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fontaine
01-13-2009, 05:37 AM
Now that it's almost certain the Nolan will be the DC with Capers I'm thinking they'll be moving to a 3-4 base defense.

With that in mind here is a list of FA this offseason that are available and IMO are pretty much plug and play to come into 3-4 to give our defense a much needed boost:

DE:
1. Chris Canty: Probably the best 3-4 DE available
2. Shaun Cody: Coming out of the draft a lot of people thought he would be an ideal 3-4 guy but his career his been stunted by playing in Detroit in a 4-3 for most of the time. We could get him for cheap and he's got pretty big upside.
3. Igor Olshansky: I hate this punk but beggers can't be choosers.


LB:
1. Terrell Suggs: Nothing I can say will describe the effect a head hunter like Suggs can have in our defense. An out and out pass rusher with good skills against the run.
2. Bart Scott: Another speedy Ravens LB who excels in the Ravens 3-4
3. James Farrior: The name says it all.
4. Mike Peterson: The ideal ILB. A real thumper against the running game.

NT:
????


Safeties: The safety class is loaded with talented top notch guys who would be a vast improvement over the junk we've got back there
1. Darren Sharper
2. Jermaine Phillips
3. Osigmoghue Atogwe
4. Mike Brown
5. Gerald Sensabaugh

Not all of these guys are going to cost an arm and a leg, especially the safeties. The major money will go for a guy like Suggs or Chris Canty. The rest can be had for decent money.

Out of the current group of players in our team the only ones I can see making the transition are DJ, Thomas/Robertson as DEs, Moss/Dumervil (Maybe, just of depth as tweeners) and Champ/Bly/Williams/Paymah.

The rest can can walk, but we might be forced to stick with guys like Boss/Winborn for depth.

cutthemdown
01-13-2009, 05:53 AM
Bigger more physical outside backer like Dansby in ariz who goes 250 are ideal inside in a 3-4. The only linebacker that really can't play in a 3-4 are little tiny ones that are under 235 pounds. Winborn, Webster,Boss Bailey are just too small for anything in a 3-4. DJ is borderline and would need to be paired with a big mauler for the other inside spot.

Usually the size ratios are 240-250 inside backers, and 260 pound outside linebackers. Obviously smaller guys that are borderline in LBS will have to be physical players.

cutthemdown
01-13-2009, 05:55 AM
Also I would put Brain Dawkins on that safety list. He's older but still obvioulsy has some yrs left. Also safety's as good as him often effective for a long time.

Broncoman13
01-13-2009, 06:07 AM
Now that it's almost certain the Nolan will be the DC with Capers I'm thinking they'll be moving to a 3-4 base defense.

With that in mind here is a list of FA this offseason that are available and IMO are pretty much plug and play to come into 3-4 to give our defense a much needed boost:

DE:
1. Chris Canty: Probably the best 3-4 DE available
2. Shaun Cody: Coming out of the draft a lot of people thought he would be an ideal 3-4 guy but his career his been stunted by playing in Detroit in a 4-3 for most of the time. We could get him for cheap and he's got pretty big upside.
3. Igor Olshansky: I hate this punk but beggers can't be choosers.
*No way on Igor!!! You're right beggers can't be choosers, but you can't sell your soul to the devil either. Canty and Cody would be great fits.


LB:
1. Terrell Suggs: Nothing I can say will describe the effect a head hunter like Suggs can have in our defense. An out and out pass rusher with good skills against the run.
2. Bart Scott: Another speedy Ravens LB who excels in the Ravens 3-4
3. James Farrior: The name says it all.
4. Mike Peterson: The ideal ILB. A real thumper against the running game.

I had suggested almost the exact same cast, except Dansby instead of Peterson. I was also calibrated on Farrior signing an extended contract some short time ago.

NT:
????
There aren't any! That is why we have to look to Raji at #12 which is a slight reach, but his upside is very nice. His motor and ethic were questionable leading up to his Sr. year... stock is climbing!


Safeties: The safety class is loaded with talented top notch guys who would be a vast improvement over the junk we've got back there
1. Darren Sharper
2. Jermaine Phillips
3. Osigmoghue Atogwe
4. Mike Brown
5. Gerald Sensabaugh

Atogwe and Mike Brown were part of my "get well plan". Atogwe is one of the three FAs I wanted regardless of scheme (3-4, 4-3). He can support vs the run but is a great ball hawk coming off of a 6 FF, 5 Int season. Mike Brown, when healthy, is a very good safety with a nose for the all.

Not all of these guys are going to cost an arm and a leg, especially the safeties. The major money will go for a guy like Suggs or Chris Canty. The rest can be had for decent money.

I think Atogwe is a younger Darren Sharper. He will get a pretty good contract, probably in the neighborhood of $4-6m per season. 6 years and $28m would not surprise me.

Out of the current group of players in our team the only ones I can see making the transition are DJ, Thomas/Robertson as DEs, Moss/Dumervil (Maybe, just of depth as tweeners) and Champ/Bly/Williams/Paymah.

Maybe you just forgot them, but what about Spencer Larsen and WWIII? I think both have a spot on this defense. Sure it would be nice to see WWIII bulk up a bit, but he'll play regardless. I think it was Farrior that started off in the 225# range, right? Maybe I'm thinking of Greg Lloyd. Larsen woiuld make a nice WILB in a 3-4. Give him a smaller field to play within and he is a true thumper.

The rest can can walk, but we might be forced to stick with guys like Boss/Winborn for depth.


I had a few other pieces in my offseason plan. But on defense we're pretty close. I added a few draft prospects (Raji, Clay Mathews Jr., and Jasper Brinkley) and then some offense. Derrick Ward, Charlie Batch, and Devery Henderson.

socalorado
01-13-2009, 07:13 AM
OF all of the FAs this year, these are the guys i think can totally revamp the defense, and do it quickly.
NT
Shaun Cody- Get him for cheap. He has a huge upside, and he would be rejuvinated in DEN. Great depth for cheap.
LB
Terrell Suggs- Will cost some coin, but DEN has the $, so spend on quality. HUGE, HUGE upgrade. ProBowler, but more importantly, he would become a leader, and one who has playoff experience.
Carlos Dansby- If DEN cant sign Suggs, Danby is a great alternative. A real thumper, he can do it all.
Safety
OJ Atogwe- DEN has to make a push for this guy. Hes simply one of the best FAs to be available in a while. His #s are staggering. 6 Forced Fumbles last year. 6 FF?!?!?!? Are you kidding me?!?!? This means two things. OJ can drop the hammer, and OJ is always around the ball. Hes a ballhawk. He had 5 INTs this season. At one point in OJs NFL career last year, he had 10 picks in 14 games. Yeah, he would solve DENs huge issues at Free Safety. Whatever he costs, get him.Last time i checked, those cheap @$$ clowns in STL dont exactly like to throw money around, and i have no doubt OJ will sit on his hands and wait for the incentive laden contract with big $. Pay the man.

TonyR
01-13-2009, 07:26 AM
Come next season, the Ravens might have to get used to life without linebacker/defensive end Terrell Suggs, since they have only one franchise tag and three guys (Suggs, Ray Lewis, and Bart Scott) preparing to hit the open market if they aren’t re-signed.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/13/suggs-could-miss-title-fight/

TonyR
01-13-2009, 07:29 AM
IF EAGLES DON’T WANT DAWKINS, HE’LL GO ELSEWHERE
Posted by Mike Florio on January 11, 2009, 12:46 p.m. EST
Eagles safety Brian Dawkins, drafted by the team was back in 1996, is due to become a free agent after the season.

As of now, there’s been no serious effort to extend his deal.

FOX’s Pam Oliver reports that Dawkins will play elsewhere next season if the Eagles don’t re-sign him.

But Dawkins doesn’t think it’ll come to that.

“When that time comes [to renegotiate with the Eagles], hopefully we’ll be able to get something done, but I’m not sitting here telling you that I don’t think it’s gonna get done, because I believe it will.”

If the Eagles really wanted him, however, they’d already have a new deal done. But since he’s 35 years old, the team might want to see how he holds up through the postseason run before making any decisions about 2009.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/if-eagles-dont-want-dawkins-hell-go-elsewhere/

TonyR
01-13-2009, 07:30 AM
PANTHERS FACE BIG DECISIONS ON PEPPERS, GROSS
Posted by Josh Alper on January 11, 2009, 10:29 a.m. EST
With their season ending earlier than some expected, the Carolina Panthers will now have to turn their attention toward retaining two key players for 2009 and beyond. Offensive tackle Jordan Gross and defensive end Julius Peppers are both free agents and it may be difficult for the team to fit both under their salary cap without serious pruning elsewhere on the roster.

The Panthers are $10 million under the cap for 2009, which wouldn’t be enough to sign both men. A franchise tender to Peppers would cost in the neighborhood of $17 million and a long-term deal would average around $13 million, according to a report from the Charlotte Observer. The same report indicates that the team and Peppers’s agent Carl Carey are negotiating a deal. When asked about his desire to stay with the Panthers after last night’s game, Peppers said he wanted to make the “best decision for myself and for the Panthers’ organization.”

One way the Panthers could clear cap space would be cutting ties with Jake Delhomme, a move that probably became more likely after his six turnovers against the Cardinals. Adam Schefter reports that they’d save $6.325 million if they released the quarterback, a number that may prove too big to pass up.

UPDATE: As a reader points out, the franchise number for defensive ends quoted by the Observer seems out of whack. It was $8.879 million when Terrell Suggs was trying to be designated a defensive end last season. Peppers’ $14,137,500 was the highest cap figure for defensive ends in 2008, according to USA Today, which makes $17 million seem high indeed.

SECOND UPDATE: Actually, the $17 million isn’t out of whack. The franchise tender is the average of the top five cap figures or 120% of his previous cap figure, whichever is more. Peppers, at $14 million-plus is in the latter category.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/panthers-face-big-decisions-on-peppers-gross/

oubronco
01-13-2009, 07:32 AM
IF EAGLES DON’T WANT DAWKINS, HE’LL GO ELSEWHERE
Posted by Mike Florio on January 11, 2009, 12:46 p.m. EST
Eagles safety Brian Dawkins, drafted by the team was back in 1996, is due to become a free agent after the season.

As of now, there’s been no serious effort to extend his deal.

FOX’s Pam Oliver reports that Dawkins will play elsewhere next season if the Eagles don’t re-sign him.

But Dawkins doesn’t think it’ll come to that.

“When that time comes [to renegotiate with the Eagles], hopefully we’ll be able to get something done, but I’m not sitting here telling you that I don’t think it’s gonna get done, because I believe it will.”

If the Eagles really wanted him, however, they’d already have a new deal done. But since he’s 35 years old, the team might want to see how he holds up through the postseason run before making any decisions about 2009.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/if-eagles-dont-want-dawkins-hell-go-elsewhere/

:pray:

cmhargrove
01-13-2009, 07:34 AM
IF EAGLES DON’T WANT DAWKINS, HE’LL GO ELSEWHERE
Posted by Mike Florio on January 11, 2009, 12:46 p.m. EST
Eagles safety Brian Dawkins, drafted by the team was back in 1996, is due to become a free agent after the season.

As of now, there’s been no serious effort to extend his deal.

FOX’s Pam Oliver reports that Dawkins will play elsewhere next season if the Eagles don’t re-sign him.

But Dawkins doesn’t think it’ll come to that.

“When that time comes [to renegotiate with the Eagles], hopefully we’ll be able to get something done, but I’m not sitting here telling you that I don’t think it’s gonna get done, because I believe it will.”

If the Eagles really wanted him, however, they’d already have a new deal done. But since he’s 35 years old, the team might want to see how he holds up through the postseason run before making any decisions about 2009.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/if-eagles-dont-want-dawkins-hell-go-elsewhere/

I love Dawkins, but he might be a stretch on a rebuilding team. I would think we might look younger, but the Pats have always been able to extend careers of older players, maybe Josh agrees.

lex
01-13-2009, 07:36 AM
PANTHERS FACE BIG DECISIONS ON PEPPERS, GROSS
Posted by Josh Alper on January 11, 2009, 10:29 a.m. EST
With their season ending earlier than some expected, the Carolina Panthers will now have to turn their attention toward retaining two key players for 2009 and beyond. Offensive tackle Jordan Gross and defensive end Julius Peppers are both free agents and it may be difficult for the team to fit both under their salary cap without serious pruning elsewhere on the roster.

The Panthers are $10 million under the cap for 2009, which wouldn’t be enough to sign both men. A franchise tender to Peppers would cost in the neighborhood of $17 million and a long-term deal would average around $13 million, according to a report from the Charlotte Observer. The same report indicates that the team and Peppers’s agent Carl Carey are negotiating a deal. When asked about his desire to stay with the Panthers after last night’s game, Peppers said he wanted to make the “best decision for myself and for the Panthers’ organization.”

One way the Panthers could clear cap space would be cutting ties with Jake Delhomme, a move that probably became more likely after his six turnovers against the Cardinals. Adam Schefter reports that they’d save $6.325 million if they released the quarterback, a number that may prove too big to pass up.

UPDATE: As a reader points out, the franchise number for defensive ends quoted by the Observer seems out of whack. It was $8.879 million when Terrell Suggs was trying to be designated a defensive end last season. Peppers’ $14,137,500 was the highest cap figure for defensive ends in 2008, according to USA Today, which makes $17 million seem high indeed.

SECOND UPDATE: Actually, the $17 million isn’t out of whack. The franchise tender is the average of the top five cap figures or 120% of his previous cap figure, whichever is more. Peppers, at $14 million-plus is in the latter category.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/panthers-face-big-decisions-on-peppers-gross/

I dont know how that would work with the 3-4 and for that kind of money Id like to be more certain that he fits the system. Switching to the 3-4 possibly moved Suggs up ahead of Pepper.

The other thing, we have potentially Moss, Dumervil, Williams, Woodyard, and Larsen all possibly getting a crack at LB this year. Im not averse to getting a good LB but someone would have to go. And to be honest, they should probably make that kind of determination early on...in other words, do they want to risk seeing if the guys we currently have will work. The other thing too is the draft. I really like Zack Follett who is slotted to go in the 3-5 rounds, depending on where you look.

fontaine
01-13-2009, 07:39 AM
Also I would put Brain Dawkins on that safety list. He's older but still obvioulsy has some yrs left. Also safety's as good as him often effective for a long time.


I didn't want to include Dawkins because he's all of 35 but yeah he's an awesome player who even if he plays for a season here would be great. He would ideal if we draft a safety in the first day and let him sit for the first season to watch Dawkins do his thing.

Dedhed
01-13-2009, 07:42 AM
Terrell Suggs would be my #1 FA priority if transitioning to the 3-4. Suggs is the most underrated player on that defense. I think Dawkins would be a great signing as well.

Suggs can bring the most as a player, and Dawkins can bring the most as a leader of the defense.

I think Thomas and Robertson are possible stop gaps at NT, and we should look to the draft for a NT instead of trying to go the FA route. Stud NTs just aren't available in FA unless you're willing to break the bank. As far as the draft goes I like Peria Jerry from Ole Miss over Raji. Raji is maxed out on his from at 330, but Jerry can get to 350 and be an absolute beast in the middle.

bpc
01-13-2009, 07:42 AM
Dawkins is just what this team needs. A little heat and fire for that ass. Then again, i'm not familiar with Mike Nolan's system. It is hard to say that it will be anything near as aggressive as Jim Johnson's unit in Philly and I think Dawk feeds off that.

For what its worth, B-Dawkins is the Rodney Harrison of this offseason. A vet who will sacrifice all and everything to win, at any cost.

Bart Scott, T. Suggs, Canty and Dansby should be where we look to spend our money first. It's hard to invest a ton of money in down linemen for the 3-4 though as they are just taking up blocks for the most part. To me that takes Canty out of the equation if we're dropping dough.

HEAV
01-13-2009, 07:44 AM
James Farrior is signed through 2012. He took a lesser deal, back in March 08, to stay with the Steelers long term.

fontaine
01-13-2009, 07:44 AM
I had a few other pieces in my offseason plan. But on defense we're pretty close. I added a few draft prospects (Raji, Clay Mathews Jr., and Jasper Brinkley) and then some offense. Derrick Ward, Charlie Batch, and Devery Henderson.

I don't like Raji because of the issues you detailed already with him. I'd rather a guy like Terrance Taylor (?) who's a real run stopper and force in the middle if developed right.

I didn't forget about Larsen and WW. But I do hope our next DC does. These guys shouldn't see playing time. Sorry, it's a great feel good story but we need real players inside and not some projects.

They can fight their way for playing time through special teams and on the bench.

lex
01-13-2009, 07:55 AM
Dawkins is just what this team needs. A little heat and fire for that ass. Then again, i'm not familiar with Mike Nolan's system. It is hard to say that it will be anything near as aggressive as Jim Johnson's unit in Philly and I think Dawk feeds off that.

For what its worth, B-Dawkins is the Rodney Harrison of this offseason. A vet who will sacrifice all and everything to win, at any cost.

Bart Scott, T. Suggs, Canty and Dansby should be where we look to spend our money first. It's hard to invest a ton of money in down linemen for the 3-4 though as they are just taking up blocks for the most part. To me that takes Canty out of the equation if we're dropping dough.

Actually, isnt Rodney Harrison a FA this offseason?

cutthemdown
01-13-2009, 07:56 AM
I dont know how that would work with the 3-4 and for that kind of money Id like to be more certain that he fits the system. Switching to the 3-4 possibly moved Suggs up ahead of Pepper.

The other thing, we have potentially Moss, Dumervil, Williams, Woodyard, and Larsen all possibly getting a crack at LB this year. Im not averse to getting a good LB but someone would have to go. And to be honest, they should probably make that kind of determination early on...in other words, do they want to risk seeing if the guys we currently have will work. The other thing too is the draft. I really like Zack Follett who is slotted to go in the 3-5 rounds, depending on where you look.

Dumerville IMO is to short and not agile enough to drop back in coverage to play outside linebacker in a 3-4. He's never done it so I see that as a long shot. Moss seems to have the slightly better body for the tweener jack backer in a 3-4 but really I doubt that is something Broncos can count on.

Woodyard at under 230 pounds has no position in a 3-4 linebacker alignment IMO. He may just be a role player special teamer for Broncos.

Larsen actually has the size and playing style to possibly do well inside in a 3-4. DJ Williams would have to play more physical, and he is just under what you would like size wise, but he's pretty good football player and could probably do it.

lex
01-13-2009, 08:16 AM
Dumerville IMO is to short and not agile enough to drop back in coverage to play outside linebacker in a 3-4. He's never done it so I see that as a long shot. Moss seems to have the slightly better body for the tweener jack backer in a 3-4 but really I doubt that is something Broncos can count on.

Woodyard at under 230 pounds has no position in a 3-4 linebacker alignment IMO. He may just be a role player special teamer for Broncos.

Larsen actually has the size and playing style to possibly do well inside in a 3-4. DJ Williams would have to play more physical, and he is just under what you would like size wise, but he's pretty good football player and could probably do it.

OK, so according to you we need to fill the open spots:

LDE- Peterson
NT-
RDE- Thomas
OLB-
ILB- Larsen
ILB-
OLB-
CB- Bailey
CB- Bly/Bell
SS-
FS-

socalorado
01-13-2009, 08:25 AM
OK, so according to you we need to fill the open spots:

LDE- Peterson
NT- CODY
RDE- Thomas
OLB- WWIII
ILB- Larsen
ILB- REY REY
OLB- SUGGS
CB- Bailey
CB- Bly/Bell
SS- BROWN/BARRETT
FS- OTOGWE



WWIII-"Give the man a chance"

lex
01-13-2009, 08:35 AM
WWIII-"Give the man a chance"

Cody is not in the draft. Neither is Mays, btw. And regarding, Rey Rey, McDaniels said he wants smart players. Rey may be a little too undisciplined.

theAPAOps5
01-13-2009, 08:37 AM
Cody is not in the draft. Neither is Mays, btw. And regarding, Rey Rey, McDaniels said he wants smart players. Rey may be a little too undisciplined.

I was wondering about Cody. He hasn't declared from Alabama that I have heard.

socalorado
01-13-2009, 08:37 AM
Cody is not in the draft. Neither is Mays, btw.

Not the Cody from Bama.
Shaun Cody FA from Detroit.
I know Mays is not in the draft. Never wanted him.

theAPAOps5
01-13-2009, 08:39 AM
Ah ok Shawn Cody. Not Terrance Cody.

socalorado
01-13-2009, 08:39 AM
Cody is not in the draft. Neither is Mays, btw. And regarding, Rey Rey, McDaniels said he wants smart players. Rey may be a little too undisciplined.

*sighs* :rofl:

Rock Chalk
01-13-2009, 08:40 AM
I think Moss will stick around and be given the chance to play at OLB in a 3-4. Dumervil may be trade bait now though, I agree with the assessment that his skill set doesnt translate to an OLB in a 3-4.

theAPAOps5
01-13-2009, 08:41 AM
He likes to put his hand on the ground. Of course the guys arms are so long he can still do it crouching in a OLB stance!

montrose
01-13-2009, 09:46 AM
I think Moss will stick around and be given the chance to play at OLB in a 3-4. Dumervil may be trade bait now though, I agree with the assessment that his skill set doesnt translate to an OLB in a 3-4.

Honestly I'd try to move as many of these guys as I could. I'd stockpile picks and load up with 3-4 guys via the draft. Honestly, I'd try to move Dumervil, Moss, Crowder, Winborn, Boss, any of those guys I could to get some value back. The likelyhood they'll be moved is small, but if our defense is going to suck - I'd rather it be with 3-4 guys learning on the fly than converting 4-3 guys to unnatural positions for a year until we find suitable replacements and let them go. The only LB's I want to see kept are DJ, Larsen and Woodyard (the latter two for special teams and reserve roles).

On the DL, Peterson could be a 3-4 DE but he's a FA so I'd rather bring in an actual 3-4 DE than resign him; I'd also waive goodbye and thanks to Ekuban for a nice little career here; Robertson would've been gone because of his salary anyway; Engelberger, Shaw and Clemons can get camp looks but I'll be discouraged if they make the squad; the one guy I'd be slightly hesitant to move is Thomas. I think he could be somewhat productive as a 3-4 DE but even with him, if I got a 3rd or even a 4th for him I think I'd take it.

SonOfLe-loLang
01-13-2009, 10:10 AM
Not the Cody from Bama.
Shaun Cody FA from Detroit.
I know Mays is not in the draft. Never wanted him.

is mays staying in school or did he just not declare yet?

SonOfLe-loLang
01-13-2009, 10:12 AM
Honestly I'd try to move as many of these guys as I could. I'd stockpile picks and load up with 3-4 guys via the draft. Honestly, I'd try to move Dumervil, Moss, Crowder, Winborn, Boss, any of those guys I could to get some value back. The likelyhood they'll be moved is small, but if our defense is going to suck - I'd rather it be with 3-4 guys learning on the fly than converting 4-3 guys to unnatural positions for a year until we find suitable replacements and let them go. The only LB's I want to see kept are DJ, Larsen and Woodyard (the latter two for special teams and reserve roles).

On the DL, Peterson could be a 3-4 DE but he's a FA so I'd rather bring in an actual 3-4 DE than resign him; I'd also waive goodbye and thanks to Ekuban for a nice little career here; Robertson would've been gone because of his salary anyway; Engelberger, Shaw and Clemons can get camp looks but I'll be discouraged if they make the squad; the one guy I'd be slightly hesitant to move is Thomas. I think he could be somewhat productive as a 3-4 DE but even with him, if I got a 3rd or even a 4th for him I think I'd take it.

haha SOME of these guys have to stay...we do need to fill a roster

MagicHef
01-13-2009, 10:23 AM
I went with the idea that anyone with good size and a pulse is better than what we currently have for NT.

RDE - Thomas
NT - BJ Raji/Ron Brace/Shaun Cody/Colin Cole/Gabe Watson
LDE - Peterson
OLB - Moss/Dumervil (whoever transitions to OLB better)
ILB - Larsen
ILB - DJ
OLB - Larry English
CB - Champ
CB - Bly
FS - Oshiomogho Atogwe
SS - UFA (Jermaine Phillips, James Butler, etc.)

This leaves Woodyard and Barrett as Special Teams/Nickle Options, and allows Barrett to learn and hopefully take over SS at some point.

Drek
01-13-2009, 10:33 AM
Honestly I'd try to move as many of these guys as I could. I'd stockpile picks and load up with 3-4 guys via the draft. Honestly, I'd try to move Dumervil, Moss, Crowder, Winborn, Boss, any of those guys I could to get some value back. The likelyhood they'll be moved is small, but if our defense is going to suck - I'd rather it be with 3-4 guys learning on the fly than converting 4-3 guys to unnatural positions for a year until we find suitable replacements and let them go. The only LB's I want to see kept are DJ, Larsen and Woodyard (the latter two for special teams and reserve roles).

On the DL, Peterson could be a 3-4 DE but he's a FA so I'd rather bring in an actual 3-4 DE than resign him; I'd also waive goodbye and thanks to Ekuban for a nice little career here; Robertson would've been gone because of his salary anyway; Engelberger, Shaw and Clemons can get camp looks but I'll be discouraged if they make the squad; the one guy I'd be slightly hesitant to move is Thomas. I think he could be somewhat productive as a 3-4 DE but even with him, if I got a 3rd or even a 4th for him I think I'd take it.

Moss was talked about as a possible 3-4 OLB coming out of college if I recall and its not like he's been taught a ton of down lineman techniques. He's a perfect raw project to hang onto and will have more 3-4 upside than anything but a top 20 pick.

Dumervil is debatable and if we could get a late second or better I'd trade him, otherwise lets see how he handles the 3-4 OLB job.

Crowder is interesting. He could be turned into a 3-4 DE with a little work, but he also parallels physically like a slightly lower income Adalius Thomas. The same Adalius Thomas who was drafted in 2000 and spent most of his developmental years under Mike Nolan in Baltimore.

And I think Thomas is a better fit as a 3-4 DE than what we've been using him as to date. He desperately needs someone to teach him how to play football at the NFL level though, from the ground up.

Popps
01-13-2009, 10:35 AM
Nice thread, Fontaine.

I agree with BPC on the Dawkins, issue. He'd be a huge addition for us, but wouldn't be upset with dafting Mayes, either. I think he's got a chance to be a quick-impact guy at S, which is rare for a rookie.

As for the front 7, we have a massive job ahead of us, no matter what scheme we run. (And I haven't heard any confirmation that we're definitely going 3/4 yet.)

socalorado
01-13-2009, 10:41 AM
Nice thread, Fontaine.

I agree with BPC on the Dawkins, issue. He'd be a huge addition for us, but wouldn't be upset with dafting Mayes, either. I think he's got a chance to be a quick-impact guy at S, which is rare for a rookie.

As for the front 7, we have a massive job ahead of us, no matter what scheme we run. (And I haven't heard any confirmation that we're definitely going 3/4 yet.)

Mays knows hes no where near ready for the NFL, so hes going back to school.

Br0nc0Buster
01-13-2009, 10:45 AM
I dont think I liked the idea of us blowing our load on FAs.
We need to get Marshall, Scheffler, Kuper, etc... signed.

So I dont know if we have enough money to keep our own guys AND target guys like Suggs, Dawkins, Haynesworth, etc...

eddie mac
01-13-2009, 10:56 AM
I dont think I liked the idea of us blowing our load on FAs.
We need to get Marshall, Scheffler, Kuper, etc... signed.

So I dont know if we have enough money to keep our own guys AND target guys like Suggs, Dawkins, Haynesworth, etc...

I wouldn't worry too much about extending Scheffler, he wont cost anywhere near what Marshall and Kuper will to retain and neither will Dumervil if we switch to a 3-4 which is very likely.

no-pseudo-fan
01-13-2009, 10:57 AM
where does McDaniel's come from? NE is rarely a huge player in the FA market, instead they spend smarter, and get players that are out of position or under utilized to come in. Who was Wes Welker before he was a Patriot? I see us getting a few guys in FA, making a few trades, and really killing it in the Draft.

Marshall needs to be signed. As do Scheffter and Kuper.

ward63
01-13-2009, 11:00 AM
where does McDaniel's come from? NE is rarely a huge player in the FA market, instead they spend smarter, and get players that are out of position or under utilized to come in. Who was Wes Welker before he was a Patriot? I see us getting a few guys in FA, making a few trades, and really killing it in the Draft.

Marshall needs to be signed. As do Scheffter and Kuper.

Dolphin's #1 WR

SonOfLe-loLang
01-13-2009, 11:05 AM
where does McDaniel's come from? NE is rarely a huge player in the FA market, instead they spend smarter, and get players that are out of position or under utilized to come in. Who was Wes Welker before he was a Patriot? I see us getting a few guys in FA, making a few trades, and really killing it in the Draft.

Marshall needs to be signed. As do Scheffter and Kuper.

Not all that true...they threw a lot of money at Adelius Thomas, Rosevelt Colvin...etc. Perhaps they arent balls to the wall at every position, but they've made some big free agent moves.

fontaine
01-13-2009, 12:10 PM
Crowder and Peterson are the last people we want at DE. I'm ok with developing a project like Moss as a tweener but Crowder shows no functional strength and Peterson is just a body.

These guys can be kept for backups but ideally thrown out the door so we can keep Thomas/Robertson as DEs and sign guys like Cody or Canty.

The same with WW. Yeah he's a nice story and all but he doesn't belong in a physical front 7. He would be a nice Cover 2 OLB in a place where they prefer speed over size but not in any place our defense if we're serious about having a monster front 7.

footstepsfrom#27
01-13-2009, 12:20 PM
3. Igor Olshansky: I hate this punk but beggers can't be choosers.
Even a beggar can choose which garbage can he decides to eat out of. HELL NO! :chairhit:

eddie mac
01-13-2009, 01:30 PM
Crowder and Peterson are the last people we want at DE. I'm ok with developing a project like Moss as a tweener but Crowder shows no functional strength and Peterson is just a body.

These guys can be kept for backups but ideally thrown out the door so we can keep Thomas/Robertson as DEs and sign guys like Cody or Canty.

The same with WW. Yeah he's a nice story and all but he doesn't belong in a physical front 7. He would be a nice Cover 2 OLB in a place where they prefer speed over size but not in any place our defense if we're serious about having a monster front 7.

Robertson cant play DE in a 3-4, he's 6-1, far too small. Have a look around the league at 3-4 teams and I think you'll only find one starter who's 6-3 and that's Castillo. DE's need to be able to block the passing lanes or we'll be setting new NFL records for pass completion against in 2009.

BTW Crowder would be a better fit at WDE in a Nolan 1 gap 3-4. Despite what you or anyone hasn't seen so far considering he hasn't even been on the field for more than 20 plays this season. He was and is a Power end and was totally underutilised by the idiots who ran this defense into the ground.

Inkana7
01-13-2009, 01:32 PM
Suggs should be #1 on our list. He had his best years, sack wise, with Nolan and takes care of an immediate need.

OJ Atogwe should also be targeted, as should James Sanders. Chris Canty as well.

gyldenlove
01-13-2009, 01:50 PM
I would like to go after Shaun Cody as a DE, Bart Scott as ILB and depth players. With an uncapped year coming and only being able to prorate signing bonuses for 5 years and limited raises for next year we are in a situation that could make it difficult for some teams to offer big contracts, so hopefully we can make some plays.

I think BJ Raji looks good in the 1st, I like Rashad Johnson in the 2nd as FS and Clay Matthews out of USC could be a good pickup at LB in the 3rd, but there are several options there. I would like to pick up a guy like Mitch King from Iowa in the 6th, he is a hard worker, he has a warrior mentality and is a leader, he is undersized for DT, but not a true DE. He could be a steal for his motor.

Inkana7
01-13-2009, 01:53 PM
I would totally be happy with Raji, Johnson and Matthews. Matthews looks like a versitile LB/DE guy.

socalorado
01-13-2009, 01:56 PM
I would totally be happy with Raji, Johnson and Matthews. Matthews looks like a versitile LB/DE guy.

Mathews was a walk on at USC. Busted his @$$. Now hes a solid 3rd-4th round selection.
Guy has a motor, and is always involved in the play.

TheManeMan
01-13-2009, 02:09 PM
(And I haven't heard any confirmation that we're definitely going 3/4 yet.)

This isnt really confirmation so take it for what its worth, from rotoworld . com

Broncos named Mike Nolan defensive coordinator and signed him to a two-year contract.

Nolan coached in Denver from 1987-92 under Dan Reeves. He is likely to run a 3-4, which will give McDaniels the flexible game-planning option he desires. Nolan's defense in San Francisco never improved much with weak pass rushers, but he had a solid run as Baltimore's coordinator. Look for Elvis Dumervil to move to OLB and Denver to pursue NT Albert Haynesworth this offseason. Jan. 13 - 8:37 am et
Source: Denver Post

PRBronco
01-13-2009, 02:24 PM
Mathews was a walk on at USC. Busted his @$$. Now hes a solid 3rd-4th round selection.
Guy has a motor, and is always involved in the play.

Yup, it never hurts to have more pure football players. Right now I'm afraid our defence has a lot of big track stars.

Also, omg no to Olshansky. A) He's lost his game. B) It would be an affront to everything Tom Nalen did for the franchise, and I wouldn't be able to take it.

eddie mac
01-13-2009, 02:27 PM
I wouldn't worry too much about Olshansky coming here. He hates the Broncos period and we hate him so it'll never happen.

Peoples Champ
01-13-2009, 02:57 PM
Of course I would take any of those LB's but can we afford them?

Drek
01-13-2009, 02:59 PM
One awesome fact about Terrell Suggs, for a guy who's played a lot of quality NFL football he only just turned 26 back in October.

If he's interested in a reunion with Nolan we should by all means facilitate that. Him and Atogwae should be the beginning and end of our high profile FA shopping list.

socalorado
01-13-2009, 03:05 PM
One awesome fact about Terrell Suggs, for a guy who's played a lot of quality NFL football he only just turned 26 back in October.

If he's interested in a reunion with Nolan we should by all means facilitate that. Him and Atogwae should be the beginning and end of our high profile FA shopping list.

YES. QFT.
Aquire these 2 and then move on to the draft with a solid understanding of the rest of the needs for the 3-4, and a RB of course!
Also, if Shaun Cody or another DT comes on the cheap, like i think Cody will, considering hes in DET (Cody-"Please get me the hell outta here!") then grab him too.

Cito Pelon
01-13-2009, 03:12 PM
Bigger more physical outside backer like Dansby in ariz who goes 250 are ideal inside in a 3-4. The only linebacker that really can't play in a 3-4 are little tiny ones that are under 235 pounds. Winborn, Webster,Boss Bailey are just too small for anything in a 3-4. DJ is borderline and would need to be paired with a big mauler for the other inside spot.

Usually the size ratios are 240-250 inside backers, and 260 pound outside linebackers. Obviously smaller guys that are borderline in LBS will have to be physical players.

Dansby, Bernard, Angelo Crowell, Bart Scott, Suggs, Atogwe, Andra Davis, Tank Johnson, Canty, Shaun Cody, Paris Lenon, Atari Bigby, Dunta Robinson, Keiwan Ratliff, Mike Peterson, Jarrad Page (RFA), Yeremiah Bell, Channing Crowder, Haynesworth, James Butler, Eric Barton, Asomugha, Will Allen, Jermaine Phillips.

These DL's, S's, LB's, CB's catch my eye from this site:

http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2009&nid=83&lnid=83&rc=16&cti=a

The front seven guys listed seem like possibilities for a 3-4, I threw in S's and CB's just because.

Chris
01-13-2009, 03:28 PM
I'd rather spend our money on Bart Scott than Terrell Suggs... Scott's a baller... suggs looks like he may be a product of the system they have in Baltimore.

TheManeMan
01-13-2009, 03:30 PM
I heard James Sanders mentioned in another thread. That would be a cost effective signing. Plus he's a Fresno St alum :D

TheManeMan
01-13-2009, 03:35 PM
I'd rather spend our money on Bart Scott than Terrell Suggs... Scott's a baller... suggs looks like he may be a product of the system they have in Baltimore.

Uhh

Nolans system?!?

cutthemdown
01-13-2009, 03:44 PM
I'd rather spend our money on Bart Scott than Terrell Suggs... Scott's a baller... suggs looks like he may be a product of the system they have in Baltimore.

totally different players. Scott is a mauler who plays inside in a 3-4 and takes on olineman.

Suggs plays outside and rushes passer and drops into coverage.

IMO Suggs the harder spot to fill.

BroncoBuff
01-13-2009, 03:47 PM
One awesome fact about Terrell Suggs, for a guy who's played a lot of quality NFL football he only just turned 26 back in October.

If he's interested in a reunion with Nolan we should by all means facilitate that. Him and Atogwae should be the beginning and end of our high profile FA shopping list.If only ...

Then draft Maualuga/Spikes and Brace and then just mop up.

elsid13
01-13-2009, 03:48 PM
Uhh

Nolans system?!?

It not Nolan's system. Rex Ryan has complete revamped it and made his own.

Chris
01-13-2009, 03:51 PM
I thought they ran a 4-3 in baltimore now... we're all talking about Nolan running a 3-4.

TheManeMan
01-13-2009, 04:06 PM
It not Nolan's system. Rex Ryan has complete revamped it and made his own.


Nolan was there with his system in tact when Suggs was drafted, and had his 2 best seasons (sacks wise), cough...in the 3-4...not Ryans system.

broncofan7
01-13-2009, 04:12 PM
I agree whole heartedly regarding Suggs--he needs to be our target in FA. If we are able to get Atogwe I would be beside myself with joy. Bart scott is a solid performer as well, but as was posted earlier, Suggs is a Playmaker/impact player and those are harder to find than lunch pale guys like Scott.

DBBBSBS
01-13-2009, 04:15 PM
where does McDaniel's come from? NE is rarely a huge player in the FA market, instead they spend smarter, and get players that are out of position or under utilized to come in. Who was Wes Welker before he was a Patriot? I see us getting a few guys in FA, making a few trades, and really killing it in the Draft.

Marshall needs to be signed. As do Scheffter and Kuper.

who is wes welker, how long have you been watching football ? i bet not more than 3 yrs.. with little knowledge about others, other than a few which are doing well.

wow.. no wonder u sound dumb more i read ur threads

elsid13
01-13-2009, 05:09 PM
Nolan was there with his system in tact when Suggs was drafted, and had his 2 best seasons (sacks wise), cough...in the 3-4...not Ryans system.

I just point out the fact that system that Suggs is now, a more effective in, isn't the same that Nolan had. Ryan system more complex and helluva a lot better then what Nolan was running. Most Raven fans didn't like Nolan when he was here, he was to passive for them.

kappys
01-13-2009, 05:19 PM
Did the Dolphins resign Channing Crowder? He'll command a decent but not huge salary.

gyldenlove
01-13-2009, 05:32 PM
We are not going to resign Marshall until the season begins, for several reasons: 1, he will be RFA in 2010, and in 2011. 2, he needs to show he can get through an off-season without messing up. 3, he is going to command top dollar and we can only spread the signing bonus over 5 seasons if we sign him now.

I agree we need to ink Kuper and Scheffler. Kuper is going to be the backbone of the inside line and is young enough to be reasonably cheap compared to some of the OG contracts out there, Scheffler comes off another injury riddled season and can't get top dollar.

Inkana7
01-13-2009, 05:36 PM
It not Nolan's system. Rex Ryan has complete revamped it and made his own.

As I said before, Suggs had his most sacks in the 2 years he spent with Nolan, including his first Pro Bowl when he had 60 Tackles and 10.5 sacks. He had 12 sacks his rookie year. Both from the OLB position.

Drek
01-13-2009, 06:11 PM
It not Nolan's system. Rex Ryan has complete revamped it and made his own.

But Suggs initial burst onto the scene, and his best pass rushing numbers at that, come from playing in Nolan's system.

So saying Suggs is a product of the system is basically like saying he's a lock to produce for us if we bring him in, because he's produced in it before.

I've been thinking about it and I think we'll probably run a hybrid ourselves for at least a few years while we acquire the talent needed for a full change over, a la Baltimore, AZ, etc. Generate a lot of turnovers with a well ran hybrid.....

SonOfLe-loLang
01-13-2009, 06:14 PM
But Suggs initial burst onto the scene, and his best pass rushing numbers at that, come from playing in Nolan's system.

So saying Suggs is a product of the system is basically like saying he's a lock to produce for us if we bring him in, because he's produced in it before.

I've been thinking about it and I think we'll probably run a hybrid ourselves for at least a few years while we acquire the talent needed for a full change over, a la Baltimore, AZ, etc. Generate a lot of turnovers with a well ran hybrid.....

Hybrid of what? No hybrid. Just put the scheme in...live by the sword, die by it

BroncoBuff
01-13-2009, 06:18 PM
I thought they ran a 4-3 in baltimore now... we're all talking about Nolan running a 3-4.That's true ... much to Ray Lewis's delight. But they include some 3-4-ish unbalanced 46-like sets too.


Terrell Suggs would be un-freaking-believable. Plus Atogwe in free agency. And Rey-Rey and Ron Brace 1-2 in the draft .... eeks! I'm swoooning! ;D

But do we have enough money for Suggs? He's gonna want Adelius money ...

Inkana7
01-13-2009, 07:41 PM
We can give him that money. We're rumored to have 30 million + in cap space.

elsid13
01-13-2009, 07:59 PM
That's true ... much to Ray Lewis's delight. But they include some 3-4-ish unbalanced 46-like sets too.


Terrell Suggs would be un-freaking-believable. Plus Atogwe in free agency. And Rey-Rey and Ron Brace 1-2 in the draft .... eeks! I'm swoooning! ;D

But do we have enough money for Suggs? He's gonna want Adelius money ...

The Raven primary run a 3/4 defense. The do a lot of interchange of personnel and position but at it base it is 3/4
http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Player_Roster/Depth_Chart.aspx
DE/DT -Pryce
NT/DE- Gregg (IR) /Ngata
DE/DT Bannan
Left OLB - J Johnson
LILB - Ray Lewis
RILB Scott
ROLB/DE Suggs

TonyR
01-13-2009, 08:30 PM
who is wes welker, how long have you been watching football?

He didn't ask who he is, he asked who he was before he was a Patriot. His point, I think, was that he didn't do much before playing under McDaniels. You should probably read things a bit more thoughtfully before launching personal attacks.

Cito Pelon
01-13-2009, 09:25 PM
He didn't ask who he is, he asked who he was before he was a Patriot. His point, I think, was that he didn't do much before playing under McDaniels. You should probably read things a bit more thoughtfully before launching personal attacks.

NE spent that 3rd rounder well for Welker. Same with how Baltimore spent a 3rd rounder for Willis McGahee. There's a lot of teams in the league thinking, "aw, shucks, we should have outbid them." Hell, Denver didn't want to spend a draft pick for McGahee and bid heavy for Travis Henry.

ward63
01-13-2009, 09:45 PM
NE spent that 3rd rounder well for Welker. Same with how Baltimore spent a 3rd rounder for Willis McGahee. There's a lot of teams in the league thinking, "aw, shucks, we should have outbid them." Hell, Denver didn't want to spend a draft pick for McGahee and bid heavy for Travis Henry.

It was a 2nd and a 7th for Welker

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-13-2009, 10:20 PM
First and foremost what we need for a 3-4 defense is NT. The reason is because nobody on the currrent roster can fill that roll. List comes from : http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75478

NT:
DT 14 Gabe Watson UFA 3 6-4/340 Michigan Arizona
DT 13 Grady Jackson UFA 12 6-2/345 Atlanta
DT 12 Colin Cole UFA 4 6-2/325 Iowa Green Bay
DT 16 Kenderick Allen UFA 5 6-5/330 LSU Minnesota

And if I hear Albert Haynesworth name here I'll puke. Listen you don't pay a NT 15 mil a year, you might if it were a DT but not a NT.

Next we need a pass rushing OLB

OLB:

List Must start with Terrell Suggs
OLB NR Terrell Suggs UFA 6 6-3/260 Arizona State Baltimore
OLB NR Willie McGinest UFA 15 6-5/270 USC Cleveland


Bank buster 3-4 defense:

RDE: Marcus Thomas
NT:Gabe Watson
LDE: Dewayne Robertson

ROLB: Terrell Suggs
RILB: DJ Williams
LILB: Boss Bailey
L OLB: Willie McGinest

3-4 soup line 3-4 defense

RDE: Marcus Thomas
NT: Colin Cole
LDE: Dewayne Robertson

ROLB: Jarvis Moss
RILB: W Woodyard
LILB: DJ Williams
L OLB: Boss Bailey

broncos-rock
01-13-2009, 10:29 PM
I'm real curious about how many high priced guys they bring in. Bowlen was on with the old farts on 1600am and they asked him about fa and he said he does'nt mind paying guys as long as they earn the money.

fontaine
01-14-2009, 03:49 AM
Robertson cant play DE in a 3-4, he's 6-1, far too small. Have a look around the league at 3-4 teams and I think you'll only find one starter who's 6-3 and that's Castillo. DE's need to be able to block the passing lanes or we'll be setting new NFL records for pass completion against in 2009.

BTW Crowder would be a better fit at WDE in a Nolan 1 gap 3-4. Despite what you or anyone hasn't seen so far considering he hasn't even been on the field for more than 20 plays this season. He was and is a Power end and was totally underutilised by the idiots who ran this defense into the ground.

Yes, I know what you mean about Robertson but more than blocking passing lanes he shows enough strength and leg drive to actually hold up two blockers which I would rate as far more important than ideal height.

Crowder? I just don't see it. The times when he was on the field he was getting rag dolled around. I get that he's supposed to be a power end but he hasn't shown it. Even when Engelberger was playing hurt he was starting over Crowder who was inactive.

fontaine
01-14-2009, 03:54 AM
There's also the possiblity of trades. Every year there seems to be 3-4 defenses that shift out of that scheme or DTs that are available. With the amount of picks we have we might have to trade for a young NT who's a backup and hope he develops.

fontaine
01-14-2009, 05:35 AM
Ravens OLB Terrell Suggs, who has not missed a game since being drafted by Baltimore in 2003 (a span of 96 regular-season games and four in the playoffs), quoted in the St. Petersburg Times regarding the likelihood of him starting next Sunday in the AFC championship game in Pittsburgh (Suggs missed the second half Saturday with a sprained right shoulder): "Check my track record. I don't miss games. The only way I wouldn't be there is if I didn't have air in my lungs."

!!!!

Drek
01-14-2009, 07:26 AM
Hybrid of what? No hybrid. Just put the scheme in...live by the sword, die by it

4-3/3-4 hybrid.

Personally I think its the next big wave for the NFL.

And we can't do a 100% changeover. This team was 8-8 last year with over a half dozen RBs hitting IR and the 3rd worst defense in the NFL (partially thanks to losing DJ and Champ).

This isn't a "blow it up and start over" team. This is a "get better on the fly" team.

In Baltimore Nolan executed a change from the 4-3 to the 3-4 by utilizing hybrid schemes and was getting excellent results his second year.

A hybrid is also the best possible scenario to bring BJ Raji in with the #12 pick, as in a hybrid he'd be very much like Haloti Ngata, but with better pass rush skills. He can anchor at NT in the three man line and when we go to the four man line he can either continue to do that job or even allowed to attack up field.

We got a lot of options and a lot of raw personnel who either need a lot of coaching regardless or just need to be let go so we can really go any way we want, but I'd be surprised if we don't at the very least play a hybrid D next year.

azbroncfan
01-17-2009, 10:55 PM
Haynesworth, Suggs, Atogwe, then sign an ILB such as Scott/Crowder from miami. I think Den would have a decent D. I figure if we are dreaming lets dream big. In reality none of those guys will probably be in Denver next year.

gyldenlove
01-17-2009, 11:01 PM
First and foremost what we need for a 3-4 defense is NT. The reason is because nobody on the currrent roster can fill that roll. List comes from : http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75478

NT:
DT 14 Gabe Watson UFA 3 6-4/340 Michigan Arizona
DT 13 Grady Jackson UFA 12 6-2/345 Atlanta
DT 12 Colin Cole UFA 4 6-2/325 Iowa Green Bay
DT 16 Kenderick Allen UFA 5 6-5/330 LSU Minnesota

And if I hear Albert Haynesworth name here I'll puke. Listen you don't pay a NT 15 mil a year, you might if it were a DT but not a NT.

Next we need a pass rushing OLB

OLB:

List Must start with Terrell Suggs
OLB NR Terrell Suggs UFA 6 6-3/260 Arizona State Baltimore
OLB NR Willie McGinest UFA 15 6-5/270 USC Cleveland


Bank buster 3-4 defense:

RDE: Marcus Thomas
NT:Gabe Watson
LDE: Dewayne Robertson

ROLB: Terrell Suggs
RILB: DJ Williams
LILB: Boss Bailey
L OLB: Willie McGinest

3-4 soup line 3-4 defense

RDE: Marcus Thomas
NT: Colin Cole
LDE: Dewayne Robertson

ROLB: Jarvis Moss
RILB: W Woodyard
LILB: DJ Williams
L OLB: Boss Bailey

Gabe Watson sucks, he would suck balls if he wasn't so tubby.

Grady Jackson should have retired years ago, but most likely will retire this year, same goes for Willie Mcginest.

For OLB you should consider Karlos Dansby as well.

BroncoBuff
01-17-2009, 11:01 PM
Haynesworth, Suggs, Atogwe, then sign an ILB such as Scott/Crowder from miami. I think Den would have a decent D. I figure if we are dreaming lets dream big. In reality none of those guys will probably be in Denver next year.
I like Suggs and Atogwe, for sure ... but I don't like Watson, and Haynesworth (and his price tag) scares me.

I'm with Drek, we should target Raji at 12, hopefully his character issues are overblown, as somebody posted they were recently here.

I think both Ebenezer Ekuban and Marcus Thomas are very well suited to 3-4 DE skills sets. Thomas is very quick for a DT, and we were moving Ekuban inside on passing downs when he ruptured the achiulles in 2007. And Crowder and Peterson are decent backup DEs ... I think we're okay at DE in a 3-4 setup, so long as we get a Jack LB who can rush the passer.

NFLBRONCO
01-17-2009, 11:24 PM
I like Suggs and Atogwe, for sure ... but I don't like Watson, and Haynesworth (and his price tag) scares me.

I'm with Drek, we should target Raji at 12, hopefully his character issues are overblown, as somebody posted they were recently here.

I think both Ebenezer Ekuban and Marcus Thomas are very well suited to 3-4 DE skills sets. Thomas is very quick for a DT, and we were moving Ekuban inside on passing downs when he ruptured the achiulles in 2007. And Crowder and Peterson are decent backup DEs ... I think we're okay at DE in a 3-4 setup, so long as we get a Jack LB who can rush the passer.

Congrats on 15k BB

ZONA
01-18-2009, 12:11 AM
It sure is going to be fun seeing how all this unfolds. However, I disagree with most of you regarding Woodyard. He's shown to have a knack for making plays. Regardless of his smaller size, he makes plays. I'd keep him and just what he developes into. I know he can play special teams but I also think we could take out one of the normal LB's in the dime/nickel and throw him in there. He's got more speed and can cover more ground when it's 2nd or 3rd and long. On the other hand, who knows, maybe given some playing time at safety, in a few years he could turn out to be an Atwater type of safety.

BroncoBuff
01-18-2009, 12:19 AM
Congrats on 15k BB
Oh wow ... thank you :thanku:

Drek
01-18-2009, 05:21 AM
I like Suggs and Atogwe, for sure ... but I don't like Watson, and Haynesworth (and his price tag) scares me.

I'm with Drek, we should target Raji at 12, hopefully his character issues are overblown, as somebody posted they were recently here.

I think both Ebenezer Ekuban and Marcus Thomas are very well suited to 3-4 DE skills sets. Thomas is very quick for a DT, and we were moving Ekuban inside on passing downs when he ruptured the achiulles in 2007. And Crowder and Peterson are decent backup DEs ... I think we're okay at DE in a 3-4 setup, so long as we get a Jack LB who can rush the passer.

I'm not sure if Ekuban will be retained for the transition.

While I think he could be an ok 3-4 DE, he's too old for the new coaching staff to give him a roster spot that they could more easily use for a younger guy who can offer a bigger payoff and more years of contribution.

I really like the idea of moving Thomas out to DE, I think he'll play really well there.

And any 3-4 mock lineups shouldn't contain Robertson. Eddie Mac's recent thread on his impending roster bonus pretty much guarantees he's getting cut and he won't resign here if we do convert to a 3-4.

We also aren't definitely moving to the 3-4, Nolan has ran both including a hybrid, he could go a lot of different ways with our talent. Thats a big reason why I'm growing on BJ Raji. I wouldn't want to take a DT with #12 if we play a straight up 3-4 but in a hybrid Raji opens up a lot of different looks.

As for Tim Crowder, I got the feeling that if we go to a 3-4 he'll be moved back to LB. He's physically VERY comparable to Adalius Thomas. Only a tenth of a second slower in the 40 and actually faster in a couple other speed and agility drills. Nolan got ahold of Adalius Thomas straight out of college as a 6th round pick and built him into an outstanding player. He's getting Crowder a little further into his career and he hasn't shown the same intangibles, but he could still make him into a similar kind of LB. Big, fast, and powerful.

Cmac821
01-18-2009, 08:55 AM
Do people not know that Nolan is experienced in both the 3-4 and 4-3. It could go either way, so settle down a little.

But it back in your pants please.

TheReverend
01-18-2009, 09:48 AM
IF EAGLES DON’T WANT DAWKINS, HE’LL GO ELSEWHERE
Posted by Mike Florio on January 11, 2009, 12:46 p.m. EST
Eagles safety Brian Dawkins, drafted by the team was back in 1996, is due to become a free agent after the season.

As of now, there’s been no serious effort to extend his deal.

FOX’s Pam Oliver reports that Dawkins will play elsewhere next season if the Eagles don’t re-sign him.

But Dawkins doesn’t think it’ll come to that.

“When that time comes [to renegotiate with the Eagles], hopefully we’ll be able to get something done, but I’m not sitting here telling you that I don’t think it’s gonna get done, because I believe it will.”

If the Eagles really wanted him, however, they’d already have a new deal done. But since he’s 35 years old, the team might want to see how he holds up through the postseason run before making any decisions about 2009.

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2009/01/11/if-eagles-dont-want-dawkins-hell-go-elsewhere/

Dawkins is done. He can play in the box now but reallllllllllllllly sucks in space. Throw that money at OJ.

TheReverend
01-18-2009, 09:49 AM
Dawkins is just what this team needs. A little heat and fire for that ass. Then again, i'm not familiar with Mike Nolan's system. It is hard to say that it will be anything near as aggressive as Jim Johnson's unit in Philly and I think Dawk feeds off that.

For what its worth, B-Dawkins is the Rodney Harrison of this offseason. A vet who will sacrifice all and everything to win, at any cost.

Bart Scott, T. Suggs, Canty and Dansby should be where we look to spend our money first. It's hard to invest a ton of money in down linemen for the 3-4 though as they are just taking up blocks for the most part. To me that takes Canty out of the equation if we're dropping dough.

Quentin Mikell spent the majority of the season cleaning up for Dawkins. Fortunately, he was able to handle it all the way to the all-pro team.

TonyR
01-18-2009, 09:50 AM
Dawkins is done. He can play in the box now but reallllllllllllllly sucks in space.

That and I have a feeling he doesn't leave Philly unless somebody really overpays for him.

TheReverend
01-18-2009, 09:56 AM
That and I have a feeling he doesn't leave Philly unless somebody really overpays for him.

It would be nice to have another smart player on the field in Dawkins, but his range has shrunk so dramatically in the past few years that he'll be on the cheap if Philly lets him walk (not sure if they will considering their replacement option is ****ing Considine who's a marginal STer on a good day).

JJ used to use Dawkins a lot like LeBeau uses Polamalu now... shifting him around, using his range, hitting, and "instincts" to be accounted for... not anymore. Sucks, maybe he can string his career out a few more years for a legit run at the Hall.

TonyR
01-18-2009, 10:09 AM
...maybe he can string his career out a few more years...

It's funny, all of my Eagles fan friends still think he's the greatest. And the media makes him out to still be "one of the best" as well. God, I hope they lose today but I just can't see it happening...

TheReverend
01-18-2009, 10:13 AM
It's funny, all of my Eagles fan friends still think he's the greatest. And the media makes him out to still be "one of the best" as well. God, I hope they lose today but I just can't see it happening...

:spit:

Most of mine see his limitations. Don't get me wrong, he's become a very solid OLB.

DB Doom
01-18-2009, 11:35 AM
Suggs!!!!:yayaya:



http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/292/geico2ia0.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)



oops i mean...

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1434/suggskillinemyj7.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)


http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7295/terrellsuggsga2.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

Inkana7
01-18-2009, 11:57 AM
Hellz yeah

Punisher
01-18-2009, 12:11 PM
The 3-4 d in Denver is just a rumor because I here nothing about this no where...but beside that if we do make the switch I can see jarvis moss making a moVe to rolb

socalorado
01-18-2009, 12:16 PM
The 3-4 d in Denver is just a rumor because I here nothing about this no where...but beside that if we do make the switch I can see jarvis moss making a moVe to rolb

Hows that? Moss CANT play DE, let alone play OLB in the 3-4.

Punisher
01-18-2009, 12:21 PM
Hows that? Moss CANT play DE, let alone play OLB in the 3-4.

Moss is build for that outside lb spot in the 3-4.

socalorado
01-18-2009, 12:30 PM
Moss is build for that outside lb spot in the 3-4.

Moss is a bust so far. I have him at the OLB spot as a reserve, backing up Suggs ( if DEN gets him) nothing more.
The only thing Moss is good at, is jumping on the pile after the play is over.

Inkana7
01-18-2009, 12:34 PM
Moss is a bust so far. I have him at the OLB spot as a reserve, backing up Suggs ( if DEN gets him) nothing more.
The only thing Moss is good at, is jumping on the pile after the play is over.

Moss played in what, 6 games last year and he had to suffer under Slowik this season. Moss hasn't had any coaching at all. Jacob Burney is a joke. The potential's always been there, we just never knew how to do it.

But once you find a player to either love or hate, you can't be convinced. So hate away.

socalorado
01-18-2009, 12:44 PM
Moss played in what, 6 games last year and he had to suffer under Slowik this season. Moss hasn't had any coaching at all. Jacob Burney is a joke. The potential's always been there, we just never knew how to do it.

But once you find a player to either love or hate, you can't be convinced. So hate away.

Well thats the thing here with DENs players, according to the posters.. Theres always an excuse for why he hasnt preformed. Its the system, or the coach or Shanny hated him, so hes smiling now, and its never the simple fact that the player has underpreformed. Moss plays DE in the 4-3, its easy to see that he has been a bust so far. He was projected as a situational 3rd down pass rusher outta college, and nothing more. he hasnt even lived up to that. He doesnt even start. Bust.

Drek
01-18-2009, 12:52 PM
Well thats the thing here with DENs players, according to the posters.. Theres always an excuse for why he hasnt preformed. Its the system, or the coach or Shanny hated him, so hes smiling now, and its never the simple fact that the player has underpreformed. Moss plays DE in the 4-3, its easy to see that he has been a bust so far. He was projected as a situational 3rd down pass rusher outta college, and nothing more. he hasnt even lived up to that. He doesnt even start. Bust.

Do you even know what you're talking about half the time?

Jarvis Moss was projected as a 4-3 weak side end or 3-4 OLB, both as a player with every down potential and excellent pass rush moves.

There is a reason why EVERY SINGLE ANALYST HAD HIM IN THE FIRST ROUND.

3rd down pass rush specialist my ass. He had about as much hype as Dwight Freeney or Jevon Kearse did coming out of college. Big difference is that Moss just hasn't put it together.

You can lay a big part of that on the coaching staff. Marcus Thomas has even said in an interview that he bull rushes every play because he's never been taught anything else. What that basically says is that our DL coaches the last few years have been content with our DL having the fundamentals and technique of HIGH SCHOOLERS.

Moss, Thomas, and Crowder all still have a ton of potential because they haven't been taught a damn thing. They're blank slates for Nolan and co. to work with. Will they get good results? Only time will tell. But you can't label any of them a bust when the staff we just ousted was partially here when we kept Dumervil on the bench over Engelberger and various other scrubs his rookie year, made him fight to get back into the starting lineup the next year, were fine with benching Woodyard and Larsen for a 50% DJ and Webster, etc. etc..

The coaching staff didn't do their damn job the last few years, you can throw all your preconceptions about our defensive players out the window now because someone who has a legitimate clue about NFL defenses in the 21st century just took over the unit. We'll see who he likes and what he does with them. Until then its all just pulling crap out of your ass.

BroncoBuff
01-18-2009, 01:49 PM
VERY interesting takes on Crowder, Drek ... hadn't thought of him as quick enough to be a Jack-LB, but your Adelius comparisons are interesting. Nolan might be just what the doctor ordered for him (that's him in your avatar, right?) Doesn't Jarvis Moss also project as a Jack-LB in the 3-4?

But it seems you might be dismissing Ebenezer a bit quickly ... he will be 33 this Summer, true, but then again, he's the best D-lineman other than Elvis (not saying much). He also has a good dose of the mean-streak our defense , and imo is our most underappreciated player.*




_____________________

* Another thing, I'm tired of people slamming Shanny on his way out the door about the "Browncos failure" The Browncos moves were an excellent use of the money and the resources we had at the time, to wit: 1) Ebenezer Ekuban is still our best D-lineman other than Elvis, 2) Courtney Brown succombed to bone-on-bone only after he anchored an AFC Ch-Ship defense, 3) Gerard Warren was sacrificed for the benefit of Jim Bates scheme ... and the pick we got for Warren became Ryan Torain, 4) Kenard Lang had 6 sacks for us in 2006, 5) Mike Myers was the only real failure, and he might've lasted another year had Coyer stayed on. And remember we gave up very little for these guys. So mellow on "blaming" Shanahan for the Browncos, people. That is all Knowitall

socalorado
01-18-2009, 03:56 PM
Do you even know what you're talking about half the time?

Jarvis Moss was projected as a 4-3 weak side end or 3-4 OLB, both as a player with every down potential and excellent pass rush moves.

There is a reason why EVERY SINGLE ANALYST HAD HIM IN THE FIRST ROUND.

3rd down pass rush specialist my ass. He had about as much hype as Dwight Freeney or Jevon Kearse did coming out of college. Big difference is that Moss just hasn't put it together.

You can lay a big part of that on the coaching staff. Marcus Thomas has even said in an interview that he bull rushes every play because he's never been taught anything else. What that basically says is that our DL coaches the last few years have been content with our DL having the fundamentals and technique of HIGH SCHOOLERS.

Moss, Thomas, and Crowder all still have a ton of potential because they haven't been taught a damn thing. They're blank slates for Nolan and co. to work with. Will they get good results? Only time will tell. But you can't label any of them a bust when the staff we just ousted was partially here when we kept Dumervil on the bench over Engelberger and various other scrubs his rookie year, made him fight to get back into the starting lineup the next year, were fine with benching Woodyard and Larsen for a 50% DJ and Webster, etc. etc..

The coaching staff didn't do their damn job the last few years, you can throw all your preconceptions about our defensive players out the window now because someone who has a legitimate clue about NFL defenses in the 21st century just took over the unit. We'll see who he likes and what he does with them. Until then its all just pulling crap out of your ass.

And here it is!! Always the "you dont know. and i do know!" crappola on this site. You can always touch off a $h!tstorm here, when even remotely having any negative feedback, let alone any that is an opinion, lest you are labeled a "hater" here about a player.
Jarvis Moss sucks. Hes sucked every year. He sucked last year, and he will suck in the 3-4 hyrbid, if DEN goes there. Just my opinion.
He was projected as a 4-3 situational 3rd down pass rusher, that shanny REACHED for in the draft.
Homerism aside, it was a reach to draft him, and hes been reaching ever since, showing NO signs of improvement. Which is why he isnt a starter.
Waaaay Too much homerism here lately with alot of players.
Jarvis Moss=sucks.

SoCalBronco
01-18-2009, 04:00 PM
The only thing Moss is good at, is

Paper or Plastic?

TheReverend
01-18-2009, 04:04 PM
Paper or Plastic?

As funny as that is... maybe he's just a late bloomer? Stranger things have happened and it's far from uncommon.

Bunkley blew until the past 3 weeks, now he's actually pretty disruptive. Diff position, but maybe Nolan can bring something out of the ****head.

socalorado
01-18-2009, 04:12 PM
As funny as that is... maybe he's just a late bloomer? Stranger things have happened and it's far from uncommon.

Bunkley blew until the past 3 weeks, now he's actually pretty disruptive. Diff position, but maybe Nolan can bring something out of the ****head.

Hey i am as optimistic as the next fan. I really hope Moss can be a player for DEN, but this "every player on the team is really good, its just the coaching" crap, is hillarious. This happens every offseason. DEN posters watch other teams in the playoffs, trying to convinve themselves that the players on DEN s roster are actually really, really good, its just "the system" or "its the coach". To some extent i will buy that with specific players, but its getting a little old.

TheReverend
01-18-2009, 04:19 PM
Hey i am as optimistic as the next fan. I really hope Moss can be a player for DEN, but this "every player on the team is really good, its just the coaching" crap, is hillarious. This happens every offseason. DEN posters watch other teams in the playoffs, trying to convinve themselves that the players on DEN s roster are actually really, really good, its just "the system" or "its the coach". To some extent i will buy that with specific players, but its getting a little old.

I agree to an extent. He's certainly not a player to be counting on, but let's hope he can finally take advantage of his opportunity.

fontaine
01-18-2009, 04:26 PM
I agree to an extent. He's certainly not a player to be counting on, but let's hope he can finally take advantage of his opportunity.

That's the way I see it as well. Yeah great he's got potential but he's not ready to take the field unless he really adds strength and some pass rushing moves.

I hope he takes this new Defense as an opportunity and starts fresh. San Diego takes a raw DE from Purdue in the 4th round and turn him into a stone cold pass rushing OLB in Shaun Phillips and we take one of the best DEs available in the first round and he ends up sucking.

I hate the draft sometimes.

PRBronco
01-18-2009, 04:39 PM
That's the way I see it as well. Yeah great he's got potential but he's not ready to take the field unless he really adds strength and some pass rushing moves.

I hope he takes this new Defense as an opportunity and starts fresh. San Diego takes a raw DE from Purdue in the 4th round and turn him into a stone cold pass rushing OLB in Shaun Phillips and we take one of the best DEs available in the first round and he ends up sucking.

I hate the draft sometimes.

Well in all fairness I wouldn't have called Shaun Philips raw, here's a blurb from his wikipedia page:

He started 49 straight games and graduated as Purdue's all-time sacks leader with 33.5. As a senior, he was a second-team All-American and was first-team all-conference.

It's just a matter of teams being too retarded to realize that maybe someone doesn't have to have prototypical size. Same as people thinking we "unearthed a gem" with Dumervil. He had like 20 sacks as a senior, how is anyone surprised he's getting sacks in the nfl?

Just want to make sure you're not giving credit the Dolts where it's not due :P

Drek
01-18-2009, 04:43 PM
And here it is!! Always the "you dont know. and i do know!" crappola on this site. You can always touch off a $h!tstorm here, when even remotely having any negative feedback, let alone any that is an opinion, lest you are labeled a "hater" here about a player.
Jarvis Moss sucks. Hes sucked every year. He sucked last year, and he will suck in the 3-4 hyrbid, if DEN goes there. Just my opinion.
He was projected as a 4-3 situational 3rd down pass rusher, that shanny REACHED for in the draft.
Homerism aside, it was a reach to draft him, and hes been reaching ever since, showing NO signs of improvement. Which is why he isnt a starter.
Waaaay Too much homerism here lately with alot of players.
Jarvis Moss=sucks.

I'm as willing to call a guy a bust as the next guy.

But Moss just finished hi second season and his first was mostly spent on IR. Its way too soon to call him a bust, especially considering the "coaching" he's received.

After hearing Mike Nolan on Sirius this Friday I'm not going to be the least bit surprised when/if Moss and Crowder are booted out on the street. He basically said we've got almost zero starting quality talent in our front seven. But with Moss and Crowder it isn't because they themselves are busts. Its because we drafted high potential players and then did basically zero to help them harness that potential and become legitimate players. They don't even know how to play football at the NFL level. Thats a coaching problem, not a player problem.

If Moss doesn't get anything done within a year or two I'll be right on the bust bandwagon with you, but we should at least see what he's got when he's got a defensive coaching staff who knows what the hell they're doing.

socalorado
01-18-2009, 04:47 PM
I'm as willing to call a guy a bust as the next guy.

But Moss just finished hi second season and his first was mostly spent on IR. Its way too soon to call him a bust, especially considering the "coaching" he's received.

After hearing Mike Nolan on Sirius this Friday I'm not going to be the least bit surprised when/if Moss and Crowder are booted out on the street. He basically said we've got almost zero starting quality talent in our front seven. But with Moss and Crowder it isn't because they themselves are busts. Its because we drafted high potential players and then did basically zero to help them harness that potential and become legitimate players. They don't even know how to play football at the NFL level. Thats a coaching problem, not a player problem.

If Moss doesn't get anything done within a year or two I'll be right on the bust bandwagon with you, but we should at least see what he's got when he's got a defensive coaching staff who knows what the hell they're doing.

Heres whats so funny! I would rather keep Crowder over Moss and he has done less than Moss! Just from a 3-4 hybrid standpoint, i think he has more to offer, but thats not a whole lot so far either.
And as you stated, Moss is always injured. Shoot, he was injured coming outta college. Not good. I have them he another year, and if theres no significant improvement, see ya.

BroncoBuff
01-18-2009, 04:50 PM
Heres whats so funny! I would rather keep Crowder over Moss and he has done less than Moss! Just from a 3-4 hybrid standpoint, i think he has more to offer, but thats not a whole lot so far either.

You would "rather"?! It's not one or the other. It's way WAY too early to write off Jarvis ... he was on IR much of his rookie year remember, and he did make some strides this past year. socalorado, you're just too impatient, my man. Ferhevvinsake this guy was our 1st round pick last year, give him some time ... especially with a new staff coming in.

And BTW ... Crowder has done more than Moss by FAR. He was 2nd on the team (to Elvis) in sacks last year. Look it up.

fontaine
01-18-2009, 05:07 PM
They don't even know how to play football at the NFL level. Thats a coaching problem, not a player problem.

Even though I agree with you, I think fundamentally it's a FO problem. A problem as in our FO hasn't drafted anyone on the DL worth a damn since DJ.

I saw Victor Abiamiri do some good things for Philly today, wasn't he drafted after Crowder? He looks twice the football player than him anyway.

socalorado
01-18-2009, 05:16 PM
You would "rather"?! It's not one or the other. It's way WAY too early to write off Jarvis ... he was on IR much of his rookie year remember, and he did make some strides this past year. socalorado, you're just too impatient, my man. Ferhevvinsake this guy was our 1st round pick last year, give him some time ... especially with a new staff coming in.

And BTW ... Crowder has done more than Moss by FAR. He was 2nd on the team (to Elvis) in sacks last year. Look it up.

Why not? Why cant it be one or the other? Just from what i saw of the two, i would RATHER DEN kept Crowder over Moss. Whats so difficult about that?
Its just my opinion of them. Thats all. I dont think i am too impatient, moss just has showed NO signs of any improvement whatsoever. And hes always injured. He was injured when he was drafted. Now, thats not the end of the world, causes players recover, but hes just been a total negative since he got here. Hopefully, Nolan can turn this guy around. The lack of any improvement issue is what really gets me with Moss.

Gcver2ver3
01-18-2009, 05:21 PM
And here it is!! Always the "you dont know. and i do know!" crappola on this site. You can always touch off a $h!tstorm here, when even remotely having any negative feedback, let alone any that is an opinion, lest you are labeled a "hater" here about a player.
Jarvis Moss sucks. Hes sucked every year. He sucked last year, and he will suck in the 3-4 hyrbid, if DEN goes there. Just my opinion.
He was projected as a 4-3 situational 3rd down pass rusher, that shanny REACHED for in the draft.
Homerism aside, it was a reach to draft him, and hes been reaching ever since, showing NO signs of improvement. Which is why he isnt a starter.
Waaaay Too much homerism here lately with alot of players.
Jarvis Moss=sucks.

i agree...

Drek
01-18-2009, 08:10 PM
Even though I agree with you, I think fundamentally it's a FO problem. A problem as in our FO hasn't drafted anyone on the DL worth a damn since DJ.

I saw Victor Abiamiri do some good things for Philly today, wasn't he drafted after Crowder? He looks twice the football player than him anyway.
Its an FO problem in that the FO didn't acknowledge the complete lack of coaching ability within certain subgroups of our coaching staff.

Largely a result of our HC, the guy who hired all the incapable coaches, was also the guy picking who we drafted.

We did hit pretty well on Dumervil, so thats a recent sign of success. Funny thing about Dumervil? Amazingly polished technique and fundamentals. He didn't need any coaching. Kinda shines a big 'ol spotlight on how crap our coaching has been when the only guy who knows what he's doing on the DL looks like a star compared to everyone else when he's a 4th round pick.

As for Moss, he might end up a bust. He might end up as a monumental bust who never records another sack. But saying he's a bust right now is jumping to conclusions. He might move to the OLB spot and suddenly be a difference maker. He might just stay at DE in a 4-3 front and suddenly put it all together thanks to superior DL coaching. Never know until we see, way too early to label him anything though.

socalorado
01-18-2009, 08:42 PM
Its an FO problem in that the FO didn't acknowledge the complete lack of coaching ability within certain subgroups of our coaching staff.

Largely a result of our HC, the guy who hired all the incapable coaches, was also the guy picking who we drafted.

We did hit pretty well on Dumervil, so thats a recent sign of success. Funny thing about Dumervil? Amazingly polished technique and fundamentals. He didn't need any coaching. Kinda shines a big 'ol spotlight on how crap our coaching has been when the only guy who knows what he's doing on the DL looks like a star compared to everyone else when he's a 4th round pick.

As for Moss, he might end up a bust. He might end up as a monumental bust who never records another sack. But saying he's a bust right now is jumping to conclusions. He might move to the OLB spot and suddenly be a difference maker. He might just stay at DE in a 4-3 front and suddenly put it all together thanks to superior DL coaching. Never know until we see, way too early to label him anything though.

Fine. Moss gets one more year, if he stays anyways.
To me, hes a bust, until he proves me otherwise though.
I am hoping Nolan can do with him what he has done with others in the past.

TheReverend
01-19-2009, 04:23 AM
You would "rather"?! It's not one or the other. It's way WAY too early to write off Jarvis ... he was on IR much of his rookie year remember, and he did make some strides this past year. socalorado, you're just too impatient, my man. Ferhevvinsake this guy was our 1st round pick last year, give him some time ... especially with a new staff coming in.

And BTW ... Crowder has done more than Moss by FAR. He was 2nd on the team (to Elvis) in sacks last year. Look it up.

How many games was he even active this season?

Dedhed
01-19-2009, 04:28 AM
Fine. Moss gets one more year, if he stays anyways.
To me, hes a bust, until he proves me otherwise though.
I am hoping Nolan can do with him what he has done with others in the past.

This is whats annoying. Calling someone a bust while there's still a chance they'll produce is a misuse of the term.

There's no such thing as "a bust so far".

cutthemdown
01-19-2009, 04:38 AM
This is whats annoying. Calling someone a bust while there's still a chance they'll produce is a misuse of the term.

There's no such thing as "a bust so far".

Cmon bro.... And this is coming from someone who adopted Moss, He's a bust.

If a player that was a first round pick has done nothing in 2-3 yrs since you drafted him he is a bust. The dude doesn't make the active roster most weeks.

If Moss doesn't blow up this yr he becomes a total bust. You are right that he still have a small window to not be bust, but he is 3/4 of the way there right now.

Unless Moss as we speak is working out, getting stronger, living an breathing football I'd say he may be one of those players content to take his millions and wash out.

Drek
01-19-2009, 04:50 AM
VERY interesting takes on Crowder, Drek ... hadn't thought of him as quick enough to be a Jack-LB, but your Adelius comparisons are interesting. Nolan might be just what the doctor ordered for him (that's him in your avatar, right?) Doesn't Jarvis Moss also project as a Jack-LB in the 3-4?

But it seems you might be dismissing Ebenezer a bit quickly ... he will be 33 this Summer, true, but then again, he's the best D-lineman other than Elvis (not saying much). He also has a good dose of the mean-streak our defense , and imo is our most underappreciated player.*

I just don't know if Ekuban could hold up as a 5 tech DE in the 3-4, having to handle two gaps. If we played the Dallas/SD style of 3-4 where we occasionally make our DEs responsible for only one gap assignment then maybe we could let him pass rush but we probably won't, that has never been Nolan's style even when he has coached a 3-4.

It isn't as much about Ekuban's skills though as it is about him being a 33 year old free agent only one season removed from a major injury. I just don't see the new regime wanting to invest any of their FA money or a roster spot in him because they'll be looking to get some serious young blood into the mix.

I like Ek and even if he couldn't fit perfectly in the 3-4 I'd be fine with keeping him around because I think we'll actually be a hybrid team for at least a season or two while we make the transition and the guy is a valuable veteran presence on a very young team. But I just don't see McDaniels or Nolan willing to give him a roster spot when they could instead give it to a 25 year old 300 pounder they pick up in FA to coach up into a player.

I see our current DEs (the ones worth talking about) fitting in a 3-4 like this:

Moss - Seems like a pretty good fit for the jack or sam spots to me. While 6'6", 265 is runty for a DE its a big linebacker on either side of the ball really. He can fit on either end and find a home.

Crowder - I think the Adalius Thomas/Willie McGinest comparisons are apt in his physical skills and measureables, which would indicate that sam is his best fit. But if his football IQ really explodes with some decent coaching then maybe even move him inside to mike some like the Pats do with Thomas.

Dumervil - Could probably be slotted into either Jack or Sam but I think Sam is a better fit for him. On Sirius a couple days ago one of their analysts (Tim Ryan I think?) said he could see Dumervil filling a James Harrison kind of role of straight up pass rushing OLB. Harrison does most of his work from the sam I've noticed, probably because he's got the power and technique to work through the extra traffic while his teammates don't so much. I'd say the same for Dumervil, he's a guy who can show off sound football fundamentals and bring a tough pass rush even from the strong side.

To me the ideal LB depth chart for a 3-4 heading into next year would be:
Jack - Suggs/Moss
Will - DJ/Woodyard
Mike - Larsen and rookie (let Nolan pick an MLB to groom for us)
Sam - Dumervil/Crowder.

fontaine
01-19-2009, 06:28 AM
Its an FO problem in that the FO didn't acknowledge the complete lack of coaching ability within certain subgroups of our coaching staff.

Largely a result of our HC, the guy who hired all the incapable coaches, was also the guy picking who we drafted.

We did hit pretty well on Dumervil, so thats a recent sign of success. Funny thing about Dumervil? Amazingly polished technique and fundamentals. He didn't need any coaching. Kinda shines a big 'ol spotlight on how crap our coaching has been when the only guy who knows what he's doing on the DL looks like a star compared to everyone else when he's a 4th round pick.

As for Moss, he might end up a bust. He might end up as a monumental bust who never records another sack. But saying he's a bust right now is jumping to conclusions. He might move to the OLB spot and suddenly be a difference maker. He might just stay at DE in a 4-3 front and suddenly put it all together thanks to superior DL coaching. Never know until we see, way too early to label him anything though.


Again I hear what you're saying and in no way do the defensive coaches get a pass here, but I think it speaks volumes that the only DL we can point to that was drafted with any success is a one dimensional pass rusher who's weak against the run.

We could get an all world staff here but there not going to get an average player to be great. All a good coach does is make the player consistent in a scheme by hiding his weakenesses and highlighting his strengths. If Moss is physically and mentally weak (like I think he is) then no coaching staff is going to develop this guy.

I mean seriously, he's been with the team for two years. How long does it take to develop more than one pass rush move?

elsid13
01-19-2009, 06:38 AM
Again I hear what you're saying and in no way do the defensive coaches get a pass here, but I think it speaks volumes that the only DL we can point to that was drafted with any success is a one dimensional pass rusher who's weak against the run.

We could get an all world staff here but there not going to get an average player to be great. All a good coach does is make the player consistent in a scheme by hiding his weakenesses and highlighting his strengths. If Moss is physically and mentally weak (like I think he is) then no coaching staff is going to develop this guy.

I mean seriously, he's been with the team for two years. How long does it take to develop more than one pass rush move?

He might know a number of moves, but the coaches might have him running with one techinque only. As a side note, Doom learned all passing rushing techinque in college and was very polish pass rusher when came here, there has been no visible evidence that coahing staff has helped him to develop.

fontaine
01-19-2009, 06:43 AM
He might know a number of moves, but the coaches might have him running with one techinque only.

That sounds pretty ridiculous to me. Unless he flat out sucks at other moves and hasn't developed them (like I think is the case), there's no way a coach would tell him to just run with one technique all the time.

Broncos_OTM
01-19-2009, 06:43 AM
And here it is!! Always the "you dont know. and i do know!" crappola on this site. You can always touch off a $h!tstorm here, when even remotely having any negative feedback, let alone any that is an opinion, lest you are labeled a "hater" here about a player.
Jarvis Moss sucks. Hes sucked every year. He sucked last year, and he will suck in the 3-4 hyrbid, if DEN goes there. Just my opinion.
He was projected as a 4-3 situational 3rd down pass rusher, that shanny REACHED for in the draft.
Homerism aside, it was a reach to draft him, and hes been reaching ever since, showing NO signs of improvement. Which is why he isnt a starter.
Waaaay Too much homerism here lately with alot of players.
Jarvis Moss=sucks.

He was projected as a 3rd down specialist his first year. He was not a complete player coming out of college with PROPER coaching he was supposed to be good. I aggree with Drek we havent done jack for Moss. If we do a 3-4 and he does play OLB unless he picks it up right quick i dont think he will be there just yet. but give the man sometime to get proper coaching adn see if this staff really does have what it takes. If we can improve our sack numbers this year we should know what it was

alkemical
01-20-2009, 07:42 AM
bump to get all the 3-4 threads on teh same page!!!!

Drek
01-20-2009, 08:47 AM
Again I hear what you're saying and in no way do the defensive coaches get a pass here, but I think it speaks volumes that the only DL we can point to that was drafted with any success is a one dimensional pass rusher who's weak against the run.

We could get an all world staff here but there not going to get an average player to be great. All a good coach does is make the player consistent in a scheme by hiding his weakenesses and highlighting his strengths. If Moss is physically and mentally weak (like I think he is) then no coaching staff is going to develop this guy.

I mean seriously, he's been with the team for two years. How long does it take to develop more than one pass rush move?

I don't know, how long would it take an illiterate person to read if you just handed him Moby Dick?

Thats what we're basically asking Moss and Crowder to do.

I find it pretty odd that both were very highly thought of but raw prospects coming out of school and yet neither has shown the least bit of growth. Are they both busts? Or does Occam's Razor apply and the fact that raw prospects never developed go at the feet of those who were responsible for teaching them?

Teams coach up late rounders into solid starters all the time and people equally praise the draft selection and the coaching. But when a first or second rounder never becomes even a solid starter he's the bust and the coaching staff is largely let off the hook?

Jarvis Moss might never be anything in this league and if he's not he does need to take some ownership of that himself. But Burney and Johnson have their fair share of the liability there as well.

socalorado
01-20-2009, 08:49 AM
I don't know, how long would it take an illiterate person to read if you just handed him Moby Dick?

Thats what we're basically asking Moss and Crowder to do.

I find it pretty odd that both were very highly thought of but raw prospects coming out of school and yet neither has shown the least bit of growth. Are they both busts? Or does Occam's Razor apply and the fact that raw prospects never developed goes at the feet of those who were responsible for teaching them?

Hey Drek, do you know the official amount of money DEN has to spend in FA?

Drek
01-20-2009, 08:52 AM
Hey Drek, do you know the official amount of money DEN has to spend in FA?

I think its about $30M but Eddie Mac is the resident capologist and keeps a pretty much running total. Look into his recent D-Rob roster bonus melt down and I believe he says how much we have pretty near exactly, including our bigger cap hits.

Speaking of bigger cap hits and busts, Niko Koutouvides is a BUST. Looked to have some potential in his rookie year of heavy duty, lost out to a stud in Lofa Tatupu so you could forgive him not being a current starter when we signed him, but he was also a special teams maven. Comes here, gets paid, and was behind THREE other guys to get into the starting MLB spot. One a 5th round draft choice, another a guy who wasn't even in the league much of last season.

That is a bust. When a guy is a veteran and completely flops when given the opportunity. Maybe Nolan can rebuild him, but as of now that looks like a stinker.

socalorado
01-20-2009, 09:16 AM
I think its about $30M but Eddie Mac is the resident capologist and keeps a pretty much running total. Look into his recent D-Rob roster bonus melt down and I believe he says how much we have pretty near exactly, including our bigger cap hits.

Speaking of bigger cap hits and busts, Niko Koutouvides is a BUST. Looked to have some potential in his rookie year of heavy duty, lost out to a stud in Lofa Tatupu so you could forgive him not being a current starter when we signed him, but he was also a special teams maven. Comes here, gets paid, and was behind THREE other guys to get into the starting MLB spot. One a 5th round draft choice, another a guy who wasn't even in the league much of last season.

That is a bust. When a guy is a veteran and completely flops when given the opportunity. Maybe Nolan can rebuild him, but as of now that looks like a stinker.

Oh yes. Niko. Officially a bust. Of course, i dont know how anyone had such high expectations for him, to me, that was an attempt to "band aid" the situation.
All the more reason to love what Larsen is doing in DEN. Sure do like that kid.

Inkana7
01-20-2009, 07:13 PM
Niko is a bust thus far, but Nolan has a great record with developing Linebackers.

BroncoBuff
01-20-2009, 07:15 PM
It's true he simply cannot play 4-3 MLB, ande prolly not any 3-4 LB spot either .... but I think I saw where, for 2009 anyway, keeping Niko is the same as waiving him, cap-wise. So unless somebody will take him and his contract in a trade, we have ourselves a special teams captain anyway. He is still a stud on spec-teams.