PDA

View Full Version : In honour of Slap: It was Legal


Lidderer
01-15-2009, 10:48 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ast.kZ_8bt1KTyiIzlaYgdo5nYcB?slug=li-clear011409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2009/01/ipt/1231973170.jpg

Atlas
01-15-2009, 10:52 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ast.kZ_8bt1KTyiIzlaYgdo5nYcB?slug=li-clear011409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2009/01/ipt/1231973170.jpg

I don't get it. Who is this Slab guy??

Lidderer
01-15-2009, 10:57 PM
I dunno, I think he used to post here...a lot. He had this great thread where him and like 20 dudes were all like "IT'S ILLEGAL!"

Good stuff.

jhat01
01-15-2009, 10:57 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ast.kZ_8bt1KTyiIzlaYgdo5nYcB?slug=li-clear011409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2009/01/ipt/1231973170.jpg

the dude in your avatar needs some

Lidderer
01-15-2009, 10:59 PM
oh i think he can gain an average of 3 lbs from like 23yrs to 38 and he'll be fine, just as long as he conditions a lot.

BroncoMan4ever
01-15-2009, 11:14 PM
oh i think he can gain an average of 3 lbs from like 23yrs to 38 and he'll be fine, just as long as he conditions a lot.

dude your avatar is the before Balco picture for Barry Bonds

Dr. Broncenstein
01-15-2009, 11:14 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/PhotozOnline/Album%20Two/barry_bonds_Before_Steroids.jpg

Dr. Broncenstein
01-15-2009, 11:15 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y250/PhotozOnline/Album%20Two/Barry_Bonds_On_Steroids.jpg

Lidderer
01-15-2009, 11:18 PM
wow great pictures, holy did he really gain weigh over the years through conditioning and legal drugs?

Boy isn't that impossible? I mean no one on earth can condition as much as Bonds does and actually gain muscle, right?

Like, everyone who is big is just born that way or does roids right?

Huh, fun fact.

Also: point of thread was that all those barry-haters in that big thread were complaining about how "it was ILLEGAL!" and it wasn't.

Great day in OM history now that the facts are out.

But seriously, where's Slap? He was a good guy.

Dr. Broncenstein
01-15-2009, 11:24 PM
wow great pictures, holy did he really gain weigh over the years through conditioning and legal drugs?

Boy isn't that impossible? I mean no one on earth can condition as much as Bonds does and actually gain muscle, right?

Like, everyone who is big is just born that way or does roids right?

Huh, fun fact.

Also: point of thread was that all those barry-haters in that big thread were complaining about how "it was ILLEGAL!" and it wasn't.

Great day in OM history now that the facts are out.

But seriously, where's Slap? He was a good guy.

Condition all you want... no amount of weight lifting makes your skull bigger. Human growth hormone does.

Lidderer
01-15-2009, 11:29 PM
still missing the point my friend, still....missing...the....point.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-15-2009, 11:35 PM
Who cares whether it was legal or not? It doesn't change the fact Bonds has no integrity and ethics. And that he violated the rules and code of professional baseball.

There are still a number of witnesses that claim Bonds did illegal steroids prior to 2001 before BALCO provided him with undectable designer PEDs. In 1999, Bonds tore his elbow ligament. One of his friends said Bonds attributed the injury to his use of steroids.

This news changes nothing.

Lidderer
01-15-2009, 11:37 PM
hey you missed the point too! awesome!

Lidderer
01-15-2009, 11:38 PM
also hearty lols@ the "one of his friends said..." comment. Check out the witchhunt case study on that shadow book author and his vendetta on bonds, it's a hilarious read about obsession and crazy hatred gone awry.

Now let me resume basking....aaaaaah

Dr. Broncenstein
01-15-2009, 11:44 PM
still missing the point my friend, still....missing...the....point.

So, because Bonds did nothing technically illegal... and there was no way to test for exogenous HGH... I should think Barry the acromegalc hit 70 dingers in the twilight of his career because he was a hard worker? The skull stops growing at 24 months.... except for acromegaly or hydrocephalis.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-15-2009, 11:56 PM
FYI

Lidderer is an ASU homer who jumped on the Broncos bandwagon for four years because his man crush Jake Plummer played for the team. He hates Cutler with a passion because he took Plummer's job.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-15-2009, 11:58 PM
also hearty lols@ the "one of his friends said..." comment. Check out the witchhunt case study on that shadow book author and his vendetta on bonds, it's a hilarious read about obsession and crazy hatred gone awry.

Now let me resume basking....aaaaaah

It's not hearsay when you have several reports and cases of suspicious behavior from a number of witnesses.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 12:04 AM
Witchhunt case study? Bonds did it to himself. He was reckless. Going back to his amateur days, he's always treated people like dirt and acted like the rules didn't apply to him. Finally somebody put him in his place.

Los Broncos
01-16-2009, 12:32 AM
The clear and the cream.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 12:34 AM
FYI

Lidderer is an ASU homer who jumped on the Broncos bandwagon for four years because his man crush Jake Plummer played for the team. He hates Cutler with a passion because he took Plummer's job.

you're creeping me out a bit dude.

Also: i dont mind cutler, we actually share something quite important in common, and I really hope he learns how to not throw away games because I like him in part over that bond.

Also: um, bandwagon? hahaha, you didnt make the playoffs the year before. Maybe start paying more attention to bronco history instead of me, stalker.

dbfan4life
01-16-2009, 12:41 AM
Did the "clear" also improve his hand/eye coordination?

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 12:46 AM
Did the "clear" also improve his hand/eye coordination?

:thumbsup:

footstepsfrom#27
01-16-2009, 12:53 AM
This is a perfect example of why the off season mode SUCKS in here...here we have a thread commending one of the biggest A-holes on this board about something-or-nother while simultaneously lauding one of the biggest A-holes in pro sports who cheated his way past a sacred record by an American icon from the past. How special...

Double turd this thing to the butt.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 12:59 AM
awesome footsteps, that was my whole point in that big thread: peope just hate bonds because he's a jerk, and it has nothing to do with how what he is taking is illegal in mlb(which flashforward to 2009: it is legal! haha).

Thanks footsteps, you proved my point perfectly.

Hi-five: o/

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 01:05 AM
Did the "clear" also improve his hand/eye coordination?

Steroids gives you a faster bat and quicker hands which allows the best eye in baseball to wait just a few more nanoseconds in order to make sure it's a good pitch to swing at.

dbfan4life
01-16-2009, 01:06 AM
Just for the record, I think Bonds was 'juiced' the last half of his career. But, I do know that hitting that little round ball is harder than it seems. Bonds would have still been able to hit the ball, more than likely, not as far.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 01:11 AM
Steroids gives you a faster bat and quicker hands which allows the best eye in baseball to wait just a few more nanoseconds in order to make sure it's a good pitch to swing at.

This is actually untrue.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 01:13 AM
I mean there's actually a whole website and tons of medical journal stats and graphs just about how what you wrote is not true.

case in point: http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 01:32 AM
awesome footsteps, that was my whole point in that big thread: peope just hate bonds because he's a jerk, and it has nothing to do with how what he is taking is illegal in mlb(which flashforward to 2009: it is legal! haha).

It was still a steroid. That still doesn't make it right. Victor Conte and his athletes knew what they were doing. Nobody should be surprised the government took a long time to classify as such. Bureaucracy doesn't operate at the same pace as the real world.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 01:40 AM
It was still a steroid. That still doesn't make it right. Victor Conte and his athletes knew what they were doing. Nobody should be surprised the government took a long time to classify as such. Bureaucracy doesn't operate at the same pace as the real world.

Surely you are not naive enough to think that there have been other aids in the past that function in the same manner that are even prescribed to athletes and that receive similar clearance, right?

Seriously, brain-up, read the site, get some info in ya besides compiling my biography.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 02:03 AM
I mean there's actually a whole website and tons of medical journal stats and graphs just about how what you wrote is not true.

case in point: http://steroids-and-baseball.com/

That is one professor's opinion. It's not a majority opinion.

It's hard for anyone not to be skeptical about the impact PEDs had on Bonds' career from age 36-40. Historically, a rare player might have one or two great seasons during that timeframe of age. Bonds did not just have a couple of great seasons, he had his best five seasons of his career at the plate. On top of that, he wasn't just one of the top ten players in the game or top five, he was the best in the game by a large margin. He obliderated the all-time record books in offensive production. One could take any of five seasons Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Honus Wagner and Ted Williams put together at the plate, put into context by adjusting for their period and Bonds blows all four players out of the water with his five-year stretch.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 02:10 AM
That is one professor's opinion. It's not a majority opinion.

It's hard for anyone not to be skeptical about the impact PEDs had on Bonds' career from age 36-40. Historically, a rare player might have one or two great seasons during that timeframe of age. Bonds did not just have a couple of great seasons, he had his best five seasons of his career at the plate. On top of that, he wasn't just one of the top ten players in the game or top five, he was the best in the game by a large margin. He obliderated the all-time record books in offensive production. One could take any of five seasons Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, Honus Wagner and Ted Williams put together at the plate, put into context by adjusting for their period and Bonds blows all four players out of the water with his five-year stretch.

I guess you didnt really read the info.

read this if you want to learn: http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

or ignore it if you just want to 'believe' in what you already think instead.

Majik
01-16-2009, 02:10 AM
If my competition was trying to get an edge on me, I'd take whatever I could (legally) to stay ahead. I don't hold it against Mr. Bonds. He answered all those ambiguous questions truthfully, and that truth will set him free.

Unlike Roidger Clemens. Who blatantly lies to the world and thinks we are fools.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 02:22 AM
Surely you are not naive enough to think that there have been other aids in the past that function in the same manner that are even prescribed to athletes and that receive similar clearance, right?

BALCO is just the tip of the iceberg. There's all sorts of labs out there making new state-of-the-art PEDs. The testers and regulators are way behind the curve. 60-75% of NFL, MLB and NHL players are doping in some way. I even think NBA players are guilty contrary to public belief. I don't think the pro sports leagues are ever going to catch up to it. The adminstrative people are happy to create an illusion that they conduct stringent tests and care about it enough to appease the public. It would be too expensive for the leagues to combat it.

Down the road, I do think there's going to be a time where the "steroids in moderation" people are going to win over and the ethics of using will be an afterthought. That's when the leagues will be more concerned with gene doping.

OBF1
01-16-2009, 02:26 AM
Steroids gives you a faster bat and quicker hands which allows the best eye in baseball to wait just a few more nanoseconds in order to make sure it's a good pitch to swing at.

BS...what study told you this shiat??? Bonds always choked up on the bat and had a ultra fast swing even in college. Did you catch Barry with an old girlfriend in bed or what?

Next witness please.

OBF1
01-16-2009, 02:29 AM
It was still a steroid. That still doesn't make it right. Victor Conte and his athletes knew what they were doing. Nobody should be surprised the government took a long time to classify as such. Bureaucracy doesn't operate at the same pace as the real world.

Now you are a political science major. Don't go away mad....just go away.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 02:43 AM
They just make the same old arguments, CBF1, and basically it boils down to one small thing: they don't like him as a person, which: who cares?

Guy was the best baseball player of all time, and if he was as boring as faceless and wayne gretzky he'd be lauded like no other.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 02:45 AM
I guess you didnt really read the info.

read this if you want to learn: http://steroids-and-baseball.com/actual-effects.shtml

or ignore it if you just want to 'believe' in what you already think instead.

There's not much on that site that I haven't already read or thought about.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 03:30 AM
They just make the same old arguments, CBF1, and basically it boils down to one small thing: they don't like him as a person, which: who cares?

Guy was the best baseball player of all time, and if he was as boring as faceless and wayne gretzky he'd be lauded like no other.

I am upset with Bonds because he didn't have to stick a needle in his rear to prove his worth. He didn't have to cut corners to achieve greatness.

In 1990s, I admired Bonds. He was this generation's Mantle, Mays and Aaron. An athlete that could hit to all fields, had pop, steal, field, draw a walk, do it all (except throw, Sid Bream!). Prior to his doping, he was going to be one of the top 3-5 players of all-time. And he very well could have been the best ever without PEDs. He was a beautiful player. What happened to that guy in the oughts?

Was it really worth all the trouble he went through? The legal mess, the mud slinged at him by the press, the negative books? He used to be a handsome guy, now look at his puffy, blown up head. He's a freak! Bonds has a broken down body now. You wonder what is quality of life will be as he ages. Yes, father time catches up with all of us, but I can't help but wonder the ill-effects PEDs had on his knee and elbow ligaments (contrary to what your link said). I wish he would have kept his old physique and kept stealing 30 bases into his 40s like Rickey Henderson. Or displayed his Gold Glove caliber mitt in left. Granted when you have a 260 OPS+, your fielding and baserunning are irrelevant, but he wasn't as fun to watch in the 2000s.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 03:43 AM
BS...what study told you this shiat??? Bonds always choked up on the bat and had a ultra fast swing even in college. Did you catch Barry with an old girlfriend in bed or what?

Next witness please.

Bonds has one of the sweetest swings in baseball history. Scouts study Bonds just to get an idea of what a surefire, can't miss player looks like.

Despite his lightening quick bat, age catches up with everyone and Bonds steroids helped him become a nanosecond faster in his 36-40 years.

My problem with Bonds is that he lacked integrity as a ballplayer. He cut corners when he didn't need to.

driver
01-16-2009, 05:27 AM
:thumbsup:

No but it turned those 380' outs to 410' hr's.

HEAV
01-16-2009, 06:31 AM
This is a perfect example of why the off season mode SUCKS in here...here we have a thread commending one of the biggest A-holes on this board about something-or-nother while simultaneously lauding one of the biggest A-holes in pro sports who cheated his way past a sacred record by an American icon from the past. How special...

Double turd this thing to the butt.

Blame TJ, he thinks that the main board will fall flat without crap like this...

Jason in LA
01-16-2009, 07:34 AM
There's no question that Bonds used drugs to get big, and that he's a big douche, but I still see this trial is a big waste of time. Putting him in jail solves nothing. It's a waste of tax payers money. The state is flat broke and they're spending money on this BS?!?! This is nuts.

Jason in LA
01-16-2009, 07:37 AM
Also: i dont mind cutler, we actually share something quite important in common, and I really hope he learns how to not throw away games because I like him in part over that bond.



Somebody keep him away from Cutler. He has stalker written all over him.

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 07:51 AM
Barry Bonds is a cheater and a jerk. Jake Plummer wishes he could hold Cutler's jock and ASU sucks balls.

Rock Chalk
01-16-2009, 08:00 AM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ast.kZ_8bt1KTyiIzlaYgdo5nYcB?slug=li-clear011409&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/sp/tools/med/2009/01/ipt/1231973170.jpg

Doesnt make it right.

Rock Chalk
01-16-2009, 08:01 AM
Barry Bonds is a cheater and a jerk. Jake Plummer wishes he could hold Cutler's jock and ASU sucks balls.

I didnt read the whole thread so the second sentence makes no sense.

However, I will say Jay Cutler WISHES he could have Jake Plummers winning percentage.

Mediator12
01-16-2009, 08:05 AM
This thread is a microcosm of the either/or mentality of threads on BB's. This is the perfect situation to allow to be complex with plenty of variables and factors making a situation not just one or the other.

Here is what I think about this whole mess:

1. Barry Bonds is one of the best MLB players ever, who will forever be tainted because being one of the best was simply not good enough and he did not want to let go of his career.

2. He chose to cheat to get better, even though it might not have been illegal in federal court because the burden of proof is extremely high as it should be. He never questioned what went into his body as long as it helped. That is where he cheated. He did not care, he just did whatever it took to stay on top. There is such a thing as competitive advantage, but that is not it. That requires accountability and responsibility. Those are 2 things Bonds does not believe apply to him.

3. He is not a role model and never wanted to be. He just simply would do whatever it takes to be and stay the best for as long as possible. He subscribed to "the ends justified the means" philosophy. In many ways, he did exactly what Bill Romanowski did. The one difference being that Romo admitted to what he did and did not hide when questioned.

4. The government wants to deter this behavior and the one avenue it has always used is the courts. Its a bass ackwards way to combat this, but this is what they know and can agree upon. If they really wanted to deter this behavior, they would simply cooperate with the leagues and restrict the substances allowed to be used in your body at all. IF they do NOT come from the approved list, then you get suspended. If you do it again, then you get suspended longer. A third time, and you are expelled for a 5 year period with conditions for re-entry into the league. One of those conditions would be repaying any bonuses earned when caught taking said substance before reinstatement. 5 years is an eternity for Sports and would be the real deterrent.

5. Integrity overall in this country has gone to hell in a handbasket. This is just a small instance of one person believing their personal autonomy outweighs adherring to any rules. If I can get away with it, I will try because the cost is worth the risk. It is in the fabric of our society, and more people hold this belief than do not. It is not going to change any time soon unless the attitude behind it changes, and I am not going to hold my breath on that one.

2KBack
01-16-2009, 08:29 AM
I just want to mention that I'm an ASU homer, but dislike Barry Bonds.

also, Bonds is no Ken Griffey Junior

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 08:30 AM
I didnt read the whole thread so the second sentence makes no sense.

However, I will say Jay Cutler WISHES he could have Larry Coyer's defense.
I fixed your post.

brncs_fan
01-16-2009, 08:46 AM
This thread is a microcosm of the either/or mentality of threads on BB's. This is the perfect situation to allow to be complex with plenty of variables and factors making a situation not just one or the other.

Here is what I think about this whole mess:

1. Barry Bonds is one of the best MLB players ever, who will forever be tainted because being one of the best was simply not good enough and he did not want to let go of his career.

2. He chose to cheat to get better, even though it might not have been illegal in federal court because the burden of proof is extremely high as it should be. He never questioned what went into his body as long as it helped. That is where he cheated. He did not care, he just did whatever it took to stay on top. There is such a thing as competitive advantage, but that is not it. That requires accountability and responsibility. Those are 2 things Bonds does not believe apply to him.

3. He is not a role model and never wanted to be. He just simply would do whatever it takes to be and stay the best for as long as possible. He subscribed to "the ends justified the means" philosophy. In many ways, he did exactly what Bill Romanowski did. The one difference being that Romo admitted to what he did and did not hide when questioned.

4. The government wants to deter this behavior and the one avenue it has always used is the courts. Its a bass ackwards way to combat this, but this is what they know and can agree upon. If they really wanted to deter this behavior, they would simply cooperate with the leagues and restrict the substances allowed to be used in your body at all. IF they do NOT come from the approved list, then you get suspended. If you do it again, then you get suspended longer. A third time, and you are expelled for a 5 year period with conditions for re-entry into the league. One of those conditions would be repaying any bonuses earned when caught taking said substance before reinstatement. 5 years is an eternity for Sports and would be the real deterrent.

5. Integrity overall in this country has gone to hell in a handbasket. This is just a small instance of one person believing their personal autonomy outweighs adherring to any rules. If I can get away with it, I will try because the cost is worth the risk. It is in the fabric of our society, and more people hold this belief than do not. It is not going to change any time soon unless the attitude behind it changes, and I am not going to hold my breath on that one.

Wholeheartedly agree, especially about the integrity part. If you need a rule to tell you that something is wrong, then you need to go have a heart to heart with your conscience. If you are one of the people saying that you would have done the same thing in his shoes, then you are part of the problem and a contributor to moral decay.

If it is sports we call it a competitive advantage...in business we call it a felony.

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 09:39 AM
5. Integrity overall in this country has gone to hell in a handbasket. This is just a small instance of one person believing their personal autonomy outweighs adherring to any rules. If I can get away with it, I will try because the cost is worth the risk. It is in the fabric of our society, and more people hold this belief than do not. It is not going to change any time soon unless the attitude behind it changes, and I am not going to hold my breath on that one.

I think this is a myth. You go back to the forties, the 20's, the Gilded age, the Civil War, the Revolution, Roman times; There was never a magical time when people were less self-serving and dirty. There will always be people of integrity and there will always be douche bags. Everyone has a little bit of both in them anyway. I don't believe "the good ol' days" were any better or worse than today. In fact specifically speaking, steroid use was off the charts in the 70's. So I don't buy that the country is going down the drain and that if things were like the "old days" we'd all be a bunch of saints.

2KBack
01-16-2009, 09:59 AM
I think this is a myth. You go back to the forties, the 20's, the Gilded age, the Civil War, the Revolution, Roman times; There was never a magical time when people were less self-serving and dirty. There will always be people of integrity and there will always be douche bags. Everyone has a little bit of both in them anyway. I don't believe "the good ol' days" were any better or worse than today. In fact specifically speaking, steroid use was off the charts in the 70's. So I don't buy that the country is going down the drain and that if things were like the "old days" we'd all be a bunch of saints.

I think the difference is that today as a population people love to tear down the elite. Everyone loves watching some one rich and famous fall from grace. Where back in the day people preferred to see their heroes untainted, so their exploits often went ignored.

TheDave
01-16-2009, 10:02 AM
I think this is a myth. You go back to the forties, the 20's, the Gilded age, the Civil War, the Revolution, Roman times; There was never a magical time when people were less self-serving and dirty. There will always be people of integrity and there will always be douche bags. Everyone has a little bit of both in them anyway. I don't believe "the good ol' days" were any better or worse than today. In fact specifically speaking, steroid use was off the charts in the 70's. So I don't buy that the country is going down the drain and that if things were like the "old days" we'd all be a bunch of saints.

Completely agree... "Cheating" in sport has been written about since the first Olympic games... this is nothing new.


Just as a side note: If the federal government had no laws against this chemical and MLB had no policy at all during this time... Then how do we call it cheating?

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 10:16 AM
I think the difference is that today as a population people love to tear down the elite. Everyone loves watching some one rich and famous fall from grace. Where back in the day people preferred to see their heroes untainted, so their exploits often went ignored.

That's a myth too. All those nursery rhymes were about the elite because the common folk loved to see them get egg on their face. The French Revolution tells you how much people idolized their heroes. Then there's Jesus.

No that's not new either. People act like there's a difference in how people behave now versus how they've behaved in years past. Some of the norms and styles have shifted but overall behavior has altered very little when you cut through the crap.

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 10:20 AM
Completely agree... "Cheating" in sport has been written about since the first Olympic games... this is nothing new.


Just as a side note: If the federal government had no laws against this chemical and MLB had no policy at all during this time... Then how do we call it cheating?

People want to see people do things of their own power without enhancements. It seems more pure to them. Now we wear shoes with high grade plastics, wear specialized materials, along with host of other "foreign materials" to enhance our abilities. Contact lenses are an artificial enhancement. There is a line and its obviously very debatable where that line is or if it should even exist at all. I think most people feel taking a chemical that makes your body grow and heal better than the average person's violates the spirit of sportsmanship, even if it is legal. I know you don't think so, but I do and so do most others. I think some modicum of purity should be maintained in sports and that's a bit too far for me.

2KBack
01-16-2009, 10:29 AM
That's a myth too. All those nursery rhymes were about the elite because the common folk loved to see them get egg on their face. The French Revolution tells you how much people idolized their heroes. Then there's Jesus.

No that's not new either. People act like there's a difference in how people behave now versus how they've behaved in years past. Some of the norms and styles have shifted but overall behavior has altered very little when you cut through the crap.

I think the offending behaviours haven't really changed, but attitudes towards them very much have. For better or worse, celebrities don't get the preferential treatment they used to.

As for "performance enhancements," the line of what is okay and what isn't seems a bit arbitrary. One supplement is fine, another isn't. Some stimulants are illegal, and then we see 5 hour energy commercials with Umeniyora in them. Recievers gloves are fine, but stickum isn't. It's all maddeningly inconsistant.

Jason in LA
01-16-2009, 10:32 AM
However, I will say Jay Cutler WISHES he could have Jake Plummers winning percentage.

Jake should be very thankful that he had a good defense and running game, because if he had to work with what the Broncos rolled out on the field the last two years, he would have been just as bad as his days with the Cards.

TheDave
01-16-2009, 10:43 AM
People want to see people do things of their own power without enhancements. It seems more pure to them. Now we wear shoes with high grade plastics, wear specialized materials, along with host of other "foreign materials" to enhance our abilities. Contact lenses are an artificial enhancement. There is a line and its obviously very debatable where that line is or if it should even exist at all. I think most people feel taking a chemical that makes your body grow and heal better than the average person's violates the spirit of sportsmanship, even if it is legal. I know you don't think so, but I do and so do most others. I think some modicum of purity should be maintained in sports and that's a bit too far for me.

I completely understamd your POV, it's just that when there are no laws against it's use i find it hard to lable some one a cheater.

In my world i expect professional athletes to push the envelope when it comes to their body. Whether it be chemical, cutting edge physical training, even new age mental approaches to their sport. I expect them to seek out every edge they can get. Don't get me wrong i'm in on the joke that Bonds was trying to circumvent the rules (especially with his use of HGH), but it is a fair topic of discussion... what exactly is "cheating"

There was a time when Creatine was a little known substance that has remarkable effects on performance. Now its use is almost universal... Were the early users that took this supplement "cheaters"? What about non diabetic users of insulin? Non asmatic's who use clenbuterol for it's muscle sparing properties while cutting weight? Was Brett Farve a cheater when he abused Pain meds?

Point is there are a lot of "Gray Areas" and i find it curious what people think...

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 10:43 AM
I think the offending behaviours haven't really changed, but attitudes towards them very much have. For better or worse, celebrities don't get the preferential treatment they used to.

As for "performance enhancements," the line of what is okay and what isn't seems a bit arbitrary. One supplement is fine, another isn't. Some stimulants are illegal, and then we see 5 hour energy commercials with Umeniyora in them. Recievers gloves are fine, but stickum isn't. It's all maddeningly inconsistant.

I'll agree with that. Mass media is a very new thing and certainly it has changed the treatment of certain peoples. The attitudes and reactions of people aren't much different, though.

Popps
01-16-2009, 10:43 AM
Jake should be very thankful that he had a good defense and running game, because if he had to work with what the Broncos rolled out on the field the last two years, he would have been just as bad as his days with the Cards.

Either way, the team had big problems on defense (see the playoffs) when Jake was here. At least we could run the ball a little during the Plummer years. We ran with Hillis this year, but that's about it.

But, it's fair to say that Plummer's defense could at least get teams off the field from time to time, but no lead was safe. We saw that week in and week out.

Yet, somehow... Shanahan allowed the defense to get even WORSE, and instead tinkered with the offense instead.

And, here we are... a .500 team, fading at the end of the season for a third year.

At least Shanahan provided a clear-cut template for what NOT to do going forward. (Ignoring the defensive front 7) Hopefully McDaniels and co. will take note.

Until we address the D/run-game... we'll be forcing Cutler to be pass-happy like this year, instead of a part of a system, which is the formula for playoff success.

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 10:47 AM
Point is there are a lot of "Gray Areas" and i find it curious what people think...
I think they will vary person to person like most things. Certainly legal VS. illegal is not the only qualifier to decide if something someone does is wrong.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 01:34 PM
Somebody keep him away from Cutler. He has stalker written all over him.

Probably not much to worry about it, as I'm waiting until he wins his first playoff game until I go for the facial reconstructive surgery(eg., "Doc, make me look like a sullen chipmunk, STAT!")

Mediator12
01-16-2009, 01:42 PM
I think this is a myth. You go back to the forties, the 20's, the Gilded age, the Civil War, the Revolution, Roman times; There was never a magical time when people were less self-serving and dirty. There will always be people of integrity and there will always be douche bags. Everyone has a little bit of both in them anyway. I don't believe "the good ol' days" were any better or worse than today. In fact specifically speaking, steroid use was off the charts in the 70's. So I don't buy that the country is going down the drain and that if things were like the "old days" we'd all be a bunch of saints.

I think you are missing the point, Kaylore. People readily admit that cheating is OK today. The level of self-serving is reaching new levels that include believing it is acceptable and even preferable to exploit others for your own personal benefit. If you took the same poll at any of those times in US history you mentioned, a very small few would admit that cheating or breaking the law was OK. Now, HS students in a 60/40 split say there is nothing wrong with cheating on tests. People think stealing from their employer is part of their compensation package. They are not saying they simply cheated, they are saying: So what?

Cheating and gaining an unfair advantage have gone on for millenia. The difference is that now, in this country, it is the majority believing that cheating is doing business as usual. This country was formed on the basis of people being treated equal, even though no one could seriously argue that ever has been the case. This is the first time in US history where people believe it is OK to behave in your own best interest, even when it will harm others. Just as long as I Get mine.

I agree that their will always be people at both ends of the bell curve, but the biggest difference is that the median believes cheating is the way to succeed, Shortcuts are encouraged no matter what long term Damage may occur, and that their are and should not be any consequences for doing those behaviors.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 01:43 PM
There's not much on that site that I haven't already read or thought about.

Haha, right.

I don't care about someone taking a moral stance on an issue that is almost ipso facto devoid of morality(or should be, at least, to a healthy mind), that's your perogative, and if one requires that every event in life--be it grocery shopping or watching an ESPN telecast--take on hugely significant ramafications beyond simply its narrow outcome, well so be it.

Using a PED that is legal is stupid more so than a-moral, and largely because such PEDs don't work at all in benefitting your baseball ability. Do you know the average distance change in a hit-ball that a PED provides? It's like practically zilch. Do you know how many Bonds HRs in his latter career "just barely made it over the fence"? Um, like 6 maybe. Haha.

But the problem here more than anything seems to be the tone and implication of a post like mediator's 5th point, that ascribes to sport a greater seriousness and import than it warrants, no matter its past place and/or symbolic reach. It is baseball, and these are just baseball players. That's a simple stand alone joy, and only--and always--suffers when more is heaped upon it.

He's just the wrong kinda archetype. But woo-boy, the best ever kinda baseball player.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 01:54 PM
Cheating and gaining an unfair advantage have gone on for millenia. The difference is that now, in this country, it is the majority believing that cheating is doing business as usual. This country was formed on the basis of people being treated equal, even though no one could seriously argue that ever has been the case. This is the first time in US history where people believe it is OK to behave in your own best interest, even when it will harm others. Just as long as I Get mine.

I agree that their will always be people at both ends of the bell curve, but the biggest difference is that the median believes cheating is the way to succeed, Shortcuts are encouraged no matter what long term Damage may occur, and that their are and should not be any consequences for doing those behaviors.

Ya know, this is really more like a matter of the Progress of Openness in our culture, and an ability to detect what the motivations behind capitalism really boil down to. It's not the erosion or morals, its the enlightenment of people now living in like the umpteenth generation of N. America. It's not like people are getting worse or more self-centered, they're just awakening to the basic tenets and driving forces behind a philosophy that weighs the GNP based on simply that something--anything--is bought, regardless of what the actual effect is on the society at large.

This is why it is actually a potential good thing, since no one has to go around pretending anymore that this was really some great little experiment that melded profit desire with individual satisfaction(The protestant ethos, and no doubt the M.O. and though process behind the wave of capitalism in the last century). Now that its on the table, people can make up their own mind and act rather than just thinking "hey we used to go bowling with the Johnsons on Fridays...the hell was that all about?").

But to suggest that has anything to do with baseball is to suggest too much of baseball and not enough of something else.

If Bonds represents anything more than sheer talent and determination--and no player should stand for more than this in any imagination--then he represents an individual unable and unwilling to tolerate the machinations of a drearily boring, story-hungry sect of the entertainment industry: baseball. Because he does not play into that game, and because he has no aspirations of being a role model--which he shouldn't--this makes him culpable to some, in what is perhaps the weirdest and most bizarre and misguided case of culpability-expectation since people complained about Warren Harding.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 02:23 PM
no but seriously, where's Slap?

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 02:32 PM
Using a PED that is legal is stupid more so than a-moral, and largely because such PEDs don't work at all in benefitting your baseball ability. Do you know the average distance change in a hit-ball that a PED provides? It's like practically zilch.

I have heard this argument before. I am willing to keep an open mind and listen, but this is not a majority opinion shared by a bulk of the scientific community.

But the problem here more than anything seems to be the tone and implication of a post like mediator's 5th point, that ascribes to sport a greater seriousness and import than it warrants, no matter its past place and/or symbolic reach. It is baseball, and these are just baseball players. That's a simple stand alone joy, and only--and always--suffers when more is heaped upon it.

I agree with that to an extent. Baseball is entertainment and people want to watch players do extraordinary things.

He's just the wrong kinda archetype. But woo-boy, the best ever kinda baseball player.

And you're a Bonds fanboy who has his nuts parked on your chin. You accuse others of being irrational by letting their feelings and moral judgments sway their opinions, but you have an emotional attachment to Bonds. You won't even say anything negative about him.

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 02:39 PM
I think you are missing the point, Kaylore. People readily admit that cheating is OK today. The level of self-serving is reaching new levels that include believing it is acceptable and even preferable to exploit others for your own personal benefit. If you took the same poll at any of those times in US history you mentioned, a very small few would admit that cheating or breaking the law was OK. Now, HS students in a 60/40 split say there is nothing wrong with cheating on tests. People think stealing from their employer is part of their compensation package. They are not saying they simply cheated, they are saying: So what?

Cheating and gaining an unfair advantage have gone on for millenia. The difference is that now, in this country, it is the majority believing that cheating is doing business as usual. This country was formed on the basis of people being treated equal, even though no one could seriously argue that ever has been the case. This is the first time in US history where people believe it is OK to behave in your own best interest, even when it will harm others. Just as long as I Get mine.

I agree that their will always be people at both ends of the bell curve, but the biggest difference is that the median believes cheating is the way to succeed, Shortcuts are encouraged no matter what long term Damage may occur, and that their are and should not be any consequences for doing those behaviors.

I just don't agree, Med. I think people might be being more honest with the polls. I don't believe there was ever a magical moral era from which we will never return nor do I think this country is spiraling downward to hell. I think there will always be people who make ethical choices and I think there will always be cheaters. There will be shifts too and fro as one side backlash's against the other, but I just don't see this bankrupt nation that others do. I see human nature.

Rocky Mountain Stampede
01-16-2009, 02:42 PM
If Bonds represents anything more than sheer talent and determination--and no player should stand for more than this in any imagination--then he represents an individual unable and unwilling to tolerate the machinations of a drearily boring, story-hungry sect of the entertainment industry: baseball. Because he does not play into that game, and because he has no aspirations of being a role model--which he shouldn't--this makes him culpable to some, in what is perhaps the weirdest and most bizarre and misguided case of culpability-expectation since people complained about Warren Harding.

Bonds is baseball's villian. What would the play be without a bad guy? It was actually genius that the media propped him up such. How many times did he make the front cover of newspapers or become the lead story in the news? He generated water cooler conversation, and brought MLB to non-baseball fans. There's no such thing as negative publicity. Over time, he will be appreciated more for his play, but he will always have a Ty Cobb type of stigma attached to him.

Lidderer
01-16-2009, 02:45 PM
I have heard this argument before. I am willing to keep an open mind and listen, but this is not a majority opinion shared by a bulk of the scientific community.



I agree with that to an extent. Baseball is entertainment and people want to watch players do extraordinary things.



And you're a Bonds fanboy who has his nuts parked on your chin. You accuse others of being irrational by letting their feelings and moral judgments sway their opinions, but you have an emotional attachment to Bonds. You won't even say anything negative about him.

I certainly was a fan of his play, no doubt, and while I'm not prone to parade about the sid bream incident and other barry gaffes, I can acknowledge his flaws...but enough people do that anyway that at a certain point you just speak his benefits because the other end of the discussion is always coming at him from a negative angle.

But if I'm really honest with you, I'll admit that I only care about the guy in a baseball sense, which means I really don't even care about him anymore other than for fun little threads about old topics.

There's an old thread all about this issue way back in the archives and it probably does a better job than I can do now in explaining that whole argument.

Kaylore
01-16-2009, 03:20 PM
If Bonds represents anything more than sheer talent and determination--and no player should stand for more than this in any imagination--then he represents an individual unable and unwilling to tolerate the machinations of a drearily boring, story-hungry sect of the entertainment industry: baseball. Because he does not play into that game, and because he has no aspirations of being a role model--which he shouldn't--this makes him culpable to some, in what is perhaps the weirdest and most bizarre and misguided case of culpability-expectation since people complained about Warren Harding.

LOL What, are you his dad? The guy is a cheater and jerk. I don't think he's any worse than Mcguire or whoever else cheated. I think the way he paraded his way past the records was shameless and he pissed a lot of people off that way. I love how you're pretending he's some kind of American hero. Did the press come after him extra hard because he was an ass to them? Yes and they certainly treated him worse than other found cheaters. Are all his negatives a creation of the press? No and you'd have to be moron to believe as much. I don't know why you defend him so much but it's just making you look like a lame fan boy.

Lidderer
01-17-2009, 04:24 AM
LOL What, are you his dad? The guy is a cheater and jerk. I don't think he's any worse than Mcguire or whoever else cheated. I think the way he paraded his way past the records was shameless and he pissed a lot of people off that way. I love how you're pretending he's some kind of American hero. Did the press come after him extra hard because he was an ass to them? Yes and they certainly treated him worse than other found cheaters. Are all his negatives a creation of the press? No and you'd have to be moron to believe as much. I don't know why you defend him so much but it's just making you look like a lame fan boy.

This is something strange. Nearly all of it. My point is that bonds is nothing more than JUST a ballplayer, and anyone who accords him anything greater is making a severe error in judgement: a baseball player is but a baseball player. Boy, I dont know how you treat your kids, but if that's what you call a fatherly attitude I pity them.

Where did you get 'American Hero' from?

Are all his extracurricular negatives creations from the press?, or realities? I do not care, and nor should anyone.

Here's one thing we should value today in this world above people doing then-legal PEDs or not kowtowing to the press: reading comprehension.

Northman
01-17-2009, 07:57 AM
This thread is a microcosm of the either/or mentality of threads on BB's. This is the perfect situation to allow to be complex with plenty of variables and factors making a situation not just one or the other.

Here is what I think about this whole mess:

1. Barry Bonds is one of the best MLB players ever, who will forever be tainted because being one of the best was simply not good enough and he did not want to let go of his career.

2. He chose to cheat to get better, even though it might not have been illegal in federal court because the burden of proof is extremely high as it should be. He never questioned what went into his body as long as it helped. That is where he cheated. He did not care, he just did whatever it took to stay on top. There is such a thing as competitive advantage, but that is not it. That requires accountability and responsibility. Those are 2 things Bonds does not believe apply to him.

3. He is not a role model and never wanted to be. He just simply would do whatever it takes to be and stay the best for as long as possible. He subscribed to "the ends justified the means" philosophy. In many ways, he did exactly what Bill Romanowski did. The one difference being that Romo admitted to what he did and did not hide when questioned.

4. The government wants to deter this behavior and the one avenue it has always used is the courts. Its a bass ackwards way to combat this, but this is what they know and can agree upon. If they really wanted to deter this behavior, they would simply cooperate with the leagues and restrict the substances allowed to be used in your body at all. IF they do NOT come from the approved list, then you get suspended. If you do it again, then you get suspended longer. A third time, and you are expelled for a 5 year period with conditions for re-entry into the league. One of those conditions would be repaying any bonuses earned when caught taking said substance before reinstatement. 5 years is an eternity for Sports and would be the real deterrent.

5. Integrity overall in this country has gone to hell in a handbasket. This is just a small instance of one person believing their personal autonomy outweighs adherring to any rules. If I can get away with it, I will try because the cost is worth the risk. It is in the fabric of our society, and more people hold this belief than do not. It is not going to change any time soon unless the attitude behind it changes, and I am not going to hold my breath on that one.


End thread.

Lidderer
01-17-2009, 04:40 PM
End thread.


hahahahahaha

BroncoBuff
01-17-2009, 05:19 PM
The clear and the cream.That's right ... the cream was still illegal, right?

I don't care, Bubblehead cheated, and like McGwire and Clemens before him, he should be barred from the HOF until after he's gone.

All three. Vote them in posthumously only, that's the punishment.

Cito Pelon
01-17-2009, 06:32 PM
Completely agree... "Cheating" in sport has been written about since the first Olympic games... this is nothing new.


Just as a side note: If the federal government had no laws against this chemical and MLB had no policy at all during this time... Then how do we call it cheating?

That was the problem right there.

IMO, MLB was not a legitimate sporting league from the early-80's. They obviously had a problem with juicing, but ignored it.

There was a huge debate about why the balls were jumping off the bats at record paces, but people actually thought THE BASEBALLS WERE JUICED!!!!!.

Whoo boy, it was an exhibition of naivete and ignorance. MLB became of no more importance to me than pro wrestling. Why consider it a sporting league when there's no attempt to control cheating?

Lidderer
01-18-2009, 11:21 AM
That was the problem right there.

IMO, MLB was not a legitimate sporting league from the early-80's. They obviously had a problem with juicing, but ignored it.

There was a huge debate about why the balls were jumping off the bats at record paces, but people actually thought THE BASEBALLS WERE JUICED!!!!!.

Whoo boy, it was an exhibition of naivete and ignorance. MLB became of no more importance to me than pro wrestling. Why consider it a sporting league when there's no attempt to control cheating?

Um, but the balls were 'juiced'. There was a rhode island and penn study on that very thing in fact.

Surely you're not naive or ignorant of those.

Lidderer
01-18-2009, 11:21 AM
the cream was still illegal, right?

I don't care,


.

Northman
02-04-2009, 06:01 AM
Oh's Noe's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3881897

A urine sample that Barry Bonds submitted as part of Major League Baseball's anonymous testing program in 2003 has come back positive for PEDs, according to a New York Times report.
Bonds provided samples that did not test positive under that program, but the samples were re-examined by federal authorities after they were seized in a 2004 raid, The Times reported on Tuesday, citing people familiar with the matter.
Citing a person who has reviewed the evidence in the case, The Times reported last week that authorities detected anabolic steroids in urine samples linked to Bonds that they gathered in their investigation. It remains unclear, the newspaper said, whether the '03 urine sample and the samples seized in the feds' raid in '04 are the same.
Bonds testified to a federal grand jury investigating the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative in 2003 that he used "the cream" and "the clear" but did not know they were performance-enhancing drugs. During that testimony, Bonds was asked if he ever took steroids, and he answered no.
The government alleges that Bonds lied under oath. His perjury trial is scheduled to begin March 2 in San Francisco.
Bonds' lawyers filed a motion last month asking Judge Susan Illston, who is presiding over the career home run leader's case, to exclude several pieces of evidence, including those 2003 urine samples.
Illston issued an order Monday saying that, on Wednesday morning, she will unseal some of the evidence gathered by prosecutors in the case. Illston informed defense lawyers she was rejecting their motion to file a series of documents under seal.
Among the documents to be released Wednesday are a transcript of a recorded conversation between Bonds' personal trainer Greg Anderson and Bonds' former business partner Steve Hoskins, as well as positive drug test results that prosecutors say belong to Bonds.
The defense had argued that making the material public now could hinder Bonds' ability to get a fair trial. However, Illston said she received a letter from media representatives on Jan. 30 requesting that the sealing order be lifted, and she ruled Monday that releasing the documents would not impair Bonds' Sixth Amendment right to a fair trial.
Lead prosecutor Matt Parrella declined comment. Bonds' lead attorney Allen Ruby said he would not fight the judge's unsealing order.