No he couldn't actually. When we go 6-10 next will he call all the MickeyD supporters fanboys or will he in fact be the fanboy?

ZONA
01-20-2009, 04:02 PM
If you ask me, a hybrid can be more difficult to run then just switching to a 3-4. One of the most common problems you hear all the time when it comes to defense is having to many different looks and guys have to try and remember way to many assignments. They get lost out there and get out of position alot because they are on the field trying to remember what frickin assignment they have.

At least in a base 3-4, even though the players might be the most suited for it, I happen to believe you will make less mistakes if you know where you are supposed to be on lets say 25 different plays, instead of trying to remember 40 plays because sometimes you are in 3-4 and sometimes in a 4-3.

Another thing, I think too much weight goes into "the right kind of player" for a given defense. It's important but good players are good players. I mean, who in the hell thought Charles Barkley would be able to play power forward in the NBA? He wasn't just good, he was a total stud, even though he wasn't 6'10" like the typical PF size. I look at Rey Lewis as an example also. Didn't he come from Miami where they ran a 4-3. He isn't the biggest ILB around. He gets it done because of talent and passion.

So let's not totally over react to "is this guy a 3-4 player or a 4-3 player".

Drek
01-20-2009, 04:57 PM
See above. And, yes, we can play maybe's all day. I'm saying, "I don't think we go to a 3-4 this year" and stating why.

I get what you're saying but we don't have what it takes to play a 4-3 either.

Our front seven is going to suck regardless until we find some talent, draft or FA, and I don't see us going after Haynesworth. So if we know the interior of our DL is going to suck we might as well start getting the rest of the team into the 3-4 as well so when we finally get the right NT we hit the ground running.

Dedhed
01-20-2009, 07:05 PM
It would be a defeatist attitude, and keep the weight on Jay's shoulders that everyone is currently crucifying him for.

How is the truth defeatist? We can, at the worst go from 30th to 32nd. Last year, sticking with the 4-3, we got worse.

We have as many holes to fill in a 4-3 as we do moving to a 3-4.

ZONA
01-20-2009, 07:26 PM
How is the truth defeatist? We can, at the worst go from 30th to 32nd. Last year, sticking with the 4-3, we got worse.

We have as many holes to fill in a 4-3 as we do moving to a 3-4.


I mean, for real people. What's at stake here? Going from 30th worst defense to 32nd if we don't pull this 3-4 thing off? That is the worst thing that can happen. Dropping 2 spots and really, what's the difference between the 30th worst defense and the 32nd worst defense? Probably next to nothing. You really have to look at it like we were the most pathetic defense in the league last year so there is NOTHING to lose. I think it would be down right stupid and foolish to pretend we are going to try and hybrid or even stick with the 4-3 for a short period of time.

Just face it, we're going 3-4 right now. It probably won't look too pretty right away but all you have to remember is the last game we played last year against SD. It can't get worse then that.

bronco militia
01-20-2009, 08:44 PM
go easy on the Rev...someone needs to take up the FAIL slack while Kaylore is away ;D

fontaine
01-21-2009, 03:04 AM
I don't see how it's going to be a big problem to switch to a 3-4.

We already two/three viable DEs in Thomas/Robertson (if he reworks his deal) and Powell who's a hard nosed run stuffer.

Then we could sign Shaun Cody and bring in a backup NT and it's a done deal.

The difficult part is going to be finding two real pass rushing OLBs. Moss/Dumervil don't excite me as OLBs so we will have to hope something works out in the draft because apart from Suggs there aren't any real OLBs in FA for a 3-4.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 04:02 AM
I get what you're saying but we don't have what it takes to play a 4-3 either.

Our front seven is going to suck regardless until we find some talent, draft or FA, and I don't see us going after Haynesworth. So if we know the interior of our DL is going to suck we might as well start getting the rest of the team into the 3-4 as well so when we finally get the right NT we hit the ground running.

I get what you're saying too. And all the hires transparently project 3-4, but these are solid defensive coaches that know both alignments front and back. There's a reason why the coaches aren't committing either way until they're deep into the personnel acquisition phase, and I simply don't think they'll acquire enough THIS off-season to become a 3-4 team.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 04:04 AM
How is the truth defeatist? We can, at the worst go from 30th to 32nd. Last year, sticking with the 4-3, we got worse.

We have as many holes to fill in a 4-3 as we do moving to a 3-4.

Or you could look at it as if we can make some moderate improvements, and force more turnovers, we'd be in the same situation as Arizona who may be about to win the Superbowl.

Btw, they were another team who's HC came in as a 3-4 guy, but didn't have the personnel to properly pull it off so they created a hybrid between the two.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 04:05 AM
go easy on the Rev...someone needs to take up the FAIL slack while Kaylore is away ;D

Is this a serious post?

bronco militia
01-21-2009, 08:09 AM
Is this a serious post?

I thought the ;D was a dead give away

Ha!

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 08:39 AM
I thought the ;D was a dead give away

Ha!

Riveting addition to the discussion, dude! Ha!

bronco militia
01-21-2009, 08:41 AM
Riveting addition to the discussion, dude! Ha!


since when? Ha!

The MVPlaya
01-21-2009, 08:45 AM
We sucked so bad at 4-3, there's no reason not to change. There was no potential, or bright lights with the 4-3...there is NO reason to stick with it regardless of personnel.

There's nothing we could lose by switching to 3-4.

socalorado
01-21-2009, 08:48 AM
We sucked so bad at 4-3, there's no reason not to change. There was no potential, or bright lights with the 4-3...there is NO reason to stick with it regardless of personnel.
There's nothing we could lose by switching to 3-4.



http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=7116&dateline=1229098129 (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=7116)

bronco militia
01-21-2009, 08:48 AM
We sucked so bad at 4-3, there's no reason not to change. There was no potential, or bright lights with the 4-3...there is NO reason to stick with it regardless of personnel.

There's nothing we could lose by switching to 3-4.

sure there is ...the broncos could be ranked 32 instead of 30 in defense.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 08:49 AM
We sucked so bad at 4-3, there's no reason not to change. There was no potential, or bright lights with the 4-3...there is NO reason to stick with it regardless of personnel.

There's nothing we could lose by switching to 3-4.

What's there to lose?

Well, football games for one.

If we create more holes which consume the resources that MAY have been used to fix the ones in the present situation, then it's a lateral move and not an improvement, and that's exactly WHY our coaches haven't committed to the 3-4 yet, but Dom Capers DID day one in Green Bay.

Be patient and trust these guys to do what's best for the team. I THINK we'll be staying in a 4-3 for these reasons, but I could very well be wrong. If we DO pull the trigger on the move, they better have one bad ass plan.

bronco militia
01-21-2009, 08:51 AM
What's there to lose?

Well, football games for one.

If we create more holes which consume the resources that MAY have been used to fix the ones in the present situation, then it's a lateral move and not an improvement, and that's exactly WHY our coaches haven't committed to the 3-4 yet, but Dom Capers DID day one in Green Bay.

Be patient and trust these guys to do what's best for the team. I THINK we'll be staying in a 4-3 for these reasons, but I could very well be wrong. If we DO pull the trigger on the move, they better have one bad ass plan.

the last couple of coaching moves say the switch is in progress.

I think i'll wait and see what happens when free agency begins

socalorado
01-21-2009, 08:52 AM
What's there to lose?
Well, football games for one.
If we create more holes which consume the resources that MAY have been used to fix the ones in the present situation, then it's a lateral move and not an improvement, and that's exactly WHY our coaches haven't committed to the 3-4 yet, but Dom Capers DID day one in Green Bay.
Be patient and trust these guys to do what's best for the team. I THINK we'll be staying in a 4-3 for these reasons, but I could very well be wrong. If weDO pull the trigger on the move, they better have one bad ass plan.


http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=7116&dateline=1229098129 (http://www.orangemane.com/BB/member.php?u=7116)

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 08:56 AM
the last couple of coaching moves say the switch is in progress.

I think i'll wait and see what happens when free agency begins

Of course it's in progress!

How much of the thread did you read, man? What I said was I don't think we'll make the switch THIS season and rather spend another year acquiring talent to make a smooth transition to the 3-4. That line of thought is every bit as common as the immediate shift. Everyone of these coaches has a wealth of experience in both schemes as well.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 08:57 AM
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/image.php?u=7116&dateline=1229098129[/URL]

Are you saying WWIII is the bad ass plan? :thumbsup:

bronco militia
01-21-2009, 08:59 AM
Of course it's in progress!

How much of the thread did you read, man? What I said was I don't think we'll make the switch THIS season and rather spend another year acquiring talent to make a smooth transition to the 3-4. That line of thought is every bit as common as the immediate shift. Everyone of these coaches has a wealth of experience in both schemes as well.

read the entire thread? why would I want to do that?:approve:

I'm with you on this rev...I just figured I'd pile on when wolf was giving you **** last night.:~ohyah!:

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 09:01 AM
read the entire thread? why would I want to do that?:approve:

I'm with you on this rev...I just figured I'd pile on when wolf was giving you **** last night.:~ohyah!:

That's a good point. I usually just read the OP/article and click to the last page. Personally, I could care less as long as what they do works. I'm partial to the 3-4, though.

bronco militia
01-21-2009, 09:04 AM
That's a good point. I usually just read the OP/article and click to the last page. Personally, I could care less as long as what they do works. I'm partial to the 3-4, though.

same here....

just win dammit

CEH
01-21-2009, 09:26 AM
from the post:


If the Broncos are going to learn how to play the 3-4 defense, they better get some coaches who can teach it.

Wayne Nunnely can not only coach the 3-4, he guided the vaunted defensive line of the rival San Diego Chargers for the past 12 years.

In what has to be considered an AFC West coaching coup, the Broncos signed Nunnely to a two-year contract Tuesday to become their new defensive line coach.

"It's a change that I felt I needed to do at this stage of my career," said Nunnely, 56. "I've had a great 12 years here with the Chargers through three or four different head coaches and a number of coordinators and I just felt like I needed a new challenge, a new environment."

After coaching such natural 3-4 linemen as noseguard Jamal Williams, tackle Luis Castillo and end Igor Olshansky with the Chargers in recent years, Nunnely's challenge with the Broncos will be to both find new D-line personal, and teach alternate techniques to existing players who are accustomed to playing in the 4-3 defense.

Mike Klis: 303-954-1055 or mklis@denverpost.com

The guy has coached for 12 years. Seems to me that SD ran a 4-3 back in the late 90's and into this decade. Did Seau play in a 3-4?

We could be moving or just want a quality DLine coach who knows the AFCW.

Drek
01-21-2009, 10:01 AM
What's there to lose?

Well, football games for one.

If we create more holes which consume the resources that MAY have been used to fix the ones in the present situation, then it's a lateral move and not an improvement, and that's exactly WHY our coaches haven't committed to the 3-4 yet, but Dom Capers DID day one in Green Bay.

Be patient and trust these guys to do what's best for the team. I THINK we'll be staying in a 4-3 for these reasons, but I could very well be wrong. If we DO pull the trigger on the move, they better have one bad ass plan.

Capers has a pretty solid LB crew already in place. They'll move Kampman bakc to OLB, Chillar at the other OLB spot, and Hawk and Barnett inside.

They also got some good DL options already in place.

They can afford to say "we're a 3-4 team now" because they don't need a truck load of pieces. We on the other hand have basically nothing in the front seven and are starting from scratch.

We might not change, but I don't think the difficulty in assembling a solid 3-4 front seven is going to be what determines that. The coaching staff and FO will talk over what they're most comfortable with and what they feel most prepared to evaluate talent in and that is what they'll go to.

I know its tough to find a good NT in the 3-4 but its also tough to find a good 4-3 NT. Or good 4-3 DEs. Or a 4-3 MLB. We don't have any of that either. We're looking at basically the same number of holes to fill with the same number of pegs to fill them. The only difference is where the coaching staff feels most comfortable evaluating what fits best where.

I like the diverse talent pool because even if we go 3-4 our coaches at least understand the 4-3 well enough to evaluate our players based on 4-3 film and to also ease the transition for them. But a hybrid is also definitely not out of the realm of possibility.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 10:25 AM
Capers has a pretty solid LB crew already in place. They'll move Kampman bakc to OLB, Chillar at the other OLB spot, and Hawk and Barnett inside.

They also got some good DL options already in place.

They can afford to say "we're a 3-4 team now" because they don't need a truck load of pieces. We on the other hand have basically nothing in the front seven and are starting from scratch.

We might not change, but I don't think the difficulty in assembling a solid 3-4 front seven is going to be what determines that. The coaching staff and FO will talk over what they're most comfortable with and what they feel most prepared to evaluate talent in and that is what they'll go to.

Everything above this point is precisely what this thread is about. And naturally it's about the front seven pieces... that's the difference between the two aside from the occasional safeties in the box gap asignment

I know its tough to find a good NT in the 3-4 but its also tough to find a good 4-3 NT. Or good 4-3 DEs. Or a 4-3 MLB. We don't have any of that either. We're looking at basically the same number of holes to fill with the same number of pegs to fill them. The only difference is where the coaching staff feels most comfortable evaluating what fits best where.

This is where we differ then. If we go after a nose, it costs us a chance to get that MLB/ILB and just creates an extra hole. Resources and options are finite. Things can certainly click to make it happen, but it'd take a lot and I think it's smarter to delay it a season and grab some pieces and extend some players this off-season.

I like the diverse talent pool because even if we go 3-4 our coaches at least understand the 4-3 well enough to evaluate our players based on 4-3 film and to also ease the transition for them. But a hybrid is also definitely not out of the realm of possibility.

Pendergast style


It's starting to sound like you completely agree with me, Drek :thumbs:

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 10:51 AM
According to the Baltimore Sun, it looks like the Ravens are gonna fight the Cowboys to keep Ray-Ray, and they're gonna re-sign Suggs, too.

http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/2771/91793975ig7.jpg
They might let Bart Scott go, but he's their 3-4 Will LB, so he's not really an option because that's the position DJ Williams projects to.

If we go 3-4, DJ will be playing on the inside. He does not have the size or natural pass rushing skills to play outside in a 3-4. The outside backer in a 3-4 scheme is essentially a smaller (think 250-260 pounds), more versatile DE. At 6'1" 240 and with no pass rushing credentials, DJ figures to shift to one of the inside backer spots in the 3-4

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 10:53 AM
I think it is pretty clear we are switching to the 3-4 given the coaching choices, but we may have to make the shift gradually with the personnel overhaul required.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 10:56 AM
I think it is pretty clear we are switching to the 3-4 given the coaching choices, but we may have to make the shift gradually with the personnel overhaul required.

How do we go 5 pages just to get back to the same thing covered in the OP?

socalorado
01-21-2009, 10:56 AM
How do we go 5 pages just to get back to the same thing covered in the OP?

Hilarious!

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 11:00 AM
How do we go 5 pages just to get back to the same thing covered in the OP?

Then I guess we agree, smartass. Perhaps you should have used a different thread title, because the one you chose says we won't be going to a 3-4. It doesn't say we will gradually move to the 3-4.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 11:04 AM
Then I guess we agree, smartass. Perhaps you should have used a different thread title, because the one you chose says we won't be going to a 3-4. It doesn't say we will gradually move to the 3-4.

I'm just giving you ****, but really, you didn't even bother to read the post? Just a fragment sentence title and you're ready to post? ;)

bronco militia
01-21-2009, 11:08 AM
we clearly need another 3-4 thread

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 11:10 AM
we clearly need another 3-4 thread

Start one. Then I'll harass you but suffix it with emoticons.

Taco John
01-21-2009, 11:12 AM
No. You're wrong REv. The coaches are going to switch to the 3-4 no matter what. You're just resistant to change.

/wolf

Popps
01-21-2009, 11:14 AM
I think it is pretty clear we are switching to the 3-4 given the coaching choices, but we may have to make the shift gradually with the personnel overhaul required.

If we're not switching to the 3-4... the staff is sure doing everything they can to make the world think they are.

Again, if it's inevitable, get it over with. Yes, you have to bring in talent... but we don't have half of the talent we need to run a 4-3 right now. Literally, we couldn't even get in teams' way last year.

You're looking at a major roster turnover, either way. Take the pain now and if we're truly committing to a 3-4, start bringing in the talent to run the scheme.

Outside of that, you're looking at having to bring in two top-flight 4-3 DEs to keep us competitive. Then, what do we do with them the following year if we make the switch... release them?

If we're making the move, we need to make the move.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 11:22 AM
No. You're wrong REv. The coaches are going to switch to the 3-4 no matter what. You're just resistant to change.

/wolf

That's a pretty good impression. I actually like Wolf, though.

bronco militia
01-21-2009, 11:25 AM
Start one. Then I'll harass you but suffix it with emoticons.

sounds like a job for Hotrod

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 11:27 AM
I'm just giving you ****, but really, you didn't even bother to read the post? Just a fragment sentence title and you're ready to post? ;)

I sort of skimmed the thread. Lesson learned.

But to expand my thoughts, I actually think the switch won't be as hard as you may think, and in the long run the 3-4 is easier to manage personnel wise two reasons: 1) Fewer teams to compete with for personnel resources 2) It is much easier to put together a quality linebacking unit than it is a quality DL. The DL in a 3-4 are only asked to occupy blockers and fill their gaps, unlike 4-3 lineman who also need to provide the bulk of your pass rush. Gap-plugging fatties are easier to find than those more versatile lineman. We have two guys on the roster who could fill the end spots in Robertson and Thomas (like you mentioned). That means we get a stop-gap NT in free agency and then draft someone to groom for down the road. At LB you need two versatile guys on the outside. I think between Dumervil, Moss, and Crowder we can plug at least one of those guys into one of those spots. So, we make our biggest FA splash on someone like Suggs or look to the draft where those outside guys are usually ready to contribute quicker than other positions. Woodyard and DJ on the inside (release Boss). The gives us at least a stop-gap group for '08 that I think has a chance to be more successful than our 4-3 options.

alkemical
01-21-2009, 11:28 AM
How do we go 5 pages just to get back to the same thing covered in the OP?

...go straight long enough and you end up where you were...

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 11:41 AM
I sort of skimmed the thread. Lesson learned.

But to expand my thoughts, I actually think the switch won't be as hard as you may think, and in the long run the 3-4 is easier to manage personnel wise two reasons: 1) Fewer teams to compete with for personnel resources 2) It is much easier to put together a quality linebacking unit than it is a quality DL. The DL in a 3-4 are only asked to occupy blockers and fill their gaps, unlike 4-3 lineman who also need to provide the bulk of your pass rush. Gap-plugging fatties are easier to find than those more versatile lineman. We have two guys on the roster who could fill the end spots in Robertson and Thomas (like you mentioned). That means we get a stop-gap NT in free agency and then draft someone to groom for down the road. At LB you need two versatile guys on the outside. I think between Dumervil, Moss, and Crowder we can plug at least one of those guys into one of those spots. So, we make our biggest FA splash on someone like Suggs or look to the draft where those outside guys are usually ready to contribute quicker than other positions. Woodyard and DJ on the inside (release Boss). The gives us at least a stop-gap group for '08 that I think has a chance to be more successful than our 4-3 options.

I'm on board with whatever they can get.

I'd be shocked if Suggs left Baltimore. They'll throw money at him. Let's say he DOES hit FA, would it bother you if we signed him anyways, and played him at DE and especially on pass rush downs? That wouldn't lessen his ability in any way, and buys another year to gather the appropriate talent and fits before making the shift.

I fully expect them to target at minimum 4 3-4 guys, but these ARE football players. They can play a 4-3 for a season to buy us the time to grab another 3-5 players next season. Then we can have the correct fits/depth to field a respectable unit while we progress into the 3-4.

Drek
01-21-2009, 01:21 PM
It's starting to sound like you completely agree with me, Drek :thumbs:

Well one thing I definitely don't agree with you on is 3-4 making more holes for us to fill that'll cost us down the road.

Our need for a legit NT exists regardless of the front we run. Robertson, Thomas, and Powell are all UT types in a 4-3, and all this season Thomas and Robertson saw their strong suits taken away from them because we never had a guy who could eat up blockers and let them shoot the gaps next to them.

We will NEVER see a quality line, regardless of formation, until we add a legitimate NT. He doesn't need to be an all world stud, but we damn sure need someone who can handle the job at least at an average level.

So this notion that a 3-4 somehow creates an extra hole, when we have the same massive hole in the middle of our line regardless, isn't in the least bit true.

Unless you're a fan of horrible DL play. Because until we get a legitimate space eater we aren't going to get it done. This is, to me, where Shanahan's biggest mistake was made last off-season. I tried to sell myself on Robertson but in reality we SHOULD have gotten Jenkins, Rogers, or Stroud. Any one of the three and we have a guy who could've filled the gap and freed up the rest of the DL to get aggressive. Instead we brought in a guy who should've been playing a UT role, getting to rush himself.

There is no extra hole to fill with the 3-4. Moss and Crowder are still projects, but instead of being project DEs they're project LBs. Larsen is still a solid contributing MLB that you'd prefer to be second string. DJ is still a starting caliber LB. Thomas instead of being a fringe starter DT with potential would be a fringe starter DE with potential. Robertson is gone regardless because his cap hit is stupid. Boss Bailey is either an ILB or a SLB in the 3-4, definitely a SLB in the 4-3.

I just don't see where it creates an extra hole. Maybe you could argue that it creates one at one of the DE positions, but I'd argue that a team which just started John Engelberger for a 16 game season at one DE position already has a pretty significant hole there to begin with.

We got very little worth even being concerned with in our front seven. The coaching staff doesn't even need to legitimately take it into consideration when deciding on the direction to take the defense because there is that little worth saving. If they want to go 3-4 they need to do it now, not a year or two down the road, because waiting is just putting off a rough transitional year for later, when we might actually be on the verge of contention, when we could get it out of the way now and have all the "keepers" on our roster coached up to play the 3-4 as we fill pieces in around them.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 02:18 PM
Well one thing I definitely don't agree with you on is 3-4 making more holes for us to fill that'll cost us down the road.

Our need for a legit NT exists regardless of the front we run. Robertson, Thomas, and Powell are all UT types in a 4-3, and all this season Thomas and Robertson saw their strong suits taken away from them because we never had a guy who could eat up blockers and let them shoot the gaps next to them.

We will NEVER see a quality line, regardless of formation, until we add a legitimate NT. He doesn't need to be an all world stud, but we damn sure need someone who can handle the job at least at an average level.

So this notion that a 3-4 somehow creates an extra hole, when we have the same massive hole in the middle of our line regardless, isn't in the least bit true.

Unless you're a fan of horrible DL play. Because until we get a legitimate space eater we aren't going to get it done. This is, to me, where Shanahan's biggest mistake was made last off-season. I tried to sell myself on Robertson but in reality we SHOULD have gotten Jenkins, Rogers, or Stroud. Any one of the three and we have a guy who could've filled the gap and freed up the rest of the DL to get aggressive. Instead we brought in a guy who should've been playing a UT role, getting to rush himself.

There is no extra hole to fill with the 3-4. Moss and Crowder are still projects, but instead of being project DEs they're project LBs. Larsen is still a solid contributing MLB that you'd prefer to be second string. DJ is still a starting caliber LB. Thomas instead of being a fringe starter DT with potential would be a fringe starter DE with potential. Robertson is gone regardless because his cap hit is stupid. Boss Bailey is either an ILB or a SLB in the 3-4, definitely a SLB in the 4-3.

I just don't see where it creates an extra hole. Maybe you could argue that it creates one at one of the DE positions, but I'd argue that a team which just started John Engelberger for a 16 game season at one DE position already has a pretty significant hole there to begin with.

We got very little worth even being concerned with in our front seven. The coaching staff doesn't even need to legitimately take it into consideration when deciding on the direction to take the defense because there is that little worth saving. If they want to go 3-4 they need to do it now, not a year or two down the road, because waiting is just putting off a rough transitional year for later, when we might actually be on the verge of contention, when we could get it out of the way now and have all the "keepers" on our roster coached up to play the 3-4 as we fill pieces in around them.

Well out of 4 linebacker spots, we have what that could manage?

You're a fan of DJ Williams, so where do you think he fits? Because even his supporters have to believe he's definitely NOT suited to be inside in a 3-4 where you need to be part defensive tackle suited to taking on blockers and playing in traffic or AT LEAST have that mentality. DJ's a dancer when he's not blitzing. I figure he MIGHT be able to play OLB because he's a pretty good blitzer, good size, and would be useful in coverage.

So MAYBE we have one spot filled. Then we need to hope that Doom or Moss can be effective? Doom maybe, but Moss? How can you be effective standing up when you can't in a down stance?

So we need to just be hopeful that we can nail:
Two solid noses
Thomas and Robertson transition effectively
DJ, Larsen, Woodyard can find a spot
At LEAST ONE more ILB that can thump

...and that's before addressing the safety position and getting some decent corner depth for our injury prone aging starters.

Punisher
01-21-2009, 02:21 PM
It will be Great to see the 3-4 back in Denver :)

Punisher
01-21-2009, 02:23 PM
Olb:Jarvis Moss
Ilb:S. Larsen
Ilb D.J
Rolb:Woodyard
Book it

Popps
01-21-2009, 02:27 PM
DE - Thomas NT - Sign one/draft one DE - Robertson

OLB-Sign one/draft one ILB-Larson ILB-Williams/draft one - Dumervil/Moss

So, we'd flat out need to sign/draft one starter at OLB and NT, in addition to maybe a vet and a draft pick on the inside.

Again, the big problem with NOT switching is that to not switch... we MUST go out and make DRASTIC improvements to our DE spots, and that takes big resources. Do we really want to tie up more contracts and draft picks in 4-3 players that we have to dump?

We've already got guys like Crowder, Boss Bailey and others that are real dead weight on this roster as it is.

I don't know... I understand the difficulty in making the transition, I'm just not sure what other choice we have than to commit and go full-out. Sure, maybe we run some hybrid this year.... multiple sets. But, it seems to me that we need to get starting on the heavy lifting to get this thing going.

UberBroncoMan
01-21-2009, 02:35 PM
Look at all the D coaches we've hired... I don't see how we aren't going to a 3-4.

Drek
01-21-2009, 02:39 PM
Well out of 4 linebacker spots, we have what that could manage?

You're a fan of DJ Williams, so where do you think he fits? Because even his supporters have to believe he's definitely NOT suited to be inside in a 3-4 where you need to be part defensive tackle suited to taking on blockers and playing in traffic or AT LEAST have that mentality. DJ's a dancer when he's not blitzing. I figure he MIGHT be able to play OLB because he's a pretty good blitzer, good size, and would be useful in coverage.

So MAYBE we have one spot filled. Then we need to hope that Doom or Moss can be effective? Doom maybe, but Moss? How can you be effective standing up when you can't in a down stance?

So we need to just be hopeful that we can nail:
Two solid noses
Thomas and Robertson transition effectively
DJ, Larsen, Woodyard can find a spot
At LEAST ONE more ILB that can thump

...and that's before addressing the safety position and getting some decent corner depth for our injury prone aging starters.

Lets do a front seven break down for each, since safety is a need regardless.

4-3
LDE: Dumervil (but only on passing downs)
NT: ???
UT: Thomas
RDE: ???
WLB: DJ
MLB: Larsen?
SLB: Boss?

3-4
LDE: Peterson?
NT: ???
RDE: Thomas
WOLB: Dumervil/Moss?
WILB: DJ
SILB: Larsen?
SOLB: Boss? Crowder?

DJ became pretty comfortable at MLB by the end of 2007. He wasn't great there but he did a solid job. He's obviously most comfortable at WLB. Thankfully the WILB job in the 3-4 is a combination of the two, a position he'd probably fit into quite well.

Dumervil's only chance to be an every down player in the NFL is to either 1. play with the biggest, baddest hog mollies to ever man a DT tandem with a fierce run stopping OLB behind him or 2. change to a 3-4 OLB. So I don't see how we're losing anything by taking the risk that he can be an every down guy in that system, versus the situational pass rush DE that nearly every team we played this year neutralized without much work.

Thomas has been misused his entire time here, I think he's equally fit for the UT 4-3 role as he is a 3-4 DE role.

That basically goes over the three "keepers" in our front seven right there.

And again, Robertson is gone. His cap number is stupid, he won't be back.

I'm guessing your problem comes from thinking that both ILBs in a 3-4 play the same role, and that both DTs in a 4-3 play the same role. They don't, and if you don't have guys who fit the specific needs of their repsective part of that tandem then you don't have a productive defense.

Case in point, the problem with our DTs isn't that Robertson and Thomas are both horrible, but that neither one is suited to being a straight up run stuffing gap controller. They're both penetrating DTs. By not having a guy who can play the 4-3 NT position we end up forcing two UTs into the lineup and neither of them can play effectively as a result.

mr007
01-21-2009, 02:41 PM
One of the main things McDaniels stated in his first conference was continuity on defense. Starting with a specific scheme and sticking to it. I don't think this means going with a 4-3 next year and attempting to transition to a 3-4 the year after. We have glaring needs either way and I'll think we'll see a struggling 3-4 next year, but one that generates more turnovers and outplays our D from this year.

Yes we need linebackers, but, we have potential from our current unit. I think DJ will be fine at WILB, we draft for SILB, Doom/Woodyard/possibly competition plays the weakside, and Boss combined with competition play the strongside. Boss did pretty well while he was in and not injured. We would need to pick someone up at NT and Thomas/Robertson/Peterson (maybe) play the ends. To me this sounds just as good as anything we would have in the 4-3 and our players would be learning the scheme for that whole year even though it's a progressive move for the D.

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 02:59 PM
Well out of 4 linebacker spots, we have what that could manage?

You're a fan of DJ Williams, so where do you think he fits? Because even his supporters have to believe he's definitely NOT suited to be inside in a 3-4 where you need to be part defensive tackle suited to taking on blockers and playing in traffic or AT LEAST have that mentality. DJ's a dancer when he's not blitzing. I figure he MIGHT be able to play OLB because he's a pretty good blitzer, good size, and would be useful in coverage.

So MAYBE we have one spot filled. Then we need to hope that Doom or Moss can be effective? Doom maybe, but Moss? How can you be effective standing up when you can't in a down stance?

So we need to just be hopeful that we can nail:
Two solid noses
Thomas and Robertson transition effectively
DJ, Larsen, Woodyard can find a spot
At LEAST ONE more ILB that can thump

...and that's before addressing the safety position and getting some decent corner depth for our injury prone aging starters.

Of course, there would be serious question marks with the switch that you've outlined, but would it be any better sticking with the 4-3? I actually think it'd be worse. Because unless Moss and Crowder turn the corner we have some serious DL work to do because that is the backbone of the 4-3. The problem is that the sort of players that could help are scarce and expensive. The backbone of the 3-4 are the linebackers, and we have little something to work with there. I think DJ could be an effective 3-4 ILB. Out of Woodyard, Larsen, and Bailey someone can fill the other inside slot. Dumervil, Moss and Crowder can compete to fill at least one of the OLB spots. If we are real lucky, another of them transitions well and takes the other spot. If not, get someone in FA and/or the draft. The DL just needs some space eaters, so Thomas and Robertson man the ends, then get a stop gap in FA and draft someone to groom.

Not that this scenario is ideal by any means. But I honestly think it will be less tricky to put together a passable defense with a 3-4 switch than it will be to stick with the 4-3. Sticking with the same scheme means we've got to find at least two quality DL, and that will be difficult to do given the market.

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 03:00 PM
DJ Williams would play Ray Lewis in our 3-4. Ray-Ray doesn't like taking on blocks either. Bart Scott plays the thumper ILB.

Woodyard is NOT a 3-4 OLB. Sorry, guys.

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 03:02 PM
Woodyard is NOT a 3-4 OLB. Sorry, guys.

He certainly does not have the prototypical size you look for. On the other hand, he went undrafted because he does not have prototypical size for any scheme. There are some players who are able to transcend their perceived physical limitations. I think he'd have a chance, especially if we used him as a rotational player to keep his body from wearing down.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 03:04 PM
Lets do a front seven break down for each, since safety is a need regardless.

4-3
LDE: Dumervil (but only on passing downs)
NT: ???
UT: Thomas
RDE: ???
WLB: DJ
MLB: Larsen?
SLB: Boss?

3-4
LDE: Peterson?
NT: ???
RDE: Thomas
WOLB: Dumervil/Moss?
WILB: DJ
SILB: Larsen?
SOLB: Boss? Crowder?

DJ became pretty comfortable at MLB by the end of 2007. He wasn't great there but he did a solid job. He's obviously most comfortable at WLB. Thankfully the WILB job in the 3-4 is a combination of the two, a position he'd probably fit into quite well.

Dumervil's only chance to be an every down player in the NFL is to either 1. play with the biggest, baddest hog mollies to ever man a DT tandem with a fierce run stopping OLB behind him or 2. change to a 3-4 OLB. So I don't see how we're losing anything by taking the risk that he can be an every down guy in that system, versus the situational pass rush DE that nearly every team we played this year neutralized without much work.

Thomas has been misused his entire time here, I think he's equally fit for the UT 4-3 role as he is a 3-4 DE role.

That basically goes over the three "keepers" in our front seven right there.

And again, Robertson is gone. His cap number is stupid, he won't be back.

I'm guessing your problem comes from thinking that both ILBs in a 3-4 play the same role, and that both DTs in a 4-3 play the same role. They don't, and if you don't have guys who fit the specific needs of their repsective part of that tandem then you don't have a productive defense.

Case in point, the problem with our DTs isn't that Robertson and Thomas are both horrible, but that neither one is suited to being a straight up run stuffing gap controller. They're both penetrating DTs. By not having a guy who can play the 4-3 NT position we end up forcing two UTs into the lineup and neither of them can play effectively as a result.

You have to notice than in your 3-4 projections, only 2 positions weren't followed by question marks, and DJ SHOULD have been. And, NO, I'm certainly aware of different roles for different positions, in fact, I started the Thomas for DE trend:

I think it's very doable. A 5 tech "DE" is a LOT like a 3 tech DT. Guys that could probably succeed in new spots:

DE: Thomas
NT: NEW
DE: Robertson

(I've grown some distaste for some of the 3-4 prototype rookies and FA availability since then to think it'd be more prudent to shift slowly)

...but the difference is significantly more dramatic for 4-3 DTs than it is for ILBs and how you're describing that weak side inside linebacker spot is simply inaccurate.

A mix between a MLB and a WLB? That's beyond inaccurate. In fact, MLB still doesn't accurately portray the toughness required for the spot. The offense IS going to dictate which 3-4 ILB gets tagged by someone and that WILL happen. DJ's going to take a pounding at that spot. That "W"ILB spot is where thumpers like Bart Scott and Tedy Bruschi play and I'm certain you won't confuse either of them with 4-3 Will traits, will you? Woodyard has a better shot at the interior than DJ even without the weight.

The judgments on Dumervil's opportunities are also short-sighted. He has size limitations but has developed well and every year against the run and is only a third year player. The larger concern is not making him an every down player as much as keeping him fresh to fully utilize his pass rushing ability.

elsid13
01-21-2009, 03:06 PM
DJ Williams would play Ray Lewis in our 3-4. Ray-Ray doesn't like taking on blocks either. Bart Scott plays the thumper ILB.

Woodyard is NOT a 3-4 OLB. Sorry, guys.

you're right about Woodyard, but that doesn't mean he won't see snaps in the nickle, dime packages as LB. Even if the 3/4 is the base we will see penalty of nickle formations.

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 03:07 PM
He certainly does not have the prototypical size you look for. On the other hand, he went undrafted because he does not have prototypical size for any scheme. There are some players who are able to transcend their perceived physical limitations. I think he'd have a chance, especially if we used him as a rotational player to keep his body from wearing down.

3-4 OLBs are small DE's. Woodyard is a small LB, with almost no pass rushing skills. He'd be useless at OLB. He'd have a fighting shot at ILB, but I doubt it. He's a prototypical 4-3 WLB, which means that's about all he can play.

Listen, he played great for us when DJ went down, I get that. But he's not the next Derrick Brooks. And even Derrick Brooks couldn't play OLB in a 3-4.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 03:14 PM
Of course, there would be serious question marks with the switch that you've outlined, but would it be any better sticking with the 4-3? I actually think it'd be worse. Because unless Moss and Crowder turn the corner we have some serious DL work to do because that is the backbone of the 4-3. The problem is that the sort of players that could help are scarce and expensive. The backbone of the 3-4 are the linebackers, and we have little something to work with there. I think DJ could be an effective 3-4 ILB. Out of Woodyard, Larsen, and Bailey someone can fill the other inside slot. Dumervil, Moss and Crowder can compete to fill at least one of the OLB spots. If we are real lucky, another of them transitions well and takes the other spot. If not, get someone in FA and/or the draft. The DL just needs some space eaters, so Thomas and Robertson man the ends, then get a stop gap in FA and draft someone to groom.

Not that this scenario is ideal by any means. But I honestly think it will be less tricky to put together a passable defense with a 3-4 switch than it will be to stick with the 4-3. Sticking with the same scheme means we've got to find at least two quality DL, and that will be difficult to do given the market.

But how can DJ be effective on the inside?

We've spent all year talking about how DJ is best served at Will because he has coverage ability and he needs to be free to pursue and play in space.

Those are traits that completely opposed to a 3-4 ILB... Completely!

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 03:16 PM
But how can DJ be effective on the inside?

We've spent all year talking about how DJ is best served at Will because he has coverage ability and he needs to be free to pursue and play in space.

Those are traits that completely opposed to a 3-4 ILB... Completely!

He'd be more effective on the inside than on the outside where he'd just get gobbled up as he tries to dance around Marcus McNeil.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 03:19 PM
He'd be more effective on the inside than on the outside where he'd just get gobbled up as he tries to dance around Marcus McNeil.

So instead we want him inside where Dielman can continue beating his ass mercilessly like he did last season?!

DJ CAN bring it on a blitz.

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 03:19 PM
But how can DJ be effective on the inside?

We've spent all year talking about how DJ is best served at Will because he has coverage ability and he needs to be free to pursue and play in space.

Those are traits that completely opposed to a 3-4 ILB... Completely!

I think he has the ability to at least be be above average at the spot, just like when he played SAM. He won't be ideal, but we don't have an ideal scenario for defensive turnaround whether we are playing 4-3 or 3-4. It will be easier to piece together a D that relies most heavily on LBs simply because there are more of them out there and we have some guys already here who aren't completely useless. Sticking with the 4-3...well, can you name me a 4-3 DL who is likely to hit the market who won't just be another stop gap?

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 03:21 PM
So instead we want him inside where Dielman can continue beating his ass mercilessly like he did last season?!

DJ CAN bring it on a blitz.

DJ's only career sacks are mostly coverage sacks on stunts. He's never physically beaten someone for the sack like a Merriman, Ware or Harrison.

Personally, I think DJ is traded. He doesn't fit anywhere, like Woodyard.

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 03:22 PM
DJ CAN bring it on a blitz.

As an occasional blitzer in a 4-3, sure. As an every down OLB in the 3-4? Hell no. Those guys are essentially smallish DEs who have natural pass rushing ability. He is not a natural pass rusher.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 03:31 PM
I think he has the ability to at least be be above average at the spot, just like when he played SAM. He won't be ideal, but we don't have an ideal scenario for defensive turnaround whether we are playing 4-3 or 3-4. It will be easier to piece together a D that relies most heavily on LBs simply because there are more of them out there and we have some guys already here who aren't completely useless. Sticking with the 4-3...well, can you name me a 4-3 DL who is likely to hit the market who won't just be another stop gap?

Why would I want to name 4-3 DL who aren't stop-gaps when I'm advocating a slow shift to a 3-4? Why would we want permanent 4-3 players?

Peppers WILL hit the market, but he'll break the bank. Haynesworth is probably the same situation. Neither are smart buys even if we're slowly transitioning to the 3-4.

I think what you meant is what would be good players to pick up to prepare for the move?

Canty's a perfect pick-up. Is versatile enough to replace Ekuban as the LDE and is a piece in place for the 3-4 shift when ready.

Marcus Tubbs or Shaun Cody are solid pick ups as well. They can play the 4-3 nose and provide depth in the 3-4 when the time comes.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 03:32 PM
DJ's only career sacks are mostly coverage sacks on stunts. He's never physically beaten someone for the sack like a Merriman, Ware or Harrison.

Personally, I think DJ is traded. He doesn't fit anywhere, like Woodyard.

If he's traded, he REALLY hurts the cap this year and we have even less resources to target 3-4 players, dude.

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 03:35 PM
If he's traded, he REALLY hurts the cap this year and we have even less resources to target 3-4 players, dude.

When players are traded, as I understand, their contract is totally erased from the books. Therefore, zero cap hit.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 03:36 PM
As an occasional blitzer in a 4-3, sure. As an every down OLB in the 3-4? Hell no. Those guys are essentially smallish DEs who have natural pass rushing ability. He is not a natural pass rusher.

In an Audalius Thomas, Shaun Phillips, Greg Ellis, etc type role? No one's asking him to play as Ware, Merriman, Joey Porter, Harrison, etc. It's a significantly different spot.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 03:37 PM
When players are traded, as I understand, their contract is totally erased from the books. Therefore, zero cap hit.

:rofl:

You're kidding, right?

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 03:40 PM
:rofl:

You're kidding, right?

Why would trades affect cap? Teams are trading the contract. In the NBA teams regularly try to trade players with huge contracts to avoid a cap hit. I'm almost positive it's the same in the NFL.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 03:47 PM
Why would trades affect cap? Teams are trading the contract. In the NBA teams regularly try to trade players with huge contracts to avoid a cap hit. I'm almost positive it's the same in the NFL.

Signing bonuses... prorating... "dead money"... any of that ring a bell?

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 04:22 PM
3-4
LDE: Peterson?
NT: ???
RDE: Thomas
WOLB: Dumervil/Moss?
WILB: DJ
SILB: Larsen?
SOLB: Boss? Crowder?
That looks very similar to mine ... I'm still kinda skeptical about Dumervil or Crowder at WOLB (again, that's called "Jack LB"?)


DJ became pretty comfortable at MLB by the end of 2007. He wasn't great there but he did a solid job. He's obviously most comfortable at WLB. Thankfully the WILB job in the 3-4 is a combination of the two, a position he'd probably fit into quite well.Agree five-by-five there ...


Thomas has been misused his entire time here, I think he's equally fit for the UT 4-3 role as he is a 3-4 DE role.I'm glad to hear you say that ... every description I read about what a 3-4 DE should be sounds like Thomas and Peterson. And I know you're not high on Ekuban, but he sounds like the right guy for 3-4 DE too ... he was already moving inside on some passing downs.

I think most fans underrate Ekuban. We need his mean streak.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 04:29 PM
That looks very similar to mine ... I'm still kinda skeptical about Dumervil or Crowder at WOLB (again, that's called "Jack LB"?)


Agree five-by-five there ...

Good... But it's not true. Look at every "W"ILB in a 3-4 in the NFL... they're usually bigger hitters and traffic players than their ILB counterpart.

I'm glad to hear you say that ... every description I read about what a 3-4 DE should be sounds like Thomas and Peterson. And I know you're not high on Ekuban, but he sounds like the right guy for 3-4 DE too ... he was already moving inside on some passing downs.

I think most fans underrate Ekuban. We need his mean streak.

...and Ekuban's also a free agent.

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 04:30 PM
After doing a little research, you're right, Rev. There is a hit. I don't know why I thought there wasn't.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 04:35 PM
After doing a little research, you're right, Rev. There is a hit. I don't know why I thought there wasn't.

I don't know either. I wasn't laughing AT you, but more that you could have 5k posts, been here years and not know such a glaring fact.

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 04:37 PM
Good... But it's not true. Look at every "W"ILB in a 3-4 in the NFL... they're usually bigger hitters and traffic players than their ILB counterpart.

Well, the reality is that the W-ILB is quite often just the standard Will LB ... whenever the Jack LB puts his hand on the ground, as Suggs does fairly often. I would have to guess Dumervil and Moss would do the same thing pretty regularly. All these defenses will stunt plenty, change looks and sets often ... today's NFL defenses are so fluid, you can't just set these base formations into stone ... 3/4 or 4/3. They're base formations, from which the sets will change more often than not before the ball is snapped.

And while I understand there are "prototype" skills sets for certain positions ... be honest, the 3-4 defense does not require some kind of alien humanoid life form to play it ... these guys can all play football.

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 04:39 PM
I don't know either. I wasn't laughing AT you, but more that you could have 5k posts, been here years and not know such a glaring fact.

No harm done. I was wrong. I'd laugh if you were wrong.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 04:43 PM
[/COLOR]

Well, the reality is that the W-ILB is quite often just the standard Will LB ... whenever the Jack LB puts his hand on the ground, as Suggs does fairly often. I would have to guess Dumervil and Moss would do the same thing pretty regularly. All these defenses will stunt plenty, change looks and sets often ... today's NFL defenses are so fluid, you can't just set these base formations into stone ... 3/4 or 4/3. They're base formations, from which the sets will change more often than not before the ball is snapped.

And while I understand there are "prototype" skills sets for certain positions ... be honest, the 3-4 defense does not require some kind of alien humanoid life form to play it ... these guys can all play football.

If you'd like to use Baltimore as an example, then compare which skill sets Bart Scott and DJ Williams have in common aside from physical stature?

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 04:44 PM
If that doesn't work for you, feel free to use:

Ayodele
Zach Thomas
Tedy Bruschi
Larry Foote

or any other, really.

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 04:52 PM
Compare which skill sets Bart Scott and DJ Williams have in common aside from physical stature?ASIDE FROM physical stature?! Oh I see ... "But other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" :~ohyah!:

You D.J. haters crack me up almost as much as the Ramsey haters ... ROFL!

Inkana7
01-21-2009, 04:53 PM
ASIDE from physical stature?! Oh I see ... "But other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" :~ohyah!:

You D.J. haters crack me up almost as much as the Ramsey haters ... ROFL!

DJ isn't a physical player. Go watch Bart Scott, just in the last game. He was blowing up GUARDS.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 04:57 PM
ASIDE FROM physical stature?! Oh I see ... "But other than that, how did you like the play, Mrs. Lincoln?" :~ohyah!:

You D.J. haters crack me up almost as much as the Ramsey haters ... ROFL!

Okay........... Drek and SoCal are big DJ supporters, and both will admit that playing in traffic and engaging blockers are NOT his game. Because, it's NOT. He's a big boy but doesn't play like it. That's just fact.

elsid13
01-21-2009, 04:59 PM
When players are traded, as I understand, their contract is totally erased from the books. Therefore, zero cap hit.

The entire salary plus bonus hit the cap of the team letting him go. That the reason that Robinson had to rework his deal to come here and restructure his signing bonus to roster bonus.

elsid13
01-21-2009, 05:02 PM
No harm done. I was wrong. I'd laugh if you were wrong.

That why I laugh every time someone say we should trade Champ or DJ. Their cap hit would destory Denver cap. If were trade someone it would be Doom because of the low cap number and were he stand on his rookie deal

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 05:05 PM
He's a big boy but doesn't play like it. That's just fact.DJ isn't a physical player. Go watch Bart Scott, just in the last game. He was blowing up GUARDS.

Well, I guess I'll respond in as nicely as I can, "I think you're wrong."

But who am I to argue? You guys must be right. So we should ask for what, a 5th rounder for DJ? Why tf did Goodman and Shanahan pay him so much money?! Those guys are dumasses, they should have listened to you guys. ;D

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 05:09 PM
Well, I guess I'll respond in as nicely as I can, "I think you're wrong."

But who am I to argue? You guys must be right. So we should ask for what, a 5th rounder for DJ? Why tf did Goodman and Shanahan pay him so much money?! Those guys are dumasses, they should have listened to you guys. ;D

Because he was a 4-3 player on a 4-3 team... why do you think that same off-season they moved him from the interior back to the outside?

And find a post where I said "Trade DJ"?

And instead of "I think you're wrong" why not throw down some genuine football analysis. Find some examples of DJ taking on a guard and making a play? What about taking on a full back in an ISO and making the play? Anything applicable to him playing inside in a 3-4?

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 05:11 PM
That why I laugh every time someone say we should trade Champ or DJ. Their cap hit would destory Denver cap. If were trade someone it would be Doom because of the low cap number and were he stand on his rookie deal

That's yet another good reason to support DJ and Champ ... these are our best players, and yet these guys and Popps just love to knock them, and suggest we trade them away. It's like self-cannibalizing, eating your own limbs!!!!

Forget the fact that Shanahan and Goodman made DJ our second highest paid defensive player just 6 months ago, we MUST trade D.J.!! WE KNOW BETTER! :oyvey:

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 05:17 PM
That's yet another good reason to support DJ and Champ ... these are our best players, and yet these guys and Popps just love to knock them, and suggest we trade them away. It's like self-cannibalizing, eating your own limbs!!!!

Forget the fact that Shanahan and Goodman made DJ our second highest paid defensive player just 6 months ago, we MUST trade D.J.!! WE KNOW BETTER! :oyvey:

Now you're just being obnoxious or downright illiterate. Baseless accusations. I've suggested DJ get tried at playing an OLB spot in a 3-4, not be traded. It would do well to get your facts straight.

broncogary
01-21-2009, 05:24 PM
Forget the fact that Shanahan and Goodman made DJ our second highest paid defensive player just 6 months ago, we MUST trade D.J.!! WE KNOW BETTER! :oyvey:

I thought Dre Bly was our second highest paid defensive player.

Drek
01-21-2009, 05:37 PM
You have to notice than in your 3-4 projections, only 2 positions weren't followed by question marks, and DJ SHOULD have been. And, NO, I'm certainly aware of different roles for different positions, in fact, I started the Thomas for DE trend:
And? All but two are legitimate questions in the 4-3 as well. So how is that any better?

And maybe DJ should be a question, but his cap number says he can't be. He plays a spot, locked in, no matter what because the money is too big to do anything else about it.

The judgments on Dumervil's opportunities are also short-sighted. He has size limitations but has developed well and every year against the run and is only a third year player. The larger concern is not making him an every down player as much as keeping him fresh to fully utilize his pass rushing ability.
Seriously? He got ate up on the run all this year, in fact I'd say he regressed almost across the board this past season. Probably largely due to the horrible coaching but when asked to basically just play run defense he still sucked. Thats a pretty good indicator he's never going to come around in that capacity.

If that doesn't work for you, feel free to use:

Ayodele
Zach Thomas
Tedy Bruschi
Larry Foote

or any other, really.

Ayodele - played WLB in Jacksonville before going to a 3-4 team.

Thomas - plays next to Bradie James. Not really a thumper and backed up by Bobby Carpenter who wasn't an MLB/ILB himself in college before going to the 3-4.

Bruschi - former DE in college who has since played next to a bunch of smaller, faster, LBs?

Foote - plays next to Farrior who is more the pounder of those two, and is backed up by Lawrence Timmons, a guy who was a WLB prospect coming out of school.

I don't see how your examples work well at all. Ray Lewis, Karlos Dansby, and Takeo Spikes are guys with similar skills to DJ who have played ILB in the 3-4.

Also, the offense shouldn't be dictating what assignments your ILBs have to pick up if your DL is doing their job, and as Buff said, when you go to the heavy left or right lineups of the 3-4 the ILBs are basically playing in space like an OLB.

If your big hang up on the 3-4 is somehow finding a home for DJ then why should we try moving period? He's a big cap hit for at least the next three years. So what, just muddle through until we can dump him and then we can transition in the midst of the offense's prime?

If the coaching staff ever wants to go to the 3-4 they need to get the growing pains over now while assembling the talent or its just going to be a big headache we're putting off for down the road when we should start being competitive.

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 05:43 PM
Now you're just being obnoxious or downright illiterate. Baseless accusations. I've suggested DJ get tried at playing an OLB spot in a 3-4, not be traded. It would do well to get your facts straight.

"Obnoxious?" "Downright illiterate?" I didn't even mention your name Rev ... and I don't recall you advocating trade. And while I did knock your Bart Scott comparison, it was hardly "obnoxious" or an "accusation," I just think D.J. is as good a player as Bart Scott. Hell, if you surround ME with Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs and Adelius Thomas, I'LL even make a few tackles ... ;D

The truth is, many people here make the confounding suggestion we trade DJ, which is imo a ridiculous idea, and is NOT gonna happen. And then there's Popps, who was so obsessed with knocking DJ he started 4 threads and 2 separate polls about D.J. Williams in just the first week after the season ended. He's free to do so of course, but I think our attention would be better focused elsewehere ... almost anywhere else but on DJ Williams.

Gosh, I hope I "got my facts straight" this time ... ::)

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 05:46 PM
I thought Dre Bly was our second highest paid defensive player.I dunno ... DJ was just re-signed this past August, and as I recall he was supposedly our second highest paid defender. I could be wrong, there's a lotta ways to slice those deals of course.



I'm also a bit defensive about DJ because he has really soldiered on as a team player through Ian-freaking-Gold all the ridiculous position changes, when he couldda left in free agency. He had an eye-opener rookie year, and I think he got hosed the next three. Then he's finally back where he belongs this year, leading the NFL in tackles, 2.5 sacks in 6 games, and BOOM, DL ... :(

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 05:46 PM
And? All but two are legitimate questions in the 4-3 as well. So how is that any better?

And maybe DJ should be a question, but his cap number says he can't be. He plays a spot, locked in, no matter what because the money is too big to do anything else about it.


Seriously? He got ate up on the run all this year, in fact I'd say he regressed almost across the board this past season. Probably largely due to the horrible coaching but when asked to basically just play run defense he still sucked. Thats a pretty good indicator he's never going to come around in that capacity.



Ayodele - played WLB in Jacksonville before going to a 3-4 team.

Thomas - plays next to Bradie James. Not really a thumper and backed up by Bobby Carpenter who wasn't an MLB/ILB himself in college before going to the 3-4.

Bruschi - former DE in college who has since played next to a bunch of smaller, faster, LBs?

Foote - plays next to Farrior who is more the pounder of those two, and is backed up by Lawrence Timmons, a guy who was a WLB prospect coming out of school.

I don't see how your examples work well at all. Ray Lewis, Karlos Dansby, and Takeo Spikes are guys with similar skills to DJ who have played ILB in the 3-4.

Also, the offense shouldn't be dictating what assignments your ILBs have to pick up if your DL is doing their job, and as Buff said, when you go to the heavy left or right lineups of the 3-4 the ILBs are basically playing in space like an OLB.

If your big hang up on the 3-4 is somehow finding a home for DJ then why should we try moving period? He's a big cap hit for at least the next three years. So what, just muddle through until we can dump him and then we can transition in the midst of the offense's prime?

If the coaching staff ever wants to go to the 3-4 they need to get the growing pains over now while assembling the talent or its just going to be a big headache we're putting off for down the road when we should start being competitive.

That's completely misunderstanding just about everything I said.

As per Thomas, Foote, Bruschi and Ayodele, none of those guys match up with DJ. And they're the ones that play "W"ILB in the 3-4, which is what you suggested. Ray Lewis only compares with DJ in terms of speed, he's a guy that handles blockers without fail and also plays the left ILB spot, which you didn't place DJ at. As for Dansby, if you add up all of his 3-4 experience even just in # of plays (not even games), you'd be able to do it before running out of toes to count on.

...and, no, I'm not concerned about a spot for DJ, and you also misunderstood my comments on Marcus Thomas. What I'm doing is SHOWING you that your projected 3-4 spots include ONE out of 7 seven spots that aren't either blank or highlighted by serious question marks. That's all. It WILL create more holes. If we want to be as competitive as possible as soon as possible, patience with the shift is probably the BEST idea unless FA and the draft become magical.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 05:48 PM
"Obnoxious?" "Downright illiterate?" I didn't even mention your name Rev ... and I don't recall you advocating trade. And while I did knock your Bart Scott comparison, it was hardly "obnoxious" or an "accusation," I just think D.J. is as good a player as Bart Scott. Hell, if you surround ME with Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs and Adelius Thomas, I'LL even make a few tackles ... ;D

The truth is, many people here make the confounding suggestion we trade DJ, which is imo a ridiculous idea, and is NOT gonna happen. And then there's Popps, who was so obsessed with knocking DJ he started 4 threads and 2 separate polls about D.J. Williams in just the first week after the season ended. He's free to do so of course, but I think our attention would be better focused elsewehere ... almost anywhere else but on DJ Williams.

Gosh, I hope I "got my facts straight" this time ... ::)

You know exactly what you were inferring, counsel. Or which people were you referring to by saying "yet these guys"?

Curious, Buff, curious. Man'ing up and owning it earns more respect in my book.

broncogary
01-21-2009, 05:49 PM
I dunno ... DJ was just re-signed this past August, and as I recall he was supposedly our second highest paid defender. I could be wrong, there's a lotta ways to slice those deals of course.

I'm not really in favor of getting rid of DJ, because I don't think we'll get value, but his contract was almost identical to the contract the Texans signed Eric Winston to, except it was 5 years instead of 6. And I'm pretty sure not many people on this board even know who Eric Winston is.

DJ's contract was just an average LB contract.

On edit, it was probably a top 20 LB contract.

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 05:55 PM
You know exactly what you were inferring, counsel. Or which people were you referring to by saying "yet these guys"?

Curious, Buff, curious. Man'ing up and owning it earns more respect in my book."Owning it"? Okay, if you want to think I was referring to you when I said "these guys," that's okay. But I never thought you didn't like DJ ... I was thinking mostly about Popps (who's not even in here now) and one of the several guys who DID suggest we trade him, I think it was Inkana.

That post just doesn't seem obnoxious to me ... pretty sarcastic, but not offensive.

Rev, I think of you as very well-informed, better than me, and as a friend. No offense, honestly.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 06:00 PM
"Owning it"? Okay, if you want to think I was referring to you when I said "these guys," that's okay. But I never thought you didn't like DJ ... I was thinking mostly about Popps (who's not even in here now) and one of the several guys who DID suggest we trade him, I think it was Inkana.

That post just doesn't seem obnoxious to me ... pretty sarcastic, but not offensive.

Rev, I think of you as very well-informed, better than me, and as a friend. No offense, honestly.

It's a waste of thread space and a tangent, but you made the plural comment and then mentioned Popps seperately... verrrrrrrrrrry suspicious...

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 06:02 PM
DJ's contract was just an average LB contract.

On edit, it was probably a top 20 LB contract.


Top 20 LBs in the league is pretty good .... is there any source to specify that? MNaybe Eddie Mac will know ....

But how high would his contract have been if he had stayed at Will LB all along? The fact he was a team player and made room for ... *gulp* ... Ian-freaking Gold for two years, meant he was playing out of position for THREE YEARS after his impressive rookie year.

Again .... when he finally got back to his proper position 6 months ago, he was leading the league in tackles and had 2.5 sacks in just 6 1/2 games when he got hurt.

Need more proof? How's this: This year's 2.5 sacks is his CAREER HIGH, and he did it in 6 1/2 games.

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 06:03 PM
It's a waste of thread space and a tangent, but you made the plural comment and then mentioned Popps seperately... verrrrrrrrrrry suspicious...
Fine, I was talking about you too.


Still friends? ^5

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 06:17 PM
Fine, I was talking about you too.


Still friends? ^5

You owned it! ^5

Need more proof? How's this: This year's 2.5 sacks is his CAREER HIGH, and he did it in 6 1/2 games.

Precisely why I feel he could make it as the secondary rushing L-OLB. Cover TE's and backs, play in space, and blitz the QB.

wolf754life
01-21-2009, 07:09 PM
buff + rev = man date


you silly boys!

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 07:14 PM
buff + rev = man date


you silly boys!

You getting in on it or what, you big hunk of man?

Archer81
01-21-2009, 07:15 PM
You getting in on it or what, you big hunk of man?


Well...thats just gay right there...ROFL!


:Broncos:

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 07:19 PM
buff + rev = man date

That is NOT true!

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 07:35 PM
In an Audalius Thomas, Shaun Phillips, Greg Ellis, etc type role? No one's asking him to play as Ware, Merriman, Joey Porter, Harrison, etc. It's a significantly different spot.

3-4 OLB without exception have pass rushing skills. DJ does not have natural pass rush ability. He is a 4-3 OLB or 3-4 ILB all the way based physical skills. He just does not have the skill set to be an OLB in a 3-4.

TheReverend
01-21-2009, 07:52 PM
3-4 OLB without exception have pass rushing skills. DJ does not have natural pass rush ability. He is a 4-3 OLB or 3-4 ILB all the way based physical skills. He just does not have the skill set to be an OLB in a 3-4.

Says who? I'm extremely critical of DJ but I'll acknowledge he's a beast on the blitz.

BroncoInferno
01-21-2009, 07:58 PM
Says who? I'm extremely critical of DJ but I'll acknowledge he's a beast on the blitz.

Blitzing out of a 4-3 scheme is far different than pass rushing out of the 3-4 scheme. In the 4-3, LBs typically only blitz in surprise situations, meaning they are coming from a spot where (hopefully based on the design) the defense does not pick him up in pass protection. By "natural pass rush ability", I mean a guy who can take on an OL who KNOWS in a passing situation he will likely rush the passer and has the technique and physical attributes to defeat the OL in that situation. DJ does NOT have those skills in any sense.

wolf754life
01-21-2009, 09:44 PM
rev, buff, its all good guys, i welcome your takes, its going to be a great offseason, we actually get to rebuild our defense, its gonna be fun even if it doesn't work, i know you guys will hold everyone accountable.

~Crash~
01-21-2009, 09:48 PM
Blitzing out of a 4-3 scheme is far different than pass rushing out of the 3-4 scheme. In the 4-3, LBs typically only blitz in surprise situations, meaning they are coming from a spot where (hopefully based on the design) the defense does not pick him up in pass protection. By "natural pass rush ability", I mean a guy who can take on an OL who KNOWS in a passing situation he will likely rush the passer and has the technique and physical attributes to defeat the OL in that situation. DJ does NOT have those skills in any sense.


watch out the DJ lovers will tell you about Super DJ the cape wearer able to leap tall bilding:pimp:

~Crash~
01-21-2009, 09:50 PM
That's yet another good reason to support DJ and Champ ... these are our best players, and yet these guys and Popps just love to knock them, and suggest we trade them away. It's like self-cannibalizing, eating your own limbs!!!!

Forget the fact that Shanahan and Goodman made DJ our second highest paid defensive player just 6 months ago, we MUST trade D.J.!! WE KNOW BETTER! :oyvey:


yep Miami fell apart after letting there 2 best players go last year ... buff is right on :wiggle:

~Crash~
01-21-2009, 09:53 PM
DJ is really good at making tackles 5 yards after he missed the first tackle I wish him to go to KC so Our RB's will average 8 yards a carry when playing them .

~Crash~
01-21-2009, 09:54 PM
I am a LBer hoar and I think he is trash .... not good for him ...

Popps
01-21-2009, 10:34 PM
Says who? I'm extremely critical of DJ but I'll acknowledge he's a beast on the blitz.

The one thing you and I always agree on is that DJ is way, way overrated.

I think he's O.K. on the blitz if he's unblocked. But, he's easily blocked by any RB/FB left in there. He has no moves, and he can't run though people. I'd hardly say he's a beast.

But again, we're stuck with the guy so it's probably not worth getting into. He's going to line up somewhere.

On an unrelated note, a move to the 3-4 COULD possibly make Moss useful, at least in a back-up role. Wasn't he projected as a possible 3-4 guy coming out of school?

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 10:36 PM
The one thing you and I always agree on is that DJ is way, way overrated.

I think he's O.K. on the blitz if he's unblocked. But, he's easily blocked by any RB/FB left in there. He has no moves, and he can't run though people. I'd hardly say he's a beast.

But again, we're stuck with the guy so it's probably not worth getting into. He's going to line up somewhere.

OMG! Do you ever post on any other topic?

"We're stuck with the guy" ... do you have any idea just how silly a statement that is?





:wave:

BroncoBuff
01-21-2009, 10:43 PM
yep Miami fell apart after letting there 2 best players go last year ... buff is right on :wiggle:

That's a very good argument actually, props to you ... ^5


The weird part of all this BroncoBuff DJ Williams defending is ... I'm not even that big a fan of freaking DJ Williams! I just think he's about the very last relevant topic when it comes to personnel overhaul on this defense. Look, we had the worst safeties in the league last year - worst in the history of the Broncos. Let's talk about Oshiomoghu Atogwe or Jermaine Phillips or the TWO Tampa Bay starting safeties who are BOTH free agents and have lost their coaching staff ....

DJ simply is the LAST guy we need to analyze on this train wreck of a defense ;D

TheReverend
01-22-2009, 04:53 AM
Blitzing out of a 4-3 scheme is far different than pass rushing out of the 3-4 scheme. In the 4-3, LBs typically only blitz in surprise situations, meaning they are coming from a spot where (hopefully based on the design) the defense does not pick him up in pass protection. By "natural pass rush ability", I mean a guy who can take on an OL who KNOWS in a passing situation he will likely rush the passer and has the technique and physical attributes to defeat the OL in that situation. DJ does NOT have those skills in any sense.

First off, you do understand I suggested DJ be the secondary rushing OLB, right? That means he'd spend more time playing in space and coverage than blitzing. Secondly, when he blitzed this year, he was most successful coming through the A gap right down the middle. That's an opportunity that will certainly present itself in a 3-4. What determines the effectiveness he can have on the rush won't be what front we're running, it will be the protection scheme of the offense. If we rush 4 with DJ and they go max protect, the only chance of getting to the QB before their allotted 3 seconds is a completely blown assignment by AT LEAST one of the linemen/TE and the RB incapable of picking it up anyway. No one's talking about DJ being Shawn Merriman, but he's certainly capable of being as good as Phillips and being effective on the occasional blitz where he can be placed on the edge and even, depending on the prot schemes, get a clean shot at the QB.

TheReverend
01-22-2009, 04:55 AM
That's a very good argument actually, props to you ... ^5


The weird part of all this BroncoBuff DJ Williams defending is ... I'm not even that big a fan of freaking DJ Williams! I just think he's about the very last relevant topic when it comes to personnel overhaul on this defense. Look, we had the worst safeties in the league last year - worst in the history of the Broncos. Let's talk about Oshiomoghu Atogwe or Jermaine Phillips or the TWO Tampa Bay starting safeties who are BOTH free agents and have lost their coaching staff ....

DJ simply is the LAST guy we need to analyze on this train wreck of a defense ;D

Their secondary coach is now the head coach, fyi.

BroncoInferno
01-22-2009, 05:55 AM
On an unrelated note, a move to the 3-4 COULD possibly make Moss useful, at least in a back-up role. Wasn't he projected as a possible 3-4 guy coming out of school?

One thing that gives me hope that Moss will turn the corner is Broderick Bunkley. He was declared a bust after his first two seasons; there were even rumors that Philly thought about releasing out right at one point. This year he was a beast. Given that Moss was relatively inexperienced when we drafted him and not physically mature due to his staph infection, I still have hope he'll turn the corner, especially if we go 3-4 where he should fit in better.

BroncoInferno
01-22-2009, 06:02 AM
First off, you do understand I suggested DJ be the secondary rushing OLB, right? That means he'd spend more time playing in space and coverage than blitzing. Secondly, when he blitzed this year, he was most successful coming through the A gap right down the middle. That's an opportunity that will certainly present itself in a 3-4. What determines the effectiveness he can have on the rush won't be what front we're running, it will be the protection scheme of the offense. If we rush 4 with DJ and they go max protect, the only chance of getting to the QB before their allotted 3 seconds is a completely blown assignment by AT LEAST one of the linemen/TE and the RB incapable of picking it up anyway. No one's talking about DJ being Shawn Merriman, but he's certainly capable of being as good as Phillips and being effective on the occasional blitz where he can be placed on the edge and even, depending on the prot schemes, get a clean shot at the QB.

Phillips is 6'3" 262 pounds and played DE in college, meaning he had experience with pass rushing technique. OLB in the 3-4 have to be able to take on tackles. DJ has never shown the ability to do that.

TheReverend
01-22-2009, 06:10 AM
Phillips is 6'3" 262 pounds and played DE in college, meaning he had experience with pass rushing technique. OLB in the 3-4 have to be able to take on tackles. DJ has never shown the ability to do that.

That's dependent on how we aligment the DEs on any given play. I'm sure you won't say that we can' place DJ in a position to have a clean shot on the edge, or get a RB match up.

socalorado
01-22-2009, 06:38 AM
First off, you do understand I suggested DJ be the secondary rushing OLB, right? That means he'd spend more time playing in space and coverage than blitzing. Secondly, when he blitzed this year, he was most successful coming through the A gap right down the middle. That's an opportunity that will certainly present itself in a 3-4. What determines the effectiveness he can have on the rush won't be what front we're running, it will be the protection scheme of the offense. If we rush 4 with DJ and they go max protect, the only chance of getting to the QB before their allotted 3 seconds is a completely blown assignment by AT LEAST one of the linemen/TE and the RB incapable of picking it up anyway. No one's talking about DJ being Shawn Merriman, but he's certainly capable of being as good as Phillips and being effective on the occasional blitz where he can be placed on the edge and even, depending on the prot schemes, get a clean shot at the QB.

QFT. DJ at best is a WOLB in the 3-4 and its obvious.

rad
01-22-2009, 06:43 AM
From the other thread, wanted to link this in fairness:

From PFWeekly

Jan. 15, 2009 By Dan Parr

Broncos' McDaniels, Nolan prepare for 3-4 shift on defense


With Mike Nolan locked in as head coach Josh McDaniels’ defensive coordinator, the Broncos will shift completely to a 3-4 defense next season after experimenting with it in a limited capacity in 2008. Although McDaniels, the former Patriots O-coordinator, isn’t experienced in coaching defense, he plans to be heavily involved in that side of things. Sources in Denver say it won’t be a case of Nolan serving as a defensive “head coach” while McDaniels, 32, stays out of his way. There are some questions about the feasibility of a quick transition from a 4-3 to 3-4 in Denver since a massive overhaul in personnel usually is necessitated by a change in schemes. In the Broncos’ case, though, regardless of scheme, sweeping changes were necessary well before McDaniels and Nolan came to town. Denver was ranked 29th in defense last season, and sources say a rebuilding effort is overdue.

May have already been said, but I heard somewhere that Mickey D used to coach D to some capacity in NE.

alkemical
01-22-2009, 06:53 AM
May have already been said, but I heard somewhere that Mickey D used to coach D to some capacity in NE.

Secondary or something like that.

TheReverend
01-22-2009, 10:11 AM
rev, buff, its all good guys, i welcome your takes, its going to be a great offseason, we actually get to rebuild our defense, its gonna be fun even if it doesn't work, i know you guys will hold everyone accountable.

Thank God you cleared that up! Every post I make, I'm trying to pander for your approval.

alkemical
01-22-2009, 10:25 AM
Thank God you cleared that up! Every post I make, I'm trying to pander for your approval.

Well...you are slacking on pandering for mine...

TheReverend
01-22-2009, 10:30 AM
Well...you are slacking on pandering for mine...

Well get back to work on the odditorium!

alkemical
01-22-2009, 10:48 AM
lol... It's gonna happen. Been busy with "mirror". Almost got the first qtr done. Got 2nd edition roadmapped and 3 & 4 have the framework setup.

BroncoBuff
01-22-2009, 12:39 PM
Their secondary coach is now the head coach, fyi.

Yeah, I guess that's right ... but the point remains that both Tampa's starting safeties, Phillips and WIll Allen, are UFAs this year, and they're both ranked pretty high on Scout.com: http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2009&nid=83&lnid=83&rc=16&pid=33

Atogwe is the prize, but Spagnuolo is too good a defensive mind to permit that young ballhawk to flee ... so we need to target elsewhere.