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View Full Version : Leslie Frazier: Not a motivator, and leader of the NFL's most underacheiving defense


montrose
01-10-2009, 09:51 AM
Broncos fans, how would you feel if I told you the Broncos were acquiring Jared Allen, Pat Williams and Kevin Williams to fortify their defensive line? Pretty excited I bet. Now what if I told you adding those pieces would only save the Broncos about a TD a game and they'd rank just 13th in the league in points allowed? That's where the Minnesota defense finished out this season, despite being projected to be one of the league's top units. The man in charge of this unit? Leslie Frazier.

Now I have continuously stated that the success of a coach as an OC or DC is not bearing on their success as a HC. The Broncos should not be looking to a hire a HC because of how well his offensive or defensive schemes performed. The Broncos need to find the best LEADER. Someone who will get the team up to play every week, empower his coordinators to run their units and inspire the team to reach new heights. Leslie Frazier is not this man. Here's what a few of his colleagues have said:

“Leslie is more of a silent type. You’re not going to see a lot of screaming and yelling from him.” - Brad Childress.

“Coach Frazier provides a form of guidance, he's the type that expects you to get up for games yourself." - Jared Allen.

“Leslie brings a sense of calm.” - Tony Dungy.

Just say no to Leslie Frazier. Why fire Mike Shanahan, the league's best offensive game planner, because of his inability to motivate the team simply to hire another passive-coach, this one of the defensive variety with obviously less talent. Under Frazier, the Broncos will continue losing games to teams like the Chiefs and Raiders and laying eggs in games with the season on the line - just as the Vikings defense struggled mightily in it's biggest games as well. Do not be swayed by "experience", the league's Top 3 Coach of the Year Candidates this year were all young without much coordinator experience (just Mike Smith). The Broncos must find the best leader of this group who will inspire the team to play hard every week while his coordinators will scheme the offense and defense.

tsiguy96
01-10-2009, 10:08 AM
ok, when pat asks us well say no to him.

SportinOne
01-10-2009, 10:16 AM
So you're just going to brush off a touchdown a game? Do you wanna know how many times all season their defense gave up 30 points?

Twice.

And while they may have adrian peterson, their offense just isn't that good, so it sort of has the same effect that our bad defense has on our offense.

For the record, our defense gave up 30 points on 9 separate occasions.

Do I think we should hire Frazier? No, but not because he's not a good coach, just because i think there are better options at this point.

BroncoBuff
01-10-2009, 10:22 AM
Bravo, montrose. Last thing we need is some stoic in an ivory tower.

montrose
01-10-2009, 10:39 AM
So you're just going to brush off a touchdown a game? Do you wanna know how many times all season their defense gave up 30 points?

Twice.

And while they may have adrian peterson, their offense just isn't that good, so it sort of has the same effect that our bad defense has on our offense.

For the record, our defense gave up 30 points on 9 separate occasions.

Do I think we should hire Frazier? No, but not because he's not a good coach, just because i think there are better options at this point.

I'm not brushing it off simply showing that I think Frazier's defensive smarts are a bit overstated considering his team with far more talent on defense managed to only give up one less TD a game than our defense with far less talent and dealing with Slowik's moronic schemes. What I am saying, essentially, is that if Frazier's unit with all of that talent, still gave up that many ppg - how many would they give up in Denver?

My main point though was that we're not hiring a DC and people need to realize that. Leslie Frazier, Raheem Morris or Steve Spagnuolo wouldn't be hired to run our defense. They'd be hired to run our TEAM. We have to look beyond 2009 and realize the person we hire as coach should be here for at least 10 years. If we're looking for a quick fix defensively, we should've hired the best DC possible to work under Shanahan. We're hiring a new face of the organization - he needs to be the best possible HC - not DC.

Hamrob
01-10-2009, 10:45 AM
I believe the best indicator of our poor defense was that we only kept our apponent under 20pts on 4 occassions. That means that 75% of our games, our apponents scored 20 or more on us.

Oh, by the way...those 4 games...where our apponents scored less than 20. Guess what? We won all 4!

BroncoBuff
01-10-2009, 10:48 AM
Leslie Frazier, Raheem Morris or Steve Spagnuolo wouldn't be hired to run our defense. They'd be hired to run our TEAM.This HC job description of motivator/CEO makes sense to me ... but because we're not considering any candidates with HC experience, I hope we're interviewing for CEO qualities, and not fixating on track records as coordinators/position coaches.


If we're looking for a quick fix defensively, we should've hired the best DC possible to work under Shanahan. We're hiring a new face of the organization - he needs to be the best possible HC - not DC.What would've been great, as Taco and others will agree, would have been Shanahan agreeing to fire the entire defensive staff, bring in a Raheem Morris as DC, and draft ALL defense. Then groom Morris to take over in a few years, with Shanny kicked upstairs.

That would've made more sense.

*SIGH*

broncocalijohn
01-10-2009, 10:53 AM
you think it might be this reason he was interviewed? Makes the NFL in NY happy.

Mediator12
01-10-2009, 10:59 AM
This HC job description of motivator/CEO makes sense to me ... but because we're not considering any candidates with HC experience, I hope we're interviewing for CEO qualities, and not fixating on track records as coordinators/position coaches.


What would've been great, as Taco and others will agree, would have been Shanahan agreeing to fire the entire defensive staff, bring in a Raheem Morris as DC, and draft ALL defense. Then groom Morris to take over in a few years, with Shanny kicked upstairs.

That would've made more sense.

*SIGH*

It would have made sense if Shanahan would have done it, but its nothing more than wishful thinking as he was not going to ever do that. Shanahan is a coach who likes to control his team from top to bottom. I do not ever see him going the Parcells route and kicking upstairs. That is not what he likes to do the most, he likes to coach.

TheReverend
01-10-2009, 11:07 AM
What would've been great, as Taco and others will agree, would have been Shanahan agreeing to fire the entire defensive staff, bring in a Raheem Morris as DC, and draft ALL defense. Then groom Morris to take over in a few years, with Shanny kicked upstairs.

That would've made more sense.

*SIGH*

But then you can't get up at a press conference in front of the sports nation and remind everyone that "I run the show"

tsiguy96
01-10-2009, 11:10 AM
But then you can't get up at a press conference in front of the sports nation and remind everyone that "I run the show"

yes you can, when your team has far less playoff wins then NORV TURNER over the past years, there is a big problem.

BroncoFiend
01-10-2009, 11:11 AM
I'm not brushing it off simply showing that I think Frazier's defensive smarts are a bit overstated considering his team with far more talent on defense managed to only give up one less TD a game than our defense with far less talent and dealing with Slowik's moronic schemes. What I am saying, essentially, is that if Frazier's unit with all of that talent, still gave up that many ppg - how many would they give up in Denver?

My main point though was that we're not hiring a DC and people need to realize that. Leslie Frazier, Raheem Morris or Steve Spagnuolo wouldn't be hired to run our defense. They'd be hired to run our TEAM. We have to look beyond 2009 and realize the person we hire as coach should be here for at least 10 years. If we're looking for a quick fix defensively, we should've hired the best DC possible to work under Shanahan. We're hiring a new face of the organization - he needs to be the best possible HC - not DC.

I couldn't agree more :)

BroncoFiend
01-10-2009, 11:12 AM
But then you can't get up at a press conference in front of the sports nation and remind everyone that "I run the show"

That statement was so telling, I just didn't realize Bowlen cared about that stuff.

TheReverend
01-10-2009, 11:13 AM
yes you can, when your team has far less playoff wins then NORV TURNER over the past years, there is a big problem.

Go order "hooked on phonics" and get back to me.

tsiguy96
01-10-2009, 11:18 AM
Go order "hooked on phonics" and get back to me.

go freak out about the future of the denver broncos when our under achieving coach just got fired :thanku:

norv turner > mike shanahan?

Ray Finkle
01-10-2009, 11:18 AM
Tony Dungy, Bill Walsh, Lovie Smith are all the same way. They are not/were not yellers.

Hallside
01-10-2009, 11:35 AM
Broncos fans, how would you feel if I told you the Broncos were acquiring Jared Allen, Pat Williams and Kevin Williams to fortify their defensive line? Pretty excited I bet. Now what if I told you adding those pieces would only save the Broncos about a TD a game and they'd rank just 13th in the league in points allowed? That's where the Minnesota defense finished out this season, despite being projected to be one of the league's top units. The man in charge of this unit? Leslie Frazier.

Now I have continuously stated that the success of a coach as an OC or DC is not bearing on their success as a HC. The Broncos should not be looking to a hire a HC because of how well his offensive or defensive schemes performed. The Broncos need to find the best LEADER. Someone who will get the team up to play every week, empower his coordinators to run their units and inspire the team to reach new heights. Leslie Frazier is not this man. Here's what a few of his colleagues have said:

“Leslie is more of a silent type. You’re not going to see a lot of screaming and yelling from him.” - Brad Childress.

“Coach Frazier provides a form of guidance, he's the type that expects you to get up for games yourself." - Jared Allen.

“Leslie brings a sense of calm.” - Tony Dungy.

Just say no to Leslie Frazier. Why fire Mike Shanahan, the league's best offensive game planner, because of his inability to motivate the team simply to hire another passive-coach, this one of the defensive variety with obviously less talent. Under Frazier, the Broncos will continue losing games to teams like the Chiefs and Raiders and laying eggs in games with the season on the line - just as the Vikings defense struggled mightily in it's biggest games as well. Do not be swayed by "experience", the league's Top 3 Coach of the Year Candidates this year were all young without much coordinator experience (just Mike Smith). The Broncos must find the best leader of this group who will inspire the team to play hard every week while his coordinators will scheme the offense and defense.

Maybe, but I think you're being too hard on Frazier, for three reasons.

First, as some other readers have already pointed out, 1 TD per game is a meaningful difference.

Second, MIN's special teams are AWFUL. They allowed 7 TD's this year, an NFL record in the modern era. When teams didn't score on MIN via a return, they usually had pretty good field position.

Third, it seems like Tony Dungy is kind of the quiet type too, yet he's still been an effective leader and HC.

Having said all that, I do NOT want Frzier, but he's a lot better and more credentialed that Morris. But really, if we do go D, it had better be Spags.

Cito Pelon
01-10-2009, 11:48 AM
Frazier is a good candidate. I don't see disaster if he's hired.

TheReverend
01-10-2009, 11:49 AM
go freak out about the future of the denver broncos when our under achieving coach just got fired :thanku:

norv turner > mike shanahan?

First off, show me my "freak out". I just disagree.

As for Norv > Mike, why don't we just check your opinion on it?

"We are almost there stop this silly firing talk, he's still the best in the business"
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75465

Public polls can be a bitch for sheep like you without spines.

tsiguy96
01-10-2009, 11:50 AM
Frazier is a good candidate. I don't see disaster if he's hired.

its impossible to see disaster with any of tehse candidates til we see how they perform.

Cito Pelon
01-10-2009, 11:57 AM
Maybe, but I think you're being too hard on Frazier, for three reasons.

First, as some other readers have already pointed out, 1 TD per game is a meaningful difference.

Second, MIN's special teams are AWFUL. They allowed 7 TD's this year, an NFL record in the modern era. When teams didn't score on MIN via a return, they usually had pretty good field position.

Third, it seems like Tony Dungy is kind of the quiet type too, yet he's still been an effective leader and HC.

Having said all that, I do NOT want Frzier, but he's a lot better and more credentialed that Morris. But really, if we do go D, it had better be Spags.

I don't see all the love for Spag. Dude never played in the NFL. Frazier played on the '85 CHI SB team, coached on the Indy SB team. Frazier I think is a better candidate than Spag.

ludo21
01-10-2009, 12:10 PM
Just because a person yells doesnt make them a motivator, their just loud.

Also, if they dont yell, they can still motivate.

Im not down on the Farzier pick if its what Bowlen wants, he has the experience.

Hallside
01-10-2009, 12:21 PM
I don't see all the love for Spag. Dude never played in the NFL. Frazier played on the '85 CHI SB team, coached on the Indy SB team. Frazier I think is a better candidate than Spag.

In some ways I don't get all the love for Spag either. (I'm a McDaniels supporter). Spag does have an aggressive defensive philosophy, which is guaranteed to be popular with the fans. And he's always fielded a solid unit. So I kind of get it I guess.

On the defensive side, the only other HC candidates I'm really excited about at all are from BAL and TEN. Maybe after today, Bowlen will add another coach or two to his interview list.

Unlike Montrose and others, however, I want a HC who is a schemer, not just a leader/cheerleader. The best models for coaching in this league are the Walsh and Parcells schools, which traditionally feature a HC who's distinguished himself as an X's and O's guy as well as a leader. McDaniels, in my opinion, has the best chance of measuring up to that very high standard.

SportinOne
01-10-2009, 12:26 PM
Some of you people are living in fantasy madden land.

No way Morris comes here unless it's for the head coaching position.

None of these guys are coming here unless it's for the head coaching position.

So then, let me ask you this: Who would you have picked as defensive coordinator if Shanny had fired Slowik?

Keep in mind, you can't pick someone that is CURRENTLY EMPLOYED AS A DC!

elsid13
01-10-2009, 12:38 PM
I don't see all the love for Spag. Dude never played in the NFL. Frazier played on the '85 CHI SB team, coached on the Indy SB team. Frazier I think is a better candidate than Spag.

Shanahan, Parcell, Walsh, Belicheat never played in the NFL and they are all HOF coaches. Right now I prefer Spags to Frazier big time. Spags appear ready to lead a team, I don't know about rest of the names.

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 12:46 PM
Frazier has how many big names on his D ? It is not like you can buy him a D with all those big names he has now and keep all the names we have on the o side of the ball ....

Spags would be the right person with the Idea he took players and made them better ...

NFLBRONCO
01-10-2009, 01:44 PM
Frazier has how many big names on his D ? It is not like you can buy him a D with all those big names he has now and keep all the names we have on the o side of the ball ....

Spags would be the right person with the Idea he took players and made them better ...


Yep Crash that is why I want Spags and it looks like a longshot now.

~Crash~
01-10-2009, 02:41 PM
Yep Crash that is why I want Spags and it looks like a longshot now.

True but if we go 3-4 with the coach we look to be getting not so bad .

3-4 you pay big money to only a few player the rest you draft .... easy to draft the players... NT get most of the money then one hell of a FS is also needed.... but the rest are easy .

Lolad
01-10-2009, 04:07 PM
True but if we go 3-4 with the coach we look to be getting not so bad .

3-4 you pay big money to only a few player the rest you draft .... easy to draft the players... NT get most of the money then one hell of a FS is also needed.... but the rest are easy .


You say it's east like we've been draftng talent on that side of the ball for years. I know mike isn't handling the picks anymore.. But there are bound to be bust. It happens for every team.

Since there isn't a DC available that I think is good enough. We need to hire Spags... Maybe he can bring his dline coach and change him to DC.

Rock Chalk
01-10-2009, 06:19 PM
I'm not brushing it off simply showing that I think Frazier's defensive smarts are a bit overstated considering his team with far more talent on defense managed to only give up one less TD a game than our defense with far less talent and dealing with Slowik's moronic schemes. What I am saying, essentially, is that if Frazier's unit with all of that talent, still gave up that many ppg - how many would they give up in Denver?

My main point though was that we're not hiring a DC and people need to realize that. Leslie Frazier, Raheem Morris or Steve Spagnuolo wouldn't be hired to run our defense. They'd be hired to run our TEAM. We have to look beyond 2009 and realize the person we hire as coach should be here for at least 10 years. If we're looking for a quick fix defensively, we should've hired the best DC possible to work under Shanahan. We're hiring a new face of the organization - he needs to be the best possible HC - not DC.

Ahh, 1 less TD a game wins us about 4 games more than we won. More importantly, no more of these 40+ point blowouts against us. That above all other things made me furious with Mike Shanahan, that he would have the team so unprepared or field a team with so little fire and talent that we could get blown out by 40+ ****ing points.

Dont get me wrong here montrose, Im not on the Frazier bandwagon.

Cito Pelon
01-10-2009, 07:46 PM
Shanahan, Parcell, Walsh, Belicheat never played in the NFL and they are all HOF coaches. Right now I prefer Spags to Frazier big time. Spags appear ready to lead a team, I don't know about rest of the names.

Well, I feel like I'm not contributing enough drivel, so that was my contribution.

TheReverend
01-10-2009, 08:03 PM
Ahh, 1 less TD a game wins us about 4 games more than we won. More importantly, no more of these 40+ point blowouts against us. That above all other things made me furious with Mike Shanahan, that he would have the team so unprepared or field a team with so little fire and talent that we could get blown out by 40+ ****ing points.

Dont get me wrong here montrose, Im not on the Frazier bandwagon.

Inconsistency is a stamp of youth. Nothing else.

Popps
01-11-2009, 02:25 AM
Inconsistency is a stamp of youth. Nothing else.

Yea, I wouldn't call a 40 pt blowout in the biggest game of the season "inconsistent." Particularly after melting down the prior two games, hence ****ting the bed and pissing away first place.

That's not inconsistent. In fact, that's consistent......ly bad.

Other young teams played well this season. Other young teams finished strong this season. Other rookie QBs took their teams deeper this season.

If we were too young and inexperienced, it's because our coach didn't put a good mix of talented vets out there with the few good young players we have.

Again... bringing us back to the problem.

footstepsfrom#27
01-11-2009, 02:40 AM
Bravo, montrose. Last thing we need is some stoic in an ivory tower.
Right! Those guys suck! ;D

http://rerevealed.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/tom-landry.jpg

Popps
01-11-2009, 03:24 AM
Al I know is that I want to see some mofos flying around and knocking people out like the Ravens were doing today.

I just can't wait to see this team get big, nasty and physical again.

There was a time that teams didn't want to come to Mile High.

Paladin
01-11-2009, 10:51 AM
You guys are all off base. Dre Bly is the answer.......

Need ten yards? Over Bly. Need to run for thirty? Over Dre Bly.


All the crud about a Dline making Bly "better" is crap. Bly blew it big time in games this year for the Broncos except one where the QB ran into him and fell over him......

Getting rid of midget CBs and getting a S would help.....

TheReverend
01-11-2009, 10:55 AM
Yea, I wouldn't call a 40 pt blowout in the biggest game of the season "inconsistent." Particularly after melting down the prior two games, hence ****ting the bed and pissing away first place.

That's not inconsistent. In fact, that's consistent......ly bad.

Other young teams played well this season. Other young teams finished strong this season. Other rookie QBs took their teams deeper this season.

If we were too young and inexperienced, it's because our coach didn't put a good mix of talented vets out there with the few good young players we have.

Again... bringing us back to the problem.

Which other young teams didn't have a blow out loss, or two, or three, or...?

And show me the opportunities passed up where we could've gotten some solid defensive vets? The FA market has been bare and that's an understatement.

montrose
01-11-2009, 11:01 AM
Ahh, 1 less TD a game wins us about 4 games more than we won. More importantly, no more of these 40+ point blowouts against us. That above all other things made me furious with Mike Shanahan, that he would have the team so unprepared or field a team with so little fire and talent that we could get blown out by 40+ ****ing points.

Dont get me wrong here montrose, Im not on the Frazier bandwagon.

I hear you Rock Chalk, my thoughts (from a defensive X's and O's standpoint) are that Frazier's D gave up 1 less TD than our did but with far more talent. If we have Bob Slowik Minnesota's DL I'd expect to see that kind of improvement. I don't even know if Frazier is (from a defensive wizardry standpoint) an upgrade over Slowik based on his underachieving units. While Slowik was a god awful DC, we can also say he had sucky talent. Minnesota's defense should've been in the top 5, minimum.

With that said, I'd still be fine with hiring Frazier if were the best leader among the candidates. As I've repeatedly said, to me it's most important to get a great HC and not a great coordinator. For me personally, I think Tony Dungy 2.0 is the last thing this team needs.