PDA

View Full Version : For the Shannahan Haters out there


UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-11-2009, 12:57 AM
Now that Fisher tanked in the second round of the playoffs. Can someone tell me how in holy heII does Shannahan get fired after winning 2 Super Bowls, 10 1000 yard RBs (none drafted on the first round), only 2 losing seasons in 14 years get fired.

Yet a guy that has been to only 1 Super Bowl and lost, 1 1000 yard back drafted in the first round, 3 or 4 losing seasons gets to have a 15th year?

Inkana7
01-11-2009, 12:58 AM
Fisher's team went 13-3. They were 10-6 last year. Both playoff seasons.

Shanahan? 7-9. 8-8. No playoffs.

tsiguy96
01-11-2009, 01:08 AM
shanahan playoff wins in last 10 years: 1
norv turner playoff wins in last 2 years: 3 (so far)

see a problem there?
i think shanahan was fired a year too late or too early, we finally had a spark this year, but with him the defense was never going to be championship quality, and as we can see week in and out, D wins championships.

Cito Pelon
01-11-2009, 01:10 AM
Fisher's teams actually compete in playoff games, they make a game of it at least. Also, the situation is completely different. Tennessee was the old Houston franchise, they're used to losing. Denver was once a kick ass franchise, owned the most AFC Titles, which is a big deal, eh?

Shanny didn't capitalize on that heritage, in fact lost the lead in AFC Titles by getting his ass kicked at Mile High by the Steelers. The franchise by Bronco standards took a nose dive. One AFC West title in 10 years is the worst titleless stretch since the 1960's. The worst Bronco D since 1967 in 2007, then the worst Bronco D since 1968 in 2008.

Time to shake things up.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-11-2009, 01:13 AM
2 Super Bowl wins Vs. 0 Super Bowl wins.

Inkana7
01-11-2009, 01:15 AM
2 Super Bowl wins Vs. 0 Super Bowl wins.

Great. Let's hire Dick Vermil. I heard he got a ring 10 years ago too.

footstepsfrom#27
01-11-2009, 01:17 AM
Who cares why Fisher has a job? He's not here so I don't. The better question is why is anyone wondering why Shanahan got fired after a decade of mediocrity when he had unprecedented power over the team?

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-11-2009, 01:18 AM
Fisher's teams actually compete in playoff games, they make a game of it at least. .

? they just lost to a team that had a rookie QB! And he only threw the ball 8-9 times in the first half. When Shannahan got the killed vs the colts, that was Payton "Freaking" Manning at least. Whats Fishers excuse?

Broncosfreak_56
01-11-2009, 01:23 AM
? they just lost to a team that had a rookie QB! And he only threw the ball 8-9 times in the first half. When Shannahan got the killed vs the colts, that was Payton "Freaking" Manning at least. Whats Fishers excuse?

They have an amazing defense.

TomServo
01-11-2009, 01:34 AM
Now that Fisher tanked in the second round of the playoffs. Can someone tell me how in holy heII does Shannahan get fired after winning 2 Super Bowls, 10 1000 yard RBs (none drafted on the first round), only 2 losing seasons in 14 years get fired.

because we havent gotten anywhere the last decade not to mention the last three years 24-24- woo hoo. dusty ten year old trophys dont impress me. 9-7. 7-9. 8-8. if we we the bungles that would be impressive. O woo hoo. if we were the browns or the chiefs that would be great.
were Not those crappy franchises. we demand more. worst playoff drought since 80 -82. dumbass new fans can love those trophys. long time fans want some new ones.

Gort
01-11-2009, 01:36 AM
2 Super Bowl wins Vs. 0 Super Bowl wins.

you're happy living in the past. Bowlen is not. that's why Shanny is gone. Bowlen wants MORE Super Bowl wins.

TomServo
01-11-2009, 01:42 AM
2 Super Bowl wins Vs. 0 Super Bowl wins.

do we have to start a '"what was cool back then" to uillistrate how long ago that was?
besides if your a bronco fan its 2/6
oyeah those crappy fans cant remember past 1998

TomServo
01-11-2009, 01:54 AM
2 Super Bowl wins Vs. 0 Super Bowl wins.

o yay some superbowl wins Way back. Yay. cowboys have many they must be superior. the refs gave cowher a win. woohoo cowher rules.
shanny has won less playoff games than red miller. i used to be a shanny fan. shanyy or elway? any Good coach could get elway to the superbowl. we were lucky to play
arrogent favre the first time

Popps
01-11-2009, 01:58 AM
2 Super Bowl wins Vs. 0 Super Bowl wins.

Yea, that argument is great when everyone on the board was alive to see those SBs.

We very literally have fans on this board that probably were just old enough to understand what was going on at the time.

My son is 14. He's a big fan. We've basically won nothing of meaning in his life that he can actually remember.

So, let's not talk about the SBs as a reason to keep anyone around, at this point. That argument has long-expired.

TomServo
01-11-2009, 02:04 AM
"the browns. bengals, chiefs,etc." would love to have the broncos record. i Bet they would. but any true bronco fan would reject it. division pennant? sucks. even afc champion shirts kinda suck.

Popps
01-11-2009, 02:22 AM
even afc champion shirts kinda suck.

Hey, I like mine. :)

Anyway, this thread blows. No one with a brain "hates" Shanahan. We've been through all of this and the right decision was made. It's time to move on.

TomServo
01-11-2009, 02:36 AM
yah afc champion shirts are kinda cool.
afc west division shirts really do suck unless you cash them in for the SB.
"woohoo we went 8-8"

jhat01
01-11-2009, 07:05 AM
Yea, that argument is great when everyone on the board was alive to see those SBs.

We very literally have fans on this board that probably were just old enough to understand what was going on at the time.

My son is 14. He's a big fan. We've basically won nothing of meaning in his life that he can actually remember.

So, let's not talk about the SBs as a reason to keep anyone around, at this point. That argument has long-expired.

Well put. The bottom line is the team has not been able to "finish" in quite awhile. We start hot every year, only to fizzle out with amazing skill. This team has been stagnant. A shake up has been overdue.

broncofan7
01-11-2009, 07:05 AM
Ten years ago i was banging a TCU cheerleader. Now I'm married.

frerottenextelway
01-11-2009, 07:57 AM
Jeff Fisher: 128 - 102
Mike Shanahan: 146 - 98

Jeff Fisher is not in Mike Shanahan's league.

colonelbeef
01-11-2009, 08:10 AM
Hey, I like mine. :)

Anyway, this thread blows. No one with a brain "hates" Shanahan. We've been through all of this and the right decision was made. It's time to move on.

No it wasn't, and the next few years will bear this out.

colonelbeef
01-11-2009, 08:12 AM
Jeff Fisher: 128 - 102
Mike Shanahan: 146 - 98

Jeff Fisher is not in Mike Shanahan's league.

Nope. Neither is John Fox, yet you could go down the line and almost all of the people here who think this was a good move would take either of them over Shanahan, which of course proves their lack of understanding on the subject.

Shanahan>>>>>>>>>Fox>Fisher

Rohirrim
01-11-2009, 08:13 AM
Now that Fisher tanked in the second round of the playoffs. Can someone tell me how in holy heII does Shannahan get fired after winning 2 Super Bowls, 10 1000 yard RBs (none drafted on the first round), only 2 losing seasons in 14 years get fired.

Yet a guy that has been to only 1 Super Bowl and lost, 1 1000 yard back drafted in the first round, 3 or 4 losing seasons gets to have a 15th year?

Uhhh, different owners? ???

TheReverend
01-11-2009, 08:18 AM
Yea, that argument is great when everyone on the board was alive to see those SBs.

We very literally have fans on this board that probably were just old enough to understand what was going on at the time.

My son is 14. He's a big fan. We've basically won nothing of meaning in his life that he can actually remember.

So, let's not talk about the SBs as a reason to keep anyone around, at this point. That argument has long-expired.

Are you saying the franchise needs to pander to its 14 year old fans...?

Atlas
01-11-2009, 08:27 AM
Now that Fisher tanked in the second round of the playoffs. Can someone tell me how in holy heII does Shannahan get fired after winning 2 Super Bowls, 10 1000 yard RBs (none drafted on the first round), only 2 losing seasons in 14 years get fired.

Yet a guy that has been to only 1 Super Bowl and lost, 1 1000 yard back drafted in the first round, 3 or 4 losing seasons gets to have a 15th year?

2 losing seasons in 14 years is pretty bad. I'm sure all the other teams in the NFL would hate to have that many losing seasons.

wolf754life
01-11-2009, 08:31 AM
A Toute Le Monde

" tout le monde, tous mes amis, je vous aime, je dois partir"

Bronx33
01-11-2009, 08:34 AM
Loyalty to slowik killed shanahan ohhhh and 1 playoff win in 10 years.

Rock Chalk
01-11-2009, 08:55 AM
? they just lost to a team that had a rookie QB! And he only threw the ball 8-9 times in the first half. When Shannahan got the killed vs the colts, that was Payton "Freaking" Manning at least. Whats Fishers excuse?

A lot of teams have got hteir asses kicked by that same rookie QB this year.

The game between these two teams earlier was 13-10. Only Tenn won that game.

I dont see why you are bashing Fisher here. fisher's team competed in a game against a really talented team that has been well coached. Denver's playoff losses to the Colts they shouldnt even have showed up. Fisher actually called a good game plan, his players played hard for him, they just didnt make enough plays. Conversely, Denver teams have been SPANKED in the playoffs and have had no less than FOUR blowout losses in the regular season by teams like ****ing Detroit, a Matt Cassel led Patriots team, San Diego consistently, etc.

You wont see Tennessee getting blown out very often.

Fisher is an excellent coach, and has earned the respect of Titan fans and owner ship. He tolerates no bull****. When Haynesworth stomped on that guys face, the league suspended him for 4 games. When that suspension was over, FISHER suspended him the rest of the season. Shanahan would never have done that because he would have been too valuable to help us win. Shanahan had conversely, lost the respect of many fans and while I doubt he lost the respect of Pat Bowlen, Bowlen had seen enough and made ac hange.

****ing accept it and shut the **** up. Shanahan is not coming back and as a Bronco fan worry about your own franchise and stop worrying about the Titans.

go_broncos
01-11-2009, 09:16 AM
Now that Fisher tanked in the second round of the playoffs. Can someone tell me how in holy heII does Shannahan get fired after winning 2 Super Bowls, 10 1000 yard RBs (none drafted on the first round), only 2 losing seasons in 14 years get fired.

Yet a guy that has been to only 1 Super Bowl and lost, 1 1000 yard back drafted in the first round, 3 or 4 losing seasons gets to have a 15th year?

1 playoff win in 10 years.

Even Arizona has more playoff wins than Denver.

Our team always start fast and then can't finish.

Defense is horrible..Even Huard is able to complete 90% of his passes.

On top of that..our great coach doesnt want to fire Slowik.

Even Turner has more success than Mike.

2 Superbowl wins were 10 years ago..

Mike Draft picks are horrible..he wasted Bowlen's money.

He was lucky that he served 10 years.

HEAV
01-11-2009, 09:27 AM
2 Super Bowl wins Vs. 0 Super Bowl wins.



It was ****ing ten (10) (X) 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, TEN years ago!

Sports is about now, not back then, it about seeing a franchise improve over a period time.

The BRONCOS have been in nuetral for 3 years.


Shanny's gone let it go.

Greybeard
01-11-2009, 09:32 AM
Now that Fisher tanked in the second round of the playoffs. Can someone tell me how in holy heII does Shannahan get fired after winning 2 Super Bowls, 10 1000 yard RBs (none drafted on the first round), only 2 losing seasons in 14 years get fired.

Yet a guy that has been to only 1 Super Bowl and lost, 1 1000 yard back drafted in the first round, 3 or 4 losing seasons gets to have a 15th year?

I believe Shanny might have been fired a year too soon. He had built a
juggernaut offense with three good (two splendid) drafts, and had a ton of
choices for this next draft, and it was clear he was going to focus on defense.

But, reading between the lines, it would seem there is more to it than that. It
was clear that Shanny was the Broncos, and Pat wanted to take back the
team that he, after all, owns. So I can't say whether I agree or disagree with
it. All I can do is acknowledge that it is Pat's team and watch the games . . .

-----

Paladin
01-11-2009, 09:35 AM
o yay some superbowl wins Way back. Yay. cowboys have many they must be superior. the refs gave cowher a win. woohoo cowher rules.
shanny has won less playoff games than red miller. i used to be a shanny fan. shanyy or elway? any Good coach could get elway to the superbowl. we were lucky to play
arrogent favre the first time

Well. It is after five somewhere.......

Right Mock?

TheReverend
01-11-2009, 09:36 AM
I believe Shanny might have been fired a year too soon. He had built a juggernaut offense with three good (two splendid) drafts, and had a ton of
choices for this next draft, and it was clear he was going to focus on defense.

But, reading between the lines, it would seem there is more to it than that. It
was clear that Shanny was the Broncos, and Pat wanted to take back the
team that he, after all, owns. So I can't say whether I agree or disagree with
it. All I can do is acknowledge that it is Pat's team and watch the games . . .

-----

Great post.

DarkHorse
01-11-2009, 09:50 AM
Shanny kind of reached a plateau with Denver, maybe eve dropped a bit with his consistent failings in the draft and FA (before finally letting someone else have that duty).

Fisher has been a pretty consistent coach and seems to be flexible with the ever changing NFL and it's ''trends''.

Personally I think our demise was due to trying to find diamonds in the rough way too many times. Shanny got big headed regarding his ability to motivate underacheivers - seems like we grasped a lot for those types of guys in the draft and FA just so Shanny could say 'look how well I polished this turd'.

Rigs11
01-11-2009, 11:19 AM
Broncos went 24 and 24 last 3 seasons. Nuff said.

frerottenextelway
01-11-2009, 12:06 PM
Broncos went 24 and 24 last 3 seasons. Nuff said.

Fisher went 17-31 from 2004 to 2006.

broncofan7
01-11-2009, 12:14 PM
Fisher went 17-31 from 2004 to 2006.

This is so pointless..We are the Denver Broncos--we were the model AFC franchise from 1977 until the year 2000. Since then we have been slightly above average and Bowlen realized this and made the change.

enjolras
01-11-2009, 12:16 PM
o yay some superbowl wins Way back. Yay. cowboys have many they must be superior. the refs gave cowher a win. woohoo cowher rules.
shanny has won less playoff games than red miller. i used to be a shanny fan. shanyy or elway? any Good coach could get elway to the superbowl. we were lucky to play
arrogent favre the first time

Favre played really well in that game. The Broncos didn't beat them because they were taken for granted, they won because they were the better team.

Although you can make the case that Shannahan has never won a superbowl without Eugene Robinson as well:)

frerottenextelway
01-11-2009, 12:20 PM
Favre played really well in that game.


Yep.

Elway 12 22 123 0 1
Favre 25 42 256 3 1

We only won because of Elway!!!

Rigs11
01-11-2009, 12:49 PM
Fisher went 17-31 from 2004 to 2006.

Maybe you should write the owner of that team and express your outrage

ro_50
01-11-2009, 12:52 PM
It's not about being Shanahan haters, I think most of us like Shanny as a coach, but he couldn't adequately handle all of the hats he had in the organization.

Sometimes, after 14 years, a change of scenery is needed for both the coach and the franchise.

frerottenextelway
01-11-2009, 12:52 PM
Maybe you should write the owner of that team and express your outrage

Typical pissant response. Nuff said.

CEH
01-11-2009, 01:34 PM
Fisher went 17-31 from 2004 to 2006.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Tennessee fire their GM after 2006?.
Denver just did the same thing. Point is both teams made changes after 3 mediorce seasons

frerottenextelway
01-11-2009, 01:37 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Tennessee fire their GM after 2006?.
Denver just did the same thing. Point is both teams made changes after 3 mediorce seasons

we fired sunquist. our moves over the past year have been fantastic. clady, royal, hillis, etc, etc...

i think the ''we fired our gm'' is just feel good talk, we fired mike the head coach.

Bronx33
01-11-2009, 01:38 PM
There is life after shanahan ya know folks take some zanex for christ sakes and move the **** on.

orinjkrush
01-11-2009, 01:45 PM
agreee. nothing to see here.

www.MOVEON.org

Broncomutt
01-11-2009, 01:45 PM
Now that Fisher tanked in the second round of the playoffs. Can someone tell me how in holy heII does Shannahan get fired after winning 2 Super Bowls, 10 1000 yard RBs (none drafted on the first round), only 2 losing seasons in 14 years get fired.

Yet a guy that has been to only 1 Super Bowl and lost, 1 1000 yard back drafted in the first round, 3 or 4 losing seasons gets to have a 15th year?

Why don't you ask Mike yourself?

Just send him an e-mail....and.....um, nevermind......

Rigs11
01-11-2009, 01:47 PM
Typical pissant response. Nuff said.

How so? You are pointing to what another team is doing to somehow excuse the piss poor job that shanny did. Talk about a pissant attitude.

Natedog24
01-11-2009, 01:48 PM
If things turn ugly in the next few years with the new coach, get used to a TON of threads like this one. Please don't pick the wrong coach Bowlen!

OBF1
01-11-2009, 01:50 PM
2 Super Bowl wins Vs. 0 Super Bowl wins.

Wake up and get over it.... Shanny has not done crapola the past 10 seasons. 2 subpar seasons in a row with a historic collapse this season to give the division away to SD and more hiring blunders than anyone can remember and you still kiss the ass of shannahan?

CEH
01-11-2009, 01:52 PM
we fired sunquist. our moves over the past year have been fantastic. clady, royal, hillis, etc, etc...

i think the ''we fired our gm'' is just feel good talk, we fired mike the head coach.

"I run the show" tells me Pat wrestled control of the team back from Mike that is why I say Pat fired Mike the GM. No one knows exactly what happened but I do know from the local media who are out at Dove Valley everyday their relationship has been strained for some time.

Popps
01-11-2009, 02:09 PM
No it wasn't, and the next few years will bear this out.

Really? Got a crystal ball there, sport?

You have no idea what the next three years will bear. None. Even the most qualified have very little idea.

What we DO know is that we've just wrapped up the 2nd worst decade in franchise history and the correct move was made.

Bowlen doesn't settle for mediocrity in Denver. If you want that, go become a Raiders fan.

Oh, wait... the Raiders have won more playoff games than us in the last decade, too.

Never mind.

frerottenextelway
01-11-2009, 02:13 PM
How so? You are pointing to what another team is doing to somehow excuse the piss poor job that shanny did. Talk about a pissant attitude.

recap:

the thread is about how fisher - who has never done jack**** - gets a pass here and you show a 3 year .500 span of shanahan. i point to a .350 span by fisher and you give the typical ass response to write to bowlen.

frerottenextelway
01-11-2009, 02:29 PM
What we DO know is that we've just wrapped up the 2nd worst decade in franchise history.

No.

2008 8 8 0
2007 7 9 0
2006 9 7 0
2005 13 3 0
2004 10 6 0
2003 10 6 0
2002 9 7 0
2001 8 8 0
2000 11 5
2000's 85-59 W% 0.590

1969 5 8 1
1968 5 9
1967 3 11
1966 4 10
1965 4 10
1964 2 11 1
1963 2 11 1
1962 7 7
1961 3 11
1960 4 9 1
1960's 39-97-4 W% 0.287


1979 10 6
1978 10 6
1977 12 2
1976 9 5
1975 6 8
1974 7 6 1
1973 7 5 2
1972 5 9
1971 4 9 1
1970 5 8 1
1970's 75-64-5 W% 0.540

1994 7 9
1993 9 7
1992 8 8
1991 12 4
1990 5 11
1990's (pre shanahan) 41-39 W% 0.513

Rigs11
01-11-2009, 04:07 PM
recap:

the thread is about how fisher - who has never done jack**** - gets a pass here and you show a 3 year .500 span of shanahan. i point to a .350 span by fisher and you give the typical ass response to write to bowlen.

Actually my point still stands. Who gives a crap what the titans do?And i meant you should write the owner of the titans to have fisher fired. If it makes you feel better.

UltimateHoboW/Shotgun
01-11-2009, 05:32 PM
Actually my point still stands. Who gives a crap what the titans do?And i meant you should write the owner of the titans to have fisher fired. If it makes you feel better.

No the point is people love to compare shannahan to everybody else. I want to compare apples to apples. The only reason people feel that shannahan needed to go was because every stinking year media puts out this crap that Shannahan is on the hot seaT. My question if the National media feels that Shannahan is on the hot seat why isn't Fisher?

TonyR
01-11-2009, 05:47 PM
The only reason people feel that shannahan needed to go was because every stinking year media puts out this crap that Shannahan is on the hot seaT.

I NEVER heard that Shanny was on the hot seat, only that he should have been.

The fact than Ken Whisenhunt and the Arizona Cardinals have twice as many playoff wins this year as The Mastermind and the Denver Broncos have in the last ten about sums up why it was time to move on. Some of you people need to stop living in the past.

Rigs11
01-11-2009, 06:26 PM
No the point is people love to compare shannahan to everybody else. I want to compare apples to apples. The only reason people feel that shannahan needed to go was because every stinking year media puts out this crap that Shannahan is on the hot seaT. My question if the National media feels that Shannahan is on the hot seat why isn't Fisher?

13-3

frerottenextelway
01-11-2009, 06:28 PM
13-3

IYO, should Fisher have been fired when he went 17-31 from 2004 to 2006?

Popps
01-11-2009, 06:56 PM
No.

2008 8 8 0
2007 7 9 0
2006 9 7 0
2005 13 3 0
2004 10 6 0
2003 10 6 0
2002 9 7 0
2001 8 8 0
2000 11 5
2000's 85-59 W% 0.590

1969 5 8 1
1968 5 9
1967 3 11
1966 4 10
1965 4 10
1964 2 11 1
1963 2 11 1
1962 7 7
1961 3 11
1960 4 9 1
1960's 39-97-4 W% 0.287


1979 10 6
1978 10 6
1977 12 2
1976 9 5
1975 6 8
1974 7 6 1
1973 7 5 2
1972 5 9
1971 4 9 1
1970 5 8 1
1970's 75-64-5 W% 0.540

1994 7 9
1993 9 7
1992 8 8
1991 12 4
1990 5 11
1990's (pre shanahan) 41-39 W% 0.513

Playoff wins, boss. Playoff wins.

I wasn't talking about pre-season games, or games played in September.

Playoff wins.

Norv Turner, the Oakland Raiders both have won more than us in the past decade.

Rigs11
01-11-2009, 07:57 PM
IYO, should Fisher have been fired when he went 17-31 from 2004 to 2006?Yes.

colonelbeef
01-11-2009, 08:50 PM
Really? Got a crystal ball there, sport?

You have no idea what the next three years will bear. None. Even the most qualified have very little idea.

What we DO know is that we've just wrapped up the 2nd worst decade in franchise history and the correct move was made.

Bowlen doesn't settle for mediocrity in Denver. If you want that, go become a Raiders fan.

Oh, wait... the Raiders have won more playoff games than us in the last decade, too.

Never mind.

Nope, this much I do know however: A) the Broncos just had the 2 best drafts in franchise history under Mike Shanahan's direction and B) 3 years removed from a home AFCCG we have a completely new offense sporting stars at most every position, all 25 years of age or younger.

The chances that Josh McDaniels is capable of outcoaching a future HOF'er and current offensive genius are slim and none, and nobody needs a crystal ball to see that, just a touch of logic, a dash of common sense, and a bit of football understanding. Hang your hat on the 1 playoff win thing though, it seems that is the only statistical point any Shanahan detractor is able to use. Never mind the facts surrounding that outcome or the direction overall, just focus on one number.

Broncos fans, the new Yankees fans of the Midwest.

colonelbeef
01-11-2009, 08:52 PM
Playoff wins, boss. Playoff wins.

I wasn't talking about pre-season games, or games played in September.

Playoff wins.

Norv Turner, the Oakland Raiders both have won more than us in the past decade.

See, you want playoff wins. I want Super Bowl championships and years of contention. The only way to build a team that contends year after year is to build a young nucleus and let it grow together. I just wish I could put my finger on a coach who was willing to put together a core like that... hmm...

TheReverend
01-11-2009, 09:10 PM
Playoff wins, boss. Playoff wins.

I wasn't talking about pre-season games, or games played in September.

Playoff wins.

Norv Turner, the Oakland Raiders both have won more than us in the past decade.

So, in your eyes, A) the Chargers are better under Norv, and B) we should blow up the model and try to emulate the Oakland Raiders?

That speaks volumes.

Mediator12
01-11-2009, 09:13 PM
So, in your eyes, A) the Chargers are better under Norv, and B) we should blow up the model and try to emulate the Oakland Raiders?

That speaks volumes.

Better, no. More succesful as a franchise since Mike won his SB's, sadly yes.