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View Full Version : The Official Why We Think Firing Mike was a Bad Decision Thread


TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:25 PM
Naturally, I can't speak for everyone that agrees with me on this, but I'm going to anyways. Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind. Yes, we will be behind the next regime and no we will not pull any "I told you so" cards. We're BRONCO fans first, after all. Now, I'll highlight to the best of my ability, why I believe the Shanahan move was a bad idea. I'll also bring up the arguments that have been posed at me for why he should have been fired and give explanations to those.

So please, before posting any stupid, disparaging comments about Shanahan or the offense of how defense sucks etc, just read through this quick post and it may very well have already posed a counter argument that might even make your end of the discussion more intelligent.

Without further ado...
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"The offense sucks!"

-Absolutely false. #2 in the NFL, and a whopping 6.2 yards per play. That's extremely impressive by any standard. More impressive when you contrast it with the team's time of possession ranked 25th in the NFL.

Mediator, a great poster even threw this one at me: "Yeah, but we're only 16th in scoring"

-Which is silly because he knows better. Short fields are what puts points on the board and Denver was last in the league in take aways by a large margin. The top scoring teams are a very good blend of the top offensive rankings and top takeaways.

The next poster commenting on the offense even said that we weren't good on third down versus Jake Plummer

-2008's Broncos offense had a #2 in the NFL outstanding 3rd down conversion rate of 48%. That's DYNAMIC. In Jake Plummer's most efficient 3rd down season in Denver he had a 36% rate conversion rate.

Here's a popular one: "Shanahan can't field a good defense!"

-Actually, not remotely true. Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. That's very, very good... especially over a 14 year span.

"The defense sucks. We need a defensively minded coach!"

-Then maybe you'll find this interesting. Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him (Disclaimer: I don't approve of a Bill Cowher signing)

"One playoff win in a decade"

-This IS a decent argument. During this decade, the AFC HAS been the dominant conference. The only coaches to have gone as far without Tom Brady or Peyton Manning were Bill Cowher (7 play off wins, 2 AFFCG appearances, 1 SB win), Brian Billick (5 play off wins, 1 SB win), Fischer (5 play off wins, 1 SB appearance, 0 play off wins in a longgggggg time) and recently Norval (2 play off wins, 1 AFCCG appearance)

For those that are curious: Dungy has posted 7 play off wins, 1 AFCCG appearance, and 1 SB win. Belicek has won 14 ****in play off games, 3 Superbowls, 1 AFCCG appearance, 1 SB appearance.

"Well Mike built this mess"

-True, but it's also widely known that he heavily relies on his staff, despite no official "GM". Reference the improvements in the drafts since his exit.

"We got blown out in the AFCCG"

-Yes. Which lead to a ballsy move in scrapping the team. Players need to execute and many were in place for game changing plays. Champ had a pick bounce off his hands (excusable considering the shoulder harness). Nick Ferguson nearly got hit in the helmet wide open. And, naturally, the offense showed it didn't have the firepower. So, instead of making the safe move and beefing the defense with stacked draft picks, he went for something his always competitive record never lent him to, a franchise QB. Which leads us to...

"The defense has sucked the past 2 years"

-Yes it has. I'm 100% sure everyone's aware of this. Al Wilson's injury hurt severely and it's hardly something you can see coming or plan for. The FA market has been bare on the defensive side of the ball, and the few players who have even been moderately above average at need spots for Denver have been paid gaudy amounts of money (reference Gibril Wilson and Tommy Kelly in Oakland).

"Okay, why not recently drafting defensive talent?"

-If you just got a franchise quarterback, you want to put all the tools around him to succeed. Three years of draft picks

Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Dumerville, Hixon, Kuper, Eslinger, Myers, Moss, Crowder, Harris, Thomas, Clady, Royal, Lichtensteiger, Williams, Torain, Powell, Larsen, Barrett, Hillis.

That's 21 picks, 67% to the offensive side of the ball. Of the other 33% only 2 were picked before round 4, and one rookie was on the IR all season at a need position.

"He should've drafted more on defense early"

-Then who would you like to give up? Cutler? Clady? Royal? Scheffler?

"He busted on Moss and Crowder"

-Maybe. It certainly doesn't look good for them, right NOW. Regardless, it's been pretty obvious that the last three drafts were on the Goodmans. That was confirmed at the press conference when Mike gave credit to them (not scapegoating because those last three drafts were brilliant on the whole), and they still have their jobs, but are every bit as responsible for the state of the D.

"Then what about the defense going forward? We need someone who can fix it!"

-Well, I think having a career defensive ranking better than Hall of Fame "defensive minds" like Belicek, Dungy and Fischer shows he's capable of fielding a defense. We have more a ****load of cap room in a FA period that's richer on D than any I can remember. We also have a ****load of draft picks with an offense that's already loaded. The situation is ripe for a FAST turnaround for the defense.

"Travis Henry. Javon Walker"

-Javon Walker was a great player here until his final knee injury that required microfracture surgery and destroyed his career. He also did some good damage to Oak's cap on the way out !Booya!

-Travis Henry was a DOMINANT player the prior year in Tenn and a sought after FA. Anyone that claims they knew he'd have the dozen injuries the following season, pop the drug test, and father 100 kids before the signing is full of ****.

That might just be everything, though I'm sure someone will have plenty to say about it. Feel free. This wasn't to change your mind. Just to explain our position.

Lastly, if you think myself, Taco, SoCal, Sureshot, ColonelBeef and a few others are irritating because we share this belief, keep in mind it's not nearly as irritating as the sheer volume of weasely, follow the crowd, traitors that many of you have turned out to be as evidenced by the following PUBLIC polls.

First poll 12-22
81% Mike stays 19% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75257

Second poll (day after charger game, so I can understand a few turning) 12-29
72% Mike stays 28% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75465

Third poll (Day of firing-AFTER firing) 12-30
44% Mike stays 56% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75595

Final poll 1-5
39% Mike stays 61% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75855

So, from the end of the season (after Charger game), 33% of Shanahan supporters have jumped shipped for no other reason than Pat Bowlen saying "I have terminated Mike Shanahan"

The end.

DBBBSBS
01-07-2009, 07:26 PM
It is a great decision to fire. so get over it and STFU

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:27 PM
Denver writers: feel free to steal whatever makes your job easier than the usual copy and paste you do from the Mane.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:28 PM
It is a great decision to fire. so get over it and STFU

Very intelligent post!

Inkana7
01-07-2009, 07:29 PM
You know, you're on to something. Send it to Pat, I'm sure after he's done reading it he'll beg Mike to come back.

Tombstone RJ
01-07-2009, 07:30 PM
Hmmm... long initial post, almost too long, but a change was needed. I grew tired of the mediocrity.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:32 PM
You know, you're on to something. Send it to Pat, I'm sure after he's done reading it he'll beg Mike to come back.

You missed this part, huh?

"Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind"

I know it's hard to see, right at the very beginning of the ****ing post.

Florida_Bronco
01-07-2009, 07:33 PM
At first I was extremely unhappy with the firing, but now I'm starting to think it was the right move.

The simple fact of the matter was that Shanny had too much power, which had led to a "good ole boy" system in the coaching ranks and took away from his ability to effectively coach. Unfortunately Shanny wasn't going to give up that power so we'll have to go another way.

I'm sure that a change of scenery will be good for the Broncos and Shanny. If Shanny resumes coaching, I'm sure he'll bring success to whichever team he is with.

Inkana7
01-07-2009, 07:36 PM
You missed this part, huh?

"Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind"

I know it's hard to see, right at the very beginning of the ****ing post.

You're right. But you know what is hard to see? Why you're still so latched on to this whole thing. Guess what? It happened. I expected a degree of b****ing and moaning and pleading after the firing, but I expected it to end by now. I guess not.

This thread was kind of a waste of energy. Although I did enjoy the Waiting clip.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:41 PM
You're right. But you know what is hard to see? Why you're still so latched on to this whole thing. Guess what? It happened. I expected a degree of b****ing and moaning and pleading after the firing, but I expected it to end by now. I guess not.

This thread was kind of a waste of energy. Although I did enjoy the Waiting clip.

Nothing about this thread is remotely bitching. In fact, it's meant to explain to the people bitching AT US for actually having a pair WHY we still believe he's the right man for the guy, unlike the near half of the ****ing orangemane who jumped ship for no reason whatsoever.

Why "latched"? Because every ****ing thread is "WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY" and then stupid false comments about Shanahan. Ignorant statements left and right. There ARE points to made for his firing, but I'll be damned if they aren't few and far between. So that's WHY. One thread, where it's all answered and can be addressed.

Now, if you'd like to add something smart to the discussion, by all means, do so.

DBBBSBS
01-07-2009, 07:44 PM
Very intelligent post!

Yes it is.. may be you are a kind of guy.. who still has love for you had for the girl across ur house, the college sweet heart and all... get over the past and try to move forward.

He was a good coach , but it is time for broncos to move on. If it still makes u think it is not good. go up to one of the mountains and scream as loud as u can for as long as u can or just sleep

Inkana7
01-07-2009, 07:45 PM
Nothing about this thread is remotely b****ing. In fact, it's meant to explain to the people b****ing AT US for actually having a pair WHY we still believe he's the right man for the guy, unlike the near half of the ****ing orangemane who jumped ship for no reason whatsoever.

Why "latched"? Because every ****ing thread is "WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY" and then stupid false comments about Shanahan. Ignorant statements left and right. There ARE points to made for his firing, but I'll be damned if they aren't few and far between. So that's WHY. One thread, where it's all answered and can be addressed.

Now, if you'd like to add something smart to the discussion, by all means, do so.
Noble. However, in the threads I hang out in, mostly news updates about the coaching searches, the Shanahan debates have been started by those who think the firing was a bad idea. Usually like:

I just hope we hired the best guy out there!
Poster who thinks the firing was a mistake: We just fired him! Har Har Har!

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:49 PM
Noble. However, in the threads I hang out in, mostly news updates about the coaching searches, the Shanahan debates have been started by those who think the firing was a bad idea. Usually like:


Poster who thinks the firing was a mistake: We just fired him! Har Har Har!

Feel free to show a few examples?

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:50 PM
Yes it is.. may be you are a kind of guy.. who still has love for you had for the girl across ur house, the college sweet heart and all... get over the past and try to move forward.

He was a good coach , but it is time for broncos to move on. If it still makes u think it is not good. go up to one of the mountains and scream as loud as u can for as long as u can or just sleep

Not quite... I just have the balls to stand up for what I believe in. If you disagree, feel free to address the OP. Otherwise, keep your baseless stupidity in a diff thread, please.

DBBBSBS
01-07-2009, 07:53 PM
Not quite... I just have the balls to stand up for what I believe in. If you disagree, feel free to address the OP. Otherwise, keep your baseless stupidity in a diff thread, please.

If you made up some stupid argument and want others only to praise it.. go host yourself at another site

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 07:56 PM
If you made up some stupid argument and want others only to praise it.. go host yourself at another site

No. It's a thread explaining my (and by extension, some others) points of view on the biggest decision in the Denver Broncos organization in a decade.

If you think that belongs on another site, then I think you're a little confused on what the point of the Orangemane.com is and might want to get a remedial education. Judging from your conversational skills, might I suggest you start at Pre-K?

baja
01-07-2009, 07:59 PM
Well Reverend now I know where you've been the last couple of hours. That's a nice piece of work there.
I have been one of the guys that continually voted for Mike to have one more season. I have recently changed my mind on that and now agree with the firing and my reasons are quite simple. I commend Mike for what he has accomplished on the O side of the ball and what he has orchestrated with the Goodmans with the last three drafts on O, I do think in those two areas he had us moving in the right direction. His downfall IMO is his inability to address the D. That side of the ball has become worse and worse over the last 3 seasons and with the promise to Slowik it appears that it will not turn around anytime soon. <b>Windows of opportunity are narrow in todays NFL.</b> We can't afford to have a wait and see approach with the D because Mike has shown glaring weakness there with bad drafts and his insane intention to keep Slowik. In short he really forced Bowlen's hand. I truly believe we will be a better team with Mike gone and it does pain me to say so. There will never be a proving of either side on this so thanks for all the work on this thread and this is my take...

Pseudofool
01-07-2009, 08:01 PM
These are fine lists of counter arguments. Largely they look backwards, with hindsight, to justify their positions.

But the real argument is whether Shanahan is the best coach going forward. So with that, let me ask a few questions:

What precisely in the recent past gives you hope that Shanahan can fix the defense going forward?

Do you believe Shanahan would have fired Slowik? Can you justify keeping him?

What precisely in the recent past gives you confidence that Shanahan will bring in the right FAs?

What gives you confidence that Shanahan can utilize high round picks on defense that will work out?

There are more questions like these, but the point is, the onus is on Shanny-defenders to provide a credible argument that looks forward (and without resorting to what's already worked well (Cutler/offense), as it didn't work well enough).

Finger Roll
01-07-2009, 08:02 PM
get over it already

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:05 PM
These are fine lists of counter arguments. Largely they look backwards, with hindsight, to justify their positions.

But the real argument is whether Shanahan is the best coach going forward. So with that, let me ask a few questions:

What precisely in the recent past gives you hope that Shanahan can fix the defense going forward?

Do you believe Shanahan would have fired Slowik? Can you justify keeping him?

What precisely in the recent past gives you confidence that Shanahan will bring in the right FAs?

What gives you confidence that Shanahan can utilize high round picks on defense that will work out?

There are more questions like these, but the point is, the onus is on Shanny-defenders to provide a credible argument that looks forward (and without resorting to what's already worked well (Cutler/offense), as it didn't work well enough).

I answered every single one of those questions in the OP aside from if I believe he would have kept/fired Slowik, and the answer is simply, "I don't know". We DO have reason to believe, however, that he would've made the right choice considering his track record is extremely good on the defensive side of the ball through his career.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:06 PM
Well Reverend now I know where you've been the last couple of hours. That's a nice piece of work there.
I have been one of the guys that continually voted for Mike to have one more season. I have recently changed my mind on that and now agree with the firing and my reasons are quite simple. I commend Mike for what he has accomplished on the O side of the ball and what he has orchestrated with the Goodmans with the last three drafts on O, I do think in those two areas he had us moving in the right direction. His downfall IMO is his inability to address the D. That side of the ball has become worse and worse over the last 3 seasons and with the promise to Slowik it appears that it will not turn around anytime soon. <b>Windows of opportunity are narrow in todays NFL.</b> We can't afford to have a wait and see approach with the D because Mike has shown glaring weakness there with bad drafts and his insane intention to keep Slowik. In short he really forced Bowlen's hand. I truly believe we will be a better team with Mike gone and it does pain me to say so. There will never be a proving of either side on this so thanks for all the work on this thread and this is my take...

I addressed your concerns in the OP. You can take them up from there if you'd like, Baja.

GreatBronco16
01-07-2009, 08:09 PM
Naturally, I can't speak for everyone that agrees with me on this, but I'm going to anyways.


:oyvey:

bowtown
01-07-2009, 08:12 PM
I agree with your stupid argument.

Rulon Velvet Jones
01-07-2009, 08:12 PM
Shanahan took his firing like a man. Some of the fans might want to do the same.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:15 PM
Shanahan took his firing like a man. Some of the fans might want to do the same.

Who's not?

baja
01-07-2009, 08:16 PM
I addressed your concerns in the OP. You can take them up from there if you'd like, Baja.

No you're missing the point here. I believe we came to a point where it became obvious that a coaching change made more sense that continuing with Shanahan, the hallmark of that point was his insistence in keeping Slowik and no amount of 14 years of averaging stats or comparing him to other coaches in that time frame will change the reality of his time to move on has come, it happens. Bowlen really said it best, "It's time for a change" some see it some don't agree. There really nothing more to discuss on this.

Pseudofool
01-07-2009, 08:18 PM
I answered every single one of those questions in the OP aside from if I believe he would have kept/fired Slowik, and the answer is simply, "I don't know". We DO have reason to believe, however, that he would've made the right choice considering his track record is extremely good on the defensive side of the ball through his career.Reread it to make sure I didn't miss it; but you didn't answer these questions, but rather related ones that focus pretty narrowly on the past. What I mean is you defended Shanny's record, but you didn't really provide a consistent argument about how his record makes him the best person going forward. Looking less for rankings and statistics, here, and more for a rationalization. I didn't mean to imply you needed to answer each question, but rather I just wanted to see a well-reasoned argument about why Shanny is the best GM/Coach to address our weaknesses and maintain our strengths going forward.

bowtown
01-07-2009, 08:22 PM
No you're missing the point here. I believe we came to a point where it became obvious that a coaching change made more sense that continuing with Shanahan, the hallmark of that point was his insistence in keeping Slowik and no amount of 14 years of averaging stats or comparing him to other coaches in that time frame will change the reality of his time to move on has come, it happens. Bowlen really said it best, "It's time for a change" some see it some don't agree. There really nothing more to discuss on this.

This thread wasn't started to be a discussion about whether or not people believe he should have been fired. It was to explain the rational behind why some people think he shouldn't have been.

TonyR
01-07-2009, 08:23 PM
2006:
Dec 10 San Diego 48-20
Dec 31 San Francisco 26-23

2007:
Sep 30 Indianapolis 38-20
Oct 7 San Diego 41-3
Nov 4 Detroit 44-7
Dec 2 Oakland 34-20
Dec 13 Houston 31-13
Dec 24 San Diego 23-3

2008:
Sep 28 Kansas City 33-19
Oct 20 New England 41-7
Nov 2 Miami 26-17
Nov 23 Oakland 31-10
Dec 14 Carolina 30-10
Dec 21 Buffalo 30-23
Dec 28 San Diego 52-21

Each of these are nails in my personal Mike Shanahan coffin. In isolation none of these losses are necessarily all that profound (except maybe the thrashing by the Lions), but cumulatively they are very profound. They show a team that can't beat teams that it should beat, that can't play with the big boys, and that can't win the big game. They show a team in desperate need of change. Pat Bowlen recognized this and made the difficult decision. The right decision.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:24 PM
Reread it to make sure I didn't miss it; but you didn't answer these questions, but rather related ones that focus pretty narrowly on the past. What I mean is you defended Shanny's record, but you didn't really provide a consistent argument about how his record makes him the best person going forward. Looking less for rankings and statistics, here, and more for a rationalization.

Okay, maybe these make more sense when they're on their own. In RE to your questions:

"What gives you confidence that Shanahan can utilize high round picks on defense that will work out?" and by extension "What precisely in the recent past gives you confidence that Shanahan will bring in the right FAs?" and also by extension "What precisely in the recent past gives you hope that Shanahan can fix the defense going forward?"

Answer: I brought up how much more successful the drafts have been under the Goodman's but how their offensive focus has made the defense suffer along with a barren defensive FA market.

Also this: "-Well, I think having a career defensive ranking better than Hall of Fame "defensive minds" like Belicek, Dungy and Fischer shows he's capable of fielding a defense. We have more a ****load of cap room in a FA period that's richer on D than any I can remember. We also have a ****load of draft picks with an offense that's already loaded. The situation is ripe for a FAST turnaround for the defense."

To expand: The FA market is INSANE with talent at our needs
The best DT in the NFL will be available (Haynesworth)
The best 4-3 DE in the NFL will be available (Peppers)
The best MLB in the NFL (despite age) will be available (Lewis)
Two of the top 10 safeties in the NFL will be available (Phillips and Atogwe)

Maybe some don't make it, or we're priced out of reason despite over 30 million in cap space and maybe more after some cuts. Then we have a draft with players like: Curry, Spikes, Maualuga, Laurinitis, Mays, Moore, Johnson, Chung.

The potential to turn this D around in an off-season is remarkable!

Willynowei
01-07-2009, 08:25 PM
Thats from Waiting?? I never get references like that, why is that people always refer to lines from movies but i NEVER REMEMBER them i freakin hate that.

Not to detract from the thread topic though, I'm almost as big a fan of Shanhan as I am a Bronco fan, I'll try to watch every game he coaches for the rest of his career (Just look at my Avatar).

That said, initially i hated the timing of this firing because i thought it #1 cheated Mike because he invested in the long term when he took on this rebuilding project and #2 Felt like the decision was made without enough research.

Well after a lil while i've realized that the timing is actually pretty good because #1, who cares this is the NFL, and #2.) The Coaches market looks very ripe with defensive geniuses this year, you got 3 top DC's comming out this year thats reason enough to look for a change, atleast at DC.

Finally, the Bucs basically took Dungy's Defense, retained his Coordinator and won a superbowl by grabbing a new offensive minded head coach and I think if we retain Bates and those guys and they can keep that side of the ball going, then this may very well have been a great move because now you can bring in a guy like Rex Ryan or Spags and you've got a superbowl level team almost instantly.

Conversley if Shanahan goes to a team with great defensive talent like the Vikings next year, he might have those guys in the Superbowl in almost no time as well.

So as a Bronco fan and a Shanahan fan, I approve of this firing.

baja
01-07-2009, 08:26 PM
This thread wasn't started to be a discussion about whether or not people believe he should have been fired. It was to explain the rational behind why some people think he shouldn't have been.

I provided my rational as to why I agree with the firing

Did I miss something what is your point.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:27 PM
2006:
Dec 10 San Diego 48-20
Dec 31 San Francisco 26-23

2007:
Sep 30 Indianapolis 38-20
Oct 7 San Diego 41-3
Nov 4 Detroit 44-7
Dec 2 Oakland 34-20
Dec 13 Houston 31-13
Dec 24 San Diego 23-3

2008:
Sep 28 Kansas City 33-19
Oct 20 New England 41-7
Nov 2 Miami 26-17
Nov 23 Oakland 31-10
Dec 14 Carolina 30-10
Dec 21 Buffalo 30-23
Dec 28 San Diego 52-21

Each of these are nails in my personal Mike Shanahan coffin. In isolation none of these losses are necessarily all that profound (except maybe the thrashing by the Lions), but cumulatively they are very profound. They show a team that can't beat teams that it should beat, that can't play with the big boys, and that can't win the big game. They show a team in desperate need of change. Pat Bowlen recognized this and made the difficult decision. The right decision.

That's a good argument to add to the OP.

Young teams are very inconsistent. It's why you only have a 3 year sample size instead of more. Before then, it was a veteran team. A consistent team.

Once again though, this thread is hardly to change your opinion. Just to explain mine and show actual facts of why I'm at that conclusion.

Pseudofool
01-07-2009, 08:29 PM
Okay, maybe these make more sense when they're on their own. In RE to your questions:

"What gives you confidence that Shanahan can utilize high round picks on defense that will work out?" and by extension "What precisely in the recent past gives you confidence that Shanahan will bring in the right FAs?" and also by extension "What precisely in the recent past gives you hope that Shanahan can fix the defense going forward?"

Answer: I brought up how much more successful the drafts have been under the Goodman's but how their offensive focus has made the defense suffer along with a barren defensive FA market.

Also this: "-Well, I think having a career defensive ranking better than Hall of Fame "defensive minds" like Belicek, Dungy and Fischer shows he's capable of fielding a defense. We have more a ****load of cap room in a FA period that's richer on D than any I can remember. We also have a ****load of draft picks with an offense that's already loaded. The situation is ripe for a FAST turnaround for the defense."

To expand: The FA market is INSANE with talent at our needs
The best DT in the NFL will be available (Haynesworth)
The best 4-3 DE in the NFL will be available (Peppers)
The best MLB in the NFL (despite age) will be available (Lewis)
Two of the top 10 safeties in the NFL will be available (Phillips and Atogwe)

Maybe some don't make it, or we're priced out of reason despite over 30 million in cap space and maybe more after some cuts. Then we have a draft with players like: Curry, Spikes, Maualuga, Laurinitis, Mays, Moore, Johnson, Chung.

The potential to turn this D around in an off-season is remarkable!Not to be coy, but your defense of Shanny going forward (on defense) is the Goodmans and the large FA market? Really, it seems like you are making the argument in spite of Shanahan, rather than because of him.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:29 PM
Thats from Waiting?? I never get references like that, why is that people always refer to lines from movies but i NEVER REMEMBER them i freakin hate that.

Not to detract from the thread topic though, I'm almost as big a fan of Shanhan as I am a Bronco fan, I'll try to watch every game he coaches for the rest of his career (Just look at my Avatar).

That said, initially i hated the timing of this firing because i thought it #1 cheated Mike because he invested in the long term when he took on this rebuilding project and #2 Felt like the decision was made without enough research.

Well after a lil while i've realized that the timing is actually pretty good because #1, who cares this is the NFL, and #2.) The Coaches market looks very ripe with defensive geniuses this year, you got 3 top DC's comming out this year thats reason enough to look for a change, atleast at DC.

Finally, the Bucs basically took Dungy's Defense, retained his Coordinator and won a superbowl by grabbing a new offensive minded head coach and I think if we retain Bates and those guys and they can keep that side of the ball going, then this may very well have been a great move because now you can bring in a guy like Rex Ryan or Spags and you've got a superbowl level team almost instantly.

Conversley if Shanahan goes to a team with great defensive talent like the Vikings next year, he might have those guys in the Superbowl in almost no time as well.

So as a Bronco fan and a Shanahan fan, I approve of this firing.

This is a good post. But I did show how his career record on D is better than these HoF defensive geniuses outside of Cowher.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:31 PM
Not to be coy, but your defense of Shanny going forward (on defense) is the Goodmans and the large FA market? Really, it seems like you are making the argument in spite of Shanahan, rather than because of him.

Did you miss the main theme a SECOND time, or just disagree with it?

"Well, I think having a career defensive ranking better than Hall of Fame "defensive minds" like Belicek, Dungy and Fischer shows he's capable of fielding a defense."

MplsBronco
01-07-2009, 08:32 PM
You missed this part, huh?

"Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind"

I know it's hard to see, right at the very beginning of the ****ing post.

You're assuming people want to read your crap.

bowtown
01-07-2009, 08:32 PM
I provided my rational as to why I agree with the firing

Did I miss something what is your point.

Yes, there are several other threads already where that would fit nicely. This is a thread disecting why you don't agree with it.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:38 PM
You're assuming people want to read your crap.

Ouch. That hurts deep. Let me get back in line to read the endless stream of dog**** you spew.

TonyR
01-07-2009, 08:42 PM
It's why you only have a 3 year sample size instead of more.

True to a degree, but the main reason is that I didn't start really doubting until 2006.

Popps
01-07-2009, 08:43 PM
There's already an official thread for this.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75568

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:45 PM
True to a degree, but the main reason is that I didn't start really doubting until 2006.

Well then you can feel free to go back and look through the previous years.

2005 DID have that opening meltdown in Miami. Other than that, blow outs were pretty rare. There was the occasional trap game (Falcons come to mind, as does the Oakland snow game) but that **** happens to every team. It became a lot more common recently because of the youth... not a stale message (how a message could get stale to people with a few years in the league is beyond me)

Garcia Bronco
01-07-2009, 08:46 PM
You nailed it Rev.

TheReverend
01-07-2009, 08:46 PM
There's already an official thread for this.

http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75568

You're just doing your damndest to keep that in TJ's face as long as you can. I still agree with every word! :thumbs:

CEH
01-07-2009, 08:47 PM
3 DC in 3 years and there was a outcry after the season to make it 4 DCs in 4years.

Last 7 games of '06 since the SD debacle
'06 27 ppg on D last in the league
'07 25 ppg 28th in the league
'08 28 ppg 30th in the league

The D was falling apart at the seams.

"I'm here everyday" tells me the communication between Shanny and Bowlen had deterioried beyond repair

In the end Bowlen's not even flying on the team's charter


What if Bowlen looked around the league and saw how ATL and MIA turned things around and wanted to go to a GM/coach hiearachy. Maybe Mike said he was not willing to give up power. WHat's Bowlen to do. Give in to Mike or make a decision to go in another direction.

I probably would have given Shanny one more year but Bowlen's gut told him it was time to move on. Not usual for successfull businessmen to make tough decision based on gut feel.

Popps
01-07-2009, 08:56 PM
You're just doing your damndest to keep that in TJ's face as long as you can. I still agree with every word! :thumbs:

Hey, that's super!

Let me check my post... maybe I asked you if you agreed and don't remember....

DenverBrit
01-07-2009, 08:56 PM
Ask again in two years!

DBBBSBS
01-07-2009, 09:00 PM
No. It's a thread explaining my (and by extension, some others) points of view on the biggest decision in the Denver Broncos organization in a decade.

If you think that belongs on another site, then I think you're a little confused on what the point of the Orangemane.com is and might want to get a remedial education. Judging from your conversational skills, might I suggest you start at Pre-K?

i said go host yourself if u cannot hear negative comments.. what part of it , your brain cannot understand. dont you know about hosting urself a website... should i be telling u everything like a pre-k kid... no wonder u mentioned that above.

pat owns the team, and he did well for the team always. worry about ur future and let him worry more about the team

Pseudofool
01-07-2009, 09:01 PM
Did you miss the main theme a SECOND time, or just disagree with it?

"Well, I think having a career defensive ranking better than Hall of Fame "defensive minds" like Belicek, Dungy and Fischer shows he's capable of fielding a defense." I dismissed it out of hand. That's not a reason going forward, that's defense of his record. And really, fails to look at the short term. Are this year's numbers factored into your rankings? Worse it's a generalization about the past, that says NOTHING SPECIFIC about going forward. IMO, this is the lynchpin of your case for keeping Shanahan, and it's not very convincing.

baja
01-07-2009, 09:05 PM
Ask again in two years!

Tens of thousands of words will have been written by than but you are right it's gonna take a couple of years to assess this change and even then it will be more speculation than hard fact.

Rohirrim
01-07-2009, 09:05 PM
Maybe if the Rev clicks his heels together three times, Shanny will come back.

CEH
01-07-2009, 09:07 PM
I dismissed it out of hand. That's not a reason going forward, that's defense of his record. And really, fails to look at the short term. Are this year's numbers factored into your rankings? Worse it's a generalization about the past, that says NOTHING SPECIFIC about going forward. IMO, this is the lynchpin of your case for keeping Shanahan, and it's not very convincing.

The worst two year defensive period since 1967-1968.

SureShot
01-07-2009, 09:22 PM
Your time could be better spent on the ShamWow Thong Project.

Broncojef
01-07-2009, 09:24 PM
Its so depressing to even see threads like this. You can run the stats, the numbers say he's a HOF coach as much as you want the fact is he was doing a lousy job and some of us including Bowlen were tired of the excuses, scapegoats and getting embarrassed. The Broncos under Shanny lately were like an oppossum...they played dead at home and got killed on the road. How anyone can stand up or argue how great Shanny's teams were on Defense after this past season is just mind numbing. Consistently no pass rush blah blah blah

Broncojef
01-07-2009, 09:25 PM
2006:
Dec 10 San Diego 48-20
Dec 31 San Francisco 26-23

2007:
Sep 30 Indianapolis 38-20
Oct 7 San Diego 41-3
Nov 4 Detroit 44-7
Dec 2 Oakland 34-20
Dec 13 Houston 31-13
Dec 24 San Diego 23-3

2008:
Sep 28 Kansas City 33-19
Oct 20 New England 41-7
Nov 2 Miami 26-17
Nov 23 Oakland 31-10
Dec 14 Carolina 30-10
Dec 21 Buffalo 30-23
Dec 28 San Diego 52-21

Each of these are nails in my personal Mike Shanahan coffin. In isolation none of these losses are necessarily all that profound (except maybe the thrashing by the Lions), but cumulatively they are very profound. They show a team that can't beat teams that it should beat, that can't play with the big boys, and that can't win the big game. They show a team in desperate need of change. Pat Bowlen recognized this and made the difficult decision. The right decision.

REP!!! My personal list of shame is above, well done Tony!!!

Atlas
01-07-2009, 09:45 PM
Shanny totally rebuilt the offense in just three years from the 2005 AFC Championship team. He deserved at least one more year to improve the defense.

SportinOne
01-07-2009, 11:03 PM
Waiting is an awful movie. You can't post something like that and expect anyone to take you seriously.

wolf754life
01-07-2009, 11:13 PM
I sounded the alarm long before it was popular, I saw the warning signs, I saw the future, and pat bowlen kept denying the facts, until he realized that it was all over for the rat.

Its over rev, he is gone, forever from the broncos. Move on my friend, this looking back does no one any favors.

I was right about firing shanahan, thats a fact.

tsiguy96
01-07-2009, 11:14 PM
soooo did you hope to accomplish something with this thread? maybe change pats mind? think this will affect anything the broncos will ever do?

get over it, shanahan is gone, hes not coming back ever. we will have a new coach in a few weeks. when we do, you better not bump this thread after every loss, because i gaurantee you are planning on it.

gunns
01-07-2009, 11:30 PM
-Actually, not remotely true. Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. That's very, very good... especially over a 14 year span.


I think this is trying to pad your argument. No one is arguing what Shanahan did early on. An average will only help your cause so I'm sure that's why you used it. Look at the defense the past 3 years and it has steadily gotten worse. It isn't that Shanahan can't field a defense, it's that he hasn't.

Then maybe you'll find this interesting. Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him (Disclaimer: I don't approve of a Bill Cowher signing)

Again you're using averages. Let's look at the teams that have been the top teams each year. Look at Pitt and Tenn this year. Where do they rank defensively? Also when it comes to stats, they don't always tell the whole story. I remember the year Indy won the SB. Their D sucked....until the playoffs when their D finally showed up. A prime example of offenses winning games, and defense winning championships. Did anyone here have to see the Broncos defensive stats to know how bad they were?

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. If people have moved on...then why? I understand people not agreeing but it is what it is.

SoCalBronco
01-07-2009, 11:53 PM
I think this is trying to pad your argument. No one is arguing what Shanahan did early on. An average will only help your cause so I'm sure that's why you used it. Look at the defense the past 3 years and it has steadily gotten worse. It isn't that Shanahan can't field a defense, it's that he hasn't.

.

But that isn't true. I'm not sure why you are dismissing an average. We realize that the last few years were pretty bad, but the question presented is whether Shanahan has been able to build periods of good defenses. The answer is yes. That he has had a rough patch recently doesn't change that.

We had a very good defense not too long ago under Coyer, considering that we had very little pass rush. From 2003 through the first half of 2006, we had a rather good defense. Well above average. For a time in 2006, it was a record breaking defense. Shanahan was able to acquire talent to make this happen, as well as coaches. This does not mean that they weren't vulnerable to certain teams or styles of attack, because they were. They also had a tendency to fade, but overall it was a good defense. It was the backbone of the team. It was the main engine that drove an AFCCG appearance. This was the core of that team. Our workmanline "No Mistake Jake" offense merely supplemented it.

I've never understood this whole concept that "Shanahan doesn't know anything about defense". That is the most absurd proposition, ever. One cannot be an offensive mastermind without intricately knowing defensive schemes, otherwise you would not be able to properly diagnose the strengths and weaknesses of a scheme and its personnel, or know how to attack it. Shanahan's offensive schemes have been widely successful against all the main families of defensive systems, thus it necessarily follows that he knows defense very well.

He made mistakes finding FA personnel to fit his various defenses. I don't agree that he made a parade of huge busts in the draft in that area in recent times. As Rev has already pointed out, we've devoted a large portion of our picks lately to the offense. Among the defensive selections that we've made in recent time, the record has not been that bad. We were not able to see what Carlton Powell was made of this year, although that wasn't the fault of the staff. Larsen looked fairly promising at MLB. Do you object to that selection? Despite being a 7th rounder, Barrett showed some promise. That certainly cannot be called a bad pick, so far. It is true that in the 2007 draft, there were very clear misses at the top with Moss and Crowder, but Thomas appears to be a solid (and growing) starter. Dumervil also cannot be called a bad pick. He's not a well rounded starter, but he's a quality pass rusher and certainly constitutes excellent value for a 4th round pick. Darrent Williams was an instant starter here and Foxworth was a decent nickel corner. You would be correct to criticize Paymah as more or less worthless. DJ Williams is a top flight starter. Denver did waste a pick in that draft on Jeremy LeSueur, however. On the whole, this record in the last four years does not look that bad at all from a drafting perspective. It is not as successful as the other side of the ball, but it is not a bad record.

This suggests merely that more picks should be devoted to that side of the ball, since we are at least decent in drafting defense recently, if not spectacular. And that is what we were going to do with Shanny. And that's still what we're going to do. Ofcourse we need a back and maybe another interior lineman, but there was a consensus, shared by Shanahan, that the lion's share of this upcoming draft was going to be devoted to the defense.

If you believe, as I do, that our defensive drafting lately has been decent, and if you believe, as Bowlen and most of this forum does, that the Goodmans are one of the main reasons for that, there is little justification to remove Shanahan as coach, when Goodman will be retained to cover the draft and when Shanahan is in agreement that the picks should be used on defense, anyway. There's really no rationale. You can't say he doesn't know defense, you can't say we can't draft defense, you can't say he's never built a good defense.

You really can't say anything. All you have is a general feeling of malaise since we've been disappointing recently and you want to take it out on him because fans like the idea of instant gratification and there's always an attractive if not always well thought out surface appeal of "canning the coach" in tough times. That IS understandable. These are basic human impulses. I don't agree that they are logical, but they are there. But once you get into specific rationales to remove him, that's where the arguments in favor of his removal begin to seriously strain even the outer boundaries of credulity.

gunns
01-08-2009, 12:36 AM
But that isn't true. I'm not sure why you are dismissing an average. We realize that the last few years were pretty bad, but the question presented is whether Shanahan has been able to build periods of good defenses. The answer is yes. That he has had a rough patch recently doesn't change that.


For so long we've gone on what Shanahan did early on. I said that we all know what he did early on. But he hasn't lately and it was getting worse. I think the question intended can Shanahan field a 2000's defense, that's how I took it. And stats don't tell the whole story. The defensive players that have been drafted by Shanahan, not necessarily counting this year as they haven't had a chance, have been bad to ok. Out of about 40 defensive players drafted by Shanahan, only about 4 have been solid contributors. He did most of that with free agency, by picking quality players that weren't necessarily starters from teams that had depth. That isn't as easy today.

Rock Chalk
01-08-2009, 12:50 AM
But that isn't true. I'm not sure why you are dismissing an average. We realize that the last few years were pretty bad, but the question presented is whether Shanahan has been able to build periods of good defenses. The answer is yes. That he has had a rough patch recently doesn't change that.

You dismiss an average when the players are no longer there. Prior to 3 years ago we have very few remaining players on the team. The remaining players on the team are supposed to be great (Champ, DJ hahahaha yeah right, ****ing moron). The new players are all either drafted by the Goodmans OR picked by Shanahan, either way not a good sign. The fact that he was sticking by the worst defensive coordinator in Bronco history says it all.

We had a very good defense not too long ago under Coyer, considering that we had very little pass rush. From 2003 through the first half of 2006, we had a rather good defense. Well above average. For a time in 2006, it was a record breaking defense. Shanahan was able to acquire talent to make this happen, as well as coaches. This does not mean that they weren't vulnerable to certain teams or styles of attack, because they were. They also had a tendency to fade, but overall it was a good defense. It was the backbone of the team. It was the main engine that drove an AFCCG appearance. This was the core of that team. Our workmanline "No Mistake Jake" offense merely supplemented it.

Coyer's defense was a paper tiger, but more importantly under Coyer we had a ****LOAD better players. Al Wilson, a young Ian Gold, a young and manageable idiot DJ Williams who Al could keep in check, a younger Champ bailey, a rejuvenated John Lynch, a head hunting Nick Ferguson, a line that featured guys that knew how to play football even if they were unremarkable. Id take those players EVERY DAY of the week over any of the **** we put on the field this year including Woodyard who was BY FAR our best linebacker.

I've never understood this whole concept that "Shanahan doesn't know anything about defense". That is the most absurd proposition, ever. One cannot be an offensive mastermind without intricately knowing defensive schemes, otherwise you would not be able to properly diagnose the strengths and weaknesses of a scheme and its personnel, or know how to attack it. Shanahan's offensive schemes have been widely successful against all the main families of defensive systems, thus it necessarily follows that he knows defense very well.

Most absurd proposition ever?

Here's a paraphrase that seems to indicate differently: "Bob Slowik will be back next year".


He made mistakes finding FA personnel to fit his various defenses. I don't agree that he made a parade of huge busts in the draft in that area in recent times. As Rev has already pointed out, we've devoted a large portion of our picks lately to the offense. Among the defensive selections that we've made in recent time, the record has not been that bad. We were not able to see what Carlton Powell was made of this year, although that wasn't the fault of the staff. Larsen looked fairly promising at MLB. Do you object to that selection? Despite being a 7th rounder, Barrett showed some promise. That certainly cannot be called a bad pick, so far. It is true that in the 2007 draft, there were very clear misses at the top with Moss and Crowder, but Thomas appears to be a solid (and growing) starter. Dumervil also cannot be called a bad pick. He's not a well rounded starter, but he's a quality pass rusher and certainly constitutes excellent value for a 4th round pick. Darrent Williams was an instant starter here and Foxworth was a decent nickel corner. You would be correct to criticize Paymah as more or less worthless. DJ Williams is a top flight starter. Denver did waste a pick in that draft on Jeremy LeSueur, however. On the whole, this record in the last four years does not look that bad at all from a drafting perspective. It is not as successful as the other side of the ball, but it is not a bad record.

DJ Williams is not a top flight starter. At best he is an above average LB but really needs a smart guy in the middle to tell him what not to **** up.

D Will rocked, I loved the guy and have nothign bad to say but Foxworth was worthless and Paymah got replaced by a rookie from the Practice Squad. Whats that tell you? His defensive drafting has been horrendous, that or Sundquist or the Goodman's whoever was in charge has been so far off in so many picks defensively that is why were are in the position we are in right ****ing now.

This suggests merely that more picks should be devoted to that side of the ball, since we are at least decent in drafting defense recently, if not spectacular. And that is what we were going to do with Shanny. And that's still what we're going to do. Ofcourse we need a back and maybe another interior lineman, but there was a consensus, shared by Shanahan, that the lion's share of this upcoming draft was going to be devoted to the defense.

With Shanahan, we would never devote enough picks enough years in a row to fix the defense. THAT is one of the reasons he was fired.

If you believe, as I do, that our defensive drafting lately has been decent, and if you believe, as Bowlen and most of this forum does, that the Goodmans are one of the main reasons for that, there is little justification to remove Shanahan as coach, when Goodman will be retained to cover the draft and when Shanahan is in agreement that the picks should be used on defense, anyway. There's really no rationale. You can't say he doesn't know defense, you can't say we can't draft defense, you can't say he's never built a good defense.

Offensive drafting was never Shanny's problem dude. No one will argue that. Offensively the guy is a genius. Defensively he is one of the worst in the league.

You really can't say anything. All you have is a general feeling of malaise since we've been disappointing recently and you want to take it out on him because fans like the idea of instant gratification and there's always an attractive if not always well thought out surface appeal of "canning the coach" in tough times. That IS understandable. These are basic human impulses. I don't agree that they are logical, but they are there. But once you get into specific rationales to remove him, that's where the arguments in favor of his removal begin to seriously strain even the outer boundaries of credulity.

I dont want to take it out on Shanny, I wanted Bob Slowik gone. When Shanny said Slowik was going to come back and 3 straight years of missing the playoffs and a defense that had grown progressively pathetic that was it. Good riddance to Shanny. Love ya, time for you to go. Buh bye.

And the fact that you and Taco and Rev are STILL ****ing pouting about this fills me with glee. I gotta be happy about something concerning my favorite hobby and you guys are sure enough providing it.

TheReverend
01-08-2009, 05:37 AM
I sounded the alarm long before it was popular, I saw the warning signs, I saw the future, and pat bowlen kept denying the facts, until he realized that it was all over for the rat.

Its over rev, he is gone, forever from the broncos. Move on my friend, this looking back does no one any favors.

I was right about firing shanahan, thats a fact.

Wolf, you need to learn to read. The opening paragraph states that yes I've moved on and understand that he's gone. That has little to do with me thinking it was a bad decision. The post is an explanation of why, considering you can't swing a stick without hearing absurd lies about his record or what he did here. Period.

Now, I know in week 16 you were praising him and how he was a mastermind again and then within 10 days you were back to your "Fire him!" ways, but really you don't have to push your waffling attitude and lack of spine on anyone else.

I'm still a Broncos fan. I'll certainly support the new regime. I think this team is PRIMED for a quick turn around defensively and will be able to compete next season despite the schedule.

No bitching. No complaining. No trying to convince anyone of my point of view.

But all that was covered in the OP, just most of you mother****ers are too stupid to be able to read. :thumbsup:

fontaine
01-08-2009, 06:03 AM
Not quite... I just have the balls to stand up for what I believe in.

Yes we know, we get it, you didn't like the firing, we've heard the same broken record playing over and over and over again.

;D

TheReverend
01-08-2009, 06:14 AM
Yes we know, we get it, you didn't like the firing, we've heard the same broken record playing over and over and over again.

;D

So you opened the thread why?

I'm pretty sure the title is in pretty comprehensive detail.
:rofl:

mr007
01-08-2009, 06:15 AM
Rev,

I agree with most of your posts here, but I'm with some of the initial crew that thought it was time for a change.

There is no arguing on the amount of talent we have on the offensive side of the field. We've had some great drafting that includes all the people you mentioned in the OP.

Without going into the obvious D problems we've had over the past few years, one of my main concerns with Shanny has been the play calling over the past couple of seasons. There have been way too many times to count plays where I'm like what in the F was that call.

I'm on the wall of whether Shanny would have been to turn it around or not, but we've gone through too many DCs, the previous 2 who really should not be calling defensive plays for any team in the NFL. As much of a supporter I used to be, I think it's time for change and we'll see what happens next year.

TheReverend
01-08-2009, 06:23 AM
Rev,

I agree with most of your posts here, but I'm with some of the initial crew that thought it was time for a change.

There is no arguing on the amount of talent we have on the offensive side of the field. We've had some great drafting that includes all the people you mentioned in the OP.

Without going into the obvious D problems we've had over the past few years, one of my main concerns with Shanny has been the play calling over the past couple of seasons. There have been way too many times to count plays where I'm like what in the F was that call.

I'm on the wall of whether Shanny would have been to turn it around or not, but we've gone through too many DCs, the previous 2 who really should not be calling defensive plays for any team in the NFL. As much of a supporter I used to be, I think it's time for change and we'll see what happens next year.

That's fine, dude. This thread isn't intended to change your mind at all, just to explain mine and clarify some GROSS exaggerrations and outright lies flying around the Mane.

As for your post, it's a good one. I certainly can't say I agreed with every call. There was one game where nearly every 3rd and LONGGGGGGG was a screen play with Selvin ****ing young. I was going nuts.

Of course, we do KNOW it was Bates calling the actual plays and he's one of the top three guys I hope stay on.

TheReverend
08-14-2009, 09:57 PM
bump #1 :)

SureShot
08-14-2009, 10:12 PM
bump #1 :)

C'mon Rev wait until McD breaks out the hoodie. I will expect an apology!

OBF1
08-14-2009, 11:13 PM
I think it was a great decision getting rid of shanny. His time had come and it had run its course. He lost his mile high mojo, way too many bad choices draft wise as well as free agent. Hecould not get the team to play winning football any longer.

Get over it already

DBroncos4life
08-14-2009, 11:19 PM
you don't fire a coach like mike and walk away with a good year.

Atlas
08-14-2009, 11:19 PM
I have always said Shanny deserved another two years. The offense was great. People talk about 16th in scoring, that is because Denver had such a young offense red zone scoring is the last thing a young doiminant offense will learn. If kept intact that offense would have been top 10 in scoring this year. If Shanny would have stayed and traded Cuter I would have had no problem with it...... McDoofus is just another arrogant prick that wanted to turn Denver into N.E. Well, what was wrong with Denver being Denver?

It's only one game, so the jury is still out but no one can convince me Denver is better off without Shanahan.

baja
08-14-2009, 11:23 PM
How did jay do tonight?

Rock Chalk
08-14-2009, 11:23 PM
You missed this part, huh?

"Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind"

I know it's hard to see, right at the very beginning of the ****ing post.

I am curious then, what is the point of this thread Rev?
If it isn't intended to change anyone's mind and you claim that you are over it what is the point?
All it really sounds like is whining and sour grapes.

ScottXray
08-14-2009, 11:29 PM
I think it was a great decision getting rid of shanny. His time had come and it had run its course. He lost his mile high mojo, way too many bad choices draft wise as well as free agent. Hecould not get the team to play winning football any longer.

Get over it already

Seconded! And I move we DON'T put it to a vote, a poll, or anything else.
He is gone , for GOOD reasons. Wishing for otherwise is like trying to catch a fart and paint it green, and is about as constructive.

McD is the coach now....and he will be for the next 2 -3 years at least.
Orton is the QB until McD says he's not, and nothing we post on this board is going to change it. I don't think McD is blind, and he won't put up with that kind of play...he'll either fix it or sit that guy down.

the good news is its Pre-season, and its not going to count for at least 3 more weeks. And the Starting D looks much better. A ways to go, but better.



Give it some more time

DBroncos4life
08-14-2009, 11:30 PM
I think Mike could make Orton a winning QB.

jhns
08-14-2009, 11:32 PM
"The offense sucks!"

-Absolutely false. #2 in the NFL, and a whopping 6.2 yards per play. That's extremely impressive by any standard. More impressive when you contrast it with the team's time of possession ranked 25th in the NFL.

Mediator, a great poster even threw this one at me: "Yeah, but we're only 16th in scoring"

-Which is silly because he knows better. Short fields are what puts points on the board and Denver was last in the league in take aways by a large margin. The top scoring teams are a very good blend of the top offensive rankings and top takeaways.

The next poster commenting on the offense even said that we weren't good on third down versus Jake Plummer

-2008's Broncos offense had a #2 in the NFL outstanding 3rd down conversion rate of 48%. That's DYNAMIC. In Jake Plummer's most efficient 3rd down season in Denver he had a 36% rate conversion rate.


16th in scoring is a team stat. If you take out 6 points for every defensive and special teams TD by all teams, we are 11th in scoring. I don't know what it is with the extra points taken out. We also had a crappy kicker and special teams. We make 2 more field goals and we are the 9th place scoring offense. We had the 32nd ranked starting field position and our offense drove further per drive than any other offense in the league. That is with an offense of rookie-3rd year guys.

I have to laugh at people that say it wasn't good or really needed fixed. It needed experience and a durable RB. Who can forget that we won half our games with this teams worst ever defense. I'm not sure how you can't think that says something about the offense.

That all said, I don't mind Shanahan going. I would love for him to have stayed but I also could see that he was having problems with the defense. I think this is actually good for his career. We could use some change, to bad we didn't make the right changes.

KevinJames
08-14-2009, 11:32 PM
Naturally, I can't speak for everyone that agrees with me on this, but I'm going to anyways. Yes, we understand the move is done and have moved on, but no, that doesn't mean we agree with it. No, this thread is not intended to change your own mind. Yes, we will be behind the next regime and no we will not pull any "I told you so" cards. We're BRONCO fans first, after all. Now, I'll highlight to the best of my ability, why I believe the Shanahan move was a bad idea. I'll also bring up the arguments that have been posed at me for why he should have been fired and give explanations to those.

So please, before posting any stupid, disparaging comments about Shanahan or the offense of how defense sucks etc, just read through this quick post and it may very well have already posed a counter argument that might even make your end of the discussion more intelligent.

Without further ado...
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"The offense sucks!"

-Absolutely false. #2 in the NFL, and a whopping 6.2 yards per play. That's extremely impressive by any standard. More impressive when you contrast it with the team's time of possession ranked 25th in the NFL.

Mediator, a great poster even threw this one at me: "Yeah, but we're only 16th in scoring"

-Which is silly because he knows better. Short fields are what puts points on the board and Denver was last in the league in take aways by a large margin. The top scoring teams are a very good blend of the top offensive rankings and top takeaways.

The next poster commenting on the offense even said that we weren't good on third down versus Jake Plummer

-2008's Broncos offense had a #2 in the NFL outstanding 3rd down conversion rate of 48%. That's DYNAMIC. In Jake Plummer's most efficient 3rd down season in Denver he had a 36% rate conversion rate.

Here's a popular one: "Shanahan can't field a good defense!"

-Actually, not remotely true. Shanahan's average defensive ranking is 11. That's very, very good... especially over a 14 year span.

"The defense sucks. We need a defensively minded coach!"

-Then maybe you'll find this interesting. Here's the best defensive head coaches in the NFL (our modern HoF candidates) and their career defensive rankings. Bill Belicek (NE only) comes in at a respectable 14. Tony Dungy (IND only) ties Bill at a solid 14 (edging him with decimals). Jeff Fischer (over that SAME 14 year span) is on the verge of being below average with 16 (might even be below average if you weight the years he coached pre-expansion). For those that might think this comparison is bull **** or skewed: Bill Cowher, on the other hand, proved to be dynamite with a career average of SIX! Also important to note, his best seasons WERE with Dick Lebeau as well, but still strong even without him, and hiring a HoF DC shouldn't be held against him (Disclaimer: I don't approve of a Bill Cowher signing)

"One playoff win in a decade"

-This IS a decent argument. During this decade, the AFC HAS been the dominant conference. The only coaches to have gone as far without Tom Brady or Peyton Manning were Bill Cowher (7 play off wins, 2 AFFCG appearances, 1 SB win), Brian Billick (5 play off wins, 1 SB win), Fischer (5 play off wins, 1 SB appearance, 0 play off wins in a longgggggg time) and recently Norval (2 play off wins, 1 AFCCG appearance)

For those that are curious: Dungy has posted 7 play off wins, 1 AFCCG appearance, and 1 SB win. Belicek has won 14 ****in play off games, 3 Superbowls, 1 AFCCG appearance, 1 SB appearance.

"Well Mike built this mess"

-True, but it's also widely known that he heavily relies on his staff, despite no official "GM". Reference the improvements in the drafts since his exit.

"We got blown out in the AFCCG"

-Yes. Which lead to a ballsy move in scrapping the team. Players need to execute and many were in place for game changing plays. Champ had a pick bounce off his hands (excusable considering the shoulder harness). Nick Ferguson nearly got hit in the helmet wide open. And, naturally, the offense showed it didn't have the firepower. So, instead of making the safe move and beefing the defense with stacked draft picks, he went for something his always competitive record never lent him to, a franchise QB. Which leads us to...

"The defense has sucked the past 2 years"

-Yes it has. I'm 100% sure everyone's aware of this. Al Wilson's injury hurt severely and it's hardly something you can see coming or plan for. The FA market has been bare on the defensive side of the ball, and the few players who have even been moderately above average at need spots for Denver have been paid gaudy amounts of money (reference Gibril Wilson and Tommy Kelly in Oakland).

"Okay, why not recently drafting defensive talent?"

-If you just got a franchise quarterback, you want to put all the tools around him to succeed. Three years of draft picks

Cutler, Scheffler, Marshall, Dumerville, Hixon, Kuper, Eslinger, Myers, Moss, Crowder, Harris, Thomas, Clady, Royal, Lichtensteiger, Williams, Torain, Powell, Larsen, Barrett, Hillis.

That's 21 picks, 67% to the offensive side of the ball. Of the other 33% only 2 were picked before round 4, and one rookie was on the IR all season at a need position.

"He should've drafted more on defense early"

-Then who would you like to give up? Cutler? Clady? Royal? Scheffler?

"He busted on Moss and Crowder"

-Maybe. It certainly doesn't look good for them, right NOW. Regardless, it's been pretty obvious that the last three drafts were on the Goodmans. That was confirmed at the press conference when Mike gave credit to them (not scapegoating because those last three drafts were brilliant on the whole), and they still have their jobs, but are every bit as responsible for the state of the D.

"Then what about the defense going forward? We need someone who can fix it!"

-Well, I think having a career defensive ranking better than Hall of Fame "defensive minds" like Belicek, Dungy and Fischer shows he's capable of fielding a defense. We have more a ****load of cap room in a FA period that's richer on D than any I can remember. We also have a ****load of draft picks with an offense that's already loaded. The situation is ripe for a FAST turnaround for the defense.

"Travis Henry. Javon Walker"

-Javon Walker was a great player here until his final knee injury that required microfracture surgery and destroyed his career. He also did some good damage to Oak's cap on the way out !Booya!

-Travis Henry was a DOMINANT player the prior year in Tenn and a sought after FA. Anyone that claims they knew he'd have the dozen injuries the following season, pop the drug test, and father 100 kids before the signing is full of ****.

That might just be everything, though I'm sure someone will have plenty to say about it. Feel free. This wasn't to change your mind. Just to explain our position.

Lastly, if you think myself, Taco, SoCal, Sureshot, ColonelBeef and a few others are irritating because we share this belief, keep in mind it's not nearly as irritating as the sheer volume of weasely, follow the crowd, traitors that many of you have turned out to be as evidenced by the following PUBLIC polls.

First poll 12-22
81% Mike stays 19% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75257

Second poll (day after charger game, so I can understand a few turning) 12-29
72% Mike stays 28% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75465

Third poll (Day of firing-AFTER firing) 12-30
44% Mike stays 56% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75595

Final poll 1-5
39% Mike stays 61% Mike out
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?t=75855

So, from the end of the season (after Charger game), 33% of Shanahan supporters have jumped shipped for no other reason than Pat Bowlen saying "I have terminated Mike Shanahan"

The end.

S T F U threads like this should be locked IMO

whats done is done its in the past you can cry and cry about how you wish we didn't fire Mike.........but you know what its done

so stfu

RaiderH8r
08-14-2009, 11:48 PM
Hmmm... long initial post, almost too long, but a change was needed. I grew tired of the mediocrity.

Thought bottom feeding might be a nice change of pace?

SureShot
08-14-2009, 11:49 PM
S T F U threads like this should be locked IMO

whats done is done its in the past you can cry and cry about how you wish we didn't fire Mike.........but you know what its done

so stfu

Yes I agree with the noob with only 50 posts and has only been here a month stfu Rev. Lock this ****!LOL

KevinJames
08-14-2009, 11:50 PM
Go to denverbroncos.com and they have a sub-forum there where you can't say anything bad about Denver. I think you'll like it there.

http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=85659

Go to chicagobears.com we all know you want to make the jump there and be with your lover :wave:

Yes I agree with the noob with only 50 posts and has only been here a month stfu Rev. Lock this ****!LOL

might have been registered for one month but I been viewing the mane since we actually had a good defense.

it doesn't take a genius to figure out Rev is an idiot

DBroncos4life
08-14-2009, 11:53 PM
Go to chicagobears.com we all know you want to make the jump there and be with your lover :wave:



might have been registered for one month but I been viewing the mane since we actually had a good defense.

it doesn't take a genius to figure out Rev is an idiot

He was on this board way before your bitch as ever was.

SureShot
08-14-2009, 11:53 PM
Go to chicagobears.com we all know you want to make the jump there and be with your lover :wave:



might have been registered for one month but I been viewing the mane since we actually had a good defense.

it doesn't take a genius to figure out Rev is an idiot


My advice is to keep lurking. Come back when we have a defense again, luckily for us it will be a long time until then.

AZBroncomaniac
08-14-2009, 11:57 PM
Go to chicagobears.com we all know you want to make the jump there and be with your lover :wave:



might have been registered for one month but I been viewing the mane since we actually had a good defense.

it doesn't take a genius to figure out Rev is an idiot

Apparently you don't need to be smart by coming to the conclusion that Rev is an idiot after all these years of reading his posts. If I can see you're a fu***** moron after reading only two of yours, what does that make me?

jutang
08-15-2009, 12:00 AM
What worries me is that McDaniels will stick with Orton longer than most QBs, assuming Orton keeps up this pathetic display. Trading Cutler for Orton was McD's call and his way of showing that Cassell was a product of his coaching. Giving up on Orton would be a big blow to McD's (& Bowlen's) ego... and suggesting that imitating the patriot's system alone can't lead to great success.

Don Flamenco
08-15-2009, 12:01 AM
Lamont Jordan

DBroncos4life
08-15-2009, 12:06 AM
Lamont Jordan

yeah I hear he can catch the football thank god we have him to pound the D for no yards and not pick up tatum Bell who can run a bunch of times for no yards but break off a run longer then one yard.

Don Flamenco
08-15-2009, 12:11 AM
Dude, didn't you hear? Tatum Bell carried Ray Lewis for 10 yards!

DBroncos4life
08-15-2009, 12:17 AM
Dude, didn't you hear? Tatum Bell carried Ray Lewis for 10 yards!

Jordan couldn't even carry a Ray lewis football card to the trash can.

KevinJames
08-15-2009, 12:22 AM
He was on this board way before your b**** as ever was.
Apparently you don't need to be smart by coming to the conclusion that Rev is an idiot after all these years of reading his posts. If I can see you're a ******* moron after reading only two of yours, what does that make me?

Damn Rev you got a lot of people hanging off your sack, got people attacking me for questioning you lmao wow what did you do that was so special?

kamakazi_kal
08-15-2009, 12:36 AM
I think Mike could make Orton a winning QB.

:rofl: what a dick.... ha ha ha..

Hulamau
08-15-2009, 12:43 AM
Well not the way anyone, ... particularly Orton ... wanted it to start but its the first freaking PS game with a new team and new system and there were some positives from the game as well. First team defense held its own quite nicely against the SF first team O. And with Marshall back soon ( hopefully) we have a great WR corp with McKinley locking up a spot on the roster tonight.

The one concern I have now is with Moreno's knee and pray its just a knee tweak and nothing significant.

This is a process and with all these changes its going to take a while to get it all together. Reminds me of Plummer's first Denver regular season game against Cincinnati in Cincy. Jake threw three picks and everyone wanted his head immediately in typical myopic knee jerk fanboy reactions but he settled down and Plummer rebounded pretty well after that rough start. I suspect Orton will do the same in the coming weeks.

Tonight, he did move the ball well that first drive and though he would like to have that ball back in the end zone, it was very a good play by Clement's changing his direction and momentum and fading back onto Graham at the last second. The moment Orton threw it, Clements was blocked from view and moving forward toward the goal line from the middle of the end zone and Graham appeared momentarily open.

Nevertheless, Orton has to be aware of where the DBs are and not throw that one.
The Dry Bly pick was tight overage by Bly and Orton never should have thrown that one. and the third pick was a good play, just not enough air under the ball and a great play by the SF corner.

Can imagine Orton may have tightened up a bit after the first INT in the enzone and certainly after the second ... but only if this becomes a habit over the next number of games does it become an issue. For now, its just more to work on with timing and reading for the next month. Orton didn't have a history of a lot of INTs and careless throws in Chicago so all the wrist slashers put away your knives for a while.

This was the first game for everyone ...coaches, a ton of new players, new system etc. And as some of us have harped on many times this summer, the key to not having a melt down and a case of hemorrhoids this year is to realize we are likely to have some real adjustment and growing pains early in the first part of the season.

The key is how everyone responds and gets it together over these next two months. If we improve and move forward good things will happen. If Orton continues to throw too many picks he'll be replaced and QB will be our top priority in 2010. For now just take it easy and strap in for the ride.

Kenny McKinley is going to be a player!

SureShot
08-15-2009, 12:45 AM
Well not the way anyone, ... particularly Orton ... wanted it to start but its the first freaking PS game with a new team and new system and there were some positives from the game as wel

You realize we game planned for over a week right?

DBroncos4life
08-15-2009, 12:45 AM
:rofl: what a dick.... ha ha ha..

I like Orton. This sucks

TheReverend
08-15-2009, 08:38 AM
I am curious then, what is the point of this thread Rev?
If it isn't intended to change anyone's mind and you claim that you are over it what is the point?
All it really sounds like is whining and sour grapes.

Because I've gotta get the enjoyment I usually get from watching football from somewhere Alec. You should know this.

baja
08-15-2009, 09:02 AM
Well not the way anyone, ... particularly Orton ... wanted it to start but its the first freaking PS game with a new team and new system and there were some positives from the game as well. First team defense held its own quite nicely against the SF first team O. And with Marshall back soon ( hopefully) we have a great WR corp with McKinley locking up a spot on the roster tonight.

The one concern I have now is with Moreno's knee and pray its just a knee tweak and nothing significant.

This is a process and with all these changes its going to take a while to get it all together. Reminds me of Plummer's first Denver regular season game against Cincinnati in Cincy. Jake threw three picks and everyone wanted his head immediately in typical myopic knee jerk fanboy reactions but he settled down and Plummer rebounded pretty well after that rough start. I suspect Orton will do the same in the coming weeks.

Tonight, he did move the ball well that first drive and though he would like to have that ball back in the end zone, it was very a good play by Clement's changing his direction and momentum and fading back onto Graham at the last second. The moment Orton threw it, Clements was blocked from view and moving forward toward the goal line from the middle of the end zone and Graham appeared momentarily open.

Nevertheless, Orton has to be aware of where the DBs are and not throw that one.
The Dry Bly pick was tight overage by Bly and Orton never should have thrown that one. and the third pick was a good play, just not enough air under the ball and a great play by the SF corner.

Can imagine Orton may have tightened up a bit after the first INT in the enzone and certainly after the second ... but only if this becomes a habit over the next number of games does it become an issue. For now, its just more to work on with timing and reading for the next month. Orton didn't have a history of a lot of INTs and careless throws in Chicago so all the wrist slashers put away your knives for a while.

This was the first game for everyone ...coaches, a ton of new players, new system etc. And as some of us have harped on many times this summer, the key to not having a melt down and a case of hemorrhoids this year is to realize we are likely to have some real adjustment and growing pains early in the first part of the season.

The key is how everyone responds and gets it together over these next two months. If we improve and move forward good things will happen. If Orton continues to throw too many picks he'll be replaced and QB will be our top priority in 2010. For now just take it easy and strap in for the ride.

Kenny McKinley is going to be a player!

great post by one of the few reasonable and knowledgeable posters left here on the romper room

baja
08-15-2009, 09:06 AM
Because I've gotta get the enjoyment I usually get from watching football from somewhere Alec. You should know this.

You can always game plan for next year's Surviver.... ha ha ha

Kaylore
08-15-2009, 09:42 AM
Lots of crappy arguing there Rev.

1. 16th in scoring. "It's bad special teams and lack of turnovers." First of all that's on Shanahan for promoting Slowick. Second of all, you're wrong. We led the league in redzone turnovers. So in this case it was the offense imploding when it was in scoring position.

2. Bob Slowik. "But Shahanan over the body of his career has a good defensive ranking!!!!!" First you're including the Browns stats in Belichick's ranking to bias you're argument. You're also ignoring that the last three years in a row the game has gotten away from Shanahan. I don't think anyone will argue that Shanahan's body of work is excellent. Tom Landry was a great coach in his heydey. But over time management stagnates and a change is needed. The last three years in a row have been abysmal. Nothing annoys me more than people pointing to a Coach's history as an argument for why he needs to stay. I would love 1997 Shanahan. 2008 Shanahan was given to nepotism and personal bias and allowed for a soft team with under-qualified position coaches who were personal friends.

3. I agree that "defensive minded head coach" doesn't necessarily mean he's the answer.

4. You agree Mike built this mess.

5. I agree with how he handled the team after the AFCCG.

I could go on, but in the last three years Mike was stale and his teams were soft and his staff was terrible. A change was needed for the Broncos and for Mike. Perhaps now he will have a little perspective.

TheReverend
08-15-2009, 09:50 AM
Lots of crappy arguing there Rev.

1. 16th in scoring. "It's bad special teams and lack of turnovers." First of all that's on Shanahan for promoting Slowick. Second of all, you're wrong. We led the league in redzone turnovers. So in this case it was the offense imploding when it was in scoring position.

2. Bob Slowik. "But Shahanan over the body of his career has a good defensive ranking!!!!!" First you're including the Browns stats in Belichick's ranking to bias you're argument. You're also ignoring that the last three years in a row the game has gotten away from Shanahan. I don't think anyone will argue that Shanahan's body of work is excellent. Tom Landry was a great coach in his heydey. But over time management stagnates and a change is needed. The last three years in a row have been abysmal. Nothing annoys me more than people pointing to a Coach's history as an argument for why he needs to stay. I would love 1997 Shanahan. 2008 Shanahan was given to nepotism and personal bias and allowed for a soft team with under-qualified position coaches who were personal friends.

3. I agree that "defensive minded head coach" doesn't necessarily mean he's the answer.

4. You agree Mike built this mess.

5. I agree with how he handled the team after the AFCCG.

I could go on, but in the last three years Mike was stale and his teams were soft and his staff was terrible. A change was needed for the Broncos and for Mike. Perhaps now he will have a little perspective.

So you agree with how he handled the team after the AFCCG but don't have the patience to see it through?

He chose to rebuild the O first. Fine, he made the defensive bed that he had to lie in and got fired for it.

But seeing the forest from the trees is important and understanding what happened. The O WAS a finished product. Here's a site that compiled the data from EVERY DRIVE FROM EVERY NFL TEAM in 2008:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/01/drive-results.html

Read up on it several times if necessary. It looks the same EVERY year, btw.

Rohirrim
08-15-2009, 09:59 AM
You forgot to add: After ten years of ineptitude, horrible defenses that were only getting worse, an institutional history of late season fades, the most pathetic injury history in the NFL during which the training regimen never changed, the greatest four-game team collapse in the history of the NFL, capped off by the most humiliating inter-conference embarrassment of all time to close the season (with many team members laughing on the sidelines), followed by a rock-solid commitment to the defense coordinator that made much of the debacle happen - we should have looked forward to another Shanahan season?

I still say in five years we look back on Mike's firing as a great move, and the dumping of that head case Cutler as an even better move.

Willynowei
08-15-2009, 10:51 AM
All i can say is that I expect Mike Shanahan to finish his career with more with significantly superbowl victories than the Denver Bronco organization

Tombstone RJ
08-15-2009, 10:54 AM
bump #1 :)

Your kidding right? Your gonna bump this thread everytime the Broncos lose? That's just assinine.

Rohirrim
08-15-2009, 11:09 AM
All i can say is that I expect Mike Shanahan to finish his career with more with significantly superbowl victories than the Denver Bronco organization

Hopefully, you'll be following him wherever he goes. :welcome:

Bronco_Beerslug
08-15-2009, 11:10 AM
All i can say is that I expect Mike Shanahan to finish his career with more with significantly superbowl victories than the Denver Bronco organizationUh, do you want to make a wager on that? ;D

SoCalBronco
08-15-2009, 12:58 PM
Uh, do you want to make a wager on that? ;D

Why would you take a bet that you've already lost from the getgo?

Three is bigger than two.

Rock Chalk
08-15-2009, 01:08 PM
Because I've gotta get the enjoyment I usually get from watching football from somewhere Alec. You should know this.

You can always go root for Chicago :welcome:

baja
08-15-2009, 01:16 PM
You forgot to add: After ten years of ineptitude, horrible defenses that were only getting worse, an institutional history of late season fades, the most pathetic injury history in the NFL during which the training regimen never changed, the greatest four-game team collapse in the history of the NFL, capped off by the most humiliating inter-conference embarrassment of all time to close the season (with many team members laughing on the sidelines), followed by a rock-solid commitment to the defense coordinator that made much of the debacle happen - we should have looked forward to another Shanahan season?

I still say in five years we look back on Mike's firing as a great move, and the dumping of that head case Cutler as an even better move.

Gotta rep that....

Bronco Yoda
08-15-2009, 01:19 PM
http://www.lifedynamix.com/articles/files/iStockSpilledMilkB.jpg

NYBronco
08-15-2009, 01:20 PM
Gotta rep that....

Couldn't say it any better.

Merlin
08-15-2009, 01:32 PM
16th in scoring is a team stat. If you take out 6 points for every defensive and special teams TD by all teams, we are 11th in scoring. I don't know what it is with the extra points taken out. We also had a crappy kicker and special teams. We make 2 more field goals and we are the 9th place scoring offense. We had the 32nd ranked starting field position and our offense drove further per drive than any other offense in the league. That is with an offense of rookie-3rd year guys.

I have to laugh at people that say it wasn't good or really needed fixed. It needed experience and a durable RB. Who can forget that we won half our games with this teams worst ever defense. I'm not sure how you can't think that says something about the offense.

That all said, I don't mind Shanahan going. I would love for him to have stayed but I also could see that he was having problems with the defense. I think this is actually good for his career. We could use some change, to bad we didn't make the right changes.
I don't usually like to use a whole quote, but this needed to be repeated. Far too many posters make inane and uninformed comments about the offence, just parroting poor analysis by others, and totally missing the forest for the trees. Nicely summarized.

Wes Mantooth
08-15-2009, 01:33 PM
What the F did everyone expect after the first preaseason game of a complete rip and replace of the team?

Relax. Also, don't be pissed when we don't go to the SB this year.

it takes time.

Rock Chalk
08-15-2009, 01:51 PM
I don't usually like to use a whole quote, but this needed to be repeated. Far too many posters make inane and uninformed comments about the offence, just parroting poor analysis by others, and totally missing the forest for the trees. Nicely summarized.

Denver was 24th in scoring "if you take out" the first three games against atrocious defenses.

That's not parroting a stat. The first 3 games of 2008 were explosions of offense. After those first three games, Denver was a BELOW AVERAGE OFFENSE.

Kaylore
08-15-2009, 01:52 PM
So you agree with how he handled the team after the AFCCG but don't have the patience to see it through?

He chose to rebuild the O first. Fine, he made the defensive bed that he had to lie in and got fired for it.

But seeing the forest from the trees is important and understanding what happened. The O WAS a finished product. Here's a site that compiled the data from EVERY DRIVE FROM EVERY NFL TEAM in 2008:

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/01/drive-results.html

Read up on it several times if necessary. It looks the same EVERY year, btw.
I'll be more clear. I agree with him drafting Cutler. I think the AFCG showed Plummer was as good as he was going to be. I don't agree with him letting Plummer play as long as he did and I don't agree with how he didn't prepare Cutler enough to take over. I think he was gun-shy because of the Brister/Griese experience. I don't agree with how he'd say at the beginning of the season he doesn't believe in rebuilding and then at the end bring out the "well we have a young guys trying to learn" excuses. Firing Coyer was what really did him in, though. Coyer told Shanahan the day before they needed better talent on the defensive line, something we all knew, and then he was fired the next day probably in no small part to Slowick butt humping him.

I especially take issue with him "rebuilding the O first." That's a lie to hide his deficiencies. He tried to fix the defense and special teams several times and to no avail because his coaching philosophy was inadequate. We throw money at Bly, trade picks for Kennedy that don't make the team, and then don't bother to do background checks on guys like Henry. This idea that he planned all along to work on the O and "once that was done he would fix the defense" is the biggest load of crap people are trying feed around here. Shanahan tried to fix the defense every year throwing money, picks and new coordinators at the thing all to no avail. Finally he lets Slowick weasel his way onto the team and cost him his job, and if he's not careful, his place in the HOF.

And I don't care about the yardage of the offense. We didn't score points when we needed to. I understand he had issues at running back. But that doesn't explain his poor personnel decisions on defense and special teams or that the team was a soft, finesse style team that frequently injured.

I'm totally convinced that if Shanahan was coaching today he would thrown a bunch of picks at players on defense that wouldn't have washed out and none of the talent we had would develop because the assistants were all on the team based not on their talents but on how much Mike liked them personally.

TheReverend
08-15-2009, 01:58 PM
I'll be more clear. I agree with him drafting Cutler. I think the AFCG showed Plummer was as good as he was going to be. I don't agree with him letting Plummer play as long as he did and I don't agree with how he didn't prepare Cutler enough to take over. I think he was gun-shy because of the Brister/Griese experience. I don't agree with how he'd say at the beginning of the season he doesn't believe in rebuilding and then at the end bring out the "well we have a young guys trying to learn" excuses. Firing Coyer was what really did him in, though. Coyer told Shanahan the day before they needed better talent on the defensive line, something we all knew, and then he was fired the next day probably in no small part to Slowick butt humping him.

I especially take issue with him "rebuilding the O first." That's a lie to hide his deficiencies. He tried to fix the defense and special teams several times and to no avail because his coaching philosophy was inadequate. We throw money at Bly, trade picks for Kennedy that don't make the team, and then don't bother to do background checks on guys like Henry. This idea that he planned all along to work on the O and "once that was done he would fix the defense" is the biggest load of crap people are trying feed around here. Shanahan tried to fix the defense every year throwing money, picks and new coordinators at the thing all to no avail. Finally he lets Slowick weasel his way onto the team and cost him his job, and if he's not careful, his place in the HOF.

And I don't care about the yardage of the offense. We didn't score points when we needed to. I understand he had issues at running back. But that doesn't explain his poor personnel decisions on defense and special teams or that the team was a soft, finesse style team that frequently injured.

I'm totally convinced that if Shanahan was coaching today he would thrown a bunch of picks at players on defense that wouldn't have washed out and none of the talent we had would develop because the assistants were all on the team based not on their talents but on how much Mike liked them personally.

Gotta run out to a party. Will address this later tonight because you know as well as I do how full of **** this particular post is.

Killericon
08-15-2009, 02:03 PM
Why We Think Firing Mike was a Bad Decision Thread

Because we went 8-8. After the AFCCG, he started to rebuild the offense, and the defense was constantly being rebuilt(His fault? Yes). In the 3 years he had to do it, he went .500. That's fine by me. Do I like Josh McDaniels as the guy to replace Shanny? Yes. Do I think we needed to replace Shanny? Absolutely not. So many other coaches, believe it or not, have gotten significantly more leeway than Shanny got. Marv Lewis comes to mind. The last three years, his team has been way worse than ours, and he kept his job.

If the reports are true, and I think we all know they are, then Bowlen didn't fire him because of job performance. He fired him because his GM ego was getting too big, and he didn't want to let Slowick go. THAT'S another story, but saying that we should've fired him because of his performance? Please.

I don't like the quick-draw way we treat coaches. Tom Landry would've been a college coordinator if he had come up in today's NFL.

rastaman
08-15-2009, 02:07 PM
If Shanny was still the coach Denver would be a top 10 scoring team this year. The reason they were 16th was because of their youth, not because of their talent or heart. The whole offense was young and ready to explode. Now it's ready to implode under the weight of a career backup and a coach that thinks he is the next coming of Jesus Christ.

Shanny didn't build this mess.... Half the players on the roster were not here last year... no, this is 100% McD's mess.

You can't blame Shanny for anything Denver does this year. This is 100% McD's team. It became his team when he traded the starting QB. All success and all the failure this year will be on the current coaches shoulders.

If Denver turns out to be good then he will be praised, If he is 4-12 like I think Denver will be then he will take ALL the blame.

Rep!

lex
08-15-2009, 02:07 PM
"Everybody's replaceable as long as you have a replacement."

--Al Davis

I hate to quote Al Davis but the truth hurts sometimes.

Merlin
08-15-2009, 02:20 PM
Denver was 24th in scoring "if you take out" the first three games against atrocious defenses.
You don't get to pick and choose what games count. Something that you neglect to point out is that Denver started to fall apart at the seams with injuries early in the season, and one could easily argue that was also a factor for the drop in production. In fact, one could argue that most of Cutler's int's. were a direct result of that problem. But I'm not going to sit here and argue that because you take what you are given, and in this case those 3 games count just as the games where Denver resembled a MASH unit.

PS Please note I was one of the posters who didn't care for Butler's/Cutler's strategy early in the season because I felt Cutler was being give far too much leeway and I felt he still needed to understand the concept of managing a game...conversely, many people at that time were hanging of his jock because of all the pretty points being scored.

Rock Chalk
08-15-2009, 02:27 PM
You don't get to pick and choose what games count. Something that you neglect to point out is that Denver started to fall apart at the seams with injuries early in the season, and one could easily argue that was also a factor for the drop in production. In fact, one could argue that most of Cutler's int's. were a direct result of that problem. But I'm not going to sit here and argue that because you take what you are given, and in this case those 3 games count just as the games where Denver resembled a MASH unit.

I dont get to pick and choose stats but you do? You can make any argument you want, but the fact is, Cutler threw a lot of picks he didnt need to because there were people WIDE ****ING OPEN on those plays. Further, this concept that injuries hurt the team is a retarded one. Denver had the most prolific rushing attack per down per situation in the league last year REGARDLESS of who was back there. The coaching (specifically Jeremy Bates) was the problem and failing to use it was the problem. They wanted Cutler to air it out and air it out he did, most notably to the wrong team at the most inopportune "Griese" times. The point about after the first three games was more of a slam against a typical Shanahan team. Start off well, then everyone adjusts and Shanahan had no ****ing answers. The team was NOT as good as advertised at scoring points because after the first three games when teams adjusted knowing we were a bunch of retards and wouldnt use the run game they just double covered Marshall and baited the idiot to throw the pick. Once teams adjusted to us, Denver's offense went into the tank.

PS Please note I was one of the posters who didn't care for Butler's/Cutler's strategy early in the season because I felt Cutler was being give far too much leeway and I felt he still needed to understand the concept of managing a game...conversely, many people at that time were hanging of his jock because of all the pretty points being scored.

I never liked teh strategy last year. Everyone and their mother knew our defense sucked balls and yet here we are pass happy and throwing the ball way too much. Going for big plays and big highlight reels when the team should have focused on short dump offs and runs to play ball control. This is why it was a mistake to bring Cutler in. Not because the kid doesnt have talent, but because Shanahan wouldnt know what to do with that talent early on KNOWING his defense was ****. He wanted to use his ****ing new shiny toy right away without regard to the team's weaknesses.

jutang
08-15-2009, 02:33 PM
I really like how McD interacts with players from the highlight clips of NFL yearbook. I can really see why Bowlen chose him during the interview process and am excited to see how he does.

What I don't like about the offseason was Shanahan was fired for his GM decisions. His coaching abilities remain top notch and is often directly responsible for pulling out a W each year (going for 2 vs SD, calling last minute TO before FGs). The most McD can do as a coach is equal Shanahan's skill, which is an unfair proposition for him.

When McD was hired, he was given a lot of leeway in GM responsibilities and led to the Cutler fiasco. In the end, McD's ability to improve the Broncos will be based on his GM skills. It's been a mixed bag so far, but if Orton really makes us wish we had Plummer or Griese back, then I"ll be one of the many fans calling for his job.

R8R H8R
08-15-2009, 02:37 PM
"Everybody's replaceable as long as you have a replacement."

--Al Davis

I hate to quote Al Davis but the truth hurts sometimes.

He should know, he's the expert at replacing coaches...over and over and over...

kmonty
08-15-2009, 02:40 PM
But over time management stagnates and a change is needed. The last three years in a row have been abysmal. Nothing annoys me more than people pointing to a Coach's history as an argument for why he needs to stay. I would love 1997 Shanahan. 2008 Shanahan was given to nepotism and personal bias and allowed for a soft team with under-qualified position coaches who were personal friends.

And nothing annoys me more than people who ignore a coach's positive history and only point out the struggles come lately. I mean GEEZ, we were .500 over the last three seasons. That's hardly "abysmal." If we went 3-13 three straight years, okay, it's time to go Mike. But we were .500. Give Mike time to right the ship, he has showed that he can. He DESERVED that chance.

And nepotism and personal bias? You're going to use that while our current rookie head coach brings in his good-ol' buddy Lonnie Paxton and hires his younger brother?

Broncos fans don't know how good they had it.

WABronco
08-15-2009, 02:41 PM
The great majority of posters here are fickle little idiots.

Quick, someone rep me.

Merlin
08-15-2009, 02:42 PM
I dont get to pick and choose stats but you do?
No, I said you don't get to remove games, just like I don't get to remove games. BTW, as you know, the rushing stats are distorted by the fact that the air attack would give soft defences for the running game. That being said, you are right about the strategy.

Don't necessarily agree with you regarding Shanny and young (or reckless) QBs, he did a great job with them in the past. My problem was that he was giving Butler too much decision making, and Butler was having too much fun with toys and not thinking about the game as a whole. I understand that Shanny was trying to groom Butler, but he should have also taught him the importance of balance (especially since Shanny understood it so well*).

*Alternatively the haters are right and Shanny just didn't care anymore, but judging by his time off this pre-season, it certainly does not look that way.

montrose
08-15-2009, 03:21 PM
I miss 1990's Shanahan, I loved that guy and wish he could've been our coach forever. 2000's Mike Shanahan I could do without.

wolf754life
08-15-2009, 04:45 PM
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~ i want my mikey mansion back

c'mon man, its over...........

rally around the new guys, its a new era, move the **** on already!

lex
08-15-2009, 04:47 PM
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~ i want my mikey mansion back

c'mon man, its over...........

rally around the new guy, its a new era, move the **** on already!



It doesnt work like that.

broncofan7
08-15-2009, 04:56 PM
The fring of Shanahan was NOT bad--the hiring of an offensive minded coach was however--especially in light of the fact that said coach laid the ground work for pissing off our franchise QB--STEVE SPAGNUOLO was interviewed and BOWLEN chose McD--of the 3 coaches that Bowlen has hired, Wade, Mike and Josh--only Shanny can be considered a success(jury still out on Josh but not looking promising)--and Bowlen already had a relationship with Mike and Wade from their days as assistants.This search was truly to find someone OUTSIDE of the Broncos organization-I have no faith in Bowlen to make ANY football related decisions--including changing our predominant color to Blue instead of Orange. For those who think that Spags would not have been the better choice--GUESS WHICH TYPE OF OFFENSE HE IS INSTALLING IN ST LOUIS? The west coast offense. But by hiring another offensive minded HC--intent upon installing his own system--Bowlen knocked down the first domino in what will be the worst few seasons since he owned the team--welcome to not just mediocrity PAT BOWLEN--but welcome to chronic losing seasons. My the Season ticket holders voice their displeasure loud and clear this year...........Spagnuolo was the BEST choice--a defensive minded HC the ONLY choice---and Bowlen failed us miserably.

rastaman
08-15-2009, 05:08 PM
"Everybody's replaceable as long as you have a replacement."

--Al Davis

I hate to quote Al Davis but the truth hurts sometimes.

The only problem here is that Al Davis hasn't been REPLACED!

UberBroncoMan
08-15-2009, 05:09 PM
I'm ok with Shanahan being gone since it meant we'd still have Slowik (I'd rather lose Shanahan than keep that pile of **** DC).

What I'm not ok with is losing Cutler. If we just waited him out he would have had to show up, just like Marshall has. Cutler is only 26 this season... he had all the time in the world to get better mentally and mechanically with his superb physical talent.