PDA

View Full Version : What Defensive Scheme Do You Want?


Killericon
01-10-2009, 02:18 PM
Be it Spags with his 4-3, Dom Capers with his 3-4 or Raheem Morris with his Tampa 2, it's clear that there'll be a different system in Denver next year. NOT based on who will be coaching the defense, I wanna know which system you guys prefer.

broncsyanks
01-10-2009, 02:20 PM
one that works

LonghornBronco
01-10-2009, 02:21 PM
I say the Tampa two, because that is what our personel could adapt to immediatly. We could have a big improvement without having to tear the whole thing down. Larry Coyer did the best job of the people we have had in here and he ran the Tampa 2

Hallside
01-10-2009, 02:26 PM
I voted 3-4 since that's likely what McDaniels and Capers/Crennel will bring and I'm optimistic we can adapt quickly to it and succeed.

I'd also be fine with a PHI/NYG/Spag style 4-3.

Not a fan of the Tampa 2.

broncosteven
01-10-2009, 02:27 PM
Stay with 4-3, new DC to weed out those not cutting it and bring his guys in.

3-4 will take too long to get personel

Tampa 2 has run it's course, Neither Tampa nor Chicago can run it anymore Teams know how to gameplan it. Plus you need talent at Safety which we do not have.

Bronco LB 59
01-10-2009, 02:30 PM
46 or bust

Rock Chalk
01-10-2009, 03:27 PM
Any one that works.

NFLBRONCO
01-10-2009, 03:28 PM
I don't care just as long CB's don't play 10 yds off WR's every game.

I think I'd wet my pants if we had a D that forced one 3 and out in each half.

cutthemdown
01-10-2009, 03:32 PM
Let's talk just a little but about terminology. A cover 2 can be ran from either a 4-3 or a 3-4. 4-3 and 3-4 are referring to the front 7 alignment and not how you play the safety's. Cover 2 is a coverage scheme not a front 7 alignment.

True most cover 2 is ran from a 4-3, but really 4-3 is a more popular defensive front. 3-4 is becoming popular because it disguises things and is versatile.

IMO though either alignment of the front 7 can work in the NFL with good players.

I don't care what defense or coverage scheme we employ but if it's cover 2 I hope we play our corners tighter to the LOS and bump wr off the line.

If we go 3-4 I sure hope we look for some bigger inside linebackers and a bigger NT otherwise we still get pushed around.

Hallside
01-10-2009, 03:41 PM
Let's talk just a little but about terminology. A cover 2 can be ran from either a 4-3 or a 3-4. 4-3 and 3-4 are referring to the front 7 alignment and not how you play the safety's. Cover 2 is a coverage scheme not a front 7 alignment.

True most cover 2 is ran from a 4-3, but really 4-3 is a more popular defensive front. 3-4 is becoming popular because it disguises things and is versatile.

IMO though either alignment of the front 7 can work in the NFL with good players.

I don't care what defense or coverage scheme we employ but if it's cover 2 I hope we play our corners tighter to the LOS and bump wr off the line.

If we go 3-4 I sure hope we look for some bigger inside linebackers and a bigger NT otherwise we still get pushed around.

Ok. But you're the first one to use the term "cover 2" in this thread. We've been referring to the "Tampa 2" which is more specific.

To put a finer point on it, I think the specific purpose of the thread is to compare the various defenses that Spags ("4-3"), McDaniels & Capers/Crennel (3-4), and Morris and Frazier ("Tampa 2") would bring.

Drek
01-10-2009, 03:47 PM
I'd prefer a 3-4 where we bring in Romeo Crennel to run the show. Moss could adjust to a full time 3-4 OLB in short order, DJ moves inside. Thomas moves out to DE. Dumervil takes on the situational OLB who sometimes stands up, sometimes puts a hand in the dirt a la Willie McGinest. Fits what little talent we have in the front seven pretty well and I just prefer the 3-4.

But I wouldn't have a problem with any of them really, just as long as we get some better talent across the board.

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 03:50 PM
I say the Tampa two, because that is what our personel could adapt to immediatly. We could have a big improvement without having to tear the whole thing down. Larry Coyer did the best job of the people we have had in here and he ran the Tampa 2


that is our personel yes I agree but 3-4 can be done just as easy !

Broncosfreak_56
01-10-2009, 03:51 PM
IF we go 3-4, Terrell Suggs becomes the number 1 FA.

kdissette
01-10-2009, 03:54 PM
I think the Tampa 2 is a better option for our current personel situation. I mean that would even open us up to trade champ if he wants to do more man, but he is always in the box anyway so he would work. IF we do go Tampa2 it is vital that we get some quality Dlineman in teh offseason.

SureShot
01-10-2009, 03:55 PM
one that works

This

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 03:58 PM
3-4

we would need a NT

we would need one MLB because Larsen would make the NT ILB

Huge Need for FS in the system

4-3

we need a NT

Need a MLB

FS not as imoptant but still got to get a FS that tackles well

IMO got the rest

3-4

you cut Williams and all LBers not named or try to use him as a way to move up a couple spots in draft .

Cut DT Robetson

Trade Bailey .

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 04:00 PM
IF we go 3-4, Terrell Suggs becomes the number 1 FA.

why ? LBers are easy to come by in this system hell we already got 2 OLBer for the system on the team .

PRBronco
01-10-2009, 04:02 PM
IF we go 3-4, Terrell Suggs becomes the number 1 FA.

Chris Canty would be a nice pick up too.

watermock
01-10-2009, 04:15 PM
Throw away the 07 draft if we go 3-4.

Rock Chalk
01-10-2009, 06:03 PM
that is our personel yes I agree but 3-4 can be done just as easy !

No.

I dont know why people think its that easy to convert to a 3-4 when you have full on 4-3 personell. Not one team in the last 20 years has made an easy conversion from a 4-3 to a 3-4 in less than 2 years.

You need a big, dominant NT, which are harder and harder to find.

You need to big nasty DE's which are more like DTs but with DE speed, again, harder to find.

You need 4 big ass linebackers, all of which need to be able to blitz otherwise there is no point because the 3-4's biggest advantage is blitz disguising.

Also with the LBs, you need smart players and we have none. They have to all be able to maintain their assignments without error because the moment there is an error, there is a big play in the 3-4.

We have none of the personell required. Our best LB is DJ and he is not a 3-4 LB, not an ILB or OLB. Too small. IN fact, Boss is probably the only LB big enough to be in a 3-4 on our team and he cant stay healthy. I suppose you could move Doom and Moss to the OLB position in a 3-4, but that still leaves you with a glaring weakness of DEs, not one of them we have capable of playing ina a 3-4.

We would be best suited staying in a 4-3 unless Bowlen and company want to wait 3 or 4 years while we acquire the personnel to fit the scheme instead of making the scheme fit the personnel.

loborugger
01-10-2009, 06:06 PM
3-4

we would need a NT

we would need one MLB because Larsen would make the NT ILB

Huge Need for FS in the system

4-3

we need a NT

Need a MLB

FS not as imoptant but still got to get a FS that tackles well

IMO got the rest

3-4

you cut Williams and all LBers not named or try to use him as a way to move up a couple spots in draft .

Cut DT Robetson

Trade Bailey .

I dont think we would get anything for him, lets just waive him. He's a bum, anyways.

Popps
01-10-2009, 06:13 PM
I picked 3-4, only because I think it may be easier to staff from the ground up, which is basically what we're doing. Dominant, big DEs are difficult to find. Seems to me that there are always a ton of "tweeners" coming out of school that we have to pass on. It also seems like the 3-4 provides a little more flexibility.

But, I really don't care much. Just get some ****ing talent in here and run whatever system you want.

Bronx33
01-10-2009, 06:16 PM
3-4 IF we can get a pass rush going and the right personell to have it function as a unit.

Rock Chalk
01-10-2009, 06:17 PM
3-4 IF we can get a pass rush going and the right personell to have it function as a unit.

Well ****, a 4-3 will work IF we get that going for us.

Bronx33
01-10-2009, 06:19 PM
Well ****, a 4-3 will work IF we get that going for us.



I just like the idea of having extra support mid field.

Paladin
01-10-2009, 06:19 PM
I want one that works.........

TheManeMan
01-10-2009, 06:19 PM
Just some kind of Pass Rush Pleasee! :pray:

Popps
01-10-2009, 06:20 PM
By the "ground-up," I'm obviously talking about the fact that we literally have only a couple of guys worth keeping.

DenverBrit
01-10-2009, 06:21 PM
One that tackles would be nice. :thumbs:

lex
01-10-2009, 06:27 PM
The defensive scheme doesnt matter. What really matters is that we have a 32 year old coach who is easy to control.

Florida_Bronco
01-10-2009, 06:32 PM
This question is pretty flawed to be honest, as Cutthemdown was hinting at.

4-3, 3-4, 4-6...etc are all alignments, not schemes. There are many different schemes that can be run within any given alignment. Example would be in the 4-3 where you have Jim Bate's scheme, the Tampa Cover 2...etc.

I'm adament about sticking with the 4-3. Moss and Crowder are perfect RDE and LDEs, respectively, in the 4-3 and those were our 2 top picks in 2007 which we desperately need to come through for us. I'd like to see us adopt the Tampa 2 for the reasons LonghornBronco mentioned. It's a relatively simple scheme which you can easily find players for and would work to the strengths of the personell we have now.

The only problems we would have with the 4-3; Tampa 2 are...

- We need a NT. Thomas, Robertson and Peterson are all UTs. Carlton Powell is a NT IIRC but he was injured and an unknown prospect at this point.

- We'd need another LB, probably a MIKE. D.J has the WILL spot locked down and I assume the team will let Bailey, Winborn and Woodyard fight it out for SAM. Larsen looked pretty decent in limited time but I don't think he is a 3 down player and I'm sure the team will try to upgrade.

- A major upgrade at free safety. I'm confident with giving the SS spot to Barrett with Manuel backing him up, but we don't have any legitimate free safety prospects and that is an important position in the cover 2.

All in all I think those are good reasons for running the Tampa 2. You're only looking at 3 positions on the defense that absolutely have to be upgraded (assuming Moss/Crowder turn it on) which we could easily do in the draft and free agency.

Now if we try to switch to a 3-4, you have many more positions that would need to be upgraded and that assumes that you have success moving people like Moss, Crowder, Dumervil and Thomas into a 3-4, which they've never played before as a base defense. To me, that is too many question marks.

Bottom line is that we can integrate a 4-3 Cover 2 system much more easily and safely than a 3-4 system.

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 07:29 PM
This question is pretty flawed to be honest, as Cutthemdown was hinting at.

4-3, 3-4, 4-6...etc are all alignments, not schemes. There are many different schemes that can be run within any given alignment. Example would be in the 4-3 where you have Jim Bate's scheme, the Tampa Cover 2...etc.

I'm adament about sticking with the 4-3. Moss and Crowder are perfect RDE and LDEs, respectively, in the 4-3 and those were our 2 top picks in 2007 which we desperately need to come through for us. I'd like to see us adopt the Tampa 2 for the reasons LonghornBronco mentioned. It's a relatively simple scheme which you can easily find players for and would work to the strengths of the personell we have now.

The only problems we would have with the 4-3; Tampa 2 are...

- We need a NT. Thomas, Robertson and Peterson are all UTs. Carlton Powell is a NT IIRC but he was injured and an unknown prospect at this point.

- We'd need another LB, probably a MIKE. D.J has the WILL spot locked down and I assume the team will let Bailey, Winborn and Woodyard fight it out for SAM. Larsen looked pretty decent in limited time but I don't think he is a 3 down player and I'm sure the team will try to upgrade.

- A major upgrade at free safety. I'm confident with giving the SS spot to Barrett with Manuel backing him up, but we don't have any legitimate free safety prospects and that is an important position in the cover 2.

All in all I think those are good reasons for running the Tampa 2. You're only looking at 3 positions on the defense that absolutely have to be upgraded (assuming Moss/Crowder turn it on) which we could easily do in the draft and free agency.

Now if we try to switch to a 3-4, you have many more positions that would need to be upgraded and that assumes that you have success moving people like Moss, Crowder, Dumervil and Thomas into a 3-4, which they've never played before as a base defense. To me, that is too many question marks.

Bottom line is that we can integrate a 4-3 Cover 2 system much more easily and safely than a 3-4 system.

you say that tampa 2 is the way then poit out the same as I did thinng is when did tampa2 win the SB ? I will tell you when there was 3 HOF'ers on the D side on the Ball !

3-4 is the easiest way to rebuild hell Miami showed you this this year !

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 07:30 PM
Do look at the Sacks stats this year .

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 07:31 PM
3-4 is cheap you can pick up 6'2'' LBers a hell of a lot cheaper !

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 07:35 PM
our team is not missing all that much to go 3-4

Moss OLB Larsen NT ILB OLB Dvile

2KBack
01-10-2009, 07:41 PM
our team is not missing all that much to go 3-4

Moss OLB Larsen NT ILB OLB Dvile

Of course there is that little fact that Robertson is the only player on the team that has ever played in a 3-4, and by most accounts was below average and disliked it.

cutthemdown
01-10-2009, 07:51 PM
why ? LBers are easy to come by in this system hell we already got 2 OLBer for the system on the team .

really? What Lbers do we have that would do well in the DE/LB hybrid spot the 3-4 uses. That would be the Merriman, Willie Mcginnest, Terrell Suggs type linebacker?

cutthemdown
01-10-2009, 07:52 PM
our team is not missing all that much to go 3-4

Moss OLB Larsen NT ILB OLB Dvile

neither Moss or Dumerville plays well enough standing up to be a 3-4 backer. If they can do that there is no way you would know because we haven't seen them do it and they didn't do it in college as far as I know.

Bronx33
01-10-2009, 07:55 PM
Iam sooooooooooooooooooo jazzed about seeing a new defense!

BroncoMan4ever
01-10-2009, 08:00 PM
i don't care what we run as long as it is an improvement over this season.

ZONA
01-10-2009, 08:09 PM
I just hope the new coach calls Champ into his office and says nothing person Champ but your brothers outta here.

Bronx33
01-10-2009, 08:11 PM
I just hope the new coach calls Champ into his office and says nothing person Champ but your brothers outta here.


But his every other play injury timeout helps the D rest. ;D

Florida_Bronco
01-10-2009, 08:13 PM
you say that tampa 2 is the way then poit out the same as I did thinng is when did tampa2 win the SB ? I will tell you when there was 3 HOF'ers on the D side on the Ball !

What kind of argument is that?

The Tampa Cover 2 kept the Bucs competitive even when the offense was atrocious. Also, it would be a great fit for the defensive backs we have now as well as the linebackers. As Med pointed out awhile back, the Tampa 2 requires smaller, quick linebackers who could all play in the WILL spot. That would be perfect for us, especially with the way people have been screaming to get Woodyard onto the field.

3-4 is the easiest way to rebuild hell Miami showed you this this year!

Miami was in a totally different situation. They had some good but aging players that they could jetison and install the 3-4. We, on the other hand, have invested major resources (including 3/4ths of the 07 draft) in 4-3 personnell. We cannot logically cut those players loose (especially when their poor play is probably coaching related) and make no mistake about it...we would have to cut those players loose if you wanted to correctly implement the 3-4. None of the teams that have quickly transitioned to the 3-4 have carried over signicant amounts of their starters.

Face it, if we want to do this right we need to run the 4-3.

Florida_Bronco
01-10-2009, 08:15 PM
I just hope the new coach calls Champ into his office and says nothing person Champ but your brothers outta here.

That would be a counter-productive move. Boss played pretty well for us and if we cut him we'd take a significant cap hit IIRC (maybe one of our cap gurus can confirm that) plus you'd be cutting a viable starter.

watermock
01-10-2009, 08:16 PM
i don't care what we run as long as it is an improvement over this season.

Well, we start by getting a DC, which Bowlen evidently hasnt figured out.

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 08:35 PM
What kind of argument is that?

The Tampa Cover 2 kept the Bucs competitive even when the offense was atrocious. Also, it would be a great fit for the defensive backs we have now as well as the linebackers. As Med pointed out awhile back, the Tampa 2 requires smaller, quick linebackers who could all play in the WILL spot. That would be perfect for us, especially with the way people have been screaming to get Woodyard onto the field.



Miami was in a totally different situation. They had some good but aging players that they could jetison and install the 3-4. We, on the other hand, have invested major resources (including 3/4ths of the 07 draft) in 4-3 personnell. We cannot logically cut those players loose (especially when their poor play is probably coaching related) and make no mistake about it...we would have to cut those players loose if you wanted to correctly implement the 3-4. None of the teams that have quickly transitioned to the 3-4 have carried over signicant amounts of their starters.

Face it, if we want to do this right we need to run the 4-3.

we have a owner that wines he is broke I point out why keep high priced vets ! 3-4 as to a way to hold down cost . you want tampa 2 I point out that cost .

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 08:42 PM
to convert to 3-4 we will need a

NT

FS

we got a NT ILB'er in larsen

but will need a PR ILB Rey Rey will work

to convert to 4-3 and be good we will need

NT

FS

MLB spikes will work

I seem to see about the same amount of players but with the 3-4 we get rid of Wiliams and Bailey a big wad of money...

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 08:43 PM
3-4 pays the owner

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 08:44 PM
6'6'' DE cost gravy

cutthemdown
01-10-2009, 08:50 PM
That would be a counter-productive move. Boss played pretty well for us and if we cut him we'd take a significant cap hit IIRC (maybe one of our cap gurus can confirm that) plus you'd be cutting a viable starter.

Viable? He stinks. Didn't you see him giving up the huge plays to TE and RB's before he got injured?

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 08:51 PM
oh hell lets not talk about hipty hopity

Elway777
01-10-2009, 08:56 PM
I want to run a system that was used by the Ravens in their Superbowl win and also like the System used by the Vikings. A system that has 2 big Dt to stop the run and 2 De that can rush the passer. Haynesworth most likely we be too expensive so I say the Broncos trade down in draft and Draft B.j RaJi.In the second get a De like Greg Hardy if he falls. Trade 4 round pick to the Bears for Adewale Ogunleye. The Broncos draft could be 1. B.J Raji 2. Greg Hardy 3a Donald Brown ,need a Running back 3b Dannell Ellerbe,fast Mike to compete with Larsen 4. Traded for Ogunleye 5. Chis Baker,another dt.
The Broncos try to rebuild defence line in the draft and Look at a safety in free agency. Cheap way of rebuilding Defence.

Florida_Bronco
01-10-2009, 08:57 PM
we have a owner that wines he is broke I point out why keep high priced vets ! 3-4 as to a way to hold down cost . you want tampa 2 I point out that cost .

How are you going to hold cost down when you will have to jettison two high round draft picks, several veteran starters and draft/sign replacements? ???

The only alternative would be to try to convert those players into 3-4 players, which may or may not work. If it doesn't work, you've wasted 1-2 years on that and you're back at square one.

to convert to 3-4 we will need a

NT

FS

we got a NT ILB'er in larsen

but will need a PR ILB Rey Rey will work

to convert to 4-3 and be good we will need

NT

FS

MLB spikes will work

I seem to see about the same amount of players but with the 3-4 we get rid of Wiliams and Bailey a big wad of money...

You'd need a NT, at least one DE, a couple LBs and a FS, and again that assumes that those 4-3 players work out in the 3-4.

Running the Tampa 2 will require a NT, FS and a MLB.

How is the 3-4 supposed to be cheaper again? ???

Viable? He stinks. Didn't you see him giving up the huge plays to TE and RB's before he got injured?

Look, we're not going to agree about Boss, it's just that simple...but I'm pretty confident with my analysis and he looked pretty good out there. Not all world by any stretch, but he's a solid starter who isn't a liability.

You don't like him because he's not a huge, physical SAM. You like your linebackers the same way Slap did, which is all well and good but thats the only way you can have them.

Florida_Bronco
01-10-2009, 08:58 PM
I want to run a system that was used by the Ravens in their Superbowl win and also like the System used by the Vikings. A system that has 2 big Dt to stop the run and 2 De that can rush the passer..

That's what we were going for under Bates. Unfortunately we didn't stick with it.

azbroncfan
01-10-2009, 08:59 PM
None of them work if you have the talent that Denver currently has. Talent will trump scheme and coaching 90 percent of the time.

Florida_Bronco
01-10-2009, 09:08 PM
None of them work if you have the talent that Denver currently has. Talent will trump scheme and coaching 90 percent of the time.

The talent is there, we just need to develop it.

azbroncfan
01-12-2009, 12:06 PM
The talent is there, we just need to develop it.

I'm tired of hearing that crap. Denver has garbage on the defensive side of the ball. Where is the talent? Moss hasn't shown the ability to beat guys one on one and who else has a lot of talent? The only guy who can win matchups occasionally is Dumerville who is a hinderance as a starter.

Arkansas Bronco
01-12-2009, 12:07 PM
I dont care which it is I just want one that works.

Florida_Bronco
01-12-2009, 12:31 PM
I'm tired of hearing that crap. Denver has garbage on the defensive side of the ball. Where is the talent? Moss hasn't shown the ability to beat guys one on one and who else has a lot of talent? The only guy who can win matchups occasionally is Dumerville who is a hinderance as a starter.

AZ, do you pay attention to what people say around here? Did you not see the multiple times Montrose has told us he witnessed Burney yelling at Moss but not actually teaching him anything? When was the last time we developed a DLineman? Zero in the last gazillion guys we've brought in.

Moss most definetly has talent, otherwise he wouldn't have gone in the 1st round. So does Crowder, Thomas, Robertson, DJ, Winborn, Woodyard, Bailey (both of them) Bly...etc etc.

We had a coaching issue on defense and that's the bottom line. Due to that poor coaching, we have no clue which players were not performing due to their own devices or because of that poor coaching, but I am betting the later.

Traveler
01-12-2009, 12:37 PM
one that works

what he said...

WolfpackGuy
01-12-2009, 12:38 PM
Anything that will force a punt or god forbid, a turnover!

BroncoBuff
01-12-2009, 01:08 PM
You need a big, dominant NT, which are harder and harder to find.
This is the biggest problem.


You need to big nasty DE's which are more like DTs but with DE speed, again, harder to find.
Marcus Thomas is perfect there ... as is Kenny Peterson (who played on McDaniels' high school team if you can believe that). Tim Crowder could be a 3-4 DE too.


You need 4 big ass linebackers, all of which need to be able to blitz otherwise there is no point because the 3-4's biggest advantage is blitz disguising. Why so "big"?

DJ can play in any system, as can Boss. And the 3-4 makes room for WW ... whom we need on the field.

Rohirrim
01-12-2009, 01:27 PM
I've been for a T2 type set up for the last couple of years. Now that the Broncos are at the bottom of the league in defense and the defensive roster consists of the wreckage of Shanahah's numerous "experiments," I say it's time to switch to a 3/4. Bring back the Orange Crush.

Go out and get the best S in FA you can get. The Broncos won't be able to touch Mays, Rey or Curry without trading up. Too expensive. Raji is way too risky. He's dumb and he's lazy. Take Cushing from USC. He's big. He's fast. He's smart. He's a team leader (he can tell DJ what to do). He's your Mike. Move DJ for the other inside LB and put WW out on the weak side. Coach up Jarvis Moss to be your rush OLB. Damn, Moss used to be good. He came to Denver and suddenly sucks? I don't think so. Put a little weight on him and coach him up. He was a first round pick with three more years on his contract. Invest in him. Maybe find another loose "tweener" in the third or fourth round. Grab Clay Mathews in the fourth, if he's available. Start playing Bly and Champ up, like they were meant to play. Get aggressive.

Powell took on double teams at VTech. He's healing up from his achilles. Try him at NT for a year. Put Peterson and Thomas on his wings. Pick up some other big DTs in the draft or FA is somebody good is available. Maybe next year, go hard after the dream NT or rush OLB. We're not going to the SB next year, cupcakes. Time to accept it. Meanwhile, we put together some pieces and move in the right direction. Finally, choose one scheme, start building on it, and create a defensive identity. Would this be an upgrade over 28th? I'm thinking so.

BroncoBuff
01-12-2009, 01:40 PM
Good plan, Roh ... realistic.

azbroncfan
01-12-2009, 02:47 PM
AZ, do you pay attention to what people say around here? Did you not see the multiple times Montrose has told us he witnessed Burney yelling at Moss but not actually teaching him anything? When was the last time we developed a DLineman? Zero in the last gazillion guys we've brought in.

Moss most definetly has talent, otherwise he wouldn't have gone in the 1st round. So does Crowder, Thomas, Robertson, DJ, Winborn, Woodyard, Bailey (both of them) Bly...etc etc.

We had a coaching issue on defense and that's the bottom line. Due to that poor coaching, we have no clue which players were not performing due to their own devices or because of that poor coaching, but I am betting the later.

Every player in the NFL has talent if your taking that stance. Once your in the league your draft position doesn't matter and you can quit using it as a crutch and it's time to perform. Moss was a first round pick more for the team he played on than anything else and some decent combine numbers. Outside of that he has shown nothing other than the ability to get hurt. Thomas has shown some decent stuff, Crowder has plain sucked and failed to suit up multiple times, Robertson top 5 bust, DJ average LB, Winborn average linebacker, WW looks like he will be good, B. Bailey atheltic with talent but not much production. At some point you are what you are and it's time to man up and quit talking about potential and pinning blame on someone else. Just like life FLORIDA quit making excuses for **** players.

Florida_Bronco
01-12-2009, 03:09 PM
Every player in the NFL has talent if your taking that stance. Once your in the league your draft position doesn't matter and you can quit using it as a crutch and it's time to perform. That's true, but you don't put together 5+ years in the NFL by being a scrub. These players have stuck around for a reason.

Moss was a first round pick more for the team he played on than anything else and some decent combine numbers. Outside of that he has shown nothing other than the ability to get hurt. He also hasn't been taught jack **** by our defensive staff.

Crowder has plain sucked and failed to suit up multiple times AZ, what in the hell have you been watching? Crowder played quite well for us in 07. I do not know what the deal was in 08 except that he looked decent when he was out there. I've heard speculation that he had some kind of physical ailment.

Robertson top 5 bust That's complete bull**** AZ. You simply don't know what you're talking about on that one. Robertson started every game he played in with two exceptions and put up good tackle numbers and even got 57 tackles/4 sacks playing out of position at NT. Prior to coming to Denver he never made less than 43 tackles in a season.

DJ average Yeah, he was really average when he made the midseason All-Pro team.

B. Bailey atheltic with talent but not much production. Not quite as off base as you were with Robertson, but when Boss has been on the field he's generally performed well.

At some point you are what you are and it's time to man up and quit talking about potential and pinning blame on someone else. Just like life FLORIDA quit making excuses for **** players.

On the flip side, at some point you need to learn how to evaluate players and admit that poor coaching had a major effect on our player's performance. The situation is not nearly as simple as you would have us believe.

Oh, and why did you capitalize "Florida?" ???