2,211 posts done, lets talk Champ trade possiblities

[montrose]

Because Josh Bell needs to be on the field with WW! After all, Champ got abused by Josh Reed, Vincent Jackson and Antonio Gates playing on a hurt groin - just like DJ struggled on one knee and a bum shoulder. Since Bell looked "good" filling in for Champ, we should trade Champ now to get Bell on the field! Who cares that Champ and DJ were our two best players on defense before getting hurt? Sure, Josh has poor ball instincts, isn't a great tackler and struggles in the Cover-2 shell look; but WW takes god awful angles, can't scrape and has horrible influence steps too... and we need to have him starting at WLB! We shouldn't hold the fact that DJ and Champ are better players than WW and Bell against them, I mean Bell and WW had some exciting plays while filling in! And Champ and DJ struggled coming off major injuries too early, that means we need to make a move! So what can we get for Champ? Maybe a 4th? Anything to get Bell on the field with WW and get Champ and DJ out of here!

[Hotrod]

I could not agree more. Send BMarsh along also.

[bowtown]

Because Josh Bell needs to be on the field with WW! After all, Champ got abused by Josh Reed, Vincent Jackson and Antonio Gates playing on a hurt groin - just like DJ struggled on one knee and a bum shoulder. Since Bell looked "good" filling in for Champ, we should trade Champ now to get Bell on the field! Who cares that Champ and DJ were our two best players on defense before getting hurt? Sure, Josh has poor ball instincts, isn't a great tackler and struggles in the Cover-2 shell look; but WW takes god awful angles, can't scrape and has horrible influence steps too... and we need to have him starting at WLB! We shouldn't hold the fact that DJ and Champ are better players than WW and Bell against them, I mean Bell and WW had some exciting plays while filling in! And Champ and DJ struggled coming off major injuries too early, that means we need to make a move! So what can we get for Champ? Maybe a 4th? Anything to get Bell on the field with WW and get Champ and DJ out of here!

I could see throwing him into a deal to move up in the 2nd, that's probably all. I'm all for it though.

[NFLBRONCO]

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is an issue trading Champ so I doubt it would happen even though I like the idea.

[montrose]

I could not agree more. Send BMarsh along also.

Absolutely, I mean Chad Jackson had a 16 yard catch at one point!

[Hotrod]

Anyone else think we could get a 4th and maybe a 5th for Clady. We could get 2 players for the price of one. Besides Clady is going to demand alot of $ in a few years.

[Jens1893]

Where can we discuss Cutler trade possibilities?

[Hotrod]

Where can we discuss Cutler trade possibilities?

Unless someone like Pigpen in KC gets released I would be careful of making such a move.

[Rabb]

Where can we discuss Cutler trade possibilities?

the only logical choice is to make a new thread

also make one about your favorite pick for head coach along with a quote from a source on why they are the front runner

[lex]

Back to front.

[Grover]

Maybe it's just me, but I'm detecting a tiny little bit of sarcasm in the original post.:wiggle:

I think Champ had too much influence with Shanahan. We brought in Boss and promoted Slowik to DC because Champ was in favor of those moves. OK not the only reason obviously, but a key was Champ's happiness with those two.

For that reason alone, I'd be happy to get rid of the primadonna cornerback if we could work out a good trade.

Also, even though WW is young, he played better than an injured DJ Williams. I felt he should have started over DJ those last few games. Let's have them compete in training camp, but I would expect that DJ remain the starter at WLB next year, and Woodyard to be the backup and special teams player.

I'm hoping with a new DC that ALL our corners will play a lot better, and we get a strong Mike backer in the draft.

[theAPAOps5]

Cut him see if he clears waivers then sign him to the practice squad. Thats our best bet with Champ.

[CBF1]

2300 post rule :)

[Jens1893]

Unless someone like Pigpen in KC gets released I would be careful of making such a move.

Why take Pigpen? I think Brad Johnson might be out in Dallas and Brad Johnson has a Super Bowl ring!

[theAPAOps5]

I think you make a straight up trade with Cutler for Adam Pacman Jones. Then sign Mike Vick to a $106 million deal. This team needs character and they are the ones to bring that.

[Hotrod]

I think you make a straight up trade with Cutler for Adam Pacman Jones. Then sign Mike Vick to a $106 million deal. This team needs character and they are the ones to bring that.

Throw in a 7th and make it happen

[oubronco]

I could not agree more. Send BMarsh along also.

whats the chance we could get D Watts back? LOL

[PRBronco]

/taps sarcasm meter output screen
This can't be right! These readings are off the chart!

[TheReverend]

Thank God the OP was sarcastic because that was probably the most awful and inaccurate description I could imagine reading about Wesley.

[Beantown Bronco]

/taps sarcasm meter output screen
This can't be right! These readings are off the chart!

I'll show you a reading that's off the chart:

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[Popps]

Sorry, Montrose.... but comparing Champ to DJ is offensive to Champ. He's twice the football player Williams will ever be.

Bailey is a first-ballot hall of fame'er... Williams hasn't done ****.

Nice attempt, but way off.

[montrose]

Sorry, Montrose.... but comparing Champ to DJ is offensive to Champ. He's twice the football player Williams will ever be.

Bailey is a first-ballot hall of fame'er... Williams hasn't done ****.

I wasn't comparing DJ to Champ as much as the ridiculous notion that a UDFA who was average at best during his time on the field is better than a player who was tops in the league at that position prior to his injury - based on the logic that DJ struggled upon his return (playing on a bad knee and with a bum shoulder). The truth is that Champ looked every bit as bad as DJ did in those final games and furthermore - Josh Bell did just about as well at CB while he was starting as Wesley Woodyard did at WLB.

Again, I like Woodyard and think he has a lot of potential - but he looked the part of a project during his time on the field. Did he make some nice plays? Yes, just as Josh Bell did. But Woodyard's inability to scrape and influence got us murdered over the middle and his angles may be the worst I've ever seen from a starting WLB. If Woodyard improved those areas, and I think they will come with time, he could develop into a very good LB. But the theory that he played better than DJ Williams during his time on the field is ridiculous.

And as far as not doing ****, DJ was playing the WLB position better than Champ was the CB position this season prior to their injuries.

[McLuvin]

I wasn't comparing DJ to Champ as much as the ridiculous notion that a UDFA who was average at best during his time on the field is better than a player who was tops in the league at that position prior to his injury - based on the logic that DJ struggled upon his return (playing on a bad knee and with a bum shoulder). The truth is that Champ looked every bit as bad as DJ did in those final games and furthermore - Josh Bell did just as well at CB while he was starting as Wesley Woodyard did at WLB.

Again, I like Woodyard and think he has a lot of potential - but he looked the part of a project during his time on the field. Did he make some nice plays? Yes, just as Josh Bell did. But Woodyard's inability to scrape and influence got us murdered over the middle and his angles may be the worst I've ever seen from a starting WLB. If Woodyard improved those areas, and I think they will come with time, he could develop into a very good LB. But the theory that he played better than DJ Williams during his time on the field is ridiculous.

average at best??? dude before dj came back WW was averaging 10 tackles a game. So what the hell are you talking abotu average?

[PRBronco]

I wasn't comparing DJ to Champ as much as the ridiculous notion that a UDFA who was average at best during his time on the field is better than a player who was tops in the league at that position prior to his injury - based on the logic that DJ struggled upon his return (playing on a bad knee and with a bum shoulder). The truth is that Champ looked every bit as bad as DJ did in those final games and furthermore - Josh Bell did just as well at CB while he was starting as Wesley Woodyard did at WLB.

Again, I like Woodyard and think he has a lot of potential - but he looked the part of a project during his time on the field. Did he make some nice plays? Yes, just as Josh Bell did. But Woodyard's inability to scrape and influence got us murdered over the middle and his angles may be the worst I've ever seen from a starting WLB. If Woodyard improved those areas, and I think they will come with time, he could develop into a very good LB. But the theory that he played better than DJ Williams during his time on the field is ridiculous.

And as far as not doing ****, DJ was playing the WLB position better than Champ was the CB position this season prior to their injuries.

:-O !
/finds a good spot to sit and watch the **** start flying

[montrose]

average at best??? dude before dj came back WW was averaging 10 tackles a game. So what the hell are you talking abotu average?

His ability to play the run was above average and his ability to play the pass was below average. Woodyard was very active but his poor influences left his fellow defenders out to dry early and often. He's a project with a ton of potential, there's a reason he went undrafted.

And if we're going to use tackles as a barometer of LB performance, DJ and Webster averaged just under 10 tackles a game before being injured while Woodyard averaged under 9.

[broncosteven]

I could not agree more. Send BMarsh along also.

I say we should cut Graham and Sheff, Mustard is the total package.

[TheReverend]

His ability to play the run was above average and his ability to play the pass was below average. Woodyard was very active but his poor influences left his fellow defenders out to dry early and often. He's a project with a ton of potential, there's a reason he went undrafted.

You're absolutely high on your "analysis". There's zero substance to that what-so-ever.

As for why he went UDFA, it was his SIZE. He was looked at as a safety project because of his size and that his frame doesn't lend itself to adding weight.

[Los Broncos]

Send Cutler too, he has the beetus.

[Smiling Assassin27]

2 words: Todd Bouman.

Jay Cutler's just a poor man's Todd Bouman anyway. May as well save the cap room and get the real deal.

[montrose]

You're absolutely high on your "analysis". There's zero substance to that what-so-ever.

As for why he went UDFA, it was his SIZE. He was looked at as a safety project because of his size and that his frame doesn't lend itself to adding weight.

I'll give you an example, lets say the offense is running a basic PA pass faking run-action right. Woodyard's responsibility is to control the "B" gap. He needs to take a strong influence step with his left foot to attack the B gap - then back into coverage. Instead, Woodyard takes a step with right foot which creates a larger crease in the middle that Spencer Larsen has to account for. If Larsen can account for that misstep, that means he's playing off of his shell responsibility which sucks Marquand Manual up a bit and that extra step allows Tony Gonzalez to get position in front of Josh Bell and behind Manual for a reception.

They're really small things that will come with time. I love Woodyard to death and personally think the kid could have a ton of potential at the MLB position with a bit more size. But he's not as polished as DJ at this point in their respective careers.

[TheReverend]

I'll give you an example, lets say the offense is running a basic PA pass faking run-action right. Woodyard's responsibility is to control the "B" gap. He needs to take a strong influence step with his left foot to attack the B gap - then back into coverage. Instead, Woodyard takes a step with right foot which creates a larger crease in the middle that Spencer Larsen has to account for. If Larsen can account for that misstep, that means he's playing off of his shell responsibility which sucks Marquand Manual up a bit and that extra step allows Tony Gonzalez to get position in front of Josh Bell and behind Manual for a reception.

They're really small things that will come with time. I love Woodyard to death and personally think the kid could have a ton of potential at the MLB position with a bit more size. But he's not as polished as DJ at this point in their respective careers.

If you're going to give an example, do it properly instead of throwing what you remember from your highest level of play on the table like it's gospel in the professional game.

Go ahead and highlight a play, and we can all look at it together.

As it is, what you've said is silly. First of all, in last season's base defense (which was predominant since Champ's injury--which also covers the entire span of WWIII's playing time) the weakside linebacker's gap responsibility was "C", in which case his first read step even according to you is correct. Secondly, the only way your interpretation of his responsibility's are correct in last year's base system are if they're stacked to the strong side in an over front. Period.

As for the rest of your "analysis", as well as Larsen DID play against the run, he had significantly less PT than Wesley and to top that off, nearly zero practice time. So I love how you have him as a salty 10 year veteran that's able to immediately read play-action in one second, then in the next notice Wesley's slow into his drop, and in the next, shade his own drops over to cover for it.

Really though, other than being completely wrong, good job on the buzz words.

[McLuvin]

If you're going to give an example, do it properly instead of throwing what you remember from your highest level of play on the table like it's gospel in the professional game.

Go ahead and highlight a play, and we can all look at it together.

As it is, what you've said is silly. First of all, in last season's base defense (which was predominant since Champ's injury which also covers the entire span of WWIII's playing time) the weakside linebacker's gap responsibility was "C", in which case his first read step even according to you is correct. Secondly, the only way your interpretation of his responsibility's are correct in last year's base system are if they're stacked to the strong side in an over front. Period.

As for the rest of your "analysis", as well as Larsen DID play against the run, he had significantly less PT than Wesley and to top that off, nearly zero practice time. So I love how you have him as a salty 10 year veteran that's able to immediately read play-action in one second, then in the next notice Wesley's slow into his drop, and in the next, shade his own drops over to cover for it.

Really though, other than being completely wrong, good job on the buzz words.

owned

[montrose]

If you're going to give an example, do it properly instead of throwing what you remember from your highest level of play on the table like it's gospel in the professional game.

Go ahead and highlight a play, and we can all look at it together.

As it is, what you've said is silly. First of all, in last season's base defense (which was predominant since Champ's injury--which also covers the entire span of WWIII's playing time) the weakside linebacker's gap responsibility was "C", in which case his first read step even according to you is correct. Secondly, the only way your interpretation of his responsibility's are correct in last year's base system are if they're stacked to the strong side in an over front. Period.

As for the rest of your "analysis", as well as Larsen DID play against the run, he had significantly less PT than Wesley and to top that off, nearly zero practice time. So I love how you have him as a salty 10 year veteran that's able to immediately read play-action in one second, then in the next notice Wesley's slow into his drop, and in the next, shade his own drops over to cover for it.

Really though, other than being completely wrong, good job on the buzz words.

Rev, I completely made up the scenario. It never actually happened. I never played or coached football. I'm not trying to get my foot into the door of the NFL. I never even watched the Broncos this season. I'm secretly DJ Williams' mother, trying to defend the worst WLB in the league. I bow to your greatness. DJ sucks, trade him for a Pepsi and give WW a huge extension.

You are sun, I am dirt.
You are God, I am peasant.
You are good looking, I am ugly.
You attract women, I repel women.
You have a huge dong, I cannot find my dong.
You are Saved by the Bell, I am Saved by the Bell: The New Class.
You are John Elway, I am Bubby Brister.
You know football, I do not know football.

[theAPAOps5]

owned

Wow great addition to the debate. I mean seriously thank God you added this. :welcome:

[TheReverend]

Rev, I completely made up the scenario. It never actually happened. I never played or coached football. I'm not trying to get my foot into the door of the NFL. I never even watched the Broncos this season. I'm secretly DJ Williams' mother, trying to defend the worst WLB in the league. I bow to your greatness. DJ sucks, trade him for a Pepsi and give WW a huge extension.

You are sun, I am dirt.
You are God, I am peasant.
You are good looking, I am ugly.
You attract women, I repel women.
You have a huge dong, I cannot find my dong.
You are Saved by the Bell, I am Saved by the Bell: The New Class.
You are John Elway, I am Bubby Brister.
You know football, I do not know football.

Oh, okay, I see the approach. Really solid deflection.

...And you're actually the one suggesting we trade Woodyard, one of our best defensive players, for a pepsi, not something I said about DJ... way to project your absurd overreaction. Btw, if you ARE trying to get your foot in the NFL door you might want to work on your player evaluation skills. Our best young defensive player being worth a pepsi is just silly.

[montrose]

And you're actually the one suggesting we trade Woodyard, one of our best defensive players, for a pepsi, not something I said about DJ... way to project your absurd overreaction. Btw, if you ARE trying to get your foot in the NFL door you might want to work on your player evaluation skills. Our best young defensive player being worth a pepsi is just silly.

First off, the trade WW for a Pepsi comment was made as I was getting tired of seeing thread after thread come up regarding WW vs. DJ. At this point I'd take trading either of them so the issue would be resolved.

As far as my player evaluation skills, my evaluation of WW is that he has outstanding instincts and quickness and is a very underrated tackler. His weaknesses are dancing too much with blockers (which is actually DJ's greatest weakness as well), poor scraping footwork, incorrect angles and occasional bad influence steps. I think all of these things will come with time and I would evaluate WW as a future-starting WLB in the NFL with solid-starter ability. He'll never be a Pro Bowler but could be a cog in a strong defense. I actually think for the Broncos, they should consider moving WW to the MLB position and attempting to gain 10 lbs. or so. I believe WW"s instincts are his greatest asset and that would serve him well at the position. Seeing his weaknesses at WLB would translate to MLB as well, I'd rather he learn these nuances at a position where he could help us more.

The truth is that we could be running a 3-4 next year that could change everything. We could try moving DJ to the middle again. We could try trading either guy. I just don't know as it depends on the coaching staff. My personal opinion is that DJ is best suited to be left at the WLB position based on his play there prior to injury. I don't want to come across as thinking WW doesn't have a ton of potential - he does. In fact, I ranked him 6th of our players in their 1st or 2nd year that I've seen play or practice:

1) Clady 2) Harris 3) Royal 4) Hillis 5) Thomas 6) Woodyard 7) Alridge 8) Lichtensteiger 9) Torain 10) Polumbus 11) Barrett 12) Moss 13) Larsen 14) Bell 15) Williams 16) Crowder 17) Clemons

I think WW has a hell of a career in front of him, I just wouldn't get too excited about a few games when he had some good plays and bad.

[Hotrod]

I'd just like to add I think I might have just left someone in this thread the single longest rep in rep history.........just saying

[Bronx33]

Champ isn't getting any younger..

[TheReverend]

First off, the trade WW for a Pepsi comment was made as I was getting tired of seeing thread after thread come up regarding WW vs. DJ. At this point I'd take trading either of them so the issue would be resolved.

As far as my player evaluation skills, my evaluation of WW is that he has outstanding instincts and quickness and is a very underrated tackler. His weaknesses are dancing too much with blockers (which is actually DJ's greatest weakness as well), poor scraping footwork, incorrect angles and occasional bad influence steps. I think all of these things will come with time and I would evaluate WW as a future-starting WLB in the NFL with solid-starter ability. He'll never be a Pro Bowler but could be a cog in a strong defense. I actually think for the Broncos, they should consider moving WW to the MLB position and attempting to gain 10 lbs. or so. I believe WW"s instincts are his greatest asset and that would serve him well at the position. Seeing his weaknesses at WLB would translate to MLB as well, I'd rather he learn these nuances at a position where he could help us more.

The truth is that we could be running a 3-4 next year that could change everything. We could try moving DJ to the middle again. We could try trading either guy. I just don't know as it depends on the coaching staff. My personal opinion is that DJ is best suited to be left at the WLB position based on his play there prior to injury.

So would you say that you'd accept trading either to resolve this because there isn't a drop off with the rookie UDFA on the field?

Also, per your second paragraph, much more accurate than how you started the thread. Still very wrong in certain regards, but I think as you calm down that might shape it's way up.

The dancing comment is inaccurate. He looks fearless out there. That's what compensates for the size and makes him such a good hitter. How many good tacklers are there out there that are "dancers" when it comes to blockers?

Wesley made an absurd amount of plays on the other side of the field. Which hardly bodes well for your "takes bad angles" argument. It's also why "bad angles" are something I'll never blame DJ Williams for.

I am glad to see that his bad "influence steps" have now been downgraded to "occasional". That may very well be accurate. But crediting someone with great instincts/footwork/play recognition/fast reads are pretty much all synomymous, but I'm sure from your coaching background you're familiar with this. After all, that's why you coach it. So it's pretty contradictive.

As for having both on the field, sure. And yeah, I DO think Wesley certainly has the skill set to play Sam or Mike, and though I'm finally finished with my off-season disease where I annually fall in love with DJ's measurables, he's far from a BAD will. That being said, Mike still needs to be priority 1 at pick 12. We can't bet the farm on Wesley putting on weight and having our back up plan be DJ Williams, that's just stupid.

If it comes to straight, fair competition for the Will spot between the two, DJ WILL get beat.

[LittleFloyd]

Josh Bell will start because Dre Bly will be gone as Bly makes way too much money and he will be a salary cap victim.

[Hotrod]

Josh Bell will start because Dre Bly will be gone as Bly makes way too much money and he will be a salary cap victim.

Not saying it wont happen but we do have 30 some million in cap space. Which when added with the recent draft crops makes me think Goodman will be our GM

[TheReverend]

Josh Bell will start because Dre Bly will be gone as Bly makes way too much money and he will be a salary cap victim.

Maybe Nnamdi Asomougha starts?

Time will tell, in fact, this whole argument in thread is actually pretty stupid. The team IS better off with BOTH on the field and we'll find out how the new staff plays the situation soon enough.

[montrose]

If it comes to straight, fair competition for the Will spot between the two, DJ WILL get beat.

Rev you know I respect your opinion as much as anyone on this board, I simply disagree with you that in a straight up competition for the WLB job that WW would beat out DJ. The only way I'd see that happening is if the coaches decided to go young and wanted to move DJ. I honestly believed that DJ, back at WLB before his injury, was playing the position at as high of a level as I could ask for. He was playing awesome. I will now respond to your statements, with all due respect my friend:

So would you say that you'd accept trading either to resolve this because there isn't a drop off with the rookie UDFA on the field?

No, I do think there is a drop off with WW. I'd be willing to trade either because of posters - far less knowledgeable than you - making threads about WW needing to start that I know are based primarily on a few big plays that he had. If we didn't already have DJ, and assuming we're rebuilding the defense entirely, I'd have no problem with letting WW grow into the position. But considering we have a superior player under contract longer - I believe that's where we need to stay.

Also, per your second paragraph, much more accurate than how you started the thread. Still very wrong in certain regards, but I think as you calm down that might shape it's way up.

I'm not wound up by any means. I enjoy debating football with knowledgeable posters like you a great deal. If the Mane was made up of 5,000 Rev's supporting WW - I'd still post there and enjoy it.

The dancing comment is inaccurate. He looks fearless out there. That's what compensates for the size and makes him such a good hitter.

I disagree. I noticed several plays - generally blitzes - when WW tried to dance around his blocker. Now this could be a product of our poor LB coaching as DJ's had the same problem for years. I think WW needs to be taught to better use his hips as they get a bit stiff.

How many good tacklers are there out there that are "dancers" when it comes to blockers?

DJ Williams is one, haha.

Wesley made an absurd amount of plays on the other side of the field. Which hardly bodes well for your "takes bad angles" argument. It's also why "bad angles" are something I'll never blame DJ Williams for.

WW has good explosion and the ability to get flat, but you will notice several plays when WW runs into Haggan/Webster in addition to not getting his head across (I know you know what I'm referring to Rev) which created a few of the cutback lanes the Broncos were victimized by (and many times were lucky that the RB didn't see).

I am glad to see that his bad "influence steps" have now been downgraded to "occasional". That may very well be accurate. But crediting someone with great instincts/footwork/play recognition/fast reads are pretty much all synomymous, but I'm sure from your coaching background you're familiar with this. After all, that's why you coach it. So it's pretty contradictive.

I originally used the word bad as the instances in which I noticed WW make the mistakes generally resulted in significant plays for our opposition. I don't necessarily agree that instincts = recognition, reading and footwork. I noticed WW's superior instincts generally lent themselves in plays that were surprising (screens, 3rd down runs, broken plays) and less in situations where he was forced to think (Isos, Counters, Traps, Waggles, Key Passes, etc.). I simply think those things will come with time and coaching.

As for having both on the field, sure. And yeah, I DO think Wesley certainly has the skill set to play Sam or Mike, and though I'm finally finished with my off-season disease where I annually fall in love with DJ's measurables, he's far from a BAD will. That being said, Mike still needs to be priority 1 at pick 12. We can't bet the farm on Wesley putting on weight and having our back up plan be DJ Williams, that's just stupid.

I do agree that MLB should be a priority at MLB and wholeheartedly agree that counting on WW to pan out as our MLB is a god awful, Shanahan-esque plan. If Capers, Crennel or another 3-4 guy takes over next year I'm not sure what will happen; but if we stay in a 4-3, I'd rather DJ sticks at the WLB position that he played so very well this season while WW moves over to the MLB spot to compete with our #12 pick and some type of veteran (Webster, Haggan, Vilma, etc.) Not if, but when, WW furthers his development to where it's necessary he be on the field - I'd be all for moving one of the LB's but as we learned this year, you can never have enough depth. There's no reason to make any kind of rushed or hasty move now though.

[Killericon]

If we ran a 3-4, could DJ and WW both play ILB?

[BroncoMan4ever]

I could not agree more. Send BMarsh along also.

And Cutler, he forces passes occasionally.

[TheReverend]

Rev you know I respect your opinion as much as anyone on this board, I simply disagree with you that in a straight up competition for the WLB job that WW would beat out DJ. The only way I'd see that happening is if the coaches decided to go young and wanted to move DJ. I honestly believed that DJ, back at WLB before his injury, was playing the position at as high of a level as I could ask for. He was playing awesome. I will now respond to your statements, with all due respect my friend:



No, I do think there is a drop off with WW. I'd be willing to trade either because of posters - far less knowledgeable than you - making threads about WW needing to start that I know are based primarily on a few big plays that he had. If we didn't already have DJ, and assuming we're rebuilding the defense entirely, I'd have no problem with letting WW grow into the position. But considering we have a superior player under contract longer - I believe that's where we need to stay.



I'm not wound up by any means. I enjoy debating football with knowledgeable posters like you a great deal. If the Mane was made up of 5,000 Rev's supporting WW - I'd still post there and enjoy it.



I disagree. I noticed several plays - generally blitzes - when WW tried to dance around his blocker. Now this could be a product of our poor LB coaching as DJ's had the same problem for years. I think WW needs to be taught to better use his hips as they get a bit stiff.



DJ Williams is one, haha.



WW has good explosion and the ability to get flat, but you will notice several plays when WW runs into Haggan/Webster in addition to not getting his head across (I know you know what I'm referring to Rev) which created a few of the cutback lanes the Broncos were victimized by (and many times were lucky that the RB didn't see).



I originally used the word bad as the instances in which I noticed WW make the mistakes generally resulted in significant plays for our opposition. I don't necessarily agree that instincts = recognition, reading and footwork. I noticed WW's superior instincts generally lent themselves in plays that were surprising (screens, 3rd down runs, broken plays) and less in situations where he was forced to think (Isos, Counters, Traps, Waggles, Key Passes, etc.). I simply think those things will come with time and coaching.



I do agree that MLB should be a priority at MLB and wholeheartedly agree that counting on WW to pan out as our MLB is a god awful, Shanahan-esque plan. If Capers, Crennel or another 3-4 guy takes over next year I'm not sure what will happen; but if we stay in a 4-3, I'd rather DJ sticks at the WLB position that he played so very well this season while WW moves over to the MLB spot to compete with our #12 pick and some type of veteran (Webster, Haggan, Vilma, etc.) Not if, but when, WW furthers his development to where it's necessary he be on the field - I'd be all for moving one of the LB's but as we learned this year, you can never have enough depth. There's no reason to make any kind of rushed or hasty move now though.

Now this is just a much better post all the way around.

This obviously should've been your lead in to the thread. I think you get a much warmer response, even from those that disagree (like myself) if kick it off like this, instead of that messy, pile of **** you dropped in the OP (which I think you can honestly re-read and agree with now).

Great job on the whole this time around. Of course there are flaws in Wesley, our UDFA rookie's, game, but as you've now pointed out, they're fairly minimal. I think if you used that same dispassionate approach at evaluating DJ's play, you'd find more and on a 5th year player, but that all boils down to perspective and you're more than entitled to your opinion. Naturally, we know his week 17 game was absolutely horrid, but okay, he's injured, I'll understand if you don't want to count that against him. Maybe you consider the week 4 Kansas City game? Watch DJ in that one!

[McLuvin]

Wow great addition to the debate. I mean seriously thank God you added this. :welcome:

He summed it all up. :thumbs:

[theAPAOps5]

He summed it all up. :thumbs:

LOL yeah I guess there isn't much to add to that argument.

[Malcontent]

Bump just so it stays ahead of the guy who started the 100 post thread of the same redeeming quality....or whatever....